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The Value of a Person

What did Jesus mean when he said that “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27)? Could people be more important than the laws of God?

The question is similar to the business-related question we’ve been discussing the last couple of days: Are people and relationships more important than process and products?

On one hand the question doesn’t make sense. As many of you have already noted,  business (including non-profits, and church ministries) without good process and product isn’t likely to survive—either for the good of its owner(s), its employees, or its customers.

In a similar way people or relationships that break the moral laws of God will be broken by them.

So then, why ask whether people and relationships are more important than process, products, and even the laws of God?

All are essential. Yet as Jesus makes clear in his comment about the Sabbath, even among essentials, some things are more important than others. From God’s point of view, just as people were not made for the Sabbath, people were not made for work. On the contrary, work and rest were both made for people—who in God’s eyes are also worth dying for.

Even if employees need to be let go because of a bad job fit, poor performance, or company efficiencies, the persons themselves are far more valuable than all of the assets of that company–in the eyes of those who love them.

Even if the person in view breaks all of the laws of   society,  their real worth, in the eyes of God, is far greater than the laws they have broken.

If that weren’t the case. Jesus would never have allowed himself to be nailed to a Roman Cross…even for the criminal who was crucified at his side.

The Face of Purim

Who can really understand the cost of such redemption? Who can estimate the exchange of currency that is behind the words, “You will be with me in Paradise”… and for today, and tomorrow, “I will never leave you or forsake you.” (Luke 23:43; Hebrews 13:5).

I wonder how wide our eyes would get if we could see the price tag Jesus puts on the back of the illegal alien, the criminal, or the expendable worker we are tempted to dehumanize and call worthless…

Maybe that price tag is one reason the Apostle Paul urges first century slaves, owners, church elders, members, and anyone who has found identity, dignity, and security in being loved by Christ, to start treasuring… rather than trashing one another.


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75 Responses to “The Value of a Person”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Mart your analogy of the work place, management, and employees set to life, God and people,….is thought provoking.

    However, much of the worlds management does not do a good job at managing nor are they a fair representation of God.

    Many times the people who get let go or layed off, are not done so for the betterment of the company nor by their work, but by a process of favoritism or other self serving goals.

    Church, like the work place, has some people who work hard and others who ride someones elses efforts. Jesus took great length in explaining that….Yet all of the laborors are included in the plan of salvation…everyone gets paid the same no matter how late they join the labor pool.

    But, while the harder working laborors in Gods work place will be rewarded differently than thoes who did less, both share in the important benifit of forgiveness and salvation….kind of like a bonus system.

    God, loves man…loves….Who among us has never loved someone even though they don’t listen, even though they rebel, even though they seem bent on doing things the hard way or contrary to wisdom and common sense?

    Frustrating as it may be if we truely love them, we are patient and want the best for them, and most importantly never give up on them nor stop loving them…no matter how often we may be hurt by them.

    This is how God loves us, like a good Father. or friend, who is willing to do whatever it takes to fix all the broken things in our lives, even throughout all of eternity.

    Steve

  2. Mart De Haan says:

    Steve, you’re right. And the messiness of such unfairness not only brings out the worst in us… but also gives us reason to believe that what our Lord asks of us makes no sense… unless he really is with us… to do in us… the work that only he can do.

  3. marma says:

    Mart, you said, “Even if employees need to be let go because of a bad job fit, poor performance, or company efficiencies, the persons themselves are far more valuable than all of the assets of that company–in the eyes of those who love them.”

    That reminded me of the C.S. Lewis quote from Weight of Glory: But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit…no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption. And our charity must be real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinners–no mere tolerance…”

    I get concerned when American values supplant the Christian ones, when we don’t show the love and concern for people of all walks of life, and their need of Christ.

    Sometimes our American values align with the Word of God, other times they do not, and the biblical values should be the measuring stick for the American ones.

  4. IsOn says:

    God is good all the time. Thanks for the sharing. I’ve been following your blog for a couple of months already and am so blessed by both the article and the discussion in the comments section. God bless you and your team.

  5. SFDBWV says:

    Oh my my, Mart you said a mouthful when you said “but also gives us reason to beleve that what our Lord asks of us makes no sense…Unless”

    Our problem is that our mind cannot understand God’s vision. So it is a matter of whoes sense is percieved.

    How can we look upon a cancer ridden child, and make sense of why God would allow such a thing? How can we look upon the crippled, lame and helpless, and make sense out of why God doesn’t heal them?

    It is because it is left to us to have faith, trust and patience…even unto death.

    To care for all thoes whom God has given us to care for, without prejudice, with only love as our guide.

    Our faith pleases God. His love, our love, heals us all in a way we can only partialy understand for now.

    When I think of you first question concerning for whom the sabbath was made. It takes me to Genesis, where sabbath was first mentioned…God worked for 6 days then rested on the 7th.

    Was it because God needed to rest? Or was it to give us an example for which He wanted us to follow? Then through mans stuborness later a law, He knew we would break?

    Here in Genesis we get a peek at the existance of the Triune Spirit of God.

    God gives man work right away, the naming of all creation, then within a conversation between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they agree that it is not good for man to be alone…man needed help.

    In order for man to mature into the person God wants him to be or become, he also needs help…

    So as we give Christ the reins of our life and the control of our hearts, He is able to mold us into whom He wants us to be, through all means neccessary…Through trials tribulations and….even unto death.

    Sometimes through it all, we need to rest….Sabbath is a day or season of rest. Neccessary to accomplishing the goal or goals God has set us on. A rest period for our wellbeing.

    Steve

  6. rokdude5 says:

    For the past few months Ive been trying to keep Sundays as a day rest and reflection and avoid even going to the stores.

    Yet, after a long hunt for finding someone to repair my dad’s old grandfather clock, I finally found a kind Christian gentleman who was willing to come a long way to my home in order to repair the clock. However, he was only willing to come only when his store is not opened. The only time was Sunday afternoon because he, too, wanted to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest. The clock repairer is a Seventh Day Adventist. I hope that the Lord is pleased my actions.

    Back to the topic on hand, for a lot of us, we can easily say law breakers should be spared the most severe harshest punishment but we are not walking in the shoes of the victims who have been raped or murdered. What about those who are in the military or law enforcement?

    Though answers are easily contrived, there are not necessarily just as easily, carried out. RJ

  7. bubbles says:

    At 4:30 this morning, I was awake. Many thoughts were running through my mind. One thing the Lord kept reminding me was that He loved me. This kind of love when thought about is beyond comprehension.

    When others mistreat us or make unkind comments that make the heart ache, remembering His perfect love helps us realize that what others may do/say to us really don’t matter. His love is perfect.

    Remembering He loves those who are difficult should really help our attitudes change towards them. They may be the ones who need to seee godly love more than anyone.

  8. poohpity says:

    I wish Mart, that it is as easily done as said, “to start treasuring… rather than trashing one another.” I have tried so hard to treasure others but I have to say that it is not so easy for me to do that sometimes it is a long process that is not successful. I think that is why it is so awe inspiring the way the Lord does things that are way, way beyond my human nature. Frankly I do not understand how He does it other than Him being God, far beyond my human reasoning or understanding. It is more sometimes than I can even comprehend just with looking at the things I have done, yet He still loves me. Being that valuable for someone to die for my wrongs knowing that I will never be without sin. I really do not understand how much value God places on us and I doubt I ever will.

    It is easy to treat someone who is kind and gentle as a treasure but those who do everything they can do to harm others, God also treasures us too. I say us because we harm others by being judgmental and critical sometimes emotional harm is worse than physical harm. Or those who are self righteous who think of themselves better than others, gee I find myself in so much that is not pleasing to God and Thank God that Jesus Christ has taken it upon Himself to cover our faults when we in no way, no how deserve the value placed on us by God.

  9. Sakoieta says:

    In Mohawk and Haudenosaunee culture the emphasis has always been on the relationship between the Creator and the human beings. We were instructed by him and enlightened teachers that we should always value a person and their gifts even to the next seven generations. In this way no one is ever expendable. We struggle with the dominant culture where people are placed secondary to money and wealth in ways the Creator never intended. Our ceremonies of Thanksgiving to the Creator are done out of thankfulness for his bounty to us of the gifts of the earth. In these ceremonies we need the people. We need the singers. We need the dancers. We need the speakers. We need the men to fulfill their roles and responsibilities. We need the women to look after their responsibilities. We need all the teenagers so we can pass our lifestyle on to them. We need all the little babies so our nations will continue to grow and prosper. To us even someone who has offended or broken our laws is needed so we work restoratively with them. In our way when someone offends we term it as “He acts like he has no relatives”. As such if he or she has offended they need to follow out system of justice which includes responsibility, restitution, reconciliation and restoration. If a person say were to steal, doesn’t matter if it’s five cents or five million. He is a thief until it is paid back and then he is restored to the community, clan, family and nation. White man’s laws does away with justice and makes it a punishing game arguing whether the offender should be charged with petty theft, theft under a thousand, grand theft, etc. and then they only determine how do we punish him, little of that justice system has to do with restoration. That is why we rteally wonder sometimes if the White people’s system is really based on teachings of God as much as he proclaims them to be. We don’t see it nor do we find integrity or justice in it. It throws people away with no hope of them ever being restored ever again. Jesus would make a good Indian because he was Indigenous. He was a member of a tribe. He was a member of a marginalized people. He spoke his native tongue. He practiced his ceremonies going into the temple “as was his custom”. He would readily approve of our justice system as Native people where we throw no one away, rather than support the “just us” system of the dominant society where everyone is expendable and few are ever restored.

  10. BruceC says:

    Very interesting Mart. It made me think of the woman caught “in the act of adultery”. Which some Bible teachers believe was setup; made to entrap Jesus.
    Anyway Jesus asked the crowd ” Whichever one among you is without sin; let him cast the first stone.” Then he told the woman to go and sin no more; and that He did not condemn her either. I seems to me that Jesus was more interested in her welfare than in carrying out the letter of the law and having her stoned.
    All of us deserve condemnation under the law. But in Christ we are free and are forgiven; for noone can keep the law.
    When I was a cop I had to work many Sundays, Saturdays, holidays, etc. I don’t think God condemned me; nor do I think it displeased Him.

    BruceC

  11. Regina says:

    Good Afternoon All,

    Just wanted to stop by and say hello. Will comment on this blog topic later.

    Steve – Thanks for the free website info.

    Mart – I just noticed that the BTA blog site looks like a den with a comfy chair, a book and a carpeted floor where we type our comments! I love it! :-)

    Blessings,

  12. Oluwatunmise says:

    Thank God for His wisdom in your lives. I pray God will rekindle His fire burning in you.

  13. saled says:

    I love the C.S. Lewis quote given by marma. It will be a help in learning to treasure others rather than trashing them.

    In Gordon MacDonald’s book “Ordering Your Private World”, he writes about the idea that the sabbath was meant for reflection, and rokdude5 mentioned that he tries to put the emphasis on rest and reflection. MacDonald mentions that God looked at what He had created and said that it was good. Sometimes when I take time to stop and look at how I am spending my time, I can not say that it is good. But the act of reflection puts me way ahead of where I used to be.

    “Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.” God knew how prone man would be to running full tilt all the time and never stopping to consider the deeper things of life. At least, that is my experience. Also, worship is so easily pushed aside by the cares of life. Taking a day to consider our Creator may just lead to a real worship experience, in church or out, on Sunday, or one of the other six.

    This analogy to Mart’s “work was made for man and not man for work” makes sense to me. Interesting that so many of us have given ourselves to work and forgotten the sabbath!

  14. Pat in CT says:

    “What did Jesus mean when he said that “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath”.” I go back to the origin, and the original instructions. God created, he worked for 6 days, and then he rested. The commandment about the Sabbath is all about rest; neither you, your family, your servants, or your animals should work, they are all to rest. God didn’t say to assemble or go to church, or go do good deeds, it was entirely about rest. They were wandering in the wilderness, so what was this for them? It was wonderful, and much needed. They got a day off from building and tending fires and cooking too! It was also an opportunity to see if they’d obey or not, and it gave them time to stop and think instead of do, do, do. What Jesus meant is that the Sabbath is to serve man, not that man is to serve the Sabbath. Rest, restore, release from bondage, these are the good works Jesus did on the Sabbath. The weekly Sabbath pictures the ultimate Sabbath that we look forward to entering; when our Lord will return and boot out the ruler of this world, who tries his best to keep us in bondage to sin, and all the nastiness that goes with it. The Sabbath is for man – rest and release, and to focus on the one who made this possible for us.

  15. marma says:

    The law is good and work is good; both were given by God. However, neither is our Lord; our Lord is a person who worked just like his Father (John 5:17,) as is evidenced throughout the Gospels, and even now as he makes intercession for us as our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14). Our Lord fulfilled all the law as well and redeemed us from the law (Gal 4:4-6).

    If we are to serve any, it is Christ who we serve.

    Do we still keep laws? Yes. Admittedly, human law systems are flawed, but they serve an important purpose.

    Do we still work as well as mark a time of rest and meeting together with other Christians? Yes. We need those things–work, rest, fellowship–to survive in this world. We need to work to meet our basic physical, mental, and emotional health needs. However, our Father knows we can’t be working all the time without burning out, can’t maintain a healthy walk or grow without the fellowship of other believers.

    The world in which we live has many misplaced priorities and so having a proper balance with those things can be quite a challenge. Sometimes, for a season, we may be required to alter the balance; we also need to know when it is enough.

    So we follow our Lord, and listen. He is faithful.

  16. marma says:

    “Even if the person in view breaks all of the laws of society, their real worth, in the eyes of God, is far greater than the laws they have broken.

    “If that weren’t the case. Jesus would never have allowed himself to be nailed to a Roman Cross…even for the criminal who was crucified at his side.” (Mart)

    I agree with Mart in that laws are important, but people are more important. Jesus said “But go ye and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Matt 9:13) In our zeal to pursue justice in our society we sometimes forget what our priority should be as Christ’s followers.

  17. Laus says:

    Yes. Of course. Sabbath is made for man and man is not made for sabbath.Here I would like to see the meaning of this statement made by Jesus with the context in which He said this statement.

    Number one : The disciples and Jesus were going through grain fields and as they walked along, His disciples began picking few heads of grains. This is a least important thing, but botheres pharisees.

    Number two : About the acuuser. Here we see this accuse is made by pharisees. The pharisees are people who know the law very well, they do their part in least important things and leave the main part of the law. In other way, for outsiders they show themselves as thruthful people keeping the law but not doing as per the law.

    Considering the above two points, we message Jesus wanted to say is unlike pharisees, you should completely obey God’s words.

    The system and procedures are also important. However, keeping only system and procedures is not sufficient.

    Rather than focusing on least important things, our focus should be on our purpose.

  18. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Mart stated: “I wonder how wide our eyes would get if we could see the price tag Jesus puts on the back of the illegal alien, the criminal, or the expendable worker we are tempted to dehumanize and call worthless…

    Maybe that price tag is one reason the Apostle Paul urges first century slaves, owners, church elders, members, and anyone who has found identity, dignity, and security in being loved by Christ, to start treasuring… rather than trashing one another.”

    And it brought to mind this ODB devotional that I’d read this weekend…

    What’s It All About?

    Read: Romans 9:1-5

    Romans 9:3, NLT
    for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them.

    Recently I was in a crowded shop- ping area when I saw a woman plowing her way through the crowd. What intrigued me was the message on her T-shirt, which read in bold capital letters, IT’S ALL ABOUT ME. Her actions reinforced the words on her shirt.

    I’m afraid she’s not alone. That message is declared by so many men and women today that it could be the motto of our modern world. For followers of Christ, however, that statement simply is not true. It is not all about us—it’s all about Jesus Christ and others.

    The apostle Paul certainly felt the weight of this reality. He was so concerned that his fellow Israelites would know Christ that he said, “I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh” (Rom. 9:3). That is a remarkable statement! Far from thinking it was all about himself, Paul affirmed that he would willingly exchange his eternity for theirs.

    Paul’s teaching is a refreshing reminder of self-sacrifice in a challenging world that is destructively self-centered. The question we must ask is: Is it all about me? Or is our life about Jesus Christ and the people He came to reach?

    Think about it. What’s it all about?

    Others, Lord, yes others,
    May this my motto be.
    Help me to live for others
    That I may live for Thee. —Meigs

    Our lives should be marked by love for Christ and others—not obsession with self.

    This devotional really blessed me; it’s a wonderful reminder of the fact that we should strive (daily) to love our neighbor the way Jesus loves us. Awesome blog topic, Mart.

    Blessings,

  19. Mart De Haan says:

    poohpity, I agree, our natural inclination is to repay help for help and harm for harm. Seems to be one more reason for us to pray again and again for our Lord to mercifully and graciously do in us what only he can do.

  20. xrgarza says:

    Good morning:

    “What did Jesus mean when he said “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27)? ”

    I have heard various thoughts on this, I for one believe that He knew that it is a natural instinct for man to be a workaholic, and He wanted to make sure that we would take the initiative to get some rest.

    “Could people be more important than the laws of God”?
    Absolutely! He created people first, and then the law for mans safety and protection. It wasn’t the other way around.

    “Are people and relationships more important than process and products?”

    Well in the workplace they really should be, but it is quite obvious that they are not.

    During my years with the Intel Corporation I found it quite interesting that not only was the company successful because of its products, but how it treated its employees.

    When I was first hired, I was give like seven weeks of paid time off for the first year and by the end of my fifth year I had accumulated an additional two weeks. In addition to that every seven years it was mandatory that we take a minimum of an eight-week fully compensated sabbatical. I was able to take three months off when my children graduated from hi-school what a blessing!

    In the trucking industry that I am currently in, it’s a different world, if you are not working seven to ten days or three months straight, you are not doing your job and you are out of there.

    I was laid off two weeks ago due to lack of work I was offered employment by two employers yesterday, I’ve been struggling with which one to take. They both pay about the same, one will get me home every night, and the other tells me that I will be home every seven to ten days. But after reading this blog, it is obvious that I need to take the one that will get me home on a daily basis.

    Thank you Mart, for contributing to the answer that I have been praying and seeking for.

    Rocky

  21. BruceC says:

    Listened to a teaching on the Sabbath last night and it was very thought provoking. The Sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday as some believe and was intended to honor God for His creative work. The Jews were commanded to rest. But this rest was to “rest” in Him.
    We honor Christ on Sunday worship because of His redemptive work. There is not an awful lot about God’s creative work in Scripture; but there is tons about His redemptive work all through the OT and NT. Makes no difference to me what day a person worships on or rests in God; Saturday or Sunday. God did not rest because He was tired; He rested because creation was finished. In the same way; Christ said “It is finished” from the cross because His redemptive work was finished. He healed many on the Sabbath because it was made for man to rest in Him and spend his time reflecting on God’s work. Because we are under grace it is no longer tabboo to cook a meal for a family on Sunday or Saturday, or drive to visit a sick friend, etc. So by His example Christ placed people above the Sabbath. I hope I don’t sound confusing.

    BruceC

  22. jimgroberts says:

    Ask a mother the value of her child whether it is her only child or not. She created that child and it is a part of her.
    God created us and made us in His image. We are far more than slaves or servants. We are sons, we are irreplaceable.
    That is why He was more than willing to sacrifice His only begotten Son.
    There is NO value you can place put on this. The problem is “Do we value our creator”.
    Does a child value its mother or father.
    These days not and that is why Gods commandment stands “Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you.”

  23. Jeffrey says:

    When I was blessed with a job, I would ask God to help me remember that people are the most important thing. That those I worked with were more important than the job at hand, or products being produced. (Thankfully I was always able to get the job done and be kind (loving) to others at the same time.)

    God comes first, other people second, then everything else. The 10 commandments (God’s laws) are based on love and respect for God and for our neighbors. If we love God and love our neighbor, keeping these commandments should be a natural reflection of our love.

  24. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    Sakoieta – I want to speak to your comment, “White man’s laws does away with justice and makes it a punishing game arguing whether the offender should be charged with petty theft, theft under a thousand, grand theft, etc. and then they only determine how do we punish him, little of that justice system has to do with restoration.”

    Actually, our justice system does offer opportunity for some offenders to earn their way back into society by completing certain programs. My church offers a program (T.O.R.I.-Texas Offenders Re-Intry Initiative) for ex-offenders. Because there are different types of offenders (e.g. thieves, murderers, rapists, etc.), there are different types of punishments.

    Normally, the ex-offender programs are rigorous and the offender has to accomplish certain goals and meet specific guidelines in order to graduate from the program (e.g. no illegal drugs, no alcohol, no criminal behavior, earning passing grades in high school or college course work, etc.) depending on the crime committed.

    If someone has been found guilty of murder, with overwhelming evidence, it would be dangerous (in any country) to allow that person to continuing living in society. So, as punishment for the crime, he/she has to spend a certain amount of time in jail/prison. Sometimes, depending on the nature or heinousness of the murder, the person may be sentenced to death in this country (*capital punishment varies depending on the state).

    Don’t get me wrong, our justice system does have it’s flaws, but for the most part it works. This country is a lot safer to live in with it than it would be without it. What happened in New Orleans (& other cities), Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina is a stark reminder of why we need government, laws, a military, law enforcement officials, etc., and why people need to be punished (varying levels) for the crimes that they commit.

    Just sharing my point of view.

    Blessings,

  25. pegramsdell says:

    Awesome Rocky. Congratulations on the job. Good choice, btw…lol

  26. Sakoieta says:

    Yes, Regina, and I understand that fully because that is the system your ancestors brought with you from across the waters when they came to this land that had no jails or prisons. We as Mohawk people have a very complex system of discipline and accountability in our communities that I believe is more in line with the topic being discussed than the dominant society’s justice system. In our system when someone offends we do not look for punishment. We look at what was lacking in that person’s upbringing that,as a communal person, had him act without accountability for the community or act like he had “no relatives”. In assessing a person like that we then set up a process where we can discipline a person by discipling him in areas where he was lacking abilities to relate or skills necessary for being a safe member of a community. I worked for many years in the justice system as a Native Elder in the prisons and saw this way work where the dominant system released people back onto the street with new skills of how to commit the same or worse crimes with less chance of getting caught because they were only sent to jail to be punished. Rehabilitation was only a catch word to say they did their time. I believe if we asked Jesus what he would favor he would not favor the justice system the dominant society has today because it punishes but does little for restoration. Where as I still see our system of restorative justice as a more humaine, true justice system that the Creator would honor because it is based in love for fellow man, accountability to the Creator, self, clan, family, community, nation and world.

  27. foreverblessed says:

    Thank you all for your comments, I want to add some more about the command of the sabbath rest.
    God rested on the 7th day, in this He already pointed out to the rest that we would have through faith in Christ Jesus. Jesus is our Sabbath rest. That is why Jesus said that the sabbath was for man, Jesus came so that we could have rest from our own works: we would die to our old man, and would live in Him. Galatians 2:20
    The scriptures explaining this are: Hebrews 4, Colossians 2, Galatians 3 and 4, and others
    Jesus did not come to bring us back to the law, He came to reconcile us to the Father. It is all about man being found by God, and given His life in us, through faith in Jesus Christ.
    When we live in faith in Jesus, we are always in the Sabbath, we are in it, because we are in Him.
    So rest from your own works, and do the works the Father planned ahead for us to do (Eph 2:8-10), and that is about people, bringing people back to the Father.
    Resting physically is always good. But these are things of the earth, as Colossians 2:8,20 and Gal 4:3 says: basic principles of the world. Things of matter, the physical body we have is matter, so it is good to rest, but not as a sacred day to keep holy, it is Jesus we keep holy.

    To support what Bubbles wrote on aug 11, 1.54 pm: But Christ’s love compels us…
    2 Corinthians 5:14-6:2
    It is so good to have first this love in our hearts, we are His children, He loves us, we are His!
    And that is why we have a ministry of reconciliation, to bring others to Him too.
    So it is all about bringing people back to God,sorry, I am repeating myself, but as I was keeping the sabbath from sunset to sunset when I was younger, I sort of feel compelled to write about it, not to lose time on the basic principles of the world any longer, but to go on, what Jesus started, He died for us, so we could live, and He wants all man to be saved 1 Timothy 2:4

  28. poohpity says:

    Amen, Mart. Then we are not able to boast because we realize that it is Jesus working through us to really show how much value is placed on people through His eyes and heart. To do those things that are far against our human nature.

  29. foreverblessed says:

    So Pooh, how can you say that so well, in just a few sentences what I want to say?
    About prisoners, I agree Sakoieta that the prisoners need attention, not just punishment. (but that costs a lot of money, there was a program in our country for criminal youth, it worked very well, to get them back in society, but it was stopped, because it did cost a lot of money, and politiciens did not want to spent it on them any more).
    There is a video on you tube of Corrie ten Boom, called, the door to repentance, in it is described that she goes to prisons, and meets criminals.
    “a burden for souls” as she calls it, a job that is given to us by Jesus Himself, He does the work in us, and she describes how He does the work through her, and some criminals are turned to Jesus. One criminal is so saved by Christ, and the first thing he does, he asks Corrie, “do you have another 5 minutes” Yes say Corrie, why, in the next corridor there is a criminal who is in real darkness, he needs Jesus too. And so Corrie goes to that man, and he also accepts Jesus. This man, very new in Christ already had a burden for another soul!

  30. foreverblessed says:

    About the sabbath, when Corrie goes to that criminal in the prison, she prays: O Lord, I cannot do this. And God answers her: Good, then I can do it through you.
    The Sabbath is resting from our own works, Hebrews 4:10:” for anyone who enters that God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.”
    So that God can do His work through us, like Corrie did. And the next thing she describes is how the prisoner accepts Jesus by her talking with him, as she had been a prisoner too, and she brings him to Jesus.

  31. foreverblessed says:

    Regina asked in the last post a prayer for Lisa, who is fed up with life, that is having a heart for her soul! I will pray for her too. My brother-in-law was suicidal too, he is internalised now, and is doing better, he even thinks he can go home, while he is still addicted to alcohol, and hash. He still needs prayer. Thanks.

  32. Linda M. Smith says:

    Hello fellows in Christ! I say a most hearty “Amen!” to what you all have contributed on this subject. And, Mart, I thank God for sharing your heart on a topic much misunderstood by so many of us. Grateful to be able to partake in fellowship with other “Body Parts”, and humbly so ~ Shalom! Linda

  33. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Wow, foreverblessed, you remembered Lisa! :-) Thank you so much for praying for her! I was so concerned about her. She told me that she’s doing and feeling much better now. She has four children ages 17 to 12 (the 12 year olds are twins), and her ex-husband needs to be born-again (she’s still financially dependent on him and he withholds money to exert control). My husband needs to be born-again too, but that’s another heart-to-heart for another day. I told Lisa that the Lord would not put more on her than she could bear. And my Pastor said that very thing during his sermon on last Sunday! …that the Lord would not put more on us than we can bear.

    We both attend an *AWESOME* church, and (I don’t know if I can speak for her) it’s like an “umbilical cord connection” between me and LORD. That ministry literally saved my life. Lisa received strength from the Lord via our prayers, and now she has her joy back. She’s been walking with the Lord for awhile now, so I know she knows that persecution is a part of the process of spiritual growth (2 Tim. 3:12; Ps. 34:19). And when we put our trust in the LORD, He will give us a special grace to endure whatever situation we may find ourselves in (Prov. 3:5-6).

    Also want to thank you, foreverblessed, for the information you’ve shared about the life/ministry of Corrie ten Boom. I learned of her AWESOME life and testimony when I was in my late teens/twenties(?)…was very young when I read her book, “The Hiding Place.” I SO admired the generosity, humility and courage of her family. Was SO inspired by her love, faith and commitment to our Lord and to preaching the gospel. I think about her on occasion and she’s in heaven now!:-)

    Blessings,

  34. Regina says:

    Sakoieta – Like foreverblessed, I agree with you too that prisoners need attention and not just punishment, but re-entry programs for ex-offenders are very expensive in this country too. Some offenders are fortunate enough to have an opportunity to complete such a program; some start the program, but don’t complete it. For those who commit a heinous or extremely cruel crime (or crimes), they’re not offered an opportunity to complete a self-help program. They’re sent to prison or placed on death row.

    Mentoring programs are even more scarce for adults. Our government is still trying to find funds to pay for school meals for indigent children. Like foreverblessed said, for those types of programs, our government officials would ask, “Who’s going to pay for it?”

    Again, our government and justice system is not the best, but I thank God that what’s going on in this world (now) is not how it’s going to be forever. As a child of God, I’m “looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Hebrews 11:10,NIV).

    Question: What is done when someone in your culture/tribe cannot be rehabilitated?

    Blessings,

  35. Regina says:

    Oh, foreverblessed, I’ll remember your brother-in-law in prayer tonight.

    Blessings,

  36. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Hi everyone!

    I have been busy for the last two days and have got behind on the daily comments, but have a day off today and have just spent three hours catching up.
    Everyone has made such good points, but I am struck by two in particular.
    Steve’s and Sakoieta’s
    Steve has such a great understanding of Scripture and sees Gods point of view in all things. I know Steve loves nature and sees God in all creation.

    Sakoieta comes to it from a different way and see creation and God as one. The Mohawk culture aligns itself with nature and it’s creator and lives in harmony with it, that is why everyone tries to live in harmony with and be accountable to each other.
    I am sure Sakoieta that even in Mohawk society there must be times when someone behaves so badly and fails to reconcile themselves that they have to be expelled
    from the tribe.
    You said “Jesus would make a good Indian because he was Indigenous. He was a member of a tribe. He was a member of a marginalized people. He spoke his native tongue. He practiced his ceremonies going into the temple “as was his custom”.”
    The thought struck me as I read this that The Mohawk would also make a good deciple of Jesus because The Creator God has shown them how to live by His natural laws and by what is good for man and God.

    I can fully undertand what it must be like to be invaded by a corrupt culture that then tries to tell you it has the answers to creation and how to live while doing just the opposite in the way it treats its own people and yours, when the Native American already knew the creator God and lived by His Natural laws.

    But, Steve, myself and others here have discovered, it is only in Jesus that we find total fulfilment in this life. He is the Creator God!

    Bob

  37. SFDBWV says:

    Ezekiel 34:11 “For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.”

    What is the value of a person?

    Here explained openly as well as hidden in the pages of the Christian Bible, is the nature of God and the mystery of His plans, revealed.

    There are many religions in the world, as it was God Himself who wrote eternity on the hearts of mankind.

    Doing so, so that wise men would seek to know Him.

    In the beginning God created man, many religions tell their story of this event, but only the Hebrew Torah is an actual representation of the events.

    The people Israel chosen for a purpose, and used by God in order to re-aquaint mankind with Himself, and through His Prophet Moses tell the true story of creation, the world wide flood and the dispersment of all mankind.

    All lost sheep, spread all over the world. Here in Ezekiel 34:11 God plainly says, He Himself will seek out His sheep.

    Again through the people God chose, He created a system of sacrificial worship, and through these same people He became the sacrifice for all of His lost sheep. He Himself…

    What is the value of a person….To God, any person is valued above Himself, so that He would do all He can in order to save them from eternal destruction, and reunite them with Himself.

    The Full true story of God and His relationship with man, can be found there within the pages of scripture. Once again God Himself will aid you in understanding His Word, by giving you His Holy Spirit in order to guide you to all Truth.

    Choose Jesus Christ as your Lord and He will open your heart and eyes.

    What is your value? Christ paid your price, His free gift to you is eternal life and peace, with Him.

    Steve

  38. ckapac says:

    First let me say hi! I have been reading this blog for about a year! I have enjoyed reading your comments!
    Bob in Cornwall I have appreciated your comments and openness with your heart. Your vulnerability warms my compassion!

    Sakoieta : Thank you for your wisdom combined with your faith. It has drawn me to respond! Thank you!!! What a concept -act like he had no relatives- Wow! I thank the Father for such a body as He has blessed us with!

    I appreciate the wisdom,

    blessings to all, precious ones!!!

    Karen

  39. rxman says:

    Living by the Spirit. That is a question I have been struggling with recently. Do I live by the Law or Laws or do I live by the Spirit.

    I seems easier to live by laws such as “keep the sabbath”, etc. I don’t have to think much and the command is right there in front of me. Living by the Spirit is much harder. I need to constantly stay in “touch” with Him or I lose the communication on what He wants me to do.

    This is not to say that I won’t obey the laws by living by the Spirit. It just means that He will direct me when the process is more important or when the person is more important (balance).

    Wondering what anyone thinks.

  40. SFDBWV says:

    rxman, Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after flesh, but after the Spirit.”
    :2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    :14 ” For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

    When we live a life of giving up self, for the needs of others, when we love others as much or more than ourselves, we find we are breaking neither God’s laws nor man’s….Living by the Spirit of love.

    Steve

  41. Helmet says:

    Just yesterday we been talking with a couple of friends about what is more important in a family conflict, the justice or the relation, or the person.

    If justice would be the must important then Jesus would never died in the cross.

    So, love acomplish the justice, when for love I can give up the proud of winning conflict. And also do what a have to, instead being rebell. =º)

    Hey, where is pooh??
    Godd morning Mart, good morning Steve.

  42. Helmet says:

    sorry, where u red ‘do what a have to’ please read ‘do what I have to’

  43. poohpity says:

    Helmet, I am here, good to hear from across the border. Hope all is well with you and your family. You are valued and missed.

  44. foreverblessed says:

    Good morning Helmet, in relation I have the hardest time in dying to my old man, not wanting to be right, not wanting to live in the hurt, but at the same time I can ask GOd to fill me with His life His love. His life is so much better then my old man.

  45. foreverblessed says:

    Rxman, while reading your comment I was thinking, that is exactly the same as I have been struggling with. It is so much easier to live by a set of rules.
    But to live in the Spirit, what does it mean?
    What I learned up to now, is that it means that I give myself over to God/Jesus, and
    God does not want us to give ourselves without us knowing Him.

    Instead of finding out what God wants me to do, I now search for who He is, and He has showed Himself to us in Jesus.
    And what does He show, how much He loves me. So much, I try to concentrate on that during the day.

    Last week, when I woke up early in the morning, I had to go to the toilet, and as I put my feet on the ground. I was thinking: I trust the ground to carry me, I do not for one moment doubt wheather it will hold me. Should I not trust the One who made the ground much much more. Yet I often doubt, I rely more on the ground to hold me then to trust God to take care of my matters. While all my case is His, it is no more my worry, it is His worry.
    Living in the Spirit, it means I trust Him totally, and do not react in my old reflexes. What can keeping a sabbathday holy do to this growth in life? It is just a day.
    But Jesus is the real Life everlasting! from minute to minute.

  46. bubbles says:

    Some thoughts, rxman. . . When the 10 Commandments were given, surely God knew man couldn’t keep them. When one is broken, we are guilty of breaking them all. The laws are like a fence–they are guidelines to help us live a safe life. Principles to live by. These principles will help our lives be peaceful. However, if getting us to heaven was dependent upon how well we lived by laws, it would be a works-based salvation. Carnal pride would be evident. We would be giving our own selves glory, and not to God, who deserves it. James reminds us that the law is like a mirror that shows us that we need a Saviour–to show us we do sin. Romans tells us that all have sinned, and we cannot measure up to God’s standards. Salvation is the free gift of God. His mercy is withholding what we deserve. His grace is favor that we cannot earn. Trying to follow a set of rules seems to me like putting ourselves on automatic pilot–following the rules without heart, more of a mind obedience, whereas asking the Holy Spirit to control us daily is like us willfully choosing to follow Him with our hearts. Like Mart has spoken before several times about motivations.

  47. poohpity says:

    Romans 13:8-10, 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” This is a continuing theme through out the bible I think this is an example of how important people are to God.

  48. poohpity says:

    You are so right bubbles if we think that we are truly good then we tend to look down on others and do not have
    true estimate of who we truly are compared to Christ not to others. Even our motives as to why we do things prove that love does not come naturally especially to those who are not kind or lovable in our estimate. It is easy when love is returned but we called to a higher ground to love those who may never love us back as Christ did. It is the Holy Spirit living in us that enables us to go to that higher ground and to do those things that are beyond our human nature.

  49. learning54 says:

    As an elementary school principal, I have been in the position to hire and fire people for seventeen years. the firing is the worst part of the job. Sitting in judgement of others is not easy, yet the responsibility of finding the most effective teachers for our young people seems to force me into making decisions that I find unpleasant because most of the people I have had to let go, are truly good people, who want to have a positive impact on children. I know that I have made mistakes along the way but I’d like to believe that some of my decisions were the right ones. I do find myself more involved in prayer every March and April when it comes time to make these decisions. Even when I feel like I’m making the correct decision, I still feel bad for the person and their family if I’m letting them go. However, feeling bad doesn’t help them. I’m not sure if I’ll ever find peace with this part of my job.

  50. tandgmartin says:

    Thank you, Mart.

  51. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Had a BUSY day today, and I received an unexpected blessing. Praise the Lord! Like you all, I’ve enjoyed reading all of the comments in this blog post!

    Off topic here, but I would like to ask for prayer for my husband. He needs a relationship with the Lord. It’s difficult for me to be this transparent, but I don’t want to forfeit the honor and privilege of having someone pray for my family or me. Don’t want to neglect praying for others (esp. other believers) either. Was thinking about the song, “What a Friend We Have in Jesus” this morning:

    What a friend we have in Jesus,
    All our sins and griefs to bear!
    What a privilege to carry
    Everything to God in prayer!

    Oh, what peace we often forfeit,
    Oh, what needless pain we bear,
    All because we do not carry
    Everything to God in prayer!

    May we never forget the awesome honor and privilege of prayer.

    Todays devotional, “Freedom” speaks to what Steve shared in his comment to Rocky, and to comments from Sakoieta and Poohpity:

    [*Only shared a portion of the devotional*]

    “Freedom”

    Read: Romans 13:1-10

    Rom. 13:8, NKJV
    Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

    Romans 13:1-10 addresses our responsibility to the authority of human government and to the law of God. When we obey the governing authorities, we don’t have to fear punishment, and we gain a clear conscience by doing what is right (vv.3,5).

    Paul urged the followers of Christ in Rome to give the governing authorities what was owed them, whether taxes, revenue, respect, or honor (v.7). But he went beyond human regulations when he wrote: “Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law” (v.8).

    It is our duty to obey man’s law and our privilege to fulfill God’s law by loving others. And His law is “the perfect law that gives freedom” (James 1:25 NIV).

    God wants us to obey the laws
    That govern our society;
    But loving one another is
    God’s perfect law that sets us free. —Sper

    We keep man’s law by obedience; we fulfill God’s law by love.

    Off topic again, My youngest brother shared with me that the date, 10-10-10 is coming up. He said he’s going to send me a really cool email on that date; I think he’s going to try to send it to me at exactly 10:10 pm on 10-10-10! Remember a BTA blogger saying that their birthday will be on 12-12-12. Can’t remember which one of you said it.

    Blessings,

  52. Regina says:

    learning54 – While praying for discernment regarding who to let go (fire), you could also pray that those Teachers will develop the skills needed to be good candidates for another teaching position or employment somewhere else. You could also ask God to give them guidance/direction as they look for another job.

    Have to add (though) that some blessings are only for those who are of the household of faith (Gal. 6:10). Some people believe in God, but they have not confessed Jesus as their Lord and Savior (Rom. 10:9-10).

    Blessings,

  53. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Been Thinking this morning, 08:00AM here, About “The Value of a Person”

    My Web Browser is set to the BBC Website as it’s home page and I often am distracted by an item of news. This morning it was Preisdent Barack Obama:

    He said in a speech at a White House dinner celebrating Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, Mr Obama waded into the row, saying:

    “We must all recognise and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of lower Manhattan, Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground. But let me be clear, as a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country.
    That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community centre on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are.”

    He told the group of US Congressmen, government officials and foreign dignitaries that America’s tradition of religious tolerance distinguishes it from “our enemies”.

    “Al-Qaeda’s cause is not Islam,” he said, “it is a gross distortion of Islam”.

    That got me thinking about the value of a person and their right to freedom and the value society places on that right.
    There are thousands of troops from both our nations and many others, who are fighting and giving their lives for us all to be safe in our towns. Almost Everyday a British solder is killed in Helmaned Province. What value do we place on these men and women who die for our freedom and what value do we place on “The Man” Jesus Messiah who died for our ultimate freedom?

    Bob

  54. foreverblessed says:

    Bob, do we not have to ask ourselves the same question? What value do we place on any other person the Lord gives us a heart for?

    Jesus sums up the law of the old Testament;
    love God with all your heart, and love neighbours as yourself. Mark 12:28-34
    A long time I thought as a christian this is my guideline.
    But, now it strikes me that Jesus at the end of His life here on earth says:
    John 15;12 My command is this:
    Love each other as I have loved you

    And Jesus loved us more then He loved His own life, He laid down His life so that we could live.
    Do we want to live in the Spirit?
    If we want to follow Jesus, we should consider this. Count the cost, Luke 14:25-35 (we will have to repent of old ways, die to our old man, and live in the Spirit)
    Do we really know how much value a person’s life is? If we follow Jesus we will find out that the value of another soul is souch a big thing in Gods’eyes. If Jesus was willing to give His life for us, and we are His followers there will be a time that we will have to face the same choices as He did.

  55. foreverblessed says:

    pooh wrote: Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Romans 13:8
    bubbles wrote: The laws are like a fence–they are guidelines to help us live a safe life. Principles to live by. These principles will help our lives be peaceful.

    I am just free wheeling now:
    Galatians says: the law is in Galatians 4:23-24 the law is a fence to us untill we live in faith in Jesus.
    The goal of the law is to lead us to Christ. v24
    Once we are found by Christ, there is no more need for the law to be our guide. Now Jesus is our guide. That is, if we have repented of our old ways (Luke 5:32) if we kill our old man, (Romans 7:4-6 and that dying to our old man is not done at once, but bit by bit, as we encounter difficulties in our relation with each other,even here on the blog)
    1 Timothy 1:9 the law is made for the lawbreakers.
    (I am not saying that we can brake the law, no, I am saying we should not use the law for which it is not intended: as our guideline, it is our fence untill we live in faith in Jesus.
    Romans 7)
    As Rxman wrote, we should live in the Spirit, not in the law.
    Jesus wants to give us His life, Life in the Spirit, this is not done by following the 10 commandments.
    You see what I mean, it is like the horse and carriage, we should have the horse lead, that is the life in the Spirit, and then we will have the carriage behind us, we will fulfill the 10 commandments.
    But if we put the carriage in front of the horse, (that is let the 10 commanments be our guideline in life) nothing will happen in the Spirit world.

    Why am I stressing this point?
    Because Jesus wants to elevate us to His realm of life, having a burden for souls. And this is not achieved by following the 10 commandments. They will give that we have peacefull lives.
    But the value of souls is so big that Jesus was willing to give up His life, and so will we be brought to that place by Him, lovingly.
    He leads us in love, as Bubbles wrote, every morning He says how much He loves us. Go and meet Him, and hear…

  56. SFDBWV says:

    Regina, It’s funny the things that spark our intrest, or catch our eye.

    The first time I *noticed* the number sequence of our dating system, was when I sent a letter home while in the Marines on 6/6/66….After that I figured out when that occurance would repeat itself and tried to somehow make it memorable by sending a post card or something.

    It would be my pleasure to join with you and others in praying for you and your husband….Being transparent is very emancipating.

    Steve

  57. bubbles says:

    Just to clarify the ‘fence’ analogy:
    We have a huge fence surrounding the school where I work. Our school is in the middle of a neighborhood that in the past was considered a dangerous, crime filled place. That fence keeps the children safe from the traffic, and keeps passersby where they need to be also. We don’t want strangers wandering about the campus.
    When we begin the school year, we discuss the rules of the room and school. And how they protect us like the fence. Just like in society, a place without rules or where rules are ignored would be a place of chaos. The rules protect us from hurting ourselves and others.
    When we choose to obey the Lord, our lives will be much more peaceful than if we did whatever we wanted to do–life will be more peaceful if we don’t covet, kill, or so on. . .

  58. rxman says:

    thanks foreverblessed.

    you put into words exactly what I was so clumsily trying to say about the living in the Spirit as opposed to living in the law. thanks.

  59. Deanne says:

    Sakoieta:
    I find your ideas refreshing. It is sadly difficult for our modern American culture to let go of the idea of punishment. Also, the American society is focused on the individual and ever more lacking in community, where community means a close group of people who share the same values and support one another. Even the most basic family structure is small, and in many cases nonexistent. This is why our fragmented society is producing more and more deviants. There is very little accountability without a community with shared balues, or at least a united family. I have seen huge offenses brushed aside with a smile and a nod because there is no cohesive, supportive, value-based culture to rely on anymore. Many people are lacking the skills to deal directly with a deviant in a nonpunishing way.
    Nonpunishment does not mean allowing criminals to run wild. Rather, it means viewing each person as a whole person, understanding human relationships well enough to know what might have affected someone and caused them to do a criminal act, and having the community and courage to try and correct what is lacking in their life or psyche. If someone cannot be rehabilitated and is put “out of society,” it is not necessarily punishment. Instead, maybe it is for the protection of others. I often think of the difference between punishment and consequences to a person’s actions. Many times, I have seen people spared the natural consequences to their actions that would have likely taught them an ethical lesson. They go on, then, escalating to a higher offense for which they get “punished.”
    One of my favorite books is The Four Agreements, by Miguel Ruiz. While not a book from the Christian perspective specifically, it teaches four simple concepts that would enable all of us to live more like Christ: Let your word be impeccable, never make assumptions, don’t take anything personally, and always do your best. It sounds deceptively simple, but these four agreements are not so easy to live by. They are extremely liberating, though. When I remember them and try to live by them, it frees me from many of my fears. It also gives me the freedom to love even the most difficult people because I no longer need to be offended, I no longer need to judge anyone, and I have no more needless guilt distracting my mind.
    I find life refreshing and peaceful when it is free of judgement and punishment.

  60. foreverblessed says:

    Rxman, I have to thank you, because your comment made me going. Living in the Spirit liberates. Then we will find that it is all about the value of people!

    The value of our husbands, I will pray for you and your husband Regina. Mine is a believer, but does not talk about it, does not go to church with me. But he is a good man. I sometimes, most of the time, do not know what to pray for him, and just lift him up to God, he is His worry.
    And I ask Jesus to help me practice 1 Peter 3:1-6 to be quiet and rest peacefully in faith in Jesus, and maybe by the change in who I am, he will be drawn to Jesus.
    (Thanks for explaining Bubbles, I agree, it is good that there is a law in the society.)

  61. saled says:

    learning54, your comments show that you are a compassionate person. Wish that all people in such responsible positions had compassion. I work in education and our contract is worded so that people with more experience are valued over those newly hired. The problem comes when the newly hired are more competent, and someone has to be cut. How do you keep the most competent people when the less competent are protected by contract?

    Our principal came out and told us that she had been taught in a school management class to make life so difficult for the less competent employee that she would quit on her own. I know education is not the only profession where this takes place. I like what Mart wrote about even if employees need to be let go, the persons themselves are far more valuable than all the assets of the company. I find it so sad that people in management are being taught to deal so cruelly with people who need to be let go.

  62. poohpity says:

    I would think that firing someone that is not doing their job is valuing that person. If someone is allowed to continue doing their job and not doing the best for the company, customers and the job they were hired for then it seems appropriate to first ask them to change in the areas they are lacking and then if no change is noticed to fire them. It is teaching them respect for themselves and others, I see that as very valuable. If someone never has to serve the consequences for their behaviors then they will continue down the wrong path and that isn’t good for them or anybody else.

  63. foreverblessed says:

    Deanne, thanks for posting, it is indeed such a relief not to judge others, to leave that to God, just only to love them, as Christ loves me. It is hard though, and I often forget, I easily take things personally, but my son is around now, and often asks me; do you take it personally mom, just don’t. But I need Jesus to give all my irritation to Him the song Regina cited, what a friend we have in Jesus, all our sins (hurts, irritation, judgmental thoughts) he bears. But most of all, He gives back to me, His love!

  64. offthebeatenpath says:

    The value of a person?
    What a volatile topic!
    By responding to it I just might open a proverbial can of worms. Had to stew on it first for a few days……not really anxious to “step into it”.

    Mr. DeHaan said :
    “I wonder how wide our eyes would get if we could see the prize tag Jesus puts on the back of the illegal alien, the criminal, or the expendable worker we are tempted to DEHUMANIZE and CALL WORTHLESS…[emphasis mine]”
    First of all, I have a problem with the word “alien” applied to any human beings.
    I do not think Mr. DeHaan meant it to be dehumanizing, and many people in this country use the term rather carelessly. However, the way I am hearing the term “alien” used daily by others, it IS often said in anger, contempt and hatred. And it is indeed meant to dehumanize certain other people. One dictionary definition even defines “alien” as “unhuman”.

    I have learned that what things mean, depends upon who defines the terms.
    Who is a person, a human being?
    And who defines that and how?
    To Creator Jesus every creature belonging to Homo sapiens is a human being, a human person.
    Yet many human beings do not consider other human beings equally human or fully human. That has been my long life experience.
    Whether one is of “the greatest people” or inferior or even subhuman, depends upon one`s values, priorities, worldview….one`s culture.
    In my view, this belief is one of the most poignant, and for the most part unrecognized or denied in dominant society, tragedies! Because of the devastation it causes in the lives of those who are deemed “less than…”
    I cannot comprehend a society where corporations are persons and many human beings are not.

    As one of those labeled “less than…” [I won`t mention any of the really dehumanizing terms commonly used], I`ve always hung on for dear life to Creator, because he gave his life for all humans, including me. It is HE who gave us all the same value as his creatures, no matter who claims otherwise.
    I know he did not make anyone worthless garbage.
    But sometimes that is difficult to remember for people who have always been told that is what they are.

    Before we can “…start treasuring rather than trashing each other”, as Mr. DeHaan said, we need to give up the belief in greatest/superior versus less valuable/inferior peoples.

    Sadly, I have not found many in the dominant society who regard, as Creator does, all people as equally valuable human beings.
    Those I have come to know who do, I appreciate tremendously! They are a living gift to me!
    I am continuously hunting for others…..

    otbp

  65. poohpity says:

    I hope we can first not take things out of context when we are replying as to not create a problem when there is none. I think if I read it correctly Mart said “illegal aliens” in a way that only meant for us to not look down on anyone no matter their residential, social, judicial, religious, or economical status. The love the Lord has for us surpasses any category we can put any human being in. The Lord who judges righteously looks at a persons heart and knows them thoroughly yet still shows His love while we were yet sinners died for ALL. Even those who do not believe in Him. So I do not believe that a can of worms was opened. It is a discussion and otbp your input is very welcome.

  66. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Steve & foreverblessed – Thank you so much for your prayers for me and my husband. We also have a son, Joseph Matthew (he’s nineteen yrs.old). I’m so grateful for your prayers.

    Steve – Wow, you sent a letter home while in the Marines on 6-6-66! That’s so historically interesting! Wasn’t born yet, but my momma may have been prego with me. I was born in March, 1967. As you probably know, many people don’t want anything to do with consecutive 6’s! lol!

    I think it’s a great idea to do something special when the month, day and year are the same. This will be the first year that I really paid attention and had a desire to do something special on the same month-day-year trio. And, you’re right, transparency “is” very emancipating.

    foreverblessed – You and I have something in common. There were so many times when I didn’t know what to pray for my husband. We don’t attend the same church and in many ways it speaks volumes as to why our relationship is the way it is. He told me when I first met him that he was a believer, but for 20+ years his actions have literally screamed otherwise. Which is why I (now) believe that there’s a difference between being a “believer” and confessing Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. I don’t really get the whole “carnal Christian” concept.

    In my mind if you’re born-again, you’re going to want to live your life in a way that pleases God. For instance, I want my words, actions and how I treat others to be pleasing to Jesus. And I know that Jesus is not pleased with how my husband treats me (in the past or now). He does kind things for me, but his actions are not consistent. They’re like the loopiest roller coaster. ..a total up and down experience. The Lord helped me to understand that He needs to be born-again and Spirit-filled. I can’t rationalize his behavior any other way in my mind. Your prayers are definitely needed and appreciated.

    Sensed that someone was praying for me today because he did something kind for me.

    Blessings,

  67. marma says:

    regina: thank you for sharing the words of that hymn. It was one that I used to sing as a new believer years ago; the words mean even more today.

    My mother got my sister a statue of a frog with hands folded in prayer; I thought, what a ridiculous and irreverent thing. While cleaning, my sis moved it into the hallway (I think it will end up in the garden at some point). Anyway, every time I passed the thing it reminded me to pray.

    We humans tend to carry too much alone rather than sharing the burden with others and praying about our needs as well. Thanks for sharing about your husband and allowing us to bear your burden with you.

  68. Regina says:

    *meant to say my husband did something kind for my yesterday and today.

  69. Regina says:

    marma – You’re welcome. :-) That hymn has truly been a blessing to my life as well. “Thank you” for caring enough to want to share my burden with me.

    Blessings,

  70. foreverblessed says:

    I am so sorry for you that you were illtreated by your fellow countrymen. Sorry for the mistreats, it is not in line with how Jesus wanted us to be. We are all strangers here on earth.

    1 Peter 1:17:
    Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here, in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

    And what will be the effect when we do that:
    22 now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth (that Jesus redeems) so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply from the heart.23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    And that is regardless of whether our partners are born again, we may have love from heaven and spread it here on earth, as being strangers here, for we are looking for a city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. Hebrews 11:9-10

  71. SFDBWV says:

    Regina, In March of 67 I was in Viet Nam, where I learned many life lessons.

    One of them was the value of a person.

    Once again the subject becomes relevent. A persons value is dependant on their neccessity to exist.

    We tend to de-humanize our enemy. To make them less than human and certainly less than ourselves.

    If you get the opportunity to actualy know an enemy, they are not all that different from us at all. They get hungry, they get tired, they love, they hate, they laugh and they cry.

    In the course of human events we have seen enemies become friends and friends become enemies.

    The value of that person changing, depending upon our perception of them.

    I will never forget the *first* time I had to carry out a dead Marine from the jungle….Though he was wrapped up in a poncho to hide the degree of decomposition the jungle had taken on him, I could see his face, or what was left of it, clearly…At first I was horrified, then courious.

    There lay someones son, perhaps someones father or brother. Days before he loved, he laughed, he had potential…Now he was….dead.

    I wondered how many people’s lives would be effected by this one young mans death.

    It was at this moment I realized there is no glory in such an end…..And I began to grow up.

    It is one of thoes matters that perplexes me so, as I watch the events of todays world unfold…Todays enemy seems so indifferent about the value of human life.

    Murdering in a cowardly way, innocent people and believing that God will reward them for their indifference to the toll of human suffering, they inflict upon others.

    Realizing that only through the changing of the heart of such people can there ever be real peace.

    Knowing that only the life changing power of Jesus Christ is capable of such a transformation.

    Steve

  72. SFDBWV says:

    If Mart will allow it, in todays edition of the Bismark Tribune, is a special article about Native American Issues, especialy criminal justice.

    bismarcktribune.com

    For thoes interested in the affairs of our Native American fellow citizens.

    Steve

  73. offthebeatenpath says:

    Poohpity :

    Regarding the first part of your response to my post of Aug 14, 6:30pm, in which you said :

    “I hope we can first not take things out of context when we are replying as not to create a problem when there is none. I think if I read it correctly Mart said `illegal aliens` in a way that only meant for us to not look down on anyone….” :

    As far as I am concerned, I did not take anything out of context. It is, of course, your right to see it differently. No problem there.

    Although I take issue with the label “alien” for any human being [and I fully understand that many who use this term see the people they apply it to as less than fully human], I also carefully and specifically pointed out that I do not think Mr. DeHaan used and meant it in the dehumanizing way many others do.
    Sorry, if my explanation remains unclear to you.
    This is the best I can do, English not being my first language….

    Misunderstandings happen easily with mediums such as email, forums or blogs. Just the nature of them. And one hazard of not being face to face with one another and hearing each others voices.

    What REALLY bothers me about your response to me, Poohpity, is that you simply sidestepped the serious issue I raised – dealing with HOW the value of human beings is so often defined. Was ignoring this issue oversight or deliberate? You do not have to answer this, but I cannot help wondering….And like to let you know that I noticed.

    I do not need anyone to convince me of Creator Jesus` unfathomable love for all human beings [including the ones who those who see themselves as superior/greatest despise]!
    If you knew my life story you would probably understand that.

    otbp

  74. offthebeatenpath says:

    Steve,

    Thank you for mentioning the most “invisible” peoples on the American continents!

    What you call “Native American affairs” is my very life issue. Because I experience it so vastly different from most majority culture folks, I have always lived as a stranger [mostly unwelcome] among them.
    My home is with the “invisible ones”.

    I am familiar with the Bismarck Tribune and similar newspapers. But I am on a dial-up “dinosaur” computer with which I cannot do lots of hitech functions. Therefore, cannot read the article.
    That is probably no loss for me. Because these newspapers present,with rare exceptions, the [negative]AngloAmerican viewpoint on Indian peoples.

    Saying this is no slam on you, Steve!
    As a culturally incorrect person, I see many things in a….er….culturally incorrect way.
    You intention is right, and maybe you found one of the rare positive and fair articles, or even one by the occasional Lakota guest writer.

    otbp

  75. poohpity says:

    otbp, I do not feel as if I side stepped the issue. All people are valuable no matter gender, race or nationality. I consider myself an alien while here on this earth but not “illegal” and that was the only thing I was trying to point out that the “illegal” part was taken out when talking about aliens. I think that was the point of the topic that no matter if someone is in jail or illegal they are all valuable to God but we as the human race tend to treat people according to different status’s which is not right but it does happen. There has been prejudices since Cain. Hopefully because of Christ in our lives we can be different that would be nice wouldn’t it?

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