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Better than Gold

Do we associate wisdom with  Confucius or Buddha rather than with Jesus and Paul?

If so, we might miss the significance of what Solomon recommends when he writes, “Happy is the person who finds wisdom and gains understanding. For the profit of wisdom is better than silver, and her wages are better than gold. Wisdom is more precious than rubies; nothing you desire can compare with her” (Prov 3:13-15).

Even if we come to know Jesus as the  personification of wisdom, who can say that accepting him automatically makes us good or wise (even though he declares us so)?  Christ himself acknowledged that the citizens of the world are often wiser in what they are trying to do than the citizens of heaven are in what they are trying to accomplish (Luke 16:8).

If wisdom, by definition, is the ability to use knowledge to reach a desired goal, then examples of knowledge without wisdom are not hard to find in:

  1. Controlling or passive husbands
  2. Angry or mindlessly submissive wives
  3. Spiritual leaders who lord it over their “flocks”
  4. Congregations who place unreasonable expectations on their leaders
  5. A failure to plan for the future while waiting for the return of Jesus
  6. Partisan political wrangling where everyone talks without listening

Maybe I’m writing this because I’ve made all of the mistakes. Am a wanna be follower of Christ  who all too often acts as dumb as an animal. More than I like to admit, I can identify with Agur, the author of the 30th chapter of Proverbs who writes, “Surely I am more stupid than any man, And do not have the understanding of a man. I neither learned wisdom nor have knowledge of the Holy One.”

Admittedly, wisdom helps us see what we don’t know. Maybe that was part of what was happening to Agur. After all, he wasn’t as foolish as he apparently felt. He went on to ask for something better than gold when he prayed, “O God, I beg two favors from you before I die. First, help me never to tell a lie. Second, give me neither poverty nor riches! Give me just enough to satisfy my needs. For if I grow rich, I may deny you and say, “Who is the LORD?” And if I am too poor, I may steal and thus insult God’s holy name” (Prov 30:7-9 NLT).

The book, and eventually the Jesus who gives us such insight are really neither East or West. They come from “the land in between”– the region of the Middle East, which is like an ancient land bridge between Eastern and Western cultures. Just as importantly, the New Testament has more emphasis on wisdom, and the Old Testament has more emphasis on knowledge, than we might think.

Together they leave us with the conclusion that we need knowledge/truth as we need light and wisdom as we need love. Maybe that’s why the New Testament author James emphasizes how ready God is to give wisdom to those who want to do the will of God (James 1:5)… and why he goes on to carefully and methodically describe what Christ-filled, relational wisdom looks like.

According to James, wisdom is recognizable. It is “pure (i.e. good and loving in motive), then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield (to reason and the truth), full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy” (James 3:15,16).

Why do we so desperately need such wisdom? Because in our present broken state, where everyone, every relationship, and everything around us tends to break and deteriorate, declaring how things ought to and should be– may involve knowledge– but not the wisdom that is needed.

What is called for is the kind of wise heart that James describes in every area of our brokenness. It is the kind of wisdom that requires us to ask God’s help– by inviting the Spirit of Jesus to help us listen to the motives of our own heart…to listen to the words and hearts of one another, and to listen even more carefully to the words and heart of our God– before jumping to our ready made conclusions…


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50 Responses to “Better than Gold”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, It would appear a great deal of effort and thought went into todays topic. Our last topic being about money and this one being of something more valuable than gold….Wisdom.

    East or west, wisdom is recognized where ever it is heard.

    Plato (western) said, “A wise man speaks because he has something to say, A foolish man speaks because he has to say something.”

    I love good quotes. They can cut to the chase and deliver the message in short understood order.

    I would also agree with Agur, for God to meet his needs and neither make him rich nor poor. (middle class)

    It is another wonder that God has promised us that any who seek wisdom, God will give it liberally to all.

    In the first Psalm we hear that” blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of sinners nor sitteth in the seat of the scournful.”

    This is wisdom.

    Most of us will agree that patience is a virtue taught through adversity.

    What then teaches us wisdom?

    For God is not a genie that grants wishes nor power to us. But He gives and grants to us, through the actions of life.

    Proverbs1: states that “the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.”… the beginning…

    Proverbs also spends a good deal of effort trying to reach young people. Because if the young will seek wisdom, they will have less problems in life.

    What then for the children of foolish men? what do they learn from? Social problems exist because people scoff at “Biblical wisdom” and rather adopt a false book of “knowledge” (the tree)

    So it would seem God teaches us wisdom through out life… if we learn , if we listen, if we will be taught. To and by Him.

    If the young have no respect for the learned wisdom of their elders, then they will not learn and be forced to learn through the trials of life, instead.

  2. poohpity says:

    I hope that through the storms of life I have learned the lesson about jumping to conclusions. At times it seems that people judge or criticize based on their own thoughts or motives which cause them to look at others in that light and jump to conclusions quickly rather than another of James lessons about listening rather than speaking in haste. I have had many and I mean many people who jump to conclusions rather than weighing the evidence or watching things with discerning eyes. It is a shame and a real misfortune for them to act in this manner because they miss the truth. I have to admit that even though I have learned this lesson I still am quick at times to jump to conclusions without all the facts. Is there a gold medal for jumping to conclusions because I do not want to compete for that one, it really causes a lot of unwarrantable problems for all involved.

    Wisdom and knowledge are gained by watching and experiencing life. We are given an abundance of both in the scriptures only to repeat the same lessons over and over again without life application and practice it is for not.

    On the political side when someone starts a conversation over some of the latest things going on I always wonder if they are an informed person or just go on what is on a TV show. I have found that most form their conclusions by how things are going to effect things in the moment rather than a long term solution and get really scared at how many pay really no attention to the long term implications of decisions made so quickly. I try and practice praying and waiting for the answer rather than making something happen before I have gained the wisdom needed to make an informed decision.

    We have so much information available to us today to be able to look at all the sides but it seems that many especially when it comes to the bible listen to leaders rather than reading for themselves and looking to the Holy Spirit for guidance and come off with the most airy fairy beliefs.

    Well just for today how many are going to try and win the gold medal for jumping to conclusions or running a good race and just finishing with Glory to God to one day toss those crowns at His feet.

  3. refump says:

    As I think about wisdom one of the questions that comes to mind is, does wisdom come from experience (hard times) or do we just pray for it & God instantly fills us with it if our heart is right with God? It seems like Solomon’s heart was right with God when he prayed & asked for wisdom & he was instantly bestowed with wisdom. Wisdom in general seems to be associated with age which would indicate experience is involved. How would I know if I had wisdom? I am not sure I really know what wisdom is which probably means I don’t have it. I need to meditate on this more as I look forward to everyone’s posts on this to help my understanding.

  4. wretch-like-me says:

    I cant remember where I first heard it but it stuck.

    “The difference between wisdom and knowledge is experience. A wise person learns to acquire knowledge and apply it without having to experience failure.”

    Steve, I liked what you said regarding the ‘false book’ of knowledge (the tree). It strikes a chord with my soul realizing that God, Our Good Father, wants us to have wisdom without having to experience sin.

    Marti, this is another well-orchestrated dialogue. I wish more ‘world-leaders’ could have your counsel.

    Huggs
    frank

  5. Loretta Beavis says:

    1Corinthians 3:18-20 (NKJ) “Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, ‘He catches the wise in their own craftiness (Job 5:13); and again ‘The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.’ (Psalm 94:11)”

    When I feel too insecure, unfortunately, I can really roll out some “wisdom” about others that ends up keeping me from applying some Godly wisdom to my self first, (rather than my own). So, I have been making effort to let God help me be foolish His way to be the wizen I wanna be.

    Wisdom defined … I would add, from my ancient Webster’s: power of judging rightly and following the soundest course of action, based on knowledge, experience, understanding.

    I have a lot of mortal wisdom about doing activities that are a part of human events. But Godly wisdom-power to judge rightly…comes from God alone.

    Matthew 16:13-17 (NKJ)
    ( “… ‘Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?’ So they said, ‘Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’ He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter answered and said, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”

    In waiting on God for a change in my marriage circumstances, I had started to “look” at my spouse’s behavior and I have “heard” God say, in my heart, that I am “hearing and seeing” myself … doing all the stupid, destructive, self-wise things while God waited on me. What a revelation. Not long after I got that wisdom, he wanted to quit drinking enough that he went for medical counsel, attends AA and has gone about a month without alcohol, he says.

    It’s like his life couldn’t begin to be changed by God until I finished the same type of change in mine. I believe all of your prayers helped lift him up; because I don’t believe I prayed enough for him, just about him.

    Proverbs 25:11,12 (NKJ) A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in settings of silver. Like an earring of gold and an ornament of fine gold Is a wise rebuker to an obedient ear.

    I love my Jesus.

  6. SFDBWV says:

    refump, I just thought I would give you some thoughts to ponder.

    When Moses ask Pharaoh to allow the Hebrews to leave, he actually wanted to. But it was God Himself who hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

    Today we have the anointing of the Holy Spirit. God, whom can lead us into all wisdom if we listen. Discernment being one of the gifts of the Spirit.

    When Solomon ask for wisdom, he was actually asking for divine guidence in all matters. God granted his request. So King Solomon had God with him, it showed as if it were Solomon who was wise. But the wisdom came from God. Solomon was “wise” enough to ask for this, and if any ask for this, God is ready to be our partner in all our thoughts and decisions.

    Just some thoughts.

  7. daisymarygoldr says:

    Loretta Beavis, your comments are a blessing to me especially what you shared about Prov 31 and its application beyond the mortal marriage relationship. Praying for you and your marriage…

    Very well articulated post and comments on Wisdom- more precious than Gold and I am listening to your emphasis to listen!

    “Together they leave us with the conclusion that we need knowledge/truth as we need light… and wisdom as we need love”

    Knowledge/truth ‘about’ God is what I gain from reading the Bible and it is common to all of God’s children. As I grew up, knowledge ‘of’ God gained an understanding and was directly related to my own personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the light…

    …but with the help of the Holy Spirit every time when I try to grasp and know how deep the love of Christ is, regardless of age or experience, it surpasses all knowledge that I had gained.

    Wisdom… Yes, the fear of the Lord is (just) the beginning of wisdom but then… as a wanna be follower of Christ — miserably messed up in countless mistakes and muddled with constant failures, my broken sinful being is stilled in silence when I consider that…

    “… God makes sure that we all experience what it means to be outside so that He can personally open the door and welcome us back in. Have you ever come on anything quite like this extravagant generosity of God, this deep, deep wisdom? …” (Rom11: 32- 33 The Msg).

    So, this ultimate knowledge of His precious love towards us is simply too wonderful for me…How can I keep it quiet and not declare that…

    “Everything comes from Him; Everything happens through Him; Everything ends up in Him…” (Rom11: 36 The Msg)?

  8. HEY REV says:

    Very well put sfdbwv in your belief and than your input to refump.

    refump: I learned many years ago when I really needed wisdom in a particular area (and still do)that I sought God continually and said I would not let up till I knew that how it all turned out it was of Him. Well it did turn out exceptionally well and here is how He taught me then and I still use it today.

    God had me turn to James chapter three and verse seventeen.(3:17) (put my finger there)
    and told me not to read it untill I read James chapter one and verse five (1:5) FIRST, than go back to 3:17.

    Go back and forth between 1:5 than 3:17 and told me to read it over and over till it came alive into my heart. I cannot tell you how many times and how long I read it ( think in a m,atter of many months) but very slowly the deep things of those two verses came so alive even till today.

    We ask for WISDOM and God will GIVE IT, His way only, but 3:17 is waht brings it to such light. It first is PURE and Prov 30 says all of God’s word is pure. So some where between the two covers all of Scripture is pure.
    Than I love the next line: is “PEACEABLE”
    I don’t want to take any time from others to continue but if there is any slight chance that I do not have the peace about a matter God knows how soon I need the request. Sure I may feel I need it “RIGHT NOW” but God knows otherwise.

    At least check this out for yourself. If not so than SO BE IT.

    Loretta Beavis:
    Praise the Lord for answers in your issues.
    To God be all the Glory

    rev

    P.S I love this blog because you all have good comments/knowledge and many things for me to think about. Thanks to all and to you Mart for bringing it up.

  9. JRH says:

    Job 12:12 Wisdom belongs to the aged, and understanding to the old.

    Job 12:13 But true wisdom and power are found in God; counsel and understanding are his.

    One definition of wisdom is… a wise attitude, belief, or course of action.

    I think that as long as I have enough wisdom to trust and believe in GOD and my lifestyle and attitude reflect that belief….He will grant me the wisdom necessary to make the right decisions in my everyday life for all my years…

  10. BobbiLee says:

    Loretta,

    Thank you for your wonderful insights. When you said, “. . . his life couldn’t begin to be changed by God until I finished the same type of change in mine. . . . because I don’t believe I prayed enough for him, just about him.”

    Now, that’s a statement that really hits home. I think that too much of the time we do just that for who we pray for – about, but not for.

    Truth/knowledge is something that we can gain much of, while wisdom is born from that knowledge as we listen to God.

    Since Scripture connects Truth and Grace, is there ever a time when we have much knowledge/truth and we have to wait for a season, (maybe be put on the “back burner”), while our Grace catches up? It seems like God arranges our circumstances to allow the “catching up” process of Grace to point us to true wisdom.

  11. praisehimalleluia says:

    Yes, many a times in life I solely depended upon my understanding and failed to humble myself and just wait on the Lord. Sometimes this comes ringing in my ear “Be still and know, that I am GOD.”

    I realised that what God wants and planned in our lives work best for us, for He knows what is right at the appointed time.

    I seek Wisdom in understanding the Lord better and surrendering all to Him with total surrender, relying on His understanding, judgement and workings. Not mine, but Thy will be done on earth, Holy Lord!
    Amen

  12. chapmartin says:

    Sometimes I read these posts by Mart and wonder what the catalyst was for writing it. There is plenty of food for thought in this passage, and I am in the middle of a transition. God is altering the vision or call that He has placed upon my life. This post has been an encouragement to me as I wonder what God is up to in my life. I too feel like Agur as I try to make decisons regarding issues that have been sort of thrust upon me…Thanks, Mart.

  13. SFDBWV says:

    Daisy, You certainly possess a gift. It comes through on your posts.

    Your last line “Everything comes from Him; Everything happens through Him; Everything ends up in Him.” (Rom 11:36). Caught my attention. As I agree whole heartedly, it is all about Him.

    Yet it made me think, everything from beginning to end is about God but God’s actions and efforts are all about us. It is this entire story from creation through recreation, that ties man and God together and gives each and everyone of us worth and purpose.

    The soul of one person throughout all of existance from beginning to end, is worth all the effort and suffering God has went through for us. Simply because God sees each one of us as valuable.

    Would that we could all see the value, worth and purpose in each other. As God does.

  14. Sakoieta says:

    The difficulty I have in this discussion is that I often question Christians about the work of God. When God was doing all of his work in the Holy Land, etc. What was happening here on the North American continent? I happen to believe that if God is omnipresent, that his spirit was at work working in the whole world. Acknowledgement of the Creator is the beginning of wisdom and all understanding. Too many of the Christian faith believe this was a dark continent without influence of a loving, divine Creator, until those who called themselves Christians arrived here to bring the “light”. I couldn’t disagree more. The Creator has worked with our people long before European occupation and colonization. The coming of the colonizers have brought environmental degradation, genocide of a people and culture that we believe was not Creator ordained and certainly not associated with what we would call wisdom or knowledge. Many of our people’s first experience with the wisdom of the church, through Jesus, was having our children removed from their homes, in Jesus name. Being shot or murdered, in Jesus name. Having early ministers suppliment their income by killing little Indian children and selling their hair to the government, in Jesus name. Having our culture outlawed, in Jesus name, having our languages destroyed, in Jesus name. Having the our homes and communities destroyed, in Jesus name. None of this shows the beginning of wisdom or of knowledge. It blatantly defines itself as the supidity and ignorance of a people’s actions against a different race of people. Our teachings as Mohawks, taught us the very principles of relationship as outlined in Matthew. When you were naked we showed you how to clothe yourself. When you were sick we showed you which medicines healed you. When you were hungry we fed you. We offered these things to you. Your book states if we have done this to the least of you we have done it to the Creator, etc. Yet even today the church will not listen to the wisdom of Native people that came from our relationship with a loving and caring Creator, but continues to define us as less than Christian equalling an equation of, if they are not Christian they are also not Godly and therefore they are only worthy of destruction. So sad that our stories of how the Creator has given us understanding, wisdom and knowledge, have not been listened to and won’t be until the dominant society has virtually destroyed the earth. Those are my thoughts on the wisdom of the church.

  15. poohpity says:

    Hey welcome Sakoieta,

    I have written about this very same thing in past blogs because if one does not read the bible and stay close to the Lord it is so easy to take scripture and try to westernize it. In that zeal of trying to be Godly we have caused so much harm to so many which is contrary to what the bible says. Now missionaries have learned that when they take the Gospel to nations that first thing is to learn their language and translate the bible to their native tongue and allow them to experience God. It is so sad that this wisdom was not learned before. I for one believe the Native American culture is beautiful and God gave them a piece of Him before our ancestors ever showed up but in their desire to control showed how knowledge without wisdom can be cruel and no where shows the humility that God requires from us. Both sides made many mistakes and human beings are still in the practice of really blowing it. We fear things we do not understand.

    I believe at one point the earth was a solid land but later was broken into its current configuration but all peoples are from one Creator so we are all brothers and sisters which there are fights between them in every family sometimes it was taken to extremes which is where forgiveness is the wise thing to do. We all screw up. So much sorrow has come from the name of our God but that is not from Him but from each other and those that do not have the wisdom of God and do not know the word of God. Sad!!!

  16. sjd says:

    It is interesting to me to see that Paul’s prayers in Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 3 involve praying for wisdom and knowledge. In Ephesians 1 he prays that believers are to have a spirit of wisdom and revelation so that we may know Him better. He prays that we might know the hope to which He has called us, and to know the power in us.

    In Ephesians 3 he prays among other things that we would be able to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.

    Seems to me that the WISE thing to do would be spending time getting to know our LORD, to examine His love, and rest in it. Can’t do that without listening to Him speak to us through the WORD.

    As we know Jesus better and make ourselves available for Him to live through us, His Wisdom will be seen in us, rather than the horrific things that have been done in the name of Jesus as Sakoieta spoke of. It grieves me to see the lack of wisdom and knowledge that destroyed so many lives though the years.

    May each of us grow in the knowledge and wisdom of our Lord so that the true Jesus may be seen. May those who have been so harmed be able to see the true love of Christ that goes beyond my full comprehension.

    I too welcome you Sakoieta. Thank you for reminding us of our need to live by the true knowledge and wisdom. It is hard for me to imagine the pain and suffering that your people have experienced.

    Jesus must continue to be my focus, as unfortunately some have and continue to misrepresent Him so.

  17. Sakoieta says:

    We follow the same teaching, as Mohawks. The earth was at one time a solid bit of land. Our people have looked at the earth as the original oral Bible and we have studied it so that we follow the unwritten words Creator put in all of Creation. Job tells us to look at the earth and the earth will teach thee. Soloman, considered the wisest man to live, got his wisdom from understanding the natural unwritten law of the Creator, through the created order. All through out the Bible the created order is put forth as a teaching tool, as a place of knowledge. I believe we knew God in our own way since God has the ability to make himself known to those who seek him for He is not far from anyone of us. He also asigned to each of us our own lands and territories which we should inhabit. There were strict warnings against damage done to those lands and habitations. We read, “cursed are those who move their neighbors marker”. That has happened all through out the U.S. and Canada from day one, yet we constantly here ministers and followers maintain these countries were founded upon Godly principles. Couldn’t disagree more. Where then is the church and Christians, in it’s wisdom, standing up against a corrupt government that continues to deny the theft of land and resources as well as broken treaties, that has occurred as a result. Back in David’s time the Bible speaks of a famine that was in the land. David appealed to the Lord to end the famine and was told that the famine was because Saul, his predecessor, had broken a treaty and until the treaty was made right, the famine would continue. David approached the Mideonites to ask what would appease them in making restitution for Sauls breaking a treaty with them. They asked for seven of the finest men David had so they could hang them at a Harvest ceremony. David complied. The men were hung. God answered and the rains came. The famine ended and life returned to the land. I believe before the church or Christians have any integrity in working with our people as we missionize each other, these treaties need to be resolved. Restitution needs to be made and then once it is, I believe, we will see the U.S. and Canada return to prosperity. That will also give these two countries more wisdom in how to work with other countries they have violated agreements with. That is wisdom. That is using knowledge of how the human mind heals and can then begin to accept thoughts of approaching concepts of reconciliation, restitution and restoration. The difficulty we have as Native North American people, in healing, is that the trauma has not stopped. It has now become subtle in it’s action against our people. We still have legislation that denies us our heritage, our access to resources that were not bought, leased or paid for, but have been outright stolen. The church not only refuses to hold the government accountable, but condones and supports it’s actions on a daily basis. We are still the poorest of the poor in all but spirit. When we do our ceremonies we thank Creator for all colors of the human race that they may live, prosper, and be wise stewards of this Creation out of respect for the one who created it. I have sat in too many churches where I have heard prayers said for the extinguishment of our people as God’s divine destiny for this land. If God created us as Mohawks and said it was good and Jesus came to further God’s original instructions, by renewing the broken relationship between God and man, then we should be allowed to become more fulfilled Mohawks in God’s sight and the church’s, if it follows the will of God as it claims to, not less or exterminated as is the practice now, still today.

  18. BobbiLee says:

    Welcome Sakoieta,

    (I would love to know what your name means or stands for).

    You are so right in that terrible,irrevocable things have been done in the name of Christ. Down through the centuries men, and women, have violated His teachings and moral code. Unfortunately the dictates of a conquering people is to subjugate the conquered ones. I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that changes that concept. When Creator God sent His people, Israel, to conquer a land or people He told them to take the best of the spoil of war and to kill just about everyone else, often including women and children. Harsh? Absolutely, but it was only after those people utterly refused to turn to or acknowledge Creator God. His honor was at stake.

    When men who rule nations determine to go to war for the wrong reasons, chaos results. We live in a fallen, sinful world and until our Lord Jesus returns it will remain that way. All the peoples of this planet have a divine destiny: to believe in/trust in Messiah Jesus or not. No people group is better than any other people group in God’s sight. The Book of Romans chapter one is a key.

    This passage says that God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven to those who suppress the truth about Him. (Here is the Truth issue again). It goes on to say that mankind has no excuse to not know about Creator God: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

    When Jesus Christ said that, “I am the way, the truth and the life”, He was telling us that only through Him can the broken relationship between God and mankind be made right. Meanwhile, there will be wars, inequities, immorality and injustices.

    The “church” as you say’ that is allowing some of this is because the corporate church, the visible church, the administering church which allows and does these things is not always the Body of Christ which is a living organism, invisible, joined together in His Holy Spirit.

    We become brothers and sisters IN Christ and that family is often closer than our biological one. When Jesus sets His feet on the mountains of Jerusalem, then all the inequities committed through the ages will be finally resolved. Come Lord Jesus!

  19. daisymarygoldr says:

    Sakoieta, Thank you for adding your valuable thoughts to this discussion. I am extremely sad and sorry for the horrible acts done against you in the name of Jesus. Be comforted to know that God has taken it all into account and will certainly give you justice against the genocide, killings and the prayers for the destroying your people.

    You are absolutely right: “Acknowledgment of the Creator is the beginning of wisdom and all understanding comes from our relationship with a loving and caring Creator”. However, the loving divine Creator is not the same as His creatures. As you might very well know our physical eyes and minds cannot see or understand God who is Spirit. We are also spirits but because of sin our spirits are dead. Seems like you do have a good knowledge of The Bible… which says that it is not just Europeans but “all have sinned” and that the end result of sin is suffering death.

    Sakoieta, the dark and deadly forces that you mentioned, work to kill and destroy God’s beautiful creation and is the consequence of our sins of disobeying God. Sinful, dead, human flesh cannot see, understand or relate to the living Spirit of our Holy God. It is sin that has separated from God forever. It is sin that has separated people from each based on their color to consider each other as enemies. It is sin that has blinded us to the wisdom of God which created all human to be named as one family to love and live together as His children. When God is hidden and our dead spirits cannot know Him, we cannot enjoy a fulfilling relationship with an unknown and unseen Creator God. Can we?

    Thankfully, God who is love chose to reveal Himself and His wisdom, knowledge and truth to not just the Mohawks or Christians but ‘every’ human being… in the person of Jesus Christ. “Jesus is the image of the invisible God”. He is the light not just of the Holy Land or of the North American continent… but a light of the ‘whole world’. “All” those who accept Jesus and believe that He is God will walk in love, in His Light and will live with Him forever.

    Sakoieta, in your first post what you spoke of is human wisdom which shows us how to feed, clothe and heal our physical bodies temporarily. Eventually our bodies again become hungry, sick, naked, and we ultimately die….don’t we? Human wisdom and knowledge, therefore is limited and only leads to death.

    God’s true wisdom and knowledge gives us life. That wisdom of God is Jesus Christ who came into this world and shed His blood to cover/clothe the nakedness of our sins. His body was wounded on the cross so the wounds of our sins would be healed. He died and is alive so by faith in Him we can also have eternal life.

    …and this creation, continent or country that we see now is just temporary and will not remain forever. God is creating all things new. A new heaven and earth with a new land, a new country where… sinful people that are forgiven, chosen and called out from all continents, countries, lands and nations will live together in peaceful harmony.

    This group of people will no longer be identified as Native Americans or Africans or Americans or Asians or Europeans or Canadians or from the Mediterranean but all will be completely transformed into the image of Jesus to be ruled not by sin but by love.

    That special people is the Church— the place where God and His wisdom dwells with His people… and that my dear friend is a mystery that is hidden to the rich, great and the wise but revealed to the poor, least and the foolish!

    As you have such great knowledge, I want to reiterate what you already know that God loves you so much and longs to also have a real, loving, eternal relationship with you through Jesus who is the wisdom, the way, the truth and Life. Sakoieta, as others have expressed above please know that we all love you too! You and all your people are in my prayers… for God’s wisdom to fill you with real joy and peace!

  20. SFDBWV says:

    Are you Sakoieta, a Christian?

  21. saled says:

    “In our present broken state, . . declaring how things ought to and should be, involves knowledge but not the wisdom that is needed.” This is a great explanation for why so many of my best intentions have turned out to be failures.

    Sakoieta has captured our attention, and given us a great opportunity to listen. It is true that all native tribes in the U.S. and Canada have suffered the loss of a way of life. The very fact that these tribes have survived our attempts to assimilate them is, I believe, evidence of God’s intervention. The tribes in my area, Passamaquoddy and Penobscot, are in a unique situation in that their loss was recognized by the United States and under President Jimmy Carter, they were granted a settlement that gave them opportunity to buy land and make investments for their tribe. Opinions differ on how beneficial this has been. Sakoieta would probably say this settlement did not go far enough, and would probably be right. Many of the members of the tribes are still among the poorest of the poor in Washington County.

    I’m intrigued by the ideas of the U.S. and Canada returning to prosperity by making restitution to the tribes and of the mention of the ‘way the human mind heals.’ Thank you Sakoieta for giving us the opportunity to hear you.

  22. Sakoieta says:

    I am a Mohawk. I have grown up with and studied the teachings of the church as well as the teachings of my own people in the Longhouse. I do not call myself Christian nor do I follow the teachings of the church. I do believe in and follow the teachings of Creator as He has revealed himself to our culture and our people. I want to say this respectfully and not sound rude or inappropriate but this topic is not about me being Christian or not. It is about wisdom and where it might be found. Mart asked is it in Jesus or other wisdom teachings of different people of the earth. My points are that we believe, as Mohawks, that Creator has extended that wisdom to all of creation, if we will only look at the manner in which He has expressed it. It extends beyond Biblical scripture. Do I believe the Bible is the word of God? Yes I do. Do I believe the Bible is the exhaustive word of God? No I don’t. God has put His word into the creation for those who take the time and use their knowledge to read it as we, Mohawks have, for it was by His word that all things were created. I also believe that there was one who came to create the bridge back to Creator to reconnect us with God. But I also believe that much of the church has pulled Jesus away from His father and created a totally separate entity that has little to do with God or Godliness and in doing this has created disunity and dissension in the created order and among people. Red Jacket, one of our early leaders, when questioned by Minister Cram,(this is where the term Cram religion down our throats came from)spoke to him wisely saying, “Why is it that if you have been given the words of the Creator in a book, as you say, that you all disagree on what the words say, since all of you have the book and all can read. I think we will wait and watch for a time as you preach to your own people. We will watch, and if after a time we see them less inclined to cheat Indians, we will re-examine your message and your book.” I see and receive the blessings of the Creator each and every day that assures me that I am walking on a good and holy path with the Creator. That path for me, is not with the church as my experiences have shown, but as a Mohawk man. Just as John once told Jesus there are others preaching in your name should they not be with us. Jesus answer was basically to leave them alone. That is all I am putting forth, wisdom comes from more than one direction. The church is not the sole recipient of the Creator’s wisdom and knowledge.

  23. Sakoieta says:

    Oh, I forgot to mention, Bobbilee. My name Sakoieta’ means “He Wakes Them Up Early”. As Mohawks, we have in the past, only given one name to one individual to carry at a time. This way we teasingly say when I greet the Creator (Shonkwaiatison – “The One Who Made Our Bodies”) each day and raise my hands to thank him for life and all the goes with it. He doesn’t have to look at a long list and say, “hmmmm, who is this? Sakoieta’ Smith, Sakoieta’ Thomas, Sakoieta’ Jones? There is only one Sakoieta’ who carries that name while alive and that is me. He listens to my words of thanksgiving and then sends down his unconditional love, guidance, wisdom and knowledge. All because I took the time to offer thanks for a new day of life and living and gave only thanks, knowing He will supply everything I need for the day without my asking since I can only approach Him as the great Creator with limited mind of a human being of limited understanding and knowledge. He shows me everyday that our relationship is strong and vibrant.

  24. daisymarygoldr says:

    Sakoieta, you do well… to believe the Bible is the Word of God. Here is what God’s Word tells:

    1) About the Church being the sole recipient of the Creator’s wisdom and knowledge.

    The Church, the Body of Christ, is a new creation, a “mystery” that God revealed to Paul who writes “…the mystery of Christ… was never disclosed to human beings in past generations as it has… been revealed to His holy apostles …by the [Holy] Spirit…to proclaim

    …the unending (boundless, fathomless, incalculable, and exhaustless) riches of Christ [wealth which no human being could have searched out],

    Also to enlighten all men and make plain to them what is the plan of the mystery kept hidden through the ages and concealed until now in [the mind of] God Who created all things by Christ Jesus.

    [The purpose is] that through the ‘church’ the complicated, many-sided wisdom of God

    in all its infinite variety and innumerable aspects might now be made known …This is in accordance with the terms of the eternal and timeless purpose which He has realized and carried into effect in [the person of] Christ Jesus our Lord” (Eph 3: 4-11) whom you also believe to be “the one who came to create the bridge back to Creator to reconnect us with God”.

    2) About John’s question Jesus answered “…no one who does a mighty work in My name (not in any other name) will…be able to speak evil of Me. for whoever is not against us (i.e. the Church) is for us.

    …anyone who gives you (i.e. the Church) a cup of water…because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward. (Mark 9: 40-41)

  25. daisymarygoldr says:

    …and finally, in response to your comment to wait and watch the church, I was reminded of one of my favorite hymns written by Samuel J. Stone, 1839-1900:

    The Church’s one foundation, Is Jesus Christ her Lord,
    She is His new creation, By water and the Word.
    From heaven He came and sought her, To be His holy bride;
    With His own blood He bought her, And for her life He died.

    She is from every nation, Yet one o’er all the earth;
    Her charter of salvation, One Lord, one faith, one birth;
    One holy Name she blesses, Partakes one holy food,
    And to one hope she presses, With every grace endued.

    The Church shall never perish! Her dear Lord to defend,
    To guide, sustain, and cherish, Is with her to the end:
    Though there be those who hate her, And false sons in her pale,
    Against both foe or traitor, She ever shall prevail.

    Though with a scornful wonder, Men see her sore oppressed,
    By schisms rent asunder, By heresies distressed:
    Yet saints their watch are keeping, Their cry goes up, “How long?”
    And soon the night of weeping, Shall be the morn of song!

    ’Mid toil and tribulation, And tumult of her war,
    She waits the consummation, Of peace forevermore;
    Till, with the vision glorious, Her longing eyes are blest,
    And the great Church victorious, Shall be the Church at rest.

    Yet she on earth hath union, With God the Three in One,
    And mystic sweet communion, With those whose rest is won,
    With all her sons and daughters, Who, by the Master’s hand
    Led through the deathly waters, Repose in Eden land.

    O happy ones and holy! Lord, give us grace that we
    Like them, the meek and lowly, On high may dwell with Thee:
    There, past the border mountains, Where in sweet vales the Bride
    With Thee by living fountains, Forever shall abide!

  26. Loretta Beavis says:

    This community of writers has been such a blessing to me because I have not ever attended a bible study or worship service or small group that was able to respond and communicate with each other with such … I don’t even have an adequate word to describe this … fellowship and allowance for expression and growth …!

    I wonder if this is how it was when Jesus spent time with the ordinary people?

    Wow – if worship services and weekly bible studies experienced fellowship like this, wouldn’t the services be overflowing with people thirsty for more of God!

  27. Mart De Haan says:

    Our conversation has taken some interesting turns. Listening to one another has given an opportunity for all of us to test our thoughts and assumptions by what God has spoken through creation (Psalm 19:1-6; his Law/Scriptures (Psalm 19:7-11); conscience (Rom 2:14-15) and above all through his Son (John 1:1-14).

    As so many of us have read, the Apostle who founded many churches, acknowledged that God has revealed enough of himself, in many different ways, in order to draw all to himself through his Son (Romans 1; Acts 17:24-28).

    Solomon collected his wisdom from many sources, and the nature of his collection shows that you don’t have to be a member of the covenant family of God to have a lot of wisdom. Jesus would later acknowledge that, in many ways, unbelievers are often wiser than the children of God (Luke 16:8).

    Yet the story and counsel of the Bible is that a person can be enormously wise– and socially– a very moral, intelligent person– who still desperately needs the sacrifice and mercy of Christ.

    For, as Paul went on to say, there is one God, and one mediator (i.e. peacemaker) between God and man– the Man Christ Jesus (1Tim 2:5).

    I know that many of us are aware of this. But it’s so important to see how many paths of wisdom God has built into his creation around us, and into our conscience within us– and all of them point to our need of his Son.

    Personally, the little I know of my own heart shows me so clearly that without the gift of God in Christ, I would be without God and without hope.

    A friend had a conversation with a very educated man who said he thought that all God expects of us is to do our best. Friend said, so how are you doing? Have you done your best for him? The man honestly acknowledged that he hadn’t and said, “Guess I’m in trouble aren’t I”. That’s our common state– apart from accepting the grace of God in Christ.

    Seems to me this means the wisdom we need most is the wisdodm personified in God’s Son, the wisdom that leads us to Him, and the wisdom that he can give us for listening to and caring for one another.

  28. SFDBWV says:

    Sakoieta, Kanien’keha ( people of the flint ).

    You are quite right, in that the topic is not about all the issues you brought to our attention. But it is what you chose to highlight. All the wrongs done to your ancesters and you as a seperated people. As well as the failures of christian people to behave more Christ like.

    I believe what the Bible tells me. I choose to and my heart tells me as well that the words written there are true.

    It is because I believe, that I can also say that we are all brothers. All decendants from thoes three brothers who stepped of the Ark at Mt Ararat and subsequently whoes children dispersed and populated the world we know of today.

    No people anywhere have lived an existance that was without sin. Where ever people are, there are the evidence of
    it…Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, whichcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, sedition, heresies, enveying, murders, drunkeness, revellings, and the like.

    Since we all came from a common beginning, it sounds resonable to me that the story of creation and even of the fall and plan of salvation, has been told and retold to the families of man as they moved about the earth and settled in all the lands.

    There have always been conquerors and the conqured. It is normaly the victor who gets to write history. The vanquished rarely get a voice.

    But the true history of God and man was given to 66 writers over 4400 years by God himself to create the Book, we know of as the Bible.

    Within the pages of the Bible are God’s nature, His plans, His desires, His wisdom. Written so that we His lost children can learn for ourselves the true nature of God and our place with Him.

    Jesus was born to a people God made special for the purpose of bringing forth the savior of ALL mankind.

    Jesus has said that HE is the only way to God. It is a statement He made. That only through Him can we obtain salvation and come before God forgiven of all our wrongdoins.

    It is also throough Him that we strive to live as He would have us live. To treat others as He would have us do, even to die for.

    It is in the family of Christ, that we become adopted into the special unique entity called the Church. No longer identified as by a race or color or language. But only as belonging to the Christ.

    I will pray for God to open your heart to the truth and wisdom He offers you through the Holy Spirit and being of Jesus the Christ.

  29. poohpity says:

    Yes, it is not about any specific nation, gender or tongue, it is about unity in the Spirit. I believe that God in His infinite wisdom gave all peoples a part of Himself that all will come together as ONE and gain knowledge of God. That is what God wants for us to know Him and that will lead us to love Him and each other. To understand the one thing we all have in common, God. To separate ourselves is in essence saying that someone is better than someone else which the bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, that puts us all in the same boat, doesn’t it? Because of that sin we battle each other rather than the evil one our common enemy not each other.

    My heritage is a mixture of many different nationalities but now my heritage is a “Child of God” and there is nothing higher or more grand than that. I received that glorious acknowledgment because God came down in the form of the creation to die for the forgiveness of my sinful nature and that is the heritage I claim.

  30. Sakoieta says:

    This is a difficulty that usually occurs in these forums for me. I usually stay away from these discussions because when I share my beliefs it seems to be assumed that I am not complete in the manner in which I follow the Creator’s directions and guidance for how I live my life. I do not come here to missionize anyone into believing as I do as a Mohawk man. I only come to respectfully share. I would respectfully request that no missionizing statements be made towards me since in my discussions I do not project my thoughts of others in that same manner. I have worked with the church for 54 years now and have been missionized to death in a manner that I find offensive, disrespectful and inappropriate. I have continued in my life, as I follow the faith of my fathers and people, to continue to reach out a hand of friendship, mutual respect and peace to fellow believers. I have developed beautiful relationships with people of all faiths and fully appreciate those relationships, even with Christian people. But in my working, time and time again, I have approached especially Christians in the church and offered them this same hand of peace, mutual respect, and friendship, only to find that no matter how many times I offer this and even extend forgiveness to them for the mistakes they make with my people, they cannot get past their own stereotypical beliefs and racist attitudes towards my people. I have constantly worked with them to help them to be able to see my people as being able to stand equally with them in the eyes of God, only to be confronted with their arrogance of perceived spiritual authority because they maintain they have the truth of God in the book, while we follow only oral teaching or myths. This is why I no longer believe the church, in it’s present condition has any relevance to our people. I do not believe God gave all of his truth to 66 men to write down in a book. I believe in every nation and people He has left witnesses. The belief that if truth is not written down, therefore it is questionable, is a European belief that has caused much relational difficulty between the indigenous people of the world and their European colonizers. We have long histories and many stories of working and relating to God, on this continent, that have not been shared or appreciated because of this. I believe in our creation stories as Mohawks because I continue to see witness to it every day. I do not believe we are descended from a Mount Ararat experience. We have stories of how we came to be here that are just that, our stories of how God worked with us. I believe those stories are true because they have been found to be sound and truthful in their examination. They do not vary much from the Biblical accounts only share a part of the creation picture that was not included. I want to be just a little facisious here, but respectfully. If we are commanded to be Christlike, then lets examine who Jesus really was and how He lived, for a moment. He was an Indigenous Jew. He was spoke his own language, which was not english. He practiced the ceremoniesof his people, as was his custom. He was an enrolled member of a tribal group of people (the story of his trip to bethlehem to become enrolled verifies this). He was a member of a group who were subjucated by a foreign power. He was a dark skinned, dark haired man, not blonde haired, blue eyed as the church has presented him to us. That Jesus never existed in person. for all intents and purposes he was very much an Indian in that part of the country. If we are to be Christlike should we not, cannot we follow these examples of Jesus also, yet these are the very things the church, schools and government have tried to eradicate form us as indigenous peoples. So where is the wisdom in that? We have watched the church so that by it’s works we will know them. We have found the church wanting. In many discussions I often wonder with the actions, attitudes and beliefs of the church and some Christians, if they themselves have ever been introduced to the God and Savior they claim as their own. If they had I believe we would see them love mercy, do justice and walk humbly with their God. I don’t see it. We believe as Mohawks, that with anything we encounter in life their is definition or understanding that needs to occur. Then there has to be application or putting the belief into action that demonstrates the knowledge and wisdom gained. Each person has a unique relationship with God that will never be the same as any other person who has ever lived or who will live. Because God reaches us and we create that relationship with experience. no two people’s experience is ever the same, yet all are holy and sacred in the sight of God. We do not prothelyze as Mohawks but accept that God is working with each person as they come to understand and know God. My walk with Him is a holy and sacred walk. I will not bemissionized away from it because of other people’s walk. I will listen to their stories and rejoice they have found goodness in the manner they choose to walk with God and He with them. Hopefully they will rejoice with me when I dance in praise of the Creator through the Creator’s Dance and offer thanks to him in my native tongue, not come and arrest me for doing so. That is unity of spirit. That is wisdom at work. That is peace, mutual respect, and friendship extended between peoples. That to me is the will of God.

  31. SFDBWV says:

    Sakoieta, So here we are two people with different spiritual beliefs. I have explained my beliefs to you and have offered my prayers on your behalf.

    I cannot force you to believe as I do. Nor would I try.
    Neither will God.

    I am not sure why you would enter into a conversation on a Christian blog and think that the Christian’s there would not express their beliefs and attempt to show you that there are some people who try their best to follow their God as He want’s them to do so.

    But I am glad you did.

    It is also clear by reading your last comments that you do not believe in what the Bible say’s.

    That is certainly your right to believe what you wish.

    I do not think it is a wise choice.

  32. Sakoieta says:

    LOL. This is what I mean. I have written, believe very respectfully. I have attacked no one for their belief nor have I tried to convert anyone to my beliefs. I have only shared my thoughts in a manner that if read, accepted, listened to, and understood, will help to create better relationship and understanding of my people. Next, there is no where that says only Christians should write or put forth their ideas about faith on this site. If there is, please respectfully, show me and I will apologize for coming here. I have not said at any time that I did not believe in the Bible. I have shared that I believe the Bible contains the word of God and I have also stated I do not believe the Bible is the exhaustive word of God. I think that is a statement that bears truth. I also expect you to express your beliefs, just not try to shove them down my throat with attempts to missionize me in the process of sharing. Also none of you know me well enough to dictate to me what I believe and what I don’t. You also do not know my history with the church well enough to judge it. Again I have come here only to share my thoughts. I get a newsletter from Mart every time he writes on a topic. That newsletter says feel free to share your thoughts. There has been too much damage done in the name of Christianity because of the same type of mentality that your last comment contains. I find your last comment insulting. Take just common business practices. You have a product that you want to share with the world. Do you not do assessments of whether or not the public will accept the product? Then do you not periodically do assessments of sales and the product to insure it’s success? Of course you do. It is unwise and unsound to make a product the public has no use for and then try to force them into buying it. This is the same with missions. The church has come among our people and seldom checked to see if the manner in which they bring the gospel is healing, healthy or appropriate. When we have voiced our concern we get the same response you just gave to me. A few hundred years ago your people would have decided that since it didn’t appear we accept your bible as you present it, we are in error. Since we do not accept it, as you present it, then we must be removed and our villages would be surrounded with soldiers and set on fire. Any of our people who didn’t burn to death would be shot. That village of heathens is finished let’s move on to the next one and force our religion on them. Sorry to say my friend but it appears from your post not much has changed. Maybe I will pray the Creator will open your ears to listen to what the recipients of a subjective version of the true gospel have to say about how it has been presented in very inappropriate, un-Godly and even un-Christian manner and how by listening to our story we can change that relationship into something better and good. That is a wise choice. I hope you take it.

  33. mtman says:

    Sakoieta: I too have read your comments with keen interest. I grew up along side a young Indian girl – not from your clan, but I learned early that the Indian has not always been treated well as you claim. To this very moment I support many different Indian causes but I do so out of what my heart tells me and not for what my or any other ancestors may have done in the past. In the process I do not compromise my beliefs nor do I particularly want you or anyone else to embrace them to the extent you would compromise yours. Your comments are appreciated and very well thought out.
    You say that the Christian Church is hypocritical. (my term, paraphrasing) I couldn’t agree with you more. They can’t hardly speak to those who are true followers of Jesus. From an objective view point they don’t draw people to their way of thinking very well. In spite of that however, God does the calling over and above their short comings and many people are drawn to him in the name of Jesus every day.
    You seem to think that those who have posted here are trying to convert you, but I don’t see that at all. They are stating their beliefs and neither you or us Christians should be defensive about it. You indicate that you are willing to forgive those who are Christians but you apparently must expect more from them than they do from you.
    I have just finished a review of Mohawk history and find that they beheaded the first Dutch priest that came to stay with them to record your practices; after they had accepted him as a friend. They ate their captives and were almost exterminated by other groups of Indians for their brutal practices. Maybe its time we all put the past behind us. It will never be a perfect world no matter how hard we try.
    I can see where you could be confused with the Christian church, and prefer to worship God as your ancestors have for centuries. Many of us who are Christians are confused by the Christian church as well. What we Christians have in common however is our belief and trust that Jesus came into the world for atonement of our sins and to reconcile us to the God in heaven. That Jesus is the very Son of God.
    After all these years you want some concessions with Christians but choose to give none except lip service. Otherwise you would forgive first and not offer them forgiveness conditionally. My own experience in this country is if you extend your hand in true friendship that you will be received equally. I don’t see that happen much anymore sadly enough. You seem to be pressing your type of worship and claiming that this Christian blog site is trying to convert you at the same time. Sorry but I just can’t see that. I agree with you that Christians should learn to accept all creatures, peoples and this earth with more reverence but they don’t consistently do that and waste and abuse more than they have been called to be stewards of. I admire your ability to express yourself and you do an excellent job in this regard. I agree with you that this blog site is open to anyone and I am glad you finally decided to post. I respect your views but challenge you to not press them on Christians any more than you want Christians to press their views on you. Views may differ but we are all God’s creation, and we may disagree on how to worship, but we should be willing to embrace each other in spite of those differences.
    This topic started on wisdom -v- knowledge. There is no question as a non-Christian you have obtained great wisdom and continue to grow in it. Long before the Mohawks there was a gent named Plato who on wisdom said – Perfect wisdom has four parts: Wisdom- the principle of doing things aright. Justice- the principle of doing things equally in public and private. Fortitude- the principle of not fleeing danger, but meeting it. Temperance- the principle of subduing desires and living moderately. If your words are true and I believe they are, you have already achieved three and sound well on the way of number four.

  34. daisymarygoldr says:

    mtman, welcome back! As always I enjoyed your comment!

    “What is called for is the kind of wise heart…”- MDH

    I must confess that it is getting extremely difficult for me to control the erratic beatings of my heart which I’m afraid may soon switch over from “wise-heart” mode to just the reverse…

    This is not to jump to any ready made conclusions but in teaching us to listen, you did not specify for “How long?” How long should we listen? Because this listening is taking for ever and is turning out to be — sheer torture :o( sorry! can’t take this any longer as am almost getting killed (gasp-gasp).

    Anyway, in the first place, I think we should not even try to prick our ears and listen to the words and hearts that reek of worldly wisdom. It is injurious to our spiritual health. Besides, “Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?” (1 Cor 1:20)

    That is exactly why Solomon experienced the downside to receiving “wisdom from many sources”. As long as he used the wisdom of God it helped him even in matters pertaining to gray areas. For instance, the statutes (i.e. The Bible) of his father David did not tell Solomon how to discern the issue of the 2 alleged mothers claiming the same baby as theirs.

    My guess is that solving that hard-to-crack case without the aid of “DNA Maternity Testing” must have made news headlines around the world. Prof. Solomon’s great wisdom evidently attracted the heart of a Gentile Queen of Sheba, needless to mention the hearts of thousand other women that enticed him into worship of all kinds of strange gods!

    Friendship with the world is enmity with God and of course all of that worldly wisdom caused Solomon to wander away from God. The earthly, unspiritual wisdom stole away the joy he had while walking according to the wisdom of God and instead pierced him with much grief and sorrow (Eccl 1:18)

    King Solomon asked and ‘had’ the wisdom of God but thankfully, we have a greater than Solomon- Jesus who ‘is’ the wisdom of God. All that is needed is for us to simply abide in Christ… no looking around to the East or West.

    The Holy Spirit will surely help us to listen to the words and heart of our God… to walk according to the statutes of our heavenly Father so that we may gain spiritual wisdom that will guide our hearts to be wise in all situations… and enjoy long lasting life. (Ecc 7:12)!

  35. bubbles says:

    Proverbs is like a treasure hunt. No matter how many times it’s read, there’s always some nugget of wisdom found.

    Here are a few verses to consider:

    Proverbs16:21b ‘whosoever trusteth in the Lord, happy is he.’

    Proverbs 16:21, 23-24 ” The wise in heart shall be called prdent: and the SWEETNESS OF THE LIPS increaseth learning. (23) The heart of the wise teacheth his mouth, and addeth learning to his lips. Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.”

    Proverbs 25:15 “By long forebearing is a prince persuaded, and a soft tongue beaketh the bone.”

    One that’s very convicting (very) that’s taped on the refrigerator: Prov. 31:26 “She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.” whew.

    Jesus spoke kindly to EVERYONE–Zacchaeus who stole money from many people. Obviously he was wanting to know Jesus. Jesus spoke kindly to the woman caught in the very act of adulterly. He was stern with the Pharisees-they should’ve known better.

  36. sjd says:

    Since I read some of the initial writings of Sakoieta yesterday, I keep going back to wondering how I, how the Church, really responds to the knowledge we have, to the Wisdom that Christ is. How active am I or my local Church involved in the lives of those who are so hurting, or who have been hurt in the past?

    Most of us are familiar with Israel’s failure to care for the oppressed, the orphans, the widows, the poor, as recorded in the Old Testament. We see the LORD repulsed by their sacrifices when their lives were devoid of the true worship He desired. His desire was clear:

    Zechariah 7:9-12 (NASB95)
    9 “Thus has the LORD of hosts said, ‘Dispense true justice and practice kindness and compassion each to his brother;
    10 and do not oppress the widow or the orphan, the stranger or the poor; and do not devise evil in your hearts against one another……..

    Then in the New Testament we see this spoken against the religious leaders:

    Matthew 23:23-24 (NASB95)
    23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
    24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

    Sometimes I am wondering in our zeal to present the Word, the Gospel, which we should be doing, are we neglecting the other parts? Are we being available to Wisdom being lived out around us? I have appreciated this site which has me thinking deeper, and hopefully responding more boldly in love.

    Daisy, I so appreciate you reminding me of that hymn earlier. The Bible is so rich in it’s telling of this wonderful love story of Christ and His Bride, the Church. I do not understand it, but am so thankful. My desire is that the Bride(the Church) today will more fully express it’s love for the Bridegroom, and that includes by Word and by deed. I am confident that the Bride ultimately will glorify Christ beautifully, He will see to that!

  37. Sakoieta says:

    Wise words mtman. When we attend ceremonies we are taught to listen to what is shared by the speakers since there may be something in the message for you to take with you. Nothing is pressed on anyone to accept. In that same manner, I have tried not to press anything on anyone here, only to share where I have found true wisdom, other than Biblical sources, from the Creator, while also accepting where others have found it in their beliefs and stressing that we only share and not try to missionize each other in the process. If I have come across as trying to force people to believe as I believe, then I have to say my intent was not to do so. I have not said I do not have the greatest respect and love for Jesus. I have only shared my difficulty with the church and some Christians and their actions that at times are not wise choices in which I believe the church and it’s people should act now and how they have acted in the past. I have also not said that I don’t believe in the Bible, only that I do not believe the Bible is the total exhaustive truth of God. I think at this time I have shared enough. I don’t want to cause a disruption to others wishing to share.

  38. poohpity says:

    I believe this is the reason why it is so important as this blogs guidelines state that it would be nice for folks to stay on topic. As Mart said in the last couple of paragraphs of the topic jumping to conclusions without all the facts can cause trouble (paraphrase). Wisdom is better than Gold because with wisdom comes the ability to listen and learn. Only God is an all knowing Judge for He alone can see the heart of man and knows the motives. I have wisdom enough to understand that I am not responsible for the behaviors and action of people so many years ago or even now but I use the wisdom of God’s word to live by daily and mess up often and have to start over. Reading the guidelines of this blog give us wisdom by using rules that keep us in line to not offend others but to discuss own thoughts on the subject presented.

  39. poohpity says:

    whoops “to discuss OUR own thoughts on the subject presented”. See I told how easy it is to mess up. lol :-)

  40. Loretta Beavis says:

    God has given us all that free-will thing … the power to decide …

    Yikes! I don’t doubt that Sakoieta has been overloaded with “religion” with a label stuck on top of it that says “Christian”. I don’t “hear” anything in his past experience that sounds like he experienced the love of Christ through people or in a personal relationship with Jesus through His Holy Spirit. I hear a lot of fear which keeps him at a distance. God promises His vengeance on evil, my friend. It is Satan who comes to kill, steal and destroy.

    As I’ve posted before, I listened to a lot of counterfeit Christianity and didn’t pursue a personal relationship with God through His Son, Jesus, receiving that comfort and guide, the Holy Spirit. When I finally did, I didn’t need worldly wisdom, but hung on far too long.

    I accept Sakoieta’s free will, just as God did with me. (And God waited a my lifetime on me.) I will pray for him and not about him.

    I’m glad Sakoieta and others have courage to post their differing responses to topics and that we get stirred up. The great thing about blogs is you can’t run out of paper and ink!

    Thankfully there’s no counterfeit Christianity here, but loving people with a desire to not hide the truth about Jesus.

    God also is faithful ’til our last breath to save anyone, through His son, Jesus:

    “Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, ‘If you are the Christ, save Yourself and us.’ But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, ‘Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.’Then he said to Jesus, ‘Lord remember me when You come into Your kingdom.’ And Jesus said to him. ‘Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.'” Luke 23:39-43 (NKJ)

    I know it is God’s Holy Spirit that draws each of us to Him; and God is patient.

    What has helped me very much to learn about God and His wisdom is all the resources at the RBC website, there’s Answers to Tough Questions, topics in “movies”, Our Daily Bread online, Discover the Word radio small group bible study, just a world of blessings at this website that God uses to give out His wisdom in a trustworthy form.

    I hope I’m on track here :)
    A wannabe follower of Christ :)

  41. BobbiLee says:

    1 Corinthians 1:30 says, “It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.”

    There are many kinds of wisdom and knowledge in the world. Seems that if Jesus is wisdom from God and is our righteousness, holiness and redemption, no other wisdom counts for much. It is when we are IN Christ Jesus that we also have this godly wisdom.

    As Mart said, Jesus is the only Mediator between God and mankind. It is only through this “mediatorship” that we have a relationship with God. There is no other way, according to God’s Word. In fact we are told that Jesus came as the Living Word. We do not create that relationship as was stated above, “Because God reaches us and we create that relationship with experience.” Our experiences are not the standard or foundation for many relationships, if any, let alone with God. It is only through the wisdom from God, who is Jesus Christ our mediator, that we have any relationship with God.

    That is the true wisdom that is better than gold and that prevents us from creating our own ideas and misconceptions of who God really is.

  42. Rick123 says:

    Jam 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace…He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?(Mic 6:8)

    Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things…Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?(Jam 4:11, 12)

  43. SFDBWV says:

    Sakoieta, Please let me say this one last statement.

    If I have offended you, I appologize.

    This blog is for all people, it is RBC’s and not intended to exclude anyone.

    I have also studied the cultures of early American peoples. Saddest of all to me are the ones that have been forgotten and their story lost to time.

    There is both great wisdom and knowledge found here in the comments written by others. But there is also a deeper matter whereas Christians feel they have a responsibility.

    You, Sakoieta, are precious and your eternal wellbeing is important to we Christians. So we may sound over zealous in presenting what we consider the one true Gospel.

    That all of your past sins can be forgiven you, and you can come before God the Creator guiltless. And yes, dance and speak in your native tongue.

    All that is required from you is to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour. To put your trust on Him and believe.

    We here are not asking you to trust the church to save you. But that you put your faith in Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, the Creator of all that exisits.

    Not so that we can be right or get our way, but because we want you to have what we have. The eternal promise of life everlasting with God.

    Steve

  44. chapmartin says:

    Interesting discussion. Sakoieta, I admit that when Christians have missionized at different points in history, it has not always been done so with integrity, and what has been called proselytyzing, or “making disciples,” is little more than brutality. (I am not defending this type of “missionizing”.) Yet, part of being Christlike is to missionize. I do not understand my own faith apart from that concept. The Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20 actually shows us how Jesus commanded Christians to missionize. Earlier in your words you spoke of listening to the stories of others and rejoicing that they have found goodness in the manner they choose to walk with God and He with them. Yet, according to John 14:6, Jesus teaches that he is the only way to God and that no one comes to the Father but through Him.

    This is not another attempt to missionize you away from your particular form of faith. I am coming from a point of respect for who you are and hoping for a view of how someone different from me views the Christian faith. I have two questions:
    1) How can Christianity still be Christianity without missionizing since Christ commanded it in Mt. 28?..or to put it another way, How can we be Christlike without putting His commandment to missionize into practice?
    2) How can Christianity still be Christianity as Christ defined it with Him as the only way in John 14:6?

    I believe there are many others who hold the view that you have, but I do not understand how Christianity is supposed to work without these two principles in place. I am clueless when trying to grasp that viewpoint. Will you help?

  45. Sakoieta says:

    I remember a friend of mine had for one of his favorite sayings, “Preach the gospel always, if necessary…use words.” We watch, we assess what we see, we accept or reject by what we have seen and heard. The two have to match up and come together to be true. We also recognize that no human is perfect and all make mistakes. When working with other people the message has to be objective so those people can take the message and make it their own. Too much of our work involves including our own cultural baggage. If we were given a message to carry and share, then we share it in the manner it was given to us, often without thinking about how subjective we have made the message. I became a Christian when I was fourteen and have been heavily involved with the church and with the Longhouse of my people. It was only after working as a minister in the church for a number of years and a Spiritual/cultural counselor with my people that I finally had to choose a path to life. The European style of church was killing me and killing my spirit. I saw no wisdom, love or kindness there. I prayed for guidance for what seemed like years and through a series of events of heavy duty missionizing by the church I worked for to finally come forward with the truth of their intentions which was to “save” me from my culture and turn me into a missionized product with no worth other than to proclaim the goodness of the church and the manner in which they had saved me from the hell of being an Indian, I saw a path open up that did not include working with a church, inside the church. I took time to go into the woods to fast and pray for wisdom and insight. It was there I got the message that Creator told me, “I created you to be who you are. I love you, I will not forsake you. Follow the path that I have put before you. Look for truth. Return to the ancient paths, since many have left them.” I came from the woods renewed with peace, happiness and the chains of bondage the church had tried to put on me, released and free. I have never looked back. I have no fear. By leaving the church I left behind a God of fear, judgement and punishment and in doing so I encountered a God of my people who sends me unconditional love, who is my best friend and who expects full accountability of me in regards to my walk with Him each day. I have no problem attending church occasionally when my relatives invite me, since they are all church goers. But my thanksgiving and praise ring out and peal forth from me when I dance our dances of thanksgiving in the Longhouse, sing our songs of thanksgiving, and speak our language in offering words of thanksgiving. Much of my work now contains helping our people to heal from a Holocaust of genocidal activity that still has intergenerational affects on us each day, even right now with the manner in which government policy is put into affect and the manner in which it affects our people.

  46. chapmartin says:

    Sakoieta, Thank you for your story. I will dwell on your words for a while and I hope you continue to post.

  47. mtman says:

    Sakoieta: I absolutely love the way you express yourself. Your last post clears up much for me. Truth be known a lot of Christians would leave religion but not the Church which is our Lord himself. Fortunately you have a spoken history passed down. A history to fall back on. Most of us do not have anything but our old sinful ways to fall back on. There is a real distinction for me between religion and the Church. I think you are still a vital part of the Church but not the Christian religion part. Personally I don’t think that folks see this distinction clearly. Religion tends to stifle me also but Jesus keeps me fresh and vital.
    I also note that some people believe that when people are not in lock step with each other that they are in conflict or demeaning each other. I believe your posts and my post along with several others brought us closer into understanding and I believe that is good. If differences can’t be discussed without rancor how can understanding and ultimately wisdom be achieved?
    I wish I could sit with you for a while because I believe that we would find that we have far more in common than otherwise. I can also see each of extending the hand of friendship to each other regardless of status.
    Please keep posting because you have let a most valued treasure out of the bottle and others need to hear what you have to say. All won’t listen but they need to hear anyway.
    You and your people are not the only faction of our country that has suffered at the hands of our government. I love this country but I also do not approve of what our leaders always does. As to dancing; didn’t David himself dance to the Lord and wasn’t David a man after God’s own heart? Keep dancing and keep praying for reconciliation and most of all keep posting.

  48. BobbiLee says:

    We all need to remember that there is a huge difference between “religion” and relationship with God through Jesus Christ. As one well-known pastor has said, “Religion can condemn a person to hell”.

  49. Sakoieta says:

    Í:kehre enkatá:ti akwah í:ken tsi niawenhkó:wa Mart. (I want to say a very great thank you Mart.) This has been and is a good discussion. Your summations that led to the other thread being opened for discussion are filled with wisdom, strength, humility and knowledge. All products of a good mind given over to carrying the Creator’s goodness, love, discipline and respect. It is really appreciated.

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