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Sobriety

More than a few times, I’ve been inspired by those who have learned the hard way to understand the meaning of sobriety.

But what if we said together… OK, some of us get the thing about misusing alcohol, street drugs, or even prescription meds. Maybe it’s time to take our story to the next step…

Am thinking about the kind of sobering up that might have happened when Jesus told his followers that, “The children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light” (Luke 16:8). He said this after telling a story about the shrewdness of an unprincipled “fund manager” who misused what had been entrusted to him. According to Jesus, when the unethical “trustee” was found out, he sat down wrote off more of the debts that he was supposed to be collecting. The result was that when he lost his job, he had “friends” who owed him a favor.

What might have sobered up the disciples is Jesus’ suggestion that some of the people they would have called foolish, immoral, and unethical were actually wiser in many ways than they were.

Would like to see us take some time to compare notes about wisdom as we have seen it in those who don’t claim to be spiritual or religious… and how we ourselves are trying to learn what it means to be wise in the use of the material resources, life-experiences, and knowledge that have been entrusted to us.


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63 Responses to “Sobriety”

  1. chfranke says:

    Mart,
    It sounds to me you are thinking about wizdom.
    Wisdom…is elusive. It is so much easier to be foolish for God than to impart wisdom from God which takes hard work. My personal goal has been to be wise in God. But it aint easy. Try to figure out what the other person is thinking and what they’ll do if you do one thing versus a different approach. The term “Mind bending” comes to my mind. Even with scriptural guidance and heavy prayer it’s hard. I am still looking for tips to achieve that goal.
    Even trying to figure out what other Christians will do is very difficult.
    We are all heading a certain direction; call it inertia. And to change that direction take effort and long term planning. Where is that person headed? What steps will he/she be taking next? What will it take to cause that person to take a step in a slightly different direction? When is the right time to help that person see that flash of insight he/she needs to change direction.
    I’m interested in seeing what others have to say on this, myself.

  2. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Good (GMT) Afternoon Mart, I thought you would change the topic today.
    I had to look up the word sobriety:

    1. the state or quality of being sober (not always me)
    2. the quality of refraining from excess (ditto)
    3. the quality of being serious or sedate (sometimes)

    I also read luke 16 and found the message easier to understand.

    Luke 16: (The Message)

    8-9″Now here’s a surprise: The master praised the crooked manager! And why? Because he knew how to look after himself. Streetwise people are smarter in this regard than law-abiding citizens. They are on constant alert, looking for angles, surviving by their wits. I want you to be smart in the same way—but for what is right—using every adversity to stimulate you to creative survival, to concentrate your attention on the bare essentials, so you’ll live, really live, and not complacently just get by on good behavior.”

    Yes it is a very sobering thought that Jesus wants us to be as canny as the streetwise. It seems we are to keep our wits about us and not settle into complacency.
    It seems a situation like loosing ones job (Seems a familia tale)is designed to help and stimulate us into getting out there and doing something. This estate manager had his wits about him and, even though he was ripping his boss off, his boss reckognised his ability to look after number one. (Sometimes it is good to have the dishonest man on our side so that he can look after our interests to)
    Now if we can put that ability to use in helping others as well as ourselves and also promoting God’s kingdom then just think what could be achived.
    We must be as innocent as doves but a wise/cunning as foxes.
    Someone who is saved from a life of crime and alcoholism and the gutter is often more zealous for God than someone who, as it says above “complacently just gets by on good behavior.”

    Bob

  3. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    My dad was a very nice man who never compained or moaned about anything.
    At work he went totally un noticed for 18 plus years on a night shift in a iron casting factory. Everyone else who moaned and complianed got pay rises and promotions just to keep them quiet. My dad just did his job!
    I am not sure, in the context of the topic, where that places my dad, but “complacently just getting by on good behavior.” does not seem to get rewarded (in this world at anyrate)
    God wants us to be “good and faithful servants” but sometimes we have to stand up and be counted!
    Any thoughts?

  4. refump says:

    I like what James has to say about wisdom in chapter 3 17-18Real wisdom, God’s wisdom, begins with a holy life and is characterized by getting along with others. It is gentle and reasonable, overflowing with mercy and blessings, not hot one day and cold the next, not two-faced. You can develop a healthy, robust community that lives right with God and enjoy its results only if you do the hard work of getting along with each other, treating each other with dignity and honor.(THE MESSAGE). Bob, according to this definition your dad seemed like a wise man in God’s eyes. Did he get all that the world had to offer? Probably not but as God’s Word points out in many places the worlds widsom is way different than God’s wisdom. Seeking God’s wisdom will most likely bump heads with the world’s wisdom & then we must choose…………… James also says if we lack wisdom we should ask for it but be prepared, it often comes at a price called tough life experiences!

  5. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Yes refump
    My dad was all those things above and was gentle and got on with almost everyone but, as far as I knew, did not know Jesus.
    I guess he was wise and until I realised he was a liked man etc. I tried to be the opposite to him, hard and not taking abuse from anyone. That has been difficult for me to shake off. Now, at 56, I want to be more like my dad.
    Both my dad on earth and my Daddy in heaven. I hope by the end of time I am more like the the latter.

  6. SFDBWV says:

    I have got to admit that the use of *sobriety* as a reaction of being told something startling. Is somewhat confusing to the text of the question.

    If I were drunk or even in a state of being dizzy with happiness, and heard a statement so amazing that the very shock of hearing it, sobered me up. May make sense.

    Personaly I think the whole of scripture has such moments and revelations throughout it, one could pick a great number of moments that are *sobering*

    An old saying..”When in Rome, do as the Roamans.”

    When Jesus was castigating the religious leaders of Israel, He called them, son’s of the devil (John 8:44). When Jesus was tempted Himself by the devil, Satan offered Him the world and all that is in it(Matt 4:8,9).
    These religious leaders had learned how to get along very well, in the world. Using a system they considered successful. For their own gain

    Worldly people know how to get along in this world because they are of this world. They understand how things work here.

    I could give you several examples. One comes from a local mine manager, whom I knew (he is dead now). In a meeting with his jr supervisors, he told them “listen, you guys just worry about the little lies, let me worry about the big lies. He was talking about misleading and liying to corporate level managers.

    All of these fellows had jobs as supervisors because they knew how to *play the game*. So they were rewarded by a man who understood such behavior, always believing he could control them. They all knew something on each other. If someone suddenly showed a sense of being a threat. They were fired.

    Christian behavior,flies in the face of dishonesty. So becomes a problem for managers who need to hide the truth. The Christian in this situation, is kept down at a level so as not to make waves. By simply being honest.

    This may make the Christian seem unwise, but only unwise to a world that uses dishonesty as easy as breathing. In the end, good Christian behavior will be rewarded by a just God, forever….The temporary success of world wise people will be judged by this same just God, forever…

    So, we make a choice. Temporary gain now. Or permanent gain in eternity. What does Godly wisdom say to do?

    Steve

  7. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I am just having a lazy afternoon here, so forgive my rambling thoughts, but it is said:
    “it is not what you know but who you know that helps you get on in this life.” As can be seen from Luke 6: The shrewd fund manager knew how to get people on his side to secure his future.
    If we are wise, how much more should we get to know Jesus and spend time with him. Indeed in God’s Kingdom it is not what you know that gets you on track, but who you know!
    I also feel, as said by workinprogress, that we need to be “all things to all men” and if we have to, eat meat offered to idols and be a vegi with a vegi if that will help them see Jesus then it is right to do.
    Wisdom comes in all forms and sizes, but must in the end conform only to God’s word, Jesus.

  8. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Steve
    Yes I feel the same, and that our ways are totally different to the worlds. I think that may be the point Jesus was also trying to make that the world recognises and looks after it’s own, as well as telling us to be more streewise.
    I am sure one reason my boss sacked me was because I always put money through the till, even the non accountable cash sales on second hand items that he would put straight into his pocket.
    I have a clear conscience and he now has a tax arrears bill for £35,000 so who is wisest in the end.

  9. kingsdaughter says:

    I have learned a thing or two about sobriety in the literal sense. My father was an alcoholic who dealt with depression and anxiety. I would see him on his knees saying his prayers while he was drunk! Even as a child I could see his desperation and it left an image I carry to this day. As an adult, I have understood, out of compassion, the conflicts he faced. But he did take it to the Lord in his most weakened state. At one time I saw it as hypocritical although I never heard his words…I knew he must have been confessing his sin and asking for God’s help although my father never conquered his alcoholism; he died of a massive heart attack at 61 yrs. old. I say this to give a personal meaning to “sobriety”..the lesson I learned early in life. That whole experience allowed me to search for wisdom in my youth. My father’s proclivities (alcohol, adultery, abuse) was a learning tool for me even though I did not see it at the time. In fact, I resented it most of my life up until I “nailed it on the cross” at my Emmaus Walk in 1997. I forgave him.

    Bob, I think from what you have described of your father, that he was a humble man. I think that in the eyes of God that is a noble trait. Because he who is last here will be first there…

    And you are right about those who have gone through the worst of it…alcohol, drugs, prostitution, etc…and conquered it, realizing God’s grace…have such a profound testimony so others who are like them can realize that God’s grace it for everyone. People who can empathize with these things because of their experiences have a greater impact. It is kind of like an atheist who has a conversion, someone like C.S. Lewis …other atheists have to look at what turned this man around and question “why?” Christians who grew up in the church usually don’t have a personal conversion..they take for granted their own salvation sometime. In my humble opinion and from personal experience.

    In Christ,
    dale

  10. annalis says:

    sobriety, in my opinion, means far more than not being high from things consumed physically. also a person can be drunk with rage,intoxicated with power, etc. being sober to me means not being controlled by anything, animate or inanimate, than than the Holy spirit, and as God’s word tell us be sober, be vigilant, because the devil your adversary, stalks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. if we were dropped down into lion country out in africa somewhere at night, we would want to be as alert and on our toes as possible and looking for a safe place to be and a way to defend ourselves if necessary. we are, spiritually in such a place as children of God,and need to take even more seriously the eternal implications of not having a very serious reverent fear of God and hell for the unsaved world around us as we go about our lives. listen to the testimony of ’23 minutes in hell’ (just type it in as such) if you want a sobering realization of what truly is at stake and why God died for us and why it His number one passion is to see us save from the horrors of hell and to the glories of an indescribable heaven and eternally safe with Him

  11. poohpity says:

    Proverbs 12:15 says, “A fool thinks he needs no advice, but a wise man listens to others”. I think again that is why God gave us two ears and only one mouth.

    It seems like the man in Luke was being condoned for his dishonest behavior but reading further it continues to say that if you are dishonest in the little things you will dishonest in the bigger things. If you are dishonest with worldly things then how can you be trusted with the true riches of heaven.

  12. poohpity says:

    To soberly look at the results of those who pay more attention to gaining material possessions most times there will be a lacking in other areas of life. Like those who were extended credit in today’s times when in reality they could not really afford what they were buying which in the long run effected everyone else because of the wants to be satisfied quickly. Not considering the long term consequences. Guess what the consequences will happen.

    With spiritual issues again holding to the letter of the law and not considering doing things in love that thinking of others more highly than yourself thing. It all has results or consequences some where down the line. I guess the question being how does one want to be remembered by others and known by God?

  13. Chicopee says:

    Bear with me as I have not done this before…
    You mentioned in your 1st paragraph understanding the meaning of sobriety.

    In my family everyone comes to me for help. I don’t always like this because I have no time left over for me or my spouse. I have become hard now feeling that everyone is “co-dependant” on me. I recently this week think i have become sober to God’s direction in my life. It seems everytime I open a scripture to read I am directed to help others and when I do things for others I must not complain, which lately I do a lot of grumbling. I think I am on the right track now. Yes I am sober to God’s direction.

  14. pegramsdell says:

    Matthew 10:16 (New Living Translation)

    16 “Look, I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. So be as shrewd as snakes and harmless as doves.”

    We need to be smart also, so as to not be fooled by everything people are saying.

  15. afranz says:

    Reading through the selection for today in ODB, so as to finish the Bible in one year, I came across a “sobering” verse that I hadn’t really thought of before. No matter how many times you read the Bible, there’s always something different you notice!
    Anyway, it was when God allowed Sarah to have Hagar and Ishmael removed from the presence of her and her family. Abraham was told by God to do as Sarah asked. Now, it doesn’t seem that God specified anything about provisions, so here is my sobering realization. Abraham is this rich guy with camels and servants and good will with the local leaders and he sends his child and the mother out into the desert with a bottle of water and a loaf of bread. After 13 years in Abraham’s good graces, it’s “hit the road Hagar.”
    God was the one who remembered Hagar with compassion when He heard her and the boy’s cries. God made sure that she was able to care for her son, and that she knew He was with them.
    Was Abraham showing extraordinary wisdom in sending them out alone? Did he just trust that God would handle it? Did he hope that it would cause Hagar to have to rely on his own God?
    Abraham and Sarah thought they had figured out a way to have a son. Hagar thought she had a good deal as the mother of Abraham’s son. Nope, it’s God’s way or the highway. Yet He’s there to help when you realize your way is wrong and you need Him. Just a little sober reflection on the way through Genesis.
    One more day of subzero temps and it is supposed to warm up. Yippee!

  16. SFDBWV says:

    Bob (rdrcomp), I totaly agree. There is a difference between being naive and having trust. Just like there is a difference in having intellegence and having wisdom.

    One has to know how to survive. I am certain that Jesus didn’t intend for we Christians to go set on a rock and wait to be fed, clothed. and housed.

    We are to work and make our way. The difference is that we are to put Kingdom principals into practice, in all that we do. In so doing, show the world the difference between *Children of the Light* and the residents of this world.

    We are to be the chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; so that we may show forth the prasies of HIM who has called us out of darkness into HIS marvelous light.( 1Peter 2:9)

    Abortion… Is the topic that seems to have become the litmus test for people who run for public office. It is like #1 on a list of questions one may put to an individual who wants us to put our trust in them, to represent us in public office.

    If an indivdual doesn’t feel the murder of innocent babies is wrong, then does the rest of the questions matter?

    Politics can be a trap, and yes we Christians can be misled by *wolves in sheeps clothing*. So the gift of discernment must be present in order for us to use the wisdom Christ has pointed us towards. In both politics as well as any of lifes journey.

    Steve

  17. poohpity says:

    rdrcomp, Now that is sober judgment to the Nth degree. That hit the nail on the head. In that area we can be as shrewd as snakes and gentle as doves. That is an area where wisdom and common sense are sorely needed as in many other areas that we need to seek knowledge and show up.

    afranz, I believe that God told Abraham not to worry Ismael would be taken care of. It was Hagar who did not have sober judgment until the Lord provided at the well. Really good thoughts.

  18. Rajnesh says:

    Hello Everyone!

    Thank you Mart for ODB and BeenThinking. I discovered ODB some 15 or so months ago, through a co-worker, God Bless him for that. Such a precious little book.

    Sobriety taught me a hard and expensive lesson not too long ago. Sobering to say the least. I must not and will not go back to my old ways….not if the Good Lord has anything to do with it. He has helped me thus far and I have stayed clear.

    Thank You Jesus!

  19. Hisgirl4life says:

    “He who walks with the wise grows wide, but a companion of fools suffers harm.” Proverbs 13:20

    Interesting topic and comments. In the margin in my Bible there is a comment on “the supreme gift of wisdom.” It reads: “How do you become a wise person? You must first begin to listen. Wisdom is freely available to those who will stop talking and start paying attention–to God and his Word, to parents, to wise counselors. Anybody can become wise, Proverbs says. Wisdom is not reserved for a brainy elite. But becoming wise requires self-discipline to study and humbly seek wisdom at every opportunity.”

    Wisdom can be gained through any experience, including adictive behaviors. Healing comes from acknowledgement. Wisdom comes from our ability to cultivate a humble and teachable heart, one tender to the will of the Holy Spirit.

  20. Hisgirl4life says:

    Sorry…that is “wise” not “wide.” :)

  21. afranz says:

    Mart asked how we had seen wisdom in those who don’t claim to be religious. There is a local motorcycle club that regularly rides for donations to help people less fortunate than themselves. They adopt families during the holidays, and lately stood between an infamous Kansas cult group and the mourners of a local family killed at Thanksgiving. They have done this quietly and with restraint. To me, they are the ones who have shown wisdom, not the group with the religious name that pickets and spreads hate messages.
    Their actions have made me see that I could do so much more than I have. One thing I want to look for in this new year is God’s direction in helping others with the things He has blessed me with. Pro.16:16 “How much better to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen rather than silver.”

  22. saled says:

    This passage in Luke 16 has always baffled me, but after reading the posts here and rereading the passage, I noticed this: The manager was giving away something that was not his, and then in verse 9 Jesus tells us to use worldly wealth to gain friends for ourselves, so that when it is gone, we will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. This worldly wealth that Jesus speaks of also belongs to our Master, and we need to be as free in spending it on others as the shrewd manager in this parable was.

  23. poohpity says:

    Hisgirl4life, I was wondering if that is why my rear end looks like it does, LOL!!!

    saled, I think it is all referring to the folks that walk in the way of the world are more clever in dishonesty than the Godly. One translation says, v9 “But shall I tell you to act that way, to buy friendship through cheating? Will this ensure your entry into an everlasting home in heaven? v10 No! For unless you are honest in small matters, you won’t be in large ones. If you cheat even a little, you won’t be honest with greater responsibilities.

    You are correct about all that we have is given to us from God and to be used to benefit others. But the context of the whole passage has many lessons to learn one is who is really first in our lives and what has the most importance.

  24. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Pooh

    v10 No! For unless you are honest in small matters, you won’t be in large ones. If you cheat even a little, you won’t be honest with greater responsibilities.

    That has just convicted me!
    Even though I used to put all money’s into the till(Cash register) at work I was starting to do little jobs for people “cash in hand” may have only been £5 occasionally but it stayed in my pocket. also just before I was made redundant I took an old mobile phone and camara that had been in a filing cabinet for 4 years and were about to be chucked out in our premises move.
    Maybe I am not honest in “the small matters”.
    It is so difficult in this world not to tainted by the culture of dishonesty.
    Dear Father, help me to be honest and true to you.

    Bob

  25. xrgarza says:

    Mart,

    This is the very thing that I have been for lack of a better word to use is questioning myself. I’ve been in church most of my life, I’ve had my ups and downs, I’ve seen the various fads within the church, as well as heard the various buzz words.

    Since about 1987 I began studying the word and applying its principles to my daily life I have found that If I apply proven principles to my life they work a lot better than anything that I could come up with on my own.

    The Bible say’s that Jesus went to His own and His own received Him not.

    I find it quite interesting that when I am with biological family even those that are Christians often times I feel like the black sheep of the family. While on the other hand when I’m with complete strangers, I am looked up to for wisdom and advise.

    Not to mention, as a single person desiring to meet a Christian lady, with all due respect I have met women that are virtually more “innocent” if I could use that term in the night clubs that I used to frequent when I was much younger than those that I am meeting in church today. I had this very conversation with my son last night over dinner.

    I remember during our last Presidential election, I so desperately wanted Mitt Romney to win the election. All of my Christian friends would say “but he’s a Mormon” you know I would much rather have a Mormon man of integrity in the oval office than a Christian like Bill Clinton anytime.

    I believe that the world in recent years has had a greater influence on the church than the church has had on the world. It has happened so subtly that if one tries to mention the fact people’s feathers tend to get ruffled.

    But yes I have met many non-Christians that I thought they had to be Christians just by the way they walked, and talked. As a matter of fact my very own mentor to this day has never been a Christian.

    It is frustrating to say the least because I often times feel like the lone ranger, and ask myself could it be that I’m the one doing it wrong?

    Keep me in prayer I’m having a wisdom tooth pulled this morning at 8:00am

    Xavier

  26. xrgarza says:

    afranz, I responded to your question that you asked at the previous blog “So Be it… Un…resolved ”

    Xavier

  27. saled says:

    Pooh, read Luke 16:9+10 in the NIV. That was the translation that I had at hand when I was posting. Can we together figure out the discrepancy between the NIV and the translation that you used? I agree that Jesus was saying that worldly people are more alert and clever. I work with someone who claims no spirituality, but she has more wisdom, often evidenced by love, than I do. We work in a school, and she is always alert to opportunities to show interest in the life of the children or other staff members. I sometimes pray for this same alertness.

  28. Lively says:

    Hopefully, someone can help me out with the verse – I don’t remember it well enough to find it.

    In essence, it says that even those who’ve not had the benefit of the Bible knows God. That he knows the difference between right and wrong.

  29. daisymarygoldr says:

    Xavier, praying for your tooth extraction…

    Jesus did not commend the “dishonest” manager for his smartness. It was the worldly master in the story that commended the manager for his quick and smart thinking. In Luke 16 Jesus is teaching His disciples the concepts of accountability and responsibility with our God-given talents and gifts.

    Jesus draws a spiritual lesson from a worldly example and cautions His disciples to not be like the Pharisees… who like the “dishonest manager” love money and have made money their god, to openly give alms to the poor, to justify and show themselves as godly before men.

    Jesus rebuked the religious leaders and said “but God knows your hearts.” Dishonesty which is highly esteemed in the wisdom of men is detestable in the sight of God.

    The people of this world are smart and wise to invest and plan for a secure future. In the same way, Christians should also be “wise in the use of the material resources, life-experiences, and knowledge that have been entrusted to us”- MDH

    …so that when our lives on this earth ends, we will look forward with hope…. to a grand welcome into our eternal dwellings …by friends who got converted through our faithful sharing of the Gospel!

  30. daisymarygoldr says:

    Want to invest in friends for eternity? To serve God and others with the leftovers of our physical and material possessions/resources is not enough. It is only when we give sacrificially we invest in eternity. Invest means to multiply, to increase, to grow and produce fruits in plenty…

    If we invest and are found “faithful” with what “little” we have in this world, we will be faithful in “much” of the true and eternal riches of our inheritance in Christ… in God’s eternal kingdom! And to whom much is given, much is also required.

    So, this morning I am being alerted i.e. “sobered up” by the Holy Spirit… to use the gifts of God: my faith, salvation, education, career, job, wealth, health, spouse, children and all of my relationships and abilities… and even the short amount time which I have been given to live on this earth… to win souls for the Kingdom of God!

    In His goodness, God has blessed me with good gifts from above. I should not become possessive with my gifts to retain them for my personal pleasure…. like the unfaithful servant who had buried his talent. Instead I should invest them for my eternal future…to use them for my eternal dwellings—the Kingdom of God!

    Aside: Michael, missed your Christmas and New Year wishes… I pray and hope everything is well at your end…

    bubbles, Stacy and foreverblessed: Thank you so much for your prayers and good wishes!

  31. daisymarygoldr says:

    Also wanted to say, this post is good but the pics are bad… and that’s okay, because I thoroughly enjoyed both the pic and post “How does your garden grow?” by David Roper in the Pastor’s Blog!

  32. poohpity says:

    Hey saled,

    I think when considering the difference in translations there really isn’t that much if when you look at verse nine you might consider the tone as being more sarcastic in the NIV. Then one has to consider the context in which it is written. Read it through from verse 1 through 14 and think of it in a different voice. Can you tell what I do with my time, LOL. Good thoughts!!

  33. afranz says:

    Pooh and Hisgirl4life
    Thanks for the best laugh I’ve had in a week!! I’m still chuckling.(wide/wise)

  34. poohpity says:

    I thought it was funny too and always wonder if anyone is really paying attention. You are, lol!

  35. afranz says:

    Well, I got desperate and hauled out my 20-lb study Bible to see what they had to say about Luke 16. Seems there were some OT loopholes where a creditor could drop the finance charges (wouldn’t that be nice) or the steward may have written off his commission. Since the owner wasn’t upset that the steward did this, I tend to agree. The owner got his money, the steward broke even and made a few friends.
    This passage reminds me of that little song we used in Sunday School.
    The wise man built his house upon the Rock.
    The wise man built his house upon the Rock.
    The wise man built his house upon the Rock.
    And the rains came pouring down.
    The rain came down and the flood came up.(3 x’s)
    And the house on the Rock stood fast.
    The foolish man built his house upon the sand. (3 x’s)
    (same chorus) BUT
    The house on the sand went SPLAT~~~~
    There are a lot of good lessons in songs! :>)

  36. plumbape says:

    Mom I’m Home, Hi everyone…! I must apologize for just “reading and studying”, but not posting. Happy New Year and wishing all had a wonderful Christmas. Thank you Daisy and Poohpity (from previous posts) for asking about me. I had a good laugh from your post Deb also. Congratulation on being blessed with child DMG. American by birth, ;^)…!

    Most admit I’ve had my little feelings hurt! I’ll get over it I’m sure.

    Love you folks
    Thanks Mart
    The Ape in Indy
    Michael

  37. kaliko88 says:

    Lively, I think these are the verses you’re looking for.

    Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

    I’m going to have to think more on this topic. That lesson in the bible was always a little hard for me to understand. There’s just something about it that bugs me, at least until I do understand it.

  38. plumbape says:

    Street Wise…,
    I went to Pen State Gladiator School for my BA in Habitual Criminology, which I’m a little embarrassed to admit it took closer to 5yrs. to graduate. I could have easily obtained my MA degree with only one more X in the required XXX to put me in with 94 percent of the class, but like a stubborn youngster and more importantly “God Willing” I choose the hard way of the 6 percent.

    Jesus said the the brother was “accused” not guilty. The master commended his shrewdness so they were probably both wrong, one interested in his own riches only and the steward was calling it his job to make it sound right so he reaches out to the people he was soon to join, so let us not become so superior in our holiness that we forget where we came from.

    Let us judge those poorest of the poor that are being saved by the thousands every day the same way someone living under the blanket of freedom this country provides while becoming rich like everyone else apparently is. Calling it your job sure don’t make it right. We live in a land made up of people from every country in the world. The wise words of Bill Murray in “Stripes”, “Our founding forefathers have been kicked out of every decent country in the world”. Here is an easy parable, The Army Sargent asks a group of new recruits to raise there hand if they masturbate. About half the hands went up, so the Sarge said it seems half of this group is normal and half are liars. We as a people group are the same and the Spirit is at war with the flesh. Let us keep our sight set on the Lord and fight the good fight, Amen…?!

    Michael

  39. Lively says:

    kaliko88 –

    That’s it! Thank you for finding it. I think it is confusing because it seems to indicate that even people who have not accepted Jesus might get into Heaven too. That’s why I wanted to find it and post it – I really need to learn the scripture better.

    I find this part of the verse most compelling, “their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them” Could it be, that those we see in our lives who live more like Christians, than most Christians we know (or even ourselves) but have not professed thier faith, are actually Chrisians?

    I don’t see how it can mean anything else – and for me it’s heartening.

    Stacy

  40. poohpity says:

    Well ape you came back with a bang didn’t you! I am feeling a little frustrated by your analogy. First I do not understand the point and second I do not feel it was appropriate. You said you were feeling hurt. What is that about? So, you have been lurking in the shadows.

  41. poohpity says:

    I think Lively that it has to be read in it’s entirety. If one doesn’t read Romans 1 that tells the Gospel message then Romans 1:18-31 God’s anger at sin; then Romans 12:1-16 is God’s judgment of sin and that judgment will be equally given out as well as grace for those who seek it. I believe it is a continual letter if one looks only at one portion then it loses some of the main parts of the whole. Just some thoughts and it may be not correct.

  42. Lively says:

    Pooh,

    I agree about taking verse out of context. I looked again at what I posted, and I realize that I didn’t convey my thoughts properly. It’s a bit busy around here, so I can’t get a full thought in – I’m liable to not do it right again, so I’ll try and post later. :-)

    Stacy

  43. foreverblessed says:

    This Passage of Luke 16:1-12 has always been very difficult for me. Still after reading all the comments it still doesn’t sink in. Put the words in google: Luke 16 commentary and got some extra information.

    “Whatever we have, the property of it is God’s; we have only the use of it, according to the direction of our great Lord, and for his honour.”
    “The unjust steward is not set before us as an example in cheating his master, or to justify any dishonesty, but to point out the careful ways of worldly men. It would be well if the children of light would learn wisdom from the men of the world, and would as earnestly pursue their better object. The true riches signify spiritual blessings; and if a man spends upon himself, or hoards up what God has trusted to him, as to outward things, what evidence can he have, that he is an heir of God through Christ?”

    It would seem to me, that everything we have been given from God, we should use it for spreading the seed of the Kingdom.
    So more people could enter.
    Lively you commented on that a few topics ago? My grace is enough?
    Doesn’t God want us to stay here in the world to touch more people?

  44. foreverblessed says:

    Lively about Romans 2.
    It does seem to say so, that when people have been good, and morally on a high plane, they are not to go to hell directly.
    I think this passage fits in with another one, where Jesus says that at the end all people will be gathered by the angels, and they will be judged according to what they have done. That is all people who ever lived. So if that is said, there still must be a chance for them to make it through the door, who is Christ, to the Father, when their lives have been on a morally high standard.

    But the ones who are Christ’s at His coming are already with Him, so no more judging for them.

  45. poohpity says:

    Looking forward to your thoughts Stacy and understand not being able to put thoughts into words that just about says it all for me.

  46. foreverblessed says:

    So one of the first posts on this topic was that we should be shrewed in making friends for the Kingdom, and I agree with that. Like Paul, be Romans to the Romans, and eat food sacrified to idols if that would be useful to win people for the gospel.
    That is being shrewed, as Jesus wants us to be.
    We christians tend to be too holy in these things, doing things too strict. It also reminds of the midwifes who did a small lie in order to save the oung babies to be killed by Pharao. Exodus 1:15-19

  47. Lively says:

    foreverblessed you said, Doesn’t God want us to stay here in the world to touch more people?

    That I don’t have to think about, that’s exactly why I think some of are here and suffer deeply.

    When you say, my grace is enough – you were referring to my comment about His grace is sufficient as our answer, right?

    Years ago, before I recommited myself to God, I saw a license plate on the back of a car. I was an avid poet at the time – and even being a “lapsed” Christian, it made me angry. So, I did what all good little poets do – I wrote a poetic rant :-)

    Blasphemy on a Buick

    WeOGod2
    Letters stamped upon a metal plate,
    Lord of Lies shall be proud,
    signs of false prophecy,
    blasphemy for all to see.
    For she has asked her Lord above
    “Forgive my sins, forgive my debts,
    forgive me all, for I have trespassed.”
    I ask, what is there left to owe?

    Christ died upon the cross for us,
    He gave His only begotten Son for you, for me
    and yet that does not seem to be enough,
    for you plead and cry your Prayers
    standing upon street corners;
    He commanded that to secrecy,
    what is in your heart
    is between you and He.

    The first three lines (looks like 4 here because of odd line break) refer to the “Work of the Cross” and the last 5 refer to Matt 6:4-6.

    So, yes – I strongly believe that His grace and even more so, His gift, Jesus, is all we need.

    This issue with Romans is so much harder for me to express, probably because I’ve not really done a devotional on it.

  48. poohpity says:

    Lively, Loved your poem and let’s read together this week and see what we come up with, ok? You have a good way with words.

  49. Lively says:

    Thanks, Pooh. But, that poem is definately the Lords work!

    Do you want to focus on Romans 2:12-16 or go back to Romans 1?

  50. AmazedbyHis grace says:

    For many years, I’ve shared this with many who were struggling or not connected with the Lord. I believe that the Lord has blessed RBC, using them as a tool to direct us in His word. The wisest choice I’ve made was to do daily devotions. I’ve seriously had more things happen to me than Job, but you wouldn’t know it just by talking to me. God’s blessed me with a happy heart, clarity of mind and a will to overcome. My sobriety date in May marks 28 years. No sponsors, no support, no AA, just daily growth in the Lord has kept be sober. In my own opinion, I wonder if RBC has been blessed because they never ask for money and appear to have just trusated in the Lord. Hugs to RBC.

  51. daisymarygoldr says:

    Michael:) Happy to hear back from you! Thank you very much, for all your warm wishes! Really sorry, for your hurt feelings, please forgive me:( However, that is no reason for staying away from the blog.

    It is exactly why we should not be about people first! You see, if it is God first, then no matter what people say or do to us, we will continue to faithfully allow God’s love to flow through us… even to those who hate us. It is because Jesus had given first place to God, He was able to do the will of His Father… to die on the cross for us—His enemies. Hope this helps you understand why I am not about people first.

    Proud of your academic achievements and I’m sure the Lord is using it mightily to gain many friends for His eternal Kingdom! I also have other friends who are not as rich and educated as you. Just to give you some perspective… the best gift which my husband and I greatly cherish was a small coin which one of the guests at our wedding had pressed into his hands… which is equivalent to 0.006 US$!

    And those friends who belong to the “poorest of the poor”… are so spiritually rich in their faith as they patiently endure not only such sufferings that are universal to all but also joyfully face killings, torture, rape and harassment… not for their sins but for the sake of Christ!

    Michael, how can we judge when God Himself has chosen those friends “who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the Kingdom” (James 2:5)? With the love of Christ…keep posting:)

  52. Becky M says:

    Hi everyone, Mart may close this thread very shortly and I just want to say something off the theme(I haven’t read any of this thread yet). I just got done reading the last thread and I left a message for all there. I’m not trying to continue the thread but I think that the themes may be changing starting with this one so I wanted to leave my comment on the last one seeing it’s about that one and the few that went before it mostly. I ask that you do not lengthen that one for Mart’s sake. Mart, I’m thinking that that is the way you’d want it. You already started this thread which has been here for a while and I’m thinking your ready to start the new one. I just wanted to alert all of you to my comment on that one which will explain it all when you read it. Thank you and again,God bless all of you.

  53. Sunday2 says:

    Hi everyone, I’m new to blogging and this site. I discovered it after listening to the Daily Bread.This topic “Sobriety” drew me. I’ve been Sober and Saved for 7yrs.Since I’ve been saved, I have a church home,I’m in Bible study and I’ve grown. Since my walk with Christ,I’ve sobered up from a many things like anger, fear, hate ect. God’s love is bringing great healing to my life. Prayerfully, I’ll sober up from many things as I walk with Christ. Life is so much better now with a clear mind that focused on the things of God.I look forward to sobriety. I’m learning much from you on RBC ,you have me pulling out my Bible along with you. GOD BLESS YOU!!!!

  54. poohpity says:

    Lively that is entirely up to you you may not even want to do it. It is OK whatever you choose or not.

    Ape, you know I also got a degree from the college of hard knocks, lol. Sometimes it is a blessing and sometimes it is not. We can be shrewd but it is the gentleness of the dove that I sometimes wrestle with.

  55. Lively says:

    Actually, I do want to do it, Pooh. Looking like I won’t be able to do it this morning/afternoon (usually when I have quiet time) my little one is running a fever :-(

    I’m really wishing there was a discussion forum here!

  56. poohpity says:

    I will be praying for your little one. Pray for a quick recovery. Sad to hear that. Just let me know how the child is doing.

  57. Lively says:

    He’s a typical 2 1/2 year old – bounced back as soon as the motrin/tylenol kicked in – though I did have to use the every 2 hour trade off method to get his fever down.

    Thank you for the prayers :-)

  58. plumbape says:

    Poohpity, I know very well how similar your education and mine are. I’ve felt like at times I know you personally but I don’t really, of course. I realize after reading what I wrote that it didn’t make much sense. The same thing that makes this blogging so interesting also can make it frustrating. Like brother Steve and some others have mentioned it would be better for some if we could set down and talk instead of writing or I should say typing. I’m not to good at typing and I don’t always have the time or the energy to choose the words carefully, spell the words that I can speak easily enough and keep my mind focused on one subject at a time. The flip side is I can take my time and think about what I’ve read and look up the scriptures write some notes and then comment if I have something to add or ask. Sometimes what happens is I just decide to write a comment and I get interrupted and my mind is on 2 or 3 things but I keep typing and I’m all over the place so I hit the submit button regardless of how it might sound, lol. Then it’s like Michael why did you submit that stupid mess of thoughts…?! lol I’m still learning so it’s all good. Thanks for the concern and thoughts.

  59. plumbape says:

    daisymarygoldr> Thank You for recognizing who I felt offended by. It was not the “people matter most issue”. Although I still respectfully submit to you that your reply to me was a skillful way of avoiding answering the questions I ask. I think I understand the Good Samaritan but what I don’t understand is the first two “holy” brothers had there site so fixed on God and scripture that they couldn’t be bothered with getting there hands dirty to help the victim of a crime.

    Sometimes it seems you were thought that the American people are all evil, rich and spoiled. It is you that is judging a people group that is in no way close to the people in those *other* parts of the world, according to you anyway. I have read about the faithful that are subjected to horrible persecution in other parts of the world and it breaks my heart. They aren’t persecuted by Americans. There are on the other hand Americans that have suffered greatly at the hands of those same evil people for taking the Gospel to the lost in other parts of the world. But if someone mentions that then it is not the same, or is it…?
    What really really offended me is how you can justify saying:
    How else can one explain the poorest of the poor in other parts of the world who are so much stronger in faith and are in every way superior when compared to Christians here who are stricken with spiritual poverty due to lack of faith or wisdom?
    What biblical equation does one use to determine which Christians are *far superior* compared to the ones who are shall we say *less superior*..? With all due respect, are you able to see the 230 million people in this country, that is made up of people from every where on the planet and you feel it is righteous to say..?
    The gospel has been proclaimed throughout the length and breadth of this land and it has also been rejected. The reason for this is: since people refuse to see themselves as sinners, they also do not feel the need for forgiveness of sins and as a result their response to the gospel is mute indifference.

    I’m just a knuckle head so thanks for listening
    Michael

  60. poohpity says:

    Please do not call my friend a knuckle head. He is a much loved child of God. To those who have been shown much grace and forgiveness are able to give it more to others. You are one of those folks, ape. Love Deb

  61. daisymarygoldr says:

    Micahel:), I’m sorry, it was not my intent to avoid answering your questions… frankly, I had no idea you had asked any and I’m glad you communicated this to me. Just guessed that you got hurt by the “people matter most issue” and hence had offered my apologies.

    Regarding the “holy” brothers—the priest and the Levite represent human holiness that comes by observing the laws and sacrifices of the old covenant. They cannot deliver humanity that has been robbed, beaten and broken by the evil in this world.

    Jesus alone fulfilled the law in its deepest intent and is the Good Samaritan… and was proved by the Law to be the only one in whom there is no sin. He represents divine Holiness… and is the only hope and help to deliver a helpless and hopeless mankind that is left to die due to sin.

    I’m sure you already know all of this… the oil speaks of the soothing comfort of the Holy Spirit and wine—symbolizes His blood, shed for the cleansing of our sins… and together they restore healing to restore dead sinners back to life.
    Try dabbing some alcohol on to a cut on your skin, Michael and let me know how it feels:)… it stings and hurts doesn’t it? The blood of Jesus offends those who love their sins more than the Holiness of God!

    The inn is the church, where God places broken people. The innkeeper represents the church leadership who are paid to nurture wounded people back to good health… and for this they will be duly reimbursed… when the Lord returns to find His people no longer broken by sins but spiritually healthy and happily worshiping our Holy God!

    Samaritans and the Jews did not belong to the same people groups. So, if we want to be like the Good Samaritan, then Jesus tells us to “Go and do likewise”. Speaking of American people… Michael, I do love this country and always thank the Lord for the faithful who labor to spread the Gospel to all the ends of this earth!

    About my comment on “the poorest of the poor in other parts of the world” and the gospel in this land, I stand by everything I said. Michael, James 2:5 from the Bible justifies my stand. No, I cannot see the 230 million people, but I do see and find myself miserably “less superior” when my own faith is compared to theirs.

    And no, I’m not offended by this but it only humbles me to grieve and repent for my moments of unbelief and lack of faith… and to re-dedicate my life to serve Him faithfully for the rest of my life!

    And this is from someone who is a bigger knuckle head than you and I am grateful we have this blog to learn together the wonderful wisdom of the Bible! Michael, hope and pray, the Holy Spirit will convey this to you with the deepest love of Christ for you!

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