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A Foolishness that is Off the Charts

A proverb of the Bible says,

“Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him” (Prov 26:12).

Of Proverbs 26:12, an often “heady” Word Biblical Commentary says,“This is an astounding proverb. Are there degrees of folly? And is there a degree of folly that is simply off the graph? And can this folly be that of the sage who would lay claim to wisdom? These questions would seem to be justified, even implied, by v 12.”

Yet the same inspired book of Proverbs also says, “Happy is the person who finds wisdom, and the one that gets understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things you can desire are not to be compared unto her” (Prov 3:13-15).

Seems to me that, at the very minimum, this is saying that we are foolish to value any material possession more than wisdom—and even more foolish to pursue wisdom in a way that causes us to feel proud of what we think we know.

Apparently there is a way of pursuing wisdom that deepens our realism.

Would love to hear a discussion of how we can pursue knowledge, understanding and wisdom without developing an inflated sense of our insight in the process.

For openers, would committing ourselves to a “spirituality” and “theology of listening” move us in the right direction?

For example would:
Listening to God to the point of realizing that we were made to know him– but that– at the most– whatever we know of him is like first grade in school (Isa 40:25-31; Isa 55:8-9).

Listening to our own heart to the point of realizing that “knowing ourselves” is essential to understanding our own motives– but that– at the most– what we can know of our own hearts is that they are far more self-deceiving than we could ever measure (Jer 17:9).

Listening to one another to the point of understanding how quick we are to jump to the wrong conclusions– but that– at the most– what we can know about one another is like agreeing to hold up flashlights to our own faces in the dark.

Listening to wise counselors to deal with difficult issues is safer than going on our own instincts– but that– at the most– many wise counselors show us how much we need to depend on the Lord for his leading, provision, insight, and protection…. to avoid the blindness of being “wise in our own eyes” (Prov 11:14; Prov 3:5-7).


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96 Responses to “A Foolishness that is Off the Charts”

  1. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    “The Fear of The Lord is the begining of Wisdom!”
    Proverbs 1:7
    What else is there to say on this subject?

    In verse 9 of Psalm 19, we read that “the fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever.”

    Surely this is Wisdom and the only kind that will last.
    All other self pronounced wisdom/pride/knowledge will pass away.

    Phil:2:12 Amplified Bible
    ….work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (selfdistrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).

    Just a thought!
    Bob

  2. foreverblessed says:

    Since Bob started of with Philippians 2:12 , I will continue there, because it says as a title for v 1-11: Imitating Christ’s humility (NIV). Very very very humble He was. If anyone could have been wise in His own eyes it could have been Jesus, since He had created all things. He put the heavens in place, put the sun on a spot, and let the earth circle somewhere around it. Who of us could say that we did that? Some may have built a bridge, or a building. Some have studied the skye, but who of us has made it?
    And then He does what is written in v8, the chore of all what had to be done for us.

    Isn’t He our example in humility?

  3. refump says:

    Wisdom is one of those things that when we think we have it we don’t & when we don’t think we have it we do! Speaking of wisdom, wasn’t King Solomon considered the wisest man on earth & his life certainly didn’t end on a high note proving the danger of “developing an inflated sense of our insight” as Mart warned. Also, Mart made the comment, “we are foolish to value any material possession more than wisdom—and even more foolish to pursue wisdom in a way that causes us to feel proud of what we think we know”. Seems to me this is a piece of that “FLESH” Paul says we struggle against. Although the “FLESH” is more often associated with “ugly” behavior it can also manifest itself in “religious” or “moral living” admired by others. Paul gives a definition of “FLESH” in Phil 3:4-6 when he talks about all the thing he could put his confidence in that we often look to in foolishness for our sense of identity. Paul says in I Cor.1:26 “Consider your calling brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble”.

  4. Lively says:

    I often wonder how “high profile” Christians keeps his or her humility. We’re taught not to touch God’s Glory – yet often these people are the epitome of God’s Glory. Obviously, not all can do it – as we’ve seen many high profile crash and burn examples. I often think of these great men and women as “conduits” of His Power, how tempting it must be to give in and take some of the credit for oneself.

  5. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, thank you, thank you, thank you. I have had a couple of very rough weeks, and needed a good laugh.

    How to gain wisdom, without getting the *Big Head*?

    I’m still very busy so I will chuckle about this today and get back to every one this afternoon, maybe.

    Steve

  6. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Steve, only after you wrote that you had a big laugh, I went back to Mart’s topic what exactly I had missed, and yes, it really is a good laugh!

  7. poohpity says:

    Wow, Mart, good one. I believe sometimes if people really understood that gaining wisdom can be very painful. It would be nice if we learned things by just reading history and learning from it but that is not the case for most. We learn by being burnt or experiencing tough circumstance and in those times we learn to depend on God not on our own cleverness.

    I am reminded of Paul. The Lord revealed much to him and anyone else may have gotten a superior attitude but the Lord in His ultimate wisdom gave him a thorn in the flesh so he would not be conceited. 2Cor 12:6-8.
    So one would be lead to believe if the Lord has opened up their eyes to much spiritual things then there is going to be something that will keep us humble. It will then be the Lord we depend on and not of our own strength or knowledge but God’s ALONE.

  8. saled says:

    More than one person on this blog has mentioned that as they get older, the more they realize what they don’t know. Echoing what refump said above, when we think we have wisdom, we don’t.

    My husband and I are into books, and so often we have read a new book and said ah ha, this is it, this is the answer to life. But it wasn’t. Soon there would be a new book and a new answer. This reading tended to puff us up and make us think we had superior knowledge. Kind of like the superior attitude that we had as members of a conservative church. We were told that we had been blessed with the truth, that most others, such as those who observed Ash Wednesday this week, were in error. We were wise in our own eyes. It’s nice to be older and realize what we don’t know.

    By the way, will someone please explain the humor? I want a good laugh also.

  9. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Deb
    You are right that true wisdom is always accompanied by a thorn in the flesh.
    If we did not have an obvious weakness to keep our feet on the ground we would become big headed, as Steve said.
    Jesus has true humility even though He has all power in His hands, and needs no thorn.
    Our Wisdom is in our Awe of God and our love for Jesus.
    Worldly wisdom reflects the world but God’s wisdom reflects Jesus.
    If our face was a mirror and we look straight out at the world then people will only see a reflection of the world and themselves, but if we look up at 45 degrees to Jesus, then they will only see a reflection of Jesus.(This is how we are to live, in the world but not of the world)
    If we look straight up, then God only sees Jesus in us.
    Our wisdom is only in HIM and HIM alone.
    So our goal is to be a mirror that is highly polished, and that can only be done by (GOD)grinding away with some kind of abrasive. Heavy to start with but slowly becoming more refined until the job is done.
    Bob

  10. poohpity says:

    Yes, Bob. The change that happens in us is from the Lord and even our faith is a gift from Him then we really have nothing to boast about.

    I was also confused about the humor thing, please clarify.

  11. Rajnesh says:

    Nice blog, Mart. Talk about a reality check. It stops me dead in my tracks and forces me to re-evaluate how I am going about attaining wisdom and knowledge, not only in the Word but far more importantly applying it to me, striving to be a better person in the bigger picture of life.
    Guess, I would like to attain it, all the while firmly grounded and not develop some sort of a bloated ego complex.

  12. plumbape says:

    I think brother Steve is referring to the “Big Head” in the picture of the brother who made a “wise” choose of hats….!? lol, got that BOZO thing going on!

  13. djmemb says:

    As Mart says:
    Apparently there is a way of pursuing wisdom that deepens our realism.
    Would love to hear a discussion of how we can pursue knowledge, understanding and wisdom without developing an inflated sense of our insight in the process.

    I thought of a verse that often comes to mind. Starting in Romans, Chapter one and leading up to Verse 22
    Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
    Paul speaks of God’s invisible attributes visible in creation, and how man has tried to make God in our image. All creation reveals the glory of God, and thankfully through the Son we have the Light and the Truth by the Spirit. My response to Mart is the obvious: We must humble ourselves by recognizing the awesomeness of God in visible and invisible revelation of Himself. Then we can seek to understand with our limited ability a bit of His knowledge and love which is freely available to us. Professing to be wise we are fools, but through Him there is wisdom, allelujah.

  14. poohpity says:

    It depends on a person being receptive to more of God and then we understand it takes less of us. When we realize humbly who we are compared to Christ we have a better understanding of our relationship to other human beings and find more commonalities as we walk in faith together. When we feel at all superior to each another then we really have missed the point of ALL scripture. It is about God not us.

  15. daisymarygoldr says:

    Thank you for a thought-provoking post!

    Wisdom that renders us “wise in our own eyes” is not backed up with good life and is earthly, sensual and demonic. This is the wisdom of the world. It wants nothing to do with God…it does not align with His truth. In fact it is opposed to God and His way.

    God’s Word is the wisdom of God (Luke 11:49). Our fleshly wisdom refuses to humble before God and His Word. The portion for my quiet time today was Jer 37-39 and my heart simply wept for King Zedekiah and the people of Judah.

    As it was back then, so it is even today… this human wisdom continues to blind many of us to the message of the Prophets and the Apostles… it makes us proud and concerned only with personal honor… “What will people say?” It continues in unbelief and prevents us from confessing our wrongs to humbly repent and turn back to God.

    When we are “wise in our own eyes” we become self-centered… lovers of self, self-absorbed and always concerned about my own wants and desires—me, my life, my sufferings, my sorrow, my sickness, my success, my understanding, my thinking and my way!

    Such soulish wisdom is marked with bitter jealousy (envy) and contention (rivalry, selfish ambition) and ultimately leads to destruction and death. James explains, “For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.”

    Being “heady” and “wise in our own eyes” results in pain and chaos—divided church, destructive relationships, divorced marriages, deserted children, damaged and depressed people and a dilapidated society. “What sorrow for those who are wise in their own eyes and think themselves so clever” Isa 5:21

  16. daisymarygoldr says:

    James 3 in The Message reads: “Do you want to be counted wise, to build a reputation for wisdom? Here’s what you do: Live well, live wisely, live humbly. It’s the way you live, not the way you talk, that counts. Real wisdom, God’s wisdom, begins with a holy life” i.e. backed up with good life!

    This wisdom from above is pure—it has no sin. It is not centered on self but on God alone. It does not make us “wise in our own eyes” because our eyes are focused on Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

    When we are ruled by Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom (1 Cor 1:30), His wisdom makes us yearn for peace among brothers and sisters in the family of God… it makes us to readily forgive others and enables us to love… love even those who do not love us.

    God’s wisdom helps us seek and submit to God’s will regardless of the circumstances—favorable or otherwise and is marked with grace… not ours but God’s grace. James concludes in 3:18, that if we follow the wisdom of God it will ultimately yield the harvest of righteousness (of conformity to God’s will in thought and deed).

    How can we pursue this wisdom? Bob in Cornwall’s first post said it best! Unlike our wisdom, His wisdom is our righteousness, holiness and the redemptive power of God meant for the very saving of our souls! Lord Jesus promised to His disciples, “I [Myself] will give you wisdom that all of your foes combined will be unable to stand against or refute” (Luke 21:15)

    And yes, to man’s understanding it may appear “even more foolish to pursue wisdom…” but “the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom”. Hence this topic encourages me to remain humble, walk in His fear and continue to seek God and His eternal wisdom… all the days of my life.

    Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!

  17. SFDBWV says:

    Mart stated above “Would love to hear a discussion of how we can pursue knowledge, understanding and wisdom without developing an inflated sense of our insight in the process”.

    Mart being educated in communication skills, has ask, as I understand the statement; How do we gain knowledge and or wisdom without getting a *Swelled head* or as I call it the *Big Head*

    I appologize if you don’t see the humor in this, but even as I write this I am laughing.

    This is one of thoes topics that you can’t win.

    We are encouraged by scripture (Ephes.4:14) to be confident and not subject to being swayed by the opinions of others, but by speaking the truth (in love)we may grow up.

    If we seem confident, others may see that as arogance, however unintended that may be.

    If we aren’t confident, then our faith is vulnerable to being weakened, by others, however unintended.

    One way to solve the dilemma, is to isolate yourself and speak to no one. This ain’t a good solution.

    Another way to solve the problem, may be to agree with everyone, and just say, well you may be right also. But if you don’t believe it, it’s a lie.

    Quiet confidence, is a skill that is developed. Whatever *truth* learned, especialy scripture related, is between you and God. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all *Truth* (John 16:13).

    Who then among us goes around bragging that they have special knowledge, that only they can possess? If we believe that, then we would be the biggest fool ever.

    Any knowledge we may know, concerning God, God has allowed us to understand it. This isn’t because we are special. This is only possible because God has allowed us to understand it.

    Because I believe that, I can say if I possessed all the knowledge in all of the world and all of heaven and beyond, it would still be to the Glory of God.
    Of course in Corinthians we learn that possessing all that knowledge without love, means the knowledge and wisdom we have, are useless and mean nothing; without love.

    I appologize to all who didn’t see the humor as I did. But that’s ok. I fully understand the frustration of knowing the truth of a matter, and then patiently allow others to find that same truth for themselves. The trick is to not hurt feelings in the process.

    I have crews out removing snow, and so need to be attentive to their progress.

    Want to thank all of you, for prayers for us.

    Steve

  18. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Job 28:20-28 (The Message)

    20-22 “So where does Wisdom come from?
    And where does Insight live?
    It can’t be found by looking, no matter
    how deep you dig, no matter how high you fly.
    If you search through the graveyard and question the dead, they say, ‘We’ve only heard rumors of it.’

    23-28 “God alone knows the way to Wisdom,
    he knows the exact place to find it.
    He knows where everything is on earth,
    he sees everything under heaven.
    After he commanded the winds to blow
    and measured out the waters,
    Arranged for the rain
    and set off explosions of thunder and lightning,
    He focused on Wisdom,
    made sure it was all set and tested and ready.
    Then he addressed the human race: ‘Here it is!
    Fear-of-the-Lord—that’s Wisdom,
    and Insight means shunning evil.'”

    :-)

  19. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Any other “wisdom” is foolishness!

  20. daisymarygoldr says:

    Steve, please do not apologize for seeing humor on this page. It is all in one’s perception of what has been communicated in this topic. Of course, you will laugh… if say for instance you are looking at me in that picture… with a “wise in my own eyes” “Big Head”….which speaks of pride.

    “Pride goes before destruction” and so, with that insight if you look beyond my “Swelled head” to the destruction this foolishness would unleash in my life—a bitter divorce, my children sold to drugs, alcohol and porn and my whole life shattered into a million un-mendable pieces…will it still be a laughing matter to chuckle at?

    Just to make us think…

  21. poohpity says:

    Sometimes we base if we are not suffering problems in our lives as to whether we are living close to God when in fact God will put folks through trails to grow our faith as He did with Job and many others.

  22. rxman says:

    I looked up what the Greek word was for wisdom and one of the definitions was to see clear or clarity. I had never thought of it that way before but in James 1 when it says ask God for widsom and it will be given to you it makes sense.

    We can’t all be Bible scholars but I am amazed when something I have read many times in the Bible suddenly makes sense or I understand it in a different way then I had before. This has nothing to do with how much schooling I’ve had or how “spiritual” I am but I believe it is God’s grace being given to me. It also seems to occur when I am really searching for an answer to a question that has been on my mind. (Seek and you shall find??).

    Great topic to ponder.

    Isn’t refump a great guy?

  23. poohpity says:

    Yes, he is!

  24. saled says:

    Thanks, plumbape, for explaining the humor to me. I feel admonished. Part of my job is teaching remedial reading, and every week I preach, “Never skip the pictures or graphics. They are there for a purpose.” I will start practicing what I preach and pay attention to the pictures.

  25. Anna777 says:

    Steve – Thanks for the great post – sharing some great insights that, as you said, could not even be understood without the power and wisdom that comes from God himself.

    Anna

  26. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    1 Corinthians 1:17-31 (The Message)

    17God didn’t send me out to collect a following for myself, but to preach the Message of what he has done, collecting a following for him. And he didn’t send me to do it with a lot of fancy rhetoric of my own, lest the powerful action at the center—Christ on the Cross—be trivialized into mere words.

    18-21The Message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hellbent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. It’s written,

    I’ll turn conventional wisdom on its head,
    I’ll expose so-called experts as crackpots.
    So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn’t God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in his wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb—preaching, of all things!—to bring those who trust him into the way of salvation.

    22-25While Jews clamor for miraculous demonstrations and Greeks go in for philosophical wisdom, we go right on proclaiming Christ, the Crucified. Jews treat this like an anti-miracle—and Greeks pass it off as absurd. But to us who are personally called by God himself—both Jews and Greeks—Christ is God’s ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one. Human wisdom is so tinny, so impotent, next to the seeming absurdity of God. Human strength can’t begin to compete with God’s “weakness.”

    26-31Take a good look, friends, at who you were when you got called into this life. I don’t see many of “the brightest and the best” among you, not many influential, not many from high-society families. Isn’t it obvious that God deliberately chose men and women that the culture overlooks and exploits and abuses, chose these “nobodies” to expose the hollow pretensions of the “somebodies”? That makes it quite clear that none of you can get by with blowing your own horn before God. Everything that we have—right thinking and right living, a clean slate and a fresh start—comes from God by way of Jesus Christ. That’s why we have the saying, “If you’re going to blow a horn, blow a trumpet for God.”

  27. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I am sorry if I took up too much space with quoting Paul above, but The Lord is speaking to me very profoundly through this topic.
    What keeps coming to mind over and over again to me is that the only boast we have is in Jesus Christ, Messiah and Him Crucified.
    Yes I am going to be “Big Headed” in Christ and Him alone!

    30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us *wisdom* from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

    31so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

    1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (New American Standard Bible)

  28. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Bob, no you were not too long, mine will be londer still.
    I would like to relate a story to you that is about being wise in your own eyes, and not reflecting Jesus.
    And about how God sees us, those of us who think they we are a somebody wise.
    When I was in the third grade of art school, one of the students brought a book of a painter which he thought very good. We all looked at the pictures of the paintings and were impressed. Then our teacher came in, looked at it, and then he became very angry (in a good way). He started to tell a story of an old humble man, who owned a fabric shop, all sorts of fabrics, and all sorts of stuff with it. A whole shop full of nice things, everywhere to see, hidden in corners, all with different history which the old man could tell about.
    Now, the teacher said, that humble old man has more to say to me then this proud man who is showing of how good he can paint.
    But nothing else there to see, no other story to detect in it. These paintings are boring after a while.
    It took me several years to get to see through paintings, and see the vain spirit by which it can be painted.
    That’s how God sees us too, He does not see Himself reflected in us, but us thinking we are really wise. Not that God want to see Himself reflected because of Himself, but because of the vain spirit He sees coming out of us.

    In painting it is a matter of becoming like a little child: just having fun to paint, with all the colors, just enjoying, and once in a while use your mind to see if it is OK, (which a little child cannot do yet).
    (Just try to do that, probaly within a minute you already start to think, what color shall I choose, and there you go, the child would already have started in enjoyment)
    A little child does not have a self conscience yet, of how good he is.

    So if you see a painting and you think: Wow, that is a good painter! Probably he is just showing off.
    And when you see a painting and think; I can do that! Then you see something which is humble, but yet inspiring. (Because if you would really try to do it, you would find out how hard it is)

    Like Steve said, let the other find some truth for themselves, that is so inspiring for the other. And that in turn will be an inspiration to you.
    Like painting, a man shows exactly which stroke of paint to put where, is quite boring. Where is the individuality, the other person being confident to find new paths himself, being led by God. Have confidence in your pupils encourage them to go to God themselves. That is also being humble. Be inspiring to others, that they can say: What you do I can do. Not that they say: Well this man (woman) is such a wise christian I could never be like that. Maybe then you are just wise in your own eyes and not reflecting Gods wisdom.

    Lets be like little children, and then we will reflect the mind of Christ.

  29. foreverblessed says:

    Rxman, thanks for sharing your insight: Wisdom is Clarity!

  30. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Mathew 18:3 (New International Version – UK)
    3 And he said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Foreveblessed…Thanks
    I saw a little child yesterday in a pushchair without a care in the would just chating away to itself in baby talk as loud as could be. I looked up and smile at the young mum. It was a joy to behold and a wonder to see.
    You are so right, a child has no awareness of self even though we all know they can have a strong will. They will imitate without question what they see their daddies doing, just as we should imitate Jesus.
    I have a friend who is now 77 years old, but all her life she has managed to keep that childlike innocence and goes where angels fear to tread.
    To be childlike is wisdom indeed.
    Bob

  31. SFDBWV says:

    Just want to take a minute and say that, if we are seeking God intellectualy, we have a very long, frustrating, and difficult search.

    Do we have to know *everything*? Does it help with our faith? Faith being a gift from God.

    We are told that Solomon was the wisest of all men…Well what happened. Solomon led Israel into sin. As we read the books of Solomons wise living, we see a person who indulged himself in every pleasure the world had to offer.

    He experimented in all sorts of self gratifing adventures and became bored with them all.

    It doesn’t take much wisdom to live and learn. Being that learning through experiance is indeed the best teacher. For if we don’t learn from our experiances we continue to repeat our mistakes. The only wisdom shown there is that we had to *learn* the hard way..

    It would be a wiser person who listened to God and believed Him, without the trouble of disobeying Him and learning the consiquence.

    Steve

  32. SFDBWV says:

    Daisy, Your comments to me were somewhat confusing. I don’t wish to misrepresent you or misinterpet your comments. So allow me to seek clarity.

    Every time the subject of superiority comes up, you tend to attach yourself to the comments. I wish you to understand, please, that I in no way consider you to be superior to anyone on this blog.

    As to whether I think you may have a swelled head? What I think shouldn’t really matter to you. If you are strong in your faith.

    Mart’s comments are asking, how do we gain confidence without getting a false sense of ego stretching.

    So, if we are really mature and confident, then our egos aren’t in the way.

    Are you saying that you are embroiled in a bitter divorce? That your children are hooked on drugs and alcohol? That you are a user of porngraphy? That your life is shattered?

    Or are you just being rhetorical?

    Why would you ask me if I thought such a destroyed life would be funny?

    Good grief…All I said, was that it seemed funny to me that Mart was asking how do we get smart without feeling smart. It seemed to me to be a frustration, he is trying to overcome. As well as any of us that may feel we know anything.

    I guarantee, the next time I laugh, I will laugh alone. Somehow having to explain what I found humorous, has taken the smile out it.

    Steve

  33. saled says:

    It’s been valuable for me to read all the different comments on how to become smart without feeling smart. foreverblessed’s remarks about being like children who haven’t developed the self-awareness to think about whether or not their creations are ‘good’ might just be the answer. Who was it who said, “the unexamined life is not worth living”? Maybe this is what the tree of knowledge of good and evil did to us.

    The use of the word clarity to define wisdom is also an eye-opener to me. This does make sense.

  34. poohpity says:

    I don’t know if any of you remember the TV series “Hogan’s Hero’s” with Bob Crane and Richard Dawson. The German guard that used to watch them always used to say when he was asked a question, “I KNOW NOTHING” with the German accent. If we really think about it the knowledge we are given from above is to be able to “Love God with all our hearts, souls and minds and to love others as ourselves” but instead it seems that we bicker and argue over things that in no way help us serve as Jesus did. The only service that we end up doing is serving our own pride.

    So if the knowledge we gain serves only to boost one’s self worth than obviously the whole issue is lost somewhere in the translation and the lesson is gone. None of us knows the things of God unless it is revealed from the Holy Spirit and if we do not do good with what we have learned then it is all vanity. We are to spur each other into good works not to see who knows the most because then you really “Know Nothing” as Klink would say. LOL!!!

  35. Godmakesmeable says:

    why are we not zapped from this Earth the moment we accept Christ? :-) (before we start “trying” to do something)

  36. daisymarygoldr says:

    Steve, your posts have always been a blessing to me and I do enjoy your laughs. So, please do not stop smiling:)

    I’m afraid that you have misunderstood my comment. If I understood it correctly this topic is about being “wise in our own eyes” which certainly does not make me or any one superior.

    “a false sense of ego stretching” destroys life and it is sad… And in that context I wondered what was funny about an inflated ego that eventually leads to destruction? BTW, none of us would want to be the object of God’s laughter… Prov 1:26

    To gain God’s wisdom is to gain godly fear. How can one feel smart in fearing the Lord? It is our head intelligence that results in an inflated ego and not only is it considered as foolish in God’s eyes it will also cause us much frustration in trying to remain humble.

    Hope, this helped clarify… if not, then please ignore my comments. You are much loved in the Lord!

  37. Lively says:

    Oh Pooh! Are we ever on the same wave length! Last night while falling asleep I was thinking about the blog and Sgt. Shultz popped to mind! (Klink was the Colonel)

    This is an interesting topic for me in that I long to be more for the Lord, but pride may be an issue for me. I found Mart’s post a bit amusing in a way, as well. Gaining wisdom and knowledge while staying humble is a bit like watching a dog chase its tail – and endless path of frustration!

    2 Cor 12:7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me

    What many wouldn’t give to know what that thorn was. It also makes me wonder, what “thorn” do those that are “surpassingly great” leaders in Christendom bear.

  38. Lively says:

    Godmakesmeable – I think some are…

  39. dachshund says:

    All wisdom and truth has God at the center.

    When I remember that I ambled (and still do) helplessly and full of sin and misperception without the Lord and that He saved me anyway according to his Grace by dying on the cross, I am returned to the right way to view my life.

    Either realization alone is incomplete. I am slime without Him AND yet am so loved by Him anyway – what joy! By internalizing this again, I can see clearly; I need to keep simply realizing this in my core.

  40. poohpity says:

    Yes, Shultzie that is right, lol. Shows to go ya don’t it. With age comes memory loss, lol.

    Amen! dachshund.

  41. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I think I am missing something here?

    Are we not being too intellectual.

    Like foreverblessed said, “A little child does not have a self conscience yet, of how good he is.”
    so as God’s children we should not even be aware of how good we are or if we have wisdom or not.

    saled, this is exactly what the tree of knowledge of good and evil did to us, it took away our innocence!
    We now think we know what is good and bad for us and are aware of our own self immage, hence Adam said he was naked. A small child is not aware of nakedness or whether he was good or bad at something. All he needs is aproval and a smile from a parent to know he is doing well.

    “The FEAR-of-THE-LORD is the begining of Wisdom!”

    What else is there to say on this subject?

    Bob

  42. Lively says:

    I’m not so sure about the little child not being aware. Children learn very young how to seek favor from parents. A smile is the first thing – babies know that when they smile they get a smile back. When infants are denied positive “face time” with mommy (or a caregiver) it is extremely detrimental to development.

    My two and a half year old knows exactly what to do to make me smile, he proudly shows off his handwork when he colors with his sister (even the time he did it on te wall – they let a pencil laying around)

    More than anything, I think it is the conumdrum of pride. A man who is wise is his own eyes is proud. A man who is wise by God is (or should be) humbled by the gift.

  43. Rajnesh says:

    Too intellectual, if not careful, can very easily cross-over into arrogance (however unintentional or maybe it is just perceived so by the recipient) and often times to me that intelligence becomes void and is replaced with an arrogant.
    We are here in God’s realm and should come here in “good faith” and not to out-do one another, but to help eachother across the finish line….Amen Pooh!

  44. poohpity says:

    Have you ever noticed how the intellect makes things seem so confusing when they are so very simple.

    Matthew 5:5; 5Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
    Matthew 5:8-9; 8Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
    9Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called sons of God.

  45. Rajnesh says:

    Haha….happens to me time and again when my poor ged is pitted against college grads, ma’s, ba’s, phd’s and the likes and so I turn to Him and say it’s not supposed to be this difficult, is it? Nonetheless, will you help me and He does.

  46. poohpity says:

    Raj we are not pitted against each other but learning from the things of this life to get ready for eternity, together, forever. Yea!!!

  47. Rajnesh says:

    I know, wrong choice of words and thought…..Yea!

  48. pegramsdell says:

    Paul was very intelligient, but he chose only to preach Jesus and Him crucified. Much study makes us weary. If we throw off the weight and come to Jesus, He will take our burdens. We need to let go and trust. God already knows how smart we are. That’s not what he’s after. Did we love? Did we give? Did we help? Were we obediant?

  49. kingsdaughter says:

    Bob, before I read your post I had already decided that I would post that verse…you beat me to it…”Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” “Beginning” is the key word here. In my humble opinion, if I don’t fear (revere) the Lord..what else can I possibly learn without first acknowledging Him….doing this allows me to become all the more wiser when I turn to Him. I do not claim to “know everything” and never will but I do know I am gaining more wisdom in His eyes when I trust in Him and not myself. The dirtier life gets, the more I have sought to understand…perhaps God continually keeps us humble by revealing to us that we don’t know as much as we think we know, at the same time, making us wiser for it.

    I have been on a relentless quest to know some answers I will never have this side of eternity but while looking I have become wiser in God’s eyes for my pursuit. I have learned about the loving God that I have never really known and the grace of God. I am wiser now than I was a year ago….and I am still learning.

    dale

    dale

  50. daisymarygoldr says:

    Wise thoughts pegramsdell and Dale!

    Just some more Friday food for thought…

    The Wisdom of God is not gained from books or in school. She “calls aloud in the street, the public squares, at the head of the noisy streets and in the gateways of the city she makes her speech”…hence, she is often misunderstood as arrogance.

    However, wisdom will not continue to shout forever. When “recipients” perceive her as arrogance, she will in turn become silent in times of trouble. Those who do not have God’s Spirit will perceive wisdom as arrogance.

    Paul tells us in 1 Cor 2, wisdom is gained only by spiritually mature believers who are ripe in understanding because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

    The mature will not scoff at wisdom but will love and embrace her for life like a man who cleaves to his wife. There cannot be a more intimate imagery than that! I think Solomon the wisest got all confused because he listened to 1000 wise women counselors!…just my hunch…

    People are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Let us not shun wisdom for fear of an inflated ego but diligently seek her out while she is found. For whoever finds wisdom finds life and receives favor from the Lord (Prov 8: 35)!

  51. Ted M. Gossard says:

    You paint a dark picture here, Mart, but necessarily so. We need to know something of the darkness before we can be open to the light. I do think God in his grace wants to do much that is truly good and of him among us as his people and in our hearts. Though at the same time we must always keep in mind that it is always and really forevermore God’s grace in Jesus. That we are completely reliant on him. But from that should come change in terms of life-oriented (“down to earth”) wisdom.

  52. bubbles says:

    I love, love, love Proverbs! Some do make me laugh. . .
    Proverbs 3 says, “be not wise in thine own eyes, fear the Lord and depart from evil. it shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.” So, like so many have already stated, the fear of the Lord is good for us. Just knowing that the Lord holds my next heartbeat and breath in His and is fearful. He chastens who He loves–that’s good, but who truly looks forward to punishment/being straightened out if we can do something else to avoid the punishment?

    Seems like EVERY TIME I think I am getting somewhere with wisdom, but really getting no place :) I fall flat on my face, and feel SO IGNORANT AND STUPID!! and embarrassed. I’m sure God laughs at me when I have prideful thoughts and then mess up. Again, Proverbs says pride goeth before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction.

  53. Anna777 says:

    I saw an interesting saying the other day on a sign outside a business in my town. It said “False humility is the greatest form of pride.”

  54. Gaby says:

    I thank God for letting me come across this blog, reading all your comments make me see my own sinfulness , pride ( I don’t even know what I have to be proud about, we are just born with it I suppose )
    I just want to ask God to forgive me , for I’m a sinner and ask Him to let me fear Him , and begin to get knowledge and understanding of His will in my life

  55. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Gaby,
    The fear of God is the begining of Wisdom, but to fear God is not a trembleling fear but is a respectful fear based on total love and admiration for each other.
    Like lovers, first it is hot and passionate, then it grows into a marraige of two equals where we, the bride, submit to God, but He, the groom (Jesus), treats us as if we are His own body.
    I am only just begining to see what it means.
    He loves you and forgives you and wants to be with you forever, no matter what!
    Bob

  56. Gaby says:

    Bob ,

    Thank you , I’m really encourage. I believe in Jesus’s love that surpasses all understanding. I’m still learning and asking Him to enable me to be doer of His Word , to build my life on the rock which is His Word and not on sand , so that when rain comes down and the stream rise and the wind blow and beat against my life , I will still stand and do not fall with a great crash. Let us pray for one another so that He will give us strength.
    Gaby

  57. poohpity says:

    Mart, you brought up another point that I truly believe is the root of our own self-deception. When we are quick to see the faults in others it takes away time from looking within as in seeing our reflection darkly when we walk away from that mirror it is so easy to then focus on others. During counseling sessions the point is to look at our own behaviors and become wise in what makes us tick then change can happen. If one never understands themselves and their motives it is called denial. If you can not accept having the propensity to sin then it is so much easier to say one has none but that would then be calling God a liar. If our own heart deceives us into be believing that even after accepting Christ we no longer have to look within there will be problems.

    Jesus did not come to hang around with those who considered themselves righteous but to be with those who understood who they were compared to a Holy God. That is not done only in a moment but to observe our hearts over a life time. Wisdom comes from a good look within at our motives and heart then we will look up to the One who can restore us to a right relationship with God and it is not us that can do that nor our good deeds or self righteousness. Read Mark 2:13-17. Most often those who feel that they are wise in their own eyes really are in denial about how much they truly are aware of their own stuff. It is easy to read a book and memorize the words but for it to be truly engraved in one’s heart it has to be experienced.

    It kills me when folks list all the righteous acts they do but the list of motives and ugly things they think and do is often very short. Those are usually the one’s that push people away from the Cross not bring them in. The good we think we are doing is just filthy rags compared to what Christ has done because of motivation especially if we are trying to look good on the outside the inside really needs to be cleaned up too!

  58. Puddleglum says:

    I have been reading all your comments on the current subject of wisdom.
    Recently I did the big test with the 75 questions to determin what my spiritual gifts are. My strongpoints were wisdom and insite. What has my “wisdom and insite” told me about me? That I am a sinner, it shocks me at times just how sinfull I am.
    I cannot say that I will stand. I crash and burn every day. All I can say is that by the grace of my Abba I stuggle to my feet and carry on. He will not let me go. How I long for that day when my pain and my sin are gone.
    I have probably gone off the subject of the discussion but thats the way I am feeling today and I needed to share it with some one. Thank you all.
    Puddle

  59. scout1 says:

    Hi Mart and friends:
    I really liked your topic this time. I like when things are pointed out even though it’s hard to look at. Our own pride and ego can truly grow with each piece of intelligence and facts that we attain. Our “wisdom” is defined so differently in our minds then that of the Lord. So, I think the balance comes with prayer. If you stay in communication with the Lord always, (pray without ceasing). I think that wisdom can be a beautiful thing. The Spirit of God would instruct you when to speak and when to hold your tongue. If you pray and ask God to give you the attitude and decernment needed with wisdom, it would be applied to God’s glory. I think that is what happened to Solomon, he stopped praying and talking with God. His distractions with all that his wives’ gods required left him to spend no praying with the real, one true God. His wisdom became the folly he always talked about. His wisdom only seemed to “work” or be of benefit to others when Solomon was walking with God.

    I think that God, with prayer and seeking Him always, would help to keep the gift of wisdom in a proper perspective of Glorifying God and keeping our “natural sinful man ego”, in check.

  60. Anna777 says:

    You know, I’m so thankful to know that with all of my human frailty, I can stand on the promise of the scripture in 2 Corinthians 5:17 (King James Version):
    17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Sometimes I wonder if I’m missing something. For sure I’m not a Bible Scholar (and I thank God for those of you who are!). I love reading the Word and do so daily. My new life in Christ was so dramatic (the stepping into light from utter darkness) that I am keenly aware of my dependence on Jesus every step of the way. I always pray that God will show me where I fall short, and he is faithful. I confess, repent, move on.

    The following scripture is so powerful:2 Timothy 1:8-12:
    8) Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;9)Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    10)But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11)Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
    12For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (KJV)

    If I act out of love, by the power of the Holy Spirit, I can’t second guess that. Personally, based on the fact that in all my years of running from God, I never had one person witness to me about the total forgiveness through Jesus Christ, I think that many believers are afraid to “risk” sounding arrogant. We don’t want to come across as “pompous” “holier than thou” whatever.

    I once heard a famous Hollywood personality (by his own admission not a believer) say “You know, if Christians really believe what they say they believe, how much do they have to hate someone not to share the plan of Salvation with them?”

    I for one think the failure to witness for Christ because of our pride, is far more prevalent than true believers being prideful in their sharing of the Gospel. After all, it’s not based on anything we have done, but what Christ did for us.

    I am so thankful for what Jesus did for me on the Cross. To God be the Glory!

  61. foreverblessed says:

    Puddlegum, you really got me when you wrote, “my strong points are wisdom and insight”… I immediately thought.. o dear, there we go. But the next line you wrote is so good: what an insight!
    Thanks for sharing

    And this verse is for Gaby, it touched my heart this morning, isn’t it God who will strengthen the inner man so to be able to do good works?:
    May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.
    2 Thess 2:16-17

    Anna, and you made me think about witnissing.
    I mostly pray for open minds, because the witnessing I did, the people just looked with a glaze at me. As if their minds can’t grasp it.
    And then I think, o dear, did I not tell it right?
    On the other hand:
    Do think back how you were yourself I remember now many times people had talked to me, when I was very young, about accepting Jesus in your heart, and I would dismiss it immediately, thinking that it could not be as easy as that.
    End of story at that time. It took me a legalistic church to get to that point, because obeying the commandments does not get you there either, it is a tiring treadmill.
    So it is as easy as that, because Jesus has done the hard part.

    We indeed need wisdom from God about bringing the gospel of Christ. And a lot of praying people, because it still is God who opens minds to the gospel.

  62. Anna777 says:

    Foreverblessed – Yes ….. I do understand what you are saying – so true! For sure it is God who opens peoples minds to the gospel. I was raised in a very legalistic church as well. I never thought the way they taught “salvation” was easy! I was quite aware I could never keep the law. It all seemed like an exercise in futility to me.

    I am so thankful for God’s grace and, as Mart was talking about on one of the previous blogs, that Jesus is our advocate and defender. I was not raised in a church that had a clear idea (obviously) of the gospel. I guess in my own rather inarticulate way, I was trying to say that we shouldn’t be afraid to share the gospel, because while some people may look “really intimidating” it doesn’t mean they don’t need Jesus. I’m sure I miss so many opportunities.

    Thank you Foreverblessed.

  63. Rajnesh says:

    Gotta love a godly snare that exposes your degrees of follies and how off the charts they can be.
    Yes Pro3:5-7 leaves me nodding in approval.

  64. xrgarza says:

    Mart & all,

    I think personally the first step towards wisdom is recognizing our own ignorance first.

    It’s a tough thing to admit our lack of wisdom, and especially in this generation that we are in, people would much rather make up an answer that sounds good to them than to simply say that they don’t have a clue.

    PS: I’ve taken a leave of absence from work to help care for my mother. We began administering Morphine almost 3 weeks ago, and this last Tuesday my mother has stopped eating. Please keep my family in prayer, as a lot of the childhood injuries are beginning to pop their heads up.

    Love you all
    Xavier

  65. wretch-like-me says:

    Xavier:
    Be encouraged… having been thru a similar situation with others in my family, the best advice I can offer is to draw near to the Lord in prayer and reading scripture. Lean on fellow christians you can TRUST.

    Be, above all else, kind and loving to all as Christ is kind and loving to you. You have the strength and power of Christ to carry you in this effort to preach the Gospel without saying a word…but loving your family and friends who will exhibit behaviors that reflect their status in Christ.

    A christian friend once corrected me when I complained about non-christian family-members who behaved badly. He asked me how I expected people who did not know Christ to behave?

    On the subject of wisdom:
    “We love because HE FIRST loved us.”
    Is it not the same with wisdom? Is HE not the source of all wisdom? We are only vessels, tools, mirrors, and channels for HIS purposes.

    Huggs
    frank

  66. xrgarza says:

    Frank, thanks for the good word.

    I began working on my childhood issues/injuries since 1987, I realize that with all of the progress that I have made I have barley began to scrape the surface.

    To see my brothers and sister who have never taken the time for whatever reason until now to begin to share their childhood hurts, brings me joy that the healing process has begun, however couldn’t it have been at a better time? I know that was a rhetorical question, but that simply adds so much more to the plate/table.

    Thanks for all of your pryers.
    Xavier

  67. phpatato says:

    Xavier, I continue to keep you, your mom and your family in my prayers. Sometimes I believe, when a dear loved one is near death, it brings a sense of urgency to clear the air so to speak. People are wanting to get things fixed up and right. They are wanting to get things off their chest because they are fearful that they will have to carry that load for the rest of their lives. I am praying that your plate is a big turkey platter..able to hold all that is add. God is with you and loves you very much. Lean on Him for support for He will see you through.

    Hi Frank, I have had you in my prayers as well. I hope all are well again.

    Xavier mentioned that the first step to finding wisdom is recognizing our own ignorance. In other words, I believe he is saying that in order to find God’s wisdom, we must first become fools. We must shed our egotistical pride, which are only delusional SELF-made thoughts anyway, and see ourselves as we truly are…helpless and ignorant without God.

    1 Corinthians 3:18-20: Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become foolish that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness”; and again, “The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless.”

    I came across these attributes of a self-deceived, self-important person full of himself: They aren’t happy unless they stand in opposition to everyone else. They have an opinion on virtually everything. They feel the need to critize. It is their nature to win on every issue. They can’t stand opposition or contradiction. They respond to disagreement by being condescending. They aren’t content to listen gratefully or appreciatively.

    Steve, I believe as you said, it is important to be confident. I also believe that humility should always accompany that confidence, because without humility, one risks becoming self-important, self-deceived and full of himself.

    God Bless each and every one of you today.

    Pat

  68. foreverblessed says:

    The evening februari 21 meditation of CH Spurgeon is fitting to the subject. (You can find it on internet)
    The wisdom of God is unlocked by tears, our liquid prayers.
    This description he gives reminds me very much of Kingsdaughter’s testimony about the past year. Her many tears in asking God for answers to this terrible ordeal with her son. And what does she say: she gained a lot of wisdom.
    I pray the same will happen to Xrgarza and his brothers and sisters. And with Pat who has her mom in very old age too. Also in our church there are many with terrible illnesses, also little children.
    I pray that with much prayers in tears we will be drawn closer to the heart of God. Because He is the source of wisdom, love and of everything else that is good.

  69. poohpity says:

    Romans 12:3; 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with SOBER JUDGMENT, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

    It does not seem to be how much knowledge we have, how many rules we follow, how good we are but the amount of faith that we are given is how we are to think of ourselves. Not how much faith we have earned or learned but been given to us from above.

  70. SFDBWV says:

    One of the truths I have learned over the course of my Christian walk, is that God will chastise believers when needed to get them in line.

    Anyone who thinks themselves to be wise in their own minds, need only wait. For God will pull the rug out from under shuch thinking.

    The danger lay in paying no heed to the rebukes.

    As I attempted to say earlier. Quiet confidence, is developed and practiced. One need not shout, if their understanding has found peace in their heart.

    Whereas we must keep an open mind to fresh thinking, and therefore be in a posture to recieve instruction. We also must always be on guard to the dangers of false doctrine and false teaching.

    The only proof being the undestanding of scripture and conformation by way of the Holy Spirt, of any subject in question.

    If we allow God to have His will in our hearts, the danger of having an inflated sense of our insight, will not be an issue. As any insight we may have comes only from God and not from our own abilities.

    Steve

  71. Anna777 says:

    Foreverblessed – What a beautiful thought. So true … the wisdom of God is unlocked by our tears. It made me think of times in my life since I have been walking with the Lord when I have shed so many tears in prayer. Then the peace, the wisdom, the encouragement that can only come from God him self fills my heart.

    It’s so humbling how so many times, in our seemingly darkest hour is when we truly can experience the comfort and strength and warmth of His touch.

  72. Anna777 says:

    Steve – I really appreciated your last post. I’m so thankful for Christian friends, my new friends on this blog included!, that care enough to point out anything false doctrines or false teachings.

    My pastor always tells us to hold everything up to the light of the Scripture.
    To question him for clarity in case we misunderstood his intent – he’s so humble. Such a blessing. He teaches through the Bible verse by verse – A wonderful way to learn the Word. (I need that!)

    Anna

  73. poohpity says:

    Anna, I think we all need that. The bible is the Living Word and contains so much wisdom and knowledge it is a life learning process. To be someone who says they know it all has only fooled themselves.

  74. foreverblessed says:

    Pooh, I would like to continue in the line what you wrote.
    Consider God, He is so great, no-one can see Him. Only Jesus. Even in heaven we can only see Jesus face to face, but no-one can see God, He is beyond the created creature. (Col 1:15)
    If we cannot see Him, neither can we comprehend Him totally. Forever we will know bit by bit more of His wisdom.
    So imagine God looking at us, thinking we are wise.
    He must laugh, Psalm 2:4.

    When I might think I am a somebody, and then look at the picture that Mart put there on top, I just have to laugh too.

  75. InHisHands says:

    Dear BTA Friends,

    I had a dear Pastor friend in my past that used to say, “Never say,’I would never do _____, because God will show you that you will.” We are sinners saved by grace and capable of doing all the vile things we think we would ‘never’ do. That is some of the foolishness I see in myself and other believers.

    In Romans 1 we read: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    When one strives to understand God intellectually and leave out faith, that is foolishness.

    Knowledge is factul information, understanding is perceiving that information, and using that information under the leading of the Holy Spirit is wisdom – at least in my perception of what I read in the Psalms and Proverbs.

    Thanks for letting me share.

  76. SFDBWV says:

    InHisHands, Thanks for reminding me of the vast difference between *Knowledge* and *Wisdom*.

    A person who possesses all the knowledge in the world yet lacks the wisdom as to know how to use it, is as useless as any one can be.

    Yet a person who shows wisdom and lacks knowledge, will find the knowledge they need to accomplish whatever task is set before them.

    Steve

  77. plumbape says:

    You got it Steve,

    Reminds me of the story about the agency that sent some new workers to a busy ware house and the foreman was getting everyone lined out with jobs. He told one guy who had a business degree to just sweep up this one area until things got rolling so to speak. So the guy said, “they must not have told you that I am the one with a degree in business” The foreman said “Oh my mistake then, let me have that broom and mop back and I’ll show you how to use it”….

    Matthew 11:19
    But wisdom is proved right by her actions

    I like Mart’s suggestions;
    For openers, would committing ourselves to a “spirituality” and “theology of listening” move us in the right direction?

    For example would:
    Listening to God to the point of realizing that we were made to know him– but that– at the most– whatever we know of him is like first grade in school (Isa 40:25-31; Isa 55:8-9).

    Listening to our own heart to the point of realizing that “knowing ourselves” is essential to understanding our own motives– but that– at the most– what we can know of our own hearts is that they are far more self-deceiving than we could ever measure (Jer 17:9).

    Listening to one another to the point of understanding how quick we are to jump to the wrong conclusions– but that– at the most– what we can know about one another is like agreeing to hold up flashlights to our own faces in the dark.

    Listening to wise counselors to deal with difficult issues is safer than going on our own instincts– but that– at the most– many wise counselors show us how much we need to depend on the Lord for his leading, provision, insight, and protection…. to avoid the blindness of being “wise in our own eyes” (Prov 11:14; Prov 3:5-7).

    Thanks Mart

  78. poohpity says:

    ape, I like the reference to Matthew 11:19 perfect.

    As I was reading this morning Mark 4:13-20; 13Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and PRODUCE a crop—thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown.”

    If we have wisdom then it will result in actions not for the sake of knowledge itself. That kind of wisdom is like the story you told above. Good practical application just as Jesus told He came to serve not to be served if we hold so tight to what we think we know and miss the application what good is it.

  79. dependent says:

    InHisHands offered a succinct summary of knowledge vs. understanding vs. wisdom. Nicely done!

    Just finished reading 1Cor 8 in ‘The Message’ version. I love how Paul applies a similar breakdown to a real-world issue that Christians faced regarding righteous living.

    Brilliant wording in v2 and 3 as he addresses the pride that often accompanies knowledge and the self-deception that Mart addressed:

    “…but sometimes our humble hearts can help us more than our proud minds. We never really know enough until we recognize that God alone knows it all.” (MSG)

    A lesson from 1Cor 8 seems to equate godly love with true wisdom. (The whole ‘sounding brass/tinkling cymbal’ concept of 1Cor 13.)

    I can be 100% correct in my theological knowledge of any given issue, and further, can rightly apply logic and understanding of scripture to arrive at the ‘right’ conclusion and STILL be 100% foolish (and destructive)as I interact with others on the matter.

    Humbly acknowledging the depth of pride, ignorance and rebellion that still awaits the work of the Potter’s hand seems to be a necessary step in our ongoing path to become more like Jesus.

    Those who think they’ve ‘arrived’ at the destination named Wisdom have further to go than they think. Another wonderful paradox of the Kingdom.

    It’s one thing to know the source of wisdom and thankfully enjoy the revelation that we are individually granted as we follow Christ. But it is an all too common and foolish error to assume that *access* to the Spirit of Truth equals the capacity and maturity to wisely *behave* in accord to God’s truth.

    I’m so glad Jesus seeks us and saves us even before we are fully aware of our foolishness and ignorance. May He grant us all that we need to pursue Him and His righteous wisdom so that the clarity He reveals can be clearly reflected to a dying world.

  80. foreverblessed says:

    I want to share something that maybe of the chart.
    But at church yesterday a man kept looking at me, after services. I must admit, I felt flattered. But today I came across a book “Warning to ministers their wives and mistresses” which was released last august,and this thing of yesterday came back to me. Maybe it is wisdom to tell about it, because these things are a trouble in the church. I think the adversary wants ministers, and other men and women to be led away from God. But I do not want it (that men look at me), why should they, they have their own wive.

    Just a wise word of warning. Keep things clean, flee from them. Let’s be brothers and sisters, children of God together.

  81. daisymarygoldr says:

    In response to Steve’s comment: “One need not shout…”

    During Biblical times, there used to be a watchman appointed to every city and his duty was to “shout” out what he sees.

    In Isaiah 56, God condemns false leaders who fail to shout it out: His watchmen are blind, they all lack “knowledge”; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep… They are shepherds who lack “understanding”; they all turn to their own way…

    On the other hand, God’s faithful watchmen are urged to: “Shout it aloud, do not hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Declare to my people their rebellion and …their sins. (Isaiah 58:1)

    Regardless of how they are perceived—“wise in their own eyes” or “loud-mouthed arrogant fools” or “sounding brass/tinkling cymbal” (aside: still suffer from nightmares of “clanging cymbal followed by a LOL!:)…The faithful who watch and shout… are humble and are not “heady” because they already know that it is God’s message and they are merely the messengers!

    John is a perfect example of “a voice shouting” Jn 1:23

    And what does it cost to shout out God’s truth? For John, it cost him his head. “The… watchman for God …faces hostility even in the house of God.” Hosea 9:8

  82. daisymarygoldr says:

    Although factual/theological knowledge is attained from reading the Bible, it is again “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge” (Prov1:7).
    Knowledge gained from the Bible will be of no real use to us, unless the Holy Spirit helps us to have an understanding of those truths.

    And all of that knowledge and all of the understanding will be of no use to us unless we are able to apply those concepts in life. Wisdom therefore is the application of knowledge in our real life.

    As Gaby pointed out, the wise man who not only reads God’s Word but is also obedient to do God’s word builds his life upon a solid foundation. While the foolish man who merely hears God’s word but does nothing, builds his house upon the sand.

    When trials, hardships and storms of life come, the wise man stands firm while the “wise in my own eyes” wavers, struggles and falls with a great crash.

    Bob’s comment “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord”, reminds me of our earlier discussions in “Contrast #2” on whether to “answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes”. Yes, we’ll be considered as “heady” when we boast in the Lord.

    As I had said back then, in order to defend his faith Paul was compelled to boast of his accomplishments for Christ. “I’ve made a complete fool of myself by going on like this. But it’s not all my fault; you put me up to it… Well, I’m sorry. Forgive me…” 2 Cor 12:11-13 The Msg.

  83. poohpity says:

    I believe Paul did not boast in his accomplishments for Christ but in the things he suffered because of preaching the Gospel.

  84. SFDBWV says:

    Daisy, once again you just don’t get it…The shouting about how much you think you know is not comparable to shaouting for the Lord.

    But even though you don’t understand, doesn’t seem to keep you from shouting about how much you think you know.

    Steve

  85. Rajnesh says:

    At first read I had gone through at least three different set of emotions: from finding that early quote funny to taking things personally to being accusive.

    I am truly sorry. Please forgive me.

  86. bubbles says:

    There’s an elderly couple in our church here. They have been married for many years, and are godly, wise individuals. They are role models for many of us.

    Don’t you just love spending time in the presence of older, godly, wise people? It’s a joy to listen to them as they speak of the Lord and what He has done for them. There’s always a calm, quiet atmosphere around them. They are careful to point us to Jesus and His Word, and not what they ‘think’. I love to listen to them pray. What a treasure wise, godly saints are!

  87. daisymarygoldr says:

    Steve, sorry I don’t get it. Followers of Christ do not know anything other than Christ and Him crucified! And yes, I will never understand your spirit which laughs at others misfortune…that laughs at others when they crash and fall!

    If my shouting bothers you, then please ignore my comments or maybe take it up with the Lord. As you yourself said, “God will pull the rug out from under such thinking”…don’t you then trust that God is in control? To expect me to stop shouting is to ask me to stop breathing!

    With much respect and love in Christ…

  88. poohpity says:

    Wow, Steve and daisy. This topic has really brought out “A Foolishness that is Off the Charts”. I hope one day there will peace and mutual respect between you both but thank you for giving us a life application of the topic.

  89. daisymarygoldr says:

    Lest others here misunderstand this, just wanted to clarify that I do respect and love Steve and look up to him as an older and wiser brother in Christ. The very purpose of my conversations is to learn more from him about what it means to be “heady”!

  90. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Words of Wisdom from Paul 1 Corintians 13 9message)

    Love never gives up.
    Love cares more for others than for self.
    Love doesn’t want what it doesn’t have.
    Love doesn’t strut,
    Doesn’t have a swelled head,
    Doesn’t force itself on others,
    Isn’t always “me first,”
    Doesn’t fly off the handle,
    Doesn’t keep score of the sins of others,
    Doesn’t revel when others grovel,
    Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
    Puts up with anything,
    Trusts God always,
    Always looks for the best,
    Never looks back,
    But keeps going to the end.

    Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.

  91. poohpity says:

    Thank you Bob, I fall short in so many of those areas. Thank you for the reminder to be aware of our motivation for anything we do or say that it be done in love and out of love for one another and especially for our Lord.

  92. daisymarygoldr says:

    1 Cor 13 speaks not of my human love but God’s love in me. It is a love, which springs from a pure heart and a good (clear) conscience and sincere (unfeigned) faith. (1 Tim 1:5)

    This love is not limited to saying nice things to those who are nice to me on this blog but will also manifest in my love for God and His Word, love for my spouse and my children, love for my brothers and sisters in the family of God and even love for those who do not love me! And this is exactly what was said in my first comment:

    Being “heady” and “wise in our own eyes” results in pain and chaos—divided church, destructive relationships, divorced marriages, deserted children, damaged and depressed people, disillusioned lives and a dilapidated society. “What sorrow for those who are wise in their own eyes and think themselves so clever” Isa 5:21

    Let us then love one another and not be “heady” with envying and jealousy and wrangling and factions behaving ourselves after a human standard like mere (unchanged) men. 1 Cor 3:3

  93. foreverblessed says:

    Steve does not laugh at others who stumble and fall. He laughed at the funny face, the person who thinks who is somebody, and just look at the odd expression on the face, and then with the big fan on top! That made him laugh. It is so good to look at that picture, you immediately will know how odd you look to God, when thinking “I am so wise”.
    Can’t you see the humor of this?

  94. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Proverbs 17:28 (Amplified Bible)

    “Even a fool when he holds his peace is considered wise; when he closes his lips he is esteemed a man of understanding.”

    Sometimes it is better to keep silent!

    :-)

  95. dependent says:

    Simply fascinating to follow this thread. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

    It’s almost as if Mart anticipated the way the discussion would unfold as he framed his ending examples.

    A great learning experience.

  96. bubbles says:

    Just a thought–sometimes individuals can use the word “love”, but the words they say and the meaning behind them can be two very different things. In life, we can say we love others, or we are letting the Lord love them through us, but our actions/words can very loudly say something entirely different. Is the love being shown?? Are those words/actions showing wisdom, or just pride? The middle letter of prIde is “I”. hmmmm.

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