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What Unites and Divides Us?

Sometimes I wonder what people who don’t believe in Christ must think when they see how many different denominations show up on the church page of the newspaper.

Best case might be, “Wow, looks like a fight, maybe I ought to see what their issues are.”

Worst case might be that they stay away thinking, “Don’t want to get in the middle of that slugfest.” Or, “They say they’re about love and goodness, but sure looks like a lot of bad blood to me.”

The oneness of his Family was a concern of our Lord just before he allowed himself to be subjected to the Roman Empire’s most cruel torture and execution (John 17:19-23).

But as we’ve acknowledged together in the past, some division is necessary. Even though the Apostle Paul confronted people in Corinth about the kind of taking sides that distracted from their shared mission and identity (1Cor 3:1-9), he also indicated throughout the same letter that there are issues that need to be divided over— to honor what God has clearly revealed (i.e. 1Cor 5; 11:18-19).

In the 11th chapter he again takes up the same theme of unnecessary roughness while sharing the “table” of those elements that represent the body and blood of Christ (1Cor 11:18-19).

I think I understand the rudeness, self-centeredness, and bull-headedness that could create sacrilege in those moments and places that deserve honor, reflection, and all due gratitude. I see the opposite of all of that childish junk– and more– lingering in me– let alone in anyone else.

What I’m wondering about now, is how many additional divisions happen around theological arguments that take both sides of a healthy disagreement beyond what is written in Scripture… where we start getting ambushed by our own pride.

For example. in the historic Armenian-Calvinist controversy that continues to fuel an ongoing civil war, both sides have Scripture which, when put together, reflect the mystery of how much God actually controls and determines while at the same time giving us a degree of freedom. The discussion becomes toxic not by acknowledging what the Scriptures clear say, and not by admitting that there is a lot that God has not told us, but with the rough-house presumption of thinking that any of us have the ability to flesh out a logic and consistent philosophy that enables us read between the lines of Scripture and to be able to fill in the gaps of what God has not told us. Seems to me that, even if we take Isa 55:8-9 out of context– it’s still true that, in unthinkable and inexpressible ways, God’s ways are different than our ways and his thoughts different than our thoughts.

That’s only one example. I wonder how many others there are of turning our backs on one another—while disagreeing about secrets that God has kept to himself (Deut 29:29).

It’s one thing to enjoy and pursue a debate until we find out what we don’t know—and need to trust God for… while respecting one another in the different ways we see it. It’s another to debate until we are saying more than we know— and using that ignorance to justify splitting the Family of the one who died for us– and who is offering to live through us.

So now I’m going to harp again on the same string that we’ve talked about before. Are we uniting around knowledge and wisdom that faithful people, on both sides of the aisle, admit are necessarily what God has revealed? Or are we doing harm over what the Scriptures might probably or possibly be implying?

What unites and divides us, the light… or the darkness?


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80 Responses to “What Unites and Divides Us?”

  1. refump says:

    I think initially our desire is to read God’s word to try understand Him so we can develop a relationship with Him as our Father & giver of life. Our flesh soon steps in & we lock into what “makes the best sense” to us & declare it as “the truth”. Someone else steps forward with another angle or challenge to “our truth” & now we must defend what we believe or the foundation of what we believe could be shaken up which makes us very uncomfortable. We are left with the choice of either consider what the other person has brought to light or we must dig our heels in & defend even harder “our truth” which often leads to not only attacking what the other has said but even subtly attacking or even blatantly attacking the person. And of course we do this in the name of God as the crusaders once did because we are more “spiritual” than they are. We are wiser to remember were we came from & where we are going.
    Gal. 5:22-23, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. & Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

  2. chfranke says:

    The largest division I am aware of is between protestant and Catholic. Maybe if we start there and then move on to other divisions we can see a pattern. Martin Luther protests made sense. They drew a line in the sand and spread light where there was darkness. Even Catholics eventually (after hundreds of years) are coming around to recognize the value of those principles.
    So on top of the pride you mention that propels certain believes beyond their usefulness, there is time…God’s time that eventually smooths the way and makes level the path toward His kingdom.
    So, as paths divide and passions become aroused maybe stepping back from those passions can help us set our pride aside and see the big picture so we can take steps to merge without crashing.

  3. revram says:

    Mart: I am currently preaching through the book of Acts. One outstanding feature of the early chapters is the unity of the church in “heart, soul, and mind.” This was not something they created, or even worked at. It was in answer to Jesus’ prayer in Jn.l7 that the Spirit of God made them one. They could deny it by actions ( Acts 5) but not “undo” it since it was the work of God. The body of Christ is one today, by the work of God’s Spirit, whether we recognize it or not! Christ’s prayer did not go unanswered.
    Randy McKinley

  4. SFDBWV says:

    Luke 12:51 “Suppose ye that i am come to give peace on earth?I tell you nay;but rather division:”

    Verses 52 and 53 go on to say that members of the family and thoes in one house will be divided.

    Seems Jesus knew all along about the passion He would evoke in people and the very nature of people to disagree concerning Him.

    It would be nice if here in the blog we could disagree without the sting of being attacked for what we have said or even for what we didn’t mean to say. Most people here have the curteousy to be able to show tenderness and love as they disagree. But there are some who are cold and loveless and that will always bring about the cancer of anger.

    This blog can be a real test of patience. I am still developing and ask all to be patient with me.

    I was reading a story last week in the “Christianity Today” emag about agreeing and disagreeing concerning theology. It was a very difficult article for me to read, as it confused me. But oddly enough the theme was that sooner or later all thoughts take you back to Rome. More specificly the Roman Catholic Church.

    I am not a Catholic, but have often found myself agreeing with their structure. However I cannot get past their habit of praying to Mary. In this I find a wall, I am unable to ignore.

    We all make mistakes, we all err, we all sin. In this we are truly united.

    We who call upon the Lord to fogive us our sins are united in our need for Christ.

    But we all see the world around is differently and for a great many reasons our understanding of scripture differently and so become divided.

    We are divided but united only through the ability and power of Christ. We are held together by His power, not ours. We will forever be dependant on Him.

    Steve

  5. Loretta Beavis says:

    Wow, I hope this post carries on for a long journey; there’s a lot to discuss. So far, I mostly see what divides and unites as whether or not there has been or is a desire for a spiritual awakening in a “participant” and whether or not there is spiritual growth. (Gets back to what I think is my favorite parable of Jesus-the Sower of the Seed).

    I’m attending a 12-step program now, for my own “recovery” and there is unity there that I don’t see in other groups. For myself, it seems that it exists because of something about simple faith in God-not analyzed, criticized, defended or denied…

    Oh, I’m sad for skunky; I’ve had pet skunks. They have poor vision. Mine were like indoor cats and when running around the apartment, would encounter a pillow on the floor, stop and face off like it was an enemy-raise the tail, stamp the floor and stare. (Gee, how did you get a close photo considering it’s a skunk?)

  6. marma says:

    Along the same lines as the Calvinist versus Armenian is the various views of Christ’s Return (Pre or A millenial, Pre-mid-post Trib Rapture).

    In both sets of “views” comes the improper ascribing of what “the other side” believes. I heard this on a radio program the other day and it breaks my heart to hear one side misrepresented. I understand if they have a different view, they should’ve presented that, rather than misrepresenting the other side. It’s unfortunate because the same program often presents eloquently and feelingly of God’s Grace to the edifying of the church.

    To me, it is not helpful for someone to say, yes, it’s okay that there are different views while at the same time still lobbing the pebbles of “they say, we say” back and forth.

    This especially troubles me when those comfortable with the arguments don’t realize how fragile the faith of some is and that those pebbles really sting. There ought to be a way to present the truth in love and be gentler and comforting with those things where clarity will only come in heaven. We see through a glass darkly, and that really is okay! We can live with that and still be strong in our faith.

    There is sooo much we all agree on; the deity of Christ, the atonement, the character of God, to name but a few.

    Let all things be done which edify–build up the Church.

  7. foreverblessed says:

    To go on where marma left :
    There is sooo much we all agree on; the deity of Christ, the atonement, the character of God, to name but a few.
    Yes, that’s what I try to do.
    These things are the basis,the common ground,the rest is not essential.
    So we could have different views, and it would help if we said so. This blog is really helpful in discussing gracefully. Thanks everybody for doing that.
    One note: Lately I went to the funeral of a lady who died of breast cancer, she was a fine lady, child of God, but since a few years she was starting to keep the Sabbath, the 7th day. Everytime I visited her, she would start about that day. It would make me sad, because I just found out, we do not have to keep a day, but keep a spiritual rest.
    Anyway, here she was being buried, and that day: I thought: let’s celebrate that she had accepted Christ!
    Isn’t that great!
    The rest is just a small detail.
    So many things can be done in different ways, leave each other alone, we all do it for our God, God is the Master of each one of us.

  8. poohpity says:

    When I came back on Saturday I wanted to tell a story of what happened at the airport but chose not to because of criticism I may have received. How strange things work out that it was this very topic that it was concerning.

    A young women probably in her late twenties early thirties walked up to me to ask for a cigarette and as I was giving it to her began to tell me about her recent search for enlightenment from her trip to Egypt and all their different gods. I asked her if she found it and she replied it was all just a lie and called to get a flight out of there as soon as possible. She told me about her career in therapies to help people to find spiritual enlightenment. I asked if they ever worked and she said honestly no.

    I then asked her if she had ever read the bible and she said she was raised in a Christian home but the hypocrisy was so prevalent. She then said every time she tried to read the bible she would start to cry.

    I then told her please do not look at the people but only to God and how He came down in the form of man to show us exactly how very much we are loved by God and then proceeded to tell her the rest of the story. I then told her to read the bible and find out for herself the story of His unfailing love for us, all mankind.

    She then said that she came back at just that time to meet me. My son came up at that time to get me as he pulled the car around and walked toward us she told him your mom was here at just the right time to save my life. What she did not know was that my plane which I was very upset about, was two hours late. So God in His infinite timing had a purpose for this young lady.

    There is such a vast amount of bible illiteracy that it does cause problems with interpretations. You can see in those pages how different churches take out their little piece and put it into practice while not understanding the whole book. The bible is the Living Word and it holds so much it has to be continually read and inspired by the Holy Spirit to put the pieces together. It is a life time of wisdom and then some.

    I think a lot of problems come when we put ourselves into the mix with pride of it’s knowledge without the wisdom imparted in the pages.

    I apologize for this post being so long, I know they are to be short and to the point. I just thought it was so coincidental if you believe in that, which I do not, because I was not going to share.

  9. Hisgirl4life says:

    When thinking about unity and divisions among the church, I’m reminded of God’s greatest command in Matt. 22:37-39. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind…and love your neighbor as yourself.” Sadly, Christian Bible study discussions often become personalized Bible bashing matches. Compassionate church leadership is sometimes abandonded to rigid by-laws and policies. Too often, Christians spend more time criticizing and judging others than on the example the world sees within themself. Christ has indeed become the very stumbling block he became as written in the scriptures. The book of James talks candidly about religion that God accepts, “as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” (James 1:27). One of my favorite scriptures passages summarizes this unity issue within the body of Christ. “Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (Col. 3:12-14). Jesus is our light and unity in this world. Our sinful hearts are what divides. Thank you Mart for your powerful words to ponder. May we all humbly bring our hearts before Christ and pray for a heart like His.

  10. rokdude5 says:

    Good job Pooh! I love every word of your post.

    This issue is a struggle for me for since we are made in God’s image why are there so many interpretations? I know that some of my interpretations may be way off point but I still love God and honor and obey His Word.

    Sometimes there are so many interpretations whatever interpretation I choose most likely I’ll be wrong just on the basis of mathematics alone. Yet as I see all of us on the other side of the Pearly Gates someday, I really dont want to say “oops” to myself or to God Himself. So would I be a “Christian derelect” if I pick a particular interpretation but remain open to others?

    This post also reminds of what James said in James 4:1 and I think pride and vanity underlies all that. The only thing that I find that should be a fundamental belief for ALL Christians is that we believe in a Triune God that is also Lord over our lives. That the Father Head sent His Son to die for our sins and was resurrected on the third day. That anyone who believe in that will be saved. End of story or really….beginning of story. RJ

  11. SFDBWV says:

    Great testimony Pooh, way to be there with Christ. Don’t it just feel good?

    There is no other purpose for Christians, put to better use, than to point the way to Christ, to eternal salvation.

    I love you Pooh
    Steve

  12. marma says:

    Once upon a time some churches focused on “clothesline doctrine” concerning our habits, way of dress, etc. I went to a small church like that for a while. With the preponderance of bible study materials and conferences available these days, the average Christian can find more doctrinal issues to discuss and possibly argue about. Politics often enters in, with roots seemingly in morality (a whole other subject for another day/blog).

    We easily sacrifice the law of love to being right about some stand we are taking. I think we miss the obvious–how much MORE love and unity are talked about over other issues.

    If our love for one another identifies us as Christians, then I have to figure the disunity, when it demonstrates a lack of love, comes from somewhere else, and hurts our testimony–such as with the lady mentioned by Poohpity. I’m glad that Pooh didn’t let that stand in her way of presenting the Gospel to that woman.

    I have to examine myself and ask, is what I’m saying the truth, or the truth in love? Because it must be both, not just the one. Love without truth isn’t love, either. Both love and truth characterize the Lord at the cross. The truth that we are sinners in need of a savior, and the love that caused Him to lay down his life for us.

  13. pegramsdell says:

    Steve…..very good post. And Pooh….what can I say. I love you so much. You are a blessing to me. :)
    I love this post and all the responses…even the ones I don’t agree with. Because it’s so honest. It’s reality in the supernatural realm. And sometimes there’s attitude. So what…sometimes I have a bad day too. It happens. We forgive and get on with it and then we are friends again. You gotta love it.

  14. brooklyn54 says:

    It has been my experience that many churches, no matter for what reason they were formed, over time can succumb to a “Church Club” mentality where they exist to maintain their status quo, what is most comfortable to their members. They identify themselves by their “distictives” and seek to “market” themselves (in the paper or the phonebook)based upon them.

    Rather than following the more fluid OT model of a moveable “tabernacle” responsive to the Spirit’s leading (however they discern it), they opt for the fixed “temple” motif and can end up concerned primarily with maintaining a building and programs that have perhaps outlived their usefulness or effectiveness. (We have three or four small struggling churches- from the same denomination!- in our community that refuse to give up their individual “identity” (and buildings)to merge and form a stronger group that could better reach out to the community.

    It certainly requires a strong commitment on the part of church leadership to be willing to seek the Spirit’s leading and follow rather than camp among the comfortable. It seems to me very few “distinctives” are worth separating over (there are some); but in our human nature we are often unable or unwilling to tolerate, let alone allow God to teach us how to love, those that are different from us.

  15. daisymarygoldr says:

    “What unites and divides us?” is a very vital question which should be prayerfully pondered upon by all people everywhere, by all those who identify themselves with the body of Christ. No matter what the denomination and how mega or small your church is, “Unity in the Body” should be the one overriding thought that should occupy all believers who have the mind and Spirit of Christ in them.

    “Divide and rule” policy is an old strategy of the enemy ever since the seed of doubt against God, was planted in the heart of our first parents. But then we cannot keep shifting the blame while allowing ourselves to be deceived into causing divisions by doubting one another’s love in Christ. Disunity among believers is extremely sad; it causes us unbearable pain and also grieves the Spirit of God.

    And thank you Mart, for continuing to play this refrain!

    First of all, it must be understood that the secret in Deut 29:29 which God had kept hidden to Himself throughout the ages and did not reveal to Moses or the other OT Prophets has been revealed to us. Paul refers to the Apostles: Cephas, Apollos and himself as those who were entrusted with the secret things of God (1 Cor 4: 1).

    And the secret is? “Christ” in us the hope of glory! (Col 1:27; Rom16:25- 26; Eph 3:3). Paul says that it was always God’s intention that through the Church this secret–Christ might be revealed to the whole world… not through an individual but through the corporate body of Christ. The Q is: Are we even aware of the implication of this responsibility we have—of Christ dwelling in you and me?

    The implication is this: If Christ dwells in your heart and in mine then both of us will be devoted and loyal to Christ. We will be always ‘one’, in spite of our differences of opinions… for the sake of Christ! Regardless of the differences we will rejoice together in preaching Christ! The preaching of the Cross was exactly what Paul saw as the basis of unity (Phil 1), when he referred to those who were jealous and enviously competing with him to be in the spotlight.

  16. daisymarygoldr says:

    Speaking of divisions… True, 1 Cor 11: 18-19 emphasizes the need for differences in the Family of Christ but even such divisions can be unified by the power of the Cross where the Lord prayed “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!”

    This is how we maintain oneness in the love of Christ within the Church and this was that milestone of my spiritual growth that I had mentioned before… and it is for this reason I am eternally grateful to God for everyone in this blog!

    It is only when unbelievers see love and oneness among us, then and only then they will believe that Jesus Christ was sent by God. And it was this common devotion to Christ seen in the preaching of the Cross for which the first century believers remained united to the point of death.

    When we are united in Christ, the Spirit of Christ will then lead us to agreement in His Word, i.e. the Scriptures. It is not the other way around i.e. unity in scriptures will never produce unity in Christ.

    We must bear in mind that Scripture is not a matter of private opinion or interpretation and was never meant for debate. In plain words, no portion of scripture holds one probable implication for one living in Alaska and another possible implication for someone in Australia. Scripture, for followers of Christ has just one purpose… it “is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Tim. 3:16).

    So, when we walk in the light of God’s Word where is the darkness? As far as I am concerned, nothing that God wants us to know is hidden and secret anymore. And what is the only thing we need to know?

    Paul was determined not to know anything except Jesus Christ and Him crucified! This secret of God’s will to ultimately unite all things in Christ and revealed only to us is being accomplished by the unifying power of the Cross!

  17. SFDBWV says:

    Read a story yesterday in the “news” about a “crack” in the African continent that may someday become an ocean.

    I get a lot of laughs from reading the “news” on the internet. Scientists have for many years believed that the Rift Valley in Africa would continue to spread apart the continent untill ocean water filled it in to “create a new ocean.

    Seems there is nothing new about this story, new only to the author of the news story.

    Isn’t it interesting though, how far apart we as Christians have become in the short 2,000 years of our spiritual rift.

    I read some of this nonsense that “new theologist’s” spew from the many avenues to be heard from and am amazed to even recognize Christ in the doctrine they preach. It would seem an ocean already exists.

    When the Christ speaks to the 7 churches in Revelation, He is and isn’t speaking to 1 single church.

    Why didn’t He speak to the “Church”?

    Could it be because from the beginning He new there would be division. In speaking to all who are the 1 Church, He is able to explain to us what it is we are doing right and wrong. He does so by speaking to the divisions in us.

    There is and has been greater students than I, that have spent their lifetimes researching the messages and meanings found in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation. The mystery of the seven stars, the seven golden candlesticks, the seven angels of the seven churches.

    United in Christ, but divided by being flawed humans.

    Steve

  18. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Very interesting subject.
    Most division in the church is caused by internal politics and personality.
    There are great examples in the protestant churches where one or two people have, through the Holy Spirit, caused massive revivals. Here in Cornwall we have hundreds of metodists chapels that were created by a massive revival in a past age. Over the years these chapels sub divided into Higher / Lower churches etc. In my village of Porthleven we have four different chapels, only one of which still functions as a church. Years ago they used to parade around the town on the St Peters tide festival, They were so divided by their petty doctrines that they each held a parade on differnt days of the week. The Church England were different again. Today, mainly due to the lack of Church going christians, all denominations parade on the same day and behind a united banner.
    Perhaps if the old chapels had been united there would be more church goers today.
    Again when Henry Vlll seperated from Rome it was all due to politics and power. That division changed the course of history and set England on a different road to the rest of Europe. Some divisions are of God and shape our lives for good. Barnabas was Pauls greatest supporter when he met with the young church in Jerusalem, but many years later they had an argument over the loyalty of a co worker and never met again.
    A few years ago we had speaker in our little chapel who told us to strive after the truth in God’s word and explained there are absolute truths that have no Interpretation, such as, He gave His only Son that all may be saved, and others, such as, Keeping the Sabbath, that are debatable. Jesus himself was Criticised for not keeping it. We must unite behind the banner of absolute truth and understand with love the minor differences we all have. Truth, Tollerance, understanding and Love should be written in our hearts.

  19. carlj says:

    I wonder what it is that causes people to as they say “major on the minors”. I have seen people agree on Christ and Him Crucified and then seen the same people needing to persuade the same people who are in agreement with them regarding this essential to embrace their particular church structure or church worship. It is as though people feel safer when others are 100% aligned with them and tolerating any other ideas is difficult. Not getting bogged down in the non-essentials seems to be the key. It is like when Paul said in Phillipians 1:18 the important thing is that Christ is preached.

  20. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Carj, I will go on:
    The very start with the 120, praying together in one accord in the city of Jerusalem, commanded by Christ to wait there for the Holy Spirit to come, maybe that was the initial unity.
    But in practice these people still had to learn to live that unity in all the differences that were to come, with all the new converts coming in.
    The Jewish christians still kept the Sabbath, the 7th day, and they kept all the festivals of Leviticus 23.
    The christians from gentile origen outside Israel did not keep these days, neither were they circumsized, so there were differences in physical matters.
    Paul wrote about that: some keep this day, some another, some do not keep a day at all. Romans 14:5-6.
    Romans 14 is a very good chapter on how to deal with differences in practical matters.
    V16-19
    Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
    19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.

    Maybe we can have that total unity again, when praying together in total humbleness, and spiritual unity: Jesus Christ and Him crucified, or the mystery that is in Christ, which Daisy explained.

  21. austipatmar says:

    Mart – I appreciate the way you take a reader through the steps of analysis when reading through one of your articles. It’s obvious that you put a lot of thought into them & I also appreciate the way that you do not end your articles with a summation telling what conclusion we should end with; instead, you end in such a way that the reader is forced to think through the issue for themselves.

    In this particular article I think you’ve “hit the nail on the head”. So much truth in such a small space. If only we would all read, think, evaluate & then adjust our lives according to what God’s WORD actually says & not what we think it says or what our denomination tells us it says.

    Thank you for pointing to truth & challenging us.

  22. Fred Loges says:

    I wonder how many unregenerate are asking? What divides us is tradition and poor understanding of the Bible which leads to more human input than biblical principles. The Reformation has been over a long time.

  23. holytea says:

    I was a lifelong Episcopalian and believe firmly that many of that faith will rise up in second coming and be in heaven. Fate moved me to purchase a home in a rural area and I did not know that my neighbors were all Seventh-day Adventist.

    One of my neighbors invited me to church on Saturday and that was a new idea for me. The pastor preached a great sermon. One thing that struck me was the amount of time he had us turning from passage to passage in the Bible. Most of my experience at the Episcopal church was that the Gospel was read and then a sermon was presented around the passage.

    I was invited to potluck dinner. Many people recognized I was knew and welcomed me to their church. I felt something was definitely different that very first day with the Adventists.

    I know believe that I did not have a deep relationship with Jesus. Faith today means spending time in the Word daily and not just once a week.

    A member took me through the 26 Bible Studies that contain the principles of Adventist faith. I was then baptized and feel that I am walking with Christ daily now. I admit I was a carnal Christian in the past and had both feet planted in the world and material things. Now I believe my life is daily growing more and more like Christ. It feels great every week when Friday sundown comes and Christ welcomes the flock into Sabbath rest. It is great to shut off the world and focus on Jesus. God Bless Everyone.

    Danielle Parsons

  24. hopein1 says:

    Getting back to the basics:

    Division: It started from the beginning-you know the story!

    Unity: It started with Jesus-you know the story!

    We just need to realize, all human beings (including me) are “sinners”, and there is only “One Way to Heaven”-you know the story.

    This was and is God’s plan and that’s the way it is today. And not all people will be saved, only we don’t know exactly who they shall be, and we shouldn’t care about the “who”, and only be concerned about our “commission”, the spreading of His Word as believers in Jesus the Christ, the only begotten son of God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Remember, God’s Word does not go void, no matter what the subject or the discussion concerning the Bible is about. After robust discussions of differing viewpoints on bible interpretations, Christians do need to continue to greet each other with the “Love of Christ Jesus”, even with those we see as non-believers. God is working in all of our lives, being the Sovereign God He was, is, and shall be. God Bless and Praise the Lord! And that’s the end of my story.

  25. xrgarza says:

    poohpity,

    I loved your testimony, Praise God!

    You have all heard me say this before when I don’t understand a spiritual principle I bring it down to the natural and visa-versa. I believe that I can be most effective when I have more of a sound understanding of what I’m dealing with.

    Yes there are many denominations within the Christian church. But I believe that we are still family.

    I have three brothers and a sister we live in different cities, have different careers, we enjoy different types of clothes, friends, foods, we raise our children differently. But I can still go to their home and enjoy a meal that I would not normally prepare at my home and enjoy the fellowship.

    Why, because we have the one common bond we have the same parents. Similarly, Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, we all do things a little different but we have the same parent.

    We should all enjoy the fellowship.

    Xavier

  26. worstofall says:

    Dear All,
    United we stand,divided we fall. It is so encouraging to see all of us united on the need for unity. As you all have brought out the point so rightly that unless we focus on Jesus who unites us, we’ll focus on our differences(umpteen to be named) and never be united.
    As Hebrews exhorts us, let us fix our eyes on Him and encourage others who chose to differ with us to do the same so that the world will know that Jesus is the Son of God.

  27. poohpity says:

    hopein1, I hope it is the continuing story. lol.

    I really and truly believe that the division comes from pride and arrogance of the so called believers. When one gets their feeling hurt because things just do not go the way they would like rather than take the energy to pray and ask for direction they leave and start their own. Satan likes nothing better than to separate but God in His infinite wisdom tells us that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.

    I also believe that many do not have the fruit of patience and waiting on the Lord to do His work and they start to rush around and confuse things so it goes their way.

    Like many have stated we all have one thing that unites us and that is our belief in Christ the God/Man. Some even have a hard time with that alone. It is a matter of the wheat and tares thing.

    Can you imagine if we were about the the missions that were given us we would not have time to divide. This is not about the church denomination it is about each person and their individual relationship with God. Each person, who truly in their own heart, worships the God of all creation it can not be contained in a building or denomination.

    God, one day will separate those who are truly His that alone would scare me. Am I one who will be cast into the lake of fire or will I be gathered into His arms and be told, “well done good and faithful servant”.

  28. hidetanner says:

    This is the first topic that has motivated me to post a comment. This is partially because I have recently moved and have been searching for a new church to attend and partially due to the new movement that has seemingly taken over all churches (The Purpose Driven Church movement). It appears to me that the things that unite us have been totally adopted by the PDC’s, things like: contemporary music, contemporary sermons, being on TV and or the radio. Whereas anything that could be taken as negative by anyone are being avoided altogether. This troubles me as the bible is very clear in what it says on controversial subjects. So to stay on the subject, it appears to me that the reason for all the denominations (what unites and divides us) is power and money. With just one church and one set of people in power, all the money goes to them and all the final decisions are made by them. Now with the PDC it appears that there are many denominations but in reality they have all been “unified”. As for me, I know that the bible tells me to be set apart from the world not conformed to it, so I am staying independent even if it means that I have no church home.

  29. Thomas Lamb says:

    I believe that denominations are brought about by believers trying to prove a point using a few verses here and there in the Bible. If everyone would look at the broad view of what the Bible says, I believe that we could come closer to agreeing on God’s Plan and enjoy worshiping together instead of competing
    between denominations. I personally believe that all Christian churches should only have on the sign above the door, Christian Church. Denomination never unites God’s people. It only divides them.

  30. RobertC says:

    Regarding current calls for unity in place of denominationalism, there is a danger of swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I know folks who smugly call denominations “abominations,” and think they should be abolished. And others seem careless of the issues involved to the point where they simply shrug and say, with the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz, “People do go both ways.” (I’m afraid I’ve seen a little too much of this in RBC in recent years.)

    It is possible to be gracious and humble, and still hold to a clear doctrinal position. A “unity” that reduces the meaning for Scripture to a matter of opinion leaves us with theological confusion. Sound hermeneutical principles need to be applied. The Word of God has many applications, but it can have only one correct meaning.

    A proposed unity that seeks to include everyone is a dangerous thing. It will more than likely be a unity based on error. We have a couple of examples in history: the community that built the tower of Babel (Gen. 11:1-9), and the monolithic Church of Rome in the Middle Ages! I believe God has used denominational divisions to clarify and protect the truths of His Word.

    Individual fellowship with other believers with whom we may differ on certain particulars of doctrine is not only possible, but it is very worthwhile. And there may be situations where churches of different denominational stripes can cooperate on particular projects. But if we are talking of an absolute amalgamation or assimilation, that usually requires reducing doctrines and policies to some kind of mushy lowest common denominator, and it is wrong.

  31. jesusdisciple57 says:

    Scripture says we’re not supposed to argue. Discuss, yes, but argue? No. Scripture also says “Faith, Hope, Love, these three. But the greatest of these is… Faith? No Hope? No Love? YES! All churches will differ on, what should be, minor issues. But, if you are a TRUE Christian, you will love each other. I heard a fictional story once, about a man who was trying to find a good church to go to. He went into one church, sat at the back, and looked out over about 100 church members in the congregation. He asked God to show him the TRUE and faithful Christians. He looked up and saw five columns of light over five people. That story has stuck with me all these years. But does that mean we only love those five people? Jesus didn’t say just to love his disciples. He said to love everyone, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists (of which I was one) and all other religions and cults. I am only a sinner saved by His grace. Nothing more. John

  32. Ron Ben Yaakov says:

    Shalom. This is my first time on this blog. None of us have to guess that this subject is indeed a touchy subject; nevertheless, how can we communicate our honest feelings to our brother and sisters if we don’t have the freedom to express our disappointments with the operations taking place within the walls of the modern churches, including Messianic congregations scattered around the world.

    There are some interesting comments on this blog as to why many believe there are so many interpretations and denominations available in our day. Some accuse others of catering to pride. Some say that many don’t spend enough time studying the Word of God. We could go down the list and find familiar “reasons” why the Body of Messiah/Christ is so divided.

    Why is the Church so divided? What I’m about to say is not to try and prove that everyone else on this blog is wrong; everything written in the comments I’ve read are honest and beneficial comments. However, I find missing, one important ingredient that’s clearly taught in God’s Word. Being a believer almost 50 years, I am constantly drawn back to the book of Acts where it mentions about a community of believers, made up of approximately three thousand Jews from different parts of the world (Acts 2:5). After these Jews were born again, it says they faithfully continued in the apostles’ doctrine (Acts 2:42). This doctrine is referring to what Yeshua/Jesus taught (Matthew 28:20), especially referring to the Gospel, which centered in His death, burial and resurrection.

    As we continue, in Acts 2:44, it says that all of these believers were together and had all things in common. In Acts 2:46, they continued having fellowship; breaking bread from house to house, as well as having fellowship; all of one mind; the fruits of the Holy Spirit manifesting within their midst (Galatians 5:22-23).

    So, what am I trying to say in this brief synopsis? I’m saying, “The modern Church and Messianic congregations are quenching the Holy Spirit; the same Spirit that pricked the hearts of those three thousand Jews on the day of Pentecost/Shavuot; hence, there’s no unity in the Body of Messiah.” The mind-set today is: “We’re right, and they’re not right!” We “ALL” need to get back to the apostles’ doctrine, which is the Doctrine of Jesus the Messiah.

    I know this for sure: When Yeshua sets up His Kingdom here on earth for one-thousand years, His Doctrine will be world wide. There won’t be any denominations – only His Doctrine going forth with power and authority.

    I love you all. Baruch Ha’Shem!

  33. wretch-like-me says:

    Mart:
    Before any of us get too far along in debating the issues, I believe we need to acknowledge one extremely basic premise. “There is none among us who is sinless.”
    We must admit and accept that each of us is flawed and therefore cannot in our best moment ‘see clearly in the mirror dimly lit’.

    How can finite beings expect to understand an infinite God?

    To put it another way, we, who have a beginning and an end, cannot possibly hope to absorb something that has no beginning and no end.

    I hesitate to use the comparison, however, even if we could access the collective existence and knowledge of all humanity from Adam and Eve to the last living human, we still fall pitifully short of infinity.

    REVRAM: Have you considered the possibility that 1st Century churches had the benefit of 1st hand witnesses to Christ? Subsequent generations had only the ‘oral’ histories passed on despite a written text because only the leadership could read the limited copies. With the power of reading and the printing press came diverse interpretation and disagreement. Perhaps the early church(catholic) in their efforts to maintain continuity were well intentioned despite their failure.

    FOREVERBLESSED: I agree. What unifies us is Christ! Beyond that the lines start to blur. I have fellowship with many believers of many different denominations and it is Christ that brings us together as God’s children. “Black & Yellow, Red & White, We are precious in HIS sight.” stands for much more than race.

    POOH: Way to go! Ooooh–RAH!

    DMG,STEVE,BOB AND ESPECIALLY THE NEWCOMERS…
    Your input is very important and needed. Together we have a better chance of interpreting and understanding what none of us can individually.

    Long ago I learned that each of us perceives the world differently. It is due to the complex set of factors in the world we are placed by God. Our parents, gdparents, teachers,heroes,villains, life-experiences, and basic physical senses such as sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell are unique for each of us.

    We form relationships with the world around us based on how we perceive it and all it contains. None of us perceives things exactly the same way (do you see the same color ‘blue’ that I see?). Are any of God’s creations ‘exactly’ the same?

    Where we go wrong is to expect another person to agree ‘totally’ with ALL we perceive as accurate, truth, absolute, or doctrine.

    Put another way, do you agree with everything that others perceive?

    What should unify us is the genuine desire to follow Christ and love each other, accept what we can of others and recognize we are all different in how we perceive things. (Paul’s analogy of the body of Christ says we cannot all function as the same part. We need everyone to function as a whole.)

    Christ accepted us while we were yet sinners. Can we do any less?

    Huggs
    frank
    PS Jim continues his struggle with H1N1. There is little improvement. PRAISE GOD HE IS STILL ALIVE AND HAS A CHANCE. My brother Dave is improving. thanks all for your prayers.

  34. piacenza says:

    I lived in Africa for many years (no, I was not a missionary). On my trips back to the States to visit my parents, I would attend a different church each time. On one of my trips I attended a Baptist church. In one sermon the pastor talked about the importance of witnessing, which was fine until he said, “We as Baptists…” I thought to myself, no, it’s not “We as Baptists” it’s we as Christians; we are not reaching out to people for a particular denomination, we’re reaching out to them for Jesus.
    When I returned to Africa, I met an elderly African pastor who told me, “I thank God for all the different denominations. The people the Baptists can’t reach, the Methodists can; the ones the Methodists can’t reach, the Presbyterians can, etc.”
    Well, I thank God for this African pastor who had the right attitude. It’s not denominations that divide, it’s denominationalism that divides us. We let side issues — like baptism, for instance — divide us, rather than focusing on what, or rather, Who, unites us.
    And that makes the devil laugh all the way to hell.

  35. Deborah7 says:

    I think the body of Christ needs to remember…not to debate but to meditate on what God says.The body of Christ needs to read the word,ask God to give us a spirit of understanding.Take his word just as it is and not try to to read some hidden meaning,direction or even question it.There is only one body,one gospel.So no division.God tells us what not to do.If we abide in him,there should be no division.For God isn’t divided.The Godhead works as one.So should the body of Christ.

  36. firstthingsfirst says:

    In addition about what was commited on 11-3-09: What Unites and Divides Us? firstthingsfirst says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    November 3, 2009 at 5:27 pm
    What Unites and Divides Us?

    1st. off! is that I wwould say to: Sometimes I wonder what people who don’t believe in Christ must think when they see how many different denominations show up on the church page of the newspaper. Is wright on time for certain views, but nevertheles sin is sin by its definition inwhich Mart De Haan statement is correct, people is going to do what they will to whatever, and don’t care about anything else.

    But the scriptures must not be broken.

    Gal.6:1-18.

    Love you all From: Walter.

    Also that as Posted by Mart De Haan
    November 3rd, 2009 goes on to say:

    What I’m wondering about now, is how many additional divisions happen around theological arguments that take both sides of a healthy disagreement beyond what is written in Scripture… where we start getting ambushed by our own pride.

    Proverbs 6:1-“16-19”-35.

    and goes on by asking this question, but I don’t think that he is finished with his conclusion, because of rigtheousness.

    So now I’m going to harp again on the same string that we’ve talked about before. Are we uniting around knowledge and wisdom that faithful people, on both sides of the aisle, admit are necessarily what God has revealed? Or are we doing harm over what the Scriptures might probably or possibly be implying?

    Acts 17:1-“30”-34. esp.vs. 30.

    Love you all Walter

  37. JiL says:

    Greetings to all, from a newbie to blogs!
    It seems to me that denominations serve a useful purpose as long as they agree on the Bible as the final authority for belief and practise, and recognize and cooperate with their brothers and sisters in Christ. The useful purpose is that different emphases and approaches and worship styles appeal to different people, and even the same person at different periods of life.

    But (there’s that nasty word!) the real problem we face in many mainstream churches today is an accomodation to some politically correct viewpoint that is clearly labeled as sin in the Bible. How can (or should) we deal with that?

    Jesus is Lord!

  38. marma says:

    Ron B Y: I couldn’t agree more! The same thing that trips us up as individuals–lack of yieldedness to the Holy Spirit–is the same thing that trips us up in congregations.

    Appreciated your insights.

  39. noelb says:

    Some years ago, a non-Christian friend of mine who was seriously interested in becoming a Christian hit a new obstacle, division in the church, his comment to me was, “Hey Noel, you guys (meaning us Christians) have a great big ship, my religion is like a little boat, but yours is sinking too, so is there any point in my jumping from one sinking boat to a nice, big sinking ship, since both will eventually sink?” I had no answer…

  40. Ron Ben Yaakov says:

    Shalom Marma: Thank you for your expression of appreciation. This is what it’s all about – sharing our hearts with each other. I might add this comment for the benefit of us all: “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” (James 1:5).

    The “wisdom” James is referring to is not a wisdom that is just acquired information but practical insight with spiritual implications – hidden meanings for better words. It has been said that the book of James is a little book of Proverbs. I can see why since King Solomon gave this list of hidden meanings:

    “To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; to receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; to give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion” (Proverbs 1:2-4).

    “When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee; to deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things; who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked; whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths…” (Proverbs 2:10-15).

    “Get wisdom, get understanding; forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee; love her, and she shall keep thee. Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom; and with all thy getting get understanding. Exalt her, and she shall promote thee; she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace; a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee” (Proverbs 4:5-9).

    “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased. If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself; but if thou scornest, thou alone shalt bear it” (Proverbs 9:10-12).

    The Apostle Paul said, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). You who have had the privilege to attend Church History classes will remember that Paul is warning his pupils about the heresy that had permeated that part of the world; namely, Gnosticism. This is why Paul stressed the fact that the true believers in his day needed to study God’s Word wholeheartedly, since many were denying the bodily resurrection, as well as asserting that there is only going to be a spiritual resurrection (similar to the error mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:12-19). It was those who pushed Gnosticism; even today, who say the resurrection was an allegorical even, not a literal event. We who are blood-washed know different, don’t we!?

    Is Gnosticism prevalent today in what is called the Church? Obviously, this is true! We can see why Paul told Timothy: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils…I charge thee therefore before God, and the LORD Yeshua the Messiha/Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His Kingdom; preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE. For THE TIME WILL COME when they will not endure SOUND DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers (i.e., modern day Gnostics), having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the Truth (i.e., God’s Word), and shall be turned unto Fables (i.e., Gnostic philosophical systems; fiction; fairy tales, etc.)” (1 Timothy 4:1; cf. 2 Timothy 4:1-4).

    We are witnessing a Gnostic explosion! Let us, the Body of Messiah seek God’s wisdom, not the wisdom of men which is foolishness to God! (1 Corinthians 3:18-20)

    Along with my love: Blessings to all!

  41. poohpity says:

    noelb, our ship may look like it may be sinking but under the water where none can see (heart) someone is holding our ship afloat to His Glory not our own.

  42. tandgmartin says:

    Mart: Great topic. I love the picture of the dead skunk in the middle of the road. Sometimes that’s what our petty arguments are worth.

  43. PhilBert says:

    I have wrestled with the question of denominationalism since I was old enough to be aware that there were so many ‘brands’ of Christianity. I have read extensively about the reasons for so many denominations and sub-denominations. Over the past fifty years, I have personally sampled a wide range of Christian ‘brand’ names as a member in their churches. Methodist, Baptist, non-denominational and Lutheran, all of them reading and preaching from the same Bible, about the same God and Savior, and,…all, in one way or another, denouncing each other. The unconscionable behavior that I have observed between members of just differing factions of the same denomination has astonished me, and has certainly deeply grieved the Lord. Even recent conduct within a very highly-respected, and world renowned Bible school has deeply shaken my faith in the earthly Church. Quite frankly, if I was an non-believer observing what is generally going on in, and between churches these days, I would run away from from the whole mess as fast as I could. That is a sad commentary on what has become of the ‘family’ that is called upon to draw others to faith Jesus Christ. For my part, I have pretty much withdrawn from church participation as a result of my experiences over the years. My faith in the Triune God and His Word remains strong, however I have found little strength, purpose or true fellowship inside of a church building. I still watch for a group of practicing Christians whose fellowship is more than just a ‘Christian Club,’ but I am losing hope of finding one. I pray for a revival of true Christian love within the Church so that it might shake the divisive nature of denominationalism, and once again become an effective witness for Jesus Christ to this spiritually destitute world. Thanks for the opportunity to unload this personal burden.

  44. daisymarygoldr says:

    I would also like to extend a very welcome to all the newcomers! It is such a delight to read so many good comments that pressed for unity among followers of Christ. To persevere for unity does not mean that we are called to produce unity. By being born-again as His children, God’s Spirit has already produced unity and we are told to simply preserve that unity of the Spirit (Eph 4:3).

    Also, there is just one Body and that body of Christ cannot be divided. This means we should “recognize” God’s Spirit in each other to accept and love one another in order to stand firm for our Family’s unity. Unity comes with maturity. When my siblings and I were children there were many fights. During our growing years, whenever one of us was guilty of something that was threatening to affect the honor of our father’s name and his family, we did not deal with it lightly.

    Although we disagreed on several issues and fought among ourselves, we never bad-mouthed about each other to others outside the family but always looked out for one another… to be protective in a caring manner. And now that we are all grown up and are separated to have families of our own, we still remain bonded in love as one strong family… though each one of us is different in our individual temperament, preferences and tastes.

    It is the same within the Spiritual Family of God. We do look out for one another to see that no one from among us leans towards false doctrines to wander away from faith and that will certainly lead to disagreements. If that causes some to jump the ship and deny their faith, then it is a clear sign that they never belonged to us in the first place. They were there in the church for some other motive to promote their personal agendas and self interests.

    Unity is breached when we fail to understand, that we have been already united in the death of Christ and it is no longer I but Christ… that we belong to God and live for His purpose to establish His Kingdom and that we exist only for His glory.

    And yes, in order to avoid “quenching the Holy Spirit” when blatant sin in the family is addressed it will also cause “hurt” not “harm”. That hurt is for good, it is the wounds of a friend that speaks of their faithful love (Prov 27:6). That should not lead us to turn our backs on one another, to see each other as enemies and hate one another… polarize into parties within the church to gang up against one another or even rebel against the leadership…

    …to slander fellow believers and call them names like Pharisee, self-righteous or superior, abusive churchmen, cruel Christian women…and to indulge in loose talk like “Christians shoot their wounded” (someone please give me scriptural ref for that strange doctrine)…

    It is despicable and so unbecoming for Christians to simmer in a spirit of hatred and unforgiveness towards their own brothers and sisters… such believers who claim to be in the light are still living in darkness (1 Jn 2:9) and when that spirit spills over into this blog… all I do is to pray that people may spiritually “grow up”. Those who are mature in Christ are the ones who attain unity in the Faith (Eph 4:13).

  45. daisymarygoldr says:

    Just like the differences in siblings born to the same set of parents in any biological family, denominations also differ… in flavor… of music or worship style and sometimes there is an emphasis of one doctrine over another… like speaking in tongues or women keeping silence in the church etc. As long as we contend for the same faith, we are all children of the same Heavenly Father.

    In situations when there is a clash in ministry interests, separation occurs and that is not division. That is mutual separation for the better promotion of the Gospel. Divisions that result due to strife and in-fighting among warring factions of a church body is certainly the work of the flesh and is evil. But God works it out for His good!

    For ex. sometimes, when believers remain for 10-30 years in the same place, they tend to grow into spiritual fat cats…to become territorial about “my” church. It is unhealthy… just like saplings trying to grow under the same mother tree. When disagreement causes such believers to disperse out of the church, it is good that they are disseminated into other parts of the community to start giving out whatever they have been gaining for all those years!

    Noelb, my answer to your friend is: “You are right, you are in a little boat which will eventually sink. Yes, I am in a great big ship but no, it will not sink because Jesus Christ is the Captain of my Ship. Once when the whole world had drowned, He faithfully saved a big ship that had eight souls who had trusted Him with their lives. So, do think again about the point to jump into the eternal security of this big ship. The choice is yours. Jesus loves you too and wants you to come and be safe in this big ship. Don’t worry it will never sink. Last time the ship stayed afloat, but this time even before trouble strikes, Jesus who pilots this spaceship will fly it far away into the Heavens!”

    Noelb, please do not wring your hands hopelessly to think that you are in control of the Church. It is His Church and it is He who is building it according to His pattern and purpose. “Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you.”1 Peter 3:15

  46. BobbiLee says:

    Hi all,

    My computer fried, so am on another computer when I can arrange it. Anyway, I do love this subject because really the answers are pretty basic after all. I know of churches that “split” because they differed in what color to paint the sanctuary.

    There are basic concepts of the faith of Christianity that remain true in any circumstance: the virgin birth for instance, or the diety of Christ, His blood atonement etc. All the other “doctrines”, if they don’t deal with our salvation, are irrelevant. When one puts the whole Bible together certain things stand out as being true. Cut and paste theology never works.

    BTW, there are “rules” of Bible interpretation like there are rules for most other things. Many folks confuse an interpretation and an application for instance. When looking at any passage there is only ONE interpretation. There might be various applications and lessons, but only one interpretation. Also, as far as Armenianism and Calvinism goes, the Bible teaches both, and in the same passage at that!

    As someone above mentioned Paul determined to “teach Christ and him crucified….”. Amen

  47. Becky M says:

    Mart, you said: Worst case might be that they stay away thinking, “Don’t want to get in the middle of that slugfest.” Or, “They say they’re about love and goodness, but sure looks like a lot of bad blood to me.”

    I haven’t read this whole thread yet but I feel I need to address what you said here.

    Right in our own country there are cultish churches that would prey on people that feel this way if they find out how they feel and run with it to get them involved with there churches and turn them against all other churches telling them that all the churches other than theirs are false churches. They don’t have the truth and show them from the Bible(maybe their own Bible) how wrong and false all other churches really are. Well, they soak them in, make them feel like nobody loves them like they do and treats them like royalty while they brainwash them. Then they tell them that they need to be baptized in that church before they can be considered one of God’s people, the true church, while God does not listen to all the other churches out there in the world. By the time you are ready for baptism you would have had to go thru many tests(most unrealized by you) and one big test to see if you are ready for baptism. God will not favor you unless you are baptized with them in their beliefs. Then you have to work to continue to be in His favor. This you usually don’t find out untill after you have been baptizied or many years into it and ready to be baptized that they say that if you leave now it would be a shame considering how many years and how much of your life you have already given to God in this only true road to Him. You agree cause it’s true and now you are trapped. Ok, so I don’t think that this is what you had in mind with this thinking about,cause as I said I didn’t read the whole thing. But, I just needed to point out that in my opinion what you stated is not the worse thing that could happen. I’m sorry if it doesn’t fit here but, if it doesn’t could you maybe place it where it would or start another thread about this to give everyone a chance to address it? I would appreciate it very much. I think it is something worth thinking about.

  48. foreverblessed says:

    The point Becky is bringing up is that some denominations think they are the only true ones, and consider the others “so-called christians”.
    The so-called other christians, how are they going to deal with that? Stay loving. Pray they would come to their senses, and change their views?
    I know I have been that way: the only true christians believe in Jesus, and do as He did, keep His everlasting commandments, including the Sabbath, and all the Holy Days. Every christian that kept Christmas was not a real christian. (didn’t they know this was originally a gentile feast?)
    It was quite a thing for me to find out that this literal keeping of day was not what God intended. So here I had to see I was wrong in calling all the others the not real christians. And I will say it here: Sorry that I did not consider you a real christian because you did not keep the 7th day holy.
    Instead I now rejoice that you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour!
    And I am thankful for all those who still lovingly looked at me, and maybe were praying for me to open my eyes, to see the Mystery that is Christ in us, and that we thus have obeyed all the laws of the OT.

  49. SFDBWV says:

    I would like to say how happy it is to see so many dfferent writers share their thoughts. Fresh thinking is, well….refreshing.

    1 Thessalonians 5:11 ” Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

    (Edify: To instruct; esp: to instruct or improve morally or spiritually; enlighten. To build or establish.)

    To edify, as Shakespeare would say “ah, there is the rub”

    I have in past posts laid out a simple basic list of beliefs. Stating that, as long as different denominations agreed with these basics, I had no big issues with their own brand of doctrine. However irratating some might be.

    1.Jesus of Nazareth was born to the Virgin, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
    2.Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God, the promised Messiah.
    3.Jesus of Nazareth was cruxified on the cross, taking all sin upon Himself for the salvation of all mankind. By laying down His life by His own power.
    4.Jesus of Nazareth arose alive from His tomb, by His own power.
    5.Jesus of Nazareth is in fact God.

    The effort of RBC and other ministries is to help us all be comforted and instructed in our spiritual growth. The spirit of this blog is for, we who both read it and share on it, to comfort one another and share how God has effected our lives and how our walk with Christ has not only improved us, but saved us from our own stubborn ways.

    The very nature of many of the topics Mart brings forth are very divisive. Yet by sharing and hearing we may better understand thoes differences and be able to at least tolerate them better. If not change the direction of how we may think along a subject.

    Thank you Mart, thank each and every one of you who take the time to share your thoughts.

    Steve

  50. Mart De Haan says:

    Becky M, you are so right. Those kinds of predators are sheep trappers… and are all too real.

    Steve, thank you for once again expressing so well the spirit of what we are here for.

  51. Hisgirl4life says:

    Dear Noel,

    At times, we all fail to know the words to speak. Jesus Christ does not need any earthly ships at all. He can WALK ON WATER. If the earthly ship we are in begins to sink, He is quite capable of providing of providing life rafts, life vests, nose plugs (for those of us that can’t swim), etc. He is God and nothing is impossible for Him. Or, like Peter, He will simply ask us to, come, get out of the boat, walk on water to Him and follow Him. No boat necessary… :)

  52. Charles P. Pierce says:

    I didn’t read every comment but I agree with Steve 3 back. My main comment is in regard to the original questions. What are people to think about all the different denominations. It seems as if we all place a high value on our opinions instead of the word of God. If the opinion is, I am ok, and you are ok, and everybody is ok, then all world religions must be ok too. The word of God says we have the mind of Christ and we are to judge between right and wrong. Jude tells us to contend for the truth of the word of God. The Southern Baptist’s have a false doctrine regarding salvation [their slogan is “Once saved-Always saved”]that gives a false sense of eternal security that could cause the deceived to go to hell. Will you silence me because I may offend someone on the way to hell? The Assemblies of God supports churches that have a non-Biblical form of government that promotes the Spirit of Jezebel. The Church is divided. Division is from the devil. Unity is from God. The Church needs to unite in Biblical teachings, not our opinions.
    Charles P. Pierce author

  53. poohpity says:

    For those who have pulled away from churches because they are not perfect, I was at one time one of those. I have since realized whatever door I walk into, the church at that time then becomes imperfect, because I am not perfect but I am welcomed in with all of my imperfections. I got my feelings hurt because I had needs that I felt were not being addressed, little did I know that the Lord was teaching me that He and only He wanted to provide for those needs. The Lord also taught me not to expect others to be something He was training me to be.

    Trouble comes when we have expectations of others because no one can ever met those expectations. God has expectations for us and that is to be who He created each of us to be and to function in the capacity He has gifted each one. Usually when we are sitting back and doing so much judging and criticizing of others we are not looking fully at who we are compared to Christ, not each other. At that point we will become very humbled and get on with the work we are given to do which is not being our brothers conscience that is the Holy Spirits job.

  54. jimgroberts says:

    The central theme to the bible is that God desires ONE people, ONE church with ONE head of the church. From the beginnings it has been the work of Satan to split and divide the church – “If the house is divided it WILL fall”. Jesus prayed “make them ONE” knowing that if a little yeast [yeast of the Pharasee] gets into the church it will spread throughout. Men’s desire is to walk by sight [not by faith] so any supernatural event is turned into a ritual or law which is then used to divide the body into denominations.
    The answer to walking by faith and staying united is “He who has an ear hear what the Spirit is saying” Rev. This is SOOOOO important to God and the life of the Church. Listen to God and do His will!!!!
    Our understanding was – is – will be too limited.

  55. wretch-like-me says:

    Hisgirl4life:
    Very well said. Too often we confuse the organization, structure or building for the church. I have witnessed the destruction of ‘man-made’ structures and the rebirth of the ‘God-made’ from the seeds scattered.

    Steve:
    As always, rock-solid. I wonder if you might agree on the addition of scripture to your ‘basic list’? Without scripture would we have a record of Christ?

    To ALL:
    My friend Jim continues to struggle against setbacks. He had a rough night last night and had to be returned to 100% oxygen. Today is heart is racing. More tests in store to determine what to do. PLEASE CONTINUE TO PRAY FOR THE LORD’S WILL.

    Huggs
    frank

  56. poohpity says:

    I think it would be nice if all would realize;

    And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is.

    ~ Eph. 3:18, NLT

    If we could just get a handle on this it would come out in our everyday life to others.

  57. marma says:

    I could so relate to this; it is in our interractions with others that we learn of our own imperfectness and need of Christ (and each other!)

    poohpity says:
    November 5, 2009 at 12:20 pm
    “For those who have pulled away from churches because they are not perfect, I was at one time one of those. I have since realized whatever door I walk into, the church at that time then becomes imperfect, because I am not perfect but I am welcomed in with all of my imperfections. I got my feelings hurt because I had needs that I felt were not being addressed…Trouble comes when we have expectations of others because no one can ever met those expectations…At that point we will become very humbled..”

  58. SFDBWV says:

    Frank, without exception I would totally agree that the Scripture is the only autoritative accounting of Messiah Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.

    I only witheld it because of the fist fight I got in the last time I said it. I do not wish to be a stumbling block to any.

    I continue to pray for Jim, and glad Dave is doing better.

    Steve

  59. SFDBWV says:

    Charles Pierce, Are you the well known sports writer for the Boston Globe?

    If so, could have used your insight on our previous post “From Jeter to Jesus”.

    Either way, I always am pleased to hear the Gospel preached with boldness, tempered only with love. Thank You.

    Steve

  60. daisymarygoldr says:

    Hisgirl4life, good thoughts about walking on water!

    noelb, just wanted to let you know that I’m sure you do know the truth. Please, ignore my unsolicited piece of advice:) Your non-Christian friend is in my prayers…

    Frank, forgot to mention this yesterday that I was really relieved to hear that there is hope for Jim. Today’s update on his health is causing concerns. He is in our prayers…

    foreverblessed, Friday is almost here. Thought I’d remind you to not forget your migraine meds:). I agree about praying for God’s Spirit to open the eyes… for people to see the Mystery that is Christ in us. Endless arguing with those trapped in false doctrines of cultish sects is not the right solution.

    Unity among Christians does not mean that we should agree with false doctrines at the cost of compromising the Truth. Personally, we socialize with some good Mormon friends. I never encourage conversations… for them to present their Jesus to me. All I did was to clearly present the truth that Jesus Christ is God and pray that His Spirit will do the rest.

    The Bible assures us that there is always hope in the saving grace of Christ for those who are yet to know the truth… like the dying thief on the cross and for those who crucified Christ in ignorance like Saul of Tarsus. And today that includes pagans, non-Christians, unbelievers and even those who are trapped in cults.

    However, it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened by the truth—those who have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have then turned away from God… seeing that they have rejected the Son of God… nailing Him to the cross once again and holding Him up to public shame (Heb 6:4-6) and that also includes those of us who willfully sin after having received the knowledge of truth (Heb 10:26-27).

    There is nothing dark and secret about the knowledge of truth as revealed in God’s Word. The wisdom of God and the patient teaching of the Holy Spirit explain the truth so plain and clear to comprehend. Frankly, I don’t think any one of us cannot understand the meaning or the application of God’s Word. We say we do not understand because we do not want to obey!

    As Deborah7, pointed out, there will be unity in the church when we diligently read the Word of God to understand and obediently follow the sound doctrines of our faith in Christ.

  61. foreverblessed says:

    About the Armenian (man has a free will to answer to Gods call) and calvinistic view (God chooses His elect, the rest is lost)
    C.H. Spurgeon, the first mega church pastor in England halfway the 19th century, he is such an inspirational writer. He was a calvinist.
    But he had said, in a public prayer: “God gather Your elect! And then go and elect some more.”
    He went way beyond his creed saying that.
    I like that very much. He could go beyond the doctrine that was laid out in his denomination.
    It would be nice if we could say about most of the issues, the non-essential part to our redemption: this is what I think is meant by the bible, but maybe I am not seeing it totally right, and God’s wisdom goes much deeper than that. (As many already have said: God’s wisdom is unfathomable.)

  62. daisymarygoldr says:

    Was led to think about Ron Ben Yaakov’s comment about Gnostic influence in the Church today… honestly I am no theologian, grew up in the middle of a jungle and never had the privilege to own or read Bible Concordance, Commentaries, and Lexicons… let alone darken the doorsteps of a Seminary! Since first grade, I just owned and read for almost 2 decades… a hard bound maroon cover, no-reference KJV Bible because that was the only version that was available at church. So, I am completely clueless about words like Armenian-Calvinist, Gnosticism etc.

    However, I can readily relate to “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine… and shall be turned to Fables (i.e., Gnostic philosophical systems; fiction; fairy tales, etc.)” (2 Timothy 4:1-4).”

    It is sad, sad because what Paul had warned about is so true and happening right in front of our very eyes. It is sad especially when such deception of false doctrine goes undetected by many within the Church.

    We must not forget, that the one who had betrayed the Messiah was His follower, whose feet Jesus had washed and with whom Jesus had shared His bread.

    Paul is telling the Romans to keep unity and “to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught…For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.”

    How do followers of Christ respond to false doctrine that leads to disunity among the brethren?

    hidetanner, to quit Church and stay independent is not a good idea… fellowship is the core principle of Christian living. Jesus exposed Judas. Paul charged young Timothy “(in the light of) His coming and His kingdom: Herald and preach the Word! Keep your sense of urgency … to show people in what way their lives are wrong. And convince them, rebuking and correcting, warning and urging and encouraging them, being unflagging and inexhaustible in patience and teaching.”

    And those of you out there, who are entrusted with overseeing the Church, be reminded of your God-ordained responsibility to bring the flock into unity with the sound doctrines of the Faith. Failure to do so will cause disunity which will then clog up the spiritual pipeline which flows down from Heaven (Ps 133).

    To abide in Christ is just half the truth. It is important that Christ also abides in us. The power of God’s Holy Spirit cannot flow in the Church as long as we are in division.

    And that is what Jesus prayed “That they all may be one…I in them and You in Me, in order that they may become one and perfectly united”! Just my thoughts…

  63. pegramsdell says:

    The bible tells us to be sanctified (set apart) from the world. (There’s your division right there). He didn’t come to bring peace, but division. So we need to make our line in the sand and stay on the Lord’s side. The world does not understand us and we don’t understand the world anymore. The Spirit draws the world to us and we love them, but we are not one of them. We live in the world, but we do not love the things of the world. We need to shine before all men, so they want to know The Lord.

  64. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks DMG for reminding, you really have a heart for us here!
    For Jim,keep praying. And how are the parents of Phpatato doing?
    Today I was with Benedictan nuns. Have an exposition in an old peoples home of all sorts of paintings. We also do this to encourage the old people to do something creative themselves. There is also a part of the home where the nuns live, and I was there today near there sitting room, with more paintings, they invited me in. Such lively eyes, so full of love. They are all older the 80, but so happy! Really impressed by that. They go to church every morning, and in the afternoon, many of them study the bible together, but not in a phariseic way(how do you spell that)at all.
    (They offered me coffee, with a cooky, just a detail)
    Such loveliness.
    Could we be together as old people in a old peoples home and be such a lovely scent of Christ?

  65. daisymarygoldr says:

    Yes, foreverblessed, when we live together it is good and pleasant like the precious oil that anointed the head of Aaron …it emanates an aroma that smells of myrrh, cinnamon, cane, cassia all mixed in olive oil (Exo 30:22-25)!

    However, “For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.” 2 Cor 2: 14-15

    You and I and all those who obey God’s truth do admire the loveliness of nuns. Everyone does not… many of those beautiful, virtuous souls are desecrated by vile persons who reject God’s truth

  66. jjhis says:

    Praise God for in Christ Jesus we are united!
    Ron Ben Yaakov, Amen.
    Steve, How about for 7. Jesus is coming back!
    While it may be controversial to some believers as to how, the fact that He is coming back should not be.
    “May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.” Romans 15:5-7 (ESV)

  67. poohpity says:

    Please left up the families of the military personal that were killed or wounded in the horrible problem at Fort Hood this afternoon.

  68. SFDBWV says:

    jjhis, Christ is returning and we will be returning with him.

    I know little else that is so diverse as my native country, the USA. Filled with people who are as different as night and day. Who speak many languages, have many different dreams, who have many different religious ideals. Will get fist fighting angry over political dofferences, but….

    Come together as a people, every time disaster strikes, and pull together to keep our freedoms.

    I think we as Christians are very similar, we disagree, we argue about things we only know in part, we get our pride hurt and often get our egos deflated. We pout we hurt….we heal. But as someone once said “What doesn’t kill us, makes us stronger.”

    I was watching a tribute to Bill Cosby the other evening on PBS, and will share a little part of one of his funny skits.

    Quoting from his book on parenting…in part…”If God had so much trouble with “His” children, what makes you think that you can do any better?”

    Steve

  69. saled says:

    Foreverblessed, thank you for the Spurgeon quote: “God gather your elect! And then go and elect some more.” How wonderful that he could hope for more than what his denomination believed.

    Maybe the differences in our beliefs would not so often become divisions if we emphasized compassion over passion. There is a theory that we become addicted to the chemicals produced by our emotions, and I know myself how passion about a belief can become all consuming in my life. Defending our beliefs is what makes some of us feel alive and useful to God. Compassion is much quieter. Maybe passion is of the flesh, while compassion is of the spirit.

  70. jjhis says:

    Steve, Amen!!!
    Saled, Thanks for the reminder of the compassion of Christ especially for the lost.
    Pooh, we join you in prayer for all.
    “Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.” (1Peter 3:8)

  71. poohpity says:

    I was thinking this morning, uh-oh. lol.

    It seems we are looking at the things that divide and the bad things that happen in a church. How about all the people that are feed, all the souls that get counseling, the rents paid, the utilities paid, homeless housed, blankets given, doctors seen, people prayed for, hugs given, smiles shared, gospel preached, bible taught and countless other things that happen in the fellowship of believers. When you come down to it we are some pretty neat people we have our bad points but we have some awesome good points too.

  72. daisymarygoldr says:

    saled, you have raised a very good point: “passion is of the flesh, while compassion is of the spirit”

    Acts 1:3 says: “To them also He showed Himself alive after His passion (His suffering in the garden and on the cross) … talking [to them] about the things of the kingdom of God.”

    So here is my Q to you, asked with all sincerity and earnestness of my heart:

    According to your beliefs, are you saying that passion of the Christ is of the flesh?

    And no you don’t have to respond to this. It is just to make us think in our effort to preserve Unity in the Spirit:)!

  73. cherielyn says:

    Denominations!!

    I was raised in a Plymouth Brethren Assembly as a child. As an adult I began attending a Baptist Church. When I got married and moved to another part of the state I began attending, then became a member of a Baptist Church because it’s doctrine closely followed that which I had learned in the church of my upbringing.

    Later we moved on to another Baptist Church, which we also became members of. We no longer attend there, but attend yet another Baptist Church. In between the last two, while looking for another church we attended Lutheran and a Presbyterian churches, only to find that some of their beliefs did not line up with what the Scriptures teach.

    The bottom line is, although I lean towards Baptist, I do not consider myself a Baptist. I AM A BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN WHO HAPPENS TO ATTEND A BAPTIST CHURCH! Yes, their beliefs line up with the Scriptures, but the emphasis is being a born-again Christian, trying to follow the principles Christ has laid down for us.

    My daughter has been going to a Berean Bible Institute and has shared many things with me which have been very enlightening. Some things and ideas she shared “went against the grain” for me. I researched them prayerfully a found that some lined up Scripturally while others did not. I believe in allowing the Holy Spirit to guide my study and to show me that which is correct and that which is not.

    I am ever learning, but not allowing myself to be blown about by every wind of doctrine.

    Sorry I have not been here lately. I have been going through some deep trials with hubby. We are a house divided in a spiritual sense. I questioned his salvation for many years and moreso now. Things have been very difficult. I would appreciate your prayers.

    Loretta – How have you been? You’ve been in my prayers. I had to smile when you mentioned pet skunks. I had one years ago. I also had an experience freeing a wild skunk whose head was trapped in a glass jar. It seemed appreciative of the help and did not spray me or try to attack in any other way.

  74. Becky M says:

    Thank you Mart, for understanding me. I came out of such a situation. They preached no Trinity and Jesus could possibly be an angel(waiting on the headquarters for the accuracy of that one). Read Hebrews cht. one on Jesus being an angel. Please correct me if I got the wrong scripture,thank you. They believed that God’s Holy Spirit was on the congregation and that’s why you should be there all the time for all the meetings. They said that “yes God is all over but he’s strongest at the meetings and that’s where we will most likely come to know him and what He wants for His people.” Nothing personal involved. Everything is done for the whole congregation. We were not to misunderstand-God looked upon us personally but we were part of the whole and if we went to all the meetings and participated in all calls on the world with the written material we were in God’s favor. They said God loves a cheerful worker but we were pushed as they said the less we do the less attention or favor we would receive from God. In actuality it was the organization that we displeased and if we displeased the organization we displeased God because that orginization is God’s only people on earth. That said, I came to realize that they never referred to themselves as the Body of Christ. They always had negative things to say about the world’s churches and families. We were not to spend anymore time with our family than we needed to out of respect to them, because they did not believe the truth. I never got baptized and I’m being avoided by them. If they see me they ingnore me and avoid me. I had some good friends while involved with them and I pray for them even though they are not allowed to pray for me. Maybe those who were close to me when I was there pray for me still,they just don’t reveal it to anyone else. They have predicted dates that have never come true. Doesn’t it say in the Bible that if a prophet predictes and it doesn’t come true it did not come from God? That’s why I stepped in to say that just not going to any churches because people look at them as divided is not the worse thing that could happen to potential God fearing people. Our churches must preach & teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ as did the Apostles without nit picking and rules or mans doctrine invading and stopping it from getting out. That said, I do think Satan has worked hard to divide unrightly the Gospel of Christ. It’s so near the end of this(Satan’s world)world that you could cut it with a knife for the thickness. I’ve been having trouble finding a church today so I just set back long enough to study on my own while I attend my childhood church which I think is too easy so to speak. And now are two different denominations come together with one denomination having a history of dividing and coming together again and finally merging into the church it is now. They don’t spend enough time on the Gospel and getting ready the people for Chist’s return. Thank God for RBC Ministies and some other ministries that are on the internet and radio and provide reading materials to reach as many people as possible. They do not go door to door unless you want the material mailed & emailed to you. But, they do manage to get the word out and leave the rest to God. Thank you.

  75. Loretta Beavis says:

    cherielyn! you’re correct-we can be born-again Christians who attend denominational churches or a particular church…
    … and maybe we ask God for discernment regarding just how deeply involved to be or whether to stay … .

    The Church, after all, is God’s people, not a building (as the song says). I look for the Fruit of the Spirit in others and whether or not a personal relationship with God is taught-I do reject teaching that gives man-made laws for that relationship.

    There is great confusion about “religion/denominations” the man-made way to know God and the natural/individual way to know God. It takes time to get to know a worship or fellowship group and, with The Lord’s help, whether to stay or go.

    Thank you, cherielyn, for your prayers, I will pray more specifically for you. As I mentioned, I started attending a 12 step group meeting for people who are affected by the addictions of someone in their life. It covers way bigger hurts than that. I’m gaining a better understanding about how to love others with detachment. I believe waiting on God has opened new doors for me; may He do the same for you.

    I love reading all the comments! It’s good to speak up!

    I love my Jesus.

  76. Becky M says:

    Hi everyone, thanks Mart, for such a good thread. I’ve read thru the comments and I see a common belief among all of us. I do believe that the congregation that I came out of did also believe that Jesus died and rose again for all who would believe on Him. Just because they don’t know exactly who He is, well, I pray that they will accept the Holy Spirit in their hearts and not just think that they need to be in a certain place to receive Him. All I can do is pray and God does the rest. But, no matter where we are Jesus knows His own and we know His voice.

  77. foreverblessed says:

    Since this thread is now over I will post this for all of you who want to read it.
    It is about predestination and free will:
    (Maybe Spurgeon was not a calvinist since he wrote:)
    “I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.” Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that “it is not of him that willeth, or of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once to Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.”

  78. foreverblessed says:

    When I had read this last week, I had a dream that night. Two busses were driving parallel, very very closely parallel. I was in one bus, the other bus was driving, but coming closer to the one I was in. So close, that he pushed the bus of the road. It fell beside the road, and as we fell I saw, there was water. The bus fell in the water. I was yelling to everybody to go to the enrance, but to my relief, the bus did not sink!
    We should let the 2 threads walk parallel, do not push one side or the other from the road of life. That brings trouble, although God is able to save us from it.

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