Text Size: Zoom In

Care and Convictions

Our “Good Conversation” has surfaced a couple of points that I think are very important.

None of us want our moral advocacy, political involvement, or lack of political involvement to indicate a lack of concern for others. In fact, we probably would all like to believe that we support political action or inaction based on what we believe is good for everyone.

Just as our discussion has not resulted in disagreement about whether we should care about others, we haven’t spent time disagreeing whether the moral issues being debated by our society are right or wrong.

We probably would also acknowledge together that the New Testament doesn’t say anything about citizens’ moral advocacy efforts because Caesars didn’t give all Roman citizens the option of voting on public policy.

But where some of us part ways is how we relate to public moral advocacy.

So here are some questions:

1. Does the kingdom of God, as it now exists, grow by the kind of public moral and legal policies that were in force during the days of Israel’s theocracy (rule of God)? In other words do we believe that the Ten Commandments, and all supporting case law, as found in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, should be the rule of the land in the United States? If not all, which of the Ten commandments should be law?

2. If we do believe that any or all of the 10 commandments should be law today, from what we’ve seen of the way recent political elections are fought in the media, do we think that public political elections will put in the best light our convictions in the need for the following?

  1. No God but the God of the Exodus
  2. No images of God
  3. No misuse of the name of God
  4. No work on the 7th day
  5. No dishonoring of parents
  6. No murder
  7. No adultery
  8. No stealing
  9. No false accusations
  10. No coveting

3. If we do think that we’d personally line up for any of these in a public election, do we think it would be good for followers of Christ– as a whole– to be pitted against followers of Islam, Hinduism, or Atheism  in such an election? Is that how we think we can best show care for our neighbors or enemies?

PS Caught the animals on recent walks. Seems to me that they were as wary of me as some of our neighbors, friends, and enemies are afraid of our faith.


Vote on whether you think this post is something you'll be thinking about:
Vote This Post DownVote This Post Up (+41 rating, 44 votes)
Loading...
66 Comments »

66 Responses to “Care and Convictions”

  1. noelb says:

    It seems to me that we are very selective about the issues we want to support or not support and I suspect this comes as a result of our own prejudices because we have not been exposed to the whole counsel of God and taught to think Biblically. As a result, our cultural perspectives cloud our thinking like it did the Jews, their religious leaders and even the Apostles who applied their social/cultural thinking even to their expectation of a messiah who would deliver them from the Romans. I guess we must work hard at not being conformed to this world’s thinking but be transformed by the renewal of our minds. As someone said, the church has not gone to the world, the world has come into the church!

  2. SFDBWV says:

    Thanks Mart for sort of changing the topic, I like the animal pictures. There is always a skunk somewhere.

    The matter of whether to place all of Jewish law upon the Churches non Jewish believers was addressed at the outset of Christianity.

    So to try and set up a nation of laws that emulate them isn’t what God intends for other nations.

    However, since the laws covering the wellbeing and protection of each citizen, are outlined in the framework of Both the ten commandments and the more indepth laws of Moses; We adopt laws from them that are good for our society.

    If you take a look at laws that are on the books in most every state and municipality. You will find old laws that, are not enforced today.

    They include laws against, adultery, cursing in public, men and women living together( not married ), “blue laws such as no sale of alchohol on Sunday are inforced in some states. Sodomy laws are inforced when adults force or co join such actiivity with minors.

    What I am saying is that our law makers that came before us, made immoral living illegal. Placing the violation of such activity to be seen as wrong and punishable to the general public. It also taught children that such activities were wrong and unacceptable behavior in society.

    Why, don’t we still see immoral living as wrong? One possibility is that our modern lawmakers, have repealed such laws and so place the burden of deciding what is right and wrong living up to the individual to determine.

    Few will argue that, stealing and murder are acceptable social behavior. But go into any court room and listen to lawyers twist the truth in order to get thiefs and murderers off the hook.

    A society without laws is an anarchy. A society without moral laws is a society that is moraly bankrupt and so suffer at the hands of immoral people.

    We enact laws to protect. Not to force beliefs.

  3. ellavl says:

    Actually, we shouldn’t be concerned with any of those things. The Lord sanctified us and set us apart from the “world”. We are not “of” the world, only “in” it for a short time.
    The only thing we should be concerned with is doing what Jesus did; we are, after all, supposed to reflect Him and His life. Jesus wasn’t the least bit concerned with the government of the world, he was concerned with the lost souls of his children. He wanted people to know that God loved them and that he was here to save them from eternal hell.
    We can change the world, not through changing governments, but through the changing of individual people, one at a time; by showing them the way to the cross, so that Jesus can change their hearts.

  4. foreverblessed says:

    Just a look at the list, and I do back off.
    Yes, you made your point clear by doing this.

    I thought the founding fathers did separate the church from the government, otherwise you have the Middle Ages all over again.
    Sorry, I am more busy with the Church, and my particular concern is the legalistic approach to obeying God in many christians.
    As a child of God we died to the law. And we are made alive in Christ. So for a guide fo life, we now look to the source of Life, the Holy Spirit flowing through us. We do not look at the law anymore to guide us, we have died to it.
    What has that message to do with society? It is the message of reconciliation through Christ.
    Out of free choice.
    (actually the same as noelb and ellavl)

  5. foreverblessed says:

    No amount of law keeping can constraint the sinfull nature.
    Col 2:23 such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom,.. but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgance.
    I am a woman, not too bad looking, when I visit legalistic churches, guess what happens, these men, keeping diligently the laws, knowing very well what sin is, know all the moral laws, and yet the way they look at me. Then I think, who can point them to the Living Source, the real life? The Life flowing through us cleanses us, fresh new life, getting out the dirt in our minds, the sinful desires.

  6. Godmakesmeable says:

    No one can take away our freedom in Christ- but we should expect persecution. What a strange turning point in our culture as americans- I think of the believers suffering for their faith in other countries. Chinese thrown in jail for sharing what they believe and on and on. protection of self is never advocated by Jesus from what I can tell- or family- or society. So when we see the things we love taken away from us- should we look those who are doing it in the eye and say “okay, if that is what you want-I love you more than these things. More than my family, more than my own freedom.” Count the cost of following Christ. All is in God’s hands. Leave it in God’s hands. Do we really trust him – or our own ability to protect ourselves?

  7. Jing says:

    Over 200 years ago our founding fathers established this nation based on Christian principles. I know President Obama declared “We are no longer a Christian nation” but we were and are. I don’t believe all the ten commandments could be law because God has made us all “free moral agents”. When Christ came he offered salvation to “whosoever will” to take up their cross and follow him. Our country was never intended to be a ruling church but without question, advocated God’s laws and the bibical principles. We as Christians, had better look at it different. If we are going to portray the likeness of Christ to the world, then we must follow the ten commandments. Mart, your point #3 in perspective. We better be lined up against them or we’re already in trouble breaking the first commandment. You mentioned the election process in this point. That’s why…..why else would a Christian not vote pro-life, anti abortion, against gay marriage, etc. This is what followers of Christ do. You can’t walk hand in hand with the devil and portray yourself a follower of Christ. How could we ever get anyone converted if we pat them on the back and tell them they’re already okay. Christ came to seek and to save those that are lost. How are we portraying the image of Christ?

  8. Godmakesmeable says:

    I don’t want to do anything to “try” to FORCE someone to make any choice against their will. God himself is big enough to allow us to make our choice and not force us to obey him. Laws mean force because of punishment for disobeying a law. How can we truly LOVE those who make choices different than we do. Can there be peace between those who want to expose the truth and those who want to hide it? Those who run to it and those who run away? Christ is freedom. Talk is cheap- we have to live that freedom not protect what we have accumulated: wealth, family( how scarey!), national freedom even? But give it all and trust God that the outcome is His.

  9. Godmakesmeable says:

    If we accept persecution on an individual basis- this is what I think we must do for love of those who are lost. Not stop sharing what we believe, but leave the consequences and what happens to us as a result to God. Put ourselves out there as we are and as we believe. Think of Paul and all his disciples. Paul never promoted any agenda but love of Christ. Christ and Him crucified. His suffering was even a source of joy. Boy would I like to say I was at that point…but that is where God comes in – at our point of humanness and weakness. The abandonment of our lives to his way, truth and life.

  10. Godmakesmeable says:

    patience and trust to even the point of death. Where does my hope come from? Christ says “follow me”.

  11. poohpity says:

    Actually King James IV & I was the first to evangelize America with the Greatest Literary Art project in the world, the translation of the Bible into English in 1611. Although it caused the big rift between the Protestant Church and the Catholic Church. The Church of Scotland believed that every person should be able to read the bible for themselves the Catholic Church believed that only the heads of the church should be able to read it.

    I brought this up because in an attempt to evangelize America those folks pushed their beliefs down the throats of the Native Americans. We have learned since then that more people are brought to the Lord through love rather than oppression.

    I do not know about many of you but I came to love the Lord because I heard of the love He had for me when He gave His life on the Cross for my sins. That gave me the freedom to either accept that sacrifice or not. I have found that living in Him is what changes me not other people telling me how I need to change. It was love that brought me to the Cross and it is His love that holds me there.

    People have good intentions by pointing out the law but that is not the freedom I have in Christ. His laws are written on my heart and are for the intent to not hurt other people or myself. In our zeal to be holy we tend to develop an attitude of it is my way or the highway. We sometimes forget the sacrifice of love and that is what truly brings people to the Cross.

  12. SufromTexas says:

    How about we just start small?
    Take care of our own grandmother, put the SS $$ in the bank to pay her taxes and actually take care of her ourself?

    Work in our own community to help one pregnant girl to have her baby, and educate her on adoption if she is interested?

    I am sure that many of you will call me naive, and I am not saying remove ourselves from the political debate. But if you let your grandmother depend on SS $ and then complain about no COLA increases, are you making sense? If you complain about the money that the government spends and yet you yourself benefit from that money are you a hypocrite?

    The reason that our government tends toward socialism, and away from our Christian founding fathers’ principles is that the church has given up our responsibilities! The church’s basic responsibilities were to “take care of widows and orphans in their distress”. If everyone would take care of their family and one or two more, we could get out from this governmental “we will take care of you umbrella”.

    Don’t argue “what about the poor people” if you aren’t doing your part.

  13. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    This is an interesting topic.
    We all need laws, especially the Law of God, else we would never have sinned and we would never have known how much God loved us. The law is what defines us “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God” Thank God for Jesus Christ, The Messiah, our Saviour.
    I also agree with the comments above about careing for our older relatives etc. etc. We in Britain are put to shame by the extended family culture of our Asian/Indian neighbours. They all pull together in running their businesses and look after each others ill and elderly.
    Even the church relies on the state when it comes to social care.
    I have recently lost my Job, and thank God I live in a country that will pay my rent and some taxes until I get myself on my feet again. But wouldn’t it be great if there was a network of Christians doing the same. Jesus said “If I be lifted up I will draw men unto me” Let’s start loving the Lord our God with all our heart, Soul and mind and our neighbour as ourselves.
    There is no other law needed.

  14. poohpity says:

    In the bible there was set up care for those in the church that needed help. I believe Stephen was one that was an administrator of that care ministry. The Lord also confronts the religious folks for not providing for their own family’s care rather than displaying their tithes. If you love someone then you will do the best for that person. If the Church did more for the well being of it’s members then those folks would give back the same way. Boy would that be nice. Instead of being overly concerned about acquiring things and be more about giving it would be amazing.

  15. wretch-like-me says:

    Dear Friends and Children of God:
    How wonderful it is to read and experience your struggles to understand what God is calling us to do!!! heart-felt ideas and beliefs fleshed out before us… God Bless you all for ‘rolling up your sleeves’ and working towards a better life in Christ.

    I missed most of yesterday’s blog do to a day-long trip to the city for appointments; but, would like to respond to questions and comments made there before moving to today’s.

    DMG:
    Thanks, your apology is warmly accepted and I do not view you as the enemy (nor do I believe does Steve). Regarding the ‘Hate-crimes’ bill, it is the loosely worded document itself that give me angst. We have seen ‘well-intended’ statements misinterpreted, here. Imagine what a ‘law’ would be like! The evil one loves to twist meaning and deceive us with ‘false labels’. One flag that went up for me was the way this ‘amendment’ was discreetly tagged to a bill (funding military spending) that had little to do with it but was sure to be passed. The ‘hate crimes’ bill had failed previously when offered alone.

    While I am not a lawyer or legislator, I have learned to trust certain sources for their input; one of which is Focus on the Family and there ‘family’ member organizations.

    Bob in Cornwall:
    Our Savior did indeed have a wonderful way with all he encountered. I suspect it was because He, being their creator, knew exactly what their struggles were and what He could say and do to reach them… some He fed, some He healed, some He comforted with words & touch. He cried with some; laughed with some; partied and drank with some. He helped, encouraged and taught all by His example both in word and deed. However, when it came to sin there was never any doubt of His position. He was gentle and at the same time firm. He could be stern… even angry. All who encountered HIM were confronted with their sin. How they responded was their freedom of choice.

    I believe that was also the intention of America’s founding fathers. They wanted to create a nation like none before. It would be based upon Christian principles of fairness to all regardless of race, color, creed, wealth, sex or social status. Granted these ‘men’ lived in an environment and culture that would seem almost barbaric to us today.

    At the time, all acknowledged the existence of God regardless of how they lived. Most held a Christian concept. Many of our founding fathers were schooled in seminaries. All were independent business owners and plantation/farmers. Slavery was an accepted practice despite already falling out of favor. Women were not viewed as equals to men.

    The original constitution contained words that spoke clearly enough during their day. Those who came after needed amendments to clarify errors of interpretation. Issues such as ‘states’ rights, the right to vote for people of color/women, taxation, representation, consumption of alcohol, electoral college, presidential terms of office & succession, etc.

    I find interesting that God gave us ten commandments. We could not seem to keep them.

    Mosaic Law compounded that with explanations and rituals to the hundreds.

    Our constitution began with ten rules known as the Bill of Rights and has been expanding ever since (some passed and later revoked; others passed but never ratified by the states). What continues to be disagreement over ‘interpretation’.

    I believe that is why America’s founding fathers tried to keep it simple by adopting the ten commandments as our guide and refusing to name a specific church as ‘official’.

    What happened next was a struggle over ‘separation of church and state’ and resulting fallout over that vested government ‘charity’ instead of where it belongs with the individual. Charles Dickens slammed that idea with ‘Scrooge’ and the reference to the state owned ‘work-houses for the poor’.

    Earlier someone said that nowhere in scripture is there an example of Christians using the political system to affect change. I beg to differ since Paul used his Roman citizenship to preach the gospel to authorities in Rome. I believe we should take full advantage of the system to work within its structure to apply God’s laws to government.

    Regardless of our laws, those officials we elect will (as we have readily seen) choose for themselves whether to operate within them, change them or ignore them. That is why, in my opinion, it is best to consider all aspects of a persons character including past public and personal behavior before casting a ballot in their favor. I wish it were enough to elect professing Christians. Sadly, that just isn’t true.

    Huggs
    frank

  16. wretch-like-me says:

    Bob In Cornwell:
    couldnt agree more with you.

    Pooh:
    My wife and I have a special cupboard we stock with things we find good deals on just so we can share our blessings with others in need…friends, family, strangers. You would be amazed at the Spirit’s leading.

    Have a separate post pending approval that lists the website for more on ‘hate crimes’ legislation…
    Stay Tuned…LOL

    Huggs
    frank

  17. Jing says:

    poohpity-wretch, couldn’t agree with you more. SufromTexas said it best “the church has given up our responsibilities!” There certainly wouldn’t be all the discussion of taxes, government programs if we as the Church were doing our job with the poor and the elderly. Remember what the Pharisee’s (lawyer) asked Jesus what the greatest comandment was? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

  18. jjhis says:

    It has been amazing to me over the years of reading The Daily Bread how many times the day’s devotion speaks to what is going on in my life. Just like today’s “Conflict Resolution” which I’m sure many have read, helps to focus us on Christ as we read the posts and respond with our own thoughts. We have such strong convictions about these topics that it does seem to bring out the “hate” (as in the hatred of evil) in us. Too often,though, this results in the hatred of another person and breaks the commandment which Jesus gave us–the law of love. So help us Lord to speak the truth with love.
    Politics is about the power of man. True government, as ordained by God(Romans 13), is about the power of God. While I am not a history major, it seems as if laws established by governments are necessary in order to determine who is a wrongdoer. Who decides what the laws are? While we realize that laws cannot make a person good, do they not serve the purpose of establishing what is good conduct and give the authorities the right to judge(see Romans 13:2-4)? We have heard that “you can’t legislate morality”. One thing for sure is that immorality has been legislated in our country. Someone’s morality, or lack thereof, will be legislated. So while we know that we must love those of another faith or those of no faith, do we show that by not getting involved in the public debate or by being silent when the “hate crimes” legislation tells us what good conduct is?

  19. Jing says:

    Mart-wanted to add…beautiful pictures of the wildlife. Makes you appreciate God’s creation..One major difference with you though. I would never get close enough to a skunk to get that good of a picture!

  20. jjhis says:

    P.S. Got to go now. My wife, daughter and myself have been caregiving for my 92 year old mom for over two years in an effort to keep her off the government roll and to keep her in her own home. We continue to pay property taxes and have been paying FICA taxes on her two other caregivers. My mom has long since spent her savings and we are getting mortgage on her home in order to keep her there until the Lord takes her home or calls her up to meet Him in the air. We praise the Lord that He has been our refuge and our helper. By the way, mom worked for over 40 years and paid social security until she retired at age 65.

  21. poohpity says:

    It was my blessing to also care for my mom the last year of her life. She allowed me to start doing her bookkeeping and never knew of the finances I put into help her. She spent the last year of her life not considering any of her finances which took a big load off of her shoulders even before we found out about her cancer. I feel sooo very blessed to have been able to do that.

    jjhis,
    Before I read beenthinking I read ODB and the bible passages and I agree with you it seems to always have something applicable for the day. The blessing we get when we just give time to the Lord before our day begins. Amen!

  22. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Nearly midnight here now and I am watching the political review programs on TV. Strange, they are going on about Ground Hog Day. Our parliament has just returned after the summer resess and it seems the same old subjects are being talked about, expences scandal, The Credit Crunch, Afganistan, and our dislike of the prime minister, Gordon Brown. I imagine it is just the same in the USA. Is there no end to this man made mess we are in. I am coming rapidly to the conclussion that what Mart has stated in the ten commandments and the Kingdom of God are the only way. Jesus told us to love our enemies, so we should not stand againts Islam, Hinduism or atheism. Our stand should not be political but moral and a life example. We were told to go into the world and make disciples, that word means disciplin. We are to be disciplined in the way we act and treat other people. Now as a so called “Gay” person
    who am I to talk. Seems this blog is having a profound effect on me. Maybe one day the word gay will drop away from my mindset. at 56 years old it would be strange for me, but all things are possible with Jesus on your side.
    xxx Bob

  23. wretch-like-me says:

    Bob in Cornwell:
    AMEN AMEN AND AMEN!!!

    Huggs, Brother
    frank

  24. poohpity says:

    Yes, Bob, foremost you are a “child of God”. Hugs and love from across the pond.

  25. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Thanks Frank and Poohpity

  26. rokdude5 says:

    I remember long ago a class where the instructor talked about living under two axises – whats legal and whats moral. For example there are acts that are illegal and immoral – murder for example. Then you have whats moral and legal – marriage between a man and a woman. But then you get into the difficult zones – whats immoral but legal – pornography and whats moral but illegal – praying in school.

    The last 6 Commandments are about how we treat each other so in my mind, any form of government that would denounce those Commandments would be foolhardy if they do. The first four Commandments are about what God wants from us so we wont jeopardize our relationship with Him. Of course there are a lot governments locally and internationally that dont want Him around.

    I keep thinking what Jesus once said – Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give God what belongs to God. With that in my mind, I dont think an elected Christian official should “pit him or herself” against some other elected official just on the basis on beliefs (unless there is some direct attack on Christianity. Lets face it…some Christians do rather poorly being politicians.)

    On a personal note, Im still trying to figure out what is meant by “no work” on Sundays (or Sabbath.) In a strict sense, that means just chilling and be holy…no working in the yard, no laundry, just foraging on leftovers, not purchasing anything which in turn, could cause some one else to work on the Sabbath. Granted there are a lot things going on the Sabbath – hospitals, military, civic officials and staff, prisons, etc, all still need to be on duty.

    Lord, I really dont want to defile Your Day.

    Bob – Phil 4:13 comes to mind.

  27. Ojone says:

    Personally, I think that all countries would be in a better shape if the 10 commandments were the laws governing them. however,followers of Islam etc would probably believe their ways to be the most effective. As believers, maybe we should pray for our legislators to do what is right before God and man irrespective of their personal faith.

  28. SFDBWV says:

    Parasite…a person who lives at the expense of another or others without making any useful contribution or return; hanger on.

    The entire subject matter we have been addressing these past few days have left me with an unanswered uncomfortableness.

    So here goes,

    How can we live in this world and not be a part of it? There have been people who try all the time. Monks ,the Amish, Zealots, cults of every type and name. But the reality of the situation is that we are here now.

    What kind of example of Christ would we be if we shown the rest of the world that we didn’t care for the issues and coditions around us?

    Can we really live in the world around us and not try to make life and living better for ourselves and others?

    Where is it said that just because we are Christian, that we are not allowed to effect the world we live in?

    We all can’t be preachers and pastors, that is a calling. Some of us have to be miners, and bus drivers,waitresses and clerks, loggers and carpenters, teachers and nurses. I can of course go on.

    The point is that we may belong to another kingdom and we may long to be there. But we live here now.

    What kind of ingrate would I be to not appreciate the efforts of all the people who have went before me in making life better for us all. Many who died doing so.

    How could I say I love others and allow others to suffer just because they are of this world and I am not?

    A good Christian upbringing should produce a person with a good work ethic and a good attitude of citizenship.

    Good citizenship requires participating in being a good neighbor and aiding in the effort to create the best life we can for ourselves and our neighbors.

    Paul never told us to be parasites and live off the efforts of others. I am not only talking of making wages and paying our way. Nor am I refering to thoes of us who are disabled or retired. No I am talking of contributing to our society in anyway we can.

    I live in the best nation on Earth. I can say that because we have been blessed by God in every effort we have put forth as a people. Yes the rest of the world hates us, they are jealous of us.

    Yes Satan hates us, we lead the world in Christian evangelisim.

    Becaue we live here now, it is up to us to create a good wholesome moral land to live in for all of us. A good moral environment to raise our children in. And yes a country that is the envy of the world.

    It starts within your heart to be holy, then spreads to your house and household, then to all you possess own and effect.

    My guidelines and blueprint to create that good wholesome land is found there within the pages of the Bible. All of it.

    It is my responsibility to aid in making good Christian values the norm of life,in this my home my community, my country. I would be guilty of many errors to allow the enemy of all good things to succede in corrupting, this my home and country, into sinful living becoming the normal lifestyle for all of its citizens.

    Christ is the base, the cornerstone upon all that we build.

    Steve

  29. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, the 4th commandment is meant spiritually:
    come to rest in Christ, stop with your own work.
    (Hebrews 4:9 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own works)
    Each day should be in the rest. Never out of the Sabbath anymore.

    Is that really what God wants. Doesn’t He want you to come to rest in Him.
    The first disciples did that, they did that by praying together in one accord. They didn’t do anything. Did not create a plan, a working scheme. They waited for the Holy Spirit. And when He came, He did not give them a plan or anything, they went as they were inspired.
    What if we would pray about the country, like someone suggested in the former topic.
    Prayin, and listening to what the Spirit answers. But is we are too upset about the moral dicline (and that w christians allowed that moral decline) we cannot hear the answer God is giving us.
    The Sabbath is saying come to rest in Me, Jesus.

    Let me give an example: My granddad in the years before Worldwar II was very aware of the Hitler movement, and he foresaw that this would become a disaster in Europe. He wanted to warn, was sooooo busy warning people around him. He became in a depressed state, overexerted himself. Hitler came anyway.
    Would he have known the will of God, he would know this was the way it would go, Hitler would conquer Europe.

    I mentioned Rees Howell here before, they were a group of christians in Whales, that started to pray together during the war, 120 people, they did not drink alcohol, fasted a lot. Fasting is usefull in humbling yourself, in coming to rest in your own mind and tuning in on what God says.
    They did not decide that themselves, the Holy Spirit told them to do this.
    It was because of prayer that the Allies could defeat Hitler. On D day, the weather was just OK for crossing the Canal.
    (DMG, just read the book about him, and then we will talk again about doing good works and preaching the gospel).

  30. wretch-like-me says:

    Steve:
    Right on!… old rules come to mind at your post. “leave your campsite in better shape than you found it!” If all of us lived by that rule how could we not have a positive impact on the world we live in?

    Bible study last night added a new concept to my understanding… Our God is a JEALOUS God! When we pursue things of this world, we behave as ‘unfaithful’ brides of Christ. When we behave as ‘righteous and faithful brides’ we bless the world with our actions and in doing so reflect His Glory and are a credit to His Name.

    I am tired of being ‘seduced’ by the world… How wonderful it is to be forgiven for my ‘unfaithfulness’! I choose this day to stop ‘echoing’ the tiny voice inside that encourages me to focus on the things that are unsatisfied, bitter, frustrating, or ‘wrong’ with my situation.

    Instead I choose to celebrate the things that are good, happy, righteous and a blessing from God.

    Won’t you join me?

    Huggs
    frank

  31. Mart De Haan says:

    I hear what you’re saying, Steve. I agree that it would be immoral for us to be parasites. But I’m convinced that wisdom requires us to think very carefully about what we have to offer as we live out our dual citizenship.

    The issue is not whether we care, but how we care.

    Some kinds of caring are self-defeating and make matters worse. Ban the book in Boston and make it a best seller.

    Seems to me that when followers of Christ leave the “spiritual war of our mission” to become involved in “civilian affairs”… in the sense of aligning with moral coalitions with political parties that are inspired by the tone, style, and mudslinging of talk radio/tv hosts, and spiritual extremists who do not reflect the attitudes of Christ… we become unequally yoked in ways that make it much more difficult to represent the Lord of whom it was said, “the law came through Moses but grace and truth through Jesus Christ.”

    The work at hand to contribute grace,truth, advocacy, and doing good for those who need our help is much too important for us to entangle our shared reputation in the cutthroat tactics of partisan politics.

  32. foreverblessed says:

    WLM, thank God! And stay there
    You know what, when we dwell in the mercy of God, our God is going to work through us to bring mercy to others.
    Romans 1:31
    His ways are upside down from normal logic.
    So we do not have to be afraid to be parasites (I did not understand what Steve meant)

  33. phpatato says:

    I agree with what is being said, that we should start our Christian living (and the moral values that go with that) with ourselves, and, as a droplet of water, the ripple effect will take place. We should live what we want our heritage to be….Godly, loving, caring, peaceful individuals that mirrors Christ. We should strive that our eulogies be filled with words such as them. By example, we should be touching those around us with His love.

    But…. are you saying Mart that maybe it’s best that we leave the arena of politics and not vote at all? By voting are we not, in fact, aligning with “a” party and all it represents and stands for (because we can’t just pick and choose on a ballot what we agree with in the party and what we don’t). If you aren’t saying that, then where does the line get drawn without becoming unequally yoked? How can we advocate without participating?

  34. Mart De Haan says:

    phpatato,
    I definitely believe that as citizens we have a responsibility to vote, and to vote as citizens who want to give others the same kind of citizen’s rights we want for ourselves…

    Seems to me that government service for those who are called into it (including political candidacy) is a noble and important calling.

    But as individual voters, as with elected public servants, we do not treat “government” or “public policy” the way we would treat the church, or church policy.

    Church and State are two different institutions with very different roles.

    If we as followers of Christ don’t realize that and act accordingly, we can begin to posture in political ways and even pressure other members of the body of Christ to vote party ticket rather than recognizing that we all need to vote in a manner that reflects what we believe a good government should be in a day of religious pluralism.

  35. rokdude5 says:

    Thanks to Foeverblessed and Phillip…I will look into Hebrew 4.

  36. SFDBWV says:

    A dark cold, snow and rain mixed day here. (37 degrees) Good for setting around with friends having what ever drink warms us up, and discussing our hearts thoughts.

    I want so much to be totaly at peace and at rest. I can for a time, but then life around me will not let me have that peace I seek, for very long. Because the battle is new every day.

    A call to arms is my battle cry. Satan and his agents are relentless. So I must be also.

    Mart, we agree that there is nothing more important than the work of salvation. If I am to reflect Christ to a lost and sinful people, I must show them something different than the world already does.

    I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah. The Christ. I also believe that same Christ is God. I know of the three part structure of God, because He is exposed as being such, from Genesis through Revelation.

    The nature and character of God, also is shown from Alpha thru Omega. From Genesis through Revelation.

    Christ is a reflection of the Father. The whole Father. We are to reflect Christ and in so doing reflect God’s nature as well.

    Satan is refered to as the accuser, because he accuses us before God.

    I do not want any to think I accuse anyone. Rather, I say that we must live in this world as the example of being holy. I know, we, all of us, fail to be fully holy. For that is impossible for us. But we are to be as God would have us be, now, as in His coming Kingdom.

    My examples of how to live is shown from the story of choice, as given in the Garden of Eden, through each and every story God recorded throughout the OT, of mans successes and failures.

    In accepting Christ, my sins are covered by the innocent blood of the Lamb of God. There is nothing more I can ever do, that can match or equal that act of sacrifice Jesus made for me.

    I now belong to Him. I can rest from my worry of being lost.

    But my work is not done. The great commission is to spread the good news that sin has been defeated and forgiveness is available to all who ask for it. through Jesus Christ.

    Who will believe me? That I represent Christ/God, if I do nothing to live, as His great work (the Bible) has taught me? And if I do not follow the unction of God through the Holy Spirit?

    Why would an unbeliever think me any different, from the world, if I simply did good things such as feed the hungry and clothe the poor? The “good Samaritan” did this.

    No, The coming of Christ forever changed and divided the society of man. Paul did not rest, he worked hard to establish believers, believers changed the world they lived in one person at a time. But the world, the society they lived in changed because of them.

    Our society, is threatened all the time by Satan and his agents. We can chose to either be observers or to stand against the agents of darkness that threaten the very eternal souls of our children and neighbors.

    It is not that political people influence me, I would rather, it to be, that I enfluence them.

    Steve

  37. daisymarygoldr says:

    Another very intense topic that is hard to chew and I liked the way you built it on the previous one to help us see the different ways followers of Christ are convinced about how to care…

    This confusion about each other’s convictions is because Christians in this country cannot distinguish Caesar/state from Christ/church. However, all Christians do not think that way and that is perfectly evidenced in the comments made by noelb, ellavl, Godmakesmeable… who have clearly figured it all out and rockdude5 you have hit the nail right on the head!

    There is a need for balance…if people attempt to mix up Caesar with Christ it will only lead to disaster for both i.e. the state becomes weak and the church proclaims an ineffective gospel. If an enemy country gets into this country and succeeds in killing innocent civilian masses, Christians cannot be anti war… that is to weaken the country’s security. On the other hand, if the government is passing laws to protect a minority, Christians cannot fight against its legislation, that is to taint the love of Christ.

    So, it is time to wake up from our dreams. President Obama is 100% right in saying “Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation – at least, not just. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, and a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers…”. And if considered with spiritual discernment, ‘all’ 84% Christian majority are not ‘all’ Christians.

    Speaking of public moral advocacy, I’m thinking that some of us want to have it all ways, don’t we? We want to enjoy the perks of a democracy and at the same time pretend this to be a theocracy and even go to the extent of trying to exercise control as in a monarchy. A democracy that is made of and by the people cannot enforce Biblical principles if all of its elected representatives do not follow the Bible.

    This is true even for the only physical nation on earth that is chosen of God—Israel, which exists today as a democracy. If their secular congress votes in favor of accepting the antichrist as their leader what can their God-fearing religious minority do?

  38. daisymarygoldr says:

    Mart, I agree the Kingdom of God as it exists now is based on God’s Law of love… but I’m not sure I agree with you when you say that it should not be the rule of the land in the United States. The Ten Commandments given to Moses are the moral dictates of God and is not meant just for Israel alone…and regardless of whether all accept it or not, because of the knowledge of good and evil, it cannot be denied that every human being has the inborn knowledge of right and wrong. In fact, even a child is known of his doings.

    So as Steve said, some sort of enforcement is necessary to prevent everyone from doing what is right in their own eyes and cause social anarchy. Rom 13 in The Msg reads: “The police aren’t there just to be admired in their uniforms. God also has an interest in keeping order, and he uses them to do it.”

    It must be noted though, this Law of Love which Jesus enforced, is no piece of cake… it is stricter than the Laws of Moses. For ex. the sin adultery may be interpreted differently by non Christians and Christians who follow the law of love. It is in that context, we cannot use the law of God to control a natural, fallen, sinful society and attempt to regulate their behavior. How can an unbeliever who does not have the God’s spirit know and understand His moral truths?

    However, there is only one place where we allow for the use of God’s Law to regulate social conduct. Paul urges young Timothy to “using the Law lawfully” I Tim 1:8-10. The Church is the training ground for Christians to learn how to express the character of God— we abide by the Ten Commandments out of our love for God… not in order to be saved from sins or show ourselves as righteous. Obedience to God’s commandments prepares us for the Kingdom of God which is to come on earth.

    I also do not agree that our faith scares neighbors, enemies and friends. We already discussed that in the BC/AD blog. Those who love their sins hate the light of God’s holiness because their deeds are dark and evil. In 1Cor 14: 24-25 Paul us teaching us to stand for and speak the truth such that if “an unbeliever or untaught outsider comes in, he is told of his sin and reproved and convicted and convinced by all…The secrets of his heart are laid bare; and so, falling on [his] face, he will worship God, declaring that God is among you in very truth.”

    In Matt 7, Christ warns us that “those who practice lawlessness cannot enter the kingdom of God” and anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. Matt 5: 19 So, Jing and Steve you should not feel discouraged… Save your passionate zeal and energy to legislate moral truths for that day when you will rule along with Christ:) because in the millennial reign of Christ, God’s law will be enforced from Zion… with an iron rod!

  39. daisymarygoldr says:

    Reader discretion is advised for those who cannot tolerate clanging cymbals:) This is my understanding of why God’s law is universal in its application: It is eternal… it is His very character/image and His commandments are forever (Ps. 119:152).

    It was enforced even before the creation of man and is meant for the whole world… not just for the folks of exodus. In the Garden of Eden the earthly Adam broke God’s law, sinned against God’s command and hence failed to manifest the image of God. They ate of the tree of good and evil and as a result lost the right to the tree of life…

    …but because Abraham obeyed God and kept His commands, statutes, and laws (Gen 26:4-5), God chose to reveal His Holy character to his descendants by giving them the Laws, for them to be holy and reflect the image of God. Even they could not keep those laws, hence the need for animal sacrifices. Israel in OT is a physical type or forerunner of the Kingdom of God.

    The spiritual Adam—Christ fulfilled the law to perfectly express the image of God and for followers of Christ, “The commandments are God’s spiritual laws” (Rom. 7:14). So, for all of us who claim to follow Him… to love God and our neighbors as ourselves, we complete the law code—we don’t sleep with another person’s spouse, don’t take someone’s life, don’t take what isn’t ours, don’t always be wanting what we don’t have…etc and etc.

    Therefore, it is not politically, socially or religiously but only through a personal relationship and intimacy with the Lord Jesus Christ, anyone can manifest the Holy character of God. Just as breaking physical laws results in physical consequences, breaking spiritual laws results in spiritual consequences. Therefore, in Christ “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life…” (Rev 22:14)!

  40. daisymarygoldr says:

    Finally to SufromTexas:) you are right we should take care of the needy in our own families first. Christians should help the widows in the family and not let the church be burdened with them. The church’s responsibility is to help the real widow in need. 1 Tim 5

    The Bible teaches us that …it is not just the church in general but the responsibility of each one of us specifically “to look after orphans and widows in their distress”…that is just the first half of the truth. The Pharisees exactly did that… publicly giving alms to the poor so they could be seen and thought of by others as righteous. We must never take pride to proclaim our acts of charity… rather when we give to the needy, we should not let your left hand know what our right hand is doing.

    If we blow our own horns about our good works, and pat our backs to take credit for doing good, they will never be accepted by God… it is a faulty and impure religion. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: “to look after orphans and widows in their distress” and— to keep oneself from being polluted by the world” i.e. to Love God and to love others. Often, the first half of the truth is conveniently ignored…

    foreverblessed, sorry I am not able to get your point…

    Bob in Cornwall England, you are such a precious part of the body of Christ. You can teach other young Christians about sexual purity and what it means to take advantage of this physical condition to practise a wholehearted devotion to Christ!

  41. poohpity says:

    I believe that it really helps to mind our own business, work hard on what has been given us to do, to be patient toward all men and to be at peace among ourselves. Refraining from grumbling and complaining while doing the work the Lord has given us. That will bring to light our convictions. Keeping our eyes on Jesus and He will guide us with direction on how to serve mankind in His name and that will show how we care.

    There are times when showing examples of service are to teach not to blow ones own horn. God knows the heart of a person when they are serving/giving and the Lord told us to encourage each other in acts of kindness.

  42. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I doubt I will make any other comment on this blog.
    Your nation has lost it,
    You no longer control the planet, if you ever did? We did for four hundred years we know you are a lost nation.
    The age of the gentiles is about to end.
    JESUS is coming for his brethren.
    God Bless America, lol

  43. Godmakesmeable says:

    I kinda wish we could speak specifically and privately to individuals rather than ALWAYS to the whole group. What does that mean about me? Is it ever right to feel that way? Especially around specific issues of agreement or disagreement to be able to be honest but not making a public statement seems like a welcome improvement. Or not? Is this a form of self protection or desire for genuine relationship with individuals without the display?

  44. Godmakesmeable says:

    I guess it wouldn’t be a “blog” anymore. i don’t know.

  45. Godmakesmeable says:

    A facebook set up would be kinda cool- with news feed area for discussion and then you could message individuals for personal discussion. LOL my apologies for the interruption!

  46. marma says:

    We are exhorted in the New Testament to pray for our governments. God still rules over the nations and has the last say, so our first and best course is to pray.

    We need to pray. Philippians 1:9-11 Paul prays that their love may abound more and more and ties it to knowledge and discernment. We need to pray that for each other. Then we need to pray for our government.

    And then as God leads us, we can do good. We still have the freedom to do good in this country, and that seems to me to be a powerful witness. It doesn’t have to be tied to a political group (and is better if it isn’t, in my opinion.)

    Thanks for all your posts…very thought provoking.

  47. wretch-like-me says:

    Bob in Cornwall England:
    I hope you will reconsider your feelings about continuing to post and interact with us. I enjoy hearing your perspectives from the continent and would miss the ‘dischordant’ views.

    I agree that many misguided folks have felt that we ‘control’ the world. I, for one, dont hold that belief; in fact, I abhor the idea of one world govt.

    But, I do believe that every citizen of the world owes a debt to his country to be involved in public service as permitted by that society. We are, each of us, called to better the plight of our fellow countrymen by our creator.

    I know this is true of christianity and other religions. what separates christians from nonchristians is grace, forgiveness, and a Savior who is not ONLY God but also fully human. If we do not begin there, we will almost always end up at different destinations.

    Regardless of your decision to continue to blog with us, God Bless You.

    Huggs
    frank

  48. foreverblessed says:

    This is about the ten commandments, and the Church.
    I thought that Jesus was pointing us to a higher form of living, not living by the commandments, burn your boats and follow Him.
    I do not mean that we can break the law, no we keep it:
    we do not steal, not kill, not sexually impure, not covet.

    What I want to say is this:
    When in the kitchen, while cooking, you tell a little child:
    Watch the stove, do not touch, you will burn yourself. Now, that is the Law.
    But keeping the law does not make you cook.
    Your aim is to cook a dinner, and all the time you are saying: do not touch the stove.

    God is waiting patiently for a crop James 5:7-8
    He needs christians that have developed a crop: patience, perseverance, love, goodness Galatians 5:13-26
    That is the cooking of the dinner.
    Live by the Spirit, some have already said this,
    Living by the Spirit is living in faith, praying, humbling yourself, so you can hear the voice of God telling you what to do.

  49. foreverblessed says:

    Each of us have a specific job given to us by God.
    1 Corinthians 12.
    Each of us specifically have , some He will tell to go into the mission field, some to care for their old mother, some to teach children in church.
    It is in my heart to teach the legalist about what God meant with the law.
    Some others have other points on their hearts, but I should not put the job God has given me on another christian, God give each of us a job as He so sees good.
    We are all members of each other, each a different part, each a differnet job.
    I feel often that many press on to tell the government to change their laws. If some feel that way, do it, but do not press that point on other christians. They have other jobs.
    Mart is saying, if you do it, do it in love. Let not christians be known as the people who always say: do not touch the stove.
    (besides, if you have touched a hot stove, you are convinced yourself not to do it.
    While cooking, the main point is not in your mind; I should not touch the stove, is it? You know that already. No you are busy with the ingredients, the vegetables, the oil, the spices. You go out and buy them, maybe even grow them in your own garden)

    Let christians be known for cooking a delicious dinner.

  50. foreverblessed says:

    DMG, it is about doing charitable works, sometimes God tells us just to do that, and not preach yet, first do charity, show your care for the people you minister to. And later will come the preaching of the gospel.
    Read the book about Rees Howell. How God told him to walk alongside an alcoholic man, just keeping him company. And slowly the man was drawn to the meetings of the christians, but that took a long time. He did not preach at him at all for a long time.

  51. Mart De Haan says:

    Have already posted something else this morning to avoid wearing us out…

    But one reason I believe it was so important test one another on this subject is that the record of the Old Testament history of Israel, along with so much Church history, as well as our experience over the last few decades show how misleading it is– not only to marry church and state– but for followers of Christ to look to law for political and social answers…when the consensus of a society’s values no longer support those laws.

    Laws are only as good as the values of the society that makes them.

    Wisdom therefore is needed to help us determine how far we can go with our nation in supporting its sense of rightness.

    Beyond that we need to be about doing the business of letting out lives and words make a case for reconnecting with the source of all right values and relationships– through the life-changing meaning and social implications of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

    Israel’s record together with Church history also shows how difficult it is for the people of God to maintain their credibility… and how inevitably hypocrisy in law and religious practice unleashes the most degrading forces of society.

    Church history as founded on the record of both Testaments shows why those of us who want to be counted among Christ’s people need to focus on our own relationship with him, doing good with and for others, and looking for ways to let others make connections between what we are doing, saying, and really believing.

    The problem as I see it today is not that some individual followers of Christ, or many churches collectively, are trying to do their best to make a case for what is good for society. The problem is in the adulterous marriage of the church with partisan politics (on both sides).

    The problem with that is that there are important moral issues on both sides of the political aisle. War, poverty, health care on one side/sexual standards on the other. Both parties, on both the right and the left, build into their platforms the moral issues that give them a competitive edge in winning an election (not because all members of that party are trying to live within their platform).

    That’s why followers of Christ need to be friends and advocates of all on both sides– in loving, credible ways.. that are not condemning of others… but helpful in showing that receiving and giving the grace of Christ– rather than trying to enact unenforceable laws– is what all of us need.

  52. poohpity says:

    Amen!!

  53. daisymarygoldr says:

    foreverblessed, thanks for clarifying on your point. I’m not sure about Rees Howell but I am eternally sure about Christ’ Commission to the Church: “Go into all the world and preach and publish openly the good news”.

    If He wanted us to do charitable works, He would have commanded us to “Go into all the world and care for the poor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, dig trenches, build homes for the homeless, teach the illiterate, treat the sick, cure AIDS and change the world into a moral society for Christ”. Jesus Himself never did those deeds and neither did any of His disciples.

    foreverblessed, I grew up in a country where 70% of the population lives below the poverty line… poverty as in surviving on $2 per month. Some 40-100 years ago, many Christian missionaries from Europe and America visited those pagan places and preached the pure Gospel of Christ—to teach people about Jesus Christ, the true and living God. Idol worshippers who were converted to Christianity by the sacrificial lives of those missionaries are still going strong generation after generation. As the economic scenario changed in the west and the dollar became their god… sad to say even for the church… the Gospel of Christ was replaced by the social gospel… that is to show love and care for the sick.

    Personally, I have witnessed masses flocking to churches for the food, clothes, houses and the money that was being showered by good-intentioned Americans. And when the dollar stream started to trickle and eventually dried up it led to that bubble of nominal Christianity to burst as entire churches reverted back to their old pagan lifestyles… while some still profess a faith which is neither hot nor cold.

    By God’s grace I had the privilege of growing up in a church that did not stay huddled within a holy group but fanned into blazing flames the spiritual gifts God had equipped us with… and amazingly within less than 2 decades was able to plant more that 10,000 sister assemblies… all in the strength of Christ alone…. No charitable works and no money were involved. Most of the church constituted of poor people… most of us even did not own homes. All we did was to preach the gospel night and day… in all seasons- favorable or unfavorable due to persecution from outside and from within the church…and yes, as and when we were led… we also shared from our material resources in terms of money, food, clothes, medicines…

    The local assembly where my parents fellowshipped and into which I was born, was started by a retired army man who had contracted TB while fighting for the country in the snowing mountain ranges of the Himalayas. A chain smoker, drunkard and Christ hater who burnt Bibles, it is one miraculous story of how Jesus saved this man back then in his early 30’s… from smoking, alcohol, idol worship and TB that had progressed to the final stages beyond medical cures. God enabled him to lead the men in church to establish several churches within the state… no charitable works whatsoever. Today he is almost ~85 and still laboring hard for the Lord…and oh yes, though he is a natural citizen, he never observed any patriotic holidays at home or in church… to pay homage to fallen compatriots or salute the national flag or adulate national leaders… because he is a transformed man who knows that the real purpose of his salvation is to toil for the kingdom of God!

    The enemy is so deceptive to use anything in the name of false human love… charitable works to care for the poor and the sick, social and political works to fight moral ills and injustices… so as to distort the gospel that we are called to preach, disillusion our personal faith, discourage us from our mission, and distract us from doing the work of Christ.

    foreverblessed, hope this is convincing enough for you to know that I am not against charitable works… We can never take credit for charitable works to care for others which God alone is working through us. Yes, the Gospel is both in words and in deeds and I am convinced that Christ has clearly commanded us to publicly preach the words and secretly do the deeds. Thanks so much foreverblessed, for taking the time to listen to this clanging cymbal:)!

  54. foreverblessed says:

    DMG, thanks for clarifying. Now that you have explained it I understand what you wrote.
    But sometimes a careful balanced appraisal (looked that up in the dictionary) is needed. You wrote as stated unbiblical: charity works as missinonary work.
    With your background I can see what you mean, but still it doesn’t mean that it is always unbiblical.
    You can even state that Jesus did charity in that He did heal many people without even asking for repentance, or preaching. So there is no black and white here.
    About Rees Howell, if you can find the book about him, read it. He was called by God, and tought by the Holy Spirit, He said to him to be a buddy to an alcoholic man, without preaching the gospel (yet). I do not know why God did that, it is also possible that God wants to discipline the missionary, to teach him to do everything out of love and care for the other person. And not to only preach the gospel, without caring.
    In my opinion we should be very humble, and in a praying state of mind, always tuned in to the leading of the Holy Spirit, because God is the director of our mission.

    Charitable works for the show, and instead of obeying what the Spirit says, you are right, that is not what Jesus meant.
    Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel and make disciples, He did not say in that line the HOW, He knew the Holy Spirit would come, and He would lead us. So if He wants us to start a mission with orphanages, we should do that, and not say, Jesus did not do charity works, it is unbiblical, and so being disobedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    To go on with Rees Howell. He was a missinonary in Africa, and during the Spanish influenza, the christians were living in campsites, and the flu did not enter the camps miraculously. Up to that point only women would react to the gospel, but after that miracle, men would come in the christian campsites, and many became christians. So sometimes God does first a miracle, and then the repentance comes.
    Leave room for God to work, He does that in many ways, and to each of us differently.

    Stating that this and that is unbiblical fixes things down, leaves no room for the Spirit to work in different ways.
    That’s why I also think writing programs, making structures work against the free flowing of the Spirit.
    I hope I have clarified a little what I meant.

    P.S. I noticed that you are against luke warm christians. I have trouble with the legalists. So I now metion the why of my post. Because you say different things to different people. Do not tell a legalist to show works, working is all he knows, he has to find living out of faith yet.
    And a lukewarm person who says he has faith, but does not work, you do not have to tell him about faith, but about works. (or maybe about faith as yet: does he really know what Christ’s sacrifice for his sins meant, he would not stay the same if he really did know).
    So then it seems as if you are at opposite sides of the table.
    The carefull approach helps, being subtle.
    I try to do that myself. Because in the end we all agree that in Christ alone are we saved

  55. poohpity says:

    dmg,
    Gee if showing care is not a result of our convictions then someone should have stopped Mother Theresa from the charity work in India in the name of Jesus. Was it not James that said, “Faith without works is dead”. She along with other Sisters of Charity provided a place for those who were dumped in the streets to die, a place to die with dignity and care. I did see the that in those works that the Gospel was preached without words. Were those acts of kindness done in secret? I would think that they were done to bring light to those that were dying and to a country with no heart for those that were terminally ill. Without charitable works those churches that were started were just groups of people, self contained, not God contained.

  56. daisymarygoldr says:

    foreverblessed, yes, your further clarification has certainly helped. Regarding Jesus doing charity works and missions, forverblessed I had already replied to your comment on “Getting Buddy’s Trust”…it did not get posted and it is wise to let it be. Jesus His disciples and Paul the Apostle did heal and do miraculous works. No where the scriptures mention that Jesus or His followers sat at the temple gates to collect money for charity.

    I went back to read my comment on “abiblical words” and it certainly did not mention “missionary work”. I have good missionary friends here who have sacrificed their lives to take the gospel to different continents and my only brother is passionately sharing Christ with people in Africa despite his lack of knowledge about their culture and the language… and almost half of the members of my biological family are missionaries… I have shared enough about them on this site… it will be not be modest of me to repeat those details and blow my own horns….and on second thoughts I think I am blowing my own horns:) So, missionaries are always at the top of my prayer list and I have never said anything to belittle their work for the Lord.

    Do I have to be a missionary, pastor or a minister to fulfill the commission of Christ? No, we are all ambassadors for Christ and are called to carry out His command to preach the gospel, wherever we are placed in society. And if we share the gospel which one is the priority (1 Cor 15:3): distributing physical food or giving spiritual food for the salvation of souls? Man does not live by bread alone and what can we give in exchange of our souls?

    Salvation of souls cannot be bought through the physical riches of this world but through the incomparable riches of the grace and kindness of Jesus Christ. Those who have been born-again through the gospel of Christ experience a transformation of the heart by God’s Spirit towards caring for the worst sinners—because we now that we are ourselves the worst of sinners.

    All other kinds of social and humanitarian work of serving the poor are secondary. One of the disciples of Jesus—Judas was concerned for the poor but ultimately he betrayed the Son of God. Jesus said “You will always have the poor among you”. God is certainly concerned for the poor, but His purpose for the body of Christ right now is not to distribute material wealth but to make disciples for Him.

    Yes balance is always a must. We cannot ask others to accept Christ while asking them to stay hungry, naked, homeless and sick. To show compassion and serve the poor is not a prescription … but the description of a Christian. However, if you insist we should use charitable works as a bait to win souls for Christ, then my experience only tells me that we will be terribly disappointed when we will stand someday in front of Jesus-The Judge.

  57. daisymarygoldr says:

    forverblessed, I am not against lukewarm Christians… and I don’t claim myself to be a legalist… unless you heard me emphasizing on circumcision, keeping the Sabbath or even the Laws of Moses.

    Jesus… is against lukewarm Christians and Jesus hated legalists who took pride in keeping a squeaky clean righteous image and giving alms to the poor. He told His disciples that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, their righteousness should exceed the righteousness of legalists.

    The law of love which I follow in Christ applies to the heart… i.e. circumcision of the heart to avoid adultery and murder due to impure thoughts. The law of giving according to Jesus extends beyond normal giving: if I have 2 coats, I should give one away to the needy person … if my enemy grabs my coat I should let him have my shirt too…and if I really want to serve the poor, then Jesus tells me to sell all, give it away to the poor and follow Him. Tough call, isn’t it?

    The point is: no one is good except God. The best of our good works are but like filthy rags in the sight of God… because even our very best good intentions to keep the law and care for the poor… are filled with ulterior motives that are tainted with pride, greed and selfishness. Hence it is not by our own efforts but it is God alone who is doing every good work—both righteous and charitable works… in and through us who are in Christ.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ not only enables us to care for the poor, it also helps us to avoid sinful lifestyles that lead to poverty of the soul. Whether it is good works of righteousness or good works of charity, as a Christian I am convinced to live—in word and deed.

  58. bubbles says:

    In the book of Revelation, the Lord rebukes the Ladoiceans (sp??) for their luke warm heart. It was repulsive to Him.

    Learned men have said that this church is symbolic for the time period we live in now. . . but, what about each of us?? Shouldn’t this church be a healthy jolt to remind us about being luke warm? Being complacent about the things of the Lord isn’t right. Doesn’t this church convict each of us to be careful to NOT be like they were? Jesus loves us, but not sinful attitudes.

    When we do good things outwardly, shouldn’t our minds and hearts be on the Lord, and not on what we are doing?

    James reminds us faith without works is dead. We should do things to honor our Lord. So, if we give someone money, food, clothes, a cup of coffee, or even a bag lunch (Thanks Deb, for your email :) ) we should do it so the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing. . .We’re not to do things to gain attention, but to honor Jesus. But then, when we do kind things for others, it does make us happy, because we have pleased Jesus, and helped another–even when we are trying to get our own selves out of the way. We are so imperfect!

    The Lord allows rain to fall on the just and unjust. So, it seems to me, that when we share/give to others, we need to let the Lord take care of that. . . the Lord needs to be the focus of our acts, and not the people. A former boss at my Christian school said we should do good things out of love for the Lord, and not out of love of others. If we are doing works only out of love for people, we would become discouraged. We need to keep our eyes on Jesus. We shouldn’t get so caught up in doing works that our focus is lost on who really matters.

    Hope this wasn’t rambiling or going in circles. Didn’t mean to take up so much space. :-(

  59. dependent says:

    Coming late to the party… Thanks Mart for bringing up this topic. Reminds me of some research I did during the heyday of organizations like Moral Majority, Christian Coalition, etc.

    Although it is now a bit dated, I remember a pretty good book that offered a fairly balanced chronicle of the often unseemly relationship between U.S. politics and religion.

    William Martin wrote the book (much more useful than the accompanying PBS series):
    With God on Our Side: The Rise of the Religious Right in America

    Take-away for me was that both institutions (and their prominent figures) have a long and checkered history of manipulating one another and consequently getting “bit by the hands that fed them”–and still seem to be repeating the same mistakes.

    I’ll echo the word’s of Martin Luther: “I’d rather be ruled by a competent Turk than an incompetent Christian.”

  60. foreverblessed says:

    But here we had a discussion, DMG, I was not meaning that you are a legalist, I meant it in the general sense. You have strong convictions though. And about some I have my doubts, as of the one of charity. But that does not matter.
    Yo have a will to follow Christ, and so have I. We can encourage one another.
    And I wanted to ask you about the nazarene vow. For sure some have misunderstood what you meant.
    I think you were saying you took the vow in a spiritual sense: you are totally loyal to Christ, no other god you have beside Him.
    Maybe you can clarify it again.
    Because as I read it, this means all of us who have given our life to Jesus have done that, made the nazarene vow in the spiritual meaning of the word, not the literal meaning.
    The literal meaning would be that you do not cut your hear, and do not drink alcohol.

    Like as we live in faith in Christ Jesus, we live in the spirit of the meaning of the 4th commandment, we rest of our own works: the life we live is in Christ, so the works we do, are His works.

  61. foreverblessed says:

    I post here, because on the present topic, being misunderstood you cannot login. Why is that?

  62. daisymarygoldr says:

    foreverblessed, hope your migraine is getting better… please do keep yourself well hydrated. Agree we should encourage one another. Also about charity and earlier info on Rees Howell, I’m thinking we are on the “same side” i.e. if the book is about miraculous prevention of flu that led men and women to Christ. That is what the Great Commission is all about.

    Jesus sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. This was exactly how the church in countries where people worshipped thousands of gods, was able to witness Jesus Christ. It was through supernatural healing non-Christian people were convinced to believe that Jesus is indeed the true and living God and there is none other. Healing and charity are 2 entirely different works.

    Yes, you are right about the Nazarite vow in the spiritual sense. It is not some ceremonial or supernatural experience but simply a willful decision made consciously with understanding… to devote myself completely to love God above all… to stand for His truth and come what may nothing can separate me from the love of God… When God completely fills our hearts, His presence keeps us pure and holy. I am not striving to be holy and perfect… as you said, that is the work of the Holy Spirit.

    My flesh is sinful and my human heart is only capable of evil. So, when I sin, I take the blame but when the Holy Spirit enables me to obey God and not sin, I don’t take credit for it to feel proud as though it was my accomplishment. All the credit and all glory go to God… because we know that no one is good except God. Hence, whatever the works, healing, charity and righteous works, we do not boast or take credit for what we cannot do in our strength. “for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in us to work for His good pleasure” Phil 2:13. Hope that helped to clear the misunderstanding:)…

    I also agree with your idea to leave alone “legalist”… personally I’m not aware of words like “legalism” mentioned in the Bible It is sad though, that the 2 most misunderstood character of God are “law” and “Grace” also the words “faith” and “works”. Those Jews who religiously held on to a twisted understanding of works of law missed the first coming of the Messiah. Similarly, I’m afraid those of us who are convinced about a wrong understanding of faith and grace will miss His 2nd coming when the church will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air … but when we pray and ask God for wisdom, the Holy Spirit is able to teach us all the deep and spiritual truths in the Word of God.

  63. felixery says:

    daisymarygoldr, you are right. The word “legalism” is not in the bible. But the dictionary definition of “legalism” is “strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, esp. to the letter rather than the spirit.” Jesus said “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-40)

    In that verse, Jesus says that the greatest commandment is to love God and the people around you” AND! “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” The word used there for “hang” is the Hebrew word “Kremannumi” which means to be suspended! So Jesus is saying here that the law suspends on love!!!! So that means that if you have no love, the law is useless!!!

    This is great news, but there is a big danger of people saying that if the law “doesn’t count” anymore then we can just do whatever we want.
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” (Mathew 5:17).

  64. felixery says:

    (continued)
    we need to understand that God (the highest, most powerful, unending being in the universe) LOVES US! To the point of DYING for us! Just the thought of that makes me want to cry! I am are so unworthy! Law or no law! I have no right to be alive and filthying up this amazing perfect universe that he created, and there is nothing that I can do to change that! whatever I do and however I live, everyone is going to one day, somehow break Gods heart by doing things that he did not create us for (sin). The only reason that we are alive is because he loves us unconditionally. God gave Moses the 10 commandments to show the people on this earth what the things are that break his heart and I truly believe that if you can do things that u know break Gods heart and not feel bad about it, you don’t know God! and you are not really saved!

    If this above statement makes you feel condemned, realize that you don’t have to be :) God loves you unconditionally and all that he wants for you is to love him back!

Leave a Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.