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Is the Prophecy Being Fulfilled?

Photo: nealnyc

Photo: nealnyc

On a day in which 30,000 Jewish people gathered in Jerusalem’s Western Wall Plaza to receive the priestly blessing, an article in the Jerusalem Post yesterday described 4000 Christians meeting on the shores of the Dead Sea and claiming to be fulfilling Bible prophecy.

According to the JP article by Josiah Daniel Ryan, the 4000 were a contingent of thousands of Christians who have once again come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles.

Were these people fulfilling prophecy? Ryan writes, “Around 4,000 gathered on the moonlit beach of Ein Gedi to worship “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” and to fulfill an ancient Hebrew prophesy penned more than 2,500 years ago by the prophet Zecharia, which they say predicts that people from every nation will someday join hands with Jews to celebrate Succot.

The prophesy is from the 14th chapter of Zechariah and says, “And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain” (Zech 14:16-17).

The article went on to say that a worship leader of the group encouraged them to say, “Tonight I am a part of the fulfillment of the prophecy.” Other participants picked up the idea and one was quoted as saying, “What’s happening tonight was written.”

The “Succot/Tabernacles” celebration is an annual event by many Christians and is their way of not only of affirming their faith in Jesus as Messiah, but also solidarity with Israel.

Ryan went on to observe that some in Israel have mixed feelings about accepting the support. For example the well known anti-missionary rabbi, Tovia Singer, is quoted in the article as saying that while he appreciates the boost to the local economy, most of the Christians who are in town for the festival want nothing more than to win conversions.

“They have not come to pray for Jews but to prey on Jews,” said Singer. “On one hand it’s a very good thing to have them here, but the problem is that there is a price to pay because these evangelical Christians also come from denominations deeply involved in Jewish evangelism.”

My interest in the article is not to judge the motives or faith of those followers of Christ who are presently in Jerusalem affirming their faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Neither do I want to detract from an appropriate sense of love for the people who gave us our Bible and Messiah (Romans 9:1-5). The issue is whether it is misleading for followers of Christ to express such spiritual solidarity with the Jewish people at this point in history, or to claim a partial fulfillment of what Zechariah predicts.

In context, the Tabernacles/Succot celebrations Zechariah foresees happen after God brings Israel to their knees to mourn their prior rejection of the One they have pierced (12:10); after a conquering Messiah returns to the Mount of Olives (14:4); and after the conquering King rescues a remnant of a repentant nation of Israel. It’s at that point that Zechariah says, “And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles” (Zech 14:16).

In other words, there are serious issues of timing—not for praying for the Peace of Jerusalem, and not for seeking the salvation of any Jewish or Gentile person—but rather, there are serious issues of timing as far as showing solidarity (providing spiritual assurance) to any nation or individual who has yet come to their knees before the Messiah Zechariah foresees.

It’s one thing to affirm that God has a plan to bring people from all over the world to celebrate the feast of Succot at some point in the future. It’s another thing to say, “This is that”— which was predicted.

Spiritual peace between Jew and gentile is a wonderful part of what it means to share a faith in the Messiah who died for all of us (Eph 2:13-14). But it is not a political or spiritual solidarity that can be rightly celebrated…together… today… by those who disagree about whether Zechariah’s Messiah has already come and gone– with a promise to return.


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45 Responses to “Is the Prophecy Being Fulfilled?”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Cannot hurry God. He will have His way in His time, and it will always be perfect.

    The group of people who Mart has mentioned, claiming to fulfill the prophesy of Zech 14, has brought no honor to Christ nor have they done Christianity any service by their wayward action. My opinion.

    The complaining from the “hard line” rabbi’s about the Christians only wanting to convert Jew’s to Christ….well go ahead and complain, that’s what Christian’s do.

    If you read the Israeli news, and go to all the comment boards and articles about Jew’s returning to their faith. You find a people like any other who feel they are “right” and all else “wrong”.

    It becomes very clear that the Jew needs the Christian allies, but feels uncomfortable with the spiritual association. It would apear the only real friend the Jew has could be the Christian Church. Worldwide.

    So, what happens when that same Church is suddenly “snatched away”? And any remaining people who don’t bow down to the new world religion are hunted down and beheaded? What happens to Israel? Where then, are her allies? She will stand alone against the world. The world will then once again see that it is God who protects Israel, not her allies.

    After that great final battle and the return of Jesus the King, then is when the people of the earth who remain will come and pay tribute to God in Jerusalem, as foretold by God’s prophet’s.

  2. carlj says:

    I am amazed at how people think they can force God’s hand. I recall the Zealots during Jesus’ time on earth who wanted to force His hand to become King. Recently, I am hearing about a ministry purchasing airline tickets to fly Jews back to the Holy Land seeing that with the return of Jews the end time will be here.

  3. taomeano says:

    It is unforetunate that it is these type of christians who give the church of the Lord Jesus Christ a bad name. Yes Mart you are very correct when you say, there are issues of timing involved here. I mean the prophecy is so clear as to when the yearly pilgrimage to Jerusalem to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will take place.

    While, I don’t fault them for their zealousness, that zeal is misplaced. As for the anti-missionary rabbi Tovia Singer, what is he so afraid of, if he would only read Isaiah ch 53, he would see that his zeal is also misplaced. Pharisee of all pharisees, the Apostle Paul came to his senses after an encounter with the Messiah of Israel, and my prayer is that someday rabbi Tovia will come to his senses too after having a genuine spiritual conversation with one of the missionaries.

  4. InHisHands says:

    It is quite interesting that during the 70’s, on the heels of God giving Israel victory in the war at that time, most of our Evangelical preachers were deep into prophetic events and preached about the soon return of Christ – I have watched that dwindle over the years- but can truly understand how with the political issues and spiritual unrest of today Christians are, again, zooming in on the prophetic fulfillments and Christ’s soon return.

    The news in World Daily Net yesterday, stating that the Palastanian Authority and (whatever his name is) agree that there is ‘no Temple Mount’, only ‘a Muslim Holy site’. The statement that caught my eye was from O’bama to the UN Gen Assembly, “Obama used strongly worded language to call for the creation of a “viable, independent Palestinian state with contiguous territory that ends the occupation that began in 1967.”” These are definately prophetic days we are seeing, but I agree that we, Christians, need to get into ‘context’ and deliver the Word in the same way the prophets of old did – “Thus saith the LORD.” His word, work and timing are all there – we just need to remember not to get the ‘cart before the horse.’

  5. xrgarza says:

    Please excuse my ignorance, for as long as I have been a Christian I am not able to always find the correlation between the old testament, New testament, and the present age when it comes to Bible prophesy.

    Although, I enjoyed all of the responses this morning and I must say that I am in agreement with all of them people like you amaze me, I feel like I’m back in school when we have this kind of feedback. Thank you all.

    I do have one comment about the article when Tovia Singer say’s: “They have not come to pray for Jews but to prey on Jews,” This kind of behavior just chaps my hide, it’s not only the Jew’s that these people prey on, it’s every denomination that disagrees with their own theology.

    Heck I’ve had people tell me that my interpretation of scripture is incorrect, when they can only recite the passage but not practice it because “it was meant for the people of that age”.

    I will continue to be lead by the Holy Spirit because when the Holy Spirit leads me, I am not under the Law.

    Have a Blessed Day!
    Xavier

  6. poohpity says:

    I seems like the the fulfillment of prophesy sometimes gets more attention then what I believe our concentration needs to be. From what I understand our relationship with the Lord needs to be kept on fire so that we will be ready for anything. Several times in the Word it says that no one knows the time or hour not even Jesus. It also reminds us to pay attention to the day in front of us and doing the Lord’s will just for today. Not that we are not to plan for the future but to keep the most important relationship going.

    Sometimes things are a SELF fulfilling prophesy rather than spiritual hindsight. I think sometimes people look at what is written to try and prove the bible is true rather than taking it in faith. Or to make things happen so they can say, “see I was right”, rather than the Glory going to God.

    As God let His friend Abraham know what He was going to do with Sodom/Gomorrah, He has let us know what is going to happen in the future but without a timetable so that we would not be gazing into the sky but doing the work laid before us. Sometimes we are so concerned about tomorrow that we forget today.

    I believe the oil in our lamps is the time we spend in prayer and reading the Word and staying close to the source. Just as Jesus brought to light the fulfillment of scripture to the two on the road to Emmaus if and when He would like us to know something He will make sure we do somehow in someway.

  7. Loretta Beavis says:

    Reads like a history repeating itself scenario with regard to waiting on God …

    Genesis Ch15 (NKJ) God promises Abram an heir, a nation.

    Ch 16, Sarai, in doubt, takes matters into her own plans (kind of like Eve and Adam)

    Abram fathers Ishmael (Ch 16) … . God waits til Ishmael is 13 years old (Ch 17) and puts history back on course:
    Changes the parents names to Abraham and Sarah (like a rebirth or new beginning or something);
    restates His covenant (17),
    extends His grace to the “afflicted” Hagar and Ishmael (16:11).

    So, for those of us who just can’t wait (I did plenty of that) know that the Lord, whom Hagar called “You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees” (16:13) will not be distracted by the plans of man … ‘)

    I love my Jesus.

  8. pegramsdell says:

    Amen Deborah! Well said. We need to be careful to follow the leading of The Holy Spirit, not what we think prophecy should be. Jesus said that “it is finished”. We should be about Our Father’s business while we wait on Him. As if any day now He will be here to get us. But…..I should would love to go to Jerusalem!

  9. BobbiLee says:

    I love it Mart when you point out context: “In context, the Tabernacles/Succot celebrations Zechariah foresees happen after God brings Israel to their knees to mourn their prior rejection of the One they have pierced (12:10)”

    That is the big key to interpreting any passage of Scripture. Sadly those folks who think they are bringing in their own version of a prophetic Scripture are grossly mistaken. Thank you for an insightful glimpse of prophecy.

  10. poohpity says:

    Amen!!

  11. saled says:

    I love it-swine throwing pearls. We wouldn’t think of telling a stranger that they had dirt on their face, but we tell them about the dirt in their heart. Some things you would just rather figure out for yourself. The good news should emphasize hope for our terminal condition-and then let the spirit do the convicting.

  12. tandgmartin says:

    Good, timely article, Mart. Paul said that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, we’re all Christians. I believe it is very shady to pretend you’re in support of a group of unbelievers then turn around and try to convert them. If evangelism is the goal, be honest about it from the beginning with no game playing. Paul said by all means save some, but he never meant by using shenanigans.

  13. foreverblessed says:

    Well, let me tell of the other side of the story, when you start keeping these Holydays, the spring holydays, and the fall holydays, something happens to you. You get all excited, you do the same things God did command to Isreal thousands of years ago. You keep the same date the passover, when Christ did it with his disciples. It is so nice, and the feast of tabernacles is more then a week, imagine what bonds you create with your church when you are so long together.
    And then you read all these prophecies, afcourse you start to read them, because they tell of the feast of tabernacles that will be held again by Israel, as Mart was saying. And then you can get overexcited, and say things like: this is prophecy fullfilled!
    Just to picture how life turns when you start to keep the Feasts.
    I have done that, I grew up in a christian church that kept these Festivals. It is awsome.
    But 14 years ago I found out, by studying the writings of Paul, that these commands are a Shadow of the reality, and the reality is Christ. Colossians 2
    So if you have found Christ, diligently study His sufferings, and the glory that follows, as Peter tells us 1 Peter 1: 3-12, v10
    That is the main thing, hold on to that. The Mystery is Christ in you.

  14. SFDBWV says:

    Well spoken, foreverblessed, I can’t imagine any person who is a Christian at any age or level not experiencing the excitement and elation that fellowship with the Holy Spirit can bring.

    Like many things that can bring us to such a euphoric emotion, there can be a down side.

    So we keep our feet on the ground by being grounded in the truth of scripture, allowing ourselves to feel elated but our eyes fixed squarly on the Christ.

    Most of us have been to events both of Christian worship or secular events that can cause us to get “caught up” in the emotion of the crowd. Only later when all the excitement wears off to wonder, well what’s next? Some may say well that was good, where others may say is that all there is, I expected more.

    I am certain there were some very disapointed people in the crowd of 4 thousand, who were expecting something more, after being led to believe they were fulfilling prophesy.

    This story has reminded me of other news items I have read over the years, that are embarassing to Christianity. It was only a few years ago, I read where a man claimed to be Jesus Christ and that he had returned and was fulfilling the prophesy of the second coming. The news service is quick to pick up such characters and have a laugh at our faith.

    It also sadly reminds me how some people can be led astray by false teachers and false doctrine. Even though warned of their coming and instructed as to how to identify them.

    We must be grounded and rooted in Christ and be aware of what the Word of God says. We must know it for ourselves, not take someone elses word for it. We must also be in prayer and listening to that still small voice in our hearts ( that sometimes has to shout at us). The armor of God protects us from such firey darts.

    We must be quick to also pray for all who are lost to many distractions.

    I hope all have a very blessed day.

    Steve

  15. poohpity says:

    I was thinking about prophecies and it seems that we dwell on the negative ones while we have some very positive ones that I can not wait to see. How about the one that says, “One day every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord”. The unity and love that that day will bring is something to really look forward to. Or the day in the New Jerusalem when the Lord will be the Light that illuminates the darkness. Or no more pain , tears or suffering. Those are the ones I would like to meditate on.

  16. jjhis says:

    As a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His Word, how awesome it was to float in the Dead Sea and then to read the prophecy in Ezekiel 47 of the coming day in which this body of water will be fresh and full of life when that great river from His temple flows into it! Praise the LORD! The 4000 who may have hoped they were witnessing prophecy being fulfilled did not see this. Thank you, Mart, and others who teach the truth of the scriptures in and by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can be so easily deceived in this day by false teaching.

  17. wretch-like-me says:

    In a few words…
    “There’s too much ME in this story and
    Not enough HE!”

    Huggs
    frank

  18. daisymarygoldr says:

    Good and profitable post that aptly addressed the danger when so called followers of Christ claim to fulfill prophetic events! In observing these events of false teaching, such Christians are trying to live by sight and will certainly end up getting disillusioned to eventually forsake their faith.

    Throughout the Bible, except for Jesus, the prophets themselves never understood what they prophesied and the people who fulfilled those prophecies were also never aware while fulfilling prophecy… even when it was pointed out specifically to individuals that they were about fulfill a certain act that was foretold… ex. Judas Iscariot!

    So, “Timing is the Father’s business” and our business is “to be His witnesses in Jerusalem, all over Judea and Samaria, even to the ends of the world.” (Acts 1:8). To “witness” means to tell, proclaim, publish and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom as a testimony… not to convert and save but to simply witness and make disciples for Jesus. And that is exactly how we show solidarity to any nation or individual who has yet come to their knees…

    Peter showed that solidarity: “You men of Israel… repent (change your mind and purpose); turn around and return [to God], that your sins may be erased …that He may send [to you] the Christ (the Messiah)… Whom heaven must receive [and retain] until the time for the complete restoration of all…” Acts 3:12-21. Jesus Christ will be sent only when the Jews will repent and call Him back from heaven (Luke 13:35). Repentance always is the prerequisite to salvation in Christ.

  19. daisymarygoldr says:

    The common salvation in Christ always is for the Jew first and then to Gentiles—both physically and spiritually… and “Spiritual peace between Jew and gentile” can exist only within the realms of the Spiritual body of Christ—The Church!

    Spiritual solidarity can be rightly celebrated together by preventing Judaizing by Jews and also Gentiles pretending to be Judaized in trying to keep the Sabbath or observe ceremonial, sacrificial and dietary laws. “whatever we do, do it all for the glory of God. Don’t give offense to Jews or Gentiles or the church of God.” 1 Cor10: 31-32

    The purpose of the Church is not merely limited to salvation and eternal life but for disciples to learn the way of God’s government and develop divine moral character (of saints) during this life here on earth. …because according to God’s faithful promises to His elect i.e. the called ones—

    1.His faithful friend, Abraham is: Israel will never “cease from being a nation” through out the ages (Jer 31: 36)

    2.His faithful saints, the Church: we will rule Israel and the world along with Christ (Zech 14:5)

    And as foretold in (Isaiah 2:3) Jerusalem will be the capital of God’s kingdom on earth and “Out of Zion shall go forth the law,”…so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord (Acts 15:17). This is God’s universal plan for redemption and restoration which was prophesied by Enoch and affirmed by Jude:

    “Behold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints) To execute judgment upon all… we must remember the predictions… In the last days there will be scoffers following after their own ungodly passions–merely sensual [creatures, carnal, worldly-minded people], devoid of the [Holy] Spirit and destitute of any higher spiritual life.

    But you, beloved, build yourselves up [founded] on your most holy faith [make progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher], praying in the Holy Spirit; [Strive to] save others, snatching [them] out of [the] fire; on others take pity [but] with fear, loathing even the garment spotted by the flesh and polluted by their sensuality.” For followers of Christ “Witness” also means to walk and live the Gospel message of salvation!

  20. bubbles says:

    Daisy- Can we inquire about your family? Have they been in harm’s way due to the recent floodings/tsunami/earthquake? When the news came out, I immediately thought of you and your family. Hope everyone is safe and well. I’ve really been thinking about you alot lately. :)I’m sure it’s difficult to be so very far away from your loved ones. You are brave.

    Perhaps these people were very excited to be in Israel, and part of something they felt was larger than themselves. It could be easy to get ‘caught up’ in a moment, especially when Scripture is not clearly understood. From what I understand, there is nothing that needs to be fulfilled prophecy wise for Jesus to come back and get us. Sure, we look at verses and say, “yes, those ‘end time’ events look like now.”

    It’s so important to not take verses out of context to suit our own wants and purposes. Perhaps people do this without trying to do so, or do so because that is what they have been taught their entire lives, and cannot see past the error.

  21. daisymarygoldr says:

    Good thoughts bubbles! Family is doing fine and don’t live anywhere close to those places that were affected by the Tsunami. Thanks for thinking and asking. I did miss your posts:) and you are also in my daily prayers!

  22. marma says:

    I appreciate everyone who commented about really reading scripture, in context. I also appreciated the comments that this is nothing new, that there are plenty of examples of people not only trying to rush fulfillment of prophecy, but misinterpreting the timing of same. Thanks, Mart, for bringing up such a timely subject.

    The sad thing is, such demonstrations as the 4k did is confusing to non-Christians whether Jew or Gentile. Can’t help but wonder if there is something of the Enemy causing this confusion. Reminds me to pray that the Lord would continue to send laborers into His harvest. I’m glad in spite of it all, Christ will build his church.

    Also, as parents (I’m not one) it really pays to teach our children well, so they may grow up as good witnesses and teachers of others of what God’s Word actually says, and the importance of lifetime Bible Study.

  23. poohpity says:

    I have to thank my mother for giving me the example of reading the bible from cover to cover every year. This Christmas twenty years ago she gave me my bible and I did not read it four of those years and my relationship with the Lord faltered extremely. Every year I learn something new that I never have seen before. Gee, I miss her soooo very much.:-( I am so thankful to the Lord for giving me the desire to be hungry for His Word. So, yes the example of parents is so important.

  24. poohpity says:

    Witnessing is a testimony of how the Lord has affected each of our lives. We are witnesses of His Grace and Mercy.

  25. bubbles says:

    Deb,
    Doesn’t it seem like the more you read of the Word, the more you want? “Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness. . ” Matthew 5 says.

    Your mother left you a rich legacy of loving Scripture.
    I have very little of my mother’s material things. She’s been with the Lord for 32 years ago this November. However, I can remember her reading her Bible every day. She, too, read through the Bible. She would spend time with the Lord every single day. There were times she made me wait spending time with her so she could read the Bible. The legacy our mommas left us is so special. We are rich indeed! :)

  26. dependent says:

    Christian history is unfortunately littered with examples of well-meaning but misled people earnestly acting out their interpretation of ‘the times’ in which they lived.

    Whether it was the Millerites in the mid 19th century waiting on a hillside in white robes or the thousands that made a pilgrimage from Europe to Jerusalem/Meggido valley to witness the advent of the year 1000, it seems clear that to dabble in ‘naming the times’ can be quite intoxicating.

    Intoxicating for the people who are misled in their thirst for their generation to be THE generation. And intoxicating for those who sell books, plane tickets, fill auditoriums or otherwise manage to profit from some Christian celebrity.

    Like Steve, I think this is just one more way that the cause of Christ is harmed. Those who love to disparage our Lord simply get more ammo through actions like these.

    Keeping our ‘lamps trimmed’ and being alert is the picture we have been given as we wait for the return of our Master. Discerning the seasons, not settling on a day or time is what we are called to do in the gospels.

    But it is very appealing to our pride to think we somehow have discerned a ‘special’ assignment to play a key, pivotal role in fulfilling a specific prophecy.

    Problem is, it doesn’t seem to be an isolated bunch of ‘kooks’ distracted by this sort of thing. Christian bookstores all over the world and movie boxoffices are profiting handsomely from the demand that ‘Christian’ culture supplies for that next book, end-times fiction series, apocalyptic movie or special speaker with that special word.

    I suppose we can be just like Jesus’ own disciples who expected much more spectacular, satisfying and timely results than what they were truly in for.

    The ‘last days’ have been progressing since Jesus’ ascent to the heavens and I for one am more than happy to conclude that God the Father is in control of world events and is the only One with the wisdom, grace, love and sense of justice to know when to nod his head to the King of Kings and bring this age to a close.

  27. rokdude5 says:

    I remember that my pastor mentioned most of the prophecies have been fulfilled but there are a few remaining ones.

    Check out Isaiah 19:23-25

    :23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. 25 The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”

    wow…Has this occurred already? hmmm….as far as the unfulfilled prophecies goes, all I can think of is “please stay tuned.”

  28. SFDBWV says:

    rokdude5, Just a question, what do you think is the meaning of the beginning statement of Isaiah 19:23…”In that day”

    What day do you think is being discussed?

    The entire 19th chapter is dedicated to what looks like a civil war in Egypt and a return to worshiping God after they go through what seems as a very horrible time of trouble and suffering. Brought on by God Himself. Followed by vs:23 “In that day”

    Just wondered if you had followed up on what your pastor had said.

    Steve

  29. wretch-like-me says:

    As much as it pains me to suggest, it would appear that this was a lowly effort to exalt someone’s personal agenda as an act of God. Reaching for God’ endorsement is nothing new.

    Unfortunately, many preachers develop their messages the same way. They select a topic, write their sermon and then go searching scripture for ‘any’ verse that might possibly support it… many out of proper context.

    They seem blinded by their ‘zeal’ but in reality are NOT walking in the spirit but in the flesh.

    Huggs
    frank

  30. daisymarygoldr says:

    poohpity, you are absolutely right, “Witnessing is a testimony of how the Lord has affected each of our lives. We are witnesses of His Grace and Mercy”. Witnessing through personal stories to testify His Grace and Mercy of how the Lord has affected our lives should reflect a supernatural conversion of our past life as seen in the cases of:

    …the man from Gadarenes and the Samaritan woman. Many more Samaritans in the village “told the woman, Now we no longer believe just because of what you said; for we have heard Him ourselves, and we know that He truly is the Savior of the world, the Christ” (John 4: 41-41)!

    The “witnesses for Christ” that I was referring to is different from personal witnessing and God’s purpose for such “witnesses” involves much more than that. Jesus commissioned His disciples to “be my witnesses, telling people about me” Acts 1:8. When commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ to be, “His witnesses”, I am called to point people not to me or my life but to Christ and His life…

    – to attest the fact that Jesus is God (Isa 43:10, 12)
    – to preach, earnestly argue and testify that Jesus is the Christ (Acts 18:5)
    – to declare that Jesus whom we killed is raised from the dead (Acts 3: 15)
    – to “testify (bear witness) that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name (Acts 10:43),
    – to “bear testimony…urging others to turn in repentance to God and to have faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).
    – to proclaim as a testimony the coming kingdom of God (Matthew 24:14).

    In Acts 2: 32- 47 when people heard such witnesses, “they were stung (cut) to the heart, and said what shall we do?” And as “Peter solemnly and earnestly witnessed (testified) and admonished (exhorted) with much more continuous speaking and warned (reproved, advised, encouraged) them, saying, Be saved from this crooked (perverse, wicked, unjust) generation…” about 3,000 souls accepted and were saved that day.

    It is a privilege for me to have personally witnessed such witnesses for Christ. For followers of Christ, prophecy is being fulfilled, when we effectively “witness” with boldness that is possible only by the power of the Holy Spirit and this witnessing requires utmost loyalty and faithfulness to the Lord even to the point of denying our very own lives (Rev 2:13; 17:6)!

  31. rokdude5 says:

    Thanks Steve for your angle on the matter. Sometimes I wish there was a secular history book regarding a lot things written in the Bible. I know that Josephus has written a lot of secular history but its not easy reading for me.

    Again, thanks Steve, RJ

  32. poohpity says:

    dmg,
    Thank you for the further explanation. Denying self is very important. I stand corrected and admonished.

  33. SFDBWV says:

    RJ, I think you are a “rock” solid Christian. I think from my “angle” you do very well in your interpetations and comments.

    I get lots of Christian material both in the mail as well as on the internet. I try and go through them as well as time allows.I have bought several cd rom comentanies as well.

    The one lesson I have learned from all these “opinions” is that, I am not to take what I am told as the final answer. I need to go and search out the facts of whatever material or scripture has come into my eyes or ears. For my self. Conformation always comes from the Holy Spirit. Most often through other people.

    The living Word of God is so very personal and powerful, that each word or verse has endless meanings for everyone. Each person being taught by the Holy Spirit at a level that person is able to understand and at the proper time when that person is ready to understand. I don’t even know when these two moments come together, But the Spirit of Christ knows and is able to open our eyes ,mind and heart to a new understanding of Truth. Truth being the person of Jesus Christ.

    One abstract point about history, is that man is always changing the names of people and places. This adds to the difficulty in following Biblical accounts of people and places when compared to the limited knowledge our secular historians and archeologists have.

    So for me if there are any discrepencies between the two I always take what the Bible has to say as “Gospel”.

    Carry on RJ, you do well.

    Steve

  34. foreverblessed says:

    About prophecies:
    Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10
    This verse comes almost at the end of Revelation, with so many prophecies, so many events, hard to follow.
    Then comes that verse mentioned above: The testimony of Jesus, if we have that then we have all.
    Like DMG said, but all in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Do this inbeing inspired by the Holy Spirit, not because of any other reason.

    And about most prophecies fulfilled? That makes me wander. Because many many prophecies are about the end time, about Jacobs trouble, and the subsequent intervention from God, sending Jesus as King of Kings.
    For us christians many of them are fulfilled
    Like Isaiah 43:1 Fear not, for I have redeemed you, I have called you by name, you are mine.
    God has fulfilled that scripture for us, but the verse is actually talking about Jacob, He who created you, O Jacob, He who formed you O Israel.
    There will be a time when the remnant of Jacob will be brought back to the land of Israel, and there David will be their King.
    I could go on and on about prophecy, about the stick of Judah joined to the stick of Ephraim, Ezekiel 37:15-26.
    So it is not only the Jews who will brought to the land, also the other tribes of Israel.

    But some say, this now only tlaks about the church, I would say, maybe so, but maybe it literally means what it says. Who knows, but God.

    But the best already happened to us, we are redeemed by our Lord and Master Jesus, lets rejoice about that!
    And do our job, as DMG described it above.

  35. rokdude5 says:

    Thanks for your kind words, Steve though I dont think of myself as “rock” solid. Would you take a “dirt clod” slowly turning into a stone? RJ

  36. wretch-like-me says:

    rokdude5:
    From one ‘clod’ to another… PTL…Hallelujah!!!

    Huggs
    frank

  37. SFDBWV says:

    I would guess there ain’t much difference in a clod and a lump of clay. But I will join in all by saying we all are pleased to be anchored to that solid rock. Our corner stone, Jesus the Christ.

    All smiles.

    Steve

  38. daisymarygoldr says:

    poohpity, that was not to admonish but just to make us think:)

    foreverblessed, you have said it best: “But the best already happened to us, we are redeemed by our Lord and Master Jesus, lets rejoice about that!”. Prophecy regarding Israel literally means what it says. Rom 9-11 clearly discusses that Israel rejected God by refusing the salvation which was offered to them in Jesus. Hence, God temporarily hardened their hearts with partial blindness not only to extend salvation to the Gentiles but also to provoke the Jews… so that they will eventually turn to God.

    That is what helps us to know both “the kindness and severity of God” and it also gives us hope during times when we fail God by our disobedience to sin against Him. While facing trials when we refuse to believe Him for deliverance from difficulties, it is God’s faithfulness to an unbelieving Israel which assures us that He will never leave nor forsake us.

    It is with that understanding, Paul was emphatic about fostering spiritual peace within the Church which is made of both Jews and Gentiles… which means neither can boast but both need to humbly accept the blessings for each other made possible only by “faith” in Christ. Hence, we can say for sure that God is not done with Israel (Rom 11: 26-27) …because of His faithful promises to her faithful forefathers, Israel will be restored to a place of national prominence… for the sake of the faithful repentant remnant.

    And it is in the context of Rom 9-11, the Church is called to show spiritual solidarity to God’s chosen nation. Now, spiritual solidarity does not mean celebrating Sukkot together before God’s appointed time but then it also does not give us any reason to remain neutral or affirm the hateful spirit of the unregenerate nations to revile the Jews…

    Jesus prophesied that “Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles” and God will certainly execute judgment upon those godless nations for their treatment of His people and of His heritage Israel because they have divided His land.” Joel 3:1-2.

    Therefore, to conclude with Paul’s thoughts on prophecy being fulfilled: “For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion…all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins” (Rom. 11:25-27)!

  39. xrgarza says:

    poohpity & bubbles,

    Wow! I had no idea, praise God, with all due respect this December 9th marks the 39th year that my father has been gone to be with the Lord. I must admit the longing and the pain never really go away but the interesting thing that I have learned is that losing my father at such a young age as painful as it was probably has been the best thing that has ever happened to me.

    For one I believe that it has made a better man out of me, you see I still want to honor my father, and he is still my hero. Not to mention it has taught me how to have an awesome relationship with my heavenly father.

    Personally I believe that the relationship a person has with his/her earthly father could potentially dictate the type of relationship a person could have with their heavenly father.

    Similarly the relationship a person has with his/her earthly mother could potentially dictate how this person would view a relationship with the Holy Spirit.

    Or the relationship a person has with his/her brothers and sisters could potentially dictate the type of relationship a person could have with Jesus you know the Bible says that He is a friend that is closer than a brother.

    Again this is not scriptural but just some personal insight that has given me peace.

    So as I begin the 40th year of my father being gone its kind of like wandering in the desert for the last 40 years, the Lord is really starting to reveal new things to me and the “promise land” that he has for me looks like its bigger than I could have ever imagined it could be, I pray that I don’t do like the stiffed neck people that never made it into the promise land being so close.

    God Bless
    Xavier

  40. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, DMG, -it is God’s faithfulness to an unbelieving Israel which assures us that He will never leave nor forsake us.-
    That is a new thought to me, but very encouraging.
    How many times I fail, or miss the point, was not encouraging enough to pepole around me.
    He does not fail me, He will lift me up, and make me go again. So He does, and will do with Israel.

    And I really do look forward that God will take Israel (all tirbes)out of all the countries they have been spread around, He will bring them back.

    And that prophecy has yet to be fulfilled, and many many prophecies that associate with that return.

    Now about Romans 11:25-32, v 26 sais, And so all Israel will be saved, (isn’t that promising?)

    But another verse which is of importance to this topic:
    v 28 As far as the gospel is concerned they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

    So between the 2 sides, enemies, and election, we are walking with the Jews. They are our enemies, but we are told to love our enemies.
    Instead of going to the Jews, who do not want us, we should show that we as a Church are loving one another. The love shown among christians, whatever denominination, is the object we should aim at.

  41. foreverblessed says:

    xrgarza. of topic, but thanks for sharing your thoughts on the relationship we have with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Gave me new insight. Because I always had a good relation with my father, but a lesser (not to exaggerate)one with my mother.

  42. SFDBWV says:

    There are some who have made it their lifes work to study the prophesies contained within the pages of the Bible. It is also to be noted that the Catholic Bible has more books than the Protestant.

    Whereas it is the concensus that all prophesy has been fulfilled except the event we know of as the rapture, there will be some that will disagree.

    When I think of Prophesy, there are several different types. The first being the promise of a Savior. The messianic prophesies are shown in dual reference. One speaks of the birth and first comming and events leading up to and the life of Messiah. But Daniel spoke of the cutting off of the Messiah and even gave the exact date of both his birth and death. the second speaks of His return, all the events leading up to and the moment of His setting foot on earth again. Also the events of His being here again.

    Then there are the prophesies concerning Israel. God’s chosen people. All future time lines for the world, are refered to in, the foretold events that surround Israel.

    There are also some personal items of prophesy with individuals. As with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. With kings or even some queens of Israel.

    There is also a great deal of prophesy about the events and the world after Christs return and defeat of the enemies of God.

    It is all about knowing the difference in the timelines.

    Jesus was angry with the stewarts of the Torrah, because they did not understand prophesy, as they, of all people, should have.

    What does it all mean to me? Firstly I know that the whole purpose of prophesy is to bring Jesus the Christ into focus. That the test of a prophet is that he must be 100% right. Many of the OT prophets died without the fullness of their prophesies being seen.

    Because, of the return of Israel to her homeland in 1948, I believe the prophesy Jesus stated “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.” Means the end of the age is at hand.

    So I look for the next big prophetic event to be the rapture of His Church.

    So I live as if each hour may be my last. Prayerfuly asking for forgiveness and the salvation of all thoes I love.

    Just my thoughts.
    Steve

  43. foreverblessed says:

    About Romans 11 about the christians and the Jews,
    I left out the most important verses:
    v 30 Just as you who were at one time disobiedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may receive Gods mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
    32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience that He may have mercy on them all.

    How about that? Who can understand God’s way? v33-36 and here Paul realy starts to glorify God. To Him be glory forever! Amen

  44. heypudin says:

    Praise God and in his time and then will we be lifted up to be with God for eternity and not to worry about prophecy as long as our hearts are right with God and we repent and accept our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ as our personal Savior.

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