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Jesus and Health Care

Photo: GR ArtPrize Exhibit

I have no interest in using this space to argue the partisan issues or perspectives of the current national health care issue.

What I would like to talk with you about is whether fair and affordable health care for everyone is something that followers of Christ should be concerned about.

Are we responding with the wisdom of our Lord? Or are we entangled with the rest of the nation in the current bitter political, partisan, stalemate? Are we among those who think party loyalty and talking points are a way of promoting the interests of our God?

“Where is the wisdom and heart of Christ showing up in this current debate?”

What if our people refused to play into the party struggle for power, and instead urged both sides to work together for the people they serve rather than for the deep pockets who are still trying to buy the outcome– one way or the other?

Do we know the truth? Is health care already accessible to all, as some claim? Is the problem simply that those who don’t have care have chosen to spend their money on expensive cars or television sets rather than on expensive health insurance? Are too many of our fellow citizens going into bankruptcy and losing their homes because of not being able to pay medical bills? Are other countries providing national health care in a way that is more humane?

What I’d like to hear at this point is an honest discussion that would show we are (1) listening to all sides, (2) concerned about those who need help, (3) and deeply troubled about partisan solutions that we would never want for those we love…

Are we praying the way followers of Christ have been taught to pray, i.e. as Paul suggests, ” I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. As you make your requests, plead for God’s mercy upon them, and give thanks. 2 Pray this way for kings and all others who are in authority, so that we can live in peace and quietness, in godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior (2Tim 2:1-3 NLT).


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197 Responses to “Jesus and Health Care”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Mart it amuses me that I fully expected to see this topic on the board today….

    Glen Beck being challanged by a minister from a *progressive* church to answer the same questions.

    I think the short answer is that yes, American citizens should have equal and available health care for all of it’s citizens. American’s senior citizens should also be taken better care of than we see in nearly all nursing homes.

    The problem arrises in who is better qualified to manage the health care industry. Who among us truly believe that government does a good job managing anything?

    Another problem is people…Insurance companies are a business. it is their intention to make a profit. They have no real checks or balances to keep things fair or affordable. They can raise their rates when they want and if you don’t pay drop you like a heavy hammer.

    Most all of us have been in a position of being uninsured at some point in our lives. Some hospitals won’t admit you and no doctor is going to treat you unless they get paid….Free clinics are available in some locations, but not everywhere. Too often it falls to some clerk to either be overly official, or have a heart and find a way to help.

    You don’t ever want to find yourself in the position of being on welfare. A government run disaster.

    HMO’s… I remember when they first appeared on the scene. A friend of mine whoes son had cancer was harrased by their HMO for what the insurance company considered unessesary treatments….

    Yes ere needs to be something done to correct the healthcare in our country. How it’s done should not be a political issue nor forced through congress in order to just be done for the sake of saying that we did something.

    We are not going to have that utopian society, we want. Because of sin, peoples motives get twisted. But that is not to say we should not work together to better take care of each other.

    Complicated…

    Steve

  2. SFDBWV says:

    I was fully imployed since 17. Over the years I found myself layed off occationally, but because I either found employment right away or as the case was most often, my health insurance continued for a while after being laid off. I was never without health care. I almost never used it.

    My wife also worked and so covered me as well. When Matthew came along she and I both were able to provide health coverage for him.

    Because Matt was working full time when he wrecked his car, he was covered for the huge medical bills that followed. However that didn’t mean we didn’t have issues with the billing people at the hospital.

    When Rita came down with cancer, our lives became entangled with the thorny issues of medical bills. From both her issues as well as at the time Matt’s.

    I actualy had more problems from the billing departments at the hospital then I did with the insurance compay.

    In one occurance I recieved a letter from an attorney representing the hospital, they were notifing Matt he was going to be sued for $9,000. dollars for a bill he had not yet recieved.

    The bill in question had not been properly coded when sent to the insurance company for payment. Even though the insurance company told the clerk at the billing department at the hospital to change the billing code, and the bill would be paid. The clerk would not…

    I had to get a third party to intervene between the hospital and the insurance company in order to resolve the issue. The billing department here being the problem.

    On another occation I recieved a letter from the insurance company informing me that the hospital had presented them with a bill for medications the last weeks of Rita’s life for $22,000 dollars. They explained that the bill had not been presented to them in a timely fashion ( over 6 months after her death ). That because of the lapse of time they would not pay it and that I could not be billed as the law protected me in this case. I never heard from the hospital in this case.

    Because Matthew was working when he was injured and had medical coverage, the insurance company could not drop him, as long as I kept paying the premium. It has been over 10 years and I still make the premium payment every month. Even though now Medicare is his primary provider and he is still a dependant under my own retirement health care provider. So my son is covered by three providers.

    While Matt was in the rehab hospital it was costing $33,000 a week to keep him there. I got him out of there as soon as the doctors released him. He became nessesary to them to be able to bill for every moment anyone did anything for his comfort or care.

    Paying for insurance seems like a great waste of money, untill you need it. The systems create more expense then what would seem nessesary.

    If I remember the story correctly, it was a Roman Emperor who first ordered that Christians be used to clear the sick and dying from the streets in Rome. Some sort of plague being the cause.

    The Emperor saying that these Christians don’t mind facing death.

    So the concept of hospitals was born, with Christians at the beginning. Taking care of thoes in need of being taken care of.

    It is still sin that has corrupted any good thing that comes along.

    The cost of healthcare is out of control, Should people who have payed their way now be expected to pay for thoes who won’t…notice I said won’t not can’t.

    Medicare is the government run healthcare system for retirees and the disabled.

    Medicade is the government healthcare system for thoes on welfare.

    The employers of most but not all employees pay for the healthcare insurance of the working people.

    Many self employed and working people pay for their own healthcare insurance.

    It is the people who fall between the areas I have mentioned that have no insurance, but that doesn’t mean they can’t get healthcare.

    More later.

    Steve

  3. Regina says:

    Mart,
    I enjoyed reading your blog (I enjoyed reading Steve’s comment too). What you stated makes perfect sense to me. I don’t understand what’s going on in this country regarding health care. Why is it that we’re so willing to help foreign neighbors, but we don’t seem to have the same compassion for one another? Many doctors go to foreign countries and offer their services free of charge.

    As a Christian, the (complicated) health care situation causes me to reflect on the words of Jesus too. Sometimes I feel like we’re fighting a losing battle, but I know we can’t give up. If we do, the situation will only get worse. It seems to me that wealthy Americans don’t want to help average Americans. But I was thinking, several months ago, about the historical background of this country. This country was mostly founded on free labor.

    In the early years of America’s formation, business owners sought out ways to earn a profit. For them, slave labor was an ingenious idea. As we know, slaves were forced to work for free and business owners profited immensely from it. For many, many years business (plantation) owners have been able to pass their wealth on to their family members generationally.

    Sadly, slaves had nothing to pass on to their children or their children’s children–no familial heritage or financial support. Some people don’t believe that that situation has anything to do with the state of American society right now. …some would say that we can’t cry over spilled milk. Still, I wonder if America would be a better country now if that hadn’t happened. If everyone, no matter what color they were, could of had the opportunity to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    I know that bad things happen because of sin…man’s fall in the Garden of Eden. Still, I can’t help wondering…

    Regina

  4. Mart De Haan says:

    Steve and Regina, thanks for weighing in and telling some of your own story. Hope others will do the same.

  5. afranz says:

    Well Mart , this one really stepped on my toes. How many cute little political emails have I passed on, instead of praying for the ones they were aimed at! From now on I am going to make it a point to consider the issue, and pray for those involved in the decision. God is able to effect more change than any election ever could. Thanks for the topic.

  6. Lively says:

    I’ve a house full of family this weekend…

    If I can, I’ll go in more depth later, but I know what it is like to be without insurance and have a major issue. It wasn’t that we were buying expensive stuff – we barely made enough to feed the family and put gas in the cars to make it to work. That was about 5 years ago – we’re still paying the $30,000 off.

    That said, the same major issue two years later – this time with insurance and we paid out of pocket less than $1,000 – and the total bill that the insurance company paid was 1/3 of it and the hospital stay was actually longer. Why? Because we had insurance and they don’t have to pay as much as someone who is not insured. Insurance = cut rate prices
    “Private” citizen = full costs

    I’ve some pretty strong opinions on the issue… it’s broke, needs to be fixed but I’m really not all that thrilled with how it’s being done right now, it doesn’t address the core problems – I think it’s a bandaid. But, is a bandaid better than an open wound? Maybe.

  7. poohpity says:

    I usually read some of the bills going before the House and Senate that are important. To find that they usually contain more that what is presented to the public. It is the public’s responsibility to read them and then get a hold of their representatives to have their voice heard.

    I know many doctors who have come here from Canada and other countries because they are able to make a better living here but yet their skills seem to be lacking the best care of the patient. There are also more malpractice suits because of bad medical care and rightly so. There are the pharmaceutical companies that give kick backs to the doctors for using their meds when in a lot of cases folks are way over medicated and the interactions of the drugs cause more harm than good.

    This problem is way larger than any politicians have the ability to solve. Just like the credit problems we would like to BLAME the banks or mortgage companies when in reality it is the consumer who needed to say if I can not afford that then maybe I do not need it right now. With health care skyrocketing the consumer has to start taking more responsibility with their care. Their are people all over the world that survive with minimal care.

    There are clinics opening here by Christian doctors for the working poor or aliens that are unable to get health insurance. They charge $15 a visit and $5 for labs then are able to get low cost medicine. They work on a minimal basis with basic needs and then if something major arises they make every attempt to get them seen for the need. There are many ways to get this problem solved it would seem they are asking the wrong questions to the wrong people.

    The system is also filled with prescription drug addicts that use the system to get their meds which puts the a strain for those who truly need it. It is all about greed from the consumer, providers and government. They have all run amuck because we have not been paying attention and have allowed things to get by without excepting responsibility for things and allowing blame to run with the ball.

    I for one am on Medicare and Medicaid. The doctors my plan allows have butchered my legs and because of inadequacy have caused me to be dependent on social security rather than being able to work. It is my belief that churches need to step up to help those in their congregations that need help rather than depend on the government but that is just my opinion. It would be nice if when doctors are unable to do a procedure then to send it to someone else who is able. As a consumer to be aware of the ability to ask more questions and say no to the already over use of medical care. Our bodies are fearfully and wonderfully made and can do more than we give credit to.

    This is a topic that like the government each established entity is qualified in their own area of expertise to do and do not do it. We have a voice so let it be heard not just on this blog but to the government and to health care as well. As long as it is done civilly maybe someone out there will listen and if you do not like how the government is running things then fire them and hire new folks.

  8. SFDBWV says:

    Want also to say that even though Matthew’s personaly paid health insurance coverage covered the cost of pharmacy prescription costs.

    When our government created the part D medicare system, it cost him more as he was forced to pay for coverage he already had. It being a deduction from his disability SS income.

    When the government forced the issue, Matt’s personal private insurer droped the prescription coverage from his health insurance….because the government allowed them to do so.

    Any time you need to do a procedure, as it stands now, either medicare or an insurance company will decide whether or not you get it…not you and your doctor.

    Medicare as well as any insurance company will only pay what they consider is enough, to any healthcare provider.

    OK Mart, Ive said enough…I too hope others will join in.

    Steve

  9. saled says:

    My husband worked for 30 years in a physically demanding job, and had health insurance provided by or purchased through his employer. When he could no longer do the job and went out on disability, the health insurance ended. Just at the time when he needed it most, it was gone. Thanks to the fact that I was “grandfathered” uder a clause in the contract I have with the school where I work, I was able to put him on my policy, paying only 20% of the additional cost.

    The town where I live and work is small, and we are currently debating the issue of whether or not to close our elementary school to (hopefully) lower taxes. Is it fair for the taxpayers without insurance to pay for my policy? If not for the cost of health insurance, I don’t think we would be considering closing the school.

    Medicare works great for my 84 year old Mom. If I lose my policy at work, I would like to think that it would be available to my husband, but he is only 50. I read today in our local paper that private insurance spends 25% of their earnings on administration, while medicare spends 6%. Maybe government can do it better.

    I agree with Regina above; it appears that wealthy Americans don’t want to help the average person who may have spent themselves in a service occupation.

    We are blessed in my area to have rural health clinics funded by the government. I know that if I lose my insurance, they will help us all they can. They can’t do the heart surgery that the Canadian went to Florida for, but they will do everything within their power to help. I hope we are not headed for a world where only the rich can have access to life saving procedures. I don’t think we are in that situation yet, but I’m sure there is anecdotal information that will suggest otherwise.

  10. poohpity says:

    If the rich have earned their way by hard work and earned what they have why is it up to them to pay for those who do not work. I do not understand that logic. I do understand the logic that people at times need help. The whole system has flaws but the rich are not the bad guys. The problem lies with a culture that want every thing for nothing and want what they do not have. We have so much in this country that we seem to be ungrateful for. Everything is out of wack in the USA and for that matter in our churches as well.

    I watched a young girl from Romania who was left in the isle of the grocery store to choose a jam or jelly of her choice. She stood there for it must have been 20 minutes and when the family that had taken her in came back to the isle she said you people have so many choices it is hard to make a decision. I think that goes for everything here and it is a blessing to have the freedom to choose, do you want that taken away by a government run system that people from all over the world have run to the United States to be able to have.

  11. rokdude5 says:

    A lot of large church groups have set up hospitals and medical groups. The area where I have seen where the cost is beyond the reach of those groups or individuals is in the area of mental health.

    Those who are so severely affected will incur hospitalization expenses anywhere from $60K to $100K per year. Suicides still rank on the top ten of causes of death which is so tragic because it is preventable. More people die of suicide than those who die on the road. We have seen in previous posts, families who are severely affected by this.

    My heart and prayers go out to them.

  12. Anna777 says:

    I just read the comments up to this point. I have to tell you all that if we were sitting at a table having coffee and you each had just shared your experiences, you would have noticed that I appeared to be dumbstruck. It’s just a reminder, a microcosm, of the challenges and suffering that go on not only in our own country, but through out the world.

    Like many Americans, I have held more than one “career” in my lifetime. I’ve worked as an EMT in an emergency room and medical clinic, 9-1-1 dispatcher, and eventually as an administrator in long term care (assisted livings). Over the years, I’ve observed some things that really stuck with me.

    Please know, before I even say what I am going to say, that I am in no way casting a “blanket judgment” over anyone.

    One thing I noticed when I worked in the emergency room was the number of people that would wait until after five (this would be when all the urgent clinics and doctors offices would close) to come into the ER (f course, urgent cares or doctors offices cost less than ER’s.) More often than not, it would be for things that I would never have dreamed of going to an ER for. And many times the discharge orders would read something like “Use OTC (over the counter) cough syrup. Take tylenol as needed for pain.” I can say this without any hesitation that the people who came in for these kinds of things held no personal responsibility for how the ER bill would be paid. You can figure it out from there. The cost was huge.

    One night, I looked out the ambulance entrance to the ER and noticed a white van backing in the spot reserved for the ambulances. An elderly man (the driver) exited the vehicle. I could tell he had a very heavy heart just by looking at his face. He walked around to the back of the vehicle and, as we were running out to help him, opened the big heavy doors to his old van. I, along with my co-workers, looked inside in disbelief. There laying on twin mattress atop a piece of plywood, was an elderly woman in great distress. They had driven a long way to the hospital from their ranch on the outskirts of town. As we loaded his wife of 64 years onto the stretcher, he told her “We’re okay now Mama. I’ve got you to the hospital.” His main concern was “knowing the cost” of each thing we did so he could make sure he could afford it. He did not want his wife to do without, but he wanted to make sure he could hold up his end of the responsibility. This man made his own ambulance for his wife, when calling for one would have been totally justified. He thought if he could save money on that, he would have more money to help her get better.

    Thirty minutes later, an ambulance pulled up with a woman who had a cold and just didn’t feel like she should drive. She was not concerned in the least about who would pay for the cost of the ambulance and the ER.

    In the clinic where I worked I noticed two things that really stuck with me. The first was how many (not all) of the people who had the state welfare medical coverage took virtually know personal responsibility for their health. Most of the people who paid their way (either through private insurance or out of their pocket as they were uninsured) were very involved in what tests or meds would be ordered, the cost, the side effects, etc. Food for thought.

    The second things was the drug companies. It made me sick when I thought of the people who had no insurance and would do without certain meds due to cost. Then I would see the drug company representatives come in and have all kinds of toys, trips, golf games, very expensive luncheons or dinners, for the docs and staff. The packaging on the drug samples was so expensive and unnecessary it was obviously a huge cost – and for what? It all ran up the cost of the drug itself.

    Deb- I know you mentioned something about the doctors from Canada. I’ve had the opposite experience. The doctors I worked with from Canada seemed to have an excellent handle on medicine. They actually tended to have a bit more of a holistic approach, which always seems to benefit the patient. If anything they were happy that they could actually finally practice medicine. It is quite common for people to come to the U.S. from Canada for medical care. I don’t think it’s because the doctors in Canada are bad. I think it’s just the limitation from their health care system.

    So I guess a fragment of the problem as I see it from my “experience” is that lack of personal responsibility reaps huge negative consequences for the health care system as does greed. As Steve said, we will never have a “Utopia’ as long as we are on this earth. I believe the government is not interested in providing care, but creating dependence.

    Perhaps if the “Church” as a whole focused more on taking care of their own, and “Their own” realized their responsibility to not be takers but to give back in any way they can, we would have more balance. What effect would we have as a church if we just made sure that the kids in our congregation and community had nutritious food to eat, and understood the basics of hygiene? The list could go on, but you get the idea.

    Again, if any of this has sounded like I am casting judgement, I am not. Just reporting what I observed. I have lived with nothing and I have lived with much. I understand what it is like to wonder how I could afford a much needed antibiotic for my kids. I also know what it’s like to have excellent insurance that paid for everything.

    Anna

  13. poohpity says:

    For me, Anna, I think your thoughts were right on. That was what I was trying to get across but sometimes I do not have the right words which you did.

    The doctors I went to in Canada were good the ones I went to hear from there were a different story almost veered to the point of abusive when doing a bladder exam. Just one experience that is not to fit all into that category. The there is good and bad in every profession some care some do not.

    I guess that is the problem here do we deny help to those who abusive the system for the one’s who do not. That would make a good area for change.

  14. saled says:

    I find it hard to believe that any Christian would say health care should only be available to those who have worked for it.

  15. phpatato says:

    Anna…..”It is quite common for people to come to the U.S. from Canada for medical care.”……

    People go to the States to get medical treatment when: 1) they can get the procedure done more quickly (waiting lists for an MRI can take 6 months and other tests are just as long, unless of course it is considered a medical emergency..ASAP)
    2) they have the disposable income to seek treatment outside the country
    3) the procedure they are looking to get has the expertise in the area for which the procedure is being sought…ie: medical breakthrough treatments that aren’t offered/funded in Canada – which is more and more in cancer treatments it seems.

    Also….Canadian doctors have been going to the States to practice because of what I see as a sad sad thing happening in Canada. Take for instance Ontario….we have OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) which is provinicially run with transfer payments coming from the federal government to help with the funding. OHIP therefore limits what doctors can charge them, ie: office visits etc. The amount they get is, in my opinion, pathetic. Doctors spend years in school and training to become Professionals..up to 7 and more if they “specialize”. They often have huge student loans, costs of building a practice etc. OHIP simply does not treat them fairly by paying them what they are worth. In the professional world, the way I see it…Doctors are responsible for SAVING someone’s LIFE…it’s a life or death occupation. A dentist on the other hand, fills a cavity and he is allowed to charge whatever he feels like. A lawyer (soon to be politican) can charge even more..some $250 – $300 AN HOUR (and that’s a fair guess ??) to keep someone from going to jail who should be going to jail. What’s wrong with this picture.

    I don’t begrudge any doctor who “moves on”. It is a sad situation that they have to. Granted, there are those doctors who are only out for the money…going to Hollywood to do facelifts on the rich and famous…but generally, doctors who go south of the border do so on prinicple. And there are good and bad doctors but that is everywhere in any job.

    Bottom line: if these other rich professionals were forced by the government to donate some of their riches into the health care field, then maybe doctors would feel as though they are more appreciated by levelling out the income field.

    But what do I know……..

  16. Anna777 says:

    Saled – I agree with you. We are to reach out to those who are suffering. Finances should never stop someone from getting care. One of the many things I love about realizing our “place” in Christ, is that it seems no one is without merit. All of us have things we can offer. The most amazing thing to me is that even for those who are completely destitute (and I have been close to that) or fully immobilized by paralysis, everyone can pray. As believers, no one is “without” when it comes to be able to contribute to others. I feel badly for those who, because of disease or financial and/or social limitations, feel they are no longer able to “contribute”. Our contribution to each other isn’t always what we can do for others, but what God can work in the lives of others through us and/or our circumstance. I had the opportunity to care for my father, who was ravaged by Alzheimer’s. Most people would have looked at him and thought he was “wasting space on the earth”. I, however, knew that that was not the case. God was using him in ways I could have never imagined. Just a side note … even in the deepest pit of the disease he never forgot the Lord, scripture, or the old songs we used to sing. God is faithful.

    Anna

  17. Ted M. Gossard says:

    I appreciate this post and all the comments. God does hold all people, including societies accountable for their treatment of each other, we see in Scripture. And a society is known by its fruits, just like an individual. In Canada it is considered a right for everyone to have access to healthcare. I would rather have some system like that then have what we have here in the States.

    At the same time, while with the insurance companies the priority seems to be the bottom line, D.C. does appear to be corrupt, and not really working to fix the problem, which is huge. Some would say that’s good, but “we the people” should be represented faithfully by those we elect to enact good laws and policies in the framework of our republic.

    Getting to Jesus, shalom is the outcome of the kingdom of God come and already present in Jesus in the community of God’s people in him. That kingdom is at work in the world so that we need to be an alternative in helping the poor and oppressed, which over and over in Scripture we see to be a top priority of God.

    As for those who refuse to take responsibility, maybe wanting to live off the system, they should go to the basics, getting shelter, but having to start over, getting counseling, etc. Of course above all, the gospel. But people are only helped by knowing they have their place and role to fulfill in society. And for those who take that place there should never lack needed health care. Which “we the people” in this country through the consensus work of our elected officials, work out. Not any insurance company.

    Just my limited thoughts on the matter, and I appreciate everyone’s thoughts here.

  18. Ted M. Gossard says:

    …let me add that when I say D.C. is corrupt I don’t mean at all that there are not good people there in politics, or good intentions. But there is plenty of problems through special interests, money, power, etc. As we are seeing now, very sadly, and actually tragically.

  19. mkparker says:

    As a nurse, I agree with many of the observations Anna777 made in her comments. From a Christian perspective, I would like to add that 1 Corinthians 6:19 says, “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own.” Now, this verse refers to sexual immorality, but why shouldn’t it also refer to the human body as a sacred space—as something to be honored, not corrupted by greed and gluttony?

    Too many chronic illnesses can be traced to treating this “temple” badly: diabetes, joint problems, and heart disease, to name just a few.

    There are many facets to the healthcare reform issue beyond the insurance factor: tort reform; application of evidence-based practices (believe it or not, cancer is one of the least evidence-based practices so we truly have no idea which treatments are best, which offer the best hope, and which ones actually shorten lives—consequently, this makes it one of the most expensive illnesses to treat); and being good stewards of limited resources. I would also add that family dynamics play a huge role in living and dying and decisions about living and dying.

    No healthcare provider wakes up deciding, “This is the day I’m going to kill someone.” That’s why proponents of apologies such as Doug of “Sorry Works” is so important. And anger, righteous or otherwise, can interfere with discussions on difficult conversations. I cannot tell you the number of times we’ve had families who expect their loved ones in the ICU to walk out of the hospital, better than when they walked in. Unreasonable expectations of medicine set everyone up for failure. And when you’re 90 years old and in the ICU, what do you really mean by, “Do everything to keep me alive.” As Christians, we really need to have a discussion on life because our ability to prolong it (albeit artificially) have truly exceeded our abilities to manage it ethically.

    Because Medicare and Medicaid are such huge entities, there are many people who have no problem with defrauding these agencies. Some reports have stated we could cover many uninsured individuals with the funds that could be recovered from prosecuting these thieves. We have a problem with putting a human face on Medicare and Medicaid and making people realize they are stealing from the poor and vulnerable.

    Christ gave his life for us. Many of us walk around every day, completely unaware of (or ungrateful for) the magnitude of this gift. It’s the same thing with healthcare—-if it’s “free” or perceived as having no cost, then it’s subject to abuse by those who don’t understand there is only so much to go around…

    I believe all life is holy and it all has a cost.

  20. pepcea says:

    One of the things I think that is missing on this entire issue is how we as individuals take care of our health. Most of us eat and drink whatever we want, don’t exercise and then expect government or our doctor to take care of us. I think as Christians, we first need to take the best care of ourselves as we can. After all, our body is the temple and we need to care properly for it. I know it isn’t something that we often think about but I was reminded of it as I became ill several years ago and cried out in prayer for help. I was reminded that I need to change the way I care for myself. I began severely limiting junk food, eating much higher amounts of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and lower fat meats and after a while, I started walking for my health. I can’t tell you how much my life improved. I haven’t had a sick day in over 2 years, I’ve lost dozens of pounds and take no prescription medications for the diabetes that I once had. Yes, I pray for our leaders to do the right thing in this matter but what I pray for more is that we, as individuals, would take responsibility for what our part in this is. No one will care for us (except God & Christ) like we will for ourselves. I wouldn’t count on our government.

  21. dshaw says:

    Mart,

    I don’t understand why us believers are having such a problem with this and a host of other political idea’s being presented by both parties. Since we all should be aiming for the truth in love concerning this and many other issues. Our founding fathers understood something, something that I don’t believe many follower’s of Christ to day understand. We are all created by God and given the freedom to choose right or wrong and to succeed or fail, one man’s property is not another’s who did not work for it, charity occurs only with in freedom just the same for faith and love. Jesus was free to choose not to go to the cross and free to go to the cross. That’s how love is demonstrated. Only in freedom can true love be shown for what it is. Freedom we have as human being before we trust Christ and freedom to receive his forgiveness, then we still have the freedom to follow him or walk away after faith in Christ. Again only the truth of the heart of love can be show in freedom. There is something about freedom in God’s mine that I still do not fully understand he took the chance and gave us freedom but we Christians are scared of freedom and very few will preach the truth about freedom the lost has and the children of God have in this life. Sure if we violated God’s order of right and wrong we will suffer the consequences but God still gave us the freedom to choose. Why do us Christian think that we are supposed to tell or fellow man how to live. As I have studied the life of Christ he demonstrated ever day by his actions of love putting into practice to each person he met. I never read where he went around telling people how to live but to believe him the truth and follow him and he will lead the way. The pharisees did a real good job telling people how to live and it is those very people Jesus came down own the hardest.

    We should be supporting freedom in America while we still have it and then with that freedom demonstrate to the world the love of Christ and put or feet, minds and wealth to work to help our fellow man in truth and love, not in transfer of wealth by force taking from one group and given wealth to another group , that has nothing to do with a right relationship and we Christians should see right through what is being presented to us to day in this health care bill and all other entitlements the parties are attempting to create with our earned wealth. Wealth is not created by government and never has been nor will it ever be. Government is a consumer worst that pack-man with out restraint. If we fail to get up and get involved and make a stand for the truth in love and for some of us to run for elected office. We will pay the consequences if we fail to be involved in our culture and so will others.
    The older I get in this walk with Christ since 1974 I seen it is Freedom that allows me to succeed or fail and to learn to get up and become a better follower of Christ. I learned very little during no pain time in my life and freedom allows us to suffer does it not.

    Loving Brother in Christ,

    David Shaw

  22. phpatato says:

    David…”demonstrate to the world the love of Christ and put or feet, minds and wealth to work to help our fellow man in truth and love, “”””not in transfer of wealth by force taking from one group and given wealth to another group”””””….

    Your comment is right on the mark. I am sorry for my comment earlier eluding to this very thing. I honestly didn’t mean it; I guess it’s just that I am bothered that when taking into account the seriousness of each profession, doctors are near the bottom of the list in wage and there is nothing they can do really to change that..here in Ontario anyway. It seems so unfair to me.

    Please accept my apologies for sounding crass (I think that’s the word I am searching for). I should have minded my own business on the topic. As an outsider, it has nothing to do with me at all.

    Pat

  23. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Well, I expect you will all know my opinion on this subject as we in the UK dealt with this issue over 60 years ago.
    This may sound too socialist for many in the good old USA, but everyone has a right, in a modern “civilised” society, to free (at the point of use) health care. Also people have a right to decent housing and free education for all.
    Living in Europe, we could only admire the way the eastern europeans educated, housed, and treated people when they were ill. Even now, after 20 years people go to Poland and Hungary etc. to get good and cheap treatment for some ills.
    Our system is not infalible and does cost quit a bit of dosh to run. it employs a lot of people, at one time it was the second largest employer in Europe, the Red Army in Russia being the largest.
    Yes there is waist, yes there are some waiting lists, yes sometimes the “duty of care” is lacking, BUT if you have a car crash or fall off a cliff you do not have to worry about how to pay, or put together your own ambulance to save cost. I live in a rural area and as you drive round you will see ambulances and paramedics parked on the wayside waiting for emergency calls. We pride ourselves on rapid response times and the level of in ambulance medical care. Also we have air ambulances and Air Sea Rescue that opperate 24×7
    If I lived in the so called richest and most christian country in the world I would be ashamed, look at Cuba and it’s medical care system.
    As Christians you should be calling for radical changes in you society, get rid of guns, get rid of agressive weapons of mass destruction and start caring for your own people.
    Why should someone dieing from cancer have to worry about how the bill is paid or be involed, like Steve, in rangles over cover and payments.
    I know as a nation we spend many times more on Education and Healthcare than we do on defence.
    To Answer Marts question… Yes as Christians we should be involved with this issue and Yes everyone needs o be included.
    You only have to look at New Orleans after hurricane Catrina to see how bad it is in you country.
    I am sorry if I sound a bit angry with you, but I am amased you, as a people even need to ask yourselves the question.

    Bob

  24. poohpity says:

    There is a big difference in our countries Bob including population. Even though we have our difficulties people left other countries because of the problems of suppression with religion and many other freedoms that we offer. No matter what anyone may say about our problems we will get it together and overcome. We will still have more freedom than any other country and will be there when many others turn their backs on the needs of others.

    Hurricane Katrina caused it’s problems but Louisiana is growing strong with a better infrastructure than before the flooding. If one wants to point fingers at government issues I believe your country is far from perfect either and just be thankful you do not live here. I am thankful that I live here with all it’s problems because I am given the right to do something about them and my voice is heard and that is better than having no voice at all.

  25. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Deb,
    I think you will find that the world has moved on a bit since the Boston Tea Party and that, apart from old Yougoslavia, most religious and politcal suppression has long ended in Europe.
    I agree many finacial and politcal refugees seek asylum in the USA but lot’s also seek it in Great Britain as well as other EU states.
    We are over 60 million in population and if a US State would be by far the largest.
    The EU has over 500 million people and is getting bigger all the time with countries like Turkey and the Ukraine wanting to join.
    Most of these countries have some kind of free at the point of use health system and high standards of social care. Germans have to pay 60% tax for their social care and for that they get full sallary redundancy payments as well as exellent hospitals and medical treatment.
    We do not have to contribute quite so much but know we will get good treatment.
    We have private hospitals as well for those who want to pay for hotel style accomadation and maybe fast track treatment, but none of these have ER units or could cope with a national disaster.
    We have hangers on and people who abuse the systems, but Health and Social Welfare do no divide the country across party lines and although different governments tweak the Health Service and Education system, it is considered a national treasure and supported by everyone.
    I had a chance of a job and live in Kansas in 1996 and turned it down because Europe and the UK have much better living conditions than the US.
    To gain respect as a “christian” nation you must start acting like one and begin to address these massive social issues you have.
    To see your President and others debate this issue looked so false on TV.
    Stop asking the question as to what kind of health care you want and, as christians, get on with providing one that works for everyone.

  26. Mart De Haan says:

    Am also wondering whether those of us who are rightly suspicious of government waste and self-serving expansionism don’t need to balance our view by reflecting on what we have learned the last few years about unregulated free market greed and corporate scandal?

    In Romans 13 Paul spoke more positively of a Roman Caesar than many of us speak of the kind of government we hate on one hand and idolize on the other.

  27. SFDBWV says:

    Good job Mart, You have brought to the table an excellent subject, and I think the responces have been very intellegent, honest and in good presentation…Here here to all…

    There are so many sub-subjects that play along with this subject it could be difficult not to get distracted into an entire new subject…as in, Capitalism vs socialism..

    Many opponents to Franklin Roosevelt, thought him to be too much of a socialist. The political mood in Europe swinging farther to the *Left* at the time. Russia,Germany,Spain to name three big ones all changinging it’s national order away from the free enterprise system of government.

    Even our *beloved* ex President John Kennedy’s father while in the office of Ambassador to England, stated that capitalism was over and the new world order was socialism…That statement cost him his job.

    Yet few would argue that the Social Secrurity system if sometimes flawed, is certainly a success. Be it remembered also that during the Presidency of Lyndon Johnson, the money held in reserve for the Social Security system was plundered by him and his *Great Society* programs.

    The thing is that Social Secrurity is remembered as an accomplishment of Presedent Roosevelt and his administration.

    Whereas I did not like Obama, when he ran for the office of president. That really doesn’t matter. What matters now to me is that He will push Congress to enact something, anything as long as it is he who ends up getting the historical recognition for it. I do hope this is not his motive, But rather the best intrests of his countrymen.

    I say that, yet he and his allies may be right in thinking, something is better than nothing.

    All of the fellows we send to Washington have one common goal…getting re-elected.

    We can send any message to Washington by way of how we vote…Problems are that too many of us do not vote, or too many of us are terribly misinformed, politicaly.

    To add to our confusion, we now have the news media influencing how we think.

    Who do we believe?

    If I understand the story correctly,Glenn Beck has told us that if our church is leading us toward socialism, we should get out of that congregation.I don’t really know if that is what he said or not. Though I did read it on the internet news and on Christianity Today…Mr.Beck like me, is entitled to his opinion. I hope he wasn’t misrepresented by the media for his remarks.

    Once again, trying to lace our Christian beliefs into politics creats problems, and divisions.

    If I take Jesus’s teachings to it’s conclusions; Then yes we are to take care of each other.

    If we also take that concept to a democratic government, whereby we are participants, then once again it is yes, we take care of each other, by joining together with our national abilities in accomplishing it.

    The only real power any of us have being that one vote we have to cast.

    God will do what God wants done. Our prayers being offered up in all issues for the best conclusions for all of us.

    The only way for us to make the best choices is to be informed. So we have to wade through the opinions of all the news media as well as the efforts of internet campaigns, and yes listen to what our heart tells us.

    I just hate to see us rush into an action without a real national debate on the issues and then make the best choices.

    Still complex…

    Steve

  28. Anna777 says:

    In Oregon, when I worked at a medical clinic, we had something called “The Oregon Health Plan”. It was for people who were basically low income and needed medical care.

    Most doctors’ did not like it and did not want to accept patients that were on it. Want to take a guess why? Because the majority of the patients on it had very complicated medical cases (diabetes, heart disease, morbid obesity) and the compliance with care was almost nil. These people took no personal responsibility whatsoever for quitting smoking (a rather expensive habit), losing weight, or staying consistent with taking the *free* medications that were supplied to them. They also, in many cases, failed to come in for the *free* labs which were needed to monitor some of the effects of some of the medications.

    I’m just telling you what I saw in the clinic where I worked. There was also a small group of those on the Oregon Health Plan who were very thankful for it and utilized it’s resources as they were meant to be used. For them, it worked. Unfortunately they made up a very small part of the whole as far as consumers of the OHP went and the whole deal went belly up (as it was back then). There is still some form of it but it’s not consistent now with how it was once “meant to be”.

    Bob – Are you serious my friend? Good medical care in Cuba? Why do you think the Cuban people will put fifty people in a 12 man life raft to try to get across those shark infested waters to the US? I’ve got news for you Bob, it’s not because they have good medical care, and it’s not because they have a balanced society themselves. Pardon me, but Cuba is hardly a model to hold up for anything that is good. I see the image of Che Guevara (marxist revolutionist) from Cuba on many of the fashions in the US right now. They act like he’s some kind of a hero. He was a murderer who killed thousands who got in his way. He was a racist. He hated the black race and yet I see young black teens wearing shirts with his picture on them! Help me understand!

    As I have been reading all of these great comments, I have realized how really important it is that I remember to not let our differences about the “non essential” things as believers divide us. Perhaps if I personally, focus my attention more on what I believe God would have me do then I can work more towards the changes in my society/country/world that would honor him. When I say “Non-essentials” I’m not saying this issue isn’t vitally important – I’m just saying it’s secondary to salvation. I would hate to see us get so wrapped up in our “differences” that we forget the one things that binds us all together as believers and that is Jesus.

  29. poohpity says:

    Hey Bob, I am not really into debating whether one country is better than another I enjoy the freedoms I have in this country, period. As far as being a Christian nation that maybe how our forefathers wrote our constitution but on a whole there are people here from all kinds of faiths. We (Americans) have problems as they do in any country and any time it is easier to point a finger at some one else and look at their faults rather than looking in the mirror.

    This whole planet is God’s world whether people believe in Him or not. No matter what country anyone is from we are all in this together and it would be nice if those of us who wear the name of Christ began to show it. Just like anything else in this world some do a good job of it and some do not but it seems easier to look outside of our self than within.

    Greed and self importance are some of the main problems all over the world let’s just call it sin and we are experiencing the results of it. Can we do something about it wherever we are, YES. We need to left the Banner of Christ above anything else and take action.

  30. Anna777 says:

    The other day, I read something that asked the question “Do you practice American Christianity?” As I was in the hospital with my husband for days, I had a lot of time to think about that.

    When I read Mart’s comment ” What I would like to talk with you about is whether fair and affordable health care for everyone is something that followers of Christ should be concerned about.”

    In tying the two together, I realized that, as ashamed as I am to admit it, I think I did practice a form of “American” Christianity”. I guess I’ve kind of realized that in the last couple of years, but I didn’t really “put a label on it”.

    And Mart, in answer to the question referenced above, I certainly do believe that as a follower of Christ, I should be concerned about fair and affordable health care. Sometimes I get frustrated with the government – and then I realize I am the government. We, the people of this country, are the government.

    I’ve made the commitment in my heart to do what I can do to facilitate justice for those that are not able to seek it for themselves. I am an advocate for the elderly (I call them the wise ones). What would happen in our country if each one of us just took one elderly person or just one person that can not speak up for themselves “under our wing”? Many don’t know how to negotiate the system we do have here in America. We don’t need to sit and wait until Washington gets it together – in fact I believe that it’s imperative that we do not wait.

    Our love for Christ should not insulate us from the problems in this world, it should empower us to effect that change that would glorify God and, ultimately, bring the lost to him.

    Anna

  31. InHisHands says:

    Having read through the comments and stories I am thoroughly convinced – Jesus is for health care. He is after all the ‘great physician’ and Scripture shows over and over, the miraculous healings that occurred in the Old and New Testamnets. BUT, as with everthing, whatever man touches he perverts. The Scriptures give wonderful guidelines for keeping the body health, if we ferret out the information and the LORD has given wisdom to the medical professionals – who, by the way, used to be CALLED to serve in that field, but now that it has become a PROFESSION, greed is the purpose that many enter into medical training.

    My son was in the care of the medical institution, when he was allowed to walk out naked in heightened state of aggressive behavior, brought on by the medications they used to treat his seizures – and now he sits in jail waiting to PROVE he does not remember what happened, so he can be realeased. Don’t know how all that fits in this topic, but I believe that hospital should some how be held responsible for his situation – (they were a medical center, not hosptial). Can not figure out why they did not send him to a facility that could handle his treatment rather than allow him to get arrested.

    (for this situation, I still seek your prayers, we don’t have the money for a lawyer and the ‘public defender’ doesn’t not seem to be sure of himself.)

    My hubby and I have good insurance, but still don’t always go to get check ups, because the level of care in this area is substandard, the answer to everything is to give out drugs, drugs and more drugs.

    Hope I haven’t veered off the discussion. I believe Jesus wants His people to have health care – but not at the cost of going against the standards of His Word.

  32. SFDBWV says:

    A few weeks ago a young man from Fedex came to my door. He and I began talking about life and he shared his medical story with me.

    When he was 6 years old, his mother had discovered that he had a brain tumor.

    Because they lived in Morgantown WV they took him to the University Hospital. The Chief of Neurology, Dr Neugent told her to just let the tumor do it’s work and that the boy would die in maybe a year. Believing that he could not survive the cancer.

    His mother was also a nurse, not taking the doctor as the final word, she took the boy to a hospital in Toronto Canada. Whereby they removed the tumor and treated the cancer. This would have been about 1982.

    About the same time, my mother also ended up in the care of the University Hospital in Morgantown. The same doctors told my father, basicly the same thing. Just let her die….she did, three days later.Having recieved no treatment other than giving her a bed to die in.

    17 years later my own son Matthew was life flighted to the same University Hospital in Morgantown, WV from his accident site. Guess what….After the emergency room doctors stabalized him the neurology doctors told me and Matt’s mother, that they needed to call in several specialist’s but they weren’t because he would die anyway.

    I argued with the medical personel and was told well we will see in a few hours. They did not even give Matt pain medication from his massive injuries, for well over 12 hours, because they wanted to assess him neurologicaly.

    Matt was in the ICU for 23 days in a coma. Even when he would respond to me or in one case to an attending nurse. The doctors still would not believe he would awaken from the coma or survive.

    I am telling you all this because, there is a bigger problem in our healthcare system then Congress is going to be able to legislate into law this session.

    Bad doctors and incompetence creates high insurance rates for malpractice insurance. Forcing some doctors to join groups that share the costs but dilute the care.

    Because of successful law suits against people in the medical profession. Insurance companies have influenced lawmakers both at the state and federal levels to limit the ammounts a person can recieve for malpractice.

    Who is the legislator representing, in such legislation? The people in their districts or the insurance company that is forced to pay off on a policy?

    Are we now to trust these same legislators to write a national healthcare policy that will effect us all?

    Lots of problems surround the healthcare issue.

    Steve

  33. EaglePoint119 says:

    Government has become our God – the One to Whom we cry out when we need healing or provision… My husband’s company filed bankruptcy owing us $25,000 – leaving him without a job while I was pregnant and 39 years old… Our insurance company went into receivership… The government receives no glory for the incredible faithfulness God demonstrated to our family as He orchestrated every detail of our lives.
    I want to feel God’s Hands touching my heart – my life… I want to be His hands and feet – providing the needs of those around me.
    This god of government will soon fall to its knees – on its face… Where, then, will the church turn?
    Perhaps, back to God?

    His Word is filled with Promises – far more reliable than those of our

  34. SFDBWV says:

    jorge, I wish to agree with you concerning the issue of many in our society being *over weight* not nessesarily being any fault of their own.

    Would also agree the chemicals we take into our bodies from *safe* foods we buy at the supermarket, as well as the paints, dyes and protective coverings on our clothing and furniture. All can and does cause cancer. Many believe that the magnetic fields that surround high voltage power lines and even cell phones are cancer causers as well.

    Have any of you ever attempted to call the EPA on any environmental matter?

    I have….They don’t care, they don’t help.

    Social issues of all kinds need help. But it is up to us to elect the right people to represent our wishes, and when they don’t, get rid of them.

    Steve

  35. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Jorge,

    You put the case for a social caring society so very well and Luke 10:29-37 is the principal we are to follow.
    The big divide seems to be whether the state/government gets involed or whether it is all allowed to be controlled by market forces.
    All I know is I have lived all my life in a country that has a state run health and social welfare system that is very hard to beat when it comes to service and care.
    We have homeless and we have people on our streets, but whether pauper or rich, you will be treated the same and at no cost when you fall down or collaspe and will not be asked to swipe your credit card or offer your pin number.
    That is what the good Samaritan did and society should be reflecting this.
    I mentioned Cuba earlier, not as a model society, but as a country that offers it’s people excellent health care even though often they can’t afford to eat.
    They risk all to get to Florida because they are after the dollar and also want political freedom.
    We are lucky in Britain to have both a vibrant economy and a large state funded sector and have strived for many years to achieve this.
    There is nothing to fear in goverments taking control and directing economies in order to create wealth.
    China has both direction and market forces just as we do in the UK.
    Maybe more regulation would have eased the “credit crunch” we are now all feeling.
    Anyway this is deviating from the main issue of health care, and as you said Jorge, “It is not hard when you stop and think where Jesus would come down on the issue”.

    Bob

  36. Josephine says:

    As a follower of Christ, all I have to say is WWJD, what would Christ have done in this situation? Just like he told the rich young ruller to sell everything he owned and come follow him, the rich ruller became said and went his way. Lesson to be learned Christ was testing his motives. Are we really Christ followers or are we just so-called Republicans or Capitalist? Why does it profit a man to gain this whole world then loses his soul.
    Universal health care is utmost important because Insurance companies has become a monopoly in our country. In all Hospitals without a plan you can forget being attended to by a physician. What most of you don’t know with a Universal health plan the cost of state medicaid will go down drastically, in turn the Nations deficit would improve. Calmly think about that. I know for certain Christ would have said yes to Universal health care because he was a deffender of the less fortunate. A CEO in an insurance company is making over a million per year and yet a family have to generate a middle income of fifteen thousand out of pocket per year for their premiums. Is that right? People are dying because they make too much to have medicaid and yet because of high premiums they can’t have coverage. It’s not about big cars, or houses, it is about what is right. We have become a very selfish nation and it’s wrong. Because some of you are rich you don’t care about the less fortunate. The blessings that you have be mindful you have it to help others. Thank GOd I have coverage and it’s private. I welcome the Universal plan because many others that do not have it such the working class, the lower middle class will benefit greatly from it. The President mean well, I think people should give him a chance, his heart is in the right place. Amen! Pray for Him that’s what we should do, we should not hope he fails just because he is not white.

  37. poohpity says:

    I do not know where some get their information but I have yet to see where if someone really needs medical help and can not pay for it they will not be denied services. I think where the problem lies as I have said before is lack of proper information and ignorance. I wish that those who have received medical care without the money would speak up because there are those this has happened to. We hear the complaints of the few and not the stories of the many who have been helped. There are all kinds of programs out there for low and reduced cost care for those who need it. The regulations need to happen with the insurance companies they are the ones who have denied coverage not the doctors. Care providers increase the costs because they can and insurance companies pay. There is more to this issue if one will take the time to read the thousands of pages of this bill and the items it addresses. You will be shocked what it contains and asks the tax payers to pay for, things you may not even believe in. Educate yourself on this bill then you will be better informed to see if you want it or not.

    It is like people pulling scripture out of context to apply it for whatever their reasons may be but not to the glory of God.

    I would like to ask how many of you have read any of this bill? Or are the things just hear say that you say you know.

  38. floydhart says:

    This is my first time commenting on the health care reform bill. I think we should pass it and pass it now. It is not a perfect bill, but it does represent the larger majority need for many people who need help now. I do pray everyday for our country’s leaders. I am not in a hurry to judgement others. We all make mistakes. And we all can learn from those mistakes. Passing a health care reform bill that is not perfect is a mistake we can afford to make. We need to be a giver like our God who says in John 3:16, “God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son.” God is a giver and if we want to experience a new level of hope in health care reform for thousands of Americans we must learn to give a little and work together with others for the benefit of all. I want our Senators and Congressional respresentatives to think about the American citizens who are having a rough time and need them to give a little to get the job done.

  39. poohpity says:

    Mart, I believe that was 1 Timothy and not 2 Timothy. 2 Tim 2:3,4 says; “Endure suffering along with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 Soldiers don’t get tied up in the affairs of civilian life, for then they cannot please the officer who enlisted them”. That sounds very suitable for this topic we are enlisted in the Lord’s army but does that mean we do not stay informed. I was considering my feelings towards others about the health reform thing/our country and I honestly felt myself becoming frustrated so I started to think how is this good for my spirit. So I reread the topic and found I was really off track.

  40. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Just been reading “Our Daily Bread” and about the battle of gettysburg. Now we are taught very little about your history but one thing struck me here.
    “Had the Confederate troops gotten past Chamberlain’s men, some historians believe the Union army would have been surrounded—possibly leading to the loss of the war.”
    We abolished slavery after much debate and hard work by one man, William Wilberforce. He spent all his life persuading people that slavery was wrong and four days before he died the act of parliament was signed.
    I do understand that in the USA the need for slaves was seen as an economic nessesity by the plantation owners in the south and was a British legacy left over from the colonial days.
    The war was won but also there were loosers. It was a victory for common sense and the government of the day.
    It took another 100 years and another great man, Martin Luther King Jnr, plus a young girl on a bus in Allabama, to actually finish the job and bring real freedom from oppression to Afro Americans. Now you have Barrack Obama in the white house and the cival war is fully over.
    Now this same federal government is trying to set people across your nation free again. The poor people and those, who by no fault of their own, have got caught in a trap of being ill and unable to pay. It is like being thrown into debtors prison when you owe money, how do you pay if you can’t work?
    Now it seems to me there is another cival war going on here between those with conviction to do something to free these people, and those who have controll of the money/wealth and it suits them to keep the status quo.
    This war has to be won by reason as was the abolishon of slavery in Britain. Plus whatever happens it will take a long time until it all falls into place and you achieve the goals you set out for.
    As with the principal of freedom for all, take this need for universal medical care for all. embrace it, give it to God, and work it out ’till the result is right for all. I hope it does not take one hundred years this time though.

    Bob

  41. SFDBWV says:

    Bob, Like so many other Americans who live in or near the battlefields and ashes of the American Civil War. It is one of my passions.

    England allied itself with the Confederates (Rebels) for the same economic reasons that many southern states were concerned about. But slavery was not the cause of the war. It became an issue well after war began.

    However, there is a lot of social ills that created people who were left behind in the growth of America. All to the shame as well as the debate as to how to fix those past and present mistakes.

    If we look to the scripture for example, we see a great deal of people who were what we might call, have and have nots…

    The laws of Moses attended to charity as well as the ownership of slaves. Even to the extent of laws how slaves were to willingly and dutifully to carry out their work. As well as how slave owners were to treat their slaves.

    Going on, we see that the story of Ruth is an example of what we might call charity offered to those willing to work for it.

    Paul said that a man who won’t support his family is worse than an unbeliever. Also he stated that, if one won’t work then he should not eat…

    I am only giving these few Bible examples to show that there is a responsibility from all members of society to do their part to contribute to that society. Not just take from it as a parasite does.

    Yet no civilized society would just set back and allow for people to starve to death or go unattended to for health reasons. There are many organizations as well as government programs to take care of such people.

    This debate about healthcare, is about changing the way we provide healthcare for all those who have paid their way so that those who haven’t can have the same without paying for it…This may sound cold but it is what the arguement is all about.

    Who pays for it.

    So we must move slowly to reach the best conclusions, not rush into it for the sake of petting the egos of politicians.

    Steve

  42. MGNelson says:

    I believe Jesus is saddened that this has even become an issue. As a number of people have pointed out, Jesus healed sick people numerous times. No money changed hands for this healing, he healed rich and poor alike.

    My family has had both farmers and human medical health professionals in it. Food and health care, two very important needs in a person’s life. But the reimbursement for the two professions cannot be more different and the final cost to the consumer (patient) are very different. How is it farmers have to accept prices dating back to the early 1900’s for their commodities but health care costs have skyrocketed since that time period?

    I myself am a veterinarian and frequently we purchase from our vendors drugs that are labeled for human use-of course they are used on the pets. Common drugs that cost pennies to purchase are sold in human pharmacies for dollars a pill/capsule. Some procedures we veterinarian perform on animals are extremely similar to those performed on humans, but at a fraction of the price.

    The human medical and pharmacy lobbyists have done a bang up job convincing us and congressmembers that their services are essentially priceless. Therefore we and congressmember have accepted the prices they set without so much as a whimper when we should have taken care of this decades ago.

  43. Lively says:

    Steve – I agree with you that:

    “This debate about healthcare, is about changing the way we provide healthcare for all those who have paid their way so that those who haven’t can have the same without paying for it…This may sound cold but it is what the arguement is all about”

    The truth is, those of us with insurance are paying for it right now. Those of us who pay taxes pay are paying for it right now. At least, we pay for emergency care. What I’m hopeful this law will do is allow for those people who can’t afford preventative care to get it.

    For example, my hubby is at the edge of kidney failure and he will need a transplant soon. Because of lack of insurance, not due to not working, but because his job didn’t offer insurance and he couldn’t afford private insurance – he lived with extreme high blood pressure that progressed the kidney disease more quickly than it should have to this point. If he had been able to “afford” the preventative care, it would have bought 10-15 years before intervention was needed.

    You know that saying, charity should begin at home, it’s wrong. Charity should begin in the hearts and minds of people. Those of us, who have been blessed with much, should give much. Yes, there are some people who will abuse the system – but they already do and we already pay for it. Just as laws are more for the lawless, not the “just” – we need something for those honest hardworking people who, though no fault of their own do not have insurance.

    I believe we should, as Christians, support healthcare reform. We’re told to support, to “look after widows and orphans” (James 1:27) Frankly, I might become a widow and my children fatherless because of the lack of available healthcare for my husband when he was younger – if this bill could prevent that for another family – I’m all for it.

    My one sticking point – and it is a deal breaker – is abortion. If it’s in, I’m out 100% – there’s no middle ground for me.

  44. poohpity says:

    I will ask again. Have any of you who have commented on the health care reform bill read it?

  45. SFDBWV says:

    Mart in rereading your opening remarks, You ask the question,” Whether fair and afordable health care for everyone is something that followers of Christ should be concerned about.”

    Simple answer…Yes!

    However, over the past couple years time and time again the topic and subject comes up as to whether or not we as Christians should concern ourselves aith political issues. By being citizens of Heaven and a coming Kingdom. Should we still hold on to the citizenship of our respective countries.

    Time and time again we divide ourselves because we see the world differently. A topic we also discussed. Seeing as we are. Being who we are because of where we came from.

    Straining to see how Christ wants us to see a political issue, I am sure is colored by all the same issues that make up how we think and see the world around us.

    All I have read and understand from both the old and new testements, instructs me to be a responsible and contributing citizen to wherever God has placed me here in this world.

    Having said that, I feel it is God’s will for me to live and contribute to the society I live in, in accordence to all of Biblical teachings of good proper behavior and good Christian behavior as well in all that I do.

    Only when the government is in disobediance to God’s will, am I to not join in willingly by agreeing to participate.

    The story of Daniel, as well as his three companions being one such example.

    So yes, as a Christian I should be concerned about the heath care issue, and also as a citizen I should try to influence my government to do the will of God, not the will of people.

    Citing the story of Aaron and the golden calf, as my leading example…

    Health care for every one…yes….everyone being a responsible and a contributing citzen…yes also.

    Steve

  46. Lively says:

    MGN – I read an article by a vet not too long ago (Friday, I think) about the same issue – eye opening to say the least.

    Bob in NC – I was talking to my Mom about that last night. Our gov’t is no longer, “By the people, for the people.” Until we elect people other than career politicians that will not change. I said to her last night until there was a grass roots movement to put normal common sense folks in at least the House of Reps and we kick special interest out of Washington, we don’t have a “snowball’s chance in hell” of seeing change. Can you imagine? One election year a new “party” – People for Democracy – common sense “normal” people – teachers, salesmen, carpenters, office workers, ANYONE (except career politicians) with a desire to see this country again be FOR the PEOPLE turning the House of Representatives BACK to actually representing the people who elected them.

  47. Hugger4U says:

    Jesus said we would always have the poor with us. We are to love them and take care of them as we are lead to do. Our government is about to FORCE us to do this which is not what Jesus commanded. We freely received so we should freely give, not be enslaved to the government and have it force us to give. We are little by little giving up all our freedoms. Here is a sermon I recently received in an email.

    Genesis 47:13-27

    I would love to give the Pastor of this predominantly black church in Virginia a hug and a high five. This guy is obviously a leader.

    Perhaps we should each decide who our real leader is…..It is amazing to see that very little has changed in 4,000 years.

    —————————————————

    Good morning, brothers and sisters; it’s always a delight to see the pews crowded on Sunday morning, and so eager to get into God’s Word. Turn with me in your Bibles, if you will to the 47th chapter of Genesis, we’ll begin our reading at verse 13, and go through verse 27.

    Brother Ray, would you stand and read that great passage for us? ….

    (reading)…

    Thank you for that fine reading, Brother Ray… So we see that economic hard times fell upon Egypt , and the people turned to the government of Pharaoh to deal with this for them. And Pharaoh nationalized the grain harvest, and placed the grain in great storehouses that he had built. So the people brought their money to Pharaoh, like a great tax increase, and gave it all to him willingly in re! turn for grain. And this went on until their money ran out, and they were hungry again.

    So when they went to Pharaoh after that, they brought their livestock -their cattle, their horses, their sheep, and their donkeys – to barter for grain, and verse 17 says that only took them through the end of that year..

    But the famine wasn’t over, was it? So the next year, the people came before Pharaoh and admitted they had nothing left, except their land and their own lives. “There is nothing left in the sight of my lord but our bodies and our land. Why should we die before your eyes, both we and our land? Buy us and our land for food, and we with our land will be servants to Pharaoh..” So they surrendered their homes, their land, and their real estate to Pharaoh’s government, and then sold themselves into slavery to him, in return for grain.

    What can we learn from this, brothers and sisters?

    That turning to the government instead of to God to be our provider in hard times only leads to slavery? Yes.. That the only reason government wants to be our provider is to also become our master?

    Yes.

    But look how that passage ends, brothers and sisters! Thus Israel settled in the land of Egypt , in the land of Goshen .. And they gained possessions in it, and were fruitful and multiplied greatly.” God provided for His people, just as He always has! They didn’t end up giving all their possessions to government, no, it says they gained possessions! But I also tell you a great truth today, and! an ominous one.

    We see the same thing happening today – the government today wants to “share the wealth “once again, to take it from us and redistribute it back to us. It wants to take control of health care, just as it has taken control of education, and ration it back to us, and when government rations it, then government decides who gets it, and how much, and what kind. And if we go along with it, and do it! willingly, then we will wind up no differently than the people of Egypt did four thousand years ago – as slaves to the government, and as slaves to our leaders.

    What Mr. Obama’s government is doing now is no different from what Pharaoh’s government did then, and it will end the same. And a lot of people like to call Mr.. Obama a “Messiah,” don’t they? Is he a Messiah? A savior? Didn’t the Egyptians say, after Pharaoh made them his slaves, “You have saved our lives; may it please my lord, we will be servants to Pharaoh”?

    Well, I tell you this – I know the Messiah; the Messiah is a friend of mine; and Mr. Obama is no Messiah! No, brothers and sisters, if Mr. Obama is a character from the Bible, then he is Pharaoh. Bow with me in prayer, if you will…

    Lord, You alone are worthy to be served, and we rely on You, and You alone. We confess that the government is not our deliverer, and never rightly will be. We read in the eighth chapter of 1 Samuel, when Samuel warned the people of what a ruler would do, where it says “And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”

    And Lord, we acknowledge that day has come. We cry out to you because of the ruler that we have chosen for ourselves as a nation. Lord, we pray for this nation. We pray for revival, and we pray for deliverance from those who would be our masters. Give us hearts to seek You and hands to serve You, and protect Your people from the atrocities of Pharaoh’s government.

  48. poohpity says:

    Mart’s question; “Do we know the truth?”

  49. poohpity says:

    Steve that was a statement that Mart opened with followed by this question, “Are we responding with the wisdom of our Lord? Or are we entangled with the rest of the nation in the current bitter political, partisan, stalemate? Are we among those who think party loyalty and talking points are a way of promoting the interests of our God?”

  50. pegramsdell says:

    I am not praying as I should for the people. I ask God for wisdom and favor, but not so much for the people He made. Most of the time, just for my own family and friends. The prayers of the righteouse avails much.
    Thank You Lord for reminding me that I am here for a reason. And one of those reason is to pray for others. :)

  51. Lively says:

    poo – I don’t think we do.

    One truth I do know. This issue is causing a divide and that, to me, seems more like the devil’s work – not God’s.

    And, to answer *your* question (I meant to earlier lol). No I haven’t read it. I’ll tell you why I haven’t – I know this is out of my hands – it does me no good to get angry and upset over something that I have no control over. Personally, I’ve just been praying that whatever happens with it that it is God’s will and that if it is “evil” or “wrong” that He will protect those I love from it.

    It’s also why I refuse to listen to the “rabble rousers” who are trying to work many into a froth about this stuff.

  52. poohpity says:

    Lively, you can do something. You can call your representatives and Senate and tell them how you would like them to vote.

    Thank you for being honest about reading the bill actually you pretty much have to be a lawyer to understand it. LOL

  53. poohpity says:

    Those simple steps, I feel, can be done without an attitude of conflict. Reading and calling. Then we are in truth by reading it and we have done it in love by calling. Then as peg said, “PRAY”.

  54. poohpity says:

    Or pray first!!

  55. Lively says:

    Poo – I honestly wish I believed that contacting my so called representatives would make a difference – but from past experience, I know it doesn’t.

    I’m in VA – the general assembly just passed a “law” that prohibits the gov’t from mandating that everyone must have insurance.

    As usual, what began as a good idea has turned into a partisan spitting contest with special interest providing the spit. It’s truly a nasty business.

  56. poohpity says:

    It does make a difference your voice is heard in love. When you call tell them the areas you do not agree with. If one does look at the bill you will find that what the name of the proposed bill, does not even measure up with it’s content. I think that if enough people call with the areas of disagreement then that may help to write a new one instead of just complaining about all of it. That will benefit those who do want changes in areas of the bill without throwing the whole thing away.

    It is just like reading the bible people do not read it all the time yet say things and use parts of it without knowing the principles and applications then misuse it to make their points.

  57. poohpity says:

    The thing is “Truth”. I guess some do not really want to know the truth and that has been what has got us to the place we are now by not doing anything but complaining and if that is the only action we take shame on us as Christians first and American citizens second.

  58. poohpity says:

    The bible is very forthright about grumbling and complaining. I hate to say I am very good at those but am starting to pray each day that the words of my mouth be encouraging and uplifting which benefits the Kingdom.

  59. dependent says:

    Guess I’ll zero in on Mart’s “fair and affordable health care for everyone”. Who could be against such a noble idea? Kind of like “liberty and justice for all.”

    Problem is, of course, in the myriad definitions that each of us will place on the terms “fair” and “affordable” and “everyone”. And how those terms are defined, in a system that allocates *limited resources* based on free enterprise, is what we as a nation must decide.

    Is a ‘safety net’ level of access “fair”? Or do we mandate equal access to the state-of-the-art machines, most competent professionals and facilities that the rich enjoy? Does “all” mean anyone who can make it inside the borders of the nation?

    The healthcare industry has made the kind of advances we’ve seen because of the incentives that our free-market system provides for people to strive to be the top researchers, inventors, surgeons, etc.

    When we make access to the fruits of the best and brightest risk-takers a “right” we’ve turned the choice from ‘fair AND affordable’ to ‘fair OR affordable’.

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the Body of Christ was known as the “go to” institution for compassionate healing. A place where ‘agape fellowship’ and mutual accountability provided a practical ‘safety net’ that no government “right” could match. A place where the risks inherent to this ‘unfair’ world were better mitigated than anything we purchased from an insurance company.

    But how many of us would be willing to take on those very personal costs?

  60. dependent says:

    A nation of free citizens has given its government the right to forcibly extract a portion of the wealth they each produce in order to provide for the common good.

    Further, that nation has also consented for its government to borrow wealth from future generations to meet today’s demands.

    And Christ-followers among those citizens, in light of biblical principles of stewardship and compassion, are collectively asking an ancient question posed to their Redeemer:

    Luk 10:29 But the expert, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

    Is it morally justified to borrow from one neighbor, what you cannot pay, in order to care for another neighbor that is in need?

  61. Lively says:

    Poo – I’m honestly not grumbling about my experience in dealing with gov’t officials. I am just stating the facts about how in the past the person who took the “message(s)” for my representative was obviously bored and did not care to take the time to hear what I had to say about a certain issue. My follow up letter listing my concerns about a certain piece of legislation was simply a form letter and said nothing about my concerns. Frankly, I doubt my congressman or my representative even “heard” my concerns. No grumbling, just my perspective because of how I’ve been treated in the past.

    Not just for Poo – All I know is, there is a need in the country. Good hard working people are drowning in medical debt, having their credit history destroyed and these people actually have insurance. They are hard working members of society who are trying to support their families.

    Personally, I know of at least 5 families that are in trouble. Cancer, Lyme disease and heart issues are the causes.

    There must be a better way.

    But, do I think it’s our Christian duty to ensure that all have coverage? Yes, and no.

    Maybe we Christians should just create our own “Insurance company” and insure Christians only… after all, we should at the very least support our brothers and sisters in that way – but what would the test be? Can *you* prove that you’re a Christian? Only if you go to church at least 5 times a month? I just don’t see how that would work – but morally we should do everything we can to make sure that our fellow Christians have those needs taken care of.

    dependent – we already do “borrow” like that. Make no mistake that *everyone* pays for the uninsured via taxes, high costs of care etc. The lower the median income of an area, the higher the cost of medical care. Someone has to cover the costs of those who can’t afford care but go to the emergency room. And, normally they are much sicker if they had been able to go to a clinic (and access to meds) to be taken care of before it became a serious issue.

    The true question is, **Is medical care a right or is it a privilege?**

    If it is a right, then we should ensure it is available to all at a fair and equitable cost. If not, then I suggest demand that our taxes no longer go to pay for it for those who can’t afford it. Further, we should demand that hospitals turn away everyone who don’t have insurance and can’t prove the ability to pay.

  62. poohpity says:

    On Cspan today I heard a congressman say; “Let’s just get this thing passed and then we can come in later and make changes”. I am not saying this is an exact quote but really close. Now how sad is that.

  63. saled says:

    Do we know the truth? Are there other countries providing national health care in a way that’s more humane? Bob from England would suggest yes.

    Have I read the present version of the health care bill? No. I’ve left that for my senators, Snowe and Collins. Yes, I’ve e-mailed them. No, they haven’t always voted the way I want. Writers to our local paper say these two, well respected ladies have been bought off by the private insurance lobbyists. Do we know the truth? No. Would it be fair for the American people to have the same health insurance as our senators? Yes.

    Should our goal be fairness, or to give everyone what they need. Is it true that there would not be enough to go around if we tried to give everyone what they needed?

    The question is not “Is medical care a right or is it a privilege?” The question is “Do we WANT medical care to be a right or do we WANT it to be a privilege?”

  64. Lively says:

    Saled – much better question!

    Poo – I heard that the other day. As much as I desire change, the fact that they are saying, “trust us, we’ll fix what’s wrong” would seriously scare me if I really believed they had the final say – Thank God that He’s the ONE!

  65. Josephine says:

    Medical health plan is a must & it’s right. I believe most, if not all civilized nations has universal health plan with the exception of the greatest country in the world, what a shame on the good old U.S.A.
    Think about it, millionaires are dying & they can’t take their millions with them. You’ve some that would love to have a descent health plan because of pre-existing condition, for certain they will be denied, & unfortunately they may eventually died from their conditions like many others. Let us not be like the unjust judge, because he was so bothered, eventually he gave in. Needless to say the selfishness of many would lead many others to suffer.
    Most of you realized, some people are out of work. Therefore, they can’t afford health care, because their unemployment check is to high for gov’t medicaid. If they are not on disability or retired medicaire would not even acknowledge them. Some families might even be able to afford Cobra, that is after the company laid-off their workers, the people are able to continue their policy with their previous employers for a minimal price.
    This is the situation with many of us, if it has not hit home, why should we give a care. What happen with Am I my Brothers keeper? As believers, & as Christians that should be a yes. I am surprised as to what so many so-called Christ followers are saying against Universal Health Plan. Like the Word says, it’s better for a Camel to go through an eye of a niddle then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Previously mentioned, you may have billions, or millions, you certainly can’t put any of it in the four by four that you will be placed in, so, you might as well become a distribution center with it, and help those that are in need.
    The first lady is doing a great thing with that health & fitness thing she has going on. The bottom line is, our nation for the most part is out of shape.
    Nutritionist food are expensive, I know, because I eat right, mostly fruits & vegetables. If our main streams were to take better care of their temple, doctors would probably have to find another profession. calmy think of that!

  66. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    This is my last word on the subject as listening to this debate saddens me and I quote Josephine,
    “Medical health plan is a must & it’s right. I believe most, if not all civilized nations has universal health plan with the exception of the greatest country in the world, what a shame on the good old U.S.A.”

    You stand by your principles of free choice and free trade yet you walk by on the other side and let millions of your own people suffer just because you think something is morally wrong. Does that remind you of some religious people Jesus called hypocrits.

    Let me tell you a story that you won’t like to hear about the greedy and wealth building culture you have.

    After world war two Britain was on it’s knees, we had given our all for the defence of freedom and the liberation of many countries from tirany.
    There were plans drawn up during the 30’s and 40’s to create in Britain a place where everyone would be cared for. After the war this became urgent and a radical plan was set in motion to make our nation fit for those who had just given up so much.
    When we looked in the coffers we realised we were bankrupt and could not afford any reforms.
    We came to your government cap in hand, the only ones with any capital after such devestaion, and you refused to lend us any money. Then we pleaded again and you put such conditions on the loan that we had no choice but to dismantle every vestage of our trading empire in order to meet your demands and pay you back.
    Our faith in what we were building, Free hospital and medical care for all regardless of back ground, wealth etc. was that important to us.
    We now have a system where anyone can come to our country, within reason, and get treatment, and are proud of it!
    But it has taken us ’till the mid 1980’s to pay you back for all the lend lease stuff you provided during the fighting and the “loan” from 1946 was not fully paid back ’till the 21st century.
    In the meantime you enjoyed from 1950’s onwards a boom situation and your large coorparations went all over the world exploiting the “rebuild” left over from the war and also lived off of the interest charges from loans. We were still on rations in the year I was born 1953. We then had a radical release and freedom change in our society in the 60’s but still had little wealth again ’till Maggies 80’s boom.
    We gave our all for freedom and also gave our all to provide social freedom and equality for our people at home.
    The tide is turning and the wealth of this planet has moved to the east and all western countries have to borrow from China and the like. Even India is becoming a great world player.
    If countries that are far poorer than yourselves think it is worth the cost to provide for their own with health care and the like, why can’t you the once so called “greatest nation on earth”, your title not mine.
    The world is laughing at your inability to grasp such a simple concept.
    Bob

  67. Mart De Haan says:

    Being a one language American, my translation skills might be really rough– but thought I’d give it a try, so that you can show me what I need to brush up on :-)…

    No more taxes= (equals) Caesar has no right to our hard earned money…regardless of what Jesus said in Matt 22:21

    Government wastes and ruins what it tries to do= (equals) we’d rather forgive what unregulated capitalism has just done to our economy… and give the conservative corporate face of Wall Street the benefit of the doubt so that we can resist Washington… regardless of what Paul wrote in Romans 13…

    We don’t need more government= (equals) we believe that good, hard working free Americans can decide for ourselves what is best– regardless of what we read in Judges when it says, ” In those days there was no king in Israel: “Every man did that which was right in his own eyes” (Judges 21:25).

    Government needs to reflect our Christian roots= (equals) we want government in some people’s bedrooms, but out of our pockets…

    We need to accept responsibility for our own health and the costs of our bad choices= (equals) mercy isn’t really that important… and some unknown author probably wrote a fictional ending to the story of Job… it’s common sense that his friends were right. Even though Job wouldn’t see it, people like him get the financial and health issues they deserve…

    If anyone should be taking care of the poor, it’s the churches= (equals) But only when our churches can overcome the lack of love we’ve shown one another– and work together across denominational lines– to spend our income on social programs… that might require that we change our church constitutions…and rethink our mission… oh…. I don’t know.. where I’m going on this one :-)…

    Or am I just not listening?

  68. Lively says:

    LOL@Mart on the last paragraph.

    It’s a true tangle, isn’t it? I know someone will correct me if I’m wrong – doesn’t the Bible say that a man who *won’t* (not can’t mind you) work won’t eat?

    So, do we help the “good for nothing, welfare mooching, lay abouts”?

    Or, do we allow good people to suffer because of those same people?

  69. Puddleglum says:

    To “Bob in Cornwall”.
    You just hit the nail right on the head and drove it in with one stroke.Good for you brother.
    I’m just a dumb Canadian eh!
    Oh by the way. Not only do we have olympic gold in hockey…. We aso have health care.

    Puddle

  70. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, dear friend,

    The people who lived under the dictatorial rule of Ceaser had no voice in whether they paid taxes or how it was spent.

    Jesus as always was correct in telling us to submit unto Ceaser that which belongs to him and give to God that which belongs to him. One could argue the case that everything belongs to God.

    When we look deeper into the disaster that occured on Wall Street we also see that the government regulatory agencies failed to protect the American economy as well.

    When God sent the children of Israel into the promised land, they had no government except the laws of moses and their religious structure to enforce it. Only when Israel rejected this form of government did God tell them that their choice would result in a king who would make them pay taxes and conscript an army from among them.

    Yes, if our freely elected form of government truly represents us, then it should reflect our Christian roots.

    Do you think that the government take over of the healthcare in America will create better healthcare for all of it’s citizens?

    Do you believe that all hospital employees including doctors and nurses should become civil servants?

    Do you believe that there should be a limit on incomes that doctors and nurses can earn?

    I say yes to heathcare for all….but lets take a slow and cautious approach to what freedoms we may lose if we aren’t careful. By rushing into a politicaly generated sense of urgency.

    Steve

  71. sbrewster says:

    As I sit here in Washington, DC reading this morning, I’m not sure I have much to add, but I would like to share that I am not sure what should be done, but I know something must be done and I don’t think we can wait for all the denominations to revisit their church constitutions and come together and sing hallelujah. I think churches are having a hard enough time convincing people to tithe. And Mart some of your questions at the onset make me ask if the church is any better at being held financially accountable and appropriating social programs. You are quick to point out what people might do with their money instead of buying expensive cars and televisions, but there’s not been a pastor’s house I’ve been in that wasn’t arrayed with the finest and many of them drive around in cars much more expensive that I may ever be able to afford and they fly back and forth on private jets they own and have houses that are modern day palaces. Why should we trust that the church could do it better???

    As I type this, I’ve just put my child with autism on an hour and a half long bus ride to school because that is the nearest school available to meet her needs. We know of no Christian school that serves the special needs population. Our health insurance does not cover the only treatment that has been shown to be effective in treating autism – I know of no health insurance plan that covers autism treatment regardless of how much the premium. Is it really realistic to think the church could handle any better all the diverse social and educational needs of the population???

    In a few minutes, I will embark on my daily routine to care for my aging mom who lives with us because she can no longer live independently. My dad worked himself into an early grave at 58 many years ago. We cannot afford to put mom in a nursing home and we really don’t want to. She has had several hospitalizations over the years. I used FMLA and hire nursing help to care for her while my husband and I worked full-time jobs. Last year, I was forced out of my job after my last FMLA stint – yes, I know that’s illegal but there are ways to do things and big business knows just how to do it.

    For now we are on subsidized COBRA, but that will not last forever – maybe another 8mos. Then we will be thrown into the sea of the uninsured. Will the church help us obtain new health insurance???? I have no doubt the good sincere intentions might be there, but we don’t won’t welfare not even from the church. Most of us don’t like handouts and I don’t think the American people are asking for one. We want to be able to raise solid families, care for our loved ones and not spend every waking minute worried that we can’t even with the jobs we do have.

    I do not like everything that is going on around this issue in DC, but something must be done – and not later.

    If the church wants to lead the way, then it should do that and not wait for the scales to tip-over to say “what the church should be doing”. It seems a little disingenuous.

  72. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Puddle,
    Yes well done on both counts and well done for having a Nation that is inclusive of all it’s peoples and recognises their rights as individuals and as “national” groups.
    Seems the British and the French Canadians can work together better than us old world types over here.

    Mart,
    I may be wrong but I detect a bit of cynicism in your interpretations above.
    When the good Samaritan helped his fellow man he did not ask lots of questions like, are you pro life? Are you a lazy good for nothing? Have you got a fat bank account so I can get my money back? NO! he did not. He just took the man to a place where he would be looked after and handed over the money. He even trusted the inn keeper not to rip him off and offered to pay more on his return.
    WE have no idea whether the ill man said thanks or whether he went back to some kind of immoral life. That is not our concern as a neighbour.
    The same applies to Proper Health Care. While it can ask questions to diagnose and even prevent future illness it has no right to probe into someones morals and decide who should have teatment.
    When you say you want fair and affordable healthcare for all, it means what it says on the packet.
    Fair, affordable(if not free) and for all.

    Bob

  73. Lively says:

    Bob in Cornwall –

    I do take a bit of umbrage regarding how you characterize the good old US.

    First, *both* of my parents came here from England. My father, came in the mid 1950’s because he was Cockney born and couldn’t find work after he discharged from the Merchant Navy after serving in WWII. My mother came over because my grandfather came over in the 1960’s after the textile industry began to have serious issues over there. I am the very first American in my family, ever. But, I am very proud of my English roots.

    My history is a bit rusty, but correct me if I’m wrong here – but didn’t England exploit just a few countries in her “golden age” when the sun never set on the Empire? Maybe even force feed a few of her own “ideals” on a couple of places? Boer War, Sepoy Mutiny and India in general come to mind. Seems to me, that America was the tipping point in Europe that stopped you all from becoming a part of Germany. And when I think of how America began, it seems to me that to cast stones over the pond seems to be a bit short sighted in history.

    Frankly, I have a hard time coming to terms with the healthcare system there was meant to be for everyone – my dad left because he was still being discriminated against because of the fact that he was born within earshot of Bow Bells. Maybe it has evolved to that, but I know that discrimination was alive and well. Furthermore, that was the first of many personal freedoms that Europe has given up. Americans are generally fierce in defense of what we believe to be our personal rights and freedoms. I believe we mostly agree that something needs to be done, but I think most of us don’t want to make some of the same mistakes that Europe did (written before I read what Steve wrote – obviously I agree with him on taking it slower!).

    I think it’s a shame you say that the world is laughing. I’m sure that there were many who delighted when this country was plunged into the biggest recession since the Great Depression – I’m sure that many felt it was comeuppance for our greedy, money grubbing ways. That’s really kind of sad.

  74. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Stacy,

    I have very little time today as my ex partner was rushed into our free hospital yeterday by free ambulance and has undergone some free tests and hopes to be sent home tomorrow to continue his free treatment and drugs.
    I am driving up to the hospital with some personal stuff so he is more comfortable tonight.
    I know which part of the world I want to live in!

    Bob

  75. pegramsdell says:

    sbrewster, sounds like you have your hands full. I will be praying for you and your family. You sure know what it’s like to lay your life down for someone else don’t you. Praying for you to have favor from The Lord. :)

  76. Mart De Haan says:

    On the “we the people” = “we’re the government” I keep wondering whether, if Paul were to come back today, he would say, “OK, I get it, in this “American experiment” the “you the people” are the government. So there’s no “Caesar” outside of yourselves that you need to respect or “fear” as “the servant of God” to provide i.e. infrastructure, law and order, roads, security, health care etc.”

    Something tells me that, once the election is over, our current president is = to Caesar. Or, maybe, the President + Congress + The Court = Caesar…

    Yet the mood of many including those who “belong to Christ” seems to be Government is the problem. How does that fit our world view?

  77. SFDBWV says:

    sbrewster, My sympathy for you as well as my congradulations for doing the right thing with your mother, and doing the best you can for your son. In my opinion, God will bless your efforts.

    I too found myself in the COBRA loop when disaster fell upon my family.

    The administrators of the CORBA coverage I had made an error and in spite of waiting for 45 min or longer on hold, many dozens of times, they ended up just not returning my calls or attending to my messages. Neither from me or my past employer. So I had no health insurance until I was of age to recieve retirement from 27 years in the coal mines, with health care insurance.

    Yes my working life was rewarded for years of hard work by having earned a retirement and health insurance.

    Does it rile me that people who never worked a day in their life or ever attempted to, think now, that they are *entitled* to have given to them freely, what others had to work for in order to earn?

    Yes it does!

    Not the care of thoes who need help, but the attitude that people are some how entitled to a free ride…

    There are many problems in our society… Becoming a socialist nation will not solve them.

    When our brain trust in Washington created the *stimulus* spending disaster, we seen the CEO of General Motors fired by our president….Is this the type of government our forfathers created or that we want to give to our children?

    Be careful America, we need only look at South America to see where we are headed, if we aren’t careful.

    Thank you Stacy, for your comments and defense of our nation.

    Steve

  78. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, here in America, we have a federal government, we have a state government and for many we also have municipal governments.

    All created in order to have order, to, as you stated, create infrastructure, and provide protection.

    Even in true Amish communities, who hold no allegiance to any nation, there are rules for their society.

    If we are to truly be a self governing people, then we the people elect thoes we feel best represents us, in every level of government.

    If they don’t then we elect another.

    Sin causes good people to do bad things. It is when we begin to distort the laws of God and Christian principals, that what was clear, suddenly becomes cloudy. Even to the point where we can’t see right from wrong.

    Personaly, my view of the world is that it is getting more and more evil, and farther and farther away from God.

    When Jesus returns, He will set up a *Kingdom* on earth. People will not elect anyone, Christ will appoint people to positions of authority.

    This was the concept of the rule in the Promised land…But rebellion from the people caused the rejection of God and the consequences were disaster.

    We have discussed many times as to whether we should elect people who are professing Christians or that reflect our Christian beliefs.

    Whether or not we want a *Theocracy*

    America, was founded by people who were Christian’s wanting to create a *More Perfect Union* based on the life principals of Bible based laws and directives.

    This makes us very unique in all of the world, We have been the *ENVY* not the “laughing stock of the rest of the world”, because Christ has been our leading light.

    This president we now have in office, considers America no longer to be a Christian nation…His words not mine.

    What direction did Saul take Israel towards? What direction is this president taking our country? Is Christ his guiding light?

    Also want to say that when it served Paul’s purpose, he claimed Roman citizenship…

    Steve

  79. Lively says:

    I do wonder, at times, what Paul would say if he wrote a letter to us – to the “American Church.” I believe he would take to task many congregations on a variety of issues. Perhaps one of them would be that we don’t let our lights shine bright enough when it comes to “government.” We’ve been slowly cutting God out of our government for decades. It’s my belief that when our forefathers wanted a separation of church and state they meant for us to avoid the pitfalls of England/Europe being ruled by a corrupt church – I don’t for a minute think they meant to take God out of the governing equation. But, that is what we have allowed.

    Yes, Christians need to become more involved with these things and we need to not be afraid to admit what we are and Who we stand for.

  80. poohpity says:

    Mart,

    Please explain to me your statements because I am not understanding what you mean!!! I am confused!!!!

  81. Lively says:

    Well, I was going to write my congressman about healthcare – seems that his view is my view. So long as he sticks to it, my voice is being represented.

  82. phpatato says:

    I said earlier that I was going to mind my own business but this morning, after clicking out, I felt it necessary to log back in to say something.

    Bob in England, please read this knowing it is given in love….

    Your boasting “free hospital yeterday by free ambulance and has undergone some free tests” comment to Stacy was so uncool and unCHRISTIAN. Our American brothers and sister in Christ have a huge heart-wrenching dilemma on their plates. They are unsure and many are hurting financially. Don’t be guilty of being smug; that is something satan is wanting you to do. Resist this. As outsiders, we can’t do anything to help the situation except to pray.

    To my dear friends, God sees and knows this problem. Leave it at His feet then pray and TRUST….HIS WILL BE DONE.

  83. poohpity says:

    Mart, are you saying that we as Christians are to obey the government because God put it there like Paul says in Romans 13. Are you also saying that we have elevated the government to the place of God in our lives, rather than looking at sin being the problem we are blaming it on the government. Rather than doing the things the Church is to take care of, we depend on the government to do it. Also as it says in 2 Timothy that we are tied up in worldly affairs and aren’t doing the work that God has set before us. Are we elevating ourselves above the government and the government above God. Like God is down the list pretty far. Are we depending as in Judges on our own authority as to what is right and wrong as the final authority or on what God says.

    Obviously we have strayed pretty darn far haven’t we? It would be nice to put all of our thoughts, desires and plans into the Hand of God because we have not done a very good job of running things neither in our own lives or in our countries of origin.

    So are you saying that God is in charge we aren’t and the more time we put into trying to be the government the less time we have to be soldiers for Christ?

  84. Lively says:

    php – thank you for defending me :-)I know Bob meant no harm to me.

    Bob – I am actually going to use your comment “against” you lol You call it free – it’s not. It’s “prepaid” by your taxes. I couldn’t get hard numbers on your tax rates – but it appears that the UK pays between 20-40% for income tax? It also seems that anyone making over 150,000 pounds will owe 50%. Does that sound right? What is the rate for your sales tax? Property tax?

    Plus you have NIC (National Insurance Contributions) at rates of 11%?

    I’m not seeing how you can claim that your healthcare is free…

    There’s nothing free in this world, it all comes at a price – including being a Christian. I’m a firm believer in cost benefit analysis.

    Now I’m heading to the pharmacy to pay for expensive meds that keeps my eldest from having asthma attacks – she kinda likes to breathe. I thank God I can afford to buy them. I thank God there are (finally) programs out there for people who can’t – even though I know it raises the price for me.

  85. poohpity says:

    Proverbs 11:19; With their words, the godless destroy their friends, but knowledge will rescue the righteous.

  86. phpatato says:

    Stacy the comment was unnecessary and did nothing to enhance the conversation and even though you didn’t feel it’s stab, others may have.

    Bob…I am as guilty as you for saying things not nice…for we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And if you were only joking with Stacy and I have misread your tone, please forgive me.

  87. Mart De Haan says:

    poohpity, Yes, am wondering about a lot of what you have said. Civic/community service and responsibility is honorable– but I suspect there is something wrong when, on one hand, we say that in America “we the people” are the government… as if that gives us the right to give Washington less respect than an inspired Paul gave Caesar.

  88. poohpity says:

    I know that many times I look at all the negative and complain when in fact I need to be thankful and pray for those in authority. I find it all comes down to as I look at a twenty dollar bill and just started crying because it says right across the back “In God We Trust” but do I really do that when it comes to the bottom line. If that is indeed who I trust in then I would respect those who God has put in authority over us.

  89. Bill B says:

    Mart,
    This is my first time responding after having read your articles for over two years.
    I wish that people could just think of what their “GOD” asks of them in almost ALL religions: “To love Him..and to love your neighbor”.
    The greed in this country is spreading so rapidly and it seems that either no one is noticing it or itt’s because most of us are involved in it.
    I was taught that what (material0 belongs to us on this earth..belongs to God. He wants us to use it to His liking and in this way show our love for Him and for our neighbor!
    All Americans (including the Congress and Senate) ask yourself:”If my brother were hungry, would I not feed him?
    Your brother is hungry!!! So, what are we waiting for?

  90. poohpity says:

    Mart, if you consider what the government was like in Paul’s day it was horrible to Christians, to citizens and showed favoritism to the rich yet he told us to respect those in authority to be the one’s who would guide them to Christ because of our behavior.

  91. poohpity says:

    Wasn’t it Jesus who said, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s”. I believe Paul told us to not be concerned with the government but the work the Lord has given us to do.

  92. poohpity says:

    I am feeling very convicted at this point. Forgive me Father for putting my trust in the government and not being respect of those You have put in authority over me. Forgive me for trusting everything but you for provision and help me to show your life through mine. In the name of Jesus I pray, Amen.

  93. poohpity says:

    I meant respectful not respect.

  94. poohpity says:

    It is even interesting that Paul even worked for that government and was a Pharisees before his conversion and knew what they were like, wow.

  95. Lively says:

    Bill B – I think one of the issue is, if your *brother* is hungry. Does that extend to those who are not brothers and sisters in Christ?

    I’m rushed today, or I’d look up the reference (I’m horrible with the references) Doesn’t the Bible teach that we are to respect those in authority over us as it is God whom granted them that authority?

    I respect our government – I know I’m blessed to live in a country that allows me to disagree with the government without fear.

    You know what, no one has said this yet… GOD BLESS AMERICA! Healthcare issues or not – I’m proud to be an American and consider myself truly blessed that I was born here.

  96. Regina says:

    Hello Brothers/Sisters in Christ,

    The health care issue seems more complicated than I could have ever imagined. Situations and circumstances have been discussed in this blog that I’ve never had to deal with (I praise God for good health & good insurance). However, I’m concerned about people who are having to deal with serious (and not so serious) issues with the health care system in America. I’ve been pondering some of the thoughts and concerns that I’ve read in this blog in my mind.

    I think we would all agree that the government is necessary in order to enforce laws, provide protection, keep order, and to make sure that there are checks and balances. Otherwise, total anarchy would be the result. It’s obvious that we don’t all see eye-to-eye. If as Christians, we don’t all agree on how the health care situation should be handled, there’s most certainly going to be disagreement and dissension among people who are not born-again.

    Some of our leaders in government are born-again and some aren’t. Therefore, they’re not going to handle situations in the same way, and, in some cases, they’re not going to agree for very different reasons. As we’ve discovered from the posts in this blog, the health care situation is extremely complicated. I think it’s a very serious matter that’s going to require fervent prayer from all of us because we definitely need the LORD’s help with this issue.

    Our governmental leaders are voted into office for a certain amount of time, and if we can’t come to agreement on anything while the current leaders are in office that leaves more work on the table for the future leaders. We really need our LORD’s intervention with the health care issue because if there are more people currently in office who are not born-again compared to those who are, there will be certain issues that they will never reach agreement on without His help.

    Dear brothers & sisters, join me in prayer on behalf of the health care issue and on behalf of our beloved country, America! :-)

    America! America!
    God shed his grace on thee
    And crown thy good with brotherhood
    From sea to shining sea!

    Regina

  97. Regina says:

    I second that, Lively (no offense towards Bill B)! You took the words right out of my mouth! :-)

    Regina

  98. Regina says:

    Lively,

    In response to your question to Bill B, I believe that the Lord wants us to consider any and everyone to be our neighbor. Whether the person is born-again or not is irrelevant if he or she has a need that we can meet.

    If you saw an injured man laying in the street would you ask him if he was born-again before you helped him? I know you would help him first. That would enable him to see the love of Jesus through you, and give you an opportunity to share Jesus with him. It would also give Jesus an opportunity to draw him into this wondrous grace that we now walk in! :-)

    Regina

  99. jbird says:

    Mart,

    I find the idea of equal health coverage for everyone puzzling from a christian standpoint. It seems that time and again throughout biblical history, God has handed each person his/her own personal struggles. Look at the difference in Job and Mary. Job had all he could dream of and it was taken from him in an instant. Mary was deemed perfect enough to carry and deliver our savior, yet she had to give up her son so that man may be saved from sinful ways. Each person was forced to rely on God through times of difficulty.

    I wonder then, is the struggle of healthcare within a family meant to grow their hearts closer to Christ? He provides us all with our own challenges that cause us to draw nearer to him. If we all were provided with the same health coverage, would God choose to develop different hardships to bring us closer to him?

  100. marma says:

    Sometimes it is hard to identify with others with health care issues and so we fall back on well-developed opinions.

    I had a friend once who had a severe chronic illness that had caused organ damage. She was young (in her twenties) and was trying to figure out what to do with her life. I explored this with her in a couple of conversations we had together. I was young, too, and had a lot of options open to me. After talking to her, I realized I was unable to relate to the limitations she faced that prevented her from doing almost every occupation. She died in her early thirties.

    All my usual advice didn’t work with her because I had no concept of what it was to be in her shoes. Looking back on it with what I know now from God’s Word and from being a Christian for twenty plus years I realize the best thing I could do was be her friend, pray, and look to God for what I should be in her life, not always try to have the answers.

    We don’t always (mostly don’t) know how to help people outside the obvious; however, we shouldn’t question helping with the obvious. There’s plenty of examples in Scripture about doing that and we shouldn’t be over thinking it.

    One thing I like about the Samaritan story is that he did everything that was in his power to do, and did more than just the basics. That spoke volumes. Even if he never had a chance to verbally give God the glory, God got it anyway by the Samaritan’s actions of love.

  101. SFDBWV says:

    Ok, I have got to tell a story about, private vs government run healthcare.

    An old friend of mine now deceased was a WWII veteran, and quite a character. He had to stand on tiptoe to make 5 feet and though small in size, he made up for it in attitude…

    He and another fellow from my community flew into France on D-Day in gliders. He ended up serving 40 years in the Army and retired to live out the remainder of his days here in his home town.

    Even though he had the priviledge of going to VA hospitals, he would not. He paid out of his own retirement medical premiums for he and his wife. Because according to him he got better health care in the private sector, than in the VA system.

    He told me more than once that in the VA hospital they cut off legs every Tuesday.

    I just listened and smiled, never really believing that, that was realy a true statement.

    He has been gone for several years, but his memory will be alive in me for as long as I will live.

    A couple years ago I was talking with a nurse, who worked for 20 plus years in the VA system. When I (Jokingly) recounted the story “Charlie” had told me about cutting off legs every Tuesday….She just smiled and said he was pretty much right.

    I have never used the VA priviledges I earned as serving in the Marine Corps. However I know plenty who do, They all can tell horror stories about their experiances, but there is no law suits against the VA for incompetence….

    Why don’t we have a national debate about how to move forward and allow for all citizen to be fully informed on what is being offered, before we find out after it becomes law?

    I have been watching CSPAN 1&2 and the debate that goes on there is very interesting and enlightening. If not upsetting.

    Steve

  102. Lively says:

    Regina – I keep forgetting that you all don’t *know* me…

    In some way’s I’ve played “Devil’s advocate” on the posts I’ve made. I’m for healthcare for all and I take my stand as a Christian. In other topics I’ve said that it’s my stand that it is not enough just to love fellow Christians – I strive to love all, no matter what religion they are. In my way of thinking, we are all His children, even those that deny Him.

    My question to Bill was more to highlight the differences in Christian thinking. I know many Christians that do not support universal healthcare, saying the majority of people who can’t afford care are either illegal aliens and/or people who choose not to work. I’m not fond of the idea of further supporting people who can work but won’t, but I’d prefer to cover those people instead of putting hard working honest people, Christian or not, in trouble.

    As I said before, had my hubby been able to get the meds he needed for high blood pressure caused by a genetic disease of his kidneys (and yes, he was working at the time) he wouldn’t be within a month or two of needing dialysis and/or a new kidney. I fully support anything that will stop that from happening to another family.

    That said, I won’t set aside the very values that make me an advocate making healthcare affordable to all by saying the legislation that is up for vote now is the right choice. It’s rushed, it’s a bandaid and doesn’t address core problems with the system. My opinion – and this is also from the standpoint of being a child of God – let’s take our time and do it right the first time.

    Jbird – in my case, I don’t think my family’s trials are to bring me (or any other of my family) closer to God – and I can think of several other families that are like mine. I’ve no clue why we’re facing what we’re facing – but I know I trust that it is for His Work.

  103. marma says:

    SFDBWV: Our neighbors have VA and they are very happy with it. I think it depends on the level you qualify for (where have we heard that before?).

  104. SFDBWV says:

    After reading over my last comment I did not want anyone to think that Charlie Cosner and Bob Guthrie were the only veterans we sent to the second world war.

    Bayard (my home town) at the outset of WWII had a poulatioon of just over 2000. we sent 207 men and women to the second world war. Some who never returned.

    We hold the distinction of having, as an incorporated municipality, sent more people to the second world war by percentage of poulation, that any other municipality in the whole of the United States.

    We are very proud of that and have a monument to all of our veterans erected in our town park, with each and every name of every veteran from the War with Mexico to the current gulf wars inscribed in stone.

    Steve

  105. poohpity says:

    Oh my gosh, lol. What was the topic anyway?

  106. Lively says:

    I tell you what Poo – this just proves how dynamic the issue. It truly goes beyond personal stories, this issue cuts to the quick for many.

    I have to say, this is the most civil conversation on a prickly topic I’ve ever seen, I’m tickled I’m a part of it :-)

  107. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Stacy,
    I am well aware how much we are taxed and that our health care is not free, but you all fail to understand, no matter which way I say it, that health care should be free at the point of service and that no one and I mean NO ONE should have to worry about the cost before they go to a doctor for help.
    My friend is already registered as disabled and has paid taxes all his life as most of us do.
    He has not worked for over 8 years now and needs crutches to move around the house.
    He became bed ridden on Saturday night and called his doctor on Monday who made a house call. The doctor then sent him by ambulance to Truro where he has been tested and is to have an MRI scan tomorrow and should be released home after that. I was not being smug when I said the treatment was free because it is free and would be the same if you paid no tax all your life.
    Yes the 11% tax on top of 30-40% income tax is called “National insurance” Your employer also pays a contribrution to the goverment as well.
    Now I am currently out of work and have been now for six months, although I work 3 hours a day, less than 16 hours a week, I am still entitled to get my rent and local government tax paid by the state. and that will reduce as I get more seasonal hours during the summer. “Free” health care for all and social welfare comes at a high cost to everyone but the benifits literaly out way the cost to an individual who is in need.
    Some people live on state benifits all their lives, some by no fault of their own and some are just lazy, but everyone is entitled to health care, we consider it a basic human right.
    I am sorry I was in a rush earlier today and did not make myself clear.
    Also we have 17.5% vat which is a transaction tax, so every time you buy or sell an item 17.5% is added to the cost. The rate is even higher in some other EU counries.
    High taxation was the cause of the Boston Tea Party and the subsequent eight year war between us.
    Europe and the USA are polls apart on this as you have a low tax high consumer society and we have high taxed socialy engineered societies.
    Our railways are government funded although privately managed and the TGV’s here and in France run at nearly 200 miles/hour, I believe your president also wants to introduce high speed trains in the US.
    Some basic infrastructures like healthcare and trains cannot be left to “free market enterprise” but have to be run centrally by governement.
    I believe that was what Mart was hinting at earlier.
    You have an elected Ceasar, so let him get on with what governments do best, that is govern!

    Brief Tax Breakdown:
    20-30% income tax (can be higher)
    £80-£200/month local tax
    17.5% vat (transaction tax)
    11% national insuranse.
    Petrol(Gas)Duty about 80%/litre so one litre is £1.14
    Also corperation tax on company profits etc.

    Free no, prefered to your system, Yes

    Bob

  108. poohpity says:

    I know Stacy. I was referring to one of the original questions, ““Where is the wisdom and heart of Christ showing up in this current debate?” I believe all know the need for Health care and many others needs of Human beings in every Country. I just thought it amusing not even amusing but sad that people have offered more complaints about our country, the president and many more issues than that have offered of what Christ might do in this case. Or what do we do as Christians to cross party lines or country lines to help to resolve these problems or is it even our job or is it our job to point fingers and cause turmoil.

    Read Romans 13 or 1 Timothy 2:1-3 or 2 Timothy 2:3,4 or any other that helps us to see what our part is. I for one have not seen a discussion by most not all of how we are to react to these things. If someone wants to be upset with me so be it I just would like to know what we are to do to model Christ in this world today with the issues that are before us.

  109. Lively says:

    I’m sorry about your friend.

    There are some definate good points to the system over there – but it just isn’t the American way. I probably shouldn’t speak for everyone – but the truth is most Americans I know would never willing allow our way of life become so socialized. (A bit of humor) Texas would declare itself it’s own nation and Virginia would follow quickly behind! Shoot, we might even force West Virginia to join with us… lol (yes, teasing you Steve)

    Very few “normal” people want what could be forced down our throats. We’ve make our position known, our voices have been heard and I think many of us feel ignored.

    What might be misunderstood overseas is, we (the people) asked our governement to fix a system that is broken, but the worst issues are not being addressed. Like Wall Street, Insurance companies have been allowed to run riot at the cost of “people”. People do get care, even if they can’t pay for it, they aren’t normally sent home to die. (I qualify this because it does still happen) Programs are now in place to help people afford the meds they need. Many groups now help pay for costs when a family can’t afford it. These things didn’t really exist 10 years ago.

    But, in the end – it’s about making sure that it’s done right for the US – what works for Europe isn’t going to transfer easily over here. I’m in a unique position to see it.

    p.s. I’ve a cousin who “milks the system” over there – it truly makes me sad to know I’m related to her *frown* drives my other cousins batty as they work hard.

  110. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Pat,
    Thank you for your comments and appology, accepted.
    Stacy, Pooh(Deb), Steve and myself all have radical opinions and all have seen lifes bad times as well as God’s goodness and love.
    From over here the reasoning and arguing about all this looks very strange as after world warII we had no real choice but to Make Health Care available to everyone because no one could afford to pay.
    Mothers could not afford to get medical advice when pregnant and at birth, and there were lot’s of “shell shocked” and disabled young men about etc.
    And most European countries took a radical and democratic shift toward socialism and central control.

    I agree with Steve in the fact your country has taken a different course but the econnomic climate is having it’s toll even on your “free market” confidence.

    I never did get to see my friend in hospital today as my motor bike broke down on the way. It made me laugh when I saw you blog tonight as I could see how arrogant my comment looked after you said and that God also was having a laugh. God also provided a nice young chap in a van who stopped and took me and my bike to the garrage I had already booked for it’s service on Friday. I don’t need it for two weeks and can’t afford to pay ’till then, so even in what looked like a bad day God’s hand was in it and now I have time to save some money.
    Bob

  111. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Stacy,
    We consider ourselves the most regulated country in the world and get fed up with the “Nanny State”, as we call it, telling us what we can and can’t do, so I can imagine how you all feel about it over there.
    I have lived and worked in the USA and although dismayed by the western “gun toting” culture in some states, I do like New York and Northern California and Seatle and the desert regions.
    People great fun in LA.
    As we come from the same root culture we have far more to agree about than to fight over, and we have Jesus to boot.
    Bob xxx

  112. dependent says:

    Bob sez:
    “You have an elected Ceasar, so let him get on with what governments do best, that is govern!”

    “Dear Mr. Bob,
    The government’s Department of Fairness and Mercy have noted that you have reserved the exclusive use of your motorbike for seven days a week. As you are aware, it has been deemed that every citizen in Cornwall has a right to motorized transportation. You are hereby ordered to give up possession of the vehicle every second month.”

    “Dear Government DOFM Official,
    I am bound by the scripture governing by deeply held Christian beliefs. Accordingly, it would be a sin for me to resist your orders, as you have been placed in your office by God himself. Further, in accordance with the precepts in Matthew 5:40-41, I hereby give up my right to use my motorbike for two out of the three months instead of every other month. Just going the ‘extra mile’…”

    “Dear Mr. DeHaan,
    Recent census documents reveal two unused bedrooms in your home. Since everyone has a right to a roof over their head, consider this your notice of immediate occupance by the family we deem most needful…

  113. poohpity says:

    If the things I say seem radical gee, I have really given the wrong opinion of me. I am not radical by any means I love the Lord and try to live my life that way while pointing others to read His Word not on anything I say.

    So far on this topic I have been put down for being an American, overweight, smoking, disabled depending on the government for health care, housing and many other issues even trying to get folks to look at what Mart is really bringing up for discussion so as far as friendly goes I am just not feeling it. I am also accused of being a radical. Thank God I depend on Him for my worth. When we talk about how people abuse the system how about how we abuse each other.:-(

  114. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    dependent,

    You made I laugh, as we say here.

    Only you are correct, during one fuel shortage, only odd number plates were allowed to drive on certain days of the week and even on others so everyone had to car share.

    And during times of emergency the goverment has taken over whole towns and villages.
    I am quiet aware how close we are in the UK to being a police state, with 28 days held without trial laws (they wanted 3 months) and more cameras per head of population than anywhere elso on the planet. All in the name of protecting the public, but from what?

    Now where did I put that coin with old Queen lizes head on it!

    Bob

  115. poohpity says:

    dependent just presented my case in point.

  116. rjfd says:

    The founders of our Constitution never intended that the government have control over our health care. Some congress people declare that health care is a right. It is not. Bigger government means more control and power and that is their objective; not our health.

  117. bubbles says:

    At one point in life, my deductable was an entire month’s salary, so I went to the doctor perhaps only 5 times in 16 years.

    This topic is very scary. :(

    As much as I love and am thankful for it, America is in a mess. Maybe we have dug ourselves in a hole that there is no way out. :(

    Why did our government allow astronomical unnecessary medical lawsuits to occur over and over again? Why do doctors think they need to charge $200 or more for an office visit that might last 5 minutes if you are lucky? Malpractice insurance for the lawsuits. Why can medical companies charge hundreds of dollars for medicine? Look at the homes doctors live in. Look at the vehicles they drive. Look at their lifestyles. Yes, they have made huge sacrifices to care for others. Yes, they have given years of their lives in the study of medicine. But, is it fair to take and take and take from others? Are their fees for services and medicines justified? Must they/hospitals/nursing homes charge so much? If they all did not charge so much, wouldn’t this stop most of the problems?

    Looks like sin and greed are the root of this isssue. This is probably a naive and waaaay too simplistic outlook on this.

  118. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Deb,

    Jesus was radical, He knew every piece of scripture inside out. because He wrote it.
    He claimed radical things about Himself because they were true.
    He turned the establishment, that was more based on the law of God than ours is, upside down.

    If you study the broader meaning of the word radical you will see it means from the root and is to do with passion and upholding that which you believe to the end, even when it goes against established thinking and practice.

    Bob

  119. dependent says:

    I think it is wise to distinguish the difference between our individual responsibilities before God and those of a nation. In either case, I believe God’s standard is strict enough to silence any of our personal or national finger pointing:

    Jas 4:16-17 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows what is good to do and does not do it is guilty of sin.
    ——————–

    I think we err when we fail to recognize the destructive role covetousness has in the individual, corporate or government spheres. All too often we justify our political positions by pitting poor against rich. Many times accusations of ‘greed’ are a thin veil exposing the sin of covetousness. It is as sinful for the “poor” to covet as it is for the “rich” to covet. [“poor” and “rich” in the U.S. context is “rich” and “richer” in the global context–yet, neighbor covets the riches of neighbor and nation covets the riches of other nations, no matter their position on the ‘wealth’ continuum]

    Human government in this age is ordained of God, but is also the playground of institutionalized covetousness and pride. Nothing’s changed since the days when Paul exhorted Christian slaves to submit to masters right alongside wealthy believers admonished to submit to leadership.

    Finally, I think a common theme found in the Apostle’s writings is this:
    “Rich and poor should be generous to those in need and all should be content whether in times of relative need or in times of plenty.”

    If the government ‘forces’ compassion or wealth redistribution at the end of the sword, perhaps it is God’s means, however inefficient or corrupt, to remind us of our obligation to show the mercy that we have been shown.

    Even then, government-compelled programs will never be a substitute for our own individual privilege and responsibility to care for the ‘widows and orphans.’ For, even the nations with the most ‘socialized’ approach to governing have no shortage of people needing the compassion that only Christ’s Body can extend.

  120. dependent says:

    Taken to one extreme, the “render unto Ceasar/honor the authorities” principle could be used to undermine the whole concept of representative government as far as Christians are involved.

    That is…to oppose any government decision or policy (that is not in direct conflict with what God has commanded) is to oppose God’s authority?

    That stance leaves a whoooooole lot of quite amoral, but nontheless important, civil issues outside the influence of Christians from one end of the philosophical spectrum to the other!

  121. Mart De Haan says:

    Was going to change subject this a.m. but I think airing the different sides of this issue, as you all are doing, is so important… especially when we keep reflecting on what it means to “love one another– as Christ loved us…

    This one (like most tough issues) requires wisdom… as well as love…

  122. pegramsdell says:

    Maybe we should all go fishing. Might be a fish with a gold coin in it to pay those taxes. lol….

  123. SFDBWV says:

    Kathy (Bubbles), I do not think that you are naive at all. The problem is greed and money as well as social ills and personal choices.

    No one on either side of this issue wants to withold care for any individual who needs medical help.

    There is laced throughout the debate failures of society and failures of attempts at trying to have the government fix them.

    When our Judicial branch of our government begins to legislate from the bench, it creates discention within the balances we want in our governing process.

    With all respect to England and other European nations, Americans came here to get away from the governments and economies of Europe. To a place where hard work and a dream could become realized. It is called *Freedom* freedom from any government that attaches itself to every aspect of ones life. Or forces it’s will upon it’s citizens.

    The more government interferes with the business of business the less likely that business can succeed.

    The free enterprize system has worked because it enables people to work for themselves.

    Have insurance companies become too arrogant? Yes, in my opinion. They wield too much power over what medical procedures or care a person may get.

    Have medical costs gotten too high? Yes, in my opinion. But have you, as mentioned above by another, noticed that if you pay cash for a doctors visit it is less than if it is billed to an insurer.

    Are the costs of medicines gotten too high? Again yes in my opinion the have…

    But…I bought my house in 1974 for $14,000, and could buy a new car then for about $5,000.

    Gasoline was .35 cents a gallon, and yes a beer cost .25 cents.

    How do we stop high prices? Buy regulating them? By having the government tell us how much a car can cost or how much land should sell for?

    In a free market system, the price is most often set by supply and demand. In a goverment controled system, the price is set by ???

    Along with controling the price is controling the wages of thoes effected.

    Be careful, we are teetering upon a very dangerous slope.

    Steve

  124. SFDBWV says:

    My appologies to you Bob, The Boston Tea Party was not only about taxes, it was about taxation without representation.

    Our second war with England was concerning the English Navy’s habit of kidnapping American sailors from peaceful merchant ships and forcing them to be sailors in the English Navy.

    Just don’t want you to be misinformed.

    Steve

  125. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Yes Steve,
    I agree there is too much government intervention here, but things like the NHS and the trains are run with internal free markets and I can choose which doctors practice I prefer and a doctor can choose the best and cheapest hospital for his purpose and patient and type of treatment as he pays for some types of treatment from his own NHS budget. Obviously accidents and emergencies are run from central budgets.
    The same applies to schools as people, within certain areas can choose schools acording to their performance stats and schools are allocated money etc. on numbers of pupils and quality.
    The system can produce what we call a “post code lottery” so that in one street you may get a free cancer drug, but in anougher street it comes under a different authourity and so is not available. Big discussions go on here about pan national standard. We have different systems in Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland as well as England so it always needs reviewing.
    I agree, in a perfect world with no greed, and if everything was handled fairly, free market forces would work just grand, but that is not the case either here or in your country.
    I was listening to the debate on American News at 2am this morning and I realy do feel for you all as there seems to be no ground between the people, mainly democrats, who want a national health system similar to ours and the free marketeers, mainly Republican who seem to want to keep the status quo.
    At least with our system, apart from administration, all the money goes to the hospital budget etc. But your system at the moment seems to be supporting “city fat cats” in the large corperations.
    I really hope you get a system that works, but I warn you it has taken us 60 years to get where we are with it and it still fails and needs tweaking all the time, so don’t expect the first draft/law to be perfect, it will need revising until it becomes what is good for all.
    Bob

  126. SFDBWV says:

    Also for the courious among you that may have wondred why I mentioned, the Judicial branch interfering with legislative matters, while addressing the topic in my comments above.

    When the very famous Madaline O’Hare case came before our court system, 98% of Americans wanted prayer to be included in our school system.

    However 2% of Americans forced their ungodly will upon the remainder of us….

    What we are hearing now is that 15% of Americans are actualy without medical coverage. That means 75% of all Americans are…

    It is to be remembered that there are already government run systems to take care of the most destitute of thoes in our society. Why don’t they simply change the regulations to include those 15%, until their situation may improve?

    No, what the progressive reformers in our government want to do is change the complection of our constitution toward a government run life.

    They will hide it behind the seemingly nobel cause of healthcare. But it is *CONTROL* that these socialists want to impose on the majority of thoes opposed to it.

    Do not be decieved by the lie.

    Steve

  127. Lively says:

    I’m glad, Mart.

    Bob – you said it much better than I tried to last night. Pooh – when I grow up, I want to be a radical like you!

    dependent, you made me laugh last night – that was a great example.

    But what you wrote early this morning, anything in scripture can be taken to the point of danger and made to look right. It’s one reason that cults work. I strongly believe that we have a duty to not only voice our opinion when it comes to moral and ethical issues that face our government, but to act on them if need be. If we sit silently and allow our government to pass a law that goes against something that is God’s, we’re in big trouble.
    What would Jesus do? What would God have us do? At what point do we set aside the light inside us and enter the “debate” in a secular role? NEVER! Every thought, every word we utter should have Him behind it. I know that’s hard to do in today’s world, but I’m sure it wasn’t easy back in the days of Paul, either.

    We’ve bought into the fairly new definition of separation of Church and State – we’ve allowed it to expand to separation of God and Country.

    Steve – People also made a lot less money back in 1974 – and you could actually buy *real* food at reasonable prices back then, too! Nowadays, it costs a small fortune to eat healthy. I agree with you that mandating insurance is the wrong choice. But, I do think that the gov’t needs to step in regarding certain practices of the insurance companies. Trust me when I say, that’s an odd position for me. But, there are some industries that don’t allow for a true free market system and this is one of them. Generally speaking, if you’re having a heart attack you don’t have any real choices – you are at the mercy of the services around you. You can’t dicker about prices or shop around.
    And, that comment about it generally being cheaper if you pay cash – not always true. Three examples over a 5 year period… congestive heart failure approx. 2004 2 days in hospital – no insurance hospital in Loudoun County, VA cost approx $10,000. Congestive heart failure approx. 2006 less than 1 day in hospital – no insurance Richmond, VA over $30,000. Same thing, same hospital in Loudoun County in 2007 – longer stay, with insurance and insurance was billed about $15,000 – paid about $7,000 and our copay was around $1,400.

    It only works if you can pay the full amount upfront.
    Both hospitals treat the uninsured, neither will turn anyone away. One reason Richmond was so much higher, there is a higher population of uninsured in the area, the median income in the area is probably half that of the Loudoun Hospital, though they are a teaching hospital so in theory they should have more funds available. Also, the surrounding population is more “unhealthy” in Richmond.

    One question for those reading this that are for the current legislation…. if it does include and allow abortions – will you still support it?

  128. SFDBWV says:

    The American Civil War was started by two different ideals of government….Not slavery.

    Yet after the confederacy formed their own new style of unified government, and attacked Ft Sumpter, war began. Slavery became an issue and noble cause, that Lincoln introduced. The purpose being to unify the north, because the war was very unpopular. But the idea of freeing the slaves became an unarguable reason to put down the rebellion.

    Healthcare for all, I am and have been for it. However I am opposed to being rushed into accepting something no one truly knows or understands, because it has become a political arguement instead of an informed decision the American people can decide for themselves.

    I too listened to 2 hours of debate last evening on C-SPAN, coming away more confused than informed.

    I have often said that science and history are two of my intellectual passions. Science continues to prove the hand of God and history continues to prove man’s inability to govern himself.

    I join with all that pray for God to be in the midst of this issue and wield His higher authority in helping us to make the decissions that are in accordence with His will.

    I also look forward with eager yearning to that day when Christ will return and govern with perfect clarity.

    Steve

  129. SFDBWV says:

    jorge, the 15% figure is the figure that I kept hearing and seeing on the floor of Congress being discussed by our representitives.

    Steve

  130. SFDBWV says:

    I think also that the inflated higher figures may include the millions of illegal aliens living within our borders

    Steve

  131. SFDBWV says:

    jorge, I am sorry you can’t grasp the relevnace between the 2% issue I mentioned.

    The idea that a minority of people can have it’s way over the majority, is the relevance.

    I will agree that numbers presented by both sides of the isle will not agree. So who is telling the truth and who is not?

    I do not actually know, do you?

    Steve

  132. Lively says:

    To futher the confusion – the way the information is collected is odd. It includes non americans (about 79% are american) and people who are eligable for current insurance programs offered by the gov’t and haven’t applied, and people who choose not to get insurance – though they can afford it and are offered it.

    Here’s some of the data I found:

    People uninsured for an entire year between 21-31 million in 2003

    14 million of the uninsured in 2003 would have qualified for Medicaid and SCHIP

    17.6 million of the uninsured made $50,000 a year and 9.1 million made over $75,000 in 2007

    18.3 million in were under 34 (2007)

    Current best guess is there are about 8.2 million without insurance. They are too poor to afford it but make too much money to qualify for gov’t assistance.

    Again – no one is (supposed to be) turned away from hospitals.

    Just some numbers to think about.

  133. SFDBWV says:

    Jorge, wanted also to further explain my judicial comments..

    The judicial branch of government answers to no one. They are not elected by the people and in the federal realm of government hold that position for life.

    The idea I attempted to show is that government, in this position can force their will upon the majority of people, however unpopular or however the majority of people want a different outcome.

    It is all about government interfering in our lives.

    That is the relevance.

    Steve

  134. SFDBWV says:

    Jeorge, I answered your challange by quoting the figures quoted on the floor of Congress.

    Where did you get your figures from?

    If you look at the figures Stacy just put up. in a nation of 300 million, what is the percentage 8.2 million represent?

    Steve

  135. Lively says:

    The numbers I got were derived from several sources and most originated from census info.

  136. xrgarza says:

    Wow! Great input just want to say that I have missed all of you.

    Many have heard me say that its been nearly 40 years that my father passed away. I did not realize that things had changed to such an extreme until now that my mother is exactly where my father was 40 years ago. The care that my mother is receiving doesn’t come close to what my father received.

    Now as far as a Christian’s responsibility,well don’t get me started, the church has in so many ways been influenced by the world it is difficult to see a difference in objectives.

    Today the church is concern more with making a profit than to teach the people how to save for emergencies.

    When Joseph became governor of Egypt, he knew that they were going to have seven good years and seven bad years. He commanded the entire nation to save twenty percent of everything they made during the seven good years so that they would have enough during the seven bad years.

    What the Lord has taught me about finances in the last two years I have never heard from behind the pulpit in the last 53 years. We hear messages like “if you are struggling financially, invest in my ministry and God will bless you”

    Yes there is a multitude of blessings in giving, however the Bible teaches that when the children of Israel were in bondage or wandering in the desert they were not required to bring their tithes or offerings. It was not until they took possession of the land that was left as an inheritance and after they had settled there.

    The Bible says that if you owe anybody anything, you are a slave to him, get out of bondage first, make that your goal.

    I hope I’m not simply ranting, but I simply want to say that yes the church does have a responsibility, and the priorities aren’t there now,can the church reel it self in at this point of the game and change course?

    It’s easy to see what wrong government or big business is doing, but the church needs to take responsibility and look at the plank in their eye before they can address the speck in government and business eye.

    Xavier

  137. Lively says:

    Jorge – I was just coming back to say, it doesn’t really matter what the actual number is in the long run – one person dying due to lack of healthcare is one too many. And, statistics are tweaked to justify almost any position.

    Then, I thought about it from a Christian perspective. There is only One Who controls who will live and die.

    But, who’s to say that one who dies due to lack of healthcare didn’t die to draw attention to something the Lord wants us to address?

    If you guys haven’t figured this out yet – my family is looking at going seriously in debt in the next few months. Kidney transplants aren’t cheap. We have insurance – medicaid will also cover some of the costs – but it’s going to cost us.

    Mandating that everyone has insurance won’t help the majority. Having insurance won’t help us much. Instead of getting a bill for $250,000 maybe it will be $50,000 – don’t know about you guys, but we don’t have that laying around. Bye-bye retirement fund. Oh, and if hubby dies – I’ll still owe it.

    I’m opposed to the legislation as it stands now because a) I’m opposed to a socialized America and more importantly b) they are putting a bandage on a cut finger while the arm is being sawed off with a dull knife.

  138. Lively says:

    Xavier – You need a new church home. Mine is not like what you described, at all. The congregation has a habit of donating money to needy members on the sly – no one knows where the money comes from. I’m blessed to be a part of such a wonderful church.

  139. poohpity says:

    Churches today have lots of classes on how to be good stewards of money but not how to read and study the bible. They have book studies. Go figure!!!! Bible illiteracy is at a critical low in America and some argue as to it’s accuracy.

  140. dependent says:

    This topic has helped me realize that I don’t really understand God’s intentions for how His people are to “manage risk”–individually and corporately.

    “Insurance” and “coverage” are modern terms for individual and collective risk management.

    Scripture calls all of us to be a good stewards of the measure of wealth God has provided us. It also calls all of us to be generous and merciful no matter how much accumulated wealth we enjoy. We are called to work for our bread and assist those in need from a heart of love.

    Accumulated wealth = resources for managing risk. Whether it is grain stored in a barn, a collective agreement amongst a group or a policy purchased from a company.

    Jesus and his disciples carried a money bag–had a treasurer. That implies some level of “risk management” — some level of holding today’s wealth for tomorrow’s needs (read insurance). Some level of withholding wealth from the needy they encountered.

    Of course the spiritual implication is how our faith in God, our trust in his provision, relates to our methods of managing future risks. To what degree do we trust our Provider in spite of (or because of) the resources at hand for managing the uncertainty of tomorrow?

    Is our individual and collective tolerance for risk a measure of our faith? Yikes!

  141. Lively says:

    Jorge – seriously – look for a new Church.

    If my husband dies from this, it will be because of lack of healthcare. Preventative meds could have held this off for years. By the time he had insurance to pay for the meds, the damage was done.

    We do have what is considered “great insurance”, now. The only wait I have is getting an appointment. BTW – it was 5 months before we could get one at the transplant center. We will get the transplant, not knowing what the final bill will be – and I called to find out how much it could cost, no one could tell me. We’ll deal with the financial aspect of it when the time comes – but we will not be turned away – I was assured of that.

    I fully intend to donate a kidney, even if I’m not a match for him. In doing so, I push him up on the list. It’s selfish of me, in a way. Shouldn’t I do that anyway? There’s a five year wait for a kidney if you don’t have a living donor. Think of it, if everyone was willing to donate a kidney we could “cure” everyone before they are forced to go on dialysis. The longer you’re on dialysis, the less likely you’ll survive the transplant. God willing, my husband will never go on dialysis. Is that fair? Many die waiting on an organ because they have no one willing to donate for them, or they live somewhere that doesn’t have this type of program. If you were to donate a kidney without having a recipient need, you save two people instead of one. I’m just saving one. Shall we mandate that people must donate organs? I don’t think so.

    I really didn’t intend to share this info – but I felt like it was important explain as this issue hits very close to home. It’s not a nebulous “what if” for us. Make no mistake I’m for reform, but the reform needs to address the right issues. You brought up a valid issue that is NOT addressed in the legislation as far as I know. Medical bills should not be allowed to ruin your credit, take your home or force you into bankruptcy.

  142. Lively says:

    It’s long, it’s complex – I’m going to attempt to read all 1018 pages of the proposed legislation.

    My next post could well be from the psyche ward – I’ve got to be insane to even attempt it. :-)

  143. poohpity says:

    Lively, God’s speed in your endeavor and we will be here to pick up the pieces when you have lapsed into a mental breakdown. lol.

  144. xrgarza says:

    We were asked if we wanted or if my mother wanted her life extended, we were all in agreement absolutely not, so she was placed in home hospice care. I suppose this is the least expensive of procedures.

    Years ago I was watching a made for tv movie, where the patient was on a life support system but was in so much agony I’m not sure if the family was not allowing pain medication, but the patient begged the doctor to remove the machine. Eventually the dr did so, the rest of the movie was the trial where the family had taken the dr to court for removing the machine.

    At the end of the movie the court found favor on behalf of the dr. I cheered so loud I jumped up off the floor with excitement.

    Then as I was going to bed I struggled with the thought what is the difference between what this dr did vs what dr Kevorkian was doing.

    That night I had a dream in my dream I asked God that very question, His reply was “those hypocrites! How can they say “how can you take God into your own hands & remove the life support system” when those same people took God into their own hands and placed her on the life support system.

    So is it our own selfish desires that are getting us into this expensive mess?

    Xavier

  145. SFDBWV says:

    Sorry Mart, your opening statement at the top of the topic seemed to disintegrate…

    I tried to watch C-SPAN when I could today….To say that this is a hot button issue is an understatement.

    Stacy, What happened to the *catastrophic* medical legislation enacted some years ago to help people with situations like yours? I know it passed, but I don’t know how it works or how to connect to it. Maybe yopur Congresman can help.

    Deb, it was your congresman who quoted the 15% uninsured number I caught the dickens for repeating…After listening to the numbers that got thrown around on C-SPAN today I am nausious from being dizzy.

    Steve

  146. Lively says:

    I’m on page 26 and shaking my head, already. I was praying it was better than I thought it would be.

    Xavier – partly it is exactly that. You should read up on needless medical tests and how they don’t really make a hill of beans. Up until I started researching this stuff, I was all for any tests that were deemed needed… now I’m learning very few have enough value to justify cost/risk.

  147. Jwigg says:

    Dear Mart & Fellow Bloggers

    Let’s dare the body of Christ in USA to put this issue under the burning lens of Holy Scripture!

    God’s charge against the “shepherds” of ancient Judah was:

    4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.
    Ezekiel 34:4-6 (New International Version)

    Plainly, earthly rulers are responsible to almighty God for the care of the sick and the vulnerable in their nations. God will ask these shepherds in that great and terrible day what they did for the poor, the alien, the widow and the orphan [Ps 68:5,6].

    18 “The sorrows for the appointed feasts
    I will remove from you;
    they are a burden and a reproach to you.

    19 At that time I will deal
    with all who oppressed you;
    I will rescue the lame
    and gather those who have been scattered.
    I will give them praise and honor
    in every land where they were put to shame.
    Zephaniah 3:18-19 (New International Version)

    The God of the universe has no interest in an empty piety long on “big event” spirituality, but too short on gathering in and caring for the poor, the lame, the blind and the outcasts of this world [Luke 14:12-23; Matthew 25:31-46].

    The Word and will of God must decide this issue for the powerful, wealthy nation of USA … not the the vested interests of big business and the failed ideologies of political and economic theorists.

  148. poohpity says:

    Xavier, my mom was in hospice due to the fact that she signed a Living Will and only wanted medication to stop the pain but wanted to die with dignity and that is exactly how they treated her in Hospice. My family on the other hand had never read her instructions and gave me grief upon grief because they wanted things done differently. They wanted things the way they wanted things and not at all what my mom wanted but I followed her direction and lost my mom when it was her time to go in peace and I have also lost the rest of my family because they wanted what they wanted and called me everything but who I am. It is very important for people to get a Living Will so there is not all the problems going on with everyone else’s opinions and it stops confusion.

    Lively, I wanted you to read before I gave my take on the bill. I would like to say that in my opinion it is just to cover the money that has been taken out of Medicare and Social Security of those that have paid into the fund and it was very misused and now the government has to cover their tracks for the abuse of those funds. Medicare within the last six months has already been affected and the recipients are paying more for their medical care and medicines because of the problems. This is just one area that will be affected and those who opt out of this new health care will also be fined and so much more rhetoric you will be amazed and bewildered.

  149. xrgarza says:

    Lively, what church do you attend? I have even stopped listening to listener supported Christian radio for that very reason.

    The Apostle Paul never took an offering to support his ministry, he built tents.

    The Bible says that a man is worthy of his hire, I don’t have a problem listening to commercials on the radio, there are a lot of Christian business that would love to advertise.

    Imagine for a minute if all of the Christian artist that have their music played on the radio supported their own ministry, radio stations would not have to rely on the listeners for support.

    How can anybody minister to a hurting world by saying “I have hope for you, but you have to pay for it” so many have capitalized on hope and on the gospel, that is a primary reason I love RBC the Daily Bread has helped so many people in their walk, in times of need, because the material is available to all, its not for sale. The people who need the most help usually are the ones that can’t afford the help.

    Praise God for RBC, and thank you RBC for your faithfulness, God has richly blessed you, you mighty warrior and faithful servant.

    Xavier

  150. poohpity says:

    Good words Jwigg!!

  151. poohpity says:

    Rocky the bible does say to provide for those who lead the flock although Paul provided on his own he still admonished the church to provide.

  152. poohpity says:

    RBC still needs the support to keep it’s ministry going but it does not ask for the support I still give to keep it alive.

  153. xrgarza says:

    pooh, thanks, my mother doesn’t have a living will but she has an advance directive.

    Praise God that even though my brothers and sister all handle adversity differently, we have all joined together and have agreed to honor that.

    Continue to keep us all in prayer as we continue this journey, my mother has not eaten in over 30 days & still has a lot of strength, she can still communicate with us, however her body is beginning to shut down, she had two seizures this morning.

    Xavier

  154. poohpity says:

    Rocky, know that my heart is weeping with you during this time and know that the God of Peace is standing with your family and you through this. It is a very hard time and confusing. I love you and send hugs your way.

  155. xrgarza says:

    Pooh,

    You are absolutely correct, don’t get me wrong there is however a big difference between providing for our spiritual leaders and them capitalizing on or trying to capitalize on our giving.

    In times past priest would take a vow of poverty, and ministers would live humble lives, today I hear pastors saying things like “keep your dollar bills, we only want the big stuff”

    Its offensive what some pastors do, that’s who I’m referring to.
    In Deuteronomy, we read that the tithes and offerings were to help the widows & the orphans and every three years the priest.

    Xavier/Rocky

  156. xrgarza says:

    I love you too Deb, thanks for the hugs, I pass them around
    Rocky

  157. poohpity says:

    Besides the offerings which is what the Levites lived off of they were to leave the fields for gleaning and every three months the offering was to go to the less fortunate which were the aliens, widows and orphans and poor. There were many provisions in God word to provide so that everyone would have enough to live off of and their needs were taken care of but as we can tell those things have been forgotten today. All debts were to be forgiven in 7 years and the land was to lay uncultivated and only the crops that came up during that time by themselves were for eating. It is beautiful the way the Lord planned for all the needs of the people.

    Steve, was it McCain or Kyle? I know I petitioned Kyle to sign a bill that would help over a 10 year period for Global poverty and health pandemics around the world and he had to add on his little extra to the bill which really upset me.

  158. poohpity says:

    Sorry Steve those are our Senators my representative is Jeff Flake for my district in Congress. Was it him who said the 15%?

  159. pegramsdell says:

    Rocky, my heart is yours too. Please know that I am praying for you. So sorry. Peg

  160. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Stacey,
    Please forgive me for my statements the other day about free hospital and free ambulances etc.
    I really had no idea your husband was needing a kidney transplant.
    We have just started this idea of partners from different couples “matching up” and recently did our first six way swap where all the doners matched the recipient.
    I wish there was someway I could swap places with you and your hubby right now so that you could come here and get it all done and really have to pay nothing.
    It must be so difficult having to tie together all these differnt types of insurances and payment assistance etc.
    I am reminded of the time I worked in Frankfurt Germany. It was about five years after unification with the east and I was working with an east german.
    He was shocked to learn he had to get his car insured because in the east the state covered all the bills if someone was injured and there was no thought to pay for cover.
    Now even to me that seems over the top, but the idea of paying all this money to have a kidney replaced seems that rediculous to me also.
    I do hope so much that your “Elected People” can sort this out and that your country gets a good deal.
    Bob

  161. xrgarza says:

    Pooh,
    You are so right, I was going to mention all of that but I already felt like I was getting a little wordy

    Thank you Peg for your prayers.

    Hey! There’s got to be a silver lining somewhere, you know, I can’t wait till that cloning process gets improved. Could you imagine two of me? The bible does say one will put a thousand to flight and two will put ten thousand to flight.

    I’m kidding I’m kidding

    Love you all
    Rocky

  162. Lively says:

    Okay – I’m on page 60 and I absolutely can’t agree to this legislation.

    Aside from all the other stuff around it – what is the point of “universal” coverage if your claims can be denied? If they won’t be, why is there language in the legislation for a denial process?

    Some of it, I agree with. But the fact that claims can still be denied seems to be counterintuitive. Further, a family would be required to pay $10,000 as a “cost sharing” on top of premiums. And, insurance companies will be capped for earnings. I’m no fan of insurance companies – but seems to me that is not good policy if you want healthy companies.

    This is in the first 60 pages!

    Back to reading.

  163. Lively says:

    Bob – as they say in that other colony… no worries, mate! I honestly didn’t take your comment personally.

    The hospital that we’ll have it done at has a great rep and did the largest organ “swap” known – 18 “trades” in a week period, I think it was. Needless to say I’m pleased we’re able to have it done there and they are covered by our insurance – not that that would matter – that hospital makes insurance companies “play nice”

    I also wanted to point out the there are several hospitals that treat EVERYONE and makes sure the treatment doesn’t break the back of that person. St. Jude’s is the top one that comes to mind.

  164. MGNelson says:

    Wow. So many different conversations since yesterday am when I commented.

    Jorge, you give some very insightful commentary to this convoluted, complicated subject. No easy answer for any of this debate.

    I’m reminded of stories my mother told me regarding my grandfather who was a dentist during the depression. She remembers their back porch filled with vegetables and having chickens running around-payment for work my granddad did on patients who could not afford to pay him cash. Imagine going to your dentist with a 50 pound sack of potatoes (worth what? $10 at the most) and squaring up a bill for filling a cavity($85??).

    My point being-and this from a person with many family members in the human health care profession from physicians to nurses to hospital administrators-the health care industry tends focus on the bottom line. I know they need to stay in business to serve others, but as with other businesses are CEO salaries of millions of dollars really the best use of patients money? Do board of director members really need to earn a part-time salary in the six figures? Honestly, can the average minimum wage earn, who probably can’t finance health insurance on their own, pay for a $155 doctor visit? What would they have to give up for the month to pay this bill if they got sick?

    I don’t think a major overhaul of the health insurance is going to do anyone any good until these issues and more are addressed starting with health care industry and insurance lobbyists influencing the vote.

    This is coming from a person who has been denied insurance in the past for a pre-existing condition and its a little unsettling to find out after years of paying for insurance when one goes from an employer sponsored insurance to an individual one (with the same company) that you are no longer insurable.

    The system’s broke, it needs fixing, but I don’t propose to know how to fix it. As others have said, I think we Christians need to lead the way to pray to God to intervene in this issue and to provide the answer.

  165. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Good day! Cobba, as they also say in that “other colony”

    I am sure Mart will bring this topic to a close very soon and I want to thank you Mart for leaving it open for so long with nearly 200 comments it must be one of the most popular subjects on here for awhile.
    I got to my friend yesterday in hospital, two hours each way and three buses (about 16 miles) and he is doing well but has to stay in for more tests today.
    This discussion has realy opened my eyes to how you guys manage your affairs and that you have put too much trust in the free market and big bussiness to give you high standards and a “good” life.
    Please don’t get bogged down in morals and principles as you are dealing with fundemental issues here that effect millions of lives.
    Look long and hard and you will be supprised at what God can do.
    We are by no means perfect here, but our people do not have to suffer twice like you do, once by ill health and again by an ill pocket.
    Bob

  166. Lively says:

    MGN – there are more than just a few provisions in the bill that are meant to try and fix the insurance company issues and prtotect “clients” from the greed.

    I’m still not happy with the bill, but I have to admit I am 100% for some aspects of it. (Almost) Everyone would have the meds they need and everyone could see a doc for basic treatment. People won’t have to wait until they are seriously ill with something like strep to go to the ER to get treatment.

    I’m going to read more today.

  167. sbrewster says:

    As this debate has raged on throughout the nation, I’ve often heard Christians lead the charge against a “socialized America” and accuse the President of being a socialist. My question is: wasn’t Jesus a socialist? Didn’t the early church practice socialism? Acts 2::44 “All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts…”

    If it’s good for the church to practice socialism, is it duplicitous to say the government should not?

  168. SFDBWV says:

    Deb, My appologies to you, as I do not recall the name of the Congresman who was speaking, I only remembered that he represented Phoenix, that only registered with me because of you.

    I have nothing more to say about the subject, it sickens me and I am tired of it.

    The liberal socialists in our government fear that the American people are going to vote them out this next election, so they are pressuring members as well as finding ways to force their minority will upon the majority of the rest of us. Nothing new about that.

    Why can’t we call Christmas, Christmas or Easter, Easter any more…Why don’t we have prayer in our schools, why is it illegal to have the ten commandments shown in our courts or have a Nativity erected on public parks?…..Because of the same people who want to force this issue, not knowing or caring what it even says.

    It breaks my heart to see America under the control of such devious and decieving, people.

    It also saddens me to see so many professing Christians be decieved by another lie, from the same author of lies.

    No need for the hens in the bird house to peck at me, I won’t be back to the blog until the subject changes, if even then.

    Steve

  169. Mart De Haan says:

    As a number of us have commented, the political issues surrounding the present health care debate are difficult and complex.

    It is even more difficult for those of us on either side of the political spectrum to be as discerning as we can be in the political choices before us without losing the perspectives of “the kingdom of God”… and the priorities of our first citizenship…

  170. Lively says:

    Steve – I hope you read this. As my son says in the sweetest little voice… don’t go…

    One thing I think might be worth mentioning – my husband and I strongly disagree regarding this bill. We’ve debated our views and can’t find a middle ground – we’ve agreed to disagree. It’s not the first time we’ve held differing views – but we’re still very happily married.

    He is all for it, even with its shortfalls. We talked about it last night. His POV is focused on our children – he doesn’t want the girls or our son to face the same problems. I understand his view point.

    He never meant to have children (obviously, God had different plans for him!), as it is very likely that our son has the same disease he does, it is genetic. He was diagnosed with it before he was even born. It appeared that he had cysts on his kidneys when I was about 4 months pregnant. He really is a miracle baby, they said more than likely I’d miscarry, or he’d be born stillborn or if he did survive, he’d need a transplant before he was 6 months old. About 8 hours after he was born, they did an ultrasound on him – not a cyst in sight. The tech who did the ultrasound was so exuberant, she got permission to come to our room and tell us (very much against hospital policy!)

    I’m still very much against it as it is written. I want them to go back to the drawing board and put more thought into it. I don’t trust the direction our government is taking us.

    What we both agree on is God’s in control and no matter what the outcome of this issue is we both trust Him, absolutely. So either way, as long as His Will be Done we’re good…

  171. poohpity says:

    “Our Daily Bread” for today is sooooo relevant to this topic.

    Kingsdaughter, hope all is well for you and you are missed.

    Daisy, I miss you and your comments.

    No matter what goes on in any country or what our views are on politics we simply must remember who we are in Christ. Many folks including me get their feelings hurt by others when we address any issue with finger pointing and it would be nice if we as followers of Christ could give more thought to the things we say and ask if it is beneficial to lift up the kingdom of God and encourage others in their journey or will it tear someone down. I know I need to do a better job at it myself.

  172. scout1 says:

    Howdy!

    Let’s think about this: Remember Gideon? The Lord took his BIG army down to 300! Why don’t the small number of us here on this web blog -pray. At a certain time, in one accord! That is where our power is! Prayer! What changes a small number make when they call upon Gods’ Power! What ya think??

  173. poohpity says:

    Proverbs 12:18; Some people make cutting remarks, but the words of the wise bring healing.

  174. poohpity says:

    Very good action, scout1.

  175. Grace48 says:

    PROVERBS 31:9 “OPEN YOUR MOUTH, JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY, AND PLEAD THE CAUSE OF THE POOR AND NEEDY.”

  176. Radiance says:

    This bill is not about Healthcare it is about the government having more ‘control’ over the American people it is socialism. It is about ‘forcing’ Americans to buy a product whether they want it or not. This is the issue that many of our states attorneys have taken up.

    Christian discipleship is a matter of loving God and neighbor. We are accountable to God for everything that is entrusted to us – talent, time, resources of nature, skills, everything.
    We are to worship God and God alone, not things, other people, not institutions, not the government.
    Socialists are now marching under the banner of a new secular-progressive type of freedom – the freedom from responsibility, the freedom from want, the freedom from religion and the freedom to have material equality with those who work harder and accomplish more. ”. The Socialist definition of equality is not equality of opportunities but an equality of outcomes. They are already changing the schools so nothing about religion is allowed. The government is now taking over health care. What’s next?

    This bill has now passed and I don’t know if anyone is still reading this blog, but I also wanted to express my views.
    I also think we have a responsibility to take care of ourselves (as God lives within us) and encourage others to do the same.
    God bless you all and to all Good night.

  177. Cavan says:

    Why, when Jesus was the ultimate socialist, is ‘socialism’ such a bad word to Americans? I’m British by birth but in America, as I am married to an American lady and have two American daughters plus many American friends.

    Socialism is basically about sharing. Yes, there are failed socialist states but they are not examples of true socialism. They are corrupted by the greed of people. Whatever specific acts you object to, Socialism is the consideration of society as a whole rather than just what we can grab and keep.

    To some the objection to the healthcare bill is the fact of government control. Tis is probably the only reasonable objection a Christian could make but perhaps if government were allowed to control some things as they should, then they would succeed more often. Too often in America there is so much compromise that government does indeed fail. But government provision of many services, including health care, works perfectly well in many countries, including my original home England – no I in no way say England is better than any other country. There are many things I dislike intensely about the country of my birth. But government control is not, by definition, a failure. Who would you trust most? Government who can be voted out of power and hence have to at least try to keep people happy – or Insurance companies who have no morals and answer only to the bottom line?

    Some people object on principle: People who consider themselves good Christians still object to paying for those who have not contributed. But this is completely against the teachings of Christ. It is wrong to put our sense of fairness, what we believe to be correct, before what the Lord said. Not only did Jesus indicate that those who squander their resources be loved and given what they need (the prodigal son for example) but he said that we should give to those who actively harm us: If a man takes your cloak, don’t stop him taking your tunic also…

    America was built on standing alone, being self sufficient, struggling and providing for oneself. But that was of necessity. Those days are gone. There are no lone pioneers. We live in societies.

    The basic message of Jesus was love. Who would allow those they love to go without? It wasn’t about amassing wealth at the expense of others. Richness for some, the ability to pay for things and services, is comparative. Some are considered rich only because the many are poor. Not everyone can succeed and have that earthly wealth. Just as we all vary in the colour of our eyes or our height so we vary in our mental ability to succeed. For every success there are a hundred failures. There are those who will never even start out on the road to greatness in any field. No matter how hard they try. You can strive as hard as you can and still fail. The 20% who can’t get healthcare in the US are not at fault.

    Jesus was against the accumulation of wealth: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Or He who does not give up all he owns is no disciple of mine…

    We are wrong to put our worldly view in place of the Lords view.

    Socialised medicine can work and follows the teachings of Christ.

    It is also quite ridiculous to complain that being forced to pay for something is unconstitutional. We are all, quite rightly, forced to pay taxes to pay for those services used by society, even if we personally never have to use them. If you are not Christian, then you are on the wrong board reading this, if you are then you should be glad to share what you have with any that ask, whether you consider they deserve it or not. Just as Jesus did.

  178. poohpity says:

    I think the topic was not a affirmation for any type of government, it was about how we conduct ourselves as Christians in any situation. We would all like people who need to see a medical person to be able to do that no matter what type of government we live under. We all have a government to answer to in some form or another but how would the Lord like us to do that and it is outlined in scripture but are we listening. Are we as Christians really receptive or open to the Lord’s leading in our response to anything.

  179. foreverblessed says:

    Proverbs 31:9 was very very appropriate here.
    When you are a christian you can say amen to that.
    Now how do you do this?
    I feel what Cavan wants to say, as I am European, and we have pretty socialistic ways of doing things here, even without a socialistic party in the lead.
    Education is also paid by the government through our tax paying, why not the medical care?
    If the government does not do it, than the christian world would have to do much more to fill in the gap. To help those who fall in a ditch. Because that is what Jesus wants us to do.

  180. Grace48 says:

    Am guessing it would start with the very thing that this “me centered” world does not want to hear but that Christians are supposed to understand: to put others well-being as a priority over money, wrong judgements over who “deserves ” or works hard enough to “deserve”help.,etc. Sacrificial love. Is it possible anymore? Those who fall in a ditch and are helped may very well be the only one willing to help someone else when they fall in a ditch because they know what it felt like to be lying there alone and dying.

  181. Positive Thinker says:

    President Oboma did raise the tax on tabacco quite a bit to help poor sick children who could not afford to go to a doctor to get treated and be made well to grow up to be Good American citizens. A $10.00 6oz can of loose tobacco now costs 32.00 now. I think God is happy the President raised the tobacco tax to go to help poor sick american children. Maybe God will bless the good tabocco smokers who don’t complain about the higher tax on tabacco as long as it is going to help sick chidren to become well, go to school and grow up to be good law abiding citizens. God Bless.

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