Text Size: Zoom In

The Missing Script of Application

In a provocative article called “How Can the Bible be Authoritative?,” New Testament Scholar and Bishop of Durham, N.T. Wright, discusses a problem that many of us have wondered about. In short, the question he raises sounds like this: If the Bible is a God-breathed story written to people living in another time and culture, how do we know what timeless principles to bring forward into our own lives, and what sacrifices, rituals, and time-specific behaviors to leave behind?

If you’re on the run right now and don’t have time to read an excerpt of Wright, or better yet, his whole article, I’ll try to quickly net out here what follows:

In summary, it’s about the missing script of application.Wright shows us what to look for in a story written to someone else, for us. The authority of the Bible, he suggests, lies in its whole story with all of its plots, themes and characters, rather than in its individual parts. (Wright is careful to affirm that the individual parts of Scripture are inspired, even if some of them are not binding on us.)

Other writers have made the same point when they remind us that most of us do not read the Bible with the assumption that it requires us to: (1) “Stop drinking water and instead take a little wine for our stomachs” (1Tim 5:23)? (2) Greet one another with a holy kiss (Romans 16:16). (3) “Sell our possessions and give to the poor” (Luke 12:33). (4) If we are not married, “to not look for a wife” (1Corintians 7:27). Or, (5) whenever we are sick, “call the elders of the church to pray over us and anoint us with oil in the name of the Lord” (James 5:14).

So to avoid the problem of knowing what to do with individual parts of the Bible, Wright suggests that we need to thoroughly immerse ourselves in the plot, themes, and characters of the Scriptures until we see how its timeless principles move forward into practical life-changing applications.

Well that’s the way I’d summarize it. Here’s a brief excerpt that shows how NT Wright, in his own words, illustrates this process:

Wright suggests, and I quote,

“Let me offer you a possible model, which is not in fact simply an illustration, but actually corresponds, as I shall argue, to some important features of the biblical story, which (as I have been suggesting) is that which God has given to his people as the means of his exercising his authority. (End of Quote) From Vox Evangelica 21 1991

Suppose there exists a Shakespeare play whose fifth act had been lost. The first four acts provide, let us suppose, such a wealth of characterization, such a crescendo of excitement within the plot, that it is generally agreed that the play ought to be staged.

Nevertheless, it is felt inappropriate actually to write a fifth act once and for all: it would freeze the play into one form, and commit Shakespeare as it were, to being prospectively responsible for work not in fact his own.

Better, it might be felt, to give the  key parts to highly trained, sensitive and experienced Shakespearian actors, who would immerse themselves in the first four acts, and in the language and culture of Shakespeare and his time, and who would then be told to work out a fifth act for themselves.

Consider the result. The first four acts, existing as they did, would be the undoubted “authority” for the task in hand. That is, anyone could properly object to the new improvisation on the grounds that this or that character was now behaving inconsistently, or that this or that sub-plot or theme, adumbrated (i.e. sketchily summarized) earlier, had not reached its proper resolution.

This “authority” of the first four acts would not consist in an implicit command that the actors should repeat the earlier parts of the play over and over again. It would consist in the fact of an as yet unfinished drama, which contained its own impetus, its own forward movement, which demanded to be concluded in the proper manner but which required of the actors a responsible entering into the story as it stood, in order first to understand how the threads could appropriately be drawn together, and then to put that understanding into effect by speaking and acting with both innovation and consistency.”

Wright goes on to suggest that the first four existing Acts would be 1) Creation; 2) Fall; 3) Israel;  4) Jesus, and adds:The New Testament would then form the first scene in the fifth act, giving hints as well… of how the play is supposed to end. The church would then live under the “authority” of the extant story, being required to offer something between an improvisation and an actual performance of the final act. Appeal could always be made to the inconsistency of what was being offered with a major theme or characterization in the earlier material.”

Yes, this requires some thought. But how can we begin to work through some of the issues that we’ve been thinking about lately without thinking carefully about what it takes to live out a wholly inspired Story written to someone else living in another time– for us?

NT Wright’s full article can be found at: http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Bible_Authoritative.htm


Vote on whether you think this post is something you'll be thinking about:
Vote This Post DownVote This Post Up (+29 rating, 30 votes)
Loading...
49 Comments »

49 Responses to “The Missing Script of Application”

  1. macsisson22 says:

    I like the five part play analogy.

    I have always believed that we are supposed to first consider the historical, grammatical, and contextual meaning behind a verse or passage and then attempt to make the application.

    As we have seen though, many of us are stretching these out and/or leaning on our own understanding. Some have limited various passages in order to make their point and even I may be guilty.

    For instance, the ‘husband of one wife’ (or to paraphrase the Greek litteral ‘one woman man’) passages in Timothy and Titus were relegated at times to mean mearly the faithfulness of the deacon or elder.

    Historically this phrase may have been an idiom with the support of the formentioned, but was that the INTENT of Paul in his letters? Paul seems to have spoken to specific individuals in the church, Men, and had specific meaning at the time of their writing.

    Some did not recognize a position of elder as being an office yet there is a definite APPOINTment in every church.

    I have to go back to something that I said in a previous post. I believe that God has allowed the various denominations in order for us to worship with others of “like faith”.

    We will not in this lifetime all agree on issues of women in leadership, styles of music or the color of the curtains in the nursery. But we should agree, no must agree, on the fundimentals of the faith if we are to be considered a part of the one body and one spirit….

  2. poohpity says:

    When I first starting reading the bible in 1989 I learned different things than what I am learning now. Over time and the Lord knowing our hearts, knowing our motives, reveals more of the truths that are held within those pages. We learn, hopefully, through application and persistence. One can not read it once or twice and get it. It is an unfolding relationship that takes time and it is alive, revealing things daily.

  3. SFDBWV says:

    Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    I request the opportunity to come back to the topic at a later time. Let me just agree with rdcomp, for me this one is easy. However I am, as Mart put it on the run.

    I have never read N.T. Wright. But I have read the Bible. I have read other scholars on various topics . The difference is the same as night and day.

    The Word of God is alive. Men’s words are not. They may be inspiring they may be troublesome, even confusing. But not alive.

    I’ll be back, I am sure there are a lot of folks wanting to get in on this conversation.

  4. poohpity says:

    I read the N.T. Wright lecture and found some problems I guess the main one was his identification of Jesus as a prophet. Did I confuse what he said? It was very wordy so I may have not understood.

  5. Ted M. Gossard says:

    Poohpity, Didn’t Jesus fulfill the role of prophet, priest and king? Wasn’t Jesus the Prophet like Moses God promised whom all would have to obey?

    Yes, I love this point by N.T. Wright and it resonates well, and is even clarified in some ways in Kevin J. Vanhoozer’s amazing book, I’m finally finishing, “The Drama of Doctrine: A Canonical Linguistic Approach to Christian Theology.” I love the point Wright is making here. We need to keep ourselves so soaked in the Story of God we find in Scripture that it becomes a part of us by the Spirit in its ongoing unfolding in the world in Jesus, of which we are all a part. Every part is important to the whole, yet we have each of us in Jesus, our role to “play”. And it needs to be a part of who we are, but what is central is God’s purpose or aim or centering point in Jesus, from which all is worked out. Something like that.

    But I think Wright’s take on Scripture here is helpful, and needed, because surely Scripture is about life, raw life, but life in God as well, to be lived out, with the End of the Story in mind and in view, as well as the past and present- in Jesus. A tall order, and one we have to keep working on and growing into.

  6. daisymarygoldr says:

    The Bible, to me is God’s wisdom expressed in human words…thoughts of His love text-messaged in the express image of His beloved son Jesus Christ, who is the sole theme that weaves through every book of the Bible. Jesus Himself claimed this in Luke 24:27. It is all about who He was, is and is to come…His authority is not limited to any specific time or culture but applies through all of eternity.

    Actually, there is danger in being stuck with individual parts. Sometimes there are people who keep chanting the one thing that most appeals to their minds and fancies their thoughts… for ex., its o-n-l-y creation, or sin, or grace, or prophecy, or tongues, or Holy Spirit, or healing, or tribulations, or demon possession, or gender roles …and then, that becomes their religion of sorts. Therefore, I do not ever consider the Bible in individual parts, rather in its entirety. It is His whole story and I see Jesus in creation, fall, laws, poetry, prose, in the NT, in Revelation and in our individual lives as well.

    Let us not be ignorant…there is no missing revelation of the Holy Spirit in the Bible. There are no hidden plots or lost acts. God has revealed it all… even to the minutest detail of all the practical thoughts and actions of our very own lives! It is the living word of God and the effectiveness of its timeless principles lies, not in its language and grammar, but in our willingness to obey it even today in the 21st century.

    “…but, it’s not popular wisdom, the fashionable wisdom of high-priced experts that will be out-of-date in a year or so. God’s wisdom is something mysterious that goes deep into the interior of His purposes. You don’t find it lying around on the surface. It’s not the latest message, but more like the oldest—what God determined as the way to bring out His best in us, long before we ever arrived on the scene. The experts of our day haven’t a clue about what this eternal plan is…” (1 Cor 2: 6-10 The Message)

  7. Motorcycleminister says:

    Being brought up Jewish and accepting Jesus as my Messiah in 1990 was not easy. As I read the whole Bible to search who I was, there were lots of questions. Over the years I realized that God gave us many commandments and teachings. What I see and show many others is what God said: “Of all the commandments, which is the most important? The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:28-31)…I explain to others that this is in the Old Testament as well: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart”.(Deuteronomy 6:4-6)…..Why argue and fight over religion and it’s interpretations when God insists were are to Love Him and others. With God’s Love, Barry

  8. SFDBWV says:

    daisymarygoldr has spoken well. As have others.

    I have said before that the Bible is a story of God and man. It is. These are real people we read about in scripture. Real, like you and I. Alive and with all the same trapings and failures, triumphs and victories. We today may not kill a giant with a slingshot. But it actualy happend to a young shepherd boy named David.

    Our giants may be a divorce, a job loss, unacceptance, unsurmountable odds. But the same God who stood with David stands with us today. HE never changes, we may change as a culture, technologicly but people are also inwardly the same.

    Because of the uniqueness of the Bible, the story has many layers of truths. Perhaps an eternal layer that is without end. The deeper one searches the deeper the spiritual meaning and understanding. Each persons contribution of their story with their relationship with or without God, is played out to conclusion. So that all the knowledge we need to know about the matter is given us. Including the results of disobedience.

    Though we now ride in a car rather than on a donkey. Angels can still block our way, as they did Balaam. The truths of the story remain the same. Balaam’s experience actualy happened to him. His story was recorded so that we could learn and understand. For our benifit.

    I knew a man who once would only quote one verse of scripture every time we dicussed life after death. Even though I would take him through scripture verse after scripture verse to show him what I considered the “truth”, he would stick to that one verse. As “dmg” above stated he had made a doctrine around that one verse. He never would allow himself to grow spiritualy.

    Many scholars and deeply intellectual people, have the same road block. They just can’t get past a paticular point. They need proof.

    The Word of God speaks to each person who seeks HIM. An awareness is born out of reading and hearing the Word of God.

    If we read something we don’t like to hear, will we harden our heart to the truth he is trying to teach and prolong our understanding of the matter? Most do I think.

    For me the Bible is as relevant today as it was when it was written. The Word doesn’t need to change in order for me to understand, I need to surrender my hard headed will and allow HIM to teach me. HIS way not mine.

  9. BruceC says:

    I agree with rdrcomp and motorcycle minister so I will add nothing more. I’m not an intellectual, nor am I dense. And while N.T. Wright is likely far smarter than I; I find that most intellectuals mentally chase their own tail or seem to dig themselves a hole not knowing how they got there.

  10. Mart De Haan says:

    Hey, I really appreciate all of your comments.

    NT Wright is an Orthodox, and conservative scholar from the church of England. The reason I’m quoting him here is that I’ve been taught by, and resonate with other teachers who, with a very high view of Scripture, emphasize how careful we must not only in interpreting difficult passages, but in applying them to others.

    As some of you have indicated, so much of the Bible speaks for itself. But there are difficult parts that the best of scholars (with a high view of Scripture) disagree about. In such difficult matters, I’ve concluded, it is best to form convictions slowly– if at all.

    This is also one reason I’m becoming increasingly convinced that what we need to do is to understand the story not only of the whole Bible– but the story of sin, salvation, baptism, and faith toward God from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation. Yes it’s a life-long challenge. But what could be more worthwhile?

    The journey of faith we share is full of surprises. The newest believers immediately get enough information about faith and love to occupy them fully– while the oldest and wisest among us can keep saying, don’t stop now… there’s more to see in the inexhaustible and timeless wisdom of the Book of books…

  11. poohpity says:

    Ted,
    I think the writer may have overlooked the fact of the deity of Christ. If one is discussing authority in a lecture and states that all authority is in God alone but refers to Jesus as a prophet while never mentioning His deity I am left to wonder if the discussion has any merit. Jesus did have all authority given Him by God and is in Himself God, not a prophet. This one fact has caused many to trip and new pseudo churches to start.

    I did find the argument about the evolution of the church to be thought provoking. The bible is testaments (testimonies) of peoples experiences with God and we can see after continued reading it does unfold many aspects of God that we have yet to learn. I also agreed with the church being started with no bible as we know it today. Obviously we can not follow the bible literally because that was a different time and honestly I do not believe we were meant to. So the argument is which part to follow and hence believing that the ultimate authority is found in Jesus and the commands given to us through Him.

    I love the Word and my understanding of God grows daily and in light of the discussions we have been having about anyone’s role in the church that is where I think that we can learn through the struggles of the early church and the changes that need to take place in today’s church. The church developed over time in the bible yet it seems our churches go from one extreme to another but from what I see the final authority is what is being left out while we argue of the testimonies in the bible. The bible is not the final authority, God is and I believe that is what N.T. Wright was alluding to.

  12. macsisson22 says:

    poohpity I have to say I disagree with the idea that the Scriptures are not to be taken literally. And motorcycleminister, I have to say I agree with you 95%, and here is why.

    Early in my salvation I heard a “minister” say, “The Bible is not the truth, it is a bood of truths!” He then went on to say that Adam and Eve were not real people, the story of the garden was given to help us to try and fathom why we see sin all around us. He went on to say that Jonah was not a real person because no one could survive for three days and nights in the belly of a fish!

    The conclusion that I came to in my infancy was that either Jesus was a liar and I might as well throw the book away, or this MAN was truly deceived.

    Jesus said, “As it was in the beginning …, and As Jonah was in the belly ….”

    Is Jesus a liar? Should I have stayed in a church that does not believe the scriptures and just put on my huggy bear kissy face attitude?

    If we are not to take it litterally and naturally, who picks and chooses the parts that we should? I for one would like to take all of the sections that convict me or sin and simply generalize them to the world around me. But I cannot and will not! I need a savior!

    BTW, It seems to me that many of us are forgetting that there is another aspect of revelation; the natural.

  13. sitsathisfeet says:

    It is not surprising that there is this debate of whether or how to take the Living word as real and actual, or simply as “stories” from long ago. In the Bible it says we can not even tell the signs of the times, as we might tell the weather! I told my youngest recently when he “explained” a Bible story recently to me; He said Oh this happened a long time ago, and I said Yes, but Jesus is alive and living today in our hearts and our lives, and He is our help and provider just as He was in the Bible “story”, and he agreed. Out of the mouth of babes. Part of my Faith is believing what it says in the Word. I can’t explain it, but only by the power of the Holy Spirit can I hope to understand and apply to my life the deep Spiritual things of God. Every week I go to church and Bible study as the Pastor and others “explain” the passages of the Bible to us Who is your Sanbalot? What was Paul really saying to the Corinthians in Chapter II Verses 3:1-6, What is Revival? How can I be humble and repent before God ? And much more, and I have found it to be very helpful. However, all of it does me no good if I lack the simple faith to believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No other foundation, wisdom, study, science, knowledge or anything can help me there. And by the power of his grace living and reading the Living word each day.

  14. Mart De Haan says:

    rdrcomp,
    Yes, by “high view” I mean what you say, ““high view” is that the scriptures are God-breathed, inerrant, infallible, authoritative, and more….” My whole life is given to that conviction.

    However, my concern is that the higher the value/worship we give to anything, the more damage we can do by its misuse.

    I don’t think any of us can imagine the damage that individuals and churches have done over the years by misusing the Bible to send women back into abusive marriages; by subjecting church congregations to abusive spiritual authority; by using the Bible to defend slavery and racism; or by misusing the Bible to reinforce the permanence of marriage to the point that hard-hearted, covenant breaking spouses are given a license to betray the trust of the relationship. Yet, in each of these cases, those who have questioned the traditional view of “what Scripture says and means” have been marked as liberal.

    The whole purpose of this site is to share a faith that is built on the right use of Scripture rather than its misuse. To get there, everyone and all views need to be tested and held accountable to the whole counsel of God.

  15. Mart De Haan says:

    poohpity, Wright is thoroughly committed to the deity of Christ. I did a quick scan and found in the article his comment that “God wants the church to…use the authority of scripture to declare to the world authoritatively that Jesus is Lord.”

    Your concern, and that of rdrcomp, is a reminder to me of how important it is to reaffirm foundational issues when working on “the roof.” :-).

  16. NDgal says:

    This article seems so contradictory to me. In some ways, his conclusion seems so different than the body of his argument. Maybe I’m just a little slow (and overly sensitive) today.

    It would take way too much of my little opinions to warrant a thesis on whether the Bible is authoritative or not… or what makes something infallible, for that matter. When I read the Bible, I read it like someone much wiser than myself is teaching me. So when I am told a story in which the mustard seed is referenced as being the “smallest of seeds”, I don’t go challenging the author by saying “No. You are wrong. Actually the poppy seed is smaller yet.” I just get the overall meaning just the same.

    N.T. Wright alludes to the New Testament as being outdated culturally, and to that I’d say the past is pretense. The important things are all there. Jesus quoted from the Old Testament when He walked the earth with us and we are told that after His return that all things will be revealed to us. Not everything is meant to be clear today. The Bible is what we HAVE today (along with the Holy Spirit and our connections to God with prayer). I haven’t seen God in a pillar of fire lately and Gabriel hasn’t broken down my door, but I have something just as good. It is true that we are the hands and feet of Christ here on earth, but I would hesitate to say we have MORE authority than the Word.

    I guess that is why I don’t think it necessary to think up a fifth act. I don’t need to improvise when it has always been there for me. And I don’t think Paul or Jesus treated the Old Testament with “cavalier” freedom. Sometimes our teachings collide and at those times, we do the wisest and best thing we can.

    Some of the language that is used in this article I found hurtful… like referring to the Bible as a “rule book” or that “God is not a celestial information service” (but I think the Bible is) or using the word infallible (even though it refers to ourselves but most often people think of the Bible when using that word) as a parallel to “blind and dumb” or the “rabid fundamentalist”. I may or may not be a fundamentalist (I have a problem with that term) but I certainly think I need to support all of my brothers and sisters in Christ, not just those that I agree with.

  17. SFDBWV says:

    In fairness to N.T. Wright, and Mart, I took the time to read the entire article aforementioned here.

    Whew!!!! I agree poohpity “too wordy”. The sum of what Bishop Wright wrote could be stated that God is the ultimate authority, that he gave that authority to Jesus, and that Jesus gave it to his believers.

    I started writting quotes from his article. let me share a couple.
    ” God is not a celestial information service to whom you can apply for answers on difficult questions.”
    If Bishop Wright really believes his own statement above. Then for me he has lost all credentials to continue with his article. But continue he does.

    “Rather God’s authority vested in scripture is designed, as all God’s authority is designed, to liberate human beings, to judge and condem evil and sin in the world in order to set people free to be fully human.”
    Bishop Wright has missed the point that it was Jesus’s sacrifice that liberated man from sin and nothing else.
    I also fully disagree that the purpose of Jesus’s life, death and resurection is so that people can be fully human.
    Bishop Wright continues on by saying ” Jesus stated all authority is given to me”. “The auuthority of scripture must be understood within the context of God’s authority.”

    He started his article by stating the Bible had no authority then concluded that it did.

    Proverbs 26:12″ Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than in him.”

    Isaiah 5:21 “Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”

    James 1:5 ” If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

    Revelation 3:3 ” Remember therefore how thou hast recieved and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

    My conclusion concerning Bishop Wrights article is this, He can swallow a camel but strains at a gnat.

    Thanks Mart for the little exercise Mart.

  18. NDgal says:

    To Mart:
    Thank you for allowing us to respectfully bounce these issues around with each other in such a safe environment. I have grown in my faith since I’ve started reading your blog.

  19. Mart De Haan says:

    I’m sorry that the difficult subject matter of my post has caused some of you to wonder whether I have quoted a person who is not deeply committed to the authority of Scripture or to the deity of Christ. I agree that NT Wright is a difficult read and that his method is to take something apart that he doesn’t think others have assembled according to the book–before putting it back together again in a manner that he believes the owners manual calls for.

    But let me try again to illustrate the “missing act”. Or, in other words, let me try to illustrate the missing script that would tell each of us exactly how to align ourselves with the words and story of the Bible.

    I think we could agree that the whole true story of the Bible, together with many of its true sub plots, teaches us, among other things, to be patient in our faith as we wait on God. Each story shows us how men and women living in different times either did or did not show patience. Abraham and Sarah, for instance, gave up on patience when they used Hagar in their attempt to fulfill God’s promise of a son–by their own means.

    But now the question: Knowing as I do that the God of the Bible has asked others in every age to patiently wait on him, I recognize that patience of faith needs to be a part of my life today. Let’s also say that I recognize that this patience needs to come from the help of God’s Spirit.

    But what should this patience look like right now? Should I, for instance, patiently keep commenting in response to those who think I’m on a slippery slope away from Scripture–if I believe my purpose is, in fact, to live under the authority of the God of the Bible? Or should I stop typing and patiently wait on God to work in each of us? Or should I patiently wait one hour, or two, or three weeks before returning to the subject? Or should I show the patience of God by going on to other subjects? Or should I stop and pray for patience?

    I don’t mean to trivialize the issue of patience. I just mean that each of us, in our own circumstances, has to do our best to decide whether by working harder, or by working less, or something else, we are going to wait patiently on the Lord.

    Seems to me that we all have to use our own best judgment as to what patience, or love, or joy, or prayer etc. should look like in our individual circumstances today. That’s the “missing act” (i.e. a missing script telling me exactly how to show patience right now) that I think Wright was suggesting.

    If this is still confusing. Let’s forget it and talk about something else tomorrow :-).

  20. TruthSeeker12 says:

    First of all, i’d like to at least introduce myself since I’m new here. I’ve come here in hopes of learning more about the bible, but also i was wondering if you can talk to people more directly on here(messages, and not just comments).

    I often try to talk to people about God, but it’s not always easy when you don’t know what to say, and in fact I came here for that exact reason.

    Right now there are some people questioning me about some things in old testemant such as this comment i recieved here on youtube

    “Of the Old Testament regulations my favorite is Deuteronomy 22:12 and Numbers 15:37, which order people to have tassels (with blue thread) in the four corners of their garments.

    Unfortunately it isn’t explained how to proceed if one doesn’t have four-cornered garments. This is right next to killing people for not being a virgin when getting married or gathering firewood on Sabbath, clearly not to be taken lightly.

    Can it be God never envisioned people wearing garments without four corners?”

  21. wretch-like-me says:

    Marti, you have really challenged me with this one…
    It has taken me two days of ‘focus’ to stay with this lecture. I am sure it is much easier to understand when heard and has the benefit of visual clues. He reminds me of so many academics I have heard speak.

    To all who have commented: I do appreciate your earnest efforts to interpret what Wright has to say… and in a way it makes me think about the similarities each of us experiences with the scriptures. We all are sincere in trying to understand, grasp and use the truths of the bible. But, each of us can only do so in light of our personal experience.

    As we gain experience, we gain new ‘hooks’ to hang knowledge. The more we read scripture and mature in Christ, the more the Holy Spirit ‘reveals’ to us.

    When I was in college, I learned there were several levels in learning. Most basic is ‘rote’ or repetition of facts. Somewhere in the middle is recogizing when to apply those facts/rules and applying the right rule for the situation. The highest level of knowledge is synthasizing the rules into daily practice and evaluating how effective we have been in the process.

    I believe that those principles are at work in the Bible, as well. I believe that was the purpose the Reformers had in mind when they sacrificed all to put the scriptures into the language of the people. Up to that time the ‘church’ controlled the bible by keeping it in latin and limited to interpretation by priests.

    The struggle to make the bible available to everyman has come full circle. It is now the most translated, most available of all books. Yet, those of us who have the most access seem to afford it the least time in our lives and where it is outlawed it has the most appeal.

    What Professor Wright is having such a hard time saying is…Don’t let someone else tell you what the bible says or how to apply it! Immerse yourself in it, bathe in it and let the Holy Spirit lead you to a full and complete understanding. That cannot happen in one read. We have to continue to read it cover to cover to grasp the complete story and trust God to make HIS-story… My Story.

    “…We read scripture not in order to avoid life and growth. God forgive us that we have done that in some of our traditions. Nor do we read scripture in order to avoid thought and action, or to be crushed, or squeezed, or confined into a de-humanizing shape, but in order to die and rise again in our minds. Because, again and again, we find that, as we submit to scripture, as we wrestle with the bits that don’t make sense, and as we hand through to a new sense that we haven’t thought of or seen before, God breathes into our nostrils his own breath—the breath of life. And we become living beings—a church recreated in his image, more fully human, thinking, alive beings…

    …God wants us to be people, not puppets; to love him with our mind as well as our soul and our strength. And it is scripture that enables us to do that, not by crushing us into an alien mould but by giving us the fully authoritative four acts, and the start of the fifth, which set us free to become the church afresh in each generation…

    (We must be)…people of the book in the Christian sense; people who are being remade, judged and remolded by the Spirit through scripture.”

    What is truly astounding is that throught apathy so many churches have handed the bible back to their ministers,’vicars’, ‘elders’, etc. and given away their privileged responsiblity to be transformed by its true authority… God Himself.

    What are your thoughts on that???

  22. daisymarygoldr says:

    Very interesting …I’m enjoying this conversation more than ever!

    Wretch-like-me, good thoughts! And this is for your brother Marti….

    Just because we cannot see it, let us not assume it as missing, Mart! The act appears as missing to us, not to Him? Are you suggesting that Abraham and Sarah surprised God by choosing to use Hagar? From a human view point, they did make a mistake but did God fail to provide for their error? Did Ishmael or Hagar die? Were they excluded from the promise?

    God knows our every step. He knows who will, and who will not. Every act of ours has been determined before we even arrived on the scene. He knows our framework, that we are made of dust, that we have a sinful nature. He does not expect us to be perfect. He has already perfected us in Christ. We make mistakes, yet “He works” all things (even our mistakes) together for good. All He wants in patience is our obedience and when we fail to obey, He requires us to stay obedient by our willingness to repent!

    BTW, the “missing script” tells us to show patience in all circumstances by choosing to “be still” and yes, we have to pray for it. The “Missing script” for love? Motorcycleminister above, summed it up perfectly “Love Him and others”. We love Him because He fulfilled every bit of the Law. When we love others, we complete what the law has been after all along. All the commandments ‘add’ up to: Love other people as well as you do yourself. Even if one is missing, the ‘sum total’ will not be love!

    Boys and girls, let us follow Christ and not a denomination, church group or human thinking…unless you believe we will represent ourselves before Him as reformers, RBC, or any other group. If we say we love Him we will obey His commandments which is found… not in nature macsisson22, but only in His Word!

  23. Ted M. Gossard says:

    Pooh Pity, Sorry I haven’t gotten back sooner, and I know Mart answered.

    To say Jesus is a prophet is not to deny that he is more than a prophet. He is more than that, but he certainly fulfills the prophetic office. He is prophet, priest and king as the God-man. Just to clarify my position. Certainly Jesus is God’s final word as Hebrews 1 makes clear.

  24. poohpity says:

    Hey Mart,
    I was confused about that reference regarding Jesus, thank you for clearing it up for me. I know in the past you have not put my kudos to you for all to see but I hope you keep this one in. I have never questioned your God given knowledge of the Scriptures in fact I have enjoyed talking with you because of it. I enjoy being able to share my love of the Lord and His Word with people who have spiritual insight and I like being corrected when there is areas that I may not understand. Sometimes people can be rather challenging by their condemnation in misinterpreting what you say and if one has to defend themselves all the time it gets a little tiring. I think some times it is better to ignore till another day but that is not the way I usually handle things. I think I have an inner warrior to my personality and that is probably why I stay single, haven’t found anyone that accepts my leather and lace type persona.

    This was a real healthy discussion and next time pick someone who is an easier read, lol. :) Gosh you all really make my days a little brighter, thank you!

  25. pegramsdell says:

    Mart, I appreciate your patience with all of us. We need each other more now than ever, and this blog is awesome. I am blown away at some of the posts I read everyday.
    It is challenging and thought provoking and interesting to say the least.
    About Jesus being a prophet, all I can say is He is The Savior and The Lord and The Messiah and The Lamb and He was and is and will be. He IS The Word! ….and He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Never changing.

  26. SFDBWV says:

    wretch-like-me, man I can see why you are a teacher. Excellent commentary. Thank you for your explanation I enjoyed it a lot.

    Mart, I appologise if I seemed too hard on N.T.Wright. I am sure he is a man after the same truths as I. and I appologise to you if I offended you in any way. I love you brother and appreciate you very much.

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses have over my lifetime came to my door many times. I am always polite to them and have on a few occations had some Bible study with the men, here in my home. They don’t anymore. They gave up on me sometime back. They rely on the people they come visit house to house, to be ignorant of scripture. They addmitted that to me. My only defense against them was the Word of God and as it turns out that same Word can become a sword.

    It is how cults are born. Out of the ignorance of what the Bible says and means.

    You and RBC, and many here on the blog are doing a great job for Christ. I feel out of place often. I appreciate being able to come in and out as time allows.I also haven’t heard from Robert for a long time. I hope he’s ok and still out there.

    Mart, you make the subject that God leads you to. I’ll do my best to keep up.

    Steve

  27. sitsathisfeet says:

    Mart Don’t give up on me (us) I don’t think we need to be fed milk, instead of meat. And the Lord has equipped us with what is necessary for every good work. When I went to Bible study class today we were studying these verses, which fit in with our conversation. II Corinthians 3:13-16 (NIV) We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, BECAUSE ONLY IN CHRIST IT IS TAKEN AWAY. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. And it goes on, but my point is even the deep Spiritual truths and understanding are accessible to us through Jesus, the Word and God’s Holy Spirit. So let us not be like the dull minded, but open ourselves up to the whole counsel and leading of our Lord. Thank you for this blog, and the patience to say all the foolish things, which the Lord can make wise.

  28. Mart De Haan says:

    Hey, thank you all for your patience with me and for being willing to wade into this together.

  29. daisymarygoldr says:

    TruthSeeker12,
    Good Q and a good attempt to answer it! However, you missed the main point here… the tassel. Every time the Israelites saw those tassels, they were to remember their responsibility to obey God. (Numbers 15:39)

    Today, we have the Holy Spirit who constantly reminds us to obey God. In fact, in Matthew 23:5 Jesus did not consider it cool to have extra long tassels.

    So, we do not bother about wearing garments with four corners but should listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit and obey God!

  30. DarleneJoy says:

    Wow, what a discussion! I haven’t had a chance to read the article, but I know that for myself, it is far too easy to be influenced by what someone says. I am learning (slowly and continually) to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit in my soul as I read God’s Word. Sometimes what other people say is in agreement, and sometimes not. But the Word of God needs to be my guide – nothing else. I say “needs to be” because sometimes I still find myself looking to others for answers to things I don’t understand. Please don’t misunderstand – we need each other to help us along in our journey of understanding, and probably men and women who have spent many more years than myself studying God’s Word have insights that I have not seen. But even when someone shares something that is enlightening, I believe we still must do our own study of God’s Word.

    I agree with Mart that the Bible doesn’t tell us exactly HOW to apply every truth – that is where we need to listen to the Holy Spirit. In Romans 14, the apostle Paul highlighted differences between people and emphasized that one way was not necessarily the right way for absolutely everyone. God sees the heart and I believe that if we are truly seeking truth and listening to His voice, we will know what He wants us to do.

    Some of the applications are clearer than others, but thanks be to God for opening the way to Him so that we can bring our questions to Him and find out the way He wants us to live!

  31. CTYinKNX says:

    Wow, this issue sure seems to raise a lot of controversy and emotion. I keep thinking that everyone posting with all the different views all seem to have sincerely held opinions. I don’t even know how to start to untangle all of these issues, but it sure makes me thankful that God judges not on outward appearances, but looks on the heart. I trust that He will make Himself known to a heart sincerely seeking Him.

  32. SFDBWV says:

    “The Missing Script of Application”

    I’m guessing Mart has changed the Title of the discussion so as to no inflame some of us that the intent of the article is not to “change” what the Bible says but rather to say what it doesn’t.

    In order to understand Revelation, I must have an understanding of all thoes difficult rituals found in the Books of the Torah. They not only are a part of future events but are events in Heaven itself. From Genesis to Revelation all is connected and relevant to any time.

    Many excellent comments have stated that to love God with all our hearts and souls and to love others as we love ourselves, fulfills the law of the prophets. Followed by “Now” taking up our cross and following Jesus the Christ.

    Here is where, to me, the application of all I have learned from scripture begins. Thank God, Jesus didn’t leave it there. He said he would not leave us alone as orphans. He has sent the HOLY SPIRIT. To lead us into all truths.

    The work of the HOLY SPIRIT is the missing part of understanding scripture. HE (the HOLY SPIRIT) will open up understanding of the scripture. But the wonderful thing about it is that only God knows where your heart is and when you are ready to understand a truth of scripture HE is faithfull to open your heart just at the right time. You are unaware but he knows when that time is. Which explains to me why so many get a different understanding out of the same verse. It is a very very personal relationship each has with GOD.

    Just as my old friend I mentioned earlier, couldn’t agree with me on a spiritual matter. It was because he or I hadn’t grown up enough to be able to take in this truth of God. But if we are faithful to keep searching by reading his Word and meditating on it with prayer. The Holy Spirit is faithful to teach us. As Mart has eluded to ,we must have the same patience with God as God has with us.

    I must look at every Word in Scripture and before I impatiently judge it as outdated, explore through the power of prayer and the teaching of the Holy Spirit how I am to use it for CHRIST.

    Revelation tells me I am to return to my first love. And warns me, by saying (Rev 22:19) “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

    Interpetation and application must be handled very very carefully.

  33. TruthSeeker12 says:

    Daisy,
    Thanks for answering my question. It was taking a while, but that’s the good thing about God, you never have to worry about being overlooked =]

    I have one more question(for the time being).why is it that God sent Jesus to change some things that God had already told His people to do, and how do we know wich ones exactly He wants changed?

    I read over somebody’s comment saying we should “look at wich commands He cancels out”. I believe this is a good idea, but I think there’s more “canceled out”, perhaps, than what it implies in the Bible.

    I have been reading the Bible rather slowly, but I’m almost through it. unfortunately, i never took the time to examine it. I thought if I didn’t understand something, just know God has a good reason for why it’s there and move on. But now I know that it hurts others who have the same questions and aren’t saved. I now understand why it’s so important that we all observe the Bible carefully.

    I will probably be coming here frequently to learn, and answer any questions that I might already know the answer to(or at least have an opinion on it).

  34. daisymarygoldr says:

    Hey TruthSeeker12, you are right, God never overlooks because those who seek the truth will always find it and the best way to learn is to ask and answer!

    Jesus did not change anything…but came to do everything that God’s people could not do. Since Jesus fulfilled God’s requirements of all the OT rituals on our behalf, today we do not do or observe those things. The only thing that God commands us to do is to love Him and love our neighbor as ourselves.

    However, the commandment to love does not “cancel out” all the other commandments. Now, if we love others, we will not— sleep with another person’s spouse, take someone’s life, take what isn’t ours, covet what we don’t have or cause harm to others. In loving others we are actually obeying all the other commandments too.

    So, you are right again….the dietary and ceremonial laws are cancelled out in Christ, but we still observe the 10 commandments when we love God and others!

  35. TruthSeeker12 says:

    Thank you again for answering me, but I have one more question, and then I think I’ll be done with this certain topic for a while(unless there’s more God intends for me to learn while about this subject while I’m still here). then why did God command His people to kill people for certain punishments, if afterward(the time of Jesus) He tells them not to? 1 example of this can be found in DEUTERONOMY 21 Verse 18-21

  36. daisymarygoldr says:

    No problem, but please, don’t just depend on human wisdom. It is best to go back to the Bible and learn from God…He always has the right answer. Jesus was killed on the cross on our behalf, hence Deut 21:18-21 is cancelled out in Christ!

  37. TruthSeeker12 says:

    Well, I am exited about being led to this place(I believe God led me here), and I do think there’s alot to be learned from everybody here, but you’re right. I remember when I used to go into deep thought about what I recently read, or about something somebody said, and I don’t think it would hurt to do so again, and have God guide me.

  38. Mike says:

    To Truthseeker12,
    About God commanding execution for certain sins: I was thinking about that just this morning when I read the story of Achan and how Joshua had him AND his sons AND his daughters stoned to death. Man, I thought, how is that any different than what we see terrorists and radical Muslims doing today? Then it dawned on me that back then people paid for their own sins, and the penalty was death. Because of Jesus, we don’t pay for our own sins if we bring them to Jesus and place them under His blood. He was executed for the sins that I should be executed for.

  39. TruthSeeker12 says:

    Mike,
    To tell the truth, I’ve never thought of the fact that Jesus died for us physicly and spiritally until Daisymarygoldr mentioned this, i wonder that if becuz they recieved punishment for their sin that God gave them, if they still went to heaven even though Jesus had not died for them, but they died for their own sins. If Jesus hadn’t died for us already, then i’d probably be dead many times over by now lol.

  40. l8dydi08 says:

    Everything the Bible says is true. Everything that God did in the lives of men He created is right. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Our faith (what we believe about God’s Son Jesus)is what our salvation is based on. Without it we have no hope. This world’s system and what it stands for is sure proof that we need a Savior, and everything the Word of God says is true. Spiritually-blind folk will never uhderstand anything about God, so they try to explain it away. Either you believe and except Jesus, or you can be used by Satan and end up with him eternally. Jesus, the same, today, yesterday, and forever more, whether we believe it or not.

  41. desert rose says:

    Mart, thank you so very much for what you have written. I have seen the precious Word of God taken out of content and used to control and abuse church members. When the pastor was confronted about his extra-marital affairs – he said “I know I have sinned, but God says in I John 1:9 if ‘we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.” This man misused the scripture and had his small congretation totally under his control. It wasn’t until God revealed to me this contradiction of scripture and the application thereof – that I realized that this man was wrong. He knew thousands of verses, read his Bible through 20-25 times a year – but you would not believe the damage he has done. I can’t go to church right now because I am suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and it is causing a form of dementia and cognitive problems. I am not the only one of his previous congregration to go through this ordeal. The Word of God has become so precious to me and I get very upset when it is used in error.

    I don’t know enough about what every one wrote and I can’t comprehend it all right now; but I agree that the greatest commandment God gave us should be our guide and anchor in these troubled times we live in.

    Thank you again, so very much, for bringing out the points you did. This man used scripture to keep us from reading newspapers, having a TV, listening to radio, wearing slacks (women), not cutting our hair, not wearing jewelry, not wearing sandles and the list goes on and on and on and on.

    I doubt any one else will come back to this blog to read my comments as it is already several days old, but I am at least thankful that I can say “Thanks to you.”

  42. Mart De Haan says:

    desert rose, what a nightmare. And what grace the Lord has given you to be able to find comfort in the Scriptures in the midst of such disillusionment.

    You remind me of Rom 15:4 that says, For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.”

  43. Mike says:

    You know, I think the problem many of us are having with this article may be due to a misreading of the title. Rather than reading it as a challenge, “How can the Bible [possibly] be Authoritative.” I read it as “How can the Bible be Authoritative? [Well, let me show you how.]” And the author goes on for 20 pages, proving that the bible is still authoritative. I think he’s providing an authoratative, apologetic answer to the liberal who thinks that the bible is in fact no longer authoritative. In other words he’s answering the question in the affirmative. I’m not going to reprint it here, but read the second paragraph of the article very closely. I think that Wright is coming down squarely on the the side of an authortative word of God, and he’s laying his case out of just how he’s going to address the question of “How can the Bible be Authoritative?” “Well, get your glasses and some coffee and hold on for the next 20 pages, and I’ll show just how authoritative it is.”

  44. Mike says:

    Is anyone still monitoring this thread?!? I am on page 13 of 20 of the article Mart posted, and it is excellent. Wright is right on target. He clearly proclaims the authority of the scriptures, but in a way that sets us free. He also clearly proclaims the Lordship of Jesus Christ. You must read the article slowly, and with a highlighter. If you haven’t read it, please do. You won’t regret it.

  45. poohpity says:

    Hey Mike,
    You hang in there, you are sure persistent. I find that Wright was a little to wordy, LOL. At least with the bible you can find easier to read translations.

  46. david and christine wade says:

    Prior to utilizing any man’s works regarding the Bible and it’s applications, I examine his character for Biblical compliance. Seen in this light, I have a hard time crediting Wright with complete credibility.

    It is difficult for any one with a high media profile to be judged correct in his convictions. So much is spun for the sake of circulation that one may never read the absolute truth. However, Wright is not Biblically right when he favors euthanasia for the elderly or the infirmed, nor when approves of abortion. He does not approve of gay marriage in the clergy of the church of England or their condoning such relationships. It is not clear where he stands on membership for gays, but I suspect he favors it. Just how do they give unqualified Communion?

    On the other hand, J. S. Spong is critical of him – a positive if there ever was one.

    Not being a theologian, I must side with Piper on the correctness of Wright.

    http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/826_interview_with_piper_on_wright_pt_5/ (from wikipedia.)

    Of course the Bible is authoritative – it must be followed as accurately as possible. This is accomplished with the Holy spirit as guide – otherwise we will be led astray. When we attempt to water down His commands, we risk throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    As to the application of NT Biblical traditions, I believe that must be left up to individual congregations or denominations. Traditional Anabaptists practice what may be considered Biblical legalism, yet it works – and well – for them. Holiness is encouraged and effectively practiced. Many sects have become Pharisaical over time, but the principles, when led by The Spirit of God, produce devout evangelical Christians.

    Dave

Leave a Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.