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Sovereignty and Free-Will

Would God hold us accountable for something that He has not given us the ability to do?

The people of Israel might have wondered as much when they heard Moses say, in his farewell address, “The LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear” (Deut 29:4 NKJ).

These had to be hard words to hear especially since Moses was warning about what would happen if they did not keep their part of the covenant God had made with them (Deut 28:1-68). How could they avoid such trouble if God was withholding what they needed to please Him?

Part of the answer seems to be found in the next chapter. Moses goes on to foresee a day when God will give his people a heart of understanding, after they acknowledge their wrongs and return to him. (Deut 30:1-6).

This text indicates that only when Israel finally comes to their senses will God give them new hearts. Yet the New Testament later tells us that even repentance is a gift of God (2Tim 2:25). So if God foreknows that Israel is eventually going to return to Him for a new heart, by whose choice will that happen?

On this point theologians disagree. Calvinists say that fallen humans are dead in sin and cannot not ask God to save them unless God causes them to do so. Arminians say that even though fallen humans are separated from God by sin and spiritual death, they still have enough residual conscience and capacity for choice to ask God for mercy.

Both sides find support for their conclusions in the Bible. Calvinists point to statements that say God calls to Himself those who He, on the basis of His own will, graciously chooses for salvation (Ephesians 1:4-5). Arminians counter with texts that say God calls everyone to personally receive the good news of what Christ has done for us (Revelation 22:17).

Both sides see a relationship between God’s foreknowledge and election (Romans 8:29-30; 1Peter 1:2). They part ways, however, over what the Bible means by foreknowledge. To one degree or another, Calvinists link what God foreknows to what He predetermines. Arminians are more likely to say that God sees what will happen and gives humans freedom of choice in responding to His call.

Ever since the days of John Calvin (1509-1564) and Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), many have regarded this ongoing theological debate as a defining issue in understanding the glory and goodness of God.

On the positive side, the provocative nature of this issue has prompted many to carefully study the Scriptures in an attempt to understand which side is right.

Along the way, however, there have been casualties. More than a few have gotten caught in the cross-fire between well-meaning people who have considered the other side heretics and enemies.

Others, quite unintentionally, have put their trust in human assumptions and reason in an attempt to resolve the mystery of a Bible that emphasizes both Divine foreknowledge and human responsibility.

The result of such theological speculation has been costly for people on both sides. By pressing the logic of either sovereign election or human free will, many, on both sides, have ended up without the assurance of their own salvation. Emphasizing either God’s sovereign election or human choice rather than what the Bible says about both has caused countless people to wonder whether they have seen enough change in themselves to consider their election sure.

Does this mean that it’s better not even to explore what the Scripture says about God’s election and the human will? No. What it means is that, when we begin to say more or less than the Scriptures say, we need to stay in touch with what is foundational to our relationship with God and one another.

Faith—We need to remember that there is authority in no more and no less than what God has revealed about his sovereign grace, and the choices for which he holds us accountable (1Cor 4:6).

Hope—Unless we rest in the good news of what Christ did for us, we will never find the assurance of our salvation by emphasizing either God’s sovereign election or our responsibility to choose.

Love—Without the love of God for those who disagree with us, all of the theology and logic in the world is the kind of noise that will push ourselves and others away from Christ rather than toward him.

In addition, it’s important for us to remember that, down through history, when either Calvinists or Armenians have put their faith in what Christ has done for us—rather than in what we have done for Him, they have found reason to be eternally grateful for a salvation that none of us deserves.

So, in spite of our differences, both Calvinists and Arminians can pray,

Father in heaven, please give us a heart to accept as much understanding as you want us to have, enough humility to acknowledge what you alone understand, and enough love to respect the brothers and sisters who have come to different conclusions than we have… about why we owe You our grateful love and worship—forever.


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88 Responses to “Sovereignty and Free-Will”

  1. Lively says:

    This entry reminds me of a favorite riddle – Can God create a rock so large that He can not move it, and then move it?

  2. Pilgrimhere says:

    New to the blog, but I can’t keep quite on this one. I was raised a baptist preacher’s kid and had my salvation “taken away” at the age of 9 by Calvinism. I struggled along until I was 17 and a friend, who was penticostal, asked me what I was waiting for. I responded that I hadn’t felt Holy Sirit conviction yet in my heart, at least to the point where God was for sure dealing with me. What tangled webs we weave! The only message that Christ mandated to the disciples was to go into the WORLD and preach the GOSPEL to every creature! He didn’t say to go and confuse every creature with theology about predestinated election. “Behold I stand at the door and knock”. Hallelujah! That’s all I need to know – so simple – as intended.

  3. foreverblessed says:

    Maybe this special election and predestiantion is about those who will have special jobs in the Kingdom, kings and priests. Like Paul, his conversion is somewhat like a miracle, who could resist such a call?

    I did not see a big light from heaven, and great miraculous things. Just a simple small guiding. A sure knowledge that it must be a simple faith: saved by Christ, He died for our sins, and now we live in faith in Him.

  4. foreverblessed says:

    Yes Pilgrimhere, just now saw your note:
    If we wait for that very special call, we would be like the man who had received only one talent, from Matthew 25.
    And even that talent he buried in the ground. It is better to do something with the one talent, respond to it and live in Christ, then to wait for the big miracle like Pauls Acts 22:3-16

  5. Grace48 says:

    What God did for us thru Jesus is awesome. It will never cease to amaze me. As in Job 42:1-6 so I sit in wonderment of God”s wisdom so far above us. In grateful praise.

  6. SFDBWV says:

    Good morning Mart, This is a rather deep subject. As I read it I first thought to send a quick message and say you were giving me a headache. But I thought that too unfair, or unkind. I would not want to be guilty of either offence.

    I was reminded of the accounting of the un named woman found in Luke 7: 36-50. Here was a situation where in the simple gratefulness and understanding of who Jesus was, gave this woman the opprotunity to show her heart felt love for Jesus. Not a word passed between them, yet Jesus say’s to her “Thy sins are forgiven.” and to add to that he says “Thy faith hath saved thee: go in peace.”

    Here, by personal choice, this woman’s sins were forgiven her, then she was given peace.

    In 1 Timothy 1:15, Paul says “that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;”

    I don’t see in that statement, that Jesus came to only save sinners that God had already marked to save. But rather a blanket statement Christ came to save sinners.

    In predestination, what I see is that all of mankind is given the opportunity of salvation through Christ Jesus. That is the predestined will of God.

    All of mankind then must chose, this is our predestined will of God.

    We, all of us were from the beginning called (predestined) to be saved. Yet we all come to that fork in our journey through life where we are given by God the choice to accept or reject the will of God.

    It has been said that to whom much has been given, much is required. I believe this to be true.

    The more knowledge we have concerning God the more is required of us. It is for us to share what we know, and share what we have with everyone.

    What do we have that is so valuble? The knowledge of salvation and the gift of the Holy Spirit. This we are to share. With the whole of mankind.

    If you have a neighbor, share with him. If you have a work place share with them. If you have a radio program, share with your listeners. Do you have a larger and wider audiance? Then share with all you can.

    To believe that only certain people are predestined for salvation, makes Jesus’s sacrifice unessesary and gives ammunition to Satan to cause doubt and confusion.

    When Jesus prayed for His disciples, not to lose any (except the one *predestined* to betray Him), why would He need to if they were already preordained not to fall?

    The history of the creation and fall of man, was preknown to God as to how everything would work out. But we still have the responsibility to make the choice. For or against Christ Jesus.

    Steve

  7. SFDBWV says:

    With reguards to the prayer Mart offered in conclusion to the topic comments…

    How difficult it is to tell another believer what you *know* only to create anger or resentment in that person. Either because they just disagree or that they think you * hard headed* in your attitude, Or blind to what they believe.

    The experiance certainly builds patience in any whom have had the unpleasent experiance.

    No wonder many do not share what they know.

    How to be seen as a reed that is not blown by the wind, rather than stuborn.

    Remember how when God gave the information to Jonah as to the impending doom coming to Ninevah. He did not want to go, believing no one would believe him, and if they did and repented God would change his mind and he (Jonah) would look foolish.

    How much do we then believe the information others have provided to us? How is what we *know* recieved by others?

    Should our desire be to keep quiet? As was Jonah’s. Or should we share what we *know* and be prepared to be rejected as well as recieved.

    Jesus told us the parable of the sower. Some of what we share will fall upon deaf ears some in fertile minds some in shallow thinkers. We have no control over that.

    I suppose it comes to that point whereas we are either to be bold, selfish or timid. In sharing what God has allowed us to know.

    Steve

  8. rokdude5 says:

    Well said, Steve.

    My Bible does say “…God so love the world…” (not just the elect). In my feeble mind, the best way to harmonize all this is that God chose the entire world to worship and follow Him. He could have not created people and avoid this whole mess altogether. But our God is a loving God. He chose to create us nevertheless. Yet we are not robots so eventually, we do need to make a choice.

    Thank you Lord for choosing us!! RJ

  9. C-follower says:

    I think this is a good article, and have heard this talked about in churches. But, I believe that what John 20:29-31 says is key to understanding this dialog…”Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed, blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed…That ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
    This seems pretty simple…if you believe in Jesus as the Redeemer/Christ, then you will be saved. We don’t have to argue over whether people believe in Atoms that we can’t see, or in the wind that we can’t see. We “SEE” through faith, and we “SEE” through seeing the results of what is changed in Jesus Name. When we see a new believer that has changed because of his belief, or when we see an answer to prayer through faith in Jesus Name, then we know He is REAL and His Name is POWER. No other name that is believed in can “change” a life like Jesus Name does. God has only required that we admit we are sinners, and need His Name that saves us. Let us “SEE” by faith. :)

  10. mlewisusc says:

    I say this tongue-in-cheek, but I was surprised one day in studying John’s gospel to discover Jesus was a Calvinist! Here’s the scriptures: 35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    “41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

    43″Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44″No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.”

    The key support for a predestinarian view being v 44: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” Fairly direct, and has put me in the predestinarian camp for many years. Unlike the poster above, I grew up in an Arminian style church, and my assurance of salvation came to me later in life, upon study of Romans 9, and this passage in John 6 – God is more powerful than any thing or any one – and even my own will cannot take me out of His hand; it was wonderful to rest on that assurance! We had for many years a faithful elder in our church who was from Zambia in Africa, studying in Pasadena and serving us all the while. He once said to me, “It is good to be a Calvinist when you first become a Christian, and then behave like an Arminian as you mature.”

  11. Sunday2 says:

    How can we truly know which one it is. I’m just so grateful for my salvation,it doesn’t matter how it happened. I’m just glad it did. I thank God for his Mercy, Grace, and unconditional Love.

  12. SFDBWV says:

    2 Peter 2:9″The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

    The Lord”s will…That not, any, should perish…But that *all* should come to repentence.

    No special list, in the words *any* or *all*.

    Steve

  13. xrgarza says:

    Growing up I didn’t get into whether we were Calvinist or Armenian’s I just knew we were Christians. It wasn’t until I had a co-worker who is Christian began a conversation with me and he began to say things that I had never heard before, at first I thought he was joking with me, but later learned that he wasn’t.

    Pilgrimhere, Interesting I grew up in a Pentecostal church I was so confused by the time I was 25, I declared that when I die, I was going to spend eternity in Hell because I did not have what it took to be a Christian.

    Five years later God showed up, and my walk has never been the same. Today when folks that are struggling with their walk and wanting assurance of their salvation. I have simply shared as a resident of God’s Kingdom the only way that I can lose my residency/salvation is if I defect.

    Similarly like my residency here in the states. I’m an American, and it’s not because I pledge allegiance to the flag every day, or read the constitution on a daily basis. First of all I was born here. My friends that migrated here are citizens because they chose and were accepted. Yes there are poor examples of Americans as well as good examples; similarly there are poor examples of Christians as well as good examples. But once you are a citizen, you don’t just lose it.

    mlewisusc, very good word “It is good to be a Calvinist when you first become a Christian, and then behave like an Armenian as you mature.” I love this.

    Xavier

  14. ChrisB says:

    It has always bothered me that I tend to overthink everything. I thought it meant my faith was weak. Since receiving ODB and reading Matt’s commentaries, I am comforted that so do many others. It helps me to believe my salvation isn’t based on different doctrines or views, but on Christ and the price He paid for me at Calvary. Which ever way it came, I was drawn to Christ and I am very thankful. Does this clarify (in my heart) the distinction between Calvinist and Armenian? No! But it does help assure me that I am saved.

  15. InHisHands says:

    Well said, Steve. You put into words all the very thoughts that were in my mind after reading today’s post. Praise the LORD that Christ is the very picture of how to share the Gospel – no fear, not worried about offending, just giving the Word, and allowing the Holy Spirit the unction to do the rest.

  16. Hisgirl4life says:

    Would God hold us accountable for something He has not given us the ability to do? That’s a great question, Mart. Applying that to faith, hope and love is also a worthy and excellent topic to discuss and ponder.

    In Exodus, chapter 18, Moses is overwhelmed with his leadership role God has called him to. His wise father-in-law replies, “What you are doing is not good. You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out. The work is too heavy for you; you cannot handle it alone….you must be the people’s representative before God and bring their disputes to him…have them bring every difficult case to you; the simple cases they can decide themselves. If you do this…you will be able to stand the strain.”

    Could it be God was giving each of us a reminder that we are utterly dependent upon Him? This world is broken, beginning with our sinful hearts. Broken people, broken because of the fall in the garden. Yet He calls us as his disciples to be His feet, His hands, His voice, His heart, His love. He will never call us to go where He has not already traveled, speak within our own feeble-minded strength, do or participate in what He is not capable of accomplishing in and through us. He seeks to gain glory to Himself through our lives, all of our faith, hope and love. “I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” (Exodus 9:16).

    What if He found us faithfuland willing as Mary in Luke “I am the Lord’s servant?”, even when we felt discouraged, disappointed, beaten down, wounded, fearful, sick, unworthy? Would that in itself be a spirit-filled miracle of God’s grace and love for a broken world? Bring great glory to His mission?

    I am often reminded His precious word that He alone administers the strength to press on, the faith to believe, and the hope to share with others. Looking to myself, my abilities, my resources, my desires will never be enough. My shortcomings will always surface. It is only when I leave the results and outcomes to God(where they rightfully belong), that I can enjoy peace, fellowship with others and contentment, despite circumstances beyond my control, even amidst a very broken world.

    May God grant us the eyes to see Him in every moment, every trial and every person and enable us the ability to open our hearts and hands fully to be used by Him. Then, as we walk in obedience, may His name become famous and glorified in all the earth.

  17. poohpity says:

    I think Paul said it best in 1 Corinthians 1 that Christ did not intend for us to argue among ourselves and follow any but Christ. Is it Christ who causes division among us? So do you follow Calvin, Arminius, Apollos, Paul, Mart, Steve or whoever. Did any of them die on the cross for you? So whether or not we are predestined or foreknew by God it is not something that should cause division. It is hard enough for us to remain as one and do the work Christ has set before us that arguing over doctrine takes away time from that which is really important.

    Does it hurt someone in anyway to hold so tight to a belief that it pushes someone away from Christ? I think that should be the question. We argue so much within the body who would want to join in on our disputes. That is why it is so important to know about God through His word then that should spur us to good works rather than vain conceit.

  18. Hisgirl4life says:

    That is a good reminder, Pooh. We all need to ask ourselves, “Is it more important to be right, or to be a grace-filled vessel, empowered with the super-natural love of God; one that He can use for His glory?” Justification of oneself can lead us into a prideful and rebellious state that often destroys relationships and pushes others away.

  19. Lively says:

    I think we, as humans, tend to complicate some things far too much. To borrow a famous phrase, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    When you’re a parent, often your kids will accuse you of reading his or her mind. But, the truth is, we just know what they are going to do. If you look at these verses from a childs perspective, it’s possible to have free will and for it to be “preordained” – because God dictated what we would do, but because He knows what we will do. I certianly don’t step in everytime they are going to mess something up, or even if they are going to get hurt – all of us know, experience is one of the best teachers.

    When I read, “The LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear” (Deut 29:4 NKJ). I see that the Lord did not force Himself upon the people, He could have – but instead He gave them freewill.

    I think there is good reason Jesus told us to come as little children.

  20. poohpity says:

    Lively, I think Freud said some powerful things although he was really out to lunch, lol.

  21. Lively says:

    :-) Ahh, I strive to see the Lord as a child.

    I am partial to Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

    I use it a good deal when my kids are squabbling.

  22. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    This is such an emotive subject I would not even know how to reason it through.
    I agree with Steve in the fact God’s word is all inclusive in that His promises go out to all mankind. Yes He does “harden hearts”, as with Pharaoh, but that was to get the Hebrews to actually leave Egypt else they would still be there.
    We are all predestined and invited to look to Jesus and all that He has done for us.
    “Many are called but few are chosen” we all hear the call at some stage in our lives but few respond to that call.
    “Behold I stand at the door at and knock, if any man opens the door I will come in and dine with him.”
    Remember that famous painting that has the handle only on the inside. We make the choice because God has predestined the door, Jesus and the meal. When someone comes to dine with you it is usually by your invatation and because you want to get to know them and be friends.
    “Greater love has no man than this, that He should lay down His life for His friends. You are my friends!”
    The cross was predestined, as was the Resurrection.
    We were predestined as God knew us before we were born.

    No matter how you think about this there is only one fact that counts.
    I know that my redeemer lives!!

    Amen

  23. saled says:

    Mart, thank you for the teaching that you have done here today. I have a much clearer understanding of Calvinism and Arminianism than I did before. Like Dr. McGee would say, “You have put the cookies on the shelf where the children can reach them.” I’m sure we all can say amen to the prayer that you ended the post with.

  24. tandgmartin says:

    Good job, Mart.

  25. afranz says:

    Great posts! You guys are all much deeper thinkers than I am. My first thought was that Mr. Calvin and Mr. Arminius are in perfect agreement now, and not saying “I told you so!”
    When I try to imagine why God would even give me the chance to hear the gospel, and why He didn’t give up on me, I am blown away. Ps.86-15 “But You, O Lord, are a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering and abundant in mercy and truth.

  26. amandacl says:

    Quite apart from the issue under discussion, I found that the passage on Love (“Love—Without the love of God for those who disagree with us, all of the theology and logic in the world is the kind of noise that will push ourselves and others away from Christ rather than toward him.”)summed up precisely what needs to be said about the sad situation of disagreement amongst children of God. Thank you Mart!

  27. Becky M says:

    Does the creator not know His creation? As said above, parents know their children as to mind read what they will do. Yes, the cross and resurection were predestined. God has a plan. Who of you can make a plan without judging the outcome? Ok, God has told us that the wide road will hold many more than the narrow road. He wants us to take the cramped & narrow road. He has not given a list of personal names of who will find that narrow road,He has just told us that is the road to Him. And He’s told us it will be a hard journey,not an easy one. He reads our hearts and we will be accepted as we accept His will. And all this is done out of love. If He didn’t care or love us first, we would not even know Him or His plan for us. He leaves the choice to us. I know I’ve said what ya all have already said but I wanted to say it in my own words. This is really very simple,no complication. That’s why it’s hard for many to understand. We tend to not keep things simple. I have come to catch myself if I ask too many questions before I even get the answer to just one because IMO that is what makes it complicated. So, there again is trust in Jesus and follow what He says to the best of my ability. He will strengthen my ability on the journey if I have the faith in Him to do so. Wow, Mart, good thinking on this one. Thank you.

  28. foreverblessed says:

    Did some thinking on this subject, the calvinistic view, when taken to the negative is: How do you know that you are elected?
    While as I think, as soon as you wonder whether you are elected, you are elected, otherwise you would not wonder about it.
    So why not act on it, just step out and accept Christ as your Saviour. (I write this to all who are still wondering wether they are saved) Just believe in Jesus,
    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send his Son to comdemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

  29. SFDBWV says:

    In Greek and Roman mythology there existed three goddesses named, Clotho,Lachesis,and Atropos. They were know as the *Fates*

    They were thought to control human destiny and life.

    The human mind has always known there is a *Creator*. The human mind has constantly looked both inward and outward for this Creator and an explanation as to…why.

    Paul stood among the great deep thinkers in the courtyards of Athens on Mars Hill and brought the true explanation of creation and a warning of a coming day when God will judge the world, by *that man* whom He gave assurance unto *all* men, in that he raised Him from the dead (Acts 17:31).

    We have discussed many *tensions* (as Mart calls them). That seem to be opposites in scripture.

    I know of no greater example of opposites than to believe that *Fatalisim* is exercied by God’s will over the created gift of *Free Will*.

    To believe that our destinies are already cast in concrete. Places us in a position of doing nothing. For what would be the sense of it? Knowing that nothing we do or don’t do matters. Our lives already acting out a script pre written before we were born.

    We just as well go set on a rock and await death. Believing that too was preordained.

    No, God gave us life, that we might live it and live it abundantly. Living an abundant life does not mean we have an abundance of things. It means we live life to the fullest extent possible.

    God wanted us to live forever in a paradise created for us. He did not want us to fall. Though He knew we would. That doesn’t mean that He created the fall, a predestined desire of His will. It simplly means that the Sovereignty of God knows everthing.

    Knowing we would fall, God made a way for mankind to be restored to Him. That doesn’t mean that God’s will was for man to fall so He could save us. It means that when we fell, He would be there to save us.

    All men are called to salvation, it is up to any to accept it.

    Out of time…

    Steve

  30. Pilgrimhere says:

    Wow – waht a topic! As I watch all the epitaphs and labels being offered and passed around, I realize we try to wrap our minds around God’s mind…and we can’t. What is it about faith that says I have come as far as I personally can in understanding this and I entrust it back into your hands, Father. Having done that,now what do You want us as your children to do? Preach election to the lost? What moves the hearts of men and women to consider eternity, sin (as defined by the Creator in His Word)and the need for cleansing? Just like He did when walking here, that is what He wants us to do, interact with others and show them HIS salvation in a world of sin, injustice and hopelessness.

  31. poohpity says:

    So Steve are you saying that God did not create the fall?

  32. Lively says:

    That’s how I read what he said, Pooh. I agree with him, too. I don’t see how He could create the fall, it was the first sin – if He created the fall, then did He create sin? I don’t think so.

    But, that brings up a thorny question, as God did create everything how could He not have created sin? Man created sin – God created knowledge and allow free will, thus allowing sin to exist. Even though He knew it would separate us from Him. Knowing that, He first made the law and then gave us Jesus. He gave us opportunity to use knowledge wisely.

    I think free will is like a fire, used correctly; it will keep you warm, give you light and cook your food. But, if you use it wrong you’re liable to burn your house down, kill yourself and put everyone around you in danger.

    p.s. My son’s a lot better, ty again for your prayers.

  33. poohpity says:

    I believe that God wanted all to have a relationship with Him. I also believe that because God is all knowing He knew those that would choose Him. In the end God again knows that one day EVERY knee will bend and confess that Jesus is Lord. Everything we have from God even our faith is a gift from Him, even our knowledge. Realizing that God is the author of everything we then can take no glory or boasting because how can one take credit for gifts that are given to us. It has nothing to do with us it has to do with an unfailing love from our Glorious God. It is nothing we can earn it all is given out of Love. So the position that is needed is open hands, open heart and a contrite spirit on bended knees.

  34. Lively says:

    Pooh – Amen.

  35. kingsdaughter says:

    If a child comes to Christ at a young age, 7 or 8 yrs. old…even though they do not fully understand their own coming but have been prompted by the “call”…are they eternally saved? My children were raised in the Baptist faith and there is always the invitation at the end of the service. When my youngest was just 12 we started worship at the Methodist church (doctrine did not play a part in our change)but there has never been an invitation at the end of the service. I have seen very few baptisms of adults there. I have attended for 15 years.

    I am glad to know that Christianity is simple. It is complicated by man and the doctrines created from the different scriptures. I agree with the posts here and have done my own self study (I know, I know) of Calvinism this past year. One of my favorite pastors wrote “In Defense of Calvinism” by Charles Spurgeon. It is my understanding that the whole thinking is based on God’s grace. That God has instilled in us a certain amount of faith already or else in our broken state we would never come…that we as sinners don’t even realize we need a savior. So back to my question: if a child comes in childlike faith to Jesus it can’t be that he knows he is a sinner….I think a child comes on just that, FAITH…that innate faith (meaning He chose us first) put there by God. Anyone….my very humble opinion….

    this is such a timely topic for me, personally. Thank you, Mart.

    dale

  36. foreverblessed says:

    Yes Pooh, amen too. Thanks that your little son is better, a fever with little children, is uneasy.

    Rdrcomp, I agree that the question asked here is the wrong one: ”Would God hold us accountable for something that He has not given us the ability to do?”
    I think Mart puts the question because many wonderabout it. If we think like this than we are like the man with the one talent.
    Matthew 25:24 “Then the man who had received the one talent came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

    I always found Gods reaction to this man quite harsh. v26-30. But then God probably deals with us as we deal with Him, if we are not humble and meek.
    As you judge so you will be judged Romans 2:1-4.

    But be happy with that what you have received, salvationthrough faith in Christ!

  37. foreverblessed says:

    Kingsdaughter, I think you are right, the child comes in faith, I was like that, the conscience of me being a sinner came later, and could even still come deeper.

    Today I heard a story of a man who comes preaching in churches here in our country. He was not a believing christian, but his mother had always prayed for him. He had died and he saw Christ and accepted Jesus, everything was allright, then he was given a choise by Jesus, weather he would stay in paradise or would go back to earth. He answered: I want to go back, I want to tell my mother that everything is allright with me. And now he is here, and telling the good news of being saved through faith in Jesus.
    Keep up Kingsdaughter, we think of you.

    (I was happy with this story, as I saw the video 23 minutes in hell that someone here mentioned, and that unsettled me. This is going out of topic, but both stories are true.)

  38. poohpity says:

    foreverblessed, it is not my son but the son of Lively who was sick.

    kingsdaughter,
    I accepted Christ at nine. When I was in Africa more than 50 children understood that they had sinned and had accepted Christ they were between the ages of 8 and 14. So I am hopeful that they all understood what they were doing. The younger ones realize when they do things wrong because they are taught what wrong is, hopefully. What one does with that salvation later in life well that is something different but I do not feel that they loose their salvation but I could be wrong. I think it was because of my accepting Christ when I was young that I was guarded through my 21 years of substance abuse but some others died. The one thing I did not know was that one could have a very personal relationship with Christ because I was never taught that.

  39. Lively says:

    Dale, I was 10 when I asked for Jesus to be my saviour. It was all because there were no cartoons on the tv on Sunday morning, only religions programs, and it had a puppet show. I didn’t really understand what I was asking for, but I did know that I wanted what those people on tv had. I believe that was one of the most pure prayers I’ve ever prayed.

    I grew up in the Episcopalian church, I never learned about being saved. I’d no clue that I was a “born again” until I was in my late 30’s.

    And, yes – I do believe I was eternally saved from the moment I invited Him into my life. I didn’t understand, but I did know.

  40. SFDBWV says:

    Pooh, No in my opinion God did not *create* the fall of man. In the sense that He wanted it to happen.

    However, had it been God’s will that man not fall, who or what could have won out over God’s *sovereign* will?

    From the begining He placed temptation in the Garden, by puting the tree of knowledge and evil there. Giving both Adam and Eve the choice to obey Him or not, by not eating of it.

    Thus creating the opportunity for the fall. Placed squarely on Adam and Eve’s *free will*.

    So it looks as if either the free will of God’s creation has pre emptive control over God’s sovereign will. Or God allows for His will to be disobeyed. In the short run.

    Steve

  41. poohpity says:

    God placed temptation in the garden? Then what does Matthew 4:1; “Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.” mean to you? So you are saying that God who is Holy also gives us temptation to go against everything He stands for? Or does God allow us to be tempted by the devil? The ability to go against everything that is good which is of God or to choose evil which is also from God? Or was it the consequence of one rebelling against God to sin?

  42. poohpity says:

    So if we choose to follow God it is alright to do evil because it is also from God?

  43. keepsmiling says:

    As foreverblessed mentioned John 3:16-17, Jesus says EVERYONE who believes in will not perish but have eternal life. And continuing on to v. 18, he says those who do NOT trust Him have already been judged for not believing in Him. I as many others was raised in a strict Pentecostal type upbringing. We were NEVER sure of our salvation. But then I started searching out the Word for myself & came across this scripture. I then discovered that man was given a FREE will by God that NO one, not even God, can tamper with. He uses His Holy Spirit to woo men to Him. (& after we accept Him as Savior, He uses the Holy Spirit to prompt & lead us through our walk with God), but when God created mankind, He put into them a FREE will, that is why He told them NOT to eat of the fruit, and she DISOBEYED & gave to her husband who was with her. There again, FREE WILL.

  44. SFDBWV says:

    Pooh, Who placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden?
    Genesis 2:9 ” And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”

    Genesis 2:16 “And the Lord God commanded the man,saying,Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat.” :17 “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

    Genesis 3:6 “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”

    Eve was tempted by what she saw, and she desired it. This is temptation.

    What other purpose do you think God placed this tree in the garden for?

    This one command from God was for they to not eat of this tree. And he gave them the choice to either obey or not.

    However this tree was pleasant to the eyes and a desire. If God had made the tree unpleasant to the eyes and undesireable would it have been as much of a temptation?

    Do you think God made a mistake? Do you think God didn’t know the outcome of the encounter? Do you believe that the devil placed the temptation in the garden?

    Jesus was tempted by Satan so that He (Jesus) could overcome temptation as a man. Unlike Eve who caved into getting her way, at any cost. Being led by the devil to do so.

    As to your last comment. don’t be misled yourself. It is never alright to disobey God.

    Steve

  45. Lively says:

    Steve,

    Unfortunately, God’s will isn’t alawys done on this earth. That why, in my family at the end our bible study prayers we always add, Your will first. I think one thing that Christians do very differently (at least we try to) is willingly submit to His will even when it goes against our own.

    The way I understand it, God didn’t put sin in the garden, he put knowledge. Knowledge isn’t a sin – but how we use that knowledge could be sinful. For example, being naked wasn’t a sin – but when Adam and Eve gained knowledge they perceived it as being “wrong” therefore they covered themselves. Nothing changed except thier perception of being naked, they contorted something that was good into something that was wrong. God had nothing to do with that.

    I would also add, it seems that even the Angels got some free will – otherwise there wouldn’t be fallen angels.

    I believe, in this way God allows us to choose who’s will prevails.

  46. SFDBWV says:

    Lively, Yes it is always Gods will be done. Our prayers also end and begin in this way.

    The sin that was commited in the garden was disobediance to God.

    You are correct it couldn’t have been a sin for Adam and Eve to be naked. As God placed them there that way. Yet God properly *covered* their nakedness by the blood sacrifice of animals, so as to make clothes for them. Prophesy of the coming blood sacrifice of Christ to cover the sins of all mankind.

    Without the tree of Knowledge being placed there in the garden. The entire *calamity* of the fall of man could not have happened. As it did.

    But because the tree was there, there was also a choice given to Adam and Eve. To obey or not to obey. It was as I read it the only rule given them. From God.

    After they chose their own will over God’s, then the concequence of their actions are what we know of as the *curse*

    They had free will, even before the fall. Evil had to exist before the fall. Other wise what would be the purpose of a tree that gave the knowledge of something that yet did not exist?

    Steve

  47. SFDBWV says:

    In Genesis 3:1 God says that the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

    In the Concordance the word subtil is explained as “cunning in a bad sense”.

    God cursed the serpent for his part in the misadventure. Where did the evil that was in the serpent come from? Was it the presense of Satan? Why then was he allowed in the garden? Where did the evil that is in Satan come from? Why is it that Satan must always obey God’s orders? Would it be because God controls Satan?

    Was the whole of creation out of God’s control? Is anything ever out of God’s control?

    Much to learn here about Who God is and the *soverengity* of God. As well as the allowed power of *free will* a gift from God.

    Steve

  48. Mart De Haan says:

    Posted this believing that if we have the sovereignty of God right it will be an incentive to gratefulness and trust… and that the same thing could be said about a right understanding of our will/choice…

    If our understanding of either detracts from our confidence in God or his goodness– then we can be sure that we have something wrong…

    Am on the road today. Spent day in JFK airport after missing a flight last night. Hope to get out tonight and that next post will be from Israel. Am scheduled to work with our group on several more Bible Lands programs. Thanks to all of you for your interest and willingness to share thoughts and lives…

  49. Lively says:

    Some thoughts on your post, Steve.

    I’m out of my depth – I think. But, here it goes.

    Yes, evil had to exist before Adam and Eve. That’s born out by you reminding me that the snake was in the garden and that the tree was the knowledge of good and evil. Two things, can good exist without evil?
    Can you truly have free will if you don’t know the difference? In my opinion, no.

    My turn to be out of time! With any luck, I’ll be able to post my other thoughts later. My little one still has that darn fever, but not as bad as yesterday.

    Safe travels, Mart.

  50. poohpity says:

    I think without Genesis 3:5 the rest is taken out of context. Satan’s desire it seems was pride to become a god although not stated in scripture that is the jest of his fall. Which is the same thing that he (satan/serpent) also tempted Adam and Eve with to become like God. The same way Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. God never wanted separation from His creation but because of free will they desired the pride of becoming like God. The tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil which had they not been tempted by the serpent it seems like they may have never ate from that tree. The tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil was not the tree of good and evil it is the opening of knowing what is right and wrong. As Paul put it if there is no law to break then we are free to do the will of God. At that time the will of God was to walk and talk with the humans that He created in a beautiful garden with everything they needed for life and usefulness.

    If I believed for one minute that God manipulated man kind by creating evil it would not be a God I would want to worship. The God I worship uses or allows evil to bring about good. I do not think He would ever create something to cause harm to anyone or to push people away from Him. That would detract me from the confidence in God and His goodness.

  51. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Nearly 7AM and I am just off to work Pooh, so not much time.
    I agree with you that God did not manipulate man by creating evil, but Steve would be the first to quote that verse about God creating evil(that I can’t remember off hand). It seems “All things work together for good to them that love God.”
    God had to Manipulate and coerse His people throughout history, otherwise the blood line to Jesus would never have come about. Or maybe it would have been a different route to the cross, who knows.
    I think we have complete freedom to chose and as God can see all time before Him he then weaves His plan along with us.
    eg. Abraham and Sarah had Ishmail. Not really in God’s plan, but God looked after Ishmail etc.
    Many other stories of God using our mistakes and second choices etc.
    Have to Go!
    Lucky Mart, off to Isreal :-)
    Bob

  52. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Israel, sorry

  53. SFDBWV says:

    What sets we Christians apart from all other religions is the person of Jesus Christ.

    Christ overcame the world. He never gave in to temptation, Christ defeated sin, and even the curse of death placed upon mankind.

    Jesus showed a nature of God that the Hebrew scholars overlooked in their search for God in the Book.

    Jesus showed a servant God, a God who didn’t require sacrifices from His children but instead sacrificed Himself.

    Jesus through His witness and by way of the Holy Spirit, opened up the written word and all who believed in and on Him. He granted and still grants eternal salvation through Him.

    We are called Christians because we belong to Christ.

    The Jew still worships the same God we do, but without Christ. The Musilim worships the same God as do we, without Christ.

    Without Christ they are lost.

    Way up top in the opening remarks made by Mart, it was explained that God witheld knowledge from some. Thoes people never able to understand because God Himself did not want them to understand, at that time.

    Were they held accountable for what God did not let them know? In their hearts or minds?

    God has a purpose in every action He does, and He is no respector of man.

    The Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

    We can hide safely under His wings, because of Jesus Christ. Not because of anything we know, just because like little children we simply trust Jesus Christ to be who He said He is and what He promised. Trust and obey.

    Steve

  54. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, wishing you a safe and prosperous journey. Keep us posted on you activities, like last year.

    Steve

  55. Becky M says:

    I also think that God doesn’t want to be worshiped by those who really don’t want to worship Him anyway. He doesn’t want to be a dictator. He loves all of His creation(And God saw it was good). Steve,I agree with what you had to say on the subject. Mart,praying for you and your staff safty you all go.

  56. jam200 says:

    God’s foreknowledge is for Him alone. We don’t know, but God calls us to act. To present the gospel to all, for 1 Timothy states “God desires that all be saved.” I was raised Catholic and accepted Christ in my mid twenties. So I never was involved with the Calvin vs. Arminius discussion. God’s grace is larger than all of that. Praise Him for giving us the opportunity to pursue Him and not worry about whether we are in His foreknowledge. That’s an answer we’ll find out in Heaven.

  57. SFDBWV says:

    Why didn’t the Jewish leaders of Israel recognize the Christ when He appeared? They missed their day.

    They were the keepers of God’s Holy Word. They had prophets who had given them all the information they needed, to expect The birth of Christ.

    The Gentile Magi had access to the same information, and they knew where and when Christ would be born. As well as the fact that He would be “cut off”.

    Why didn’t the Jewish priests know this information?

    God gives us two explanations. The first explained by Mart above. God did not give them eyes to see, ears to hear, nor hearts to understand.

    The other explanation is that they looked for the conquring King, who would restore Israel and defeat all of her foes.

    Not a low born commoner, who did not want to be crowned King…

    Either explanation, Christ held them accountable for the fact that they missed the day of their visitation. That they also had not taught the people the truth of scripture.

    In Jesus’s instruction to the masses, He showed the example of the Land owner who sent messengers to the workers only to have the workers kill the messengers.

    Of course the messengers were His prophets.

    When the land owner sent His son, the workers killed Him also.

    The son is of course Jesus.

    Jesus explained this so that the people could understand what had happened with all the information God had sent to them, and what would happen to Him.

    All the information could be found in the written word. But the reader had to look for the truth, not for just what they wanted to see. In order to be fully informed.

    No matter where you are at your own personal level with God. Remember that God is supreme and all of creation under His control.

    That He loves you enough to alter His eternal position, become a lowly man, and sacrifice Himself so that you may not have to pay the penalty for disobedience.

    That by believing in and on Jesus, you may have eternal salvation and a heavenly home awaiting you.

    Hold on to what you know. Rev 2:25

    Steve

  58. pegramsdell says:

    Praying you have a safe trip Mart.

  59. phpatato says:

    I have been reading what Steve and Pooh have been writing. I find myself siding with Steve on the matter. I did go researching and found an article which explains, God’s sovereignty and man’s free will, quite nicely. Quickly summarized it says that God has absolute sovereignty over everything He created. He is to be obeyed. He has a plan for the universe and it is achieved either through using His power to produce an intended effect, or with His permission.

    “””God has one plan, in which He used His ability to be fully aware of past, present and future simultaneously. He saw it all at once, and He ordained it all at once. God’s plan included the decision to:
    Create all – including angels and all humans;
    Permit the fall – of both Satan and his angels, and Adam;
    Provide salvation – for all people (John 1:29);
    Elect some (those who believe), and leave in just condemnation those who do not believe (John 1:11-13);
    Apply salvation – to all who believe (John 5:24).

    Whatever He permits, He also intends to regulate and use ultimately to bring about wise and great purposes of His own. He permitted sin in the light of what He knew would be the nature of sin, or what sin would do to the creature, and of what He would have to do if He was to save anyone.

    Sin was permitted, but God did not cause or necessitate it. This is demonstrated by:
    The threatenings of punishment for sin (Gen 2:17; Ex 34:7; Ecc 11:9; 2 Thess 1:7-8). Punishment for sin implies personal responsibility.
    The declarations of the psalmist (Psa 78:29-31; 106:15).
    The statements of Paul (Acts 14:16; 17:30-31).
    The holy character of God that separates Him from all sin (Lev 11:44; Heb 12:10).

    The Bible says that the unregenerate are energized by Satan (Eph 2:2) and that God works in the regenerate (Phil 2:2). Yet the individual is not conscious of any necessity being imposed upon him. Therefore human choice of both good and evil originates within the person’s own will; it is free in the sense that he is conscious only of his own freedom of action.

    Much perplexity remains as to the precise way that the individual’s part and God’s part in salvation relate. Yet it is clear that God’s influence on the unsaved must be exercised if they are ever going to turn to Him in saving faith (John 6:44; Rom 3:23-26; Eph 2:8-9).

    HOW DO WE KNOW THAT GOD FREES MAN’S WILL SO HE CAN TURN TO GOD?
    The exhortations to turn to God (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Matt 18:13; Acts 3:19).
    The exhortations to repent (I Kings 8:47; Matt 2:3; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38).
    The exhortations to believe (II Chr 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31).
    The exhortations to obey (Acts 5:32; II Thess 1:8; Heb 5:9).””””

    Author: Paul E. Eymann, distinguished Professor of Bible

    This pretty much sums it all up for me anyway…..

    Pat

  60. SFDBWV says:

    Pat and Becky, Thank you both.
    Pat, I think you summed it up very well.

    We had 43.5 inches of snow for the first 12 days of January. But thankfuly the January thaw is coming this week. That is 100.5 inches of snow so far this season.

    This could be one of the reasons West Virginia is called “Little Switzerland”.

    Steve

  61. poohpity says:

    So you guys believe God created evil? You also believe that God tempted Adam and Eve in the garden by placing the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil? If that is what you believe I guess that is the kind of God you worship and that is OK by me.:-) I choose to believe differently. It is not about being right or wrong it is about the character of God.

    Bob in Cornwall
    It is one passage Isaiah 45:7.

  62. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Thanks Pooh, I have noted that one down on my desktop.

  63. poohpity says:

    Steve, you asked, “Why didn’t the Jewish leaders of Israel recognize the Christ when He appeared?” I think it was their pride. Just like in the OT folks thought they could do things on their own and did not listen to the prophets God sent with His word. As far as Muslims worshiping the same God that is another question.

    Back on topic I am so glad we are not puppets being controlled by a Superior being but being allowed to choose who we will follow. Think of it, if the person you love is forced to be with you rather than a desire to stay with you because of love and longing. I think that is the difference in Sovereignty and free will.

  64. poohpity says:

    Your welcome Bob, but please do not use it out of the context in which it was written. Read all of Isaiah.

  65. Hisgirl4life says:

    Enjoy a safe and blessed trip, Mart!

    Very interesting posts. Thank you for your post Pat and Steve. I too agree that God is sovereign, and even though we all have free will, his will WILL be accomplished in our lives and in the lives of others. He does not want to lose anyone of us.

    Charles Stanley once said in a sermon, “God is responsible for the obedience of our hearts. We are responsible for the disobedience.”

    My heart breaks over the photos and events from Haiti and the shattered images of lives broken and torn apart. Yet, in the midst of all the images, a concrete cross with the image of Christs remains standing untouched.

    We may not understand God’s sovereignty. His ways. His plan. We struggle at making sense of all the tragedies and trials of this world. We can, however, choose to trust and have hope in God’s sovereignty and His promise that “ALL things will work to good to those who believe and are called according to his purpose.” (Romans 8:28). And we can choose to LOVE the unlovable, FORGIVE the unforgivable and extend GRACE to those who seem undeserving. Christ died for all, for all sin. Let’s join together to lift up Haiti and all those arriving to help to extend the hands, feet and love of Christ.

  66. Hisgirl4life says:

    Pooh, love your comment about free will and sovereignty as God does not force us to love him. That is why the verse in Revelation, “I stand at the door and knock…” is so powerful. He will not force himself upon anyone, even though he has the sovereign power to do just that.

  67. Lively says:

    I think we’re all looking at this wrong. This has been bugging me all day, so I started rambling away talking to God as I was folding laundry. This is what struck me:

    How are we know God’s mind?? We’re looking at the through our eyes, not His! We’re trying to understand the mind of God in attempting to figure this out. It’s all conjecture of what He was thinking/planning/doing at the time of creation!

    Thank you, God – that I don’t need to understand – I just have to have faith that no matter what the “right” answer is, it was a just and right decision on Your part, because I have full faith in You.

    Back to laundry – and Steve, I’ll wave to you across the hills – I’m in VA tucked in the little corner near MD and the WV line :-)I’ve a great view of the Blue Ridge Mountain!

  68. Rajnesh says:

    Looking back, I was exposed to or subconsciously given a “choice” the day my folks enrolled me to attend a Catholic school and shortly there after I exercised “freewill”.
    To the best of my recollection there were no mandatory rules, that non-Catholics/Christians MUST partake in the daily prayers, going to the chapel and the significant Christian occasions on the calendar. As time went on I chose to do these things because I wanted to. As time went on I embraced Christianity more than Hinduism.
    Fast forward to about 40 or so years and I got baptised and accepted Lord Jesus, who died on the Cross for my sins, as my Saviour.

    Glory be to our Saviour!…….Amen!

  69. poohpity says:

    Lively it may be wrong to believe that but I do not think God had anything to do with creating evil or temptation because I can not with all my heart believe that God wanted to create His own adversary. He did create the being but it was in that being to rebel against God, did God know that this would happen, Yes. Can God use it to benefit mankind, Yes. God knew that He could turn it around because that is the kind of wonderful God we have and He allowed all of creation to have free will.

  70. Hisgirl4life says:

    Lively, you are right that nobody can truly know God’s mind. God, however, has given us his Holy Spirit to live within us…to convict, to purify, to direct, to advise. “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” (John 14:26).

    God’s word is truth, living and alive, however as we’ve discussed on this blog before, God is able to speak to his children through whatever vessel or means he chooses. Yes, we can make a choice to disobey, or not listen. When we align ourselves with his Word, by the power of his transforming spirit that lives within us, He will bring about the conviction and discernment to hear his will within our lives.

    Yes, we all make mistakes, sometimes listening to the lies of Satan who sits dancing upon our shoulders. God’s grace renews us, not holding our sin against us. It is our mind that cannot wrap itself around his will. Peace comes from knowing we are in step with him…a “peace that passes all understanding” in decisions, direction, actions. Love the verse in Romans: “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then, you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.” (Romans 12:2).

    Sending this with a prayer for your little one…

  71. SFDBWV says:

    Stacey, we are neighbors…great!!

    For a while my son and I worked in Winchester, until his unfortunate auto wreck. I love the Valley.

    I also have family living in Martinsburg and Harpers Ferry.

    It would be great if you can come see us sometime. Bayard is just accross the Potomac River from Garrett county MD. You and your family are welcome anytime.

    Steve

  72. phpatato says:

    Wow Steve you have a lot of snow. Not sure if I said this before but I remember in 1971 we had the heaviest snowfall season on record with 174 inches of snow. In the 2007/08 season we fell 4 inches short of that record. We average about 93 inches in a season. I am finding that we are getting more freezing rain though and maybe that’s because of global warming??? It is freezing drizzle outside now as I type. Give me the snow over freezing rain any day. What I am having trouble with is the long stretch without sun. From Dec 30 till just yesterday, I think we only saw the sun for 2 full days.

    Looking forward to some pictures from Israel Mart.

  73. Lively says:

    Pooh, that’s why I was having such a hard time with this thread, logically, I agree with Steve – but i agree with you too.

    At the start of the thread, I posted my favorite riddle – can God create a rock so large He can’t move it and then move it. It is a complete contridiction – but of course He can.

    We’re about 15 minutes from Harpers Ferry. That’d be fun… hmmm, did I mention I have 4 kids ranging from 14 to 2.5? lol We don’t “visit” as much as we decend lol.

    Stacy

  74. poohpity says:

    Lively I was not trying to be right and it is alright to not agree with the things I say. That is the reason I try and point people to read God’s word then they can find out the answers to those things on their own because sometimes only God can give us the answers we seek. It shows us about the character of God. Please never look to anything I say but search the scriptures for yourself and ask the Lord for wisdom because He is happy to give it. When you ask wait and He will show you. Love Deborah

  75. Lively says:

    Ahh, Deborah – I never take “man’s” word over God’s :-) And, I never thought you were pushing that you were right – you’re gently assertive about how you feel and I’ve yet to see you dismiss anyone elses opinion out of hand.

    These discusions have served to bring me closer to His word and you all have made me think about things I might not have thought of myself and question much more deeply than I have before.

    I prayed for this and He answered.

  76. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Stacey,
    I hope you and Steve do get together one day. I also would like to meet Steve as he seems to have a deep understanding of God’s word and Life. (I expect due a lot of suffering and hardsip)
    It would be nice if we could all meet up before that great day. I know a nice little fishing village in west Cornwall that would privide a great venue. lol
    Stacey… I too find it hard to follow some of the reasoning on here. I often agree with both Steve and Deborah, I think it is because we are looking at Jesus and the word from different perspectives. God reveals Himself in different ways to us all. Fundemental Truths never change, but sometimes we have a “season” where God is talking to us about a specific situation in our lives and we here something new and just for us in that day.
    It always amazes me that we seem so close in our fellowship here, yet are so far apart in both life experiences and distance. I think it has more to do with God than technology.
    Bob

  77. Lively says:

    Bob – My parents came from England :-) I’m actually the very first American in my family. My mom has very fond memories of holidays with her parents in Cornwall, and I have my own with my grandmother. So, I agree – Cornwall would be a great venue! lol

    Stacy

  78. kingsdaughter says:

    Hello all…I am reading and find myself agreeing with some of everything said. I must rely on my own enlightenment through God’s will, some things I never knew before my son’s death. His death defines me as I search the scriptures for meaning. I find myself agreeing with Steve most of the time. I don’t, however, believe that the Muslims serve the same God, though. How can they when they have a whole other book that stresses hatred and destruction of those who do not believe as they do.

    Free will? Yes, we do have that. I wish sometimes for my own sake that God would intervene and do His will. I pray for that now since my prayers before were specific according to how I wanted things to be.(that did not turn out as I had hoped and my disappointment has been more than devastating) Now, I must just do the trusting for His will that I probably never really allowed before.

    We are not allowed to know everything but it doesn’t hurt to have this discourse. Others stand to prosper in His Word when we all come together to “toss” around our own understandings. It seems all sides can present scripture to further their “case.” In my searching, I have found I must stay with the simple truth of salvation. As I grow, I know the vinedresser will prune according to His purpose.

    Bob in Cornwall…I love your country…I am a descendant of British, Irish, Scottish bloodlines…but then so are many American. LOL :)

    And Steve…you live in a place I fantasized about as a child. When we traveled to PA…my home state…from Florida, I thought Va. and W. Va. was where I would one day have a horse farm….and here I am…still in the flat lands of Florida. Life is never how we expect it to be.

    Good day and God bless you all.

    Dale

  79. ronilo says:

    “Would God hold us accountable what He has not given us the ability to do.”
    I think the answer would be yes, considering the ten commandments. Also the command for us to be holy. Inability seems not to be an excuse for us not to be held accountable not only for our action but for our being.
    For a child of disobedience to obey, and for one who is conceived in sin to be holy is an insurmountable task for man.
    But not so with God, for with God all things are possible. Salvation is of the Lord.

  80. dependent says:

    Isn’t it wonderful that understanding all of God’s ways isn’t a prerequisite for being adopted as His children?

    I believe it is wise to be mindful of the limits of our ability to comprehend the fullness of God as we enjoy probing and discovering the majesty surrounding these mysteries. It is a humble and contrite heart that can freely conclude, “my theology isn’t vast enough to fully resolve the mysteries of my Redeemer, nevertheless I know He loves me and I love Him.”

    I’m pretty sure that comprehending this fascinating topic would require a perspective that God alone enjoys. Namely, the fact that He is eternally present– the “I AM”. Our discussion is necessarily limited by the fact that we exist within the dimension of time.

    Could it be the case that the “opposing” scriptures that are traded on this topic would be fully in agreement in the context of a God whose plan is simultaneously working in our ‘past’, ‘present’ and ‘future’?

    OK…now to nurse my theological headache… ;-)

  81. Lively says:

    lol@dependent and your theological headache – I still have mine – makes me oh so glad God blessed us with men and women skilled at medicine.

  82. Effie says:

    Concerning the tenets of Calvin and Arminius, I don’t fully agree with either side, theologically. Each side holds to strange beliefs with which I totally disagree (e.g., the doctrine of individual election on one side, and the doctrine of losing salvation on the other). Notwithstanding that, though, with specific regard to the age-old arguments between Particular (or Individual) election (vis-à-vis, Predestination) and General (or Universal) election (vis-à-vis, Free Will), I have to agree with Arminius.

    There may be many passages of scripture that vaguely touch on the matter of election, which hard-line Calvinists twist and squeeze to defend their own view, but there are also many passages of scripture that very clearly touch on the matter of election, which Calvinists cannot argue against or intelligently explain (often relegating them to the proverbial, dusty shelf entitled “The mystery of God”) and which strongly support the other side’s opposing view. Without a doubt, the murky shadows of scriptural misinterpretation create quite the theological dilemma, as it does often appear that the scriptures contradict one another, especially in making the strong case for the doctrine of election.

    In light of this reoccurring problem, one must take great care to weigh the imprecise nature of some passages of scripture against the precise nature of other passages of scripture, so there is harmony of divine teaching throughout all scripture. One must measure the uncertainty of some passages of scripture against the certainty of other passages of scripture, so that all scripture stands together in one accord, without ever wavering, for the scriptures “cannot be broken.” (John 10:35)

    Cases in point (vague passages of scripture) used to defend the Calvinist view:

    John 6:44—No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Acts 13:48—Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

    Cases in point (clear passages of scripture) used to defend the Armenian view:

    2 Peter 3:9—The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    1 Timothy 2:3-4—For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    What is John 6:44 above saying? It is saying that not one person can willfully incline himself or herself to receive the gospel of Christ unless the Father (that is, the First Person of the Godhead) deliberately draws him or her. Calvinists love to use this verse to defend their “particular predestination” view of individual election, claiming that God draws believers out individually to salvation by election. But the Calvinist claim is a creative exaggeration of the truth! Yes, it is God who draws people, but God doesn’t just draw some people. God draws all people! Christ lends some light on this matter:

    John 12:32—And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

    You see, the “draw” to which Jesus refers in both John 6:44 and John 12:32 is exactly the same—it is a universal draw. What Jesus is saying is this: Without the cross, we are all without sail, without anchor, without hope. It is Love on the cross that draws people to Christ. Without the Way, not one can come to the knowledge of God. God, The Father, draws all people to Himself by way of the cross.

    However universal God’s call to the cross may be, though, not all people willfully choose to come to the cross! “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14) It is important to note there that the word “many” infers universal implication, much in the same way that the same word (“many”) infers universal implication in Romans 5:19, where it says: “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” Since Adam’s disobedience resulted in universal corruption (“many were made sinners”), so also Christ’s obedience resulted in universal election (“many will be made righteous”). Obviously, the word “many” in these passages can be replaced by the word “all” and still hold theological integrity. This being the case, one can render Matthew 22:14 another way: “For ALL are called, but few are chosen.” This translation would still hold complete theological agreement with John 12:32 above.

    Now, what is Acts 13:48 above saying? It is clearly saying that those who were appointed to salvation (eternal life) believed. But what is the verse implying? Calvinists would like to have us believe that only the elect of God who were predestined to salvation believed—that is, that only some of the people who heard the gospel that day believed. I very strongly disagree! What I believe the verse above in reality implies is this (to agree with all scripture): Since all people are appointed to eternal life, then all who heard the gospel that day believed. Not a single person rejected the gospel message. After all, we (that’s all of humanity) are all appointed to eternal life. Now, whether or not we, each make that divine appointment hangs on our individual choices, however. How do I know this?

    1 Thessalonians 5:9-10—“For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.”

    1 Peter 2:7-8—“Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,’ and ‘A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.’ They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.”

    The “us” in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is not limiting or particular in nature, referring only to the elect of God, as many mistakenly believe. No, the “us” is universal or general in nature, referring to all of humanity. God did not appoint humanity to wrath. Remember, Hell is an “everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41); it is not a place that God prepared for man.

    It is the accepting and loving and forgiving nature of God to appoint all of humanity to eternal life. After all, that implication would totally and completely agree with God’s not wanting any to perish, but for all to come to repentance, desiring “all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

    Regarding 1 Peter 2:8: Some misinterpret this verse, saying that those who dissented were appointed to dissent (i.e., those who stumbled were appointed to stumble), but that is not the case at all. In order for this verse to properly harmonize and totally agree with all of scripture, it must mean to say that those who reject the gospel message of Christ and stumble are being disobedient to the very word of salvation to which they were also appointed. In other words, even the dissenters were appointed by God to eternal life, but because they disregard their divine appointment with eternal life and reject the very word that would save them, they trip over the Rock and stumble in their disobedience.
    Then there’s the question of irresistible grace. This, then, leads to the $64 million question: Can man resist God? Theologically? No. Soteriologically? Yes. God’s divine plans for mankind cannot and will not be thwarted, but God’s plans for each and every man can be. How so? God voluntarily allows His divine plans as such to be. What do I mean? Well, God limits His infinite power at the heart of man. Whereas God possesses the absolute power to force us all to believe, He chooses to limit His power, so that we willfully choose to believe. God gives room to free will. The bible supports this claim:

    Matthew 23:37—O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

    Imagine that! Christ (God in the flesh) clearly admits that His covenant people (Israel) resisted His divine plans to gather His children together. God was willing, but they “were not willing!” Apparently, God’s grace can be sufficiently resisted by the free will of man. God allows it. Want more proof?

    Luke 7:30—But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

    Acts 7:51—You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

    Calvinists would like to believe that we are incapable of initiating any sort of meaningful relationship with God, and they would be absolutely right. Even scripture firmly substantiates this claim:

    Romans 3:10-12—As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.”

    Calvinists would also like to believe that we are incapable of responding to the gospel message on our own, and again they would be right. Even scripture firmly substantiates this claim:

    Acts 16:14—Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

    Obviously, Lydia needed God’s help to properly respond to the gospel. Nevertheless, take notice of her heart’s inclination. She was already worshipping God in some fundamental, rudimentary way. She was obviously inclined to God before God opened her heart. Why? The universal call of God, of course!

    However universal the call of God on the wayward heart of men, free men can still voluntarily resist the hand of God. Men, after all, do have the free will to resist God. And if man willfully resists the manifold grace of God, man’s heart can and will be subsequently hardened and darkened through unbelief.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4—But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

    Calvinists believe that since sinners are completely dead and spiritually lifeless in their depravity and incapable of responding spiritually to God’s divine call, God must first regenerate the heart of the elect BEFORE the elect can ever come to Christ. To the Calvinist, regeneration is first done by God, and then the regenerate person responds to the irresistible grace of God in belief.

    Ephesians 1:13—In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

    However varied the opinion of men, though, the truth contained in the biblical record is unwavering truth. God’s word doesn’t lie. If one verse of scripture seems to imply something that is clearly contradicted in another verse of scripture, then obviously what is thought to be implied in the former is clearly rejected by the latter. One must then rethink the implication of the former interpretation.

    Nevertheless, regarding God’s divine plan for salvation: Is it particular or general? There is no doubt that the scriptures teach that God’s divine plan was to save all men, not just a few.

    1 Timothy 4:10—For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

  83. poohpity says:

    Effie, Thank you for the lesson very detailed and spot on. I love it when truth is told, it makes one’s heart glad. :-)

  84. theleastamongyou says:

    Effie,
    Your analysis was thorough and perspicuous of biblical knowledge. You used scripture to effectively build your premise and defend your position. Impressive work!! We need more thought-provoking entries such as yours as we seek greater, more profound understanding of the scriptures! Thanks!

  85. jesuslover says:

    Hell will not be empty. Otherwise you have made God a liar.

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