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Women in High Places

As President-elect Obama formally announces his national-security team later today, news reports predict that he will appoint several women to top posts. Former rival, Senator Hillary Clinton, will replace outgoing Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State; former Security Council Member and Assistant Secretary of State, Susan Rice, will be his choice for US Ambassador to the United Nations; and Arizona Governor, Janet Napolitano, will be appointed to Secretary of Homeland Security.

Meanwhile, I find myself thinking once again about the fact that, in the church, many of our wives and daughters are finding it difficult to see that the Bible is as much the friend of women as it used to be.

In earlier times, the Bible was regarded as an advocate for women. Author Rodney Stark, in his book The Rise of Christianity points out that in a Greco-Roman world where men were valued more than women, infant daughters were often aborted or allowed to die at birth. In those days early Christians were known for rescuing such infants and raising them as their own daughters.

By contrast, many 21st century societies educate our daughters and encourage them not only to consider the options of marriage and motherhood, but also to become doctors, lawyers, and presidents. In such a world, the Bible has slowly developed a reputation for being on the side of men who want to treat women as sexual property and assistants rather than as equals.

As in the case of so many political and social issues, there are scholars, and studied opinions on both sides. Some believe that the most important statement the Bible makes about gender is found in the words of the Apostle Paul when he writes that, in Christ, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).

Others argue just as emphatically that the same Apostle Paul encouraged wives to learn quietly in church (1Cor 14:34), and at home, to be submissive to their husbands, as unto the Lord (Eph 5:22). In another letter Paul adds, “I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (1Cor 11:2).

The tension between the two positions is understandable. On one side are those who believe that if God has spoken definitively on the role of women then his ways need to be regarded as more important than our own ways or preferences. On the other side are those who also hold a high view and authority of Scripture but who point out that the Bible was written to men and women in specific times and places and that the Apostle Paul himself adapted his behavior to the social order in which he found himself so as not to encumber the Gospel with arguable issues (1Cor 9:19-22).

While some cultures still enforce laws designed to protect women from the dangers and moral excesses of social equality, others make it much easier of both men and women to ask, “What if a woman chooses not to marry and have children? Or what if she does marry and has better judgment than her husband when it comes to spiritual, financial, or social issues? If she is the follower of Christ, does the Bible give her reason to defer to her husband even if he is doing something that will be to the detriment of his children or family?

Many of us don’t fault a wife for stepping up to the challenge if her husband is:
a.  Physically disabled.
b.  Diagnosed with a debilitating mental or emotional condition, or
c.  Morally entangled in an addiction that blinds him to the needs of his family.

So what has happened? Have cultural changes trumped the social order of the Bible? Or have we in some way misunderstood the intent and wisdom the Apostle Paul when he wrote,
“God is not the author of confusion but of peace…Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says” (1Cor 14:33-34).

That last comment in 1Cor 14 has me thinking about “the law”. So far I have not been able to find any statement in the Bible that directly commands women to be submissive to their husbands, until the pastoral letters of Paul and Peter.

What I do find is a general pattern of male dominance (with some notable exceptions) and system of Mosaic law that reflects the curse of Genesis 3:16.

Following the fall of our first parents into sin, the Lord announces that the curse of sin will result in weeds and thistles in the field, multiplied pain in childbirth, men ruling over women, and death. In this text, male-dominance is seen as a curse that replaces the complementary relationship of Adam and Eve prior to their sin.

As you can see, I’m still thinking this through. I admire the wisdom of heads of state who surround themselves with wise counselors. I wish the church could be just as ready to seek and respect the advice and counsel of both men and women.


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42 Responses to “Women in High Places”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    The Book of Ruth, the Book of Esther, in the Catholic Bible the Book of Judith. And may I say the “Song of Songs” Are all tesitmonies of womens faithfulness to God. And how HE used their strengths to achieve HIS purpose.

    Eve was the ” Help Meet” (proper helper) for Adam. Incomplete and lonely, God gave Adam the choice of all creation for a companion. In all of creation there were none that fulfilled and completed man. God created woman out of man to be his perfect proper helper. To complete man. As Mart pointed out, Adam did not have dominance over her they were as one flesh. Until the “fall”.

    There is a long list of women in the Bible whom God used as there are men in order to accomplish HIS goals. None more renown than The Virgin Mary. God gave over the care and nurturing of Jesus himself to this one woman.

    There is a comment from Solomon, which derides women. Yet Wisdom is referred to as, HER!

    In our little volunteer fire company here. The men and now a few women are the “firefighters”. They also have a structure, President, Chief, ect. But there is also a Ladies Auxillary. These women are the financial backbone and support group that helps put the firemen in a building, organize public support. One without the other is in trouble of not being able to exist.

    Our little government here in our community has not always had a blend of men and women in governing posistions. Though in my generation,we have. I personaly see women as people who can get things done. Not just talk about getting them done.

    Time does not allow me to comment further. So I will be back after while.

  2. chfranke says:

    Mart,
    Part of this puzzle also includes the natural function of a women as the only one of the two sexes to be able to produce off-spring. If men as well as women were able to reproduce we would have a totally different society. Would it be a more “equal” society? Given that our nature is to be king on the mountain, I doubt it. In fact, the struggle between the natural person and the spiratual person would still likely need to be fought. Our freedom of choice would still need to play itself out. We would still need the guidance of the Bible to determine right from wrong. God’s Son would still need to come and be sacrificed to demonstrate God’s love.
    And leadership would still be critized for whatever decisions he/she made because it leans too much to one particlular type of person than another. We will always find fault with the person in power. It’s our nature.
    Chuck

  3. sawaybon says:

    Very thought-provoking topic. I recently wrote a paper that explored this contentious issue, and came up with no firm conclusion on the matter. Most commentators on 1 Corinthians 14:33-34 emphasize the context of that passage, which is orderly worship. Perhaps some of the women were chatting among themselves, due to not being able to understand what was being spoken by the religious leaders, and were simply being told to be quiet. I have some friends like that who constantly whisper to each other throughout the church service. They are not focussing on what is being said, and are a distraction to others around them. They happen to be women, and someone needs says say “Shhh” to them.

    To the extreme of complete silence of women in the church, one commentator suggested that any voice of women in any form of authority or teaching should not be heard. This included women leading worship, and even the suggestion that we should not sing hymns written by Fanny Crosby, for example, since that is a form of a woman’s voice being heard in the church.

    The opposite extreme is, of course, leadership in the church, including the issue of the ordination of women. I have a sister-in-law who is an ordained minister, and I have seminary professors who are women. We have women who preach in our church, and our Pastor of Children’s Ministries is a woman. I think of numerous missionaries who are single women, serving alone on mission fields where they are clearly in positions of spiritual leadership. How do we view them in light of this apparent biblical prohibition?

    As always, a key factor is in how we interpret Scripture. Do we do so from a writer-oriented perspective, and recognize (aside from the Galatians 3:28 verse) that Paul is quite a male chauvinist, a product of his culture? Or do we do so from a text-oriented perspective? Or do we do so from a reader-oriented perspective, where we apply the principles to our own society in a culture-sensitive way, to the best of our ability?

    By the way, Galations 3:28 is about equality, not about roles. I am a man, but I consider my wife to be equal to me from God’s perspective. We have certain roles, although during this year of my full-time studies, she has taken on the role of being the bread-winner in our home.

    The language of the Bible is patriarchal, which is already a hard pill for modern feminists to swallow. Notice their efforts to make it gender-inclusive, to the extreme of rejecting God as Father and Jesus as Son. No wonder the general pattern of male dominance is repulsive to them.

    I am somewhere in the middle ground on this issue, and I’m curious to hear other perspectives on it.

  4. kaliko88 says:

    I have heard some make the comment, or argue for, women being equal to men. But I find the arguments weak, because ‘equal’ does not mean ‘same’. We are all different in our own ways, with our own strengths, talents, and skills. It works best for my husband and I when we acknowledge who has the greater skill in something and let them do it. Sometimes it is him, and sometimes it is me. We compliment each other, like puzzles pieces that fit. But still, one of us must be the decision maker, otherwise we would only argue out of our selfishness. How well it works depends on the love and respect we have for each other. Maybe it is our own shaping of tradition over time that has made the man the head of the household, but I don’t see it as a bad thing. I think it has been used badly and given some an excuse to do terrible things, but otherwise I see it as legitimate way of organization.

    It’s a subject I still contemplate, but I have found one thing so far. It isn’t the tradition that I have a problem with. It’s when someone is forced to fit in that tradition that I get testy. We should each be able to follow our own conscience in finding our ‘place’, so to speak. And I don’t think anyone should be criticized for their choice. It has taken a long time for women to be able to make that choice more freely. Unfortunately, I now find some of those women who have taken on leadership roles turning around and ridiculing those who do not choose such a role. They assume that because it is something they want, it is something everyone should want.

    For the most part, as far as I’ve been able to observe, most men have a talent for leadership, even an eagerness for it, whereas most women don’t even like it. I’ve been at my job for almost 15 years and people keep asking me why I’m not the manager yet. I tell them honestly that I wouldn’t want the job even if it was offered. Those who do want that kind of role pursue it with just as much eagerness and talent. On the other side, I am not a mother, and chose not to be. And there are those who criticize me for both choices. But the point is, it is my choice, and it’s a decision I made WITH my husband.

    I honestly don’t know if this is what God intended, but I do know that where there is true love and respect, it works. My husband respects my opinion and does not make decisions lightly or without talking with me. I let him make most of the decisions because I know he is better at it. We allow each other to use our talents the best we can. We allow the one with the most talent in certain things to make the decisions. But where we are equal in talents or abilities, or where it is a decision with large impact, he is the default decision maker. If we didn’t do it this way, our relationship would be nothing but struggles and bitterness.

    Maybe someday we’ll figure out the why’s and what’s. In the meantime, I hope it becomes less about whether someone is a man or woman or particular nationality or ethnic background, and more about actual skills and talent, and the ability to make our own choices the best we can. Really, we can only do what we think is right at the time. Which is why I pray Obama is making his choices based on actual skill and not because he’s looking for a certain ‘mix’ for his staff. And I wish everyone kept God in mind in the decision-making process.

  5. violet D says:

    My first reaction when I saw the title of today’s blog was “My, you’re opening a can of worms here, Mart”. :)
    Over the years I have struggled with this question. My first husband was an alcoholic so I had to take ‘leadership’ in the family. My second husband had Parkinson’s disease – when his condition deteriorated again I was the one who had to take leadership in the home. Neither instance was one that I chose but was in that position by necessity. I have also encountered some pastors who did not think women should be in leadership positions in the church – except in ‘women’s’ ministry. I have also worked with other pastors who were willing to work with women in whatever capacity as long as they were willing. being a part of a church ‘start’ – this was again ‘a necessity’!! At church yesterday the pastor pointed out that Matthew wrote his book for Jews and started by following Joseph’s genealogy – but finished his Gospel by noting that Jesus first appeared to women after his resurection. As a woman I would prefer men to be ‘leading’ but too often the men aren’t there – and/or willing to do so. Will follow this blog with great interest! I really appreciate the insight and differing opinions presented. God bless you all.

  6. Charis says:

    MART asked: Have cultural changes trumped the social order of the Bible? Or have we in some way misunderstood the intent and wisdom the Apostle Paul when he wrote, “God is not the author of confusion but of peace…Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says” (1Cor 14:33-34).

    We have misunderstood Paul. Just a few minutes before, he penned instructions on how a woman is to pray or prophecy (1 Cor 11:5). Paul wouldn’t contradict himself a couple minutes later in the same letter. And a few minutes after chapter 14 in chapter 16, he commends Priscilla (rather than rebuking her)

    Look what Priscilla was doing right alongside her husband. This sure sounds like she co-pastored/shepherded/discipled Apollos:

    Ac 18:26 And he [Apollos] began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

    PAUL writes:
    Ro 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
    1Co 16:19 ¶ The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house

    I think all of Paul’s words in Romans 16- right down to traditional translation choices- are enlightening regarding the position of women and the danger of enshrining belittling of women into a “doctrine”. Not only Priscilla, but numerous women co-laborers are commended right along with the men. Note that Phoebe (Rom 16:1) is a “diakonos”. This same Greek word is translated “deacon” and “minister” when used of a man but in her case her spiritual authority has been obscured by translating “diakonos” as “servant”.

    Romans 16 warns about those who would “cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned” Rom 16:17 followed by a reference to the victory over Satan which was promised in the garden “And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly” Rom 16:20 “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work” 1 Jn 3:8. Wouldn’t that include those consequences of the fall that you mentioned, Mart? In HIM we have been set free to be co-regents per Genesis 1:26-28 (a joint commission which was never retracted by God)! :)

  7. Belma Connerley says:

    Yesterday at a Church I visited here in W. Virginia they sang the song “We’ve a story to tell to the Nations”. Remember the old saying “Tell a phone, tell agraph. Tell a woman” and the truth will get out. I do believe it’s neuter gender. God calls men and women to do his work. Remember God is still in control and he is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to know Him. Jesus Christ the same Lord & Savior yesterday , today, and forever. To know Him is to love Him and to love him is to serve Him.

  8. BruceC says:

    Well, I’ll jump into this “can of worms”. We are equal in some ways and not in others. We are equally sinners; and the criteria for salvation is the same. I believe that what Paul wrote in the NT was from God; all of it. It was not his opinion based on society at the time. God has given a natural order to things; a divine natural order that produces peace. Men may be the head of the woman but that gives him no right to be abusive or power crazy. On the contrary we are to give ourselves to our wives as Christ did the church. He loves us equally. The Word says a man is to be a pastor or a deacon; not a woman. But this doesn’t mean a woman cannot be an active participant in church. I think that if we accept our God-given roles we are far more happy than if we question and rebell.
    I know many people who don’t agree with this but in society I don’t think a woman should be a cop wearing a gun in harms way or a front-line combat soldier. Sorry; I’m a traditionalist. Men are naturally protective of women and this could be a problem. Women however (my opinion) make better interrogators in rape and child abuse cases and nurses (and even MDs in many cases) than men; again my opinion. I think the biggest problem is the radical part of the women’s movement that tries to force it view on the rest of us.
    I have no problem with women serving in leadership roles in goverment either.
    Well; I just lied to myself when I meant this to be short and sweet!

  9. macsisson22 says:

    Interesting topic!

    An interesting fact was once pointed out to me by a dear missionary and Bible translator named Grace Fabian, a woman whom served with her husband in Papua New Guinea for over 30 years. She claimed in a message spoken at our church that the word for help-meet used in Genesis carried with it the connotation of ‘rescuer’.

    Being faithful as a Barean I went home and searched to find that the Hebrew word for help-meet in Genesis 2:18 & 20 is a word pronounced ay’-zer. It is used a total of 21 times in the Older Testiment including these 2 in Genesis. In all but 2 other places it is used in reference to GOD, the’One who rescues’ as in Psalms 121:1-2 “A song of ascents. I lift up my eyes to the hills – where does my HELP come from? My HELP comes from the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth.” In Ezekiel 12 and Daniel 11 it is used to indicate that those making an attempt will be unable to or without rescue.

    This gave me a new appreciation for my wife and women in general. However, as much as I believe that there is a place for women in leadership in both the church and state, I lean toward the Pastorate being reserved for the man in that Paul’s instructions to Timothy and Titus required that the pastor be a ‘one woman man’.

    Could he have intended that the pastor mearly be FAITHFUL? Sure, but I also know that men have a particular ‘thorn in the flesh’. Men are visually oriented, which makes them more easily distracted by the beauty that God gave to a women. Some call us pigs.

  10. Charis says:

    macsisson,

    Good research on “help MEET”! :)

    You said “I lean toward the Pastorate being reserved for the man in that Paul’s instructions to Timothy and Titus required that the pastor be a ‘one woman man’.

    If there is even one exception, wouldn’t we be wrong to make a rule? Paul uses the exact same expression for the qualification of deacons: “A deacon must be the husband of but one wife” 1 Tim 3:12

    However, in Romans 16 Paul commends Phoebe, a female deacon (diakonos, servant, minister): see Romans chapter 16:1 (The translation of “diakonos” in Phoebe’s case is confusing but a translation is not the God Breathed original. You can see the greek word “diakonos” at blueletterbible.org)

    Therefore “husband of one wife” (”man of one woman”) cannot mean the exclusion of women from the role in question. If it did, Paul would be contradicting himself.

    God’s Word does not contradict itself. Paul- under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit- would not contradict himself. Personally, I feel much safer and more confident with GOD’s own Word and Paul’s practice/interpretation of his own words rather than the way a church, interpretor, tradition, or commentary has taken them.

  11. poohpity says:

    Well you know I could not let this one go. Our church has been talking about this issue for a while now only to cause division which is not from the Lord.

    In my life I would love for there to be someone to help and to be the head but there isn’t physically. I have chose the Lord to be head.

    I have studied this issue extensively and have found that Paul addressed issues in the early churches where there were problems. Those from others countries before conversion and some after worshiped female gods and were lording feminism over the males so in his attempt to bring order to those churches wrote letters specific to the problems.

    It would be nice if on the elder boards women who out number men in a congregation were represented. Gosh God gave us a brain and common sense so use it.

    If God has given a woman the ability to teach then teach, to prophesy then prophesy or anything else needed to build up the body. God is the one in control yet we continue to argue over who or what He will choose to establish His will. If someone drops the ball He will use someone else. God uses what confounds the world around us, His thoughts are not our thoughts nor is His ways our ways. Actually even putting a gender on God is our way except Jesus used that as an example of the trust we need to have in God the Father.

    The whole jest of everything is a power (control) issue then again if we focus on what God intended for us to do we would not have time to argue this issue. God wants our time devoted to worshiping Him and service to those who need His hands, heart and feet. So lets stop these debates and get to work being Jesus to the world.

  12. NurturingLife says:

    Submission:
    Dominance & Leadership
    …or…
    Responsibility & Harmony

    I believe that God has well-qualified me to speak on this subject because of the suffering my children and I have endured as a result of the widespread false doctrine in the Church being taught on the topic of submission today.

    Because my Christian experience is real and I didn’t want to do anything that was contrary to the Word of God, I took the advice of many pastors. Because I listened to them, it took me over 20 years to discover the truth for myself about “submission”. By that time amazing damage had been done to our family.

    When a person writes a letter and addresses it to a specific person or group of people, is it supposed to be a law set in stone for everyone throughout history who happens to come across the letter and reads it?

    This should be considered next time we read the writings of Paul. Do we all qualify as members of the Corinthian Church?…”If the shoe fits, wear it”…as my grandmother used to say. Maybe some do qualify with their spirit of rebellion…but certainly not all.

    While God hates divorce, is divorce really the problem…or are people the problem? I’m sure God also hates to see the consequences of murder and every other sin as well. The picture looks very different if we see divorce is a consequence of sin, not the sin itself.

    It is a fact that family issues can effect society in a very devastating way. However, In God’s mercy, He created the law of divorce because of the “hardness of their hearts”.

    As a tool of mercy, divorce actually becomes a blessing to victims of abuse and persecution.

    But the Church often treats even dedicated Christian women as people who are compulsive liars, unable to control their sin nature, and void of the Holy Spirit.

    Are women really the cause of men’s problems? Should marriage problems really be addressed from the bottom up on the chain of command? Some have even suggested that if the wife just “submits” enough, that will cause the husband to be more righteous. Well, then maybe we should go farther down the chain and blame the children???

    The real question is: Does a man’s “righteousness” depend on what his wife does? Maybe we need to go back to the Garden of Eden and see if Eve really caused the fall of mankind…Some still seem to think so.

    The Church’s own false doctrine blinds them and keeps them from discerning false brethren who are creeping in, bringing confusion and mocking God’s law while having the Church’s approval on their “authority” in the marriage while getting away with their own crimes.

    In this way, a perfect environment for abusers has been created right in the Church.

    In counseling sessions the world’s psychology is used, repeating the false belief that “it takes two” to spoil a marriage. Common sense tells us that just one evil person in any group can cause a lot of trouble…unfortunately this is just one example of the many myths that are used instead of the Word of God. It seems that the Church has become unable to discern good from evil and would rather blame both parties than try to make a righteous judgment.

    Authority IS responsibility and responsibility is something very few people want…but everyone likes the idea of telling other people what to do…some like it so much that they will even “whip a willing horse” just to be able to exercise their demon of authority.

    I understand that I am putting down some very strong words here…but this is a very serious issue in the Church today and more common than most people realize.

    Having said that, my children and I are very grateful to God for having had the opportunity to learn about how deception works in a family, because what happens on a personal level also happens on a corporate level–in society and even government–anywhere people have authority over others.

    How does God’s structure of authority work? Only God has complete authority. Anything else is idolatry. A limited amount of authority is given to men and women and if the use of it violates God’s intention, it is taken away and we are to follow God rather than anyone else.

    Sometimes this means that as Christians we must remove ourselves from the association in order to freely obey God and not be guilty by association. If held captive by self-appointed “authorities” we have the right and obligation to escape and defend ourselves.

    I would rather be writing about how a real Christian marriage functions in harmony and love, but for now I sense God’s leading to share this perspective.

    Perhaps, I will have the opportunity to share what I have learned about love and harmony another time.

    I hope this will be a blessing to someone.

  13. poohpity says:

    To those who believe it was not for the specific problems for that church must reread the other letters and the letter written called Hebrews the author is still in question and most think it was a woman. I believe the Bible wholeheartedly and read it daily and am still learning but in my heart and my love of the Lord I have seen in its pages over and over the Lord uses whomever He chooses. Obviously a relationship with God was meant for only Jews but Jesus (God/man) said it was for all because those that were the chosen refused to accept the gift of salvation but WE ALL are to show the grace of God to all. We all are given gifts and they are not gender specific and WE are to use those gifts to enlarge the Kingdom of God period.

  14. rokdude5 says:

    Personally, in an IDEAL world, us guys SHOULD BE the leaders in our homes, churches and communities BUT the world is so far from being ideal.

    Sometimes due to circumstances and needs, a leadership role is thrust upon an individual with no or little training. Grooming a leader is a better course. In a lot of cases, us guys make for a very poor leader because of lack of training or personal issues. So the bottom line for me: Does a particular leader have fruits of the Spirit whether it be male or female? If there are, then who am I to question it?

    I can see that a home is truly blessed when the lady of the house is a follower of Christ whether she is a “leader” or not.

    I know there has been tension between my wife and me regarding a family issue that I felt was not going the way I deemed it should go. Though I felt I should have the “last word”, she kept trumping me. Fortunately, the issue resolved itself. I still feel blessed by my wife in spite of it all.

    Lastly, my wife have let me lead her in the past when we danced but she is now down to 8 good toes. Go figure.

  15. Rev. Jeff says:

    As I read everyone’s input, wow there is a month of Sundays teachings that could come out of this. There is a lot to unpack here.

    But I’ll just make some brief points.

    1- We are ALL called to be disciples – “ministers” of reconciliation. All believers are ministers. Pastors, shepards, teachers. Part of this is knowing the role of ministers, pastors, teachers vs deacons, bishops and elders. Now leaders in the body are to be men, not new to the faith, seasoned believers, spiritual leaders in their own family not given to drunkeness etc, husband of one wife.

    2- When you read about women being submissive to their husbands and also check out where older women are instructed to teach the younger women to LOVE their husbands. – Husbands are also to be submissive and love their wives. Not only love and be submissive, but treat them as the weaker vessel. This does not mean that women are weak! It means men, – love, honor and respect your wife as your most treasured! If you want to know what a virtuous wife is read Proverbs 31:10-31. This doesn’t sound like a “weak” vessel to me, much the opposite.

    3- About women not speaking in church – remember that text was about having order in their gatherings instead of the chaos that was going on. Do not be chit-chatting when the preacher is preaching – listen and if you have a question, write it down and ask your question afterwards – don’t be a distraction. 1 Corinthians 14:26-40.

    4- Spiritual coverings – chain of command,
    not your favorite hat or hairstyle. Eph 5:22-33. There is a lot to unpack here, but once again it’s not about control, but about love! Look at what Jesus replied to the question of the greatest commandments.
    “Love God with all your heart, mind, strength and body. The second is as great as the first, love your neighbor like yourself.” Love each other and hold each other higher than yourselves. Putting others first. Now fit this into what your reading here. When kids look at their parents, they should see a resemblance of Christ. As a wife looks to her husband, she should see a ressemblance of Christ, when we look at Christ, we see the Father! IMITATE CHRIST!

    I got to get back to work. This is a great and wonderful can of worms to have been opened up Mart. Thanks.

  16. pegramsdell says:

    God made man first, then woman, for the man. As a helpmate. She is to respect her husband and men in authority over her. Also, her husband is to protect her and cherish her. She should not have fear or anxiety.
    Oh, well ……
    I do know some couples that have it together and they work things out and if they cannot agree, then he makes the final decision. That was not the case for me. But, I have seen it work.
    Maybe next time……Thanks Mart for something to think about.

  17. sitsathisfeet says:

    Being a woman I have conflicting feelings about submissiveness. I have tried to base my actions on characteristics of women in the bible. But can I be like Abrahams Sarah, and call my husband Lord, or can I be like the attributes laid out in Proverbs 31:10-31, a wife of noble character? I know these are things the Lord is working within me. Everyone sees it differently. Sometimes I watch Marriage For Better Or Worse on the Christian station, and listen for the model of a Godly marriage. The idea of reading and studying the word together as a couple, and the husband washing his wife in the word is very appealing. Even though I did not have this type of marriage with an earthly husband, I have it with Jesus as my husband. But as I learn to submit to the Lord, won’t He be making changes in me, enabling me to submit to earthly authorities that are in accordance with his will? And yet I don’t know a lot of things. We’ve had women ministers and men ministers in our family. I was raised by very strong women. My grandmother was a very strong woman and ruled the roost, and my grandfather a godly man who often submitted or deferred to her, but I definately would not have called him weak, or without authority. They were married over 62 years til death! My mother ended up divorced, due to my father’s alcholism and raised five children. She was a strong woman also. She worked in a man’s world when women did not generally work outside the home, she was head of household, including spritually. All of it of course with the Lord’s enabling. I know in the bible Timothy was brought to Paul by his grandmother, and mother who were believers, and though it mentions his father was Greek, it doesn’t say anymore about his father. Yes women are important in the Bible too as our examples,and inspiration. Are they, or should they be considered equal to men? Is an apple, equal to an orange? They are both fruit, have vitamins, are good for you and needed – and aren’t each important in their own way? But are they equal? Yes and no. Both are important, both are needed, and both can be appreciated and used for different things. Just as people have different spiritual gifts, so I believe men and women have different individual gifts, how they use them should be between them and the Lord. We are all equally important to the body of Christ ( can a body say to the hand, I don’t need you?)

  18. spiritualdigest says:

    Women are created in the image of God as help-meet for men. They have their roles to play in the world and the propagation of the gospel of Christ. Regardless of attempts by men to relegate them to the background, the women are equal spiritually with men, and they can perform any role in the church and in any other place. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 14:33-36 should not be interpreted literally. It has to be interpreted within its context. However, women should remember that they are to be in submission to their husband regardless of the position they find themselves.

  19. cctouch says:

    This is a truly very interesting subject. I have been wondering about these very verses. I tend to take it that Paul was writing about women’s conduct while worshiping in church services. Although I am still a little confused as to whether a woman should be in certain leadership roles. I’ve read a lot of interesting views on this blog and hope to see more as this particular verse is one I happened on a little while back and I am very curious about what is actually meant by it. I am sort of forced into a leadership role in my home but only in some areas and it gets very confusing. God Bless!

  20. wretch-like-me says:

    Marti, You asked several questions in your opening remarks and I cant help thinking you are ‘poking the bear with a sharp stick’.

    Funny thing about opinion-giving, many if not most of us tend to dig-in once we state our case due to the fact that we have been challenged to use our brains and logically formulate an opinion…afterall each of us is trying to live the best life we can according to our personal interpretation of scripture and God’s leading tempered by the advice of those we respect as mentors, disciplers or other spiritual leaders we admire.

    I would caution all to consider that we dont want to fall into the trap of ‘every man(person) doing what was right in their own eyes’. This phrase is consistent thru the O.T. whenever the Israelites did what they wanted ‘justifying their actions’ with their own logic. I often disceive myself with such rationalizations. That’s why I seek advice from my spouse and others I trust as I assume we all do. Therein lies the reality that when facing final judgement, each of us will be held responsible for our individual actions.

    I have immense empathy for those who have experienced the abuse of authority. I came from an abusive home where my father(a small man physically) overcompensated for his insecurities by demanding complete submission. It has created for me intense anxiety when I make conscious decisions that affect my spouse and family. However, when left to unconscious decision-making(just thought about how that sounds…LOL) I tend to operate on autopilot and more often than not make the wrong choices having left God out of the equation.

    I submit to you that this is what happens when ‘church- leadership’ makes decisions. Some decisions which dont seem to require ‘God’ are made on autopilot. Others are made after little deliberation and prayer but once made are ‘sealed in concrete’ despite flaws of human logic. Woe to those who might want to revisit the issue!’

    I learned a very important lesson when a pastor took me aside and lovingly confronted me after having drafted revisions for our church constitution that were rediculously detailed. (my OCD at work) He reminded me of the Spirit of the Law over the Letter of the Law. Mercy Trumps Legalism.

    Our Lord is the ONLY example I try to follow. When I look at how He regarded and interacted with women I see love in action. He showed honor and respect regardless of condition, position,wealth or social status. It recently struck me how He cared for His mother as He mother(He was her eldest child) as He hung from the cross.

    LOVE is the seasoning that tempers all gifts, decision- making included. Christians were once heralded as being known by their love. Servanthood expresses itself thru loving submission. Leadership should always remember to be humble. (but for the grace of God, there go I)

    I suspect that our own egos are the source of petty disagreements that create schisms(I know that is true in my own case.)My advice to all is to humble yourselves before Christ and carry that over to your ministry where ever He places. When you release yourselves to serve others, its amazing how empowering that is. Christ told us that the last would be first and the first would be last. (Does that motivate you as it does me to work harder at being last in line?)
    Back Home in North Eastern Washington

  21. slml says:

    Back to the future president’s choices of women in his cabinet, I personally do not want to see any woman in such a place of authority.

    Not that they are not capable, I just believe that God intended for men to be the leaders. It’s not His fault that most have failed to take their proper place, and the world is in a mess.

    We have fallen so far short of God’s expectations that most everything is upside down.

    Regarding Mrs. Clinton’s being secretary of state, how can she be effective when many of the leaders of other countries do not even respect women, much less want to deal with them as equals.
    The same goes for Miss Rice and the one before her.

    The only reason I was happy about Sarah Palin was that she seemed to be the most honest person I’ve seen standing on a political stage in a long time. There are several women in the Bible that God used in very specific ways to get the job done, but as a rule, most chosen by Him for important roles were men.

    I would sure love to see this country governed by God-fearing, honest, faithful, intelligent men who would put Him first in all things.
    I don’t have much hope for that though.

  22. BobbiLee says:

    This is a great subject with wonderful responses. It is a difficult topic. There is no question that God’s line of authority is God, Man, Woman. When Eve took that forbidden fruit, where was Adam? Evidently right next to her because Eve handed it to him. Adam had a choice right there – obey or not to obey. From then on the man and/or woman headship was fraught with problems. Obviously throughout Scripture God has used women in leadership roles and blessed them for it. But remember, it was under God’s authority or under the headship or authority of a man.

    For instance, when Apollos was taught by Priscilla, it was under her husband’s headship. An interesting note here is that at first this couple was known as Aquila and Priscilla. By the time we hear the last of them, they are known as Priscilla and Aquilla. :-) Evidently it was Priscilla who grew into leadership rather than her husband.

    If a woman doesn’t have a husband she can still be in leadership in the church under the headship of a man: pastor, other family member etc. As a last thought, Scripture is God’s ideal and we live in a fallen world. There will be times when we stray from that ideal in this life.

    PS NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that either a man or a woman must live under abusive circumstances.

  23. Ted M. Gossard says:

    I really think a new book called The Blue Parakeet by Scot McKnight, speaks well and powerfully to this issue, and on how we need to read the Bible.

  24. SFDBWV says:

    I have more questions than answers. I was hoping we would have heard from some Messianic Jews. Where did the custom of seperating the men from the women begin in Synagogue worship?

    Could this custom have been a result of adopting foregin worship practice?

    The short answer to the topic concerning the home. The man should be the head of the household but share decision making power with his wife. If the man does not place himself under the authority of God through Jesus. Than he has relinqueshed his authority to Satan and is not worthy to be the head of his house. Disaster will follow.

    As far as women in government, look to history for an answer. Both in Biblical record and in the worlds history. The Queen of Sheeba had no King. Yet she sought out wisdom. I thought Margeret Thatcher was a pretty good leader for England. And a tough one.

  25. poohpity says:

    LOL! I said in an earlier post when someone drops the ball some else needs to pick it up. Well, I know we are talking about men/women in leadership in the church but it seems like someone has dropped the ball in leadership roles in a lot of areas. I do not know if it has been taken away or given up, I guess that is the main question.
    However it has been dropped and someone has to pick it up. I think that it is a pride issue to not recognize leadership capabilities in any human being with out it being a gender issue.

  26. Charis says:

    SFDBWV says: The short answer to the topic concerning the home. The man should be the head of the household but share decision making power with his wife.

    No matter how many times we’ve hard that said, does the Bible actually say “the man should be the head of the household“?

    The Bible says “the husband is the head of the wife” (Eph 5) and the wife is the “oikedespoteo” 1 Tim 5:14

    Lexicon Definition:
    “oikodespot- and oikodespoteō from to be master of a house or head of a family, to rule the household

  27. SFDBWV says:

    you are right Deborah, it is about pride. I forgot to mention the Judge Deborah while naming women of the Bible. Just thought of that.

    Behind every CEO is a secretary that makes her boss look good.She could do the job just as well as he but, as most women have had to learn the hard way, it is a man’s world.

    My personal displeasure at the appointment of Hilary Clinton as Secretary of State, has nothing to do with her gender. I don’t think she is qualified.

    Steve

  28. poohpity says:

    lol! Yes but do you see our Governator is the Home Land Security Person. Who knows if anybody is truly qualified but it is a change lets pray a lot and stand behind them and see what they can do. Next election we can always fire them LOL.

  29. macsisson22 says:

    Thanks Charis. I appreciate your response and you have given me something else to consider. There is still the pig part that many of us have to overcome. I have enjoyed all of your comments on this subject and will pray for all of you that are struggling, BTW, SFDBWV I agree with you on the qualification part.

  30. NDgal says:

    This has been such a very frustrating topic for me. I have prayed and prayed for wisdom in this area. On one hand, I do believe that there might be less social problems in the world if women were focusing more on nurturing their families and less on nurturing their egos, but on the other hand, I think that many men try to work the Bible to fit their own needs.

    Let’s say a woman wants to grow in her faith and attend worship services regularly and all she gets is resistance and belittlement from her husband. What then? Should she submit to her husband, or submit to the Lord? Who is more important? As far as ordination goes, what if she is called by the Holy Spirit to prophesy, etc.? Is she to deny that calling? Wouldn’t that be like burying the talent? A friend of mine is in a marriage in which her husband is very controlling. He pays little attention to many of the virtues mentioned in the Bible, but he really does zero in on that submission thing, let me tell you. The women in their church can’t even vote. In Proverbs 31 is takes about the woman who makes a wise land purchase (without her husband)… but yet some women can’t vote in church? What kind of an example of Christ is a husband being to his wife if he holds her under his thumb?

    What about the Prophetess Anna? Do you think that she was told to remain quite in church when Mary and Joseph presented the Christ child to God in the temple? What about Mother Theresa? Didn’t she do the good of a legion of us? What if she had remained silent all her days?

    Yet I think some churches take it to extremes. Some want to cross out every single biblical reference of “He” and replace it with God so it sounds gender-neutral. That is a little too far out there for me.

  31. wretch-like-me says:

    Let me begin with applause for all who wrestled with this most difficult of issues. I have a ‘wink’ for Marti for his courage in setting this bonfire ablaze. I commend all for their self-control. I ask your indulgence now as I try to express my thoughts and conclusions. (note references to my earlier post) I do appreciate critiques especially in pointing at flaws in my logic.

    Marti wrote…”Have cultural changes trumped the social order of the Bible?

    Or have we in some way misunderstood the intent and wisdom the Apostle Paul when he wrote,
    “God is not the author of confusion but of peace… Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says” (1Cor 14:33-34).”

    The answer is sin. Yes, the curse of the ‘original sin’ of Adam and Eve. Our nature is in conflict with our spirit. The world is corrupted by it. Everything we touch, manipulate, create is contaminated.

    Is it not possible that Paul was speaking in reference to the ‘rabbinical law’ as opposed to the Mosaic law? By that time a multitude of specifics had been written to interpret and expand the understanding of the law and in the process corrupting it. This is why the pharisees could keep the letter of the law without obeying the spirit of the law.

    I have read about, observed and experienced humble servants using their gifts of ministry despite opposition and certainly without positive recognition. They served for the sheer joy of serving Our Lord and His sheep. (The fields are white with harvest but the workers are few.)

    Is this not what the apostles demonstrated after Pentecost when they were threatened to stop teaching and preaching of Jesus Christ? Does the servant serve to be applauded by leadership or the people… OR by the One who called them into service?

    Is that what Paul is referencing when he speaks about God and confusion?

    Every ‘true’ servant answers a call from God despite the obstacles or opposition from others.

    If we truly live as Christ lived we live every moment for HIM… as man, woman, husband, wife, father, mother, provider, homemaker, friend…our lives should overflow with HIS presence? That’s the only way we will experience the harmony of the Unity of the Spirit.

    Christ exemplied that to the fullest. He valued every person equally. Paul echos this in his letter to the Corinthians regarding gifts and love.

    I think perhaps we may have allowed our ‘nature’ to override our spirit by taking offense many issues including women in power. Afterall, Is God in ultimate control of all things(including govt authorities)…?

    Over the years, I have had to ask myself one question in many areas of my life… Am I serving to please my self…or to please God? If I am a slave, a bond-servant to Christ what right do I have to take offense? A slave has NO rights. (We Americans have a hard time swallowing that!)

    When it comes to women (or men) in the home, church, or career should it be any different?

    I have no objections to women serving in church so long as they exemplify Christ in that service and most importantly in their personal lives. Politically we cannot control anyone beyond the ballot. We have a hard enough time controlling ourselves. How can we expect to control others?

    The only answer is PRAYER. We underestimate its power and privilege…to be able to enter at any time the throneroom of God and have audience with the KING OF KINGS. We also underestimate the other half of prayer, living a righteous life.(the prayers of a righteous…)

    I submit to you that the real issue is always one of self whether in the garden or our Society.

    Our forefathers valued the rights of the individual; however, the majority ruled in decision-making. When the majority is a God-fearing people, this country is a healthy nation. As we slipped and allowed God to be overshadowed by ‘Human-rights’ we lost the concepts that insured our health as a nation.

    Oh, we still try to do the right thing. But, Everyone is doing what is right in his own eyes.

    (Dare I open another can of worms and ask What music is appropriate for worship? The emotions and nature tell us what feels good or uplifting…but, what does the Spirit or the Word say?)

    We will continue to slip into decay and corruption so long as we ignore God and what is right in HIS EYES.

  32. Mart De Haan says:

    What a good and helpful discussion! Thanks to all of you for weighing in with such consideration for one another and a shared desire to understand the intent of Scripture. I haven’t wanted to cut off this discussion but am going to post something else that will hopefully carry the conversation over to a new page. Am hoping that those who catch the next post will refer back to the comments you’ve made above.

  33. poohpity says:

    wretch-like-me,

    My veil is off to you too! Amen! I think any music that brings Glory to God is good not just good but wonderful. If it weren’t for music I do not know how I would make it through the day worshiping our God. I know some have to wear ear plugs, lol. Jubul was the creator of the harp and flute and I imagine the first complaints about music began, lol.

    If you want to open a can of worms try explaining the expansion of the population with the brothers and sisters having sex to be fruitful and multiply.

  34. believer3 says:

    Quote
    “In Creation Eve was made as a “helper” to Adam and that in the Old Testament, “helper” normally describes God as our “helper” (Gen 2:18; Psalm 70:5).

    I find the way this is said it easily leads people to think that women are assistants to the tasks of men. And that is not the way Scripture says it. This is a pretty big problem. Plus when pieces of Scripture are lifted out of their context, it also easily leads to remaking it into something else. And this is one of those Scriptures that is often lifted out of context unintentionally.

    The context is that it is not good for the human to be alone, and God is going to send a help for the not-good of aloneness. This is quite different from “a helper” to the man. She IS the help. She does not give help to.

  35. believer3 says:

    oops! I put the comment in the wrong thread. :( Sorry about that.

    Good discussion though.

  36. ruthannarahab says:

    I think that there are times when men aren’t doing their jobs that God will call upon women to do them. Like in the case of Deborah in the old testament. I do not think God intended it to be a landslide submission on either side. I also know that the Apostle Paul said that it was not right for a woman to teach over a man. He did not say anything about a woman teaching over a woman. Again, though, the bible is full of examples of women taking varying leadership positions, especially in the old testament. Although the 12 disciples that were in the inner circle were all males, Jesus did have numerous women disciples that would follow his sermons from town to town. Could it be that years and years of learning and teaching Judaism, the Apostle Paul’s natural mind was influenced to stress this conclusion, or was it completely under the influence of the Holy Spirt? We know that preachers carnal minds can sometimes influence the things that they preach. Holy spirit filled preachers sometimes teach things in which they don’t entirel understand. It took God given dreams to get the apostle Peter to see that the Gentiles were being allowed into God’s family through the redemption of Christ.

    I believe that it is in God’s design for a man to be the bread winner of the family and for a woman to be the main caretaker of the children and the household. It’s not a demotion on the womans part. It’s simply that we are more designed to do certain things. I think that the current focus on material wealth has caused the current vision and understanding of familial structure to be misconstrued and ignored.

  37. ashanti1976 says:

    1 Peter 3(New Living Translation) states “In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat her with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God’s gift of new life. If you don’t treat her as you should, your prayers will go unheard.”

    We as men and women are connected to one another through our blessings. Our rewards for following Christ are our equality. Here are where the confusions come along.

    Men have replaced God’s given dominion with their own use of fear, tyrannical controlling, and selfishness. The sad thing is that this worldly definition is traditionally passed along as what a man should be by God. (Matthew 15)

    God’s dominion is not about making others feel subservient and never has been. His dominion was structured to be about accountability and responsibility through HIS WAYS OF LOVE (1 Corinthians 13). Let me try to explain in a different light. Dominion is a contract bestowed upon man by God (The CEO/ The Only King of the Castle/Kingdom). Man is the COO (Chief Operating Officer). Man needed help to run this organization called earth. So God looked out for him and created woman to be his VP or Co-Chief Operating Officer. Here’s one of the kickers…man is who God holds accountable for the earth going in the black. But woman will reap the same reward of going in the black if she does not uphold her Divine duties despite anything man does not uphold. Remember we are supposed to be equal in our rewards. If one loses, we all lose no matter who may appear above the tides. See we are fulfilling duties not roles when it comes to God (check the definitions roles and duties). Roles are really what we as people put on ourselves. Duties are covenants/obligations with no compromise.

    Here’s where it gets tricky. He created woman to be uniquely different from man. Although she is stated in the Bible as being weaker, she is not weak (for those men who are stuck on control as power and not inspiration through their own deeds/works). Men need to read Proverbs 31 to see what God wanted woman to truly be. If you read closely, it says she is energetic and as strong as her works needs her to be. She is capable of inspecting and buying land with HER OWN EARNINGS. Just those few aspects of Virtuous women/Women of Noble Character (Proverbs 31) would suggest that she is capable of being a well balanced person on her own educationally, financially, etc. She had to have studied and rehearsed/practiced these WAYS before getting involved with a man in order to be strong for the union.
    For women, here are some of the reasons why the topic of women not being heard in the church becomes important though…first her husband would have understood that she has the obligation to be at her strongest in life so she could relate to what man was going through by being a better balanced individual, as well a helper through God and not through the man of God…secondly man was suppose to direct his path for himself and his family through Christ. Not from worldly checklists or achievements and boastfulness through talk…finally because man was showing signs of not been great examples of God’s Love by not being selfish, boasting/arrogant, making others jealous and easily angering people, it was set up so that someone could help restore/counterbalance wrongful ways and not conform to them, but help transform. (Ecclesiastes 4:7-12) Hence the end of Proverbs 31 states, “Let her DEEDS publicly declare her praise”, not her speaking. Paul even says women are supposed to discuss questions within their household/husband and let the husband take them to the counsel to be answered and bring back responses for further discussion in the household.(1 Corinthians 14:26-39) Paul was just stressing order over chaos so he went with God’s structure and creational order and accountability/responsibility. This would also suggest that she seek God for herself and not just take anyone’s words for granted. She is counting on the man to be truthful with her in God’s name not his will. But when man falls down and can’t/refuses to get up or admit his wrongdoings, she must set out to help in roles that men assume are theirs, but can filled by anyone who is strong in God. Look at the stories of the women who followed Jesus(Luke 8:1-3), look at the blood blemished woman’s faith(Matthew 9:18-26)look at the Gentile woman’s faithfulness(Mark 7:24-30), look at the prophecy of Anna(Luke 2:36-40), look at the sinful woman who anointed Jesus with love(Luke 7:36-50), look at the Samaritan Woman or woman at the well(John 4), look at the woman caught in adultery(John 8:1-11) Women have been strong examples of belief, faith, work ethic, and transformation since the beginning of time. Remember she too has her divine rewards invested in man’s well being and has to be the unique woman God created her to fill into. Men and women in Christ have earthly worth with heavenly value. Value suggests that you can be bought, but to be in Christ you would already know that he bought you at the highest price that no man or woman could ever pay. Our earthly worth is meant to be invested in only if we choose to grow as a body/union in the ways we are to reflect in His image and not our own.

    No matter how high we get in riches, degrees, titles, etc. in this world know that our divine rewards/blessings are not of this world. Sometimes we chase God for his blessings instead of chasing THE PROVIDER. We have faith to ask for things, but aren’t faithFULL before, through or beyond our blessings. (To be blessed is to be rewarded for walking in His ways consciously) We use God like an ATM machine sometimes. (“I’ll be back when I need more”) Know that as we take on the “I” status and see our brothers or sisters struggling (1 John 3:16-20) and don’t walk in God’s Way of Love(1 Corinthians 13), we, as a whole human race, will reap what we sow (BOTH GENDERS INCLUDED). Therefore men must understand that dominion is rooted in GOD’S LOVE (1 John 4:16-20) “Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and keeps no records of wrong doing; it is never glad about injustices but rejoices when the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstances” (1 Corinthians 13:4-7) The latter stated scripture list the ways of God’s Love broken down for us to study, consciously understand, practice and apply daily. To not do so would show that you are “speaking as a child, thinking as a child, and reasoning as a child” hence meaning that you have not “put away childish things/ behaviors/ ways” which are many times passed along to generations as traditional roles of men and women beyond divine duty.

    For the men, Ephesians 5 stated for husbands as well as wives to submit. Submission is not subservient it is giving/sharing your best. It was not meant to submit to the instant self gratifying ways or desires of one another (1 Corinthians 7:29-38), but to submit to reflecting God’s Love/Ways to one another’s lives. “In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man actually loves himself when he loves his wife.”(Ephesians 5 :28-30) Men have to get over themselves and start to live “naked and unashamed”(Genesis 2:24-25) of their own lives to truly store Gods Ways of Love deep in their heart.(Proverbs 7:1-3) Men have to learn as well as women how to apply love. If you can’t love yourself then how can anyone expect to love another? Then they need to start to teach and lead by the chapter of Titus 2. To continue teaching emotionless masculinity seeing where this world is currently standing, is insanity ( Def.:To choose to repeatedly do the same action, expecting different results.) Times are bringing about changes yet we don’t transform to the only unchanging, unconditional ways to be able to transfer to the next generation!?@#

    Although my comment is long, hopefully it is detailed for you to seek enlightenment for yourself. I leave you with this, “Then we will no longer be like children, forever changing our minds about what we believe because someone has told us something different or because someone has cleverly lied to us and made the lie sound like the truth. Instead we will hold to the truth in love, becoming more and more in every way like the Christ (our best example of God’s love in human form), who is the head of His body, the church (in this world, but not of it). Under His direction, the whole body is fitted together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and (faith)FULL of Love.” (1 Corinthians 4:14-16) “And God Himself has commanded that we must love not only him but our Christian brothers or sisters, too.” (1 John 4: 21…please read the whole chapter not just the verse) but here is the key we must love one another as we love ourselves… and if we do not know how to love ourselves then know that “…He will give you all you need from day to day if you live for Him and make the Kingdom of God your primary concern.” Know that GOD, who is Love, is the connection/ means/foundation to every being, everything and their fruition and prosperity. Having another gender around was a way for God to say to man I have another human for you to Love in all her strengths and weakness like your own that reflects my image but you must always keep me first so I can show you how!

    ***all Biblical text was taken from the New Living Translation***

  38. ashanti1976 says:

    Also wanted to say that we cannot afford to believe that we should be seeking relationships of “better halves”. We are supposed to be “whole”. In order to be whole, we must be strong with Love in heart, Love in our Mind, Love in our souls, and Love for our body. The Bible says we are to be fruitful, multiply then replenish…unfortunately, many are going about this blessing the opposite order. We were to be fruitful in the Ways of God’s Love. Then multiply in spiritual union with mates/companions/ neighbors. In order to multiply we have to be whole/complete in Christ. If you multiply a (better) half times a (better) half you get a half of a relationship. We were made to be God’s compliment to one another for following His ways as a whole/complete being…which would be seen in decreasing our divorce rates…We may be in similar times of balancing and restoration like those in Isaiah 2-4. When you seem to fall or become impatient with God’s plan in the midst of this world, take a look at Psalms 73 and know that when we are weak or down is the time to acknowledge that we need to choose God’s Ways more than ever to transform our conformed situations.

  39. Pacer_2k says:

    I stumble onto this site in search of an answer to a question that I have been asking for years and more so now. “What does a woman bring to the table in a marriage?” This year, I have been married for 24 years, filled for the divorce over a year ago and haven’t yet set foot in court. Court date keeps getting reset. Nearly three years ago I lost another job at no fault of my own, company restructuring. I call my wife to let her know I going to need help paying the mortgage, her classic answer to the kids and me when ever you ask her for money “I don’t have any money.” She works and I pay all the bills, even car note that she drives and she never has any money. Well two weeks after letting her know I was out of work she moves out leaving our two daughters in my care. When I realize what she has done, I call her and mention that she was leaving the girls with me – her reply, “It’s not like I am leaving them with a stranger – I’m leaving with their father.” She then hung up the phone. I would have been really upset if she took the girls, I just could understand why a mother would leave her daughter when the father is out of work. Will, God bless me with a job which I started that Monday. I have never found a job so quickly.

    When I entered into this marriage I was in conflict with myself. I wanted to do right by my unborn son and by her, but at the same time my enter voice spoke loud against it. For years I leave the home to go to work only to return to a home that is dirtier that it was when I left. For years my wife didn’t work. As I approached the door of my home I can smell nothing in the kitchen. So, I peep in through the window, the kids are running around playing and she is seating on the couch, in her underwear no bra watching TV. One day I found myself in the closet seating in the dark with the door close wondering how my life came to this. I had a very stressful job (technical support). I hated to leave the house to go to work and hated to leave work to come home. You see I didn’t go to the bar or hangout with friends after work. I didn’t have friends for I was ashamed of condition my home is in. I brought every penny I earned home and when I spent any money on myself to buy a pair of shoes or clothing I felt guilty that I wasn’t spending it on my kids. She learned one day that her brother and sister-in-law were renewing their vows. As soon as she ask, I quickly replied – “No, and if I can ever get out of this marriage I will never enter another.” She giggled and replied, “Why, I have treated you so bad?” At that time we only had two kids, and I made a mistake of letting her know that as soon as they leave the nest I will also follow. Shortly after that her birth control piles all of sudden fail to work and we are having another child.

    I’m in a marriage where my spouse is putting me down on everything thing I try to do and she does it in such a jokingly way that the kids join in with her. One of my daughters as she gotten older caught onto what her mother was doing. One day I came home, my wife had a big bump on her head and my daughter was across the street. The neighbors was tending to her, my wife had sink your teeth into her breast so deep that each tooth broke skin. My daughter lives with that scare today. My daughter’s still live with me. When I filed for divorce, my wife jump into be more apart of my youngest daughter life. My wife even stated that our youngest move out with her. I am also being told that there is not a judge that will give primary custody of child to a father unless he can proved the mother is on drugs or abusive. Since there is no police record of valance in the home and she not on drugs I’m out of luck. Yes! I am being told that a mother can leave the home, does what ever she want with whom ever she wants and still gain primary custody of the child that she left in the care of the father. I am also support my other daughter through college. I’m tired.

    I’m told that I’m doing the right thing and that God has someone out there for me. But, I am struggle with that question again, “”What does a woman bring to the table in a marriage?” Or “What is her role in a marriage?” Old school states that the father is the provider, the bread winner, and the mother is the nurturer. Today’s reality, those basic roles in some households have flipped with great success. Why one relationship fail and another is abundantly successful? Unfortunately I cannot speak from the perspective of a successful marriage. But, I can speak from that of a failed one.

    I went into this marriage thinking that everyone wanted what I wanted, the “American Dream” and was willing to work hard to obtain it. I was wrong, so wrong. Then after realizing I made a mistake, I told myself that I’m going to have to live with it the best I can one day at a time for the sake of my child. Ok! Now how can I motivate my wife to be a productive member of this team? How can I mold her into the person that I need in my life? As you can see my mistake were pilling up one after another getting bigger and bigger. I married in my early twenties, had a lot to learn about myself. How can I mold someone into to the person I needed in my life when I don’t even know what I need in my life to be happy or successful myself. I’m still trying to figure out me. Plus, I’m still addressing issues of my own childhood that haven’t been resolved. So, I then turned to myself and man I learn a lot. Plus, God worked with me on those childhood issues. Now I am more confident and know exactly what I want, but, what do I do know?

    As kaliko88 as already written, “We are all different in our own ways, with our own strengths, talents, and skills. It works best for my husband and I when we acknowledge who has the greater skill in something and let them do it. Sometimes it is him, and sometimes it is me. We compliment each other, like puzzles pieces that fit.” I fully agree and understand this. There is an old saying that goes something like this; “You can lead the horse to water, but you cannot make the horse drink.” I had a horse and I put this saying to the test. Yeah, I not only lead the horse to water and when he didn’t drink I walked him into the pond to the point we both had to swim out and that horse didn’t drink a drop. Realizing that I couldn’t do anything I then turn to prayer. I prayed and I prayed. The answer I receive is no matter how much I pray for God to change a person’s will, he is not going to do it. So, as I bring closure to one relationship how do I remain open to another? How do I not harden my heart and live the rest of my life alone? How do i recognize that puzzle that fits? I don’t want to go through what I am going through today every again.

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