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Slippery Slopes and Safety Rails

I’ve been taking another look at the “slippery slope” argument that some of us use to defend our conservative values and beliefs.

As I understand it, the point of “the slippery slope” is similar to the idea that “if you give some people an inch, they will take a mile.”  In both cases, being careless or naive can result in ending up somewhere we didn’t want to go.

Admittedly, where “slippery slopes” exist, they deserve to be taken seriously. The picture above is of an ominous looking Hoover Dam overflow drain. At least, by appearance, it illustrates real physical danger. On the left, a steep slope in Jerusalem’s Valley of Gehenna, an ancient city dump used as an image of “hell” in the New Testament. It represents the greatest of all spiritual dangers.

But here’s what I’ve been wondering. Is a “slippery slope” warning appropriate for matters that may be more about conserving traditional views of “assumption” and “perspective” than they are about protecting the most important truths and principles of the Bible?

My guess is that many of us have heard the “slippery slope” argument used over the years for issues that include but are not limited to departing from the King James Version of the Bible; drinking alcohol even in moderation; allowing divorce in instances of abuse; admitting that the days of creation in Genesis may not have been 7 literal 24 hour days; entering into honest conversation with those with whom we have doctrinal disagreements; or allowing women into positions of church leadership, teaching etc.

Tel Aviv Stairway

Admittedly, the mention of any one of these issues could be a source of argument or conflict among us. But that’s exactly the point. Issues for which the “slippery slope” argument are used are typically not clear and foundational issues of biblical faith.

Instead, in matters of far less importance, the “slippery slope” warning is used to suggest that– somewhere– prior to what the Bible clearly and necessarily means– our spiritual conclusions and destinies are determined.

So, here’s what I’m thinking. If, after carefully listening to both sides of an issue, we are convinced that the matter at hand involves a clear and necessary implication of Scripture, then we do need to honor the truthful and loving principle of that Scripture. But, if we find that there really is room for disagreement, it’s hard for me to believe that the only thing we are left with is a slippery slope into the pit of heresy.

I’m convinced that whenever we are faced with “possible” rather than “necessary” implications of the Bible, there are always– for the slope on which we must walk– “safety rails”, “fences,” or “level” places for anyone who wants to stop sliding.

The Scriptures are full of hand rails that, for example, enable those who aren’t sure that the picture of Genesis is 7 literal 24 hour days– to still grasp other clearer historical claims of the Bible. For those who can’t find clear prohibitions of alcohol, there are plenty of warnings about drunkenness. For those who believe that marital abuse can be equal to the worst kind of unfaithfulness, the Scriptures continue to uphold God’s ideal of marital faithfulness for promise-keeping husbands and wives. etc.

I remember a day when some thought not dressing up for church amounted to a slippery slope that would end up with a complete lack of respect and reverence for God. But all the while… for certain– and without question–our Bibles were warning us more about “dressing to look good” while concealing hearts that were actually hiding from God.

Seems to me that we need to look for those times when “slippery slope” warnings are often more about “control” and “intimidation” than about taking called for risks of real faith, truth, and love…

That’s my take. Would like to hear yours.

PS Because I can see from some of the following comments that I didn’t make my point clear, here is a sentence summary: Those truths that the Bible emphasizes, clarifies, illustrates, and teaches by repetition are safety rails for walking through the slippery places of the issues we tend to disagree about.


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157 Responses to “Slippery Slopes and Safety Rails”

  1. poohpity says:

    I was on my way to bed and noticed a new post. I then was going to wait until morning but a hundred things came to mind about slippery slopes in the bible. I am tried so I hope to make some sort of sense in this.

    The slippery slope of lying. Abraham told the half truth of his wife being his sister and so did Isaac. Rahab about the spies. It seems these were a matter of the heart in the end.

    How about marrying one spouse yet the twelve tribes came from multiple wife’s of Jacob. Who also deceived his own brother out of his birth right.

    How about Judah and Tamar? Now that was a slippery slope yet their descendant was Jesus. Or marrying a person from another faith like Boaz and Ruth also from whom Jesus came.

    Working on the Sabbath by rubbing hands together to get grain to eat. David getting the bread of presence from the Temple.

    I think the proof of how Jesus confronted the religious leaders with carrying things to the extreme. The slopes Jesus presented to the religious leaders were the ones that kept people from coming to Him. I think we can see our own hearts and the reason we try and hold others to such high standards that it eventually pushes people away from God rather than to Him. It seems to be a matter of the heart in every situation. Whether we elevate ourselves above others with bible knowledge or whether we live it ourselves.

    Knowing that no one can live a perfect life can we show as much grace as we have been shown. If we feel we are in such a level of perfection that we deserve the grace then we miss the whole point of what Jesus tried to teach the religious leaders their need of a savior.

    So as I have read and understand that the heart in many areas is the final testing ground for God. We can really look within at the motives of any action and God knows the heart in any slippery slope and is the best and final judge. I hope I made some sense. The bible has many slippery slope stories to really prove our humanity compared to His Holiness.

  2. poohpity says:

    I think our safety rail is Jesus and I am so glad that no matter how many times I have fallen down a slippery slope He is there to give us a hand up then maybe we will not be so quick to judge someone else.

  3. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    As a gay man who likes a pint of beer and a chat with friends in the pub, I sometimes come into conflict with attitude in the church.
    It seems some, not all, “christians” are a bit like the pharisees and are trying to be holier than Jesus Himself.
    Take comunion wine for instance, as a young christian many years ago I was always told to use real wine as this was what Jesus used and it is a representation of His blood, but in my church we have to use a vial tasting blackcurrent juice that, to me, represents nothing. On the same take, I have just used plain water and a biscuit because it was after midnight and we had nothing else to hand when praying.
    I feel “The Church” needs to take a long hard look at the way in comes accross to people as being holier than thou in the way it acts.
    While I agree we are to be “set apart” and sanctified, we also live in a real practical world as should be “normal” in the way live.

    Bob

  4. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    sorry, in a hurry to get to work this morning. meant to say “AND should be “normal” in the way live.”

  5. bubbles says:

    Please don’t take this as a disagreement–more like a question.
    For instance, when we look at the 4 women who were honored by being listed in the line of Jesus, could God have been trying to show us that he uses many types of people in spite of their backgrounds? I always thought Rahab believed that God was the only true God when she spoke to the spies about how God had parted the Red Sea.
    She became Boaz’s mother.

    Even though each of these women came from difficult circumstances, God used them.

    When Jacob had 12 sons that came from four mothers, his family put the fun in dysfunctional. God took that bad decision and used it for good. And, Rachael, stole her family’s idols when they left. Is this why she isn’t buried with Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, and Leah? Did God take her life because she was not what she should have been?

    So, my question is were these slippery slopes, or were they just unwise choices that God still used to accomplish His purposes, and to show us He can use us even though we make wrong choices?

  6. SFDBWV says:

    Todays subject has taken me straight to Revelation…

    2:4 “Nevertheless I have some-what against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.”
    :5 ” Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

    The slippery slope of falling away from Christ, Christ warns us of in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation.

    I for one do not take a direct warning from Jesus Christ lightly.

    Being a Christian does come with some responsibility. The first of which is to be a living example of living a Holy life.

    Sure we fall down once in a while and err, but this does not mean we abandon all the principals of holy living just because we will be forgiven if we do.

    We cannot come into a life style that says let every man do as he sees right. God has given us rules to live by and examples of what happens when we don’t.

    Revelation 2:25 “But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.”

    This isn’t as easy as I wish it were. Too many wolves in sheep’s clothing whisper in my ear ” it’s ok God will forgive you, go ahead….eat of the fruit…”

    Revelation 3:21 ” To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne.”

    Overcometh….we have much to overcome especialy the warnings God Himself, through His Son Jesus Christ, gives here in these chapters of Revelation…

    Revelation 3:22 ” He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

    Dear brothers and sisters, please be very careful of what we accept into our hearts…The temple of God

    I will be praying today, for all of us to be in that sphere of love and protection, that God keep evil from our hearts.

    Steve

  7. Lively says:

    Good morning everyone- it’s been awhile since I’ve posted, life has been intersting… if I remember correctly, that’s a curse in some cultures.

    We touched on this subject is one my family touched on last night during our Bible study. I’m of the mind that the only true “slippery slopes” are those issues that cause discord within the Body of Christ. The Bible states in several places to put aside “foolish disputes” and for us to be mindful of our actions(and words) 2 Cor 10:5 tells us to hold each thought captive and make it obedient to God. Prior to that it says, “We demolish arguements and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God” Isn’t that what most of our “slippery slopes” are? The arguements and pretensions of humanity against the Word of God? Our need to justify our traditions or feelings?

    I echo the sentiments of Steve – we all should be very careful of what we accept into our hearts. There are somethings that the Lord asks of us that we aren’t going to like very much – I think we’ve all been in that posistion before.

    Phil 2:14 Do everything without complaining or *arguing*, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe

    If we accept the Word as the Truth, test each thought as we are told, do everything without arguing and stand fast in our Faith and trust that He is at work in our lives – no net or rail will be needed because we’ll not be on the precipice of a slippery slope to begin with.

    Stacy

    p.s. did you know that there is only 5% chance that spouses will match as an organ donor?

  8. Loretta Beavis says:

    Using myself as an example of slipping on a lotta slopes; I’ve had to decide if I am going to live a life of “faith that works” or doubt God and do whatever is right in my own mind. (There’s a few scriptures in the old testament that described people doing this).

    This past week, my thoughts shifted from a heart “waiting on God” to a heart demanding action. Considered some actions (since divorce was mentioned) to do on my own because that’s what everyone else does and I just need to “get this over with.”
    Well, by the time I left the worship service Sunday, I got a clear, spiritual answer from God in a world setting. One of the worship songs, (can’t remember title) includes the words: Savior, He can move the mountains.

    God’s told me He’s moving mountains right now.

    So, like the excellent comments and examples poohpity described, especially Rahab!
    …look at God’s perspective-the mountains He moves rather than me thinking God can’t handle this and I’m going to start shoveling sand or some “miss the target” action.

    I can’t get what I want to say quite right, but it’s like looking down (at the slippery slope) rather than looking up (to God). When I teach people to ride, the phrase is: if you look down, you fall down.

  9. chfranke says:

    Bubbles, being a regular sinner, I like the points you make about God still being able to use people to accomplish His purposes. It echo’s what Poohpity said, “The bible has many slippery slope stories to really prove our humanity compared to His Holiness.” David and Bathsheba is another story that comes to mind.
    Since we are talking about slippery slopes, I’d like to use an example right here on this page.
    Bob in Cornwall (and all), please give me some grace here, I don’t want to come off as judgmental or trying to start a fight; just trying to understand and apply today’s subject in a real life way.
    I started off my post “Being a regular sinner,” but you started off your post “As a gay man.” What is the difference?
    My sins are between me and God (not your business). When Bob says he’s a gay man, doesn’t that flaunt the sin and try to force us to go out on a slippery slope in our thinking? Are we not “looking down” like Loretta just posted?
    If this has been covered in a past blog, just refer me to it and I’ll look it up.
    Thanks,
    Chuck

  10. poohpity says:

    Mart said, “As I understand it, the point of “the slippery slope” is similar to the idea that “if you give some people an inch, they will take a mile.” In both cases, being careless or naive can result in ending up somewhere we didn’t want to go”. I think that would cover flaunting sin.

    Areas that may cause division in churches like women holding leadership roles due to 2 books out of the 66. There are many other areas that many have concentrated on rather than God can and will use whom ever He wants to accomplish His will. God can use the sin in someones life to “turn it” around to help others in that area to “turn toward” God. Like many have said we have to be very careful at what direction this conversation can go.

  11. xrgarza says:

    Goodmorning all, seems like an interesting topic, I just woke up & Ím going to have breakfast & then I will be going home hopefully, I will respond tonight or in the morning.

    I jus want to leave a message for Jason, telling him that I responded to his post in the previous blog.

    Rocky

  12. scout1 says:

    Howdy!

    What a great topic! Instead of “slippery slope” -my family has used the term -“gray areas”. There are so many Bible stories and examples of gray areas that my mind just can’t grab hold of the understanding of them.

    Like when God told Hosea to marry Gomer. That marriage was to symbolize the unfaithfulness of God’s people. But how did Hosea feel? Or, why God allowed the “younger to serve the older” with Jacob and Esau. That was not the custom at the time. So many examples (like the ones Poohpity used in the first post).

    God’s ways are not our ways -that’s for sure. We will never understand His wisdom and reasoning -just trust that they are absolute perfection. My question is this: how do you know when you are to follow the principles in the Bible that are straight forward or when God is applying a “gray area” to your life???

    That is the 64,000 dollar question. I have seen Christian get so beaten down because they followed the basic principles -when God was applying a “gray area”. I think that knowing God is in control and can do as He sees fit (like when he dealt with Job) leaves many, many possibilities open . . . yet without taking liberty of our own desires or thoughts. . .

    Blessings -:)

  13. Jason says:

    Hello all, when I was in my teens and early twenties I was definately on a slippery slope. I was drinking and doing drugs and all I wanted to do was party. I managed to turn my life around and find God and now I’ve been clean and sober for over 13 years. I know I wouldn’t have my job or have met my wife if I hadn’t had this type of past. I believe God uses our experiences to teach us and allow us to help others with the same problems. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe Moses was a murderer and look how God was able to use him.

    Peace and blessings,
    Jason

  14. Regina says:

    Good Afternoon, Fellow Bloggers,

    Poohpity – Thank you for explaining what you meant in one of your statements in the Mediation blog topic. No hard feelings. :-)

    Blessings,

  15. Regina says:

    Mart,

    Awesome blog topic! The pictures are great too.

    I’ve discovered that, most of the time, when someone engages in a slippery slope argument/warning with a person (or many people), he/she is not interested (at that moment) in protecting foundational truths and principles. He/she is more interested in persuading whomever to agree with their point of view.

    Case in point, I was watching Christian television about 4 – 6 months ago, and I heard a well known Pastor say that he no longer believes in a “literal” hell. He lost a lot of friends and his church because of what he believes now.

    I could say so much more about that… To make a long thought process short, he’s teaching new converts (babes in Christ) that there is no literal hell, which goes against what the Bible says.

    Pastor ???’s actions seem more dangerous than a slippery slope argument to me because he’s actually teaching people–many people–to believe something that’s not true. My first initial thoughts before reading the other comments.

    Blessings,

  16. bubbles says:

    oops. When the 4 women that the Lord chose to honor by listing their names in the line of Christ, I failed to say God chose to tell us of their choices to sin. Their stories were recorded honestly, sin and all. However, He did not tell us their sin was pleasing or acceptable to him.
    Good intentions are not always ‘right’ intentions. Proverbs 3 tells us to “Be not wise in thine own eyes, fear the Lord, and depart from evil.”

  17. saled says:

    What bothers me most about slippery slope arguments is that they tend to present just part of the truth and cover part. A case in point: a deacon in my church who believed it was best to tell church members that the wine involved in Jesus’ first miracle was not alcoholic. Otherwise, they might slide down the slippery slope into alcoholism. This deacon’s motives were to protect church members, but it wasn’t the truth. Maybe if we taught moderation in food and drink, we would have fewer alcoholics and less obesity.

    Maybe we should picture the slippery slope like the Knife Edge on Mt. Katahdin. You can slide down either side. In his book ‘Celebration of Discipline,’ Richard Foster uses this illustration. On one side is moral bankruptcy through human strivings for righteousness. On the other side is moral bankruptcy through the lack of human striving. The path along the the narrow edge is what Foster calls disciplined grace. It puts us in the place where God can change us. Yes, I think slippery slopes are two-sided, like the Knife Edge.

  18. brandon73 says:

    I agree with Mart. I like the ‘Knife Edge’ principle discussed by saled. Loretta Beavis’s idea of look down, fall down is a good addage.

    All are dangers:
    We can throw out God’s word,
    we can add in our own words disguised as an interpretation or the interpretations of others we’ve blindly believed.

    Walking a knife edge needs constant attention and focus.
    But Jesus said, ‘My yoke is easy and my burden is light.’ Jesus said a few other things about following him too. (that don’t look or sound so easy)

    The awesomeness of God is that it was this way 2 minutes ago and it is this way 2 mins in the future. He’s brought us to this point amidst our sinfulness. I know I daily miss the mark. Thank you Jesus for your work in us.

  19. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Good Morning,
    I always read this blog as part of my early morning time with the Lord, I get up at 5am. for work at 7 which gives me an hour with God first thing.
    As my mind is not full of the days activities I can hopefully hear the Holy Spirit more plainly than later in the day.
    This morning while reading, Genesis came to mind, and that the first slippery slope was when satan said to Eve “Hath God Said?”.
    It seems to me that the slippery slope starts with a thought or suggetion but only becomes a pit to fall into if we ponder on it and allow it to grow. Like was said above, we must take each thought captive and interigate our motives before we let that thought take control of us.

    Chuck,
    I started my blog with “as a gay man” because that is who I am. I do not consider my sexuality a sin, it is only a sin when I act on it in the same way anyone who commits adultery or such is sinning, but to have sexual desire is how we are made. Again we must take and hold these thoughts captive else they will hold us captive. We have been set free from the law of sin and death.

    Bob

  20. sbrewster says:

    It would be so much easier if God specifically addressed every detail of life…yet He purposely left us with “gaps” and “gray areas” to work through.

    As much as I would like it to be, life is not black and white, is it?

    Mart, I think you hit the nail on the head – often times we use the threat of the “slippery slope” especially in politics to push our conservative agenda and to control and intimidate those with opposing views and those who are diffrent. Our country has a scarred history of using this argument to set up unjust laws and we are still using it today.

    The “slippery slope” is fueled mostly by fear that things are changing in ways that we don’t agree with or understand. In Chirstianity, there is this nostalgia of longing for things to be the way they use to be – as though things were so great back then. Maybe for some, but for many – no.

    Yet few of us can deny the “slippery slope” in our nation – prayer outlaweed in school, legalized abortion, the heavy commercializtion of Christmas followed by the desire of many to wipe away all traces of the religious significance of the holiday (no gov’t public dispays ofthe Nativity) and the trending to an all ecumenical stance that touts inclusion and political correctness above all.

    When it comes to our personal walk, we are to be circumspect about our lives before God. While we are all sinners and all fall short – we are not to bask in a down trodden state and we are not to allow a brother or sister to be on “the slippery slope” without attempting to bring them back to the truth. In that sense it is not control but love. We are all sinners saved by grace.

  21. Ted M. Gossard says:

    Excellent post, Mart. I believe you really hit at a crux, maybe the crux of that matter.

    And even where we believe we must take a stand, I’m sure everyone here agrees that we must do so in love and in grace.

    On the gay issue, I agree with you, Bob that God accepts us where we’re at through Jesus. But I also disagree with you. This is tough, and I have no doubt from what I’ve read from you on this blog that you are one of God’s children through faith in Jesus. But Scripture, and Paul for one (in Romans 1, etc.) is most clear that heterosexual union mirrors creation and the Creator’s intention, whereas homosexual union does not. So I don’t believe this is in the category of disputable matters. I know good Christians who accept it as such. I must say, even sadly, yet firmly, I do not.

    But I do see us all as sinners in need of ongoing grace. God’s ongoing work in my life is part of the present tense salvation I need just as much as anyone else. God is there for us, and there’s no condemnation for those in Christ. The point I want to try to make here is- Are we moving toward conformity to Christ, or not? And are we going to throw stones at someone like Bob? I hope not, because we are all in as much need of grace as he.

  22. Mart De Haan says:

    I knew when I posted this that my thoughts and intent could be misunderstood, and I can tell from some of the early responses that I did not make myself clear.

    My point is that those principles that are emphasized, clarified, and illustrated in the Bible are the hand rails for walking through the more difficult and controversial issues of Scripture.

    The Apostle Paul, himself, seemed to acknowledge the existence of both certain and uncertain issues when he wrote to Timothy (while encouraging him not to become involved in arguments about words and disputable matters), “Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2Tim 2:19).

    I’m convinced that if we focus on the basics, our God will give us “level places” on which to walk the difficult slippery slopes of truth and life– with grace and love.

    Yes there are many slippery places. And, as Bob emphasizes, where our own fallen desires incline us toward danger we need to be very careful.

    My issue with the “slippery slope” argument is that it is too often used as a scare tactic in an effort to force compliance on a debatable issue.

  23. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, I admit your original topic posting confused me as to where you were trying to go with it.

    But even as I read your explanation of intended meaning, my earlier post still covers my thoughts.

    If we allow ourselves to get caught up in the intelectual confusion of nit picking every word of scripture to mean something different. (arguements)

    If we get lost or confused, then go back to the beginning….our first love. (Christ)

    If we are cofused or in danger of accepting a lie as truth, then hold fast to what little faith and knowledge you have.

    These postures are safety nets and handrails.

    There are a great many dangers out here for everyone. Spiritual dangers. Not only Paul but all of the books warn us of the spiritual dangers Christians face.

    It must be remembered that any fence or handrail can be climbed over, and not surprising, the results are bad.

    This is the danger, our stuborne nature not heeding warnings and through a combination of believing lies and wanting our own will….we climb over the handrail and fall to our doom. As warned from Christ there in Revelation 2:4-5

    Steve

  24. Mart De Haan says:

    Yes, Steve, I agree that we can intentionally and foolishly climb over the fences and handrails given to help us through difficult issues. And yes, our fallen nature inclines us to do so.

    But my thought again is that if we are looking for wisdom we will find it by focusing on what the Bible emphasizes, clarifies, illustrates, and repeats– not by being intimidated by those who say that if we don’t accept their arguable “take” that we will be putting ourselves on a “slippery slope of inevitable results”.

  25. Brother James says:

    Hello There. Peace of Christ.

    Slippery Slopes are only for the people who doesn’t know Jesus and what Pleases Him, for people that is looking for salvation instead of the SAVIOR..
    The bible “ILITERACY” of today’s world is worst than the ILITERACY OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES in the time of Jesus…..

    When a person has a relationship with Jesus and do what pleases Him, there is no Slippery Slopes….everything is product of satan….if the people Obey His Commandments and is Baptized in His Name and Knows and Understand and AcceptHis Oneness…no such a thing of Slippery Slopes, When the person becomes a Christian, he/she ought to FIX his eyes on Jesus…otherwise he/she is satan’s pray quick…

    God Bless…………Brother James

  26. chfranke says:

    Bob,
    Thank you for your post. I truly appreciate your calm non-defensive explanation. It was very helpful for me to see where you are coming from.

    Mart,
    My intent here is not to try to corner Bob. I love him as a brother in Christ and he is where he is and I’m good with that.

    That said, I am an alcoholic. When I take pint, I’m gone. Satan takes a pint. Then Satan takes me. Jesus Christ himself came to me personally and told me I didn’t need to drink. So I haven’t for 30 years. I don’t go to bars to be with alcoholics. It is my slippery slope.
    I suppose I’m at a point in my Christian life now where I could go into bars to befriend alcoholics so they would come to know Christ through me, but I’m uneasy about that.
    Perhaps that could happen if I went with another Christian who would hold me accountable and share my goal of befriending others there.
    Maybe that is a next step I should take.
    Ted,
    I still am where you are as well about the gay issue. Maybe at some point in the future God will show me differently.
    Chuck

  27. Mart De Haan says:

    Chuck, I appreciate your spirit and thought process as well. I think it illustrates a deep desire to hang on to the hand rails of what is most important in the way we treat one another while trying to think through matters of truth– that we are in a better position to judge in ourselves than in others.

  28. SFDBWV says:

    One of the slipperiest slopes I witness today is the *New* or *Emerging Churches*. Also a library full of books written by *experts* who get themselves published for telling people what they want to hear, about Christian issues.

    And yes…too many *new* translations of the Bible. That collide with accepted values and understanding of scripture, which right here on this blog have caused disagreements.

    This is what is important to me. Not to be as a reed blown in the wind. But to hold fast to what the Holy Spirit has taught me, in spite of a crowd of people who want me to believe something different because it has become the *in thing* to do.

    We have discussed what is called “tensions” from the Bible in an effort to find the truth. If we can do this without arguing it may be growing, but when we draw a line in the sand then it becomes an arguement of differing opinions.

    How do we not let others place us in a position of being vulnerable to such dangers as a downward slide?

    By being Bible literate, as Brother James has said….It is our best offence and defence against the enemy who would lead us astray.

    When confronted with false teaching and false doctrine, Paul got pretty upset. There was not any tolerence for such matters.

    False people, teach from a heart that is false, for whatever their personal gain may be. They are led either intentionaly or unintentionaly by a false spirit.

    We know who that false spirit is, and what his goal is. The slippery slope and downward spiral that leads to destruction….of both body and soul.

    Hold fast to when you first were saved, remember who it was who saved you. Put your trust in Him. Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ. Stay in a prayful attitude and fellowship with Him. When confronted with questions hold fast to what you know, and ask God for discernment. He is faithful.

    Steve

  29. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    Was thinking yesterday and this morning that sin is definitely a slippery slope. Some people (mistakenly) believe that God is going to overlook sin in their lives because they did everything else that He asked them to do.

    But that’s not true. The Bible says: Gal.6:7-8, “7) Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8) For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”

    Also want to add that it was mentioned in this blog that our brothers and sisters in Biblical times had faults and temptations just like us. Well, when Jesus was born into the world and died for our sins, God gave us a new covenant. Now, we’re saved by grace–it’s a gift from God. Eph. 2:8-9,NIV “8)For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

    Some people think that God is too gracious and loving to judge sin. That’s not true. The Bible says, in Romans 6:1-2;6-7: “1) Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2) Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?”

    v.6-7: “6) We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7) For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin.”

    Sadly, satan has deceived many people with the “slippery slope” of sin. God hates sin, but He loves the sinner, and He wants all sinners to repent. To make a decision to honor His statutes and commandments. The Bible says, in Matt. 7:21-23: “21)Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. 22)Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name? 23) And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].”

    Don’t get me wrong, we all have to pray daily that we don’t fall prey to temptation. That’s why it’s so important to resist temptation, and not put ourselves in positions & situations, in which we would be vulnerable to temptation. The Bible says that if we resist the devil, he has to flee (James 4:7).

    God has named some specific sins (via the ten Commandments and elsewhere in the Bible) that we should abstain from doing. Once a person indulges in certain types of sin, it’s very hard to be freed from it’s grip. Most of the time, the Holy Spirit has to free the person from those types of satanic strongholds.

    Romans 6:12-16, NLT
    12) Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. 13) Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14) Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace.

    15) Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16) Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.

    Blessings,

  30. phpatato says:

    Thank you sbrewster for asking the question…”life is not black and white, is it?”

    I have always believed that yes it is either black or white. There should be no grey area. Maybe that is where I go wrong. Maybe there are grey areas in life.

    I see a movement in today’s world of people pushing for concessions; people wanting everybody to be tolerant, for fear of offending, regardless of the cost. Things that are written in God’s word as being wrong, people are wanting others to look at it as being “well surely He didn’t mean it that way” or “here put these rose-coloured glasses on, it will help you to see more clearly how to relax your stiff outlook”. Maybe I am made of too much clay and I need a little more peat moss to help me blend in. I see my relaxing my stance as being on a slippery slope. Just how far can I relax before I’m a goner? There has to be a happy medium but that fine line is so thin. Is it possible to live life like a graph…the center line is straight and one should be able to slide softly either way and still be able to hold on?

    You will certainly have me pondering this thought today.

  31. kenhen says:

    I received an Email regarding this topic and it fit well with an issue I have with a professing saved loved-one concerning drinking alcohol. The “slippery slope” of moderate consumption is mingled with the “safety rails” of the following verses: Prov. 1:21; Prov. 31:4; Rom. 14:23; Prov:29-35; Isa. 28:7; and Isa. 5:22.

    Being disabled, I continually have an eye out for safety rails. To add another cliche: “better safe than sorry.”

  32. Mo Bo says:

    Frankly, I think we tend to look for ways to get around the Word of God and its clear teaching on many issues, if not by the actual Word, then by the principles contained within. I think this is driven by the culture in which we find ourselves. We tend to look for ways to justify what we want to do or are doing. This colors our view of our faith and practice. Grace and mercy and Christian liberty (easy believism) are taken way too lightly.

    Here’s an example not mentioned: “Minced oaths.” I even hear Godly pastors use them in their sermons as well as my wife, I might add, who has now unwittingly transferred it to our 5 year old granddaughter. I have been successful in eliminating them from my vocabulary and they cut into my heart and brain when I hear them used. There is no question where minced oaths come from. Why do we feel the need for euphemistic language that does not honor God even if that is not our intent?

    I had a friend who used cursing as a regular way of communicating and I’m sure he did not intend for it to dishonor God. It was simply the way he expressed himself. A slippery slope?? MoBo

  33. DaveSchwReno says:

    As my spiritual parent explains to us…

    Most Christians go through life with a “DO List” and a “DON’T List.” That is, lists of things that must be done or not done, according to scripture. While there is nothing wrong with this, these does and don’ts represent about 10% of our lives. What Christ really wants from us is the 90% in the middle – between the lists.

    Before becoming a Christian I was an Orthodox Jew. As such, I lived a very rule-based life. The do/don’t lists of a Jew’s life (especially a Hasidic one,) is dominated by those rules. So much so that it is very difficult to have a true, interactive relationship with God.

    I have learned to absolutely love the minute-by-minute connection with the Holy Spirit that is part of the “normal” Christian life. “Walking in the Spirit” has one additional benefit: you cannot sin WHILE YOU ARE WALKING IN THE SPIRIT!

    In order to sin you must consciously choose to leave “walking in the spirit” and walk in the flesh.

    Permit me to connect this to your topic, the slippery slope, by saying that while there are obviously some right and wrong “lists” to be found in the Scriptures, one does not need to get the fine points from His Word. Instead, the fine points should come directly from Him via the Holy Spirit as they are needed.

    My mentor gives this example:

    “Is reading the Bible always a good thing? Is watching football on the Sabbath a bad thing?” Neither of these have an absolute answer.

    Imagine it is a beautiful Saturday afternoon and you are reading the Bible down by the river. You hear a child scream for help as he is drowning in the river. If you choose to continue reading your Bible instead of saving the child, it is likely that God will be displeased with you. Thus, reading the Bible COULD be a bad thing at a given point in time.

    As for football on a Sunday, that would depend upon whether of not the Holy Spirit has asked you to do something else.

    So, while it is safe to assume that adultery, stealing, lying, etc. are sins, the fine points are best left up to God on an individual basis. If we are truly concentrating on God’s will on a minute-to-minute basis, we will have no problem with the slippery slope.

    Blessing to all,
    DS

  34. Judilyn1957 says:

    It was EXACTLY this line of reasoning that led our beloved daughter away from Christianity. She studied directly from scripture about these issues, and learned why it’s so destructive to flirt with the dangers of sin and unbelief. But she loves to flirt, and was utterly confident that she could deal with ‘sticking her toe over the edge’ of the slope.

    When God says “No,” or “Do not,” He doesn’t mean “Oh, maybe a little, until you can’t handle it anymore.” When He says “Don’t go there,” He means just that.

    Our daughter “went there,” and is now reaping the consequences: alcohol issues, sexually transmitted disease, stunted emotional growth, and most heartbreaking of all, when friends convinced her that Genesis is ‘just a story,’ she no longer holds to ANY part of the Bible (but still maintains that she can pick apart anyone’s sermon).

    As a side note, her appearance deteriorated in direct relation to her spiritual deterioration. She used to say, “If people take care with their appearance when they go out together or to a special occasion, then even more should they take care when they’re gathering together for worship of God. It’s an outward sign of what’s in their hearts, that meeting with God is something special and important.” Now that she’s covered with tattoos, she says, “It doesn’t matter what I look like on the outside. I don’t care what anyone thinks of me, and I’m sure that if there’s a God, He’s okay with whatever I want to do.”

    So, in my book, this article is just one more paver on that slippery slope. How sad.

  35. poohpity says:

    The Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart. —1 Samuel 16:7

    I believe the greatest slippery slope is when we put ourselves in the position of the Holy Spirit to convict another of their sin. That is not our job. We are however to hold each other accountable that to me means to help restore someone back to the saving grace of our Lord Jesus. We must remember who we are not compared to each other but to Christ. As it was said in ODB today, “But if God were into being “fair,” we would all be consumed by His judgment! We can be thankful for this: “[God] has not dealt with us according to our sins” (Ps. 103:10).

    If we are arguing over bible doctrine or translation we have certainly missed the whole point of the scripture and the mercy we have been shown. Those are times that one exhibits control, pride and intimidation. That would be a very good time to go back to the basics of our faith and lay face down at the foot of the Cross.

    I think we were given a job to do and that was to tell people that God loves them and wants a personal relationship with them by the forgiveness of our sin by His death on the Cross. We are also told to help those who have needs emotional, physical as well as spiritual but we are so busy pointing at sin in someone else and holding them to such a high standard that we forget what our job really is. God is the Judge and His judgment is fair and just, ours is not. Jesus did not even come to condemn but to show mercy and grace to us undeserving people so how much more should we show to others.

    If we have put our self into the position of the Holy Spirit then we have already slipped off the slope and can no longer identify the need for a safety rail our self.

    As far as identifying my self with past sins that is not who I am now “I am a child of God” who has been forgiven and living under grace.

  36. maxine gilliam says:

    oh, the joys of those who do not follow evil men’s advice (slippery slope); who do not hang around with sinners, scoffing at the things of God (slippery slope); but they delight themselves in doing everything God wants them to do.(a way out) and day and night are always meditating on His laws and thinking about ways to follow Him more closely (standing on a firm foundation). They are like trees along a river bank bearing luscious fruit each season without fail. Their leaves shall never wither, and all they do shall prosper.(reciprocity). Psalm 1:1-3 (parenthesis my own words).

  37. Mart De Haan says:

    For the sake of understanding one another it might be helpful to notice the number of different ways we are using the idea of “slippery slope”. Just as important are the different word pictures that are probably coming to mind as we use the phrase.

  38. poohpity says:

    So is the slippery slope about assumptions and preconceived notions on doctrinal matters? I think I have lost the focus of the topic. I need guidance to refocus on the issue at hand. Help, Mart.

  39. mj says:

    I appreciate DS’s connecting this whole topic to the necessity of “walking in the Spirit.” His reference caused me to look up the scripture in Galatians 5 in which Paul admonishes us to “walk in the Spirit”.
    I found there a commentary note: The design of the Holy Spirit, as He develops in us fruit characteristic of “the divine nature”, is to constrain us toward a life in which the tendencies of the flesh are both undesirable and unproductive…The Holy Spirit both monitors and empowers, enabling practical godliness… Some sins are avoided because of divine [scriptural] prohibitions and others by divine (Holy Spirit) inhibitions, when the indwelling Spirit brings the Word or personal warnings to mind. Growth in Christ increases resistance to all that is uncharacteristic of Him. We become more internally motivated as our hearts learn to inhibit disobedience, instead of relying on our minds to memorize rules and wrestle to obey.
    (from the NKJV/Spirit-Filled Life Bible)
    Other verses that came to mind on the subject were references Jesus made to the Holy Spirit being our teacher(John 14), abiding in Him[Jesus](John 15), and especially the one that says, “without me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5)
    I’ve been a Christian for a long time and I still fail everyday. (Nuts! I thought it would get easier.) But I am learning to hear the Holy Spirit more clearly and to know God better. I see my surest growth, and wrestle less with slippery slopes, when I meditate on scripture, ask for the Holy Spirit’s indwelling, and stay connected to other seeking, mature believers.

  40. Mart De Haan says:

    I wasn’t taking issue with your comment, Deborah. But, yes, as you suggest, I’m trying to describe the way the “slippery slope argument” is used to support questionable assumptions and preconceived ideas. My real concern is the way such warnings are used to scare and even “bully” people into compliance– as if there are not more certain truths that we can hang on to… to avoid sliding to the bottom of the hill.

  41. sbrewster says:

    One of my favorite books/story aside from the Bible is John Bunyan’s “Pilgrim’s Progress From This World To That Which Is To Come”. It’s a story that I came across more than 20yrs ago during my early Christian years. Aside from scripture, it is probably one of the few works that have been embedded in my heart and mind. It is an allegory and the main character’s name is Christian. It is one of the finest piece of work ever written. If you haven’t read it, it is more than worth the read.

    In the story, Christian is set about on a journey from his home in the City of Destruction to the Celestial City. What propels Christian on his journey is this terrible burden that weighs him down…his journey is very difficult, but he is propelled by his need to rid himself of this terrible burden. Along the journey, Christian gets buffeted and diverted about – sometimes he thinks he’s going in the right direction when he is not. Along the road he walks are pits and ditches – some into which he falls. At times he makes the trek alone, but almost invariably he meets up with a cast of characters along the way. Some are there to deter him from reaching the Celestial City, yet others are there to help him get back on track and stay the course.
    Throughout his journey, Christian finds himself in epic struggles and dangerous conditions, those that cause less committed souls to stray or turn back altogether. Christian encounters more than a fair share of “slippery slopes”, but with each one he remembers that he is supplied/armed with “handrails” (God’s Word) that with each obstacle helps him to find a way out.

    Judilyn, although you daughter seems to have been drawn far away, she’s not too far where God can’t reach her. You both will be in my prayers.

    Phpatato: It has been hard for me too. My personality tends towards “black and white”, but what I have learned and am learning to do is not sit in judgment as Poohpity says, because I now realize that I am not capable of judging as God would. I cannot see or know everything and unless God helps me to discern, I don’t know what lies in the heart of another. Even though I believe discernment is one of my spiritual gifts, I have become slower to be critical and to judge. My own life experiences have humbled me in this way. I try to live with my heart open to God. In that way, I very much appreciated DaveSchwReno’s post. I don’t ever want to be so legalistic that I find myself missing the point as the Pharisees and Sadducees did. They were so well taught (so they thought) and so focused (black and white) on the letter of the law that they missed what they had been waiting for and actually became the enemies of the one they were taught would come. Yet, they could not receive it, because they did not expect Him to come in the way that he did. We must be ready to go higher with our understanding when he calls us to. The Pharisees and Sadducees were not able to go higher – they were holding so strongly to what they believed the letters taught that they even accused Jesus of being of Satan. We have to be cautious and allow God to be God and not put him in a box.

  42. sbrewster says:

    Mart, I echo Poohpity. Please help! I want to understand the point you were trying to make.

  43. Ben-Thomas says:

    Hi, I am so new here but felt I just hasd to log in.
    I may be way off, but when speaking of “slippery slopes” are we completely forgetting the fact that it is a slope! Slopes go down, no matter how many guardrails there are. And even most often on slopes, there are guard rails to keep us from going down.
    I cannot help but look at many of the declining areas of our churches and attribute them back to once, so called micro “slippery slopes” which have now developed into full blown schisms in denominations and churches all over the world.

  44. pegramsdell says:

    Haven’t got a clue, but Regina and Deb, appreciate your posts. Right on! Preach it sisters! Peg :)

  45. foreverblessed says:

    Have been busy in the physical world, not being able to post here in the digital world.

    The essential thing is that Christ is our Savior, Who is he that overcomes the world, Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God 1 John 5:5

    but all the other topics that Mart mentioned have nothing to do with that.
    If women are allowed to lead in a church, then Jesus is no less our Saviour.
    If Genesis is not meant literally, that does not make Jesus any less our Saviour.
    It may only mean that we have misinterpreted Genesis 1 in the first place.
    If one day rest in the week is not meant literally, but spiritual (that we rest from our own works and live in faith in Christ Jesus), that indeed also does not diminish Jesus as our Saviour. No not at all, it even makes the point more clear that we are to live our lifes in faith in Christ, through the Holy Spirit, as DaveSchwReno described.

    those who deny that Jesus is Lord, they are on a slippery slope.
    But we do not deny that we believe that and live in Him.

  46. bubbles says:

    If this is off topic, please forgive. This is just an honest observation and question that I’m almost embarrassed to ask.

    Does anyone else feel that certain standards of the church/Christians’lives have been comprimised in the past 20 years or so? What once just “didn’t happen” is now the “norm” in Christian circles and people view things as acceptable?

    I would really like to change where I go to church. However, the one I’d really like to attend has changed and become liberal in certain areas–and have even changed its name to reflect they ARE more liberal. When I visited, I did not even feel like I’d been to church. Even a funeral there attended shocked me. The time spent there made my mind continue to question, “Is what is happening here okay? Does this please the Lord?” Does a small deviation from certain standards start a slippery slope much like a frog being cooked? It seems when some things are comprmised, other areas change also.

    I would never dare say anthing to the people who attend there. I know many of them and love them. They are not being judged. It’s just my mind questioning what is happening. Is it being a prude to be surprised by a relaxing of standards?

    The standards don’t save us or make us any more sanctified or more spiritually mature or more right.

    Please know I’m not judging anyone. Just wondering
    where does discernment come in? Where should the line be drawn?

    Maybe I’m the one who is really in the wrong here.

  47. poohpity says:

    Thank you Mart for the clarification. Does confusion come more frequently with age? :-)

    Bubbles, I think the analogy of cooking a frog is perfect for the churches today. The world and fame have crept in so that the truth gets so lost. Numbers seem more important than the teaching and worship of God yet it is done in such a soft way you have to really be on your toes to notice. A soft slide down the slope, inch by inch until God gets lost in the crowd between fame and fortune. Christianity is on the top forty of money makers in the USA today. Talk about a slippery slope.

  48. Mart De Haan says:

    Bubbles, I don’t think it’s possible to answer your question (except by personal inclination) unless we know whether what we are talking about are matters that affect our ability to reflect the attitudes of Christ and to trust and delight in his/our Father.

    Among some of what really matters is whether we remain overwhelmingly grateful to our Savior, love one another as he has loved us, care for our neighbors, trust our God, and hope (with confident expectation) in his promiseto bring us into his eternal House/Home.

  49. rxman says:

    I used to have a Sunday School teacher who said that there are 6 or 7 “have to be’s” in the Bible, i.e., virgin birth, crucifixion, resurection. Everything thing else he was open to discuss. I’ve carried that with me ever since. Very wise words, I think.

  50. phpatato says:

    Bubbles

    Thank you!! You expressed so much better in your post what I am feeling and had failed in my attempt to say…. I am so afraid of letting down my guard that I will be swayed by this new age thinking. It isn’t the matter of me judging people – because that IS God’s job – it’s that I question whether the mindset behind the push for being tolerant is Bible-based and whether or not it is pleasing to God. This old world is in sad shape..no one can deny that, and it’s going to get worse because satan is becoming desperate at the sight of the hand on the clock almost at midnight. More now than ever, we should be on our guard, not relaxing what we think is right just so that we won’t be accused of not being tolerant. So often I hear people (Christian and non-Christian) laying a guilt trip on the so called black and white thinking Christians for not being Christ-like and loving just because they won’t be swayed into this new age way of thinking. Are they right or is that one way of being bullied onto a slippery slope?

    Foreverblessed and DaveSchwReno – I really enjoyed reading what you have posted!!

    Pat

  51. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    I’m usually asleep at this time, but this morning I’m up. …thinking about slippery slopes and handrails. I definitely want to be a “handrail” for Jesus. I want to share the knowledge and wisdom that He’s given me to help whomever He leads me to help.

    Like sbrewster said, if I discover that a brother/ sister in Christ (or anyone) is on slippery slope, I have to attempt to bring them back to the truth. …not with condemnation, with love. Brings to mind a Bible verse: “Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth” (Gal. 4:16, NIV)?

    Went to Bible study tonight, and my Pastor (one of the Pastors at my church) preached the 5th part of a series titled, “The Life of a Worshipper.” Tonight’s lesson was titled, “The Worshipper’s Sacrifice.” Want to share five key points that my Pastor shared with the congregation:

    1. Our “sacrifice” of praise to God legitimizes the sincerity of our worship.

    2. Real worship will provoke us to walk away from things that we thought we couldn’t live without.

    3. Even the slightest disobedience to God makes our praise and worship void. “Obedience” is better than sacrifice (1 Samuel 15:22).

    4. Real “worship” is giving God something that’s attached to our heart. …referenced Abraham’s willingness to offer up his son Isaac–heir of the promise of God–on the altar as a “sacrificial” act of worship.

    5. God is after everything in our lives that we don’t think we can live without because He meets us at the point of our sacrifice (or sacrificial offering to Him).

    I love the number five; in biblical numerology it means “grace.” God has definitely graced my life with His presence, love and friendship.

    Want to share the first verse of an all-time favorite song with you:

    Grace By Which I Stand (by Steve Green)

    Lord, the feelings are not the same
    I guess I’m older
    I guess I’ve changed
    And how I wished it had been explained
    That as you’re growing
    You Must remember
    That nothin’ lasts except the grace of God
    By which I stand in Jesus
    I know that I would surely fall away
    Except for “grace” by which I’m saved…

    Blessings,

  52. tallmark says:

    Re: Loretta Beavis says:
    June 8, 2010 at 9:32 am Your song question –
    I’m betting the song you were thinking of is Mighty to Save. Lots of versions out there. “Everyone needs compassion, a love that’s never failing, let mercy fall on me..” Happy to know he picks up those who fall on the slippery slopes of life.

  53. chfranke says:

    Bubbles, you didn’t mention anything about your current church and why you want to change. Is it dysfunctional in some way? That may help us see better what you are dealing with.
    On the church you want to join, God maybe calling you to speak to boldly speak to your friends your desire to attend their church but you cannot because of the churches stand on several critical issues. If they are Christians, they will still love you.
    In both cases, churches do go through cycles so what’s hot this year may cool down in later years as God has a new mission for them. You just never know what you may express may make a difference.
    Chuck

  54. Mart De Haan says:

    All, so many good thoughts here. But I think I’m still not making myself clear. I’m affirming with you that there are many slippery and dangerous places.

    Jeremiah speaks in behalf of the LORD saying of those who have no heart for God, “Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.” (Jeremiah 23:12). All sin is a slippery place.

    What I’m trying to do is warn against something that I think, in principle, the Apostle Paul is warning about in Romans 14. There he speaks of matters on which followers of Christ disagree– by their own understanding of caution and faith.

    The fact that these believers are having conflict over matters of “liberty” and “disagreement” shows that at least one side of each argument is rooted in an opinion that a brother or sister is being “unfaithful” and therefore in a dangerous place.

    Yet, in such questionable matters, Paul urges these believers to respect one another’s faith and to realize our individual accountability to the Lord.

    In my terms, Paul gives his readers a number of unarguable issues to think about and to use as “hand rails” while disagreeing with one another– and then says, ” For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serves Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

  55. SFDBWV says:

    APOSTASY…An abandoning of what one has believed in…

    The Christian church of today is a far cry of the church of a hundred years ago, even of fifty years ago.

    If we stand on biblical truths of right and wrong are we now called bullies…who would try to scare people into submission.

    Christ cried for the coming condition of Jerusalem, the Apostles all warned of what happens when we disobey.

    Who among us is not passionate enough to warn another of their wrong doing, because we fear for their fate.

    All of the Prophets came to warn and announce, God’s intentions.

    Are we not now given the gift of prophesy amongst our christian ranks, is it not our responsibility to point people in the right direction?

    How does that make us bullies?

    Is God a bully?

    He tells us what He wants from us, and what will happen if we do not obey.

    Can a man take fire to his breast and not be burned?

    If you play with sin you will be burned, it is mine and every Christian’s responsibility to warn another if they are getting too close to that slippery slope that leads to destruction.

    You are very right Bubbles, the church we see around us is in a state of apostacy, as we are approaching the end of the age, and the coming of the anti-christ.

    Yes Mart, I agree it is all about the delivery of a warning that may make it sound as if we are being bullied or scared…..but we should do whatever it takes to get the attention of one who is in danger of falling….Just as God does.

    Steve

  56. Mart De Haan says:

    Steve, the truths of orthodoxy are the handrails of our faith. I agree with you if you are talking about the foundational issues of orthodoxy. But if you are not, then I think we need to talk about how Paul handles this in Romans 14.

  57. Mart De Haan says:

    I’m also concerned that some of us are misunderstanding our friend Bob. He clearly admits that indulging a fallen inclination or desire is sin, and together with the rest of us is facing that challenge with faith and hope in Christ.

    The issue at hand is whether we should identify ourselves by the sin that is our “besetting sin”. In such a consideration the issue needs to a positive one rather than negative and judgmental.

  58. AmazedbyHis grace says:

    We’re left with plenty of examples of God’s love and wrath. The bottom line is this: Those who are true children of God can no longer live in the mud and mire of sin at the bottom of the slippery slope. Repentance from sin and living a holy life is difficult enough! Why argue when we are supposed to be marching forward? His word is left for us to show His actions if we choose to live in what He deemed as sin. Sodom and Gomorrah and simple disobedience such as Lot’s wife, Jonah, etc. (In your walk, have you ever felt like Jonah when you’re just not “getting it?”) It’s been pretty obvious that if we slide down that slope, we’d better repent. Certainly Jesus died for our sins, but He didn’t die so that we could continue to live at the bottom of that slippery slope. Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
    PS If God spoke to Moses through a burning bush, He can speak to us through different translations.

  59. sbrewster says:

    Mart, thank you for the reference to Romans 14. It is worth reading and studying again to really get to the heart of what Paul is trying to instruct the church on. It is obvious in this case that foundational principles of the faith are not at play, but rather those more nebulous issues around which some in the body have chosen to divide themselves over. We see this often in the church – hence from which multiple denominations have arisen. Some believe that women should cover their heads and wear long non-revealing clothes and to the rest they say that you are “not enlightened” and in some case they will not allow you to worship with them because they believe your appearance is not in keeping what they believe is a fundamental principle of the doctrine – when in truth it is not. I have visited churches such as this and I have felt the eyes of the stinging judgment of rebuke, when in fact I came in love to worship with fellow believers. Because of my experiences, I have made it a point to not quibble over such matters. If you wear your hair long or prefer a pixie cut or even wrap your head in a scarf, if you prefer skirts to the ankle or knee length, if you prefer contemporary rather than traditional christian music, if you decide to not eat shellfish because it is not in accord with the kosher laws laid down in the OT – these are not things that should divide us. We should not sit in judgment of each other over such things and yet many of these things have directly caused strife and tension in the body of Christ. Many years ago, to play anything other than traditional hymns in church was thought to be heretical. If you danced in certain way (and yes their is caution to be exercised here for I have seen some dances that are indecent and really puts one in a position to yielding to fleshly desires) or drank a glass of red wine, certain Bible verses would be used to put you in submission to the church. Some churches even believed that if you married someone of a different race, that you were sinning and they used all kinds of Bible verses to condemn and discourage it. That is indeed “bullying” for the sake of controlling pushing conformity.

  60. sbrewster says:

    Romans 14 from the NIV:
    1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

    5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

    9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
    ” ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
    ‘every knee will bow before me;
    every tongue will confess to God.’ “[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

    13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

    19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

    22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

  61. AmazedbyHis grace says:

    Bubbles, I finally found a church that is truly bible based. They do not believe in membership to the denomination, only to the body of Christ. In my own observations of many denominations, I believe there is a veil over those churches who are not following God’s expectations. Could a worldly denominational membership requirement be one of the reasons why they are blinded and their followers are not being fed? Where in the bible does it state we are to be members of a worldly denomination? What great blessings we could have if we only worshipped God, our risen Savior, in unity! What state to you live in?

  62. Mart De Haan says:

    Up or down is a matter of perspective. What was it when Jesus sat at table eating and drinking with sinners? My understanding is that his commitment to love and truth made that a step up. To the religious leaders who hated and feared him– it was a step down.

  63. sbrewster says:

    Mart, yes I get it!!!! It truly is a matter of perspective. I also thought of that exact account in the Bible. Also, when he stayed in Zacharias’ house. Yes, he was accused as a cohort of sinners. Well, he was a companion to the lost for he came to seek and to save that which was lost.

    They hated and feared him, because they worshipped their own excessive self-esteems and exaggerated dignity and love of their position over others.

  64. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, As I see it, the conditions of orthodoxy are not our handrails, but are part of the foundation beneath our feet.

    We base ourselves upon the foundation of Christ, and are adopted into the rules of living He Himself taught others to live by.

    The handrails or fences that keep us from falling are the stuff of faith that is born from our choosing to believe the warnings of what will happen if we cross that line. The handrail is our act of obediance.

    In order to climb over thoes protective boarders we have to take our eyes off of Christ and focus on what is on the other side of the fence.

    We then remove our feet from that solid foundation and are on slippery ground.

    Paul goes into great detail in telling believers what we as Christians should and should not be doing, in every detail of our lives.

    Even to the instruction of *gently* pointing another in the right direction should they stray.

    What I read in Romans 14 is Paul’s plea for us not to *judge* another for their observance of festivals and eating habits from the old Mosaic Law.

    That we are freed from such laws and we should no longer *judge* others for their observance or non observance of these items of the law.

    The key here is whether or not, our reaction to a diffference of opinion becomes a judgement in our perspectives.

    Steve

  65. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    Woke up this morning to a beautiful, cloudy day (Psalm 118:24). I, too, have enjoyed reading all of the comments in this blog.

    Still thinking about slippery slopes & hand rails. Mart – I hope I’m understanding the point that you want us to understand in this blog topic. You said someting in your last comment that helped me to understand better.

    Want to share how I understood Bob (Cornwall’s) comment, and I honestly mean no disrespect to Bob (Mart, you touched on my thought in the 2nd part of your last comment when you said, “The issue at hand is whether we should identify ourselves by the sin that is our “besetting sin”).

    When Bob said that he is “a gay man” he identified himself as a homosexual, a sin that the Bible specifically mentions in Romans 1. If Bob was sharing his “besetting sin” with us, he should not identify himself with it–he should identify himself with Christ.

    Don’t want to be misunderstood. I understand that ALL sin seperates us from God. …understand that we all have to crucify our “besetting sin/carnal desires” on a daily basis.

    So, Mart, to answer your question, I don’t believe that we should identify ourselves by the sin that is our “besetting sin.” Identifying with it gives the devil even greater access in his attempt to destroy us with it.

    I believe that we should confide in a trustworthy brother/sister (or brothers/sisters) about our “besetting sin” so that we can have someone to hold us accountable for our actions and to pray for us on a daily basis.

    Steve – Your comment, at 6:32 am, was well said.

    Hope I didn’t repeat something that’s already been said. Haven’t read the comments after Mart’s last comment yet.

    Off blog topic: Want to share the scripture reference that my Pastor used last night (from the sermon, The Worshipper’s Sacrifice):

    Hebrews 13:14-15, NLT (special emphasis on v. 15)
    14) For this world is not our permanent home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come. 15) Therefore, let us offer through Jesus a continual sacrifice of praise to God, proclaiming our allegiance to his name.

    Blessings,

  66. Mart De Haan says:

    Steve, thanks for hanging in the discussion with me. I think this is very important, and that if we keep talking we will eventually see where we are talking past one another.

    So far I have not heard any one arguing for a sin that the Bible clearly warns us about.

    I should probably qualify that. I mentioned the issue of women in leadership. I mentioned this because of my attempt to understand the whole counsel of God, the culture to which Paul was writing, the principles of wisdom he applied, and the way Jesus, Paul, and Peter define servant leadership etc.

    Because scholars who have a high view of the Scriptures are on both sides of this issue, I do not consider it a timeless, clear warning against sin– but rather very similar to what was happening when the church argued that both Old and New Testaments supported slavery, and used timeless principles to support a slave-based economy.

    But my point here is that our discussion keeps sliding into issues that are not departures from foundational biblical doctrine.

    I also agree with you that a stronger word picture for orthodox doctrine is that of “foundations” rather than “hand rails”. The diagram we choose depends on the point we are trying to make.

  67. phpatato says:

    I sense that I have been misunderstood.

    It was not my intent to “judge” Bob or to focus in on homosexuality in particular. I was thinking of alot of different “new age” thinkings and how I am questioning whether I am too much a black and white thinker, and that if I relax my way of looking at things, will I be on a slippery slope.

    I am having trouble with being asked to be tolerant and to relax my views when I have a Christian friend who smokes a joint everytime he wants to unwind or feels a body ache or pain. Or another who thinks it’s ok to drink alcohol..in moderation of course. Or to have a niece who started with just a small tattoo on her ankle to now having several dotting different parts of her body…to be called intolerant by all of them because I am in belief that these may not be pleasing to God. I am not judging them because they do these things! I am only really scared for them because I love them so dearly.

    I am still confused and will be grappling with this in prayer today again.

  68. Mart De Haan says:

    Thanks, phpatato, I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

  69. SFDBWV says:

    Yes Mart we are on the same track, And I will hang in there with you on this topic.

    I have much to do today as I am certain you do as well.

    I have certainly enjoyed the many new people and the comments that others have brought to the table.

    I will return, to discuss and consider as we search out the truth and glean all we can from your thoughts.

    Thank you Mart for all you do and your patience with me.

    Steve

  70. Mo Bo says:

    You are exactly correct, Judilyn, as your sad personal testimony exemplifies. It was Charles Templeton’s unbelief in Genesis that ultimately led him to his final work, “Farewell to God.” Templeton was a contemporary of Billy Graham and it was his belief in evolution because of what he thought to be “demonstrably true,” that led him down the “slippery slope,” never to regain his balance. We would do well to stick to the Word. Evolution (molecules to man or goo to you) is definitely not “demonstrably true,” and is becoming even less so as new discoveries are made. We can only pray that your daughter will return to her faith beginning with Genesis, Judilyn. There is still hope.

  71. Mart De Haan says:

    Mo Bo, this historical example is one of those alarming ones that should be sobering for all of us. But I also I believe this is also a good example of the kind of “slippery slope argument” that is– unintentionally of course– unhelpful and misleading.

    While I don’t want to get into the debate on 7/24 hour days (I think the biblical text allows either position) All that follows in the Biblical account provides countless foundations/handrails to keep us from falling into naturalistic evolution. It simply is not true that those who give an inch on 7/24 hour days necessarily end up being vulnerable to a godless process of origins.

  72. poohpity says:

    I think the principles of scripture (hand rails, level places and safety places) for instance, Romans 3:23″for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life”. 1 Tim 2:3-43 This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. 1 Cor 13:1-3 “1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing”. These are just some of the foundations or Principles of our faith which are the “Safety Rails” or “Level ground”.

    The slippery slopes are the things that cause much division between believers which are doctrinal problems like women issues, food issues, clothing issues, tattoo’s, piercing or anything that would drive a wedge between having someone come to God because of our human opinions or rules that may have some scripture references but they are not built on the bottom lines for example “all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God”. Things that cause division in our family of God like anger or pride or contempt or self righteousness those are the slippery slopes than can possibly lead others away from the truth.

  73. SFDBWV says:

    Many years ago I owned 22 acres of land accross the river on the Maryland side. It has a little creek that runs through it and a county road the split through it as well, the road crossing the creek.

    Some neighbors called me one morning and said that someone had pulled up to the bridge and threw several trash bags over into the creek and along side the bridge.

    I went over and gathered up the trash and went throught it and came up with a name and address.

    I called the Maryland authorities and wanted to prosecute the offenders….but was told I could not because I did not see them dump their trash there, and so could not prove that the people whoes name was in the trash actualy threw it there.

    So, I went to the address on the envelope and was ready to do what ever it took to set this matter straight.

    I knocked on the door, ready to do battle with who ever came to the door…or so I thought.

    When the door opened, there stood a little old man that looked like he was a hundred and three, glasses so thick I could hardly see his eyes and he only stood maybe 5 feet tall. I am 6 foot 2 inches

    I ask if he was the name I had seen on the envelope, he said he was, I then ask him if he threw the trash bags onto my property, he said he did….When I ask him why he would do such a thing, he simply said there wasn’t any sign that said he couldn’t….

    I only tell this little life story to demonstrate how simple it is to have a person who is slipping into dark territory go pell mell into disaster only because no one said they shouldn’t.

    In trying to see how there are two sides to this issue, I come up with the idea that either we just say it’s between them and God, none of my business…or for their eternal souls we speak up and warn them of their wrong doing.

    John the Baptist lost his head over just such a matter. He said if he didn’t warn Herod that herod’s blood would be on his hands for not warning him of his slipping into the slippery slide we are discussing.

    Either we care enough to speak up or we take an indifferent attitude. I am certain Jesus taught us to be anything but indifferent concerning the eternal welfare of our brothers and sisters.

    Steve

  74. poohpity says:

    Steve, nobody is saying that holding our brothers and sister accountable or calling a sin a sin is wrong. It is things like saying the only appropriate translation is the KJV without a doubt and you are in the wrong if you read any other type. That is just an “example” of the slippery slope Mart was referring to.

  75. SFDBWV says:

    What is it we as Christians have based our faith and beliefs on? In Matthew 7:24 Jesus says unless we build our house on rock we are as foolish men who build it on sand. Our rock being the person of Jesus Christ and thoes who not only hears the things Christ has taught but also does them.

    That when rain and wind and floods came, thoes of us who built(based) our house (faith) on rock(Christ)our house would stand, but thoes whoes houses(faith) is built on anything else, that house (faith) would fall.

    Jesus said that the whole scripture is about Him. From Genesis to Revelation, and all in between.

    When we look we will find Christ on every page.

    But what happens when we base our faith on other things?

    Evolution versus creation…..personaly I am a 7/24 creationist, but my faith is not based only on this.

    I believe in life after death, but my faith is not based only on this.

    I believe in every story and every miracle I have read about from scripture, but my faith is not based only on this.

    My faith is based on the life death and resurection of Jesus Christ. He is my rock, wind, rain nor floods can never move me off of that foundation. The anchor holds….

    Once some years ago I was working for a young fellow who looked up to me as an older man and good worker. One day as we worked together he ask me a sincere and serious question about the Bible and my faith.

    He ask, “how can you believe that *stuff*?”

    My answer was simple….”Because it is true.”

    I know it is true because the author has told me so and has cemented it into my heart. No man can take it from me, it is safe because it is about Him not me.

    Hold on to what God has given you and stand fast to what you believe to be from Him…You have nothing to fear from the firey darts that come at you, the full armor of God will repel any attack from the enemy.

    We have nothing to fear from the Truth, but the enemy does.

    Steve

  76. sbrewster says:

    Steve you wrote: “In trying to see how there are two sides to this issue, I come up with the idea that either we just say it’s between them and God, none of my business…or for their eternal souls we speak up and warn them of their wrong doing.”

    Why can’t it be both? From where I sit, it is a matter of conscience – is it not? But, even though it is, our conscience is not only shaped by natural understanding and but by also being enlightened by others.

    And yes, I think “indifference” is a “slippery slope”.

    We can attempt to enlighten on such matters, but I am struggling once again with Mart’s comments. Certainly, enlightening others is not the same as “control” or “intimidation”.

    Mart wrote “Seems to me that we need to look for those times when “slippery slope” warnings are often more about “control” and “intimidation” than about taking called for risks of real faith, truth, and love…”

    I guess I really don’t understand what is meant by this statement or perhaps it hasn’t been addressed in a way I understand.

    To use the words “control” and “intimidate” in this context seems to speak to having some motive opposite of the freedom that comes with faith, truth and love.

    This has become a much more complex topic than I originally thought.

    In my mind, to “control” and “intimidate” is to exercise some authoritative influence to instill fear/coerce/frighten into submission. Which in my mind means scripture is not being applied as intended and that there is some ungodly agenda or motive at play for God does not dealt with us this way. He reaches out to us in love with truth and he has granted us free will to reject or accept the truth….but he does not attempt to “control” us and neither is it his desire to “intimidate” us.

    Therefore, if scripture is not being used purely for faith, truth and love – if the intent is not purely for faith, truth and love then it is being misapplied and used amiss.

  77. Mart De Haan says:

    Am getting concerned at this point that I might be encouraging an argument about “words”– or the use of an illustration– which is not my intent.

    So let’s change the words and the picture. When intimidating words are used to win an argument; or when danger is exaggerated for effect; or when someone repeatedly calls wolf when there is no wolf… or when someone shouts fire in a crowded auditorium when there is no fire… the false alarms actually create problems where there were none.

    I believe that is what can happen when someone argues, for example, that anyone who departs from the King James version of the Bible; or who doubts that the seven days of creation are seven literal 24 hour days etc. will end up making shipwreck of their souls.

    I don’t want to make light of real danger… but rather want us to think about what happens when we use scare tactics for “lesser” and “questionable” issues that do not call for such warnings… In such cases there are bigger and more important issues of faith than can keep smaller, unintentional errors from being fatal.

  78. pegramsdell says:

    In AA meetings, a person stands up and says his name and then says he is an achololic, and that he has been sober for (however long). But…in the bible, we read that we are new creatures, and that the old has passed away. We have been made new. We are born again, Christians, Filled with The Holy Spirit. A child of The Most High God. Joint heirs with Christ. Holy and Righteous through the shed blood of Jesus. A royal priest. Sin no longer has control over us or dominion over us. I am no longer a drug addict, a liar…or anything else that does not bring glory to God. Because that is what we are supposed to be doing. Bringing glory to Our Father, not ourselves. I am not perfect, but I am striving towards perfection. Being made perfect in His image everyday. That’s why He came and died and was raised.

  79. pegramsdell says:

    Sorry Mart, posted after you. :)

  80. sbrewster says:

    No argument intended – just needed clarification – wasn’t sure if you were trying to get at something that stemmed from more sinister motives.

    Mart wrote: “I don’t want to make light of real danger… but rather want us to think about what happens when we use scare tactics for “lesser” and “questionable” issues that do not call for such warnings…”

    When we do this in the church, it lessens the effectiveness of the body of Christ.

  81. JMB says:

    Mart,

    I can’t help but think that so often we view issues in the “gray area” of the “slippery slope” because mankind has such a capacity to want to provide our own view and opinion of scripture versus just taking it in the “black and white” of what it is. In other words because you or I believe we should live our lives in a way “we think” is right and acceptable, we then often interpret scripture to suit the way we personally live our lives rather than trying to live our lives to comply with scripture. I think of the spiritual condition of our country (the USA) and how far we have fallen as a nation. Christians have been so “bullied” into being afraid to speak the word of God to folks, we have become useless to our cause…that is to spread the word on God. We are so concerned with being “accepted by the world” that we have entered the “slippery slope” of diversity and tolerance. And what I mean by that is, we’ve become so concerned with being on the same page as the world, that we’ve ushered in all kinds of ungodliness in the name of tolerance and diversity. The world has black-mailed us into a corner that we don’t know how to get out of. We seem overly concerned about “offending” people who don’t know God personally, yet the world doesn’t give a rip about offending Christians…in fact it has become a sport for them. (Check out the new Comedy Central spots coming down the pike for example). Many Christians say it is better to “love people into the kingdom with honey than it is to use vinegar” and so accept that feeble analogy as an excuse to be a spineless Christians when confronting the world, again putting themselves on the “slippery slope” of being neither hot nor cold but just luke warm. Jesus said that if you love him, then you can’t love the world too, but that is exactly what Christians have become in this country…needing or seeking so much worldly acceptance and friendship that we’ve abandoned Jesus and the one responsibility He charged us with…to spread his word…not our word or our interpretation of the word or our opinion of what we think the Word should be, but God’s word…the Bible. And if people are offended by it, too bad! Maybe they need a good spiritual slap in the face from the holy spirit to wake them up. That’s between them and God, but not our problem. So let us get off the spiritual “slippery slope” and take a stand for Jesus and quit worrying about preserving our standing in a world that is parishing rapidly. Our only God-given goal is to spread the word and help people get saved. So let’s not become trapped into being “so nice” to the world that they dismiss us, make fun of us, and miss the whole spiritual object lesson of turning their lives to Jesus because we’ve fallen down the slippery slope of worldly acceptance and rendered ourselves useless to God.

  82. sbrewster says:

    Well said, JMB.

  83. phpatato says:

    I believe I have just read the answer to my prayer.

  84. Regina says:

    Good Afternoon All,

    Mart – What did you mean when you said: “So far I have not heard any one arguing for a sin that the Bible clearly warns us about.” Are you going to, at some point, tell us what that sin is? Does anyone already know what that sin is?

    Want to comment on your comment:
    “I should probably qualify that. I mentioned the issue of women in leadership. I mentioned this because of my attempt to understand the whole counsel of God, the culture to which Paul was writing, the principles of wisdom he applied, and the way Jesus, Paul, and Peter define servant leadership etc.”

    When I was younger (teenage years/twenties), I didn’t really pay that much attention to the roles that women had in my church, except for Sunday school teacher (attended a different church then). Now that I’m older, I attend a church where women are FREE to operate in the gifts and callings of the Lord. Women and men serve in the role of Pastor.

    I’ve heard friends say that women in leadership roles wouldn’t be acceptable at their church, but I’ve never understood why it was such a big deal. Jesus had women disciples, and He allowed them to help Him financially and in the work of the ministry (Luke 8:1-3).

    I know that in biblical times women were not allowed to speak in the church (1 Cor. 13:34-35). That’s the culture that Paul and Peter experienced, but I have a whole different perspective on that issue. Never felt inhibited at my church. Don’t believe that women ever felt inhibited when they were with Jesus.

    But my heart hurts for women who are having to endure persecution in their church and from family members who don’t believe that they should have a leadership role in their church.

    Also want to comment on your comment:
    Because scholars who have a high view of the Scriptures are on both sides of this issue, I do not consider it a timeless, clear warning against sin– but rather very similar to what was happening when the church argued that both Old and New Testaments supported slavery, and used timeless principles to support a slave-based economy.

    Someone said that “absolute power (sometimes) corrupts absolutely.” Because the Europeans had total control over the African slaves, there was no way out of their situation. It’s hard to believe that (even in Colonial America) “the church” supported such an evil institution. Was definitely a “slippery slope.”

    Just proves that when the objective is “control, and intimidation”, some people are willing to get their way by any means necessary. I don’t think the church of Colonial America was looking for a “hand rail”, a Word from God, that left no doubt in their minds that slavery was against God’s will.

    Just more of my thoughts on the subject. Hope I didn’t repeat something that’s already been said.

    Blessings,

  85. Ted M. Gossard says:

    Bob in Cornwall,
    Please forgive me if I misread your comment. In the end God is our judge. And to be sure, we all have inclinations that are not right.

    But whether I misunderstood you or not, you can be sure that I don’t look down on you. We’re all in need of Jesus, always.

  86. Ted M. Gossard says:

    inclinations, or I mean temptations, more like. Hopefully through Christ by the Spirit our inclinations are changing, so that we’re more and more inclined to do God’s will. N.T. Wright’s latest book is stellar on the issue of virtue and changing as to inclinations.

  87. DCD says:

    Mart,
    I have been happily musing on your insightful article for the past 24 hours and feel compelled to join the discussion, even if only to validate your premise: that “slippery slope logic” is not entirely consistent with Biblical thinking. As I reflected on my conservative Christian upbringing, I was surprised at how often slippery slope reasoning informed my moral standards. For example, a sip of wine could entice me to try a swig of beer that would inevitably lead to the consumption of strong liquor which would result in incidents of drunkenness, and finally full-blown alcoholism. Therefore, the only sure way to avoid becoming an alcoholic is to be a teetotaler (which I am). Substance abuse studies reveal that heavy drug users began with marijuana and marijuana users had a cigarette habit first. Therefore, one can avoid becoming a crackhead by resisting that first drag on a cigarette. So I don’t smoke. However, what seems to be logical may not be reasonable. How can a young woman prevent an unwanted pregnancy? Don’t let the boy hold her hand. How can a man escape the lure of pornography? By poking his eyes out. Isn’t this what Jesus was advocating in Matthew 5:29? This was probably a hyperbole. But it does highlight the inadequacy of slippery slope logic as our sole moral guide. This is why your guard rail metaphor is so illuminating; it provides the necessary moderating influence. Guard rails like “that still small voice” of the indwelling Spirit, fellow believers who hold me accountable, and the convicting power of the Word have often checked my slide into abysmal attitudes and behaviors. Thank you for bringing these truths to my attention. I am re-assessing my convictions to verify that they are truly biblical and not simply “logical”.

  88. Deb4Him says:

    Greeting in the name of Our Lord Jesus the Christ. I am not one that usually will take time to do blogging unless I feel compelled to do so. This subject of Slippery Slopes has to do with whether we see the Word of God as been true or not… and choosing to obey His word or not. Jesus said, therefore,whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock(KJV- The Ryrie Study Bible). Slippery slopes look for ways to make acceptable what is not according to the word of God. The examples that were given of people in the Bible that did sin(ex.David and Bathsheba,Jonah,Issac or anyone else in the Bible) was not to say that God approved of their actions or that it was alright with God; because they to had to pay for their sins, but He would still use them to accomplish or bring about His will. The Bible is pretty clear on what God calls sin and it’s not negotiable. We can’t start shaving the ice and expect it to be the same as before..in other word, I will overlook something that the Bible specifically calls a sin to be politically correct.We have a standard to judge by and it’s the word of God. In Our Daily Word, I once read that God’s word is for our good, and we are to obey, not to pick the part we like best and live our lives our own way. Therefore, be it a KJV of the Bible or some other published version, God word should be the same. Whether we celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday or Sunday, does not change the fundamental Truth of God’s word. We are to correct in love, but for grace, their go I, but we are to correct a brother or sister we see going astray. Prov.3:12For whom the Lord loveth He correcteth(KJV The Ryrie Study Bible).

  89. saled says:

    The slippery slope argument was used by my former pastor concerning Halloween. He was adamant that the school in our small town would not celebrate Halloween. (public school, his children attended as well as mine.) His argument was that little things like carving pumpkins would lead to satan worship. Those of us who followed his lead ended up looking like idiots.

    When we take a stand, it’s better to take a stand for something, rather than against something. Yes, take a stand for Jesus by practicing love. Conviction is the work of the Holy Spirit.

  90. scout1 says:

    I really liked your post JMB. Thank you.

    Lynda

  91. sbrewster says:

    DCD commented: ““slippery slope logic” is not entirely consistent with Biblical thinking”. Thank you so much for condensing it – I am finally able to put this discussion to rest.

    Saled, great example. Thanks.

  92. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    As a son of the living God, redeemed by the blood and sacrifice of His Son Jesus of Nazareth, Messiah.
    Now is that a better way to state who I am?
    When I made the statement “ As a gay man who likes a pint of beer and a chat with friends in the pub”, I was just trying to emphasise the difficulties I have with so called christian attitude I have with people over reacting and quoting scripture at me.
    I referred to the communion wine as an example of people being more moral about things than Jesus. Non alcoholic wine is used because our church, although not tied to any denomination, was founded by non drinking Methodists who just think a sip of wine is the slippery slope to hell.
    This is the very point Mart is trying to make about using scripture and man made traditions to control peoples behaviour. Sbbrewsters comment of June 10, 2010 at 7:13am sums up the situation perfectly as church people tend to want us all to conform to their image of God and not to the reality of who God really is.

    I agree I maybe should not refer to my self as a gay man, but my sexual feeling are a part of me.
    If I was a woman I would be identified by that fact and would not have to defend my sexual feelings toward men.
    Don’t you think, like Paul, that I have prayed long and hard about this, but God in His wisdom has left me as I am, so I get on with life “as I am” in Him, just as Paul lived with his “thorn in the flesh”.
    My ex Partner went to church with me about six years ago and gave his heart to Jesus. In that very moment the Holy Spirit convicted him and he turned to me and said “I have just got to where I want to be in my life and now I will have to give it up”.
    He was married for nearly 30 years and “came out” as a gay man in the late 90’s His dream was to meet a man and live happily ever after with him. I could not be that person because I only have room for one man in my life, Jesus of Nazareth. When my ex gave his heart to Jesus I thought we could then be true soul mates and be together in a non sexual relationship but, sadly, my ex is still pursuing his dream and is online and chatting to men and now has a new relationship with someone.
    God has told me to pray for his spiritual protection every day. My friend will no longer hear any talk from me about God because my church tried to pray out with laying on of hands etc. the so called spirit of homosexuality that possessed him. As you can imagine this scared him and he ran back to his comfort zone of having a mate.

    We have to be so careful that we do not alienate whole sections of our society by trying to make them conform to our moral standards. Jesus just said “Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more”
    The rest is up to the individual to work out.

    Thanks Mart for being so active in this topic, it is so good to get “live” feedback from you. Much appreciated.

    Love you all.

    Bob

  93. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    My two days off again, Friday & Saturday, and I hope to relax a bit. It has been good this morning to have the time to read and digest the comments on this blog.
    This has been a most interesting discussion, the best in a long time.
    Jesus said;
    “If I be lifted up I will draw men unto me.”

    If Jesus is at the centre then we all see Him from a different perspective, from where we stand in our own lives and circumstances, that is why we cannot judge others by their outward appearance, Physical or Faith.
    Only God through Jesus sees the true person.

  94. AmazedbyHis grace says:

    I’m talking about this for the first time so that you who are Christians may reach out and walk the extra mile for those who are in need.
    Above the slippery slope: I was severely tested last summer and left alone to deal with this. I longed for children all my life, couldn’t have them, suffered a loss of two after 9 months of deep bonding, later blessed with a wonderful gift of a child. I raised my child to love the Lord. The lure of the world’s acceptance of gay behavior along with the teens fads, caused my child to fall away from the Lords truth. The Lord led me to this discovery and I confronted my child. Dad is a “whatever” guy and not Spirit led. I reassured my love but wouldn’t accept the behavior and say it was okay to be gay. My child longed for me to accept this sin as normal worldly life. I explained that if I did this, I would go against God. In my childs teen mind, because I chose God, only rejection remained. (We’re very close.) I stood on the ground of truth and refused to go along with the world. There was never arguments, but my child knew that I was uncomfortable around the unatural oddness of gay behavior. (I was/am and those that know this temptation of my child, know the my child is not gay. Just doesn’t fit at all.) My child was so deeply snared, a serious attempt of suicide was made. I was crushed beyond words. It was the ultimate test and certainly not fair. As before, I trusted the Lord to bring my child back to the truth and living for Him. He is guiding. Today, thinks maybe He allowed this so that helping others find their way out would happen later in life. Though I knew God’s pressence was in my life (was able to write my best childrens Spirit led bible lessons), there was/is no support from other Christians. For the first time in my life of many, many extreme trials, I didn’t know how to handle all this. Yet Christians today are too busy. That’s how the enemy has slipped in and drug many into the mud and mire at the bottom of the slope. We are held accountable.

  95. lee smith says:

    I was a minister’s wife for over 25 years, I have seen the examples Mart uses in real life. . .from the Kings James used or not used, the honoring of the rich and not the not so rich. . .the singing of the old hymns revised to a new version has been enough to send some “to feel lead to start another church”. . .and so on.

    “I think that all things are worth nothing compared with the greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” Philippians 3:8

    (my goal) is to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings…..the grace of the Lord Jesus be with all! Amen Rev 22:21

  96. SFDBWV says:

    sbrewster, I have been confused about this subject from its outset.

    If the idea is, that, if I tell another they are wrong or on slippery ground, for not believing as I do. I am an offender.

    Then I don’t see how anyone escapes being an offender, if they believe their understanding is correct and anothers wrong, and attempts to lead them in their own personal ideology.

    When led or referenced to Romans 14, Paul says let every man choose for himself…..I personaly believe Paul to be discussing eating and celebration habits not theological discernment.

    The writen record of the nature and rules for living are contained within the Bible. God said thou shalt not kill…..seems clear enough. Yet when we dig deeper there are several different views of murder. Each with its own different punishment. Yet we kill one another in war and do not call it murder.

    We have reasons and quite often good valid reasons for taking the life of another. Yet do we let every man decide for himself if killing or murder is wrong? Would we tell a thief or murderer that they are on slippery ground, and be guility of the offence of pressuring them into thinking as we do? Would that be wrong? Wrong by whoes standard?

    From the beginning, God gave us rules to live by. Being under grace does not give us a free pass to not still live by thoes same rules.

    If we practice living by these rules they become second nature to us.

    If we decide that they are not meant for every age and for every person, are we then beginning to venture out into dangerous thinking by straying from the rules book?

    Making our own rules up as we go?

    Changing the words in the rules book so as to validate our walik away from its original intent.

    If we can’t agree what is right or wrong any longer, as a body of believers, then we are truly lost.

    We need to back up to the beginning and start all over again.

    Steve

  97. daylily2 says:

    Mart, I am very grateful for this post. I am so very thankful that there is someone who better understands
    these matters. I have been troubled by those who seem to take the scriptures and almost beat us down as believers. Whether intended or not, it still hurts.
    I appreciate the fact that God cares so much more for us than to do this. And yet, He is still Holy, He remains the one true God.
    It is very hurtful whenever God and His Word are not rightly represented. I am learning more as I read your writings as to how very much our God loves me. I am in an abusive marriage to a professing believer who daily uses the word to announce God’s disapproval of me and why I am not a ‘fit’ wife to him. It is important to me that I know and understand the Word of God.

  98. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    AmazedbyHis grace,

    I think I got the gist of what you were saying and that you got no support from fellow christians or even your husband in how to react to your sons, I assume “coming out” as a gay person.
    It must have been so difficult when you love someone so much to stand with your beliefs.

    Believe me I know how difficult it is to come to terms with being gay, and the worst fear is to be rejected by family and friends and to be outcast from society. Many teenage suicides are as a result of this struggle to be “normal” and accepted.

    Immoral behaviour like fornication and adultery is a sin whether you are gay or straight and no amount of lecturing will change someone’s sexual desire, only their sexual behaviour.

    Many gay couples who are christian attend “rainbow” churches where they can love and worship God without the constant barracking from their brethren about how they live.
    Many couples, man and woman live together as man and wife, and although this is not morally correct do not get treated with the same furious attitude as gay couples do.

    I choose to live alone and trust God for who I am.

    All you can do is carry on loving your child as you did before because nothing has changed in him and he loved you enough to be open and honest with you about his feelings.

    By all means pray for him, but let God do the work.

    Bob

  99. sbrewster says:

    Bob in England and AmazedbyHisgrace – let me first say how deeply moved I am by your honesty. I understand where you both are coming from. Some years ago, I participated in an inner city street ministry. Somewhere in my christian journey, I realized how vain it was for me to sit in church thanking God for the good fortune of having been saved when there were so many around me in darkness, pain and hurting – so I took to the streets to share Christ. I met many many drug addicts, prostitutes, ex-cons, lesbians and gays…the people who do not feel welcomed in our churches. In order for me to share with them, I had to let them share with me their lives, their struggles, their joys and their sorrows. I was surprised (but probably shouldn’t have been) at how much I came to love each of them….the unlovable. That is when I realized how much God loved me…the unlovable. That is when I realized that there are no degrees to sin. Sin is sin. The drug addict is no worse than someone who struggles with telling “white-lies”. I have prayed with men and women who I believe desired deliverance from their state. I know the challenge of letting go of vices. I understand the alcoholic who although he may not have touched a drop in 20yrs, will always remember that he is an alcoholic – it’s not a past tense for that person because daily he lives in grace to continue to live free from his vice.

    We are to hold to the truth, share the truth in wisdom and love – and let God be the judge.

    John 15:12 “This is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you.”

    1 Peter 4:8 (NIV) Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

    I do not focus on condemning or judging. It is not my place. My place is to walk in love and in truth.

    God works continuously. He works in the places of the heart that we often do not see. My purpose is to pray and hope. He promised us that all who come to him he would in no way cast out. I believe God helps people resolve issues in their life – for some it is a longer process than others….but for all it is a process!!! I am saved and daily I am being saved.

    We are one body, but we have different functions.

  100. foreverblessed says:

    Bob wrote:
    By all means pray for him, but let God do the work.
    And there is so much truth in this.
    The bigger thing we have to do is PRAY.
    Pray for the country that goes astray.
    And the closer our heart is to Jesus, the more power our prayers will have.
    So the main thing in my life is just the same as many here have said,
    like Lee Smith:
    “I think that all things are worth nothing compared with the greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” Philippians 3:8

    (my goal) is to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings…..the grace of the Lord Jesus be with all! Amen Rev 22:21

    But it is very hard, to stay calm and loving and trusting God, when a close person is going a slippery road.
    On the other hand, that is just the testing of our walk with Jesus. Do we still fully trust Him. stay calm in Him. It is a real struggle, and comes with much prayer.
    And I pray for you too Amazedbyhis grace, that you will find the peace and the calmness, so that the love of Christ will flow out of you to tyour son and husband.

    These are the weightier matters of the law: to show love, and compassion.
    And Jesus did that while walking on tis earth, He sat with sinners and ate with them. Was He on a slippery road?
    He ate with them, He did not preach the law to them.

    I think we still are too much adhered to the law, while Christ came to redeem us from the power of darkness to give us a life lived in Him.
    The tree of life

    It is the life in Christ, in the power of His ressurrection that we live. Ephesians 1:18-20

  101. Mart De Haan says:

    daylily2, your’s is a heartbreaking example. Who would dare say that marital faithfulness includes daily insults and verbal abuse?

    Am sure that many other readers of this blog have experienced, as you have, the Word of God used to harm rather than to help.

    Yet over time some of us have also overlooked or tried to minimize or “trump” unfaithfulness to marriage vows with the “slippery slope argument” that legal separation or divorce– even in the face of severe abuse, will eventually result in the ruin of one’s soul.

    Many of us are familiar with the arguments and proof texts used to support such an injustice. But we also can repeat from memory–if we want to– what is promised to the death in marriage vows; we know what Moses, himself, allowed because of the hardness of hearts (Deut 24:1-4); we know that God divorced Ephraim/Israel (Jer 3:8); and that Jesus taught that the law is made for man…rather than man being made for the law (Mark 2:27-28).

    Over time, I’ve become more and more convinced that slippery slope arguments are right when they are used to warn of the dangers of real sin– and so wrong when they are used to support traditional assumptions rather than the balancing hand rails, guard rails, and wisdom of the whole counsel of God.

  102. foreverblessed says:

    Romans 14:5 one man considers one day more sacred than the other, oanother considers all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special does so to the Lord.

    I am one of those who do not consider one day more sacred then the other. I was raised in a bible sure curch, who kept the 7th day, and all the other festivals of Lev 23.

    It sure was a big ordeal for me to find out that these laws were in the bible, but not meant to be kept after Christ had come.
    I was solidly shaken in my faith. Many of my former church left God alltogether, saying if these things were wrongly interpreted than all of it is wrong. That’s too bad for them. I pray for them, that God will be mercifull.
    But I though: but if God is not there then we are all lost.
    I cried to God, and said: I have misunderstood your word, Show me what You mean.

    And this verse:Colossians 2:16-17 these (the keeping of days)are a shadow of things that were to come, the reality however is found in Christ.

    So yes, The Mystery, which is Christ in you Col 1:27
    Does that sound new age?

    Why would we go back and look to the law for our guidance, when we have Christ to lead us.
    He show us love, joy, peace, kindness, patience.
    Againgst such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-13
    The law only show us judgment. Like a lazy husband sitting on the coach, saying all the things that are not going right in the house, but who does not move a finger to help.

    Jesus is just the opposite, He gave His life for me, and now comes and lives in me, gives me strength, peace.
    But I have to go and look for it every morning, and many times during the day.
    If I do not do that, then I am on a slippery road.

  103. AmazedbyHis grace says:

    Aaargh. Too much thought to speak, but Romans 14 is talking about those already living for the Lord or on their way. Gentiles and Jews were going to disagree, especially on food and ceremonial objectives. God’s purpose and way is the answert same stemmed from the 1st commandment. People today want to add in what ever fits their sinful fancy, leaving out what God clearly says no to.
    Let’s do a check up: If we believe God’s holy, truly words are inspired by Him, we begin to grow. Application, true focus and living to please Him reap good crop. Blessings, too. Lot’s of promises there. By the grace of our Lord and Savior, we are on the good side of the dividing line. Here there is unity and no argument. Living right before God should be our first step. Next,the Spiritual handrails are presntly still there to help those up the stairs. If you’re not being truly led by God, the handrails will also be slippery and your efforts are in vain and worthless. This is happening a lot these days.
    God’s allowed those who were on the other side to be killed. He’s allowed many who have loved and honored Him, clearly on His side, to be tested, persecuted, killed. Look what’s happening today and look at the promises that are to follow. I fear for you as you may not be ready for this next battle. If you’re arguing, taking His word out of context, how can you be willing to be led by Him? What side of the line are you on?
    Put God’s word in your daily step; fellowship with like believers; find Spirit led devotions that put God’s word first. It’s only His word that will penetrate. Be careful of those trying to minimize Gods word. Lot’s of that happening these days.
    Daylily2: I came from a very abusive marriage. Words hurt more than the beatings, but God’s word heals. Be led by Him, be the shining light. Memorize God’s holy words. Hold on to His promises. He will rescue you. It may take time, but ask Him what He wants you to learn. Romans 8 is an excellent chapter to study. You are in Christ, on the good side where there is no condemnation.

  104. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    Steve – I understand what you mean. God definitely expects us to share His word with anyone who needs to know the truth (unbelievers; believers). I was taught that His Word is the seed that we sow, and the Holy Spirit (via a Pastor; another Christian, etc.) causes it to grow.

    The Holy Spirit gives us a desire to share God’s Word with someone (people). I believe we should always pray first, and ask God to help us share His Word in a way in which the person/people feel the love of God first and foremost.

    I think we have to remember that when God (the Holy Spirit) puts a desire in our hearts/mind to share His Word with someone, the devil is going to try to prevent the Word from taking root by causing disagreement, arguments, anger, strife, hatred, etc.

    The Bible says that satan is the accuser of the brethren; he accuses us before God day and night (Rev. 12:10). And all who are determined to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution (2 Timothy 3:12).

    So, if we know in our hearts/minds that we’re doing exactly what God wants us to do (and prayer is essential), that’s the safest “hand rail” that we could possibly have.

    Blessings,

  105. Regina says:

    Bob (Cornwall) – Good to hear from you. :-) Your comment (2:40 am) was very insightful and informative. It helped me to understand your struggle (& struggle of others with same temptation/besetting sin) better.

    I read a book awhile back titled, The Thorn in The Flesh by R.T. Kendall. It’s a great book, and I think it would be a great help to you.

    Love in Christ,

  106. sbrewster says:

    Steve – you opening sentence gave me such a chuckle!

    We are all members of the same body, but we have different functions. Some sow seeds, others water and another reaps the harvest. We all work together!

    I really appreciate your point of view and I really appreciate your strength and commitment to the Word. We need your perspective.

    My dad having been raised on a farm was an avid gardener. I use to love to spend time with him. He was a straight shooter like you. I remember a conversation we had one night as he was watering his garden. I was a teenager and like most all teenagers, I didn’t like my parent’s rules on going out/dating/curfews, etc. My dad was particularly strict, but that night I got up the nerve to air my dislike for the “rules”. I complained that I didn’t know why we had to have them at all – that I was old enough and he should trust me (hahahaha). That’s when he asked me a question. He said, “why do you think I stake the tomato plants?” It was obvious to me, but I answered, “because if you don’t, they’ll grow every which way and the fruit will be on the soil and decay.” Then he said, “well you are like a tomato plant and my rules are the stake. They keep you from going every which way.”

    We obviously need God’s rules or we would go every which way – we can see that now. I am clear on those rules and I accept them. I realized that when I came to Christ that I no longer could determine that I knew what was best. I had to accept that God knew what was best just like I had to accept that my parents new what was best. I don’t say I like all the rules – but I do try to live by them for I recognize that they keep me from falling head first into the ditch.

    I came to accept Christ as saviour before my sister. She could see the change in my life and she often gave me opportunities to share the scripture with her, but at some point she said that she began to feel “beat-up” by me as thought I was taking the Bible and pounding/thumping it on her head. I don’t know if it was really conviction by the Holy Spirit or whether I was really going overboard. I didn’t want to push her away from God, but it took me a while to step back and to simply pray for her. I really wanted her to submit to the truth and be saved. But that was not my call. It was God’s.

    Steve, we need to speak what is right! People will be offended by the Word. God tells us that, but he also tells us to proclaim it.

    I think it all boils down to motive. Speaking the truth in love is different from speaking the truth for the purpose of “controlling” or “intimidating” others into submission.

    Blessings From Maryland, Brother. WV is such a beautiful state!

  107. Regina says:

    AmazedbyHisGrace – I love your blogger name. Like Bob (Cornwall’s) testimony, your testimony (6:17 am) brought this scripture to my mind:

    Isaiah 55:8-11, NIV
    8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.

    9) “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    10) As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

    11) so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

    Blessings,

  108. Mart De Haan says:

    Bob, once again, your explanation, courage, and example is so helpful. Thank you!

    Steve, I want to believe that if we could sit on that front porch for awhile and talk we would end up looking at one another and laughing at the way we have been misunderstanding one another.

    I agree with your emphasis on the need for courage to warn one another of real danger/sin. Am at a loss, however, to know how to explain any differently that we are making very different points… (with a smile that I wish could be a shared laugh)…. :-)….

  109. Regina says:

    Awesome comment, (7:31 am) sbrewster! Your testimony reminds me that we should all be striving to hear God say to us, “Well done, good and faithful servant… (Matt. 25:23)!” :-)

    Blessings,

  110. Regina says:

    I understand now!

    Mart – Your comment, “Over time, I’ve become more and more convinced that slippery slope arguments are right when they are used to warn of the dangers of real sin– and so wrong when they are used to support traditional assumptions rather than the balancing hand rails, guard rails, and wisdom of the whole counsel of God.” is the best explanation for when a “slippery slope” argument should used and the “balancing hand rail” of wisdom should be be used (or shared) so that a person can experience the “whole counsel of God!” Praise the Lord! We serve an awesome God! :-)

    Blessings,

  111. mrhsea says:

    Wow, been following “slippery slopes and safety rails” for days now. Wondering if all celebate or unmarried men or women feel they must be called “gay” in our world today, or if “gay” even actually refers to their sexual practice in life or fantasy.

    The Bible truly condemns homosexuality as sin, but never claims that one must marry to be a “christian”. Having a family member who feels outcast by his open “gayness” and praying for him to return to his childhood confession of Christ and confused by your words Bob.

    Is this a “slippery slope”? Indeed isn’t all sin a slippey slope of Satan’s delusion? “Hath God Said”
    Surely my sin isn’t really sin! NOT!!!

    Each of us struggles with our fleshly nature, our “besetting sin” whatever it is, because in “yielding not to temptation” (because of the Spirit of Christ within us- and without Him we are naught) God is glorified. No flesh can glory in His presence. Indeed, God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.

    I Corinthians 7 speaks to the issue of remaining unmarried without this worlds “gayness” of same sexual preference (sin of lust of the heart or self avowed practice).

    When wading into deep currents of sin we need a helping hand to pull us to safety whether we realize it or not. Sadly, many times we are too lost in our sin and liking it so much that we fail to understand or recognize those who love us most, and are calling with hands outstretched. –Being Jesus outstretched hands to others risks rejection by those you love.
    Rather, sin so fetters us that we love and make excuses for ourselves, even blaming those who hold out their hands to us for our own sin. Is this “slippery slope logic” or are helping hands Jesus’ “safety rails” of hope?

  112. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Regina, thank you for those scriptures. Yes there is a higher way that we are all striving for, but sadly we have to deal with the flesh. Dead to self and alive in the resarrected Mesiah. such is life!
    Mart, Thank you for “sticking up for me” this week. I actually have said very little with regard to myself, but, as you know, I find it quit peculiar that I am called an abomination to the Lord by people of “christian” faith when infact they are also an abomination to the lord without the saving grace of God. The church needs to get it’s act together else no one will be saved before the tribulation.

    mrhsea, I have not waded into any deep currents of sin, I am who I am, that is exactly who God called Himself, and I am made in His image!
    Corrupt or not, I cannot be anyone else.
    I have delt with the gay stuff in my life but, if you read between the lines, as Steve from west virginia knows, my biggest problem at the moment is alcohol.

    So please don’t condem me for being gay but pray that God will help me control my drinking.

    Bob

  113. foreverblessed says:

    Bob, I pray for you, it is the resurrected life of Christ in you that gives life.
    Say: Jesus is victorious over alcoholism! Jesus is victorious over death.
    Say it out loud, and often, and believe it, if you do not believe it, ask for more faith.
    Ask for more faith every day, and more love.
    I train myself in the same way, dealing with migraine.
    It has come back lately, and now almost every week. Then I can hardly do anything, and I remember how I fill my days, and Jesus could have a much bigger part.
    Focus myself more on Jesus, it is a training. It is disciplining, it is discipleship. Jesus has overcome the old self in me, He has overcome sin.

    1 Peter 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen.

  114. sbrewster says:

    I am so reminded of the lady caught in adultery and brought into the town square to Jesus. They wanted him to 1. pronounce judgment against her to satisfy their own misguided motives – second, it was also a sneaky underhanded way to try and pressure Jesus to conform with the religious thinking of the day – to make him prove he was one of them. Second, they failed to recognize that God saw no difference between them and the lady caught in adultery – of which Jesus so aptly reminded them.

  115. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Sbrewster, if we would focus on Jesus more, we would be much more compassionate.
    What you wrote, you go out and reach to the lost, what a good example! May God bless you richly!

    And if we go by rules,
    some rules to consider:
    1 Peter 5:1-4
    1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

  116. mrhsea says:

    Bob, I’m not condemning you…merely calling sin, sin… yours and mine. I love my own brother and pray for him daily. I have many Christian friends who love and pray for me, they know me well, I’m glad they give me a hand, as they pray for me and chide me when I go astray, and encourage me in the Lord. As far as “wading into deep currents” read ODB Give Me a Hand from June 8th by David Roper.

    Thank you for sharing. I’m trying to understand better so perhaps I can more effectively reach my own brother. Jesus died to pay the penalty of our sin so that we can be reconciled to God.

    Thanks, mrhsea

  117. AmazedbyHis grace says:

    Dearest Bob,
    What has happened is that you’ve taken ownership of this sin. You are caught in the stronghold. Give it all to God. When tempted, pray the poweful words, “Lead me not into temptation” and mean it. I was tempted with adultry one day and could have easily gone forth. All of a sudden thi Holy Spirit prompted me to pray those words. I was obedient. Before I realized it, the temptation was gone. It was an awesome experience. Remember that no temptation has seized you and God provides a way out. Pray to have the desire to repent. Then sit back and resist the devil and he will flee. My favorite powerful, active promise He left us, “Be still and know that I am God.” Perhaps you too will be one of God’s mighty warriors that will help others find their way to repentance. This walk is truly exciting. Blessings and prayers for you!

  118. sbrewster says:

    As I meditate an old hymn comes to mind

    Lord Give Me A Clean Heart

    Give me a clean heart
    So I may serve Thee
    Lord fix my heart so that I
    May be used by Thee
    For I’m not worthy
    Of all these blessings
    Give me a clean heart and I’ll follow Thee

    I’m not asking for the riches of the land
    I’m not asking for high men to know my name
    Please give me Lord
    A clean heart
    So I may follow Thee
    Give me a clean heart
    A clean heart
    And I will follow Thee

  119. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Yes Mrhsea,
    I read ODB that day and agry we all need a helping, stronger, hand from time to time.
    I am reminded that “Underneath are The Everlasting Arms” to catch us when we fall down the slippery slope.

    One day we will all be together, not like in a room where we can’t get away but in eternity where there is no time and no space to be trapped but we will seek each other out because we have all been through so much and we will want to just be together in Him, Jesus, becaue He gave us so much, everlasting life without sin and without fear and without tears.
    What a price He paid but Jesus Himself knew what Joy lay ahead.

    Another day over and nearer to being in heaven with Him.
    Off to bed now.

    Bob

  120. mrhsea says:

    Sleep well, Bob

    the words that come from my heart to Jesus so often are these…
    “Jesus, you are my strength each day
    Jesus, I really need you
    Jesus, you are my hope and peace
    Jesus, I really need you
    Jesus, you are my righteousness
    Jesus, you are my holiness
    Jesus, you are my everything
    Jesus, I really need you!”

  121. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Bob (Cornwall) – You’re welcome regarding the scriptures. :-) And I want to thank you for sharing your testimony with us.

    Love & Blessings,

  122. Regina says:

    Bob (Cornwall) – I’ll definitely remember you in my prayers. I also want to pray for you now on this blog site, and I hope our brothers and sisters in Christ will join me in praying for you.

    Dear Lord, I come before your throne of grace on behalf of my brother, Bob. He needs your help Lord because he’s struggling with an addiction to alcohol. Precious Holy Spirit, please take ALL of the desire for alcohol away from Bob. I thank you, Lord, for breaking the satanic stronghold of alcoholism off of Bob’s life, and I ask that you would completely remove the taste and craving for it out of his mind and mouth. In Jesus’ name, I pray. Amen.

    Love & Blessings,

  123. scout1 says:

    I will be praying for you as well Bob. Thanks for sharing that prayer with us Regina.

    Lynda

  124. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Thank you Regina and Thank you Jesus!

  125. foreverblessed says:

    Thank you all for standing by Bob.
    He wants to follow Christ, here we can see that knowing the rules does not help, he needs the life of Christ. And he needs it badly, just as all of us need it the same. We need Christ. He is victorious over all sin, over all darkness, over all bondage of sin.

  126. foreverblessed says:

    I am very much concerned about this subject: that many here say we have to live by the rules of the bible. When we live by the law, then we also will talk about the slippery slope.
    You live by the rules of the bible, and when you go to the edges of the rules, you are on a slippery slope.
    While we miss the point of being a christian.

    Bob wrote:
    -Dead to self and alive in the resurrected Mesiah. such is life! –
    This says it all, now we must encourage each other to live by this.

    I want to share with you the following it is from twolisteners God calling May 3

    KILL SELF NOW
    Self dethroned – that is the lesson, but in its place put Love for Me, knowledge of Me.
    Self, not only dethroned, but dead. A dead self is not an imprisoned self.  An imprisoned self is more potent to harm. In all training – (in Mine of you, and in yours of others) – let self die.
    But for each blow to the life of self you must at the same time embrace and hold fast the new Life, Life with Me.
    It is not a dead self that men have to fear, but a thwarted, captive, imprisoned self.  That self is infinitely more self-centered than the self allowed full play.  But to you, My children, I teach a higher science-law than even freedom of the self.  I teach death to the self.  No repressions, just death.  Petty self-life exchanged for Divine Life
    And now I can make more clear to you what I would say about forgiveness of injuries.  
    But what you do not see is that you, the self in you, can never forgive injuries.  The very thought of them means self in the foreground, then the injury, instead of appearing less, appears greater. It is one of My commands that as you seek My forgiveness, so you must forgive.
    No, My children, as all true Love is of God and is God, so all true forgiveness is of God and is God. The self cannot forgive. Kill self.
    Cease trying to forgive those who fretted or wronged you.  It is a mistake to think about it.  Aim at killing the self now – in your daily life, and then, and not until then, you will find there is nothing that even remembers injury, because the only one injured, the self, is dead.
    As long as it recurs to your mind you deceive yourself if you think it forgiven.
    Many deceive themselves in this.

    -Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might
     be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.-  Romans 6:6

  127. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Wow Foreverblessed, I know you are an hour ahead of me in The Netherlands, but that is very deep for this time in the morning.
    I know you have had problems through living under the law in the past and fully understand where you are coming from.

    Yesterday I spoke with my friend Joyce in Winchester about this blog and topic and we came to the conclusion that Jesus must be at the centre of everything we do.
    “If I be lifted up I will draw men unto me”
    Just like the snake on the pole in the wilderness.

    If all our attention is on Jesus and our gaze is on Him alone then we will not notice or see others around us and will even loose focus on ourselves.

    We will not be criticising our brothers faults because our focus will be on Him and Him alone.
    We will see others only in our peripheral vision and then we can only point then to look at Jesus and He will make them whole, just like the snake on the pole did.

    Bob

    ps. I tend to very honest and open about who I am, but sometimes feel that people here latch on to the problems and are too ready to give advice and fail to focus on Jesus, the source of life itself.

  128. foreverblessed says:

    Yes Bob, I am with you. All the while you are open to what bothers you, but you always point to Jesus.
    And for one thing, God delays His help. He goes to the edge of what we can handle.
    So hang on, do not give up!
    Like in the boat with the discliples, He could have stilled the storm much sooner, but waiting to intervene at the last moment makes the lesson learned much deeper.
    In my case, He does not take away the migraine yet. And I know why, it is His training, that I be totally dependent on Him. I can grow in trusting Him more fully, look to Him, as you say, like the snake on the pole.
    Look to Me and be saved, where is the verse in the Bible.
    I do appreciate it now having been brought up in a legalistic church, because now the message that the law does not help us in our christian life is so deeply written in my heart, It is Jesus we need. He is the essence of our life. (The mystery is Christ in you Col 1:) And He will help, but does delay, so we learn to persevere, and to overcome.
    Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

    You are my dear brother in Christ, persevere in looking to Him, as I do too.

  129. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    sorry for repeating myself, but wanted to add something

    I tend to be very honest and open about who I am because I suppressed my emotional and sexual feelings when I was a teenager. I will not go back to the place where I have to hide in the shadows. Whether or not people disagree I will always be who I am both in the flesh and in Christ, walking in the light of God. But I sometimes feel that people here latch on to the problems, seeing what is a basic emotion as sin and are too ready to give advice and fail to focus on Jesus, the source of life itself.

  130. Mart De Haan says:

    Through some real potential hurts and real misunderstanding, seems to me that this conversation has climbed to higher ground.

    You’ve made such a good point! As frightening and counter-intuitive as it may sound, living by the rules does not fill us with the truth and grace of Christ. Yet living by the the truth and grace of Christ… teaches us to value the loving intent and wisdom of the law and love of God.

  131. chfranke says:

    Mart,
    Living by the truth and grace of Christ, THE son of the everlasting God. What a concept!! Power and strength from humbling ourselves by placing our day by day life in the hands of the Creator.
    Falling into peace and comfort from which we can face any circumstance and take on any adventure! How stupendous is that! Thank you for providing a place where we can share, grow and affirm each other in this process for each of us on our own path.
    Chuck

  132. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    Bob & Lynda – You’re welcome (11:41 pm & 3:01 am)! :-)

    foreverblessed & Bob – GREAT comments (3:10 am & 3:43 am)!

    Bob is right, foreverblessed, “deep thinking” at such an early hour, but an excellent hour to ponder spiritual truths and to pray. :-) Both of your comments inspired me to share a poem that I saw in a book this morning that I was using to recall a scripture reference:

    “I Asked the Lord” by John Newton

    I asked the Lord that I might grow
    In faith, and love, and every grace,
    Might more of His salvation know,
    And seek more earnestly His face.

    ‘Twas He who taught me thus to pray,
    And He, I trust, has answered prayer;
    But it has been in such a way
    As almost drove me to despair.

    I hope that in some favored hour
    At once He’d answer my request;
    And, by His love’s constraining power,
    Subdue my sins, and give me rest.

    Instead of this, He made me feel
    The hidden evils of my heart,
    And let the angry powers of hell
    Assault my soul in every part.

    Yea, more, with His own hand He seemed
    Intent to aggravate my woe,
    Crossed all the fair designs I schemed,
    Blasted my gourds, and laid me low.

    “Lord, why is this?” I trembling cried,
    “Wilt Thou pursue Thy worm to death?”
    “‘Tis in this way,” the Lord replied,
    “I answer prayer for grace and faith.”

    “These inward trials I employ,
    From self and pride to set thee free,
    And break thy schemes of earthly joy,
    That thou mayest seek thy all in Me.”

    Blessings,

  133. Regina says:

    foreverblessed – Your testimony (4:13 am) was a blessing to me, especially this part:
    “Like in the boat with the discliples, He could have stilled the storm much sooner, but waiting to intervene at the last moment makes the lesson learned much deeper. In my case, He does not take away the migraine yet. And I know why, it is His training, that I be totally dependent on Him. I can grow in trusting Him more fully, look to Him, as you say, like the snake on the pole.”
    it brought to mind the scripture reference, 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, NIV:

    7) To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8) Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9) But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10) That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

    I like your blogger name too.

    Blessings,

  134. Regina says:

    Awesome comment, Mart (6:17 am)! :-) There’s so much truth in what you said. “…living by the rules does not fill us with the truth and grace of Christ. Yet living by the truth and grace of Christ… teaches us to value the loving intent and wisdom of the law and love of God.”

    A verse in a favorite song comes to mind:

    Well nothin’ lasts except the grace of God
    By which I stand in Jesus
    I’m sure that my whole life would waste away
    Except for grace by which I’m saved.

    Blessings,

  135. poohpity says:

    Bob,
    You are correct about the only good advice is when someone asks for it. Sometimes I believe that it is so much easier to try and fix someones problems rather than to look at one’s own. We all struggle with sin in some form or another. We have the example of Job’s friends who offered much advice and it would have been best for them to just sit and listen.

    Mart,
    Today’s ODB, I believe, fits so good with this current topic. It was really a good chuckle about the Panda.

  136. foreverblessed says:

    What a beautifull poem of Isaac Newton.
    So when Isaac asked for truth, God showed him the truth of his heart! And then he knew he even more needed grace.
    Thanks for sharing

  137. Puddleglum says:

    I do not contribute all that much to our discussions but I do read all your comments.
    I have been blessed and humbled by what I have read over the past few days. Thank you all.
    Bob, I can identify with you in your problem with alcohol. I suffer from sever scoliosis and turn to alcohol for relief when the pain gets too bad.
    Thank you Mart for providing this venue for discussion. It’s a great comfort to me in my struggle.
    Jesus never promised us a rose garden and has lived up to his promise as he always does.(This is not a complaint, just a statement of fact.)
    I do love you all, Please pray for me as I will for you.
    Ken

  138. Regina says:

    Good Afternoon All,

    foreverblessed – You’re welcome (10:18 am). :-)

    Blessings,

    p.s. I hope I didn’t come across as saying that you shouldn’t engage in “deep thinking” in the morning. That’s quite alright with me.

  139. foreverblessed says:

    Puddlegum, I pray that you turn to Jesus instead, for relief. and be patient to wait for Him.

    On this topic on slippery slope I would like to ask attention for my brother-in-law who is way beyond a slippery slope and falling down.
    He is gay, sexually very active, but unhappy, can’t stay with a partner, has a drinking problem, takes hash often.
    He was different right from a very young age, always wanted to be like a girl, did wear girls clothes.
    He has been depressed for some years, and lately developed compulsive behaviour, he has to clean all the time and things like that.
    He now is fed up with life, and wants to end it.
    His sister pursuaded him to first be internalised, which he consented to do. He will go to a antroposophical clinique in 7 days. (Rudolf Steiner). These 7 days are still in front of him.
    This is not a happy story, but if anyone has a prayer for him.

    Jesus is with us, in us, all around us. He loves us so much. I hope my brother-in-law will be touched by Jesus, comforted by Him. That is my prayer. But I ask some prayer for me too, so I can pray for him.
    Thank you for giving this time and attention, thanks a lot.

  140. foreverblessed says:

    Regina, that’s what I figured.
    Here are some more thoughts:
    You are so right, when we are weak, then God can be strong in us. So Paul did not fear his weakness, he knew how to value it.
    When I am not physicaly well, there is nothing I can do. Just sit or lie down quietly, nothing that disturbs, things I still have to do, so I can focus myself on Jesus more. And then the prayers started to come.
    So is that not a blessing?

  141. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    Puddleglum – I agree with foreverblessed regarding turning to Jesus for relief of pain instead of turning to alcohol. I think your comment, “Jesus never promised us a rose garden and has lived up to his promise as he always does…” reveals how you really feel inside. You should turn to Him and trust Him to heal your physical and emotional pain.

    You have to surrender it all to Him; ask Jesus to help you have faith in Him. The Bible says, “Many are the afflictions of the righteous,But the LORD delivers him out of them all” (Psalm 34:19, NKJV). Were you born with severe scoliosis? How did you contract the disease?

    Would share more but getting ready to prepare for church this morning. Will be praying for you and foreverblessed (for strength to pray for her brother-in-law).

    Blessings,

  142. foreverblessed says:

    My prayers for my brother-in-law were hindered, and I didn’t know why. Till suddenly this morning I saw that it was by my own thoughts that kpet coming up while praying for him:
    harsh thoughts, judgmental thoughts, like: that’s what you get when you live a self-centered life, you reap what you sow. And more of these.
    This is what God means: Get rid of the old man. Kill the self.
    How else could I do that then by giving it to Jesus, He has brought all my judgmental thoughts to the cross. While praying like this it came to mind that I should immediately ask for God’s grace, His mercy, His goodness towards my brother-in-law, and for faith in Christ.
    Thanks to God, I am so relieved, He will work it out.
    Bless you all.

  143. Puddleglum says:

    Regina and foreverblessed, do you think I have not begged THE lord over and over again for healing? This is not a desease I have but a condition of the spine. My spine has a “C” shaped curve. The spine, being the carrier of the central nerve system needs to be straight, not curved. I have had back pain most of my life and I am now 68 years of age. I am very tired of asking God to heal me. I am sure He is also tired of hearing it, so don’t tell me to turn it over to Jesus, I have done that many times.
    My comment was directed at Bob to let him know that he has someone in this world who understands his struggles. God does not heal everyone who asks for it. Paul, a good case in point. He has allowed alcohol into this world because He knows we are like grass. I do not believe I am on the slippery slope just because I use it. If and when I abuse it He lets me know He is not pleased in no uncertain terms believe me. My use of this “stuff” in no way changes the fact that Jesus died for me and that The Father has forgiven me. This life is a journey, none of us have arrived yet. I love you as fellow travelers on this journey. As C.S.Lewis,says, from whos writtings I have chosen my blog name, “when we arrive at the end of the journey, broken bruised and mud covered pilgrims we will be, but hot baths are waiting and new clothes to wear.
    foreverblessed: I am so glad to read your 8:44am.I also struggle with a judgemental spirit, but this blog site, and finding people like you, Regina and Bob in Cornwall, are helping me to change that. I know I will never be perfect in this world but it’s all part of the journey.
    Ken
    P.S Thank you again Mart, I hope I didn’t ramble too far off the topic.

  144. poohpity says:

    After I read this mornings passage Puddleglum your words just jumped out to me when Jesus admonished Peter about what fate was to come upon John. Jesus told Peter that was not something he had to think about it was up to Jesus alone to determine that. We all struggle with some things that are beyond our control and we can not know each man’s heart that is up to God but what we can do is walk this journey of life together helping to bare the burdens of each other in love. Having riches, physical health, many friends are not the determining factor of how much we are loved by our Lord and savior. We are loved by Him in spite of all worldly things for the benefit of His Glory. We never know what we would do in another’s life because only God knows ALL the details and we fool ourselves to think other wise.

  145. poohpity says:

    Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love.

    ~ Ephesians 4:2, NLT

  146. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Foreverblessed, I assume your brother in law lives in The Netherlands as well.
    It must be very difficult for him when drugs and gay sex are so readily available there.
    I know how to pray for him and you are correct about the judgemental thing.
    I know that there is no happiness to be found in persuing a relationship that is not based in love, that applies to both gay and straight relationships.
    Your brother in law has obviously never found true love and is now at a point where the True Love in Jesus will start to appeal to him.
    Just lift Jesus up and pray, no words will ever covince your brother but Jesus will.

    Bob

  147. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Pudddleglum,

    Thanks for sharing again.
    Yes you are so right, we can only ask God, like Paul, so many times to take away the pain.
    Mine is emotional and yours is Physical, but there comes a point when you have to just sit back and be at peace with yourself and accept the situation as it is.
    I get on with life now and am free from the shame of being gay and will not go back there.
    Yes the alcohol does help in the short term, but all is does for me is leave me short of money, that creates more problems.
    I think the advice given on this site is good advice and we both must look to Jesus more for the relief of our pain and grief.

    Bob

  148. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Puddleglum – Thank you for sharing more information about your spine condition.

    I want to speak to your comment: “I am very tired of asking God to heal me. I am sure He is also tired of hearing it, so don’t tell me to turn it over to Jesus, I have done that many times.”

    First, you only have to ask God “one time” for whatever you need. After you make your request known, you “thank Him” for providing what you need (i.e. physical healing, emotional healing, financial healing, etc.) until you see the manifestation of the thing you prayed for. That’s faith, and we know that without faith it’s impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6).

    Secondly, God never gets tired of hearing your requests or whatever you want to talk to Him about. He LOVES you. I want share some scriptures with you.

    1 Pet 5:7, NIV
    Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

    Psalm 55:22, NIV
    Cast your cares on the LORD and he will sustain you; he will never let the righteous fall.

    Philippians 4:6-7, NLT
    6) Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. 7) Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.

    Matthew 11:28, NLT
    Then Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest.”

    Don’t allow the devil to steal your joy and peace. Just worship and praise God until you see the manifestation of your healing, and even if He answers by telling you that His grace is sufficient, He’s still worthy of your worship and praise. In Him you live, move and have your being (Acts 17:28). Remember Job’s statement? “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him” (Job 13:15).

    In addition, alcohol is being used by the devil to trap people in bondage. Many people don’t have the discipline to drink it in moderation, and the devil is using their lack of discipline against them. I’m not judging people who drink, but I don’t because I don’t want to depend/trust in anyone or anything more than I depend/trust in Jesus.

    I pray, Puddleglum, that God will give you the help and strength that you need to totally trust Him.

    foreverblessed – I’m so glad that you received a revelation from God regarding how you should pray for your brother-in-law (with humility, understanding, compassion, grace and love).

    Blessings,

  149. Regina says:

    Puddleglum – I want to add something to what I shared with you in the third paragraph of my comment: You thank and “praise” God for providing what you need until you see the manifestation of what you prayed for.

    Blessings,

  150. foreverblessed says:

    Bob, I was so touched when I read your :
    “Your brother in law has obviously never found true love and is now at a point where the True Love in Jesus will start to appeal to him.”
    That is it, isn’t it: Exalting Jesus, Lift Him up.
    Yes Yes.
    When I was praying for him this morning, I dreaded the thooughts that would come up. But they hardly did, anyway, if they do I get rid of them, in Jesus name.
    BUt while praying, I was saaying God, I do noot know what to pray, Maary Magdaliene came to mind, when she went to the grave early in the morning, and found Jesus, He revealed Himself to her, she said, deeply moved and touched to the core of her being: “Rabboni!”.
    John 20:10-18
    I pray that all of us can say that to Jesus, to the bottom of our hearts.

  151. foreverblessed says:

    Bob, my brother-in-law lives in Amsterdam.
    He is so engaged in the gay scene, that he feels odd in the straight scene. He feels dicriminated then, but I think it is just the uneasiness about it.
    There are a lot of lost souls we can pray for, in a manner that resembles the Father who waits for the prodical son, Luke 15.

    Andd we cannot do that by ourselves, I have to ask for His mercy, His goodness.
    I guess that is what is meant by keeping the Sabbath, you shall do no work therein, none at all. Exodus 20:8-11.
    No work at all, none whatsoever:
    For anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work… Hebrews 4:10
    Is is not my prayer, but I give myself to God totally and then the Holy Spirit can pray through me.
    What I have to do is kill the old man, my judgmental attitude.
    I am so glad I did that, and I need to keep on doinng that, as soon as it appears again.
    We are to be children of God, not slave men.
    Get rid of the slave woman, Gal 4:30-31
    we are children of the free woman, the Jerusalem that is above is free, aand she is our mother vv26
    And if we think that we are free to sin again we have noot killed the old man, when you have killed it, or are in the process of doing that, it no longer can sin, it is dead. Free to live in the Spirit, living in the resurrected power of Jesus Christ, and He has nothing to do with sin.

    No Jesus is perfect, and so should we be, and yet we are helpless, need His Life in us.
    Everyday I start asking for more faith in Jesus, more Love.

    Puddlegum I pray for you too, hang in there brother, keep up the good spirit. Thanks Regina for all your prayers, when you prayed God gave me this insight (get rid of the judgmental spirit), thanks!

  152. Puddleglum says:

    Thank you all for your prayers and comments.
    I love you.
    Ken

  153. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    Ken – You’re welcome. :-) I (we) love you too.

    Blessings,

  154. wpleasant says:

    Emailing RBC and Our Daily Bread to friends probably has a lot to do with the increase of website visits. “Been Thinking About” is unique blog that allows interaction. That is one of it’s main strengths. I’m learning so much from others.

  155. nezzar says:

    I haven’t read the other comments yet, but I can’t help but comment on the topic. usually when I hear the slippery slope comment what I really hear is “hay I’m out of scripture and have no other knowledge to contribute to this argument, but I still want to win.” I also think that safety rails can lead to legalism and religion. Our safety net has always been relationship with a holy God. If I were to have a problem with alcohol and I unknowingly ended up somewhere where people were drinking I might just leave because I can’t handle the temptation. That is a good safety rail, but it becomes legalism when I say something like Christians shouldn’t be anywhere where alcohol is consumed.

    Our primary safety rail should always be the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I am in a workplace where crass words are spoken all the time, but I’m convicted when I say those things. I’ve had to pray the Holy Spirit convict me when I think those words too. Am I to yell at everyone who says one crass word. I’d be yelling nonstop all day and I’d just be another religious nut. So I order only my own conduct. People are acctualy surprised when one of those words slips out, which tells me that they notice.

    There are times when Jesus wants us to tell others that what they are doing is not right, but it’s only with other Christians and we have to be careful not to be self rightious or prideful in how we handle it. For example: I had a Christian brother who had a lot of pictures of nearly nude women on his walls; they weren’t completely nude so he thought it was OK. Jesus told me to confront him about it. He was no longer listening to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and he needed someone to tell him what was up. Now do I march right up and yell “SINNER your going to HELL!” That would have just made him cling to his justification all the harder. I asked Jesus for humility and the right approch. So when I talked to him I said, “I have also had problems with this stuff, but God convicted me of this and when I finally got rid of it He showed me the verse don’t look at a yung woman to lust for her, because this is committing adultery of the heart.” If I hadn’t been humble and admitted that I also struggle with sin then he would never have taken those pictures down.

    Why do I go on such a long tangent, because I feel the need to guard against the slippery slope of the slippery slope argument, and at the same time guard against the safety rails becoming legalism and religiousness. Because I have such a tendancy to fall off those slopes myself. All that keeps me safe is my relationship with Jesus.

  156. poohpity says:

    Amen and Amen!! Sounds like the humble and caring way to love a brother while knowing that we may also fall into a trap ourselves with self righteousness, legalism and pride.

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