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Talk Radio Tactics and Attitudes

I wish I could remember all of the conversations I’ve had over the past year that have left me with the distinct impression that, by mirroring the values and attitudes of Talk Radio or Talk Television, followers of Christ have unintentionally left him for someone else.

As a rule I don’t think the labels “conservative” or “liberal” are fair, because, from a New Testament point of view, what matters is not whether we are conservative or liberal, but what we are “conserving and protecting” and what we are willing to “change and leave behind.”

But I’m going to make an exception because how we characterize ourselves spiritually and politically has become something that seems especially timely and urgent to talk about. If by trying to combine conservative theology with conservative politics, we leave behind the foundational attitudes of Christ (Matt 5:1-12; Gal 5:22-23), and the wisdom that is from God (James 3:13-17), have we not become “liberal” in the sense of “leaving behind” and “changing from” what is essential to our relation to God and others?

Or to become even more direct, are some of us developing a “kick–something” attitude rather than a heart that has been radicalized by truth and grace?

I don’t want to get into names and personalities, because that would turn this into a political debate rather than into a discussion of whether we are unknowingly losing our hearts and minds not only to “the left” but to “the right”.


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50 Responses to “Talk Radio Tactics and Attitudes”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Over the past couple years we have discussed how the things we believe, feel, act upon etc are all influenced by where we’ve been and where we are at the present.

    We, especialy we Americans, are a self governing people. So we are a political people.

    We are also a religious people, and so our politics are influenced by our religions.

    To me the most dangerous type of government is the abandonment of faith in God, and the belief that man can govern himself without that union between man and God.

    Leaving politics of government and looking at the politics of faith and the different ways we all see and observe our faith, I wonder if conservative and liberal are accurate *labels*?

    It seems to me that within religion, it could be divided between *orthodox* and * unorthodox*

    Over the past couple years I have seen here in the blog, traditional values or beliefs challanged as to bring what the scripture says into a more *modern* thinking, by unorthodox theology.

    So emotional, are the topics of politics and religion, that it is the sort of thing that can, and most often does, destroy friendships and relationships.

    So venturing out into this discussion, be prepared to lose a friend for the beliefs you hold on to or make your stand upon.

    I have often said, that I believe a certain way, and for the sake of open-mindedness gave others the room to believe the way they want; But not to try and change the way I believe, only to be labeled, prideful or stuborn as a result.

    For my thinking to move away from the orthodox understanding of scripture is a very dangerous step. One to be taken with all due thought and consideration…or else I may find myself on the slippery slope we discussed on the previous topic.

    Left or right?…. For me I try to be up, above, over…rather than which side of the aisle my thoughts align with.

    Setting on the porch with my morning coffee…

    Steve

  2. Mart De Haan says:

    Good morning, Steve,

    We begin on the same page today. Both of us believe that to drift or swerve from orthodoxy of faith is a sobering danger.

    We also would agree that our faith in Christ should shape every part of our life, including our views toward government.

    The question that comes to mind is whether the kind of New Testament orthodoxy Paul expresses in Romans 13 gives us reason to be ready to sacrifice our friendship in Christ based on our opinion of Caesar and his policies?

    Thanks for helping to get the conversation going. I’m going to step aside for a while and see where this goes…. with the hope that we will, in the end, deepen friendships by talking through the issues that tend to divide us.

  3. Regina says:

    Good Morning, All,

    Mart & Steve – I agree with both of you that, “our faith in Christ should shape every part of our life, including our views toward government.”

    I have a question for Mart though (and I know you said that you were going to step aside for awhile, so it’s ok if it’s answered later on). First, your question: “The question that comes to mind is whether the kind of New Testament orthodoxy Paul expresses in Romans 13 gives us reason to be ready to sacrifice our friendship in Christ based on our opinion of Caesar and his policies?”

    Did you mean, our “friendships” in Christ? …asking this question because I don’t know any Christian who would (knowingly) sacrifice their friendship with Christ based on their opinion of Ceasar and his policies.

    Like Steve said, I can see how “Left or Right” and “unorthodox theology” could become a “slippery slope” for some Christians. We don’t want to allow anyone or anything to have a negative affect on our relationship with Christ or our relationships with our brothers & sisters in Christ.

    Colossians 3:1-2, NIV says, “1) Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2) Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.”

    Blessings,

  4. rxman says:

    Steve,

    I, too, wonder about stepping away from orthodox theology and whether I am straying too far. But, I was watching Men in Black 1 last night. At the beginning of the show, they are talking about what they think they know. One guy says 1000 years ago, man thought that earth was the center of the universe and 500 years ago man thought the earth was flat.

    In the spiritual sense, when Jesus came on the scene, He challenged all kinds of religious thinking that was the “norm” for the day. And Martin Luther was thrown out of the church for his “radical” thinking.

    I guess I feel that if we are not progressing in our personal revelation of who God is and also in the universal revelation of who He is, we are in our own Dark Ages. We don’t want to hear things we may disagree with in fear that we may agree with them!

    I suppose what I am saying is God doesn’t mind us asking questions. I heard a guy say the other day, “we need a little doubt every once in a while to test our faith”.

  5. bubbles says:

    Several years ago, I was employed in a Christian workplace. When a particular person was elected, many believers were very displeased. The secretary of this workplace was very outspoken about her dislike and disapproval of this person and his wife.

    I became uncomfortable with her remarks. We had people coming and going out of the office daily. What if those people had voted for this man, and heard what the secretary had to say?

    The same thing happened at church. There was one man in particular who used opportunites available to bash another elected person. It embarrassed me. What if there were visitors of this politicial persuasion? What if they were unbelievers? Another person began sending me emails recently that were ‘politicial’ in nature that again were in constant criticism of one person. I did not ask to be put on his email list. I requested to be removed from his address list. I didn’t give a reason for being removed. He no longer speaks to me.

    The constant criticism of certain political leaders appears to be the ‘in’ thing to do in “Christian” circles. While we should stand for what is right and true according to the Word of God, is this constant berating of those in authority what Jesus would have done?

    I wonder how different the leadership would be if all believers spent as much time praying for our leadership rather than PREYING on them.

  6. mrhsea says:

    Clearly, God fearing Pilgrims so desired to raise their families to love and fear God, without the persecution of men and governments that they were willing to separate themselves to a new world to find that opportunity. The Bible dictated their world view and they were willing to defend their convictions, their God given inalienable rights. Yet, they were a peaceable, loving, generous, compassionate people.

    I believe the God of the Bible to be a God of balance, for even Jesus was angry and agitated when He took a whip, challenged their authority, and threw the money changers out of the temple, while proclaiming “my house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves”. Matt 21:13; Mark 11:17; Luke 19:46

    I also find Peter and the apostles in Acts 5:29 “we ought to obey God rather than men”. When persecution arrived Peter was willing to speak out, rather than be silenced by those in authority on many occasions, and the angel of the Lord helped him even escape from prison.

    Matt 22:21; Mar 12:17 and Luke 20:25 Jesus tells us that governments do hold an authority over us and we should “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars” while giving to God what is His. And 1 Tim 2 admonishes us to pray for those in authority over us.

    Walking this line of balance today is not any easier than it was in the 1st century AD. We need to be in God’s Word daily, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, ready to suffer, and ready to stand firm.

  7. tandgmartin says:

    Great topic, Mart, and good for you for venturing into it. We’ve unfortunately experienced being shunned at our own church simply because we’ve offered certain ideas during group discussion times which caused vehement responses and judgements from “those in power” within the church. Disappointing to say the least.
    I believe that we do have a duty to our country as long as it doesn’t conflict with our duty to God. I’ve seen too much where people have merged the two too closely.
    I find when I spend time in God’s Word rather than watch some news show, I’m much more uplifted. (I know that one is a slam-dunk, but I just wanted to say it> :) )
    Have a blessed day, everyone.

  8. foreverblessed says:

    Jesus said: a den of thieves:
    Well this country has long ago gone the slippery slope of following the money, because those in politics, whether they are followers of Christ or not, are being paid by companies in their election campaign, and subsequently as soon as they are in power, do what these companies require of them.
    So money rules US.

    And here in Europe it is nothing better.

    I agree with Regina: set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Col 3

    And one more point:
    As orthodox christians we should be at rest in Jesus Christ. Calm and peacefull, loving and mercifull.
    And when politics come at hand suddenly for some here, the whole atmosphere changes:
    bitter, aggresive, militant.
    Where is Christ, is He not our Master?

  9. poohpity says:

    The scriptures you cited Mart, brought a joy to my heart which created a smile on my face. I think sometimes in our quest we tend to forget those things that are what truly set us apart from the nonbeliever’s. It is getting harder and harder to tell the difference.

    Some folks tend to berate and belittle our government which if we truly believe that God is in control, we would choose to pray for the huge responsibility they have on their shoulders. I am not speaking of hiding our heads in the sand but more like nobody really knows what side of the isle we are on or what country we reside in but that our identity comes from our Beatitudes, or the Fruit of the Spirit.

    We are given a job to testify about what Jesus did for us and show His love to others by thinking of others being better than ourselves. When we start to be identified by our political views then there is something really wrong somewhere. It is sort of like how people are that go to church on Sunday (Saturday Orthodox) when they enter the sanctuary they leave who they are during the rest of the week at the door then pick it up again on their way out.

    It is like this topic if I had not read the verses you cited I may not have really understood the WHOLE point of the topic. Thank you again for bringing my focus onto what is really important to me.

  10. SFDBWV says:

    Romans 13 can be divided into three parts :1-7 Obedience to autority, :8-10 Love fufills the law, and :11-14 An awarness of the end of time.

    Paul explains in verses 1-7 that since God has placed all in authority, we should bend to their authority and obey the law of the land, that inso doing we are also honoring God.

    In verses 8-10 Paul explains that we are to owe nothing to oneanother, we are to love one another, that love does no evil to its neighbor henceforth love is the fulfillment of of the law.

    In the final 4 verses 11-14 Paul explains again that we are to live holy lives and inso doing are no offence to any.

    In Daniel, we read that not only Daniel but Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, refused to honor the law of the land because in came into conflict with their religious orthodox comandments……God blessed their steadfast obedience to His will.

    I have read an interesting study that brought to mind that if you notice, Paul always has nothing bad to say about the Centurian guards and the authority of Rome. In many ways they are depicted as the good guys.

    The Book of Romans it has been said is the writen instrument that opened the eyes of Emperor Constantine, and led him to accept Christianity as the official religion of Rome.

    I will return with more on this subject as I have to go.

    Steve

  11. SFDBWV says:

    My appologies to all, this is a casualty of my trying to write during the day… interuptions.

    When satan is tempting Jesus, he states to Jesus that all the kingdoms and governments of the world are given to him to place whomever he wants over them….Was he just simply lieing? (Luke 4:6)

    If we accept it to be that all governments are placed by God. What about Idi Imin, who killed several hundred thousand of his own countrymen and even practiced canibalism?

    What of Joe Stalin whom is said to have killed millions under his leadership and outlawed Christianity?

    What of Hitler?

    Can we idly stand by and allow such monsters to be in our midst, and control of our governments? Without raising a hand to defend the undefended?

    Are we not to make a stand against evil governing?

    Steve

  12. SFDBWV says:

    Ultimately, the only person we can be accountable for is ourselves.

    The attitude and actions of any other is not under our control.

    So taking that understanding, I am to live a life so as not to offend any, but show love to all, in action as well attitude.

    So that at the end of the age I can stand before God and say, I did my best to live as you wanted me to. Leaving to God the matter of dealing with all who offended me.

    Does living such a life give me the right to “boast”? No, because only through the sacrifice and blood of Christ can I come before God and be presented not guilty. Not by any action of my own doing.

    Yet I must cast off all wickedness of this world while still living here, and live a holy life. Whew, I have a long ways to go….

    One of the most difficult undertakings of my life are to observe thoes around me without having an opinion of their behavior. There is a small slippery step then between that and a judgement.

    I am always in need of the grace of God and guidence from the Holy Spirit.

    Steve

  13. poohpity says:

    I think the scriptures in Matthew, Galatians and James that Mart listed are what we need to see over every area of life even over government or politics.

  14. pegramsdell says:

    I know exactly what you talking about Steve. I sometimes have to grit my teeth not to say something because I don’t want to be judgemental about everything. It is hard.

  15. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Well I almost hesitate to conribute to this discussion mainly because I come from a Liberal background and, dare I say it “as a gay man” find alot of what is said in the USA absolute twodle.
    The only politics Christians should adopt is left of centre. Most of you appear to me near to Hitler in your thinking.
    Government should be free of religion as it was in Jesus time.
    We are set apart, and as soon as you mix state and church, as with Constantine and the holy roman thing, you end up in a mess.
    This age is coming to an end, the age of the Gentiles is about to finish. God is going establish Israel.

    Wake up!

    Bob

  16. sgfmba says:

    Clearly, nothing must usurp our commitment to our Lord. If we allow politics to become an idol, looking at this arena as being more consequential than our walk with Christ and our love for others, then we’ve veered off track and need to refocus.

    That said, I disagree with those who believe that Christians have no place in political office (or even political discussions). Some have argued that Jesus and the disciples did not try to change the corrupt Roman system, but rather focused on soul-winning. While this is obviously true, does it follow that 21st century American believers should choose to be ignorant of our country’s history and current events?

    Indeed, if our founders had taken the position that tyranny (under King George III) was none of their business and that they need only focus on “spiritual” matters, America would not exist. Would this be preferable?

    Our founders were, for the most part, Christians (not simply deists, as some have suggested). Personally, I love reading the frequent and direct references to the Lordship of Christ, the sovereignty and goodness of God, and His divine plan and purpose in choosing for this country to exist. Of course, in government-run schools, history (particularly the role and nature of the founders) is grossly mischaracterized. I consider it better to have an accurate perception of American history, as it most decidedly honors God throughout.

    It’s not that we have a perfect country. Our flaws have sometimes been egregious, most notably as pertains to slavery. But I, for one, do not wish to tolerate my beloved country being ripped to shreds every day by a corrupt and incompetent media, lying politicians, and left-leaning elitists of every stripe.

    And then there are those who are simply ignorant of the greatness of America. Throughout their lives, they have been told that we are an unjust, immoral country, and that we do not deserve to be a great nation. Through the public education system, popular entertainment, and of course the media, they are fed Marxist ideology day in and day out.

    So, when I hear my country being trashed, am I supposed to do nothing? When I become aware of the current batch of politicians openly and brazenly stealing from my children and their children (through unprecedented deficit spending)—wantonly and quite intentionally bankrupting us as quickly as possible—should I sit idly by and let it happen?

    The founders wouldn’t. They would fight. Of course, I am not in any respect condoning violence (it’s the Left that has the monopoly on that, since they are unable to defend their arguments and have no fear of God). Rather, I hold that being armed intellectually—and informing others—is not a bad thing.

    And how would any of us know what’s going on without the new media (viz., talk radio, the Internet, and Fox News)? Or are these outlets of information somehow inappropriate?

    The people of this country who are either Christians (which would include myself and probably most or all of the readers of this blog) have been politically passive and uninformed for far too long. At last, that is changing—and this is good.

    Do understand that left unchecked, the godless statists that currently hold power will do everything they can to:

    * Ensure that the United States loses its prosperity and sovereignty, placing us under the control of an unelected and unaccountable body such as the UN
    * Always keep it legal to murder countless unborn children, even up to and including infanticide
    * Nationally legalize same-sex marriage
    * Nationally legalize euthanasia
    * Legalize narcotics, bringing addiction and death to who knows how many in current and future generations
    * With the help of groups like the ACLU, find ways to circumvent our constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion, speech, and expression (there won’t be an RBC anymore, for example, and witnessing would eventually become punishable by fines or imprisonment)

    Are we really supposed to do nothing about this? Is it really somehow wrong to be informed about what’s going on and to discuss it with others? Or should only unbelievers have their viewpoint expressed?

    Names of talk shows were not provided in the original posting of this blog, but I’ll name some. How about Phyllis Schlafly? Is her involvement in exposing (and fighting) the statist attempts to completely ruin the education system somehow misguided? Or what about Dr. James Dobson? Should he stop advocating on behalf of the unborn and ignore their slaughter? What about the American Center for Law and Justice? Is Jay Sekulow out of line for fighting the forces at work to undermine all this country has been, as they relentlessly chip away at the traditional, God-honoring values we as believers hold dear?

    Perhaps they should all just pack up and go home, leaving the airwaves to MSNBC and NPR. Would that be a better alternative? I think not.

    Let me be perfectly clear. There is nothing that means more to me than my relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ; nothing can ever come close. And I have had the privilege of sharing what He has done for me with others, as the Great Commission calls us to do. As relates to this blog posting, however, I simply do not understand the premise that Christians should be apolitical, uninformed, or silent about matters of obviously crucial importance.

    Additionally, I reject the idea that Christians should never be angry. We should be loving and tactful, but if tyranny and the destruction of our country is staring us in the face, does anyone seriously posit the notion that it’s best to just ignore it and focus on only “spiritual” concerns? What am I missing here?

    Now, do some talk shows get out of line at times? Yes. And do some patriots, passionate for our country and deeply concerned for its future get loud when verbally defending it? Indeed they do, and I consider it a good thing within the appropriate context (so long as they do not become disrespectful or obnoxious). Finally, is it possible to get so involved with political matters that one neglects the more important things, such as spending quality time in the Word and prayer, having fellowship, witnessing, and being involved in one’s family? Of course. Anything can become an idol, and this should obviously be guarded against.

    In sum, I am a Christian. However, I see no scriptural basis for pacifism, inaction, or ignorance. It is indisputable that if those with godly views do not quickly elect leaders who will represent our values, America will become a third-world disaster where faith in anything but the State is a crime. I do not want that, and I hope that no one reading this suggests we do not exercise our voice as citizens.

    If I’m wrong, or I’m missing something, I welcome other perspectives. For me, though, I see nothing wrong with being a proud Christian, conservative, and informed American.

    Finally, even if on some matters we disagree, please vote each election for those who best reflect our values—it has never been more important.

  17. poohpity says:

    I do not believe that in any way was I asserting to not take any stand in acquiring knowledge of what is going on in the political arena or taking no part as an American citizen like voting or writing letters to get my voice heard. I think what the topic at hand was speaking to are the attitudes, behaviors and wisdom used to do so. There are those that are down right ugly when it comes to expressing their opinions which goes entirely against our beliefs as professing Christians. There are ways to be heard and still hold tight to our identity in Christ. The tactics we use to be heard can benefit both God and man.

  18. saled says:

    Anybody here heard the word jingo? I had never heard it until one of my daughter’s sixth grade classmates called her that way back in the 90’s. And guess what? He was right. She was parroting what her parents said, who were parroting what right-wing talk radio said. Hence the phrase “ditto head.”

    I haven’t listened to it since I realized that the right wing had an agenda just as the left. And that agenda included attracting an army of ‘yes men.’ I agree with Mart that by mirroring the values and attitudes of Christian talk radio/TV, we have unintentionally left Jesus for someone else.

  19. mrhsea says:

    sgfmba, Thank you for your comments. Standing firm for truth is exactly what Jesus would do, even while we pray for those in authority.

  20. phpatato says:

    Wow sgfmba, you had the hair on my arms raised!! I commend you for your thought-provoking post.

    As a Canadian, I am worried by what you say especially with your * points. They are so true! It is a known fact that in almost all instances, what the Americans do, Canada will follow (although we did change to the metric system on our own and I couldn’t believe it when that happened) :-). But sadly, your * point listed the third down has already happened in my country.

    God is watching. Something has to happen to wake us up. I believe a North American spiritual revival is sorely needed and if that happens because of someone who is the Holy Spirit filled via talk radio or talk tv, then AMEN.

  21. foreverblessed says:

    8 years ago, in my country a political figure came up on the scene, he was going to change the country. Our country was polarised by two side, the side for him and the side against him. The one side that was very positive about him, they were looking at him as it were as a Saviour, this is the man that will make our country straigth.
    It even came into our churches. Even evangelical and pentecostal church leaders were interested in him, and wanted to talk with him about how to change the government.
    But this man would make old party members as suspect, they are the ones who ruin this country. He used language to discredit all politicians. And when he himself was blamed to polarise the country he would say: I am being demonised..

    I was so alarmed by it.
    Now what to do, warn the people of this man?
    Or go to Christ?
    We were praying together in a housegroup, and while praying the word came:
    We had to be like little children, playing in the garden. Like a little child that trusts his parents for running the daily living in his family.
    And that’s what I tried to do, go on with my life and be a happy christian, even in the side of this seemingly coming disaster.
    So if anyone asks; How can you sit still, and see that your country is being ruined? That is possible if Jesus Christ tells you to do so.
    We must come at rest in Jesus life. Be totally calm in Him.
    Jesus cannot work through us if we are upset. We are not at rest and cannot follow His lead in our lives.
    That is what James 3 says.
    We must always be loving and full of mercy, Gal 5:22.
    And then only act if Jesus tells you specifically.
    The christians in Hitlers time had to do that too. Corrie ten Boom is a good example, she made it here job to defend the powerless, the Jews that were being persecuted, she did that even to the risk of losing her life!
    About that fellow who became very popular 8 years ago. He was a strange man, had been very leftish when he was young, and later turned very right. He was murdered by a left extremist. And that was that.

  22. Mart De Haan says:

    There is a time for anger and, as Job shows us, God’s people are to be known as advocates for the oppressed (Job 29:11-17). We are also to be good for any country in which we live. When God places people in high places as he did Joseph and Daniel, the result can be good for all.

    If followers of Christ could be known for doing good to all (Gal 6:10), it would certainly be good for the Name of Christ and something that we have been urged to do.

    But when the people of Christ become known more for our selective legal and moral advocacy than for our reflection of the beatitudes of Christ, the fruit of the Spirit, and the characteristics of wisdom; and when we put ourselves in an unequal partisan political yoke that unites us with those who will do and say anything to get their candidate elected, then isn’t it possible that we have lost or forgotten something fundamental to who we are called to be?

    I’m sure it was no mistake that Jesus’ primary enemies were not atheists or idol worshipers (even though Pilate and the executioners certainly ended up putting their hand to his’ execution.) It has to be significant that Jesus was hated most by those who were known for their Jewish pride and nationalism; resistance to pagan Greek and Roman influence; and advocacy for the Law of God.

    I’m not saying that any reader of this blog does not love Jesus. I’m saying… what if we, while thinking we are loving Jesus and our neighbor, end up unintentionally disregarding his Spirit by considering– as a lesser matter… as a shallow or gullible strategy… or as a too docile attitude– the beatitude teaching of our Lord, the characteristics of his Spirit as described by Paul, or the essential marks of wisdom as described by James?

  23. SFDBWV says:

    Long before CNN there was talk radio and news. TV and radio was about entertainment and advertisement.

    It didn’t take very long for the specialists to realize the market oppertunity of reaching the masses.

    The earliest talk radio programs were Christian radio, proclaiming the gospel and providing both daily sermons as well as the education of the scripture to millions.

    We were a different people then. We had a little more class, and showed restraint as to what we said and how we influenced the young.

    Just as predicted in many places throughout the prophets, our society has and is changing. We accept behavior now that never would have been tolerated in the generations of our parents or grandparents.

    The talk shows of TV range from excellent places for information to the ridiculess, radio is no different, and as we get more technical, now you have sattilite radio and specialist subjects for any appetite.

    As well as the internet.

    Remembering what we take into our hearts has a way of sticking around we must be very careful just what we allow in.

    We have an edge….if we listen to that still small voice in us we can discern through the eyes of the Holy Spirit. He will warn us of the wolf in sheeps clothing that may be present in all situations….if we heed the warning.

    What can happen is, if we are believing we are living the attitude of Christ, then we somehow feel that our political idiology is in line with Christ’s desire for our lives.

    So when we have political differences, in our hearts we feel it an affront to not only our thinking but God’s as well….So emotions errupt.

    Of course this is not Christ’s desire for us to argue politics amongst ourselves, but to love one another as Paul says in Romans 13.

    Ah, as Shakespere says, there is the rub…

    Easier said than done.

    Steve

  24. Mart De Haan says:

    And in addition to knowing and doing there is also the subtle but important distinction between information, knowledge, and wisdom.

  25. nscarimbolo says:

    Dear Mart,

    I have only read your blog twice and both times you have broken your rule regarding addressing political issues. I think that your rule is a good one worth adhering to; political labels and leanings have no correlation to one’s heart for Jesus and using them as you have can not only detract others from the teachings of Jesus, but also runs the risk of dragging the divine down into the dirt of politics. There are better ways of being used of God to help others and oneself keep God first – not any political agenda.

  26. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    Mart – This blog topic is very interesting and informative. I appreciate all of the comments shared in this blog.

    sgfmba – I agree with most (if not all) of the points you made in your comment (6:14 p.m.), and I enjoyed reading the good information that you shared.

    However, the challenge that this country faces is getting the unbelievers and the believers (in Christ) to agree on how this country should be governed.

    A Bible verse comes to mind: 2 Chronicles 7:14, NIV
    “If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.”

    There are unbelievers in powerful positions (in this country) who, as we know, are not seeking God’s divine guidance on how to govern this country. And there are some “Christians” in powerful positions who don’t seek to do God’s will on behalf of this country–they’re not trusting in His divine guidance–they’re only interested in their own agenda and maintaining the status quo.

    I believe that Spirit-filled Christians need to come together in unified prayer for the fate of this country and it’s future prosperity. We need God’s help in order for the “powers that be” to be willing to align their will with God’s will for this country.

    Blessings,

  27. SFDBWV says:

    nscarimbolo, If you had dropped in more often than twice you would see that Mart takes us out into deep water often.

    We see some pretty hot tempers as a result, but we also see some wisdom from many different perspectives that can help us understand a little better the different attitudes from others…Hopefu;;y so that instead of anger perhaps we can understand better and be easier for us to love an enemy rather than just see them an an enemy.

    We all have to live here for now and we all struggle with influences from around us. We need to find the ballance and share our love for Christ with others in the course of sorting out our differences.

    I hope you stick around.

    Steve

  28. SFDBWV says:

    Bob, ole buddy, can you explain twodle? For us that don’t speak english…

    I appologize Bob, I’m just trying to lighten up the mood a little.

    Soap Box…”Any improvised platform used by a person making an informal, often impassioned speach, to a street audience, as on a current, controversial issue.”

    At least from the written record the Greeks were especialy fond of standing before an audience and expressing their thoughts. Paul used the practice to bring the Gospel to Mars Hill.

    In the free world we still have the practice of letting people say whatever they want. Many times it is in just such a venue as the good ole soap box.

    Though now instead of on a street corner, most people can get in front of a camera or mic and have their say.

    Many times people will come accross as intelligent and others as……well less intelligent.

    We must be able to listen and not be too easily swayed, by the opinions of others. By standing on a good solid foundation of knowledge. But willing to listen and allow others their turn at the mic, in front of the camera, or on the soap box.

    Steve

  29. Mart De Haan says:

    nscarimbolo,

    Thank you for your note and expression of concern. Steve’s reply expresses my heart. But I also went back and checked our guidelines which indicate that we will not post “political comments”.

    In doing so, I now recall that our guidelines reflect the fact that, early on, one of us at “Been Thinking.org” would actually screen and approve comments. Over time we learned that it makes more sense to eliminate the “screening step” and allow for comments to instantly post.

    Along the way we’ve tried to be generous with the guidelines–while also being ready to curb “take-overs”. As long as we’re in the ballpark and trying to move ahead helping one another think through issues as friends– seems to work well.

    As for political content, the original intent for that guideline, as I recall it, was that we are not here to press partisan, political arguments which are bound to divide us– but instead to agree or disagree, when necessary, how our relationship with Christ leads us to enter constructively, honestly, and reasonably into a world of political issues.

    To avoid partisanship, (even though that is very difficult), I’ve tried to avoid using personal names of individuals or parties– just because that tends to immediately ruffle feathers more than talking about “ideas” or principles.

    Because conversation is an art (requiring colorfully balanced, restraint and expression) as much as a science (i.e. pursuit of knowledge), some of what we do falls short of all of our expectations. At other times we seem to rise together on a story, or an insight, or a heartfelt longing for truth and grace that surprises us with its shared insight and joy.

    That’s some of what I think has made this such an interesting and profitable, if bumpy, ride :-)…

  30. poohpity says:

    Gee, Mart, I guess you fully understand what Jesus meant when he often said, “He who has ears, let him hear”.

  31. Regina says:

    Well said, Mart (10:43 am). I think Jesus is pleased with your response to nscarimbolo’s comment. Like Steve said, nscarimbolo, I hope you stick around too. This is one of the best (Christian) blog sites online! :-)

    Blessings,

  32. JediKnight4Him says:

    Greetings! I am an Alien as some of yourselves are….not of this world. I suggest we take them “in government” to our Leader……in prayer.

  33. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Thanks for your light hearted approach Steve.
    If I explained the word Twodle it may offend as English is full of words that mean alot but say nothing and visa-versa.
    One of it’s great attributes!

    Let’s just say Twodle is often what comes out of The Palace of Westminster, US Congress and many a pulpit around the world, not to mention Talk Radio and Telivision.
    Somestimes shows it’s face here to.

    Bob

  34. SFDBWV says:

    Morning has come, oil is still gushing into the gulf, conspiracy theorists are full of imagination, And the President of the USA came on TV to answer all the criticizims of this mess happening on his watch.

    Talk radio, and TV newsmen will all be telling us how we should be thinking about what we see and have heard for ourselves.

    Not because we are too stupid to see and understand for ourselves, but so thet we will be confused about what we see and understand.

    Confusion opens a doorway to doubt.

    According to scripture ( 1Cor 14:33 ) God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.

    Thinking along this line, like a good lawyer a good talkshow host will cause you to doubt what you already thought was fact.

    Bringing this to theology, we also have spin doctors who want us to doubt what is clearly stated in scripture. So as to confuse us just long enough to get into out heads and….change our thinking.

    It is why Paul urged us to always be wearing the armor of God. That protective sphere that repels the firey darts of doubt and confusion concerning our faith.

    Some Christian sects and people have tried to seperate themselves from the world around them, so as to not get drawn into the politics of this world. I am not sure that is a defense at all.

    Only with knowledge can we have power over thoes who would use us, for their own gain.

    That knowledge comes from a root and foundation based upon Christ, with an awareness, as Christ said in Matt 16:” Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents , and harmless as doves.”

    Good advice from the Master.

    Steve

  35. Cucch says:

    Great discussion; I’ve really enjoyed reading all points of view. Isn’t that the real point here? Two ears, one mouth…
    I have a very close friend who I’m sure would be labeled a far left liberal. He is not a believer in Christ. I disagree with him on just about everything, but I enjoy so much the dinners I have with him occasionally and the discussions we get into. I listen more than talk, but I try to use my opportunities to speak with gentle speech pointed with truth. I will never win him over to Christ or to my political way of thinking by getting into an argument or shaking my fist.
    I think we should stand firm on our Christian principles in political debates without becoming the shrill voices and red faced people that bear no resemblance to our gentle savior.

  36. Mcsquare says:

    I’ve been following the “Tea Party” movement, but have resisted becoming involved in it – not sure that some might use the movement for other than altruistic reasons. One local group, not directly affiliated with any tea party, has taken another tack. They are emphasizing the educational aspect. Encouraging people to read the Constitution and the Federalist Papers and providing seminars and materials to learn about the Constitution. There are many other groups, as well, that are trying to educate Americans on our true heritage, including the place that the Creator had in the thinking of our Founders.

    I can’t help but think of a Biblical parallel. In 2 Kings 22-23, Josiah is king over a wayward Israel. He was a God fearing king amongst so many evil ones. When the Book of the Law was discovered in the temple, he realized how far Israel had strayed. The scroll was read before all the people and the people pledged themselves to the covenant in the scroll.

    How many times have we said (or thought) of a scoffer of Christianity, “Have you read the Bible?” The truth within the pages of the Bible show us how to live our lives. Perhaps the truth of what is in our Constitution should once again guide us on what government should and should not do. So many today try to make government what they think it should be, just as they make religion what they think it should be for them. Time to read the book! Time to read what the Founders intentions where! Founders who realized that only a moral and religious people could be governed by what they created with the help of God.

    I don’t believe a Constitutional revival is possible without a Spiritual revival as well. Maybe it is time for those of us who are Christians to get involved and change the direction our country is headed. Josiah did!

  37. poohpity says:

    Wow, such great wisdom. If it is done with the attitudes, behaviors and wisdom from above the results would be very amazing. It is HOW we attempt to make the changes that reflects what we truly believe. I think the reading today in Matthew 7:1-5 helps us keep a firm foundation before we rush into any agenda so that we will listen and present beneficial and helpful feedback when asked.

  38. foreverblessed says:

    ….change the direction our country is headed…
    I was thinking about the disciples, they were convinced Jesus would change the direction theri country was going.
    Israel would be under God’s rule again.
    They were waiting for Jesus to come into action, amybe even when going to the garden Jesus ordered them to take with them swords.

    I am convinced that we should sit still at Jesus’feet, and hear the direction He wants to go with us.
    Otherwise a lot of energy is going into something that God is not intending us to do.

    The disciples didn’t have a clue as to how things would go after Jesus was resuurected, and what did they do?
    They gathered together and prayed, and waited for the Holy Spirit to start things moving.
    Andwhat started; the witnessing of Jesus message of reconciliation.
    And in their lifetime their country was run over by the Romans.
    But the gospel was spreading all over the world, and still is!

  39. christianne says:

    Thank you to foreverblessed who says: June 15, 2010 at 4:21 am…SFDBWV who says: June 15, 2010 at 6:22 am…and nscarimbolo who says: June 15, 2010 at 6:53 am
    I, too, am an infrequent writer on this blog but I must comment here…
    “And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.” —Isaiah 13:11
    And how about getting into Book of Revelation…
    Time spent in discussion and debate is fruitless time…
    Every believer, every self-proclaimed Christian has one obedience to one calling in these times…Prayer, and on one’s knees before a Holy God!
    As Charles Stanley teaches, a valid principle of the faith is OBEY GOD AND LEAVE ALL THE CONSEQUENCES TO HIM.

  40. rod says:

    Again this is a very interesting topic.

    I see that some think we should change the way the country is going, and again that is all about man. Any political movement agenda is all about man and not about God. In 2 Chronicle 7:14 it states if my PEOPLE, well that is Christians, not the sinner man “who are called by my NAME will humble themselves, pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways then I will hear from heaven and forgive of their sins and will heal their land”. It is self inventory that has to be done daily, and with God leading the way things will change, never to late to put him first. And it starts with the TRUE CHRISTIANS.

    Rod

  41. Mcsquare says:

    Rod,

    Your comment that “Any political movement agenda is all about man and not about God.” is exactly my reticence with the Tea Party movement. It is well intentioned, but for a true return to the government our constitution laid out, you cannot leave out God. Separation of church and state was meant to keep government out of religion, but was never meant to keep religion out of the government. Without the moral core that a sound religious background creates, the choices that are made by government officials will be all about man (usually themselves) and not about God.

    The quote I referred to in my last post is from John Adams, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

    The government set up by our Constitution was based on the Old Testament, Exodus 18, and Angelo-Saxon Common Law. God has his fingerprints all over it. Who we need to lead us are men and woman of faith who will pray before writing and voting on legislation; who will be honest with their words and who will have a servant’s heart and not think it beneath them to grab a towel and wash some feet.

    When people go out to a mission field it is to serve God, not for power or position or bragging rights. The people who serve us in the government should have the same heart.

    The only way they will is if Christians decide it is not beneath them to serve their fellowman in government. I see no reason why God cannot call someone into politics the same way He might call someone to be a doctor or nurse.

    Once we loose our national moral fiber, as John Adams said, the government will be inadequate for us. And what will happen then? Benjamin Franklin stated: “Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.”

    We need to actively seek out the candidates that do have a proven moral core and will not sell their souls for votes. I don’t care what party they belong to, the moral standards of the Old and New Testament need to be their guide and God their daily companion.

  42. poohpity says:

    Amen!!!

  43. davids says:

    I have known both Christians and non-Christians on both the right and the left. On the right they have long upheld traditional values. On the left they have fought for the women’s vote and equal rights for all races. God Bless them all!

    When I read a news article online, I sometimes read through the readers’ comments. It can be disturbing to read a self-described Christian reach a conclusion that I completely disagree with. I have to remind myself continually that Christians might hold different opinions about basic issues than I do, but they also love God.

    Yesterday, I read the ODB passage, 1 Peter 2:9 “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” We are a nation that covers the world. I have something in common with the old Christians of Europe and the new Christians of Africa. Those in Asia, in Israel, in Palestine.

    That nation transcends the states of this world and political parties. Within it are people with different views. We need to embrace that.

    David

  44. plumbape says:

    “Tell me, I beg you, what goal are we seeking in all these toils of ours? What is it that we desire? What is our motive in public service? Can our hopes in the court rise higher than to be ‘friends of the emperor’? But how frail, how beset with peril, is that pride! Through what dangers must we climb to a greater danger? And when shall we succeed? But if I chose to become a friend of God, see, I can become one now.
    Confessions of St. Augustine

  45. sgfmba says:

    I’ve enjoyed the dialog and exchange in addressing the topic at hand (and thanks to those who offered supportive words). Some reading these posts understand the dire threat our country faces, understanding that tyranny can come more quickly than most would imagine. Being informed and educated about basic issues—and exposing the lies and falsehood of some of our leaders when they occur—is important. Our nation’s founding documents are a great place to start, but staying abreast of current issues is likewise valuable. And it is vital to vote our values while we still have the opportunity; if we do not do so, that opportunity will at some point be taken away.

    (As an aside, we do not have the benefit of living for several hundred years as those in the pre-Flood days did. If we did, we would have a much better understanding of history and its lessons, and we would have a much clearer picture of what’s going on.)

    Others no doubt have the perception that politics is inexorably dirty, somehow, and that Christians have no business discussing it or expressing an interest in it. If those who hold this view are content to only model a Christ-like life and share the Gospel, then they have my respect and support. I only hope they will also vote their values when the time comes.

    For me, I find it scriptural to desire knowledge and insight, especially as relates to the defense of what is good. And—dare I say—America is good; it is without question the most magnificent society ever created. In its short history, it has brought liberation to a billion people around the world, fed the hungry, clothed the destitute, and presented the Gospel on a global basis. It is our prosperity and Christian heritage—both of which are from God—that has made this possible.

    And this is precisely what is under assault, as talk radio has consistently pointed out. Now, here’s a question. For those who object to talk radio, I have some questions.

    1. Are talk shows such as those conducted by Phyllis Shlafly, Jay Sekulow, Dr. James Dobson et al. wrong? Are these believers out of the will of God when they go on the air and impart information to the rest of us? If not, then why would it not be a good thing to listen to them, if they are doing what God has called them to do?

    2. If you reject talk radio, then from where do you get your information? The broadcast networks? CNN or MSNBC? The New York Times or NPR? With the exception of outlets such as Fox News, there is a consistent (and increasingly brazen) leftist slant to the news. As a believer—or even simply as a wise consumer of information—why would you subject yourself to a distorted view of things?

    3. Is there anyone who would suggest that believers should not bother knowing about current events, history, economics, politics, the culture war, and other topics of interest? If so, I find it unfortunate, but if any will be ignorant…

    Someone who made a recent post mentioned a “savior” figure (Hitler) being promoted in an earlier period of history. Well, much more recently, another savior figure was ardently and slavishly promoted by the so-called mainstream media: our current president. Who warned us about his dubious affiliations and radical leftist beliefs? Talk radio, Fox News, and the Internet. Somehow, the New York Times missed the connections with Bill Ayers, Jeremiah Wright, Tony Rezko, and of course the devotion to Saul Alinsky. (There were much more pressing matters at the time, such as the cost of Sarah Palin’s wardrobe).

    For getting the truth out, I applaud talk radio and the new media. And frankly, I love hearing someone defend America instead of tearing her down. Is it any wonder our troops love the new media as well?

    It’s important to know what’s going on, in my opinion. We are all familiar with Edmund Burke’s quote that for evil to triumph, it’s only necessary for good folks to do…well, nothing—which is what has gone much of the time, unfortunately.

    But here’s another quote I like, from Thomas Jefferson. He wrote:

    I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice will not sleep forever.

    And this, I fear, is a more salient perception than ever before.

    I respectfully submit that it is a wise and noble endeavor to be informed and knowledgeable—not only about scripture and Christian apologetics, which is unquestioningly most important—but also in relevant life areas such as those noted above.

    If talk radio is something with which you are not comfortable (and there was a time when I was not, so I do understand that), then I recommend at least taking care to get reliable information. One of the best sources I know of is AFR.net. This is the website of American Family Radio, which provides, in addition solid Christian programming, an excellent source of news from a Christian perspective.

    And those in the forefront of the battle—the ACLJ (not to be confused with the ACLU), Coral Ridge Ministries (which was the church of the late Dr. D. James Kennedy), the Institution for Creation Research, Eagle Forum, Focus on the Family, and countless others of lesser fame—deserve our support and prayers. Further, those whose values reflect ours should and must be supported by us if they choose to become public servants. Those who would argue that Christians have no business serving in a political role are arguably choosing by default to have us governed by godless tyrants. If such a fate were not bad enough for us, is it fair to subject future generations to it? (And don’t forget the voiceless unborn, too, who might not even make it out of the womb if pro-abort politicians keep this barbarous practice legal and unfettered).

    In sum, I would say: 1) Be informed, aware, and prepared (Prov. 22:3); 2) Vote for people who are most likely to uphold and support our values; 3) Pray for our leaders; 4) Definitely pray for not only revival in America, but in fact, reformation.

    I’d just like to add one thing more. Thank you, Mart, for this blog. I’ve been enormously blessed by Our Daily Bread (which I like to read every day) through the years. But the blog, which I’ve only recently come across, has been an interesting forum of varied opinions, which is interesting and useful. I appreciate your allowing diversity of thought and the opportunity for believers to express themselves. God bless you and RBC, as well as those who contribute to this wonderful site.

  46. foreverblessed says:

    There are 3 levels of our being:
    -the first one: I determine what I do, I do not need God
    Secondlevel: I determine what I do, but ask God for help
    Third level: I desire to know God’s will, I give my will to God, and He directs my steps.

    This is a growing process, I was in stage 2 most of my life, having been born in a christian family, holding to the values of the bible, following its rules. And asked God to help me keep the law.
    That was very good.
    But a more excellent way is to totally give yourself over to God!

    So how do you go about your country then:
    You give all your worries, your concern about how things are to God, in prayer you lay it before God.
    Give all your worries to Jesus.
    Come to rest in Him.
    And then wait for God to give you direction what to do, maybe it is going into politics, or maybe it is an order to stay inside your house, and start a prayer life.
    And who says that you are idly standing by? yYu are part of the army of the Most High.

  47. foreverblessed says:

    Having a prayer life, and yet be politically active, it is possible.
    Read the story of Rees Howell, about 100 years ago, a fellow from Wales GB.
    He gave himself over to God, and in the beginning of his ministry, God gave him the command to start a prayer group. And God told Him to wait for the inspriration from the Holy Spirit what to pray for:
    It was for the widows in India, they started praying for them, and after a few months the laws were changed in India, it was ordered that widows got a pension from the government.
    Who says we are idly standing by? God can move any people to do His will, whether they are christian or totally heathen.

    I have this example of Rees Howell, because I myself have no example of how I did (or through prayers) move mountains in my country. (And my country is leaving its traditional bible values already a long time.)
    To me God has said: I want you to come to me, and get to know me better,
    “the banner over me is love” Song of Solomon 2:4
    That I will grow in knowing just How much and How great God’s love is for me.
    I am still much too much living according to the values and rules of the bible, and thereby also being judgmental about people who break the laws. (I slowly grow into that realisation).
    Now: growing into intimacy with my loving God.

  48. foreverblessed says:

    One more thing: About being informed. We should not be ignorant.
    Not being an american and viewing foxnews gives a very strange feeling to me. They give the news in such a way, that one political party is shown as being good, and the other as being the bad, While both of them have good sides and bad sides.
    They are not an independent news agency. Do a search into that: who owns this agency, what is his agenda, where does he get his mony from. And also look with other eyes how people are being portrayed, the way things are said about people from the democratic party, is it respectfull, unbiased, just the same way as people from the conservative party are being portrayed. Have a good look into that, try to look with eyes of an outsider.

    America is not a good country, sorry, it is not the worst either, it is one of the best in having freedom. But the this freedom is limited, you are not aware of how big your financial debt is, how much money is being loaned to you by countries outside of the US.
    Did you see the documantary a few years ago:
    “The day the dollar fell”
    (it was not the fall of the dollar, but the fall of the mortgage bussiness that brought about the crisis)
    And that was during the time the conservative party was ruling your country.

    We are citizens of the Kingdom of the Most High.
    He can move mountains, and He does it through our prayers. But He must be our Lord. Be independent from earthly parties.

  49. foreverblessed says:

    Sorry for going on, while you are still asleep, I keep on talking.
    But I want to go on where David left, june 16 5.45 pm
    1 Peter 2:9
    God is being busy preparing His Bride, Ephesisians 5:27
    Without spot or wrinkle.
    The bride is all over the world, yes, yes!

    (and I liked Augustines comment very much, he is one of the founding fathers of the church)

  50. Ted M. Gossard says:

    Mart, Great post. I find talk radio left, or as it is predominantly right, worse than a waste of time. I don’t want to pick up their spirit. Doesn’t Proverbs warn us to avoid angry people lest we become like them. And politics can get in the way of our unity in Jesus.

    That being said, Christians should agree to disagree. It is a struggle, because I personally am not happy with much of the politics here in the United States. And I often disagree with my brothers and sisters in Jesus. But are we letting that divide us? No. Our unity in Jesus should help us overcome in love all such differences.

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