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Before and After 9-11

Just before Labor Day, I took a few days off work and decided to spend some time  trying to brush up a rusty golf swing.

What I saw when I got to the range made me laugh. A family of wild turkeys seemed to have concluded that the safest place in the world isn’t in the woods, but in a “duffers” target line.

They seemed to have no sense of being in harm’s way. A close call for them was nothing more than a moment of confusion.

Looking back I wondered how much like those turkeys I am.

In some ways, since 9-11 of 2001, our world seems less safe than before the Towers fell. Even if we wonder what really happened on that day and why, we’ve learned to live with a heightened sense of danger.

But on the other hand, my guess is that, like the turkeys at the driving range, I spend far too much of my life oblivious to the fact that, the real dangers of life aren’t found in issues of government or national security.

The real dangers, according to the Bible, involve a failure to trust our God in the face of all that we have going for and against us.

It’s easy to forget how misleading good times can be– or how much opportunity for faith, hope, and love there are in the troubles that haunt and hound us. On one hand the Apostle Paul tells us that we are not fighting against “flesh and blood” but against an organized system of spiritual power (Eph 6:12). On the other hand, the Apostle James gives us reason to believe that the Devil himself knows that we are our own worst enemy when we forget who our Provider is, chase blind desire, and fail to humble ourselves in the presence of our God (James 4:1-8).

My guess is that, if I could see what is really going on, I’d often look and sound like a turkey looking for lunch… in the middle of a driving range.


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62 Responses to “Before and After 9-11”

  1. marma says:

    Mart, I think I know part of what you are saying, anyway.

    Last night my sister and I were discussing 9/11 and how we thought/felt at the time. I remember that, just when things looked bad, they kept getting worse that day.

    (Reminds me of Amazed’s post yesterday and her three months of hardships.)

    I think we all would like to put a limit on bad circumstances because of how much we think we can endure. Who hasn’t said, “Lord, this it TOO much!”?

    The Lord knows are limits and I think that as long as we are leaning on ourselves rather than God, we our in greater danger than when we realize our need of absolute dependence on Him.

    Hebrews 12 reminds us to “Endure hardship as discipline.” The purpose of discipline is usually to stop us from doing something or to get us to do something else. So, hardship gets us to stop trusting in ourselves, and instead trust in God.

  2. marma says:

    Speaking of faith, hope, and love, I was in a car accident the other day where my car was rear-ended. We pulled over to the gas station and for about an hour, in the rain, my life was about how I was going to respond in that circumstance.

    A young man was driving, he was in misery and I felt for him. I knew he was in the wrong, yet at the same time, I knew he was suffering, too. I prayed that the Lord would intervene as I didn’t want to have to choose whether to have him cited or not (we are a no-fault state, so there is a choice.)

    I prayed, and the Lord answered by having the policeman decide, due to the damage, that the young man should be cited. Later, I prayed for the young man as I knew he would have some hard days ahead.

    Usually in such situations, my self protection takes over, but I was glad this time it lasted only a few minutes in my thoughts, before I turned to God in prayer. Wonderful to see God work, as Phil 2:13 states.

  3. saled says:

    “It’s easy to forget how misleading good times can be or how much opportunity for faith, hope, and love there are in the troubles that haunt and hound us.” I love this. I used to think that the chaos and trouble in my life meant that I had failed, or that I needed to work harder to create that perfect life. What encouragement to think of the opportunity for faith, hope and love that exists in our troubles.

  4. xrgarza says:

    The Apostle Paul said that he had to learn how to be content in wealth and in poverty.

    I came to a profound conclusion three years ago when I realized that every time that I would lose my job I would simply freak out. Then I realized that my actions did not match my words. Ever since I could remember I can hear myself saying, “God is my provider”

    So if God is my provider why do I freak out every time that I lose my job? Once I made that realization it has taken a lot of effort to be aware of that fact, I worked hard to get out of debt, because the word tells us to owe no one. I knew that one day I would again be with out a job, so I looked forward to that day.

    Praise God! It happened almost a month and a half ago. As of yet I still have not received my first unemployment check, nor have I accepted full time employment, but I am not freaking out, because I know that my employer is not my provider.

    I am actually going to begin searching this week for opportunities to either work or volunteer within my community, and then I plan to find a job to work around that schedule. Some say that is not wise, but I will no longer simply chase a paycheck. I intentionally worked to get out of debt for this purpose, and even though I’m not completely debt free I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

    Now I can be like those turkeys in the midst of “danger” I know whom my Protector, my Provider, and my Comforter is! I will not live in fear.

    Praise God!

    Rocky

  5. SFDBWV says:

    Psalms 116:6 “The Lord preserveth the simple:”

    In so many ways, Jesus taught us that the simple or the meek or thoes among us who are less concerned about everything and more laid back, are blessed.

    Remember the song…”Don’t Worry Be happy”…There seems to me that there is a great deal of Biblical truth in that statement.

    To often thoes among us who fight against the tide, try and change the world, see every fault in life and try and fix every problem, needlessly worry and often see an early grave as the result.

    Benjamin Franklin wanted to make the turkey our national bird. I would suppose because of the abundance of them and their being at the time an easy source of food.

    They may appear oblivious to Mart at the driving range, but they are very good at seeing every thing going on all around them, and very good at running or flying away in the face of danger.

    If you scatter the flock, then wait, they will call each other back together with their own language of calls and peeps.

    They are not solitary creatures but need each other for their safety and survival.

    I also watched the various re-showings of the attack and aftermath of the Twin Towers in NY on 9/11/01.

    I was once again filled with anger and sorrow, and in some cases pride in my fellow countrymen. So many stories of sacrifice and heroism, in the face of certain doom.

    Where once I may have been, as Mart thought of the turkeys, oblivious to the danger of such people as attacked us, I no longer am. My eyes and ears are very much attentive to them and as I learn more of them…I would never trust nor turn my back on them again.

    Yes the events of 9/11/01 have cahanged us all, and the world in which we live.

    Steve

  6. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I only seem to trust God in the bad times and ignore Him in the good, hence I have alot of bad times.
    I guess it is Gods way of keeping me focussed.
    I am begining to except the fact and praise Him that it keeps us close.
    Rocky, I too say “God is my provider” then go into a blind panic when the Job or hours dissapear, I to have vast debt problems and a banruptcy issue that needs to be resolved. I wish I could work my way out of it, but the money here in Cornwall is too low to even think of that.
    So God has to be my provider as I have no other choice.
    I am often amazed at God’s simple logic in the way He gets me to see the truth of who He is and where I am.
    Like Mart’s Turkeys I am very aware of the spiritual bombardment all around me, but know I am safe in Him just as the Turkey knows he is safe when in the flock and regroups if scattered by suprise and fear.
    Although the events of what you call 9/11 changed the way mainland USA reacts to attacks and enemies within, you have to remember in Britain and Europe we have been subject to such attacks for many decades.
    We had the IRA, Spain had ths Basque seperatists and Germany had Badder mienhoff, the list is endless.
    At one time in the UK if you heard an Irish accent you became immediatly suspicious and trod with special care. Luckily now most of these issues have been delt with but has left us wise to how to deal with terror and “new” enemies within.
    The war on terror is no different to the war that is waged on us by satan everyday. We must keep close to Jesus and focus on what is right(eous) and good.

    Bob

  7. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Sorry, I meant to say:

    The war on terror is no different to the war that is waged by us on satan everyday. We must keep close to Jesus and focus on what is right(eous) and good.

  8. poohpity says:

    I agree Mart that the real dangers are not necessarily the issues of governments or national security. I see more danger in hate, indifference, apathy, self righteousness and pride. The attitude of pull yourself up by your boot straps and get going or the Lord helps those who help themselves which is not biblical at all. How about struggles against those we feel are enemies when the Lord asks us to love those who do not love us back and to do good to those who have harmed us.

    It is easy to point out the dangers that are in your face but the hidden dangers are harder to identify because we feel justified by heart issues. Like they will get theirs.

    It is very eye opening watching your DOD program with an Arab and a Jew standing next to you discussing love and seeing how their love of the Lord is what is bringing two admittedly opposed nations together with a mutual desire to please God. God is working on a peace that surpasses all understanding one heart at a time. If we could see another’s heart like the Lord does I believe that would be totally terrifying but like the turkeys we are unaware of the darkness that lurks there. Yet God sees it all and still forgives, amazing.

    Mart, if you lose anymore weight I am afraid I won’t be able to see you anymore you will disappear. :-) I am going to send you some cheesecake, lol.

  9. Regina says:

    Good Evening All
    Just dropped by to say hello. Well, it’s back to work for me tomorrow blogger buddies. I work as a Substitute Teacher. While work can sometimes be sporadic, I may not be able to blog as regularly as I do in the Summer. Please keep me in your prayers as I need *much* wisdom when working with children.

    p.s. I posted the same comment in the previous topic by accident.

    Blessings,

  10. marma says:

    Regina, thanks for sharing your needs. I’ll be praying. My mom was a substitute teacher for a few years. Very challenging and each class, different.

    Poohpity, yes, self protection is a real danger when held above all concerns. Keeping our eyes on Jesus is superior, because He is the great protector of our soul and spirit.

    Our pump started working on it’s own, today. Go figure–possibly a wet switch. I am so thankful! Nothing like having something you take fore granted taken away to make you appreciate it all the more when it is given back.

    Last weeks DOD was very revealing and insightful. Looking forward to part II of DOD. Think I’ll watch it now. :)

  11. clowman says:

    I have to say that 9/11 was definitely an awakening for me. It made me realize that real evil lurks in this world. I suppose it is just a matter of time until something else happens…but I KNOW that God is in charge of it all and whatever happens, ultimately, is His will.

    Good times…bad times…we all have both of them don’t we? Some on a bigger scale than others. But contained in both of them are two things to look for…they are always there…we only need to seek them out. There is always a blessing and always a lesson. He places both of them there for us if we just seek them out. Learning to trust in God through the bad times is easier when I stop to acknowledge that He has at least allowed it. Whether I learn from the situation is my choice. And what a blessing to know that He thinks that I am worthy of His attention! He cares about me! The greatest blessing is knowing that he is right beside me through whatever… As for 9/11 there were many blessings, the bravery and selflessness of so many hundreds of people; rescuing, caring, tending and loving those in need…the coming together of people to help others. The millions and millions of prayers sent up on behalf of our nation and the victims in particular by fellow Christians all over the globe. The lesson for me was to realize that evil is out there and my resolve to not to be like your turkey, Mart…but rather focus on the one in control.

  12. SFDBWV says:

    In 2 Kings 6:17, Elisha prayed and the Lord opened the eyes of the young man so that he may see the spiritual powers that surrounded and protected them.

    In the Book of Daniel chapter 10:12-14 is the story told, of an angel who was witheld because of the evil spiritual power of the kingdom of Persia.

    Both of these events in *time* should teach us that there are unseen evils that are at work against us, attempting to twart Gods plans for us…But

    There is also unseen efforts from God that are in motion well before we sense danger to protect us and bring us to the ultimate conclusion….The will of God.

    I pray that God open mine as well as your eyes to be able to *see* both….And surrender our will for His.

    Steve

  13. scout1 says:

    Mart- you left out the most important part of your story. After you hit your first shot -did the turkeys move? You mentioned a bit of confusion – but did they leave and get out of the way? Maybe your aim is pure accuracy?!? ;)
    Please let us know what happened. . . (the rest of the story -so to speak)

    Lynda

  14. BruceC says:

    Mart,

    Those pics reminded me of some that my older brother sent me. He plays golf on some courses in northern New Jersey. And yes they have turkeys. But they also have bears with cubs. In which case it becomes a matter of whether they will move or if you will have to hop into your cart and vacate the area. Life is like those bears. It is unpredictable to us and only known by God.
    I watched a Fox News recap of 9/11 and went through the sorrow and anger again. Sorrow for the victims and the families who have to live through that time all their life. And anger not towards Muslims; but toward the religion of Islam. I believe it to be deceptive and demonic it it’s origin and doctrines. Satan is always trying to thwart the plan of God(which is a useless exercise) and one of the tools in his chest is false religions.
    When you couple terrorism, the bad economy worldwide, lack of stability and political upheaval you see the enemy trying his best to create chaos and eventually all out rebellion towards God and His Gospel. But we as Christians have to see the bigger picture and that is that people in this conflict are but pawns of the enemy and dark unseen spiritual powers that have set themselves up against the Lord. These people need their eyes opened and only the saving Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ can do that. Until the Day of His return this conflict will continue. Let us pray that we may take as many “prisoners” as possible.

    BruceC

  15. SFDBWV says:

    I totaly agree Bruce, If we are open and honest about our feelings concerning “Before and After 9/11, we are effected emotionaly.

    When I think about the events of 9/11 I think of the thousands of people who died. At the hands of suicidal cowards, whoes religion teaches them the killing of people who do not believe as they, is not only ok, but their god will reward them eternaly for it.

    As I think about thoes who died, some horribly all traumaticly and violently.

    Each one of them wanted to live. Each one was loved by another and looked forward to having a life.

    But these cowards who murdered them, cared nothing about the people they killed nor the ones who loved them.

    No one on this blog as far as I know, lost a loved one in NY on that day to these Islamic thugs. So we only speak about our observations and conclusions from that as an observer.

    Now we see an effort to build an Islamic symbol next to the place of the 9/11 disaster. Under the pretense of a peaceful gesture.

    If the people involved who want to push this insult upon the citizen of NY and of America, were really concerned about offering an olive branch of peace, they would show better judgement and be sensitive to the feelings of the victims families and of the wishes of America and build their Mosque somewhere else.

    But that is not their desired goal, they are using our own freedoms against us and furthering hard feelings, as a way of furthering the conflict between Islam and America.

    Do not be decieved, know your enemy and how he operates. It is also ok for them to lie to an unbeliever.

    Steve

  16. poohpity says:

    Mart said, “The real dangers, according to the Bible, involve a failure to trust our God in the face of all that we have going for and against us.” That statement was made so real to me this morning during devotions. Do I really trust God with EVERY circumstance, with HIS will not my own, or with my total life? Do I really surrender it all to Him? I think that hits more areas than I would like to admit and then maybe I would be like the Turkeys that just eat and do not worry about all that surrounds them (me).

    I guess I know the answer to those questions by how upset I get when I am confronted with problems, or enemies, or evil. Trusting Him for me has been a process and hopefully each day letting go of more and more into His care knowing that He truly has our back unlike any body else ever has.

  17. poohpity says:

    Steve, we posted at the same time and I just read yours. It seems like the real enemy lies in our hatred which is in each of us. That is just a piece of ground if we truly believe that God is in control we know that in the end it is Him that wins out. Jesus overcame the world and He lives within each of us and we will never be able to prove His love by harboring anger and resentment. Loving our enemies is doable when we allow the Spirit of Christ to rule in our lives.

  18. marma says:

    Human government is there for the protection of the citizens of that government. But we know as far back as the first century, even in the godless government that was Rome, there were Christians in Caesar’s household.

    We also know that there were those in the NT who were enemies of the Cross of Christ and were killing Christians that had a 180 and came to Christ. Paul, for one, and most significantly–he was a chosen vessel.

    We don’t know who among the enemies of the Cross will see our response, and begin to ask questions and want to know our God. I think the most frustrating thing for enemies is when Christians don’t respond in kind to their hate.

    Poohpity and Mart summarized very well what our response should be.

  19. Mart De Haan says:

    Lynda, the turkeys stayed. I tried not to bother them. :-) When I did mistakenly hit into them, they just “jumped” and then settled back into their search for lunch.

  20. xrgarza says:

    Bob,

    It has been a journey getting here. I’ve been in church most of my life, but it’s only been the last 23 years that I have seriously been applying the principles to my daily life.

    but about 2 1/2 years ago, the Lord showed me something that I never learned at home, school, church, or from our government.

    Back in 2001 my whole world came crashing down on me, up to this point I had been paying my tithes and offerings faithfully. All of the messages that I had ever heard up to that point about finances was simply if you are struggling financially give to the Lord and He will bless you.

    Well, I thought gees if this is true, I’ll fight back by doubling up on my giving so for an entire year I did so.

    2 1/2 years ago, I got this job making a decent wage & I still was not able to make it from payday to payday.

    I cried out to the Lord, “What am I doing wrong here? What am I missing?”

    That’s when he took me to Deuteronomy 26: Wow! I have never heard a message like that before. In a nutshell what I got out of it was that after they got out of bondage, and went through the desert, and after they were settled into the promise land, then they were to bring their tithes and offerings to the Lord. it was for the Aliens, Orphans, Widows, & Priests.

    So in essences get out of bondage first. When Joseph first became governor of Egypt he ordered the entire nation to save 20% of every thing for seven years. In school, church, home, or from our government I have never been told to save 1% let alone 20% for seven years.

    So this is how I have been living my life for the last three years. People and pastors have criticized me, but God continues to bless me.

    I’m trying to write a booklet/booklet explaining everything in detail, which may make more sense.

    Rocky

  21. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Thanks Rocky,
    I will study Deuteronomy 26:
    I too have tried the 10% tithing thing and got nowhere.
    Funny enough God has been speaking to me this week about saving and also using my tallents to make wealth rather than rely on a wage.
    I think He is trying to tell me not to waste so much and to get on with life in Him. Although I have always been seeking spiritual riches I feel God wants to provide a full package for a full and abundant life.
    I look forward to reading your booklet!

    Bob

  22. davids says:

    I am happy that I did not spend anytime reliving the events of 9/11. It makes me sad to read here and elsewhere comments about Islam that were in past times said about Jews and Catholics in the US. That they are of the devil, etc.

    Yes, Mart is correct, “I spend far too much of my life oblivious to the fact that, the real dangers of life aren’t found in issues of government or national security.”

    In Belgium, where I live, we are seeing right now how the church failed hundreds of people that were molested by people pretending to represent our Lord. In Oklahoma, terrorism was commited by a non-Muslim.

    The danger is all around us and we can only get through it by trusting in God, and not by blaming the “Other”.

  23. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    David,
    I totally agree with you.
    Having lived with the “Irish” problem for so many years here in Britain and now having a very large Islamic population, it is almost impossible to make general “hate statements against any group as we are all in danger and all need to be vigilante on what I call “the enemy within” our own societies. Infact in the UK it is ilegal to insite hatred against any ethnic group or religion.
    Many Muslims were killed during our terrorist attacks a few years ago and we have one city, Birmingham, that has many mosques including the largest in Europe. I can see no point in protesting about one being built in New York. Like Marma suggested, we are different and should be recognised by our love for one another and our enemies as many will then see Jesus in us and not a reflection of their own hate and intollerance.

    Bob

  24. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    David, as you know the Pope is coming here this week and there will be lots of protests about his falure to act on these abuse scandals that are being revealed almost daily around Europe. I hope and pray the catholic church does something soon as all this just makes people dislike and hate christians in a similar manner that 9/11 has done for Islam.

    Bob

  25. saled says:

    My son-in-law’s sister is married to a Muslim. He has been in the states for a little more than 2 years. He has given me a new perspective on the issue. He says that the Muslim countries are (in his words) slow compared to America, and that they view America as on top of everything. They think that America could help their countries along, but refuses to because their countries are Muslim. He says the extremists use incidents like the threatened Koran burning to reinforce this belief. He thinks that America needs to publicize the fact that 13 million Muslims are living good lives in America, and that America does not hate Muslims. Putting the mosque so close to the site where the trade centers were might just send a powerful message to the millions in Muslim countries who are watching.

  26. rxman says:

    The hard part for me is trying to figure out when “stuff” happens in my life is it:a) something I am doing wrong and God is disciplining me, b) just life happening because we live in a sinful world, or c) satan attacking me and blaming God.

    So for me it’ not being oblivious to the golf balls, it’s trying to figure out where they are coming from so I know where to run.

  27. davids says:

    Yes, Bob, it pains me to know that there are many (Catholic) Christians that are suffering right now in Europe and around the world due to these revelations. The scandal has reinforced European perceptions the “the Church” is something distant, powerful, and mainly concerned with its own preservation. Christianity has been greatly harmed.

    Today we read that in India, Muslims have reacted to reports of a US Qu’ran burning by rioting and setting fire to a Protestant-run school. Is this the reaction we want to cause against Christians and evangelists around the world?

    Our intolerance begets intolerance. We should not work to create an environment of hate, but rather an environment that sets the place for the acceptance of the Word that we have to share.

    From today’s ODB reading from Proverbs 16:
    29 A violent man entices his neighbor and leads him down a path that is not good.
    30 He who winks with his eye is plotting perversity; he who purses his lips is bent on evil.
    31 Gray hair is a crown of splendor; it is attained by a righteous life.
    32 Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city.

    David

  28. poohpity says:

    I believe the whole purpose of tithing is to see who is first in our lives not the prosperity gospel of if you give you will get back. It is about who has our heart, money or God and whether we trust the money or God for our provision. It all goes back to the same thing do we trust God even when we can not see results of our faith but a renewed heart and a changed life. Are we worshiping God for who He is or want one can get.

  29. poohpity says:

    It also acknowledges that everything we have is from and belongs to God. We are given a responsibility to care for that provision. God does not need our money it actually causes many to love it rather than the One who supplies all our needs. We are to use it to help in God’s work and by helping those fortunate than ourselves, it is a very great privilege to be able to give.

  30. poohpity says:

    I meant “less” fortunate. lol.:-)

  31. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Thanks Deb, I do understand why we tithe, but in Malachi 3:10 God asks us to test Him to prove His blessing on us if we tithe:-

    Malachi 3:8-11 (Amplified Bible)

    8Will a man rob or defraud God? Yet you rob and defraud Me. But you say, In what way do we rob or defraud You? [You have withheld your] tithes and offerings.

    9You are cursed with the curse, for you are robbing Me, even this whole nation.

    10Bring all the tithes (the whole tenth of your income) into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and prove Me now by it, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

    11And I will rebuke the devourer [insects and plagues] for your sakes and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground, neither shall your vine drop its fruit before the time in the field, says the Lord of hosts.

    David, If only we acted with the same zeal against the child abuse in the catholic church as we do against radical Islam, maybe the world would see and know we are truly a caring people and not just another religious fundamentalist group mouthing hate to anyone who disagrees with us.

    Bob

  32. pegramsdell says:

    Hey pooh, I’ll take the cheesecake! lol….

    About the dangers….I think if we could all see all the danger around us (even in the spiritual realm) we would not feel safe. But…God has our back, front an everything else for that matter. Nothing happens to us that He does not know about. Remember the sparrow. :)

  33. SFDBWV says:

    God said in Genesis 6:13 that because of the violence in the earth He Himself would destroy them with the earth.

    In Genesis 8:21, God says He will no longer curse the ground for man’s sake…I would suppose that the curse from Eden concerning such is now void.

    God continues and says that the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and that He (God) will not kill *every* living thing as before.

    Then as you read on, any man who kills another is to be put to death, Gen 9:6

    As God establishes Abraham, Abraham is afraid of being killed yet when the Kings went to war and captured Lot, Abraham pursued and slaughtered them, and was blessed by Melchizedek (Gen 14).

    The entire story of the Exodus begins with the Death angel passing over Egypt and killing all the first born sons of Egypt, directed by God.

    The story of the different occurances when Israel disobeyed God in the wilderness, God killed off thousands as a result.

    When God sent Israel into the promised land, He instructed Israel to kill every man woman and child, even the animals.

    The continuing story of Israel and the history of man is a story of killing either through war or through murder or through execution.

    Jesus Himself being executed and killed….As was God’s will.

    For the last two thousand years, nothing has changed. Except that we are told to love our enemies.

    Yet you and I sleep safe and sound each night in our beds because somewhere someone is willing to do violenence and kill for our protection.

    How easy it is for some to set safely in their homes and talk of everyone getting along and living in peace, while another sacrifices and kills to establish their ability to do so.

    During this period of God’s time, we are under grace. That enables us to find forgiveness for our wrongs, learn and grow in the knowledge of our Lord.

    Yet at the end of the story (Revelation) killing and death at an unimaginable level returns to the story of man and God;

    And what of the enemies of God… death is not enough, they are thrown into an eternal lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever.

    The book, this Bible, tells us much. We have to be able to see what it says. Know who our friends are and know who our enemy is, and most importantly be on the right side of God.

    The living Ark of God is Jesus the Christ, only with the Ark going before us can we hope to succede, only within the Ark can we hope to escape the destruction coming.

    Marts turkeys know when danger is near and know when it is not; are they smarter than we?

    Steve

  34. BruceC says:

    I think some here have the idea that I “hate” Muslims, or that Steve may as well. First off I said that I DON’T hate Muslims. I hate what they believe. We are to love the truth and others. I can show love to another while hating his lifestyle or belief. Please don’t confuse the two. Secondly I wonder what other people in the world would have to say if Christians in the US and elsewhere rioted and burned everytime a Christian was killed, beaten, or jailed somewhere in the world? Or if we threatened to do so everytime our belief was disrespected? The real church doesn’t do these things because we are taught to pray for our enemies and to love them. But that love doesn’t mean we have let them order us about; or put our hands in our pockets in the face of aggression and violence towards us or others. If that were the case we would be reading Mein Komphf as required reading or worshipping an emperor across the Pacific. Think about that for awhile. At the end of hostilities in WWII did we slaughter those whose didn’t give allegiance to the US; or out of vengeance? No; because it was against our Judeo/Christian principles. How would Irag, Kuwait, or Saudi Arabia react if we wanted to erect a church as a symbol of peace and understanding? Isn’t tolerance a two-way street? We would not erect a church because we know it would insult the sensibilities of those people. Is it too much to ask for the same consideration in return? Has PC blinded us?
    While I speak out against what I believe to be wrong I can also pray; and not hate, those that follow that wrong way.

    BruceC

  35. scout1 says:

    Amen, Steve and Bruce! Thank you for your comments. We are “politically” correct”-ing, ourselves to accepting anything. Our God-given standards are being washed down with the dangerous -compromise.

  36. tha.khoza says:

    i read mart’s post yesterday and i thought about how cool and helpful it was. little did i know that i would be tested the following day. i just found out today that i have to pay for an unfortunate incident that happened over the past weekend. i am certain that the incident was no fault of mine but the other party happens to by friend and flatmate. the payment is going to put a huge dent on my finances and i dont know how i will go through october! i am so so tempted to be indignant and stand my ground but then when i think of this post and reflect on how God says he is my provider, and that he knows the desires of my heart, i see (albeit dimly..) an opportunity to trust God with all my heart to help a friend, regardless of whose fault it was. i just wish it was much easier than this.

  37. SFDBWV says:

    Once again Bruce is quite correct. I hate no one.

    But there are things I do hate.

    Where in the world can I look and not see something wrong? Something worthy of being hated? Where is the place or people that care only for the betterment of others?

    Islam is an evil religion. It does not have tolerence, mercy or love in it.

    Look only at the countries that have embraced it as the rule of law or as the majority of rule.

    Its people held under the boot of a cruel and evil oppressor.

    As a Christian, we are to love our enemy. Lovinging him enough to what? Allow him to pervert our children convert our loved ones into their beliefs and lose them to coming judgement?

    No, we are to love him enough to pray for him, to ask God that his eyes and heart be opened and become as I, a follower of Jesus, a follower of peace and love.

    Jesus gave no room for self interpetation when He said there is *NO* other way to God except through Him.

    Through Him we are born anew, with His Spirit as our guide and with God’s love in our heart.

    I liked a statement I seen a few days ago concerning Christians yielding to Musilims as an attempt at co-existing…”I don’t dance”.

    Well, I don’t dance nor make deals with the devil.

    Steve

  38. marma says:

    tha.khoza: I empathize! It is hard to know where the bounderies should be and where we need to suffer the wrong.

    In my accident, the other party knew that he was in the wrong, and I knew that he had hit my car without malice, but was distracted. Tried to balance my “rights” with compassion, but wasn’t sure what to do. So, I prayed and, thankfully, the police made the call.

    Going to God for wisdom is always the right thing to do. (James 1:5)

  39. dja says:

    Thank you, Steve and Bruce. I couldn’t agree more. We do need to love and pray for all no matter what their religion, but we can not go along with our PC society when we know it is as Steve said.
    Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
    ~Della

  40. poohpity says:

    Proverbs 21:2 All a man’s ways seem right to him,
    but the LORD weighs the heart.

  41. poohpity says:

    When we feed into anger, fighting, criticizing, complaining, malice we are dancing with the devil. When we allow the Holy Spirit to control us it will produce in us: love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. The battle is not ours it’s the Lord’s if we trust Him. I have felt the results of ugliness and anger in my life and once it has slipped it’s way in it starts to push out the things of God. That anger I felt was because I was wronged and had every right to be angry but I choose instead to follow a different path and forgive. If I keep quenching the things of the Spirit then I will no longer be useful as salt I will loose my flavor. I am not tolerating sin or being PC, I AM TRUSTING GOD.

    If you say Jesus is the way then follow His ways although He had all the power in the universe he put it down to suffer a horrible death on the Cross. He never repaid evil for evil and had every right to do so. His anger was justified when people were abusing the temple. His anger is justified, mine is not, it is self protection, fear based or trying to getting even.

    If I see someone picking on someone else who is weaker which I have and have a 6inch scar on my head to prove it, that may be righteous anger but I will not sit here and be an arm chair quarterback and condemn others when I do not know their hearts. I will try and promote peace but I will also try and protect the innocent and weaker not by using generalized statements that promote hostility and lead others to do the same that is just wrong.

  42. foreverblessed says:

    Have not been here for a few days, could not read all comments yet, but I resound with Pooh’s comment just above, If we follow Jesus, then we follow peace.
    No eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. (that was the old testament)
    But love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. (that is the new testament)
    Last Sunday the preacher talked about christians, that in the first church the christian faith did grow so fast, because of the mentality of the persecuted christians, they would praise God, in these horrible public murdering.
    What should have been an terifying event became a public evangelical happening. People were drawn to these christians because of their faith in persecution.
    He drew the comparison to the 911 event. That Lisa Beamer did testify of her God who helped her, and was a positive witness. Just the same as in old days.

  43. davids says:

    Steve and Bruce,
    We could spend a lot of time discussing whether oppresive Islamic regimes are worse than oppresive Christian ones, whether worse atrocities have been committed under the banner of Christianity than under that of Islam, etc. But I don’t think that will convince anyone. We simply disagree about some things.

    But on the question, “Isn’t tolerance a two-way street?”, I’m going with answer B: “No”. Tolerance is something that you can extend to another party, whether or not they reciprocate, like forgiveness. In this way it is not PC or easy. It is hard. It says “I am going to treat you as a neighbor even if you do not do the same.”

    Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
    “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
    if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
    In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
    21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

  44. marma says:

    davids: I agree, but also want to add that “tolerance” is all the world can do. Christians are to speak the truth in love” which goes way beyond tolerance.

    Tolerance is a sad little word. It means “allow” or as my mom would use it “puts up with”. There is no love there. The world can have its tolerance. Jesus has shown us a better way.

    davids: You illustrate that point well with the Romans quote.

  45. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    This is not very scriptural, but the phrase “put the cat amongst the pigeons” springs to mind.
    When faced with the mere threat of a cat in their vicinity all the pigeons fly up in a panic nocking into each other with feathers flying.
    The good old turkey on the other hand just raises its head and sees there is no real threat and carries on with the job in hand, eating etc.
    There is no other way to describe 9/11 other than evil, but to ask permision to build a mosque on a premium high cost site in Manahattan is no threat to anyone. Maybe like the Turkeys we should just put our heads down and get on with life.

    Bob

  46. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Like David, I see no difference between Islamic or Christian fundamentalists and the retoric and behaviour on both sides is tantermount to insighting relgious hatred. Burning the Koran or Burning down Christian missions and rioting in the streets are all symptoms of religious intollerance and hate.
    We must show the world that we are different and that Love not hate dominates our thinking and way of life.

    Bob

  47. bubbles says:

    It’s not a threat, but it does not promote peace.
    It shows disrespect.

  48. ygp says:

    I not only absolutely agree with Steve and Bruce, I empathy with them. In Indonesia where I was born, I experienced the attacks by muslims several times,they shouted Allahu Akbar while trying to break non muslim houses. Bible burning happened in many occasions without news coverage, and so burning of churches, together with the pastor and his family inside. I still keep the clipping of the pictures of those people who were burned to death because of their faith in Jesus. There are more stories about the violent inflicted by muslims to Christians, and other non muslims,including raping, killing and looting, not enough space to write it down in this blog.I thought USA is a safer place for us to start a family, free from prosecuton, but Mart is right, the safe place is near to the heart of our God. In USA I still experienced persecution because my belief in Bible as God’s word, and I do not escaped the discrimination treatment as a second class citizen, because of my status as an immigrant. But I choose to come here, either my decision is right or wrong, I honor this country as a blessing from God. I survive in the USA because of His providence. I was a physician and a lecturer back in Indonesia, here I did all kind of odd jobs, from babysitters to cleaners, or jobless for years, before I could have a research technician job.At present I still hold 3 jobs.
    2. regarding the mosque in NY, I wonder why does the world emphasize tolerance to Muslims, the same believers of the attacker of 9/11; but abandon the feeling of the victim.Balance is imprtant. If the muslims are passionate enoygh, they will never want to hurt the feelings of the victims. The Kuran teaches the muslims to build a mosque on NON muslim’s worship houses, to show their victory. i.e: The Ummayad Mosque,in Damascus, was built on the christian basilica, where the tomb of John the baptist is located, St. Catherine church in Spain was destroyed, and a mosque is stood on it now, and many other examples in other countries.
    Tolerance is not the only way of life in this country, understanding and harmony are important too. We have to educate our fellow citizens to practice the goodways of life that have been practiced for a long time here.
    3. There are differences between the Muslim’s war and Catholic/Protestant in England. The Muslim’s war is a encouraged (if not mandat) by Kuran, as jihadist, to make the whole world an Islamic state. The Iris’ war is against what Jesus teaches us, and opposed by us, who have been saved by Jesus’blood. The Irish war was confined to its territory, not intrude other nations.
    4. America is very generous to many countries, including muslim countries. The poverty in those countries is caused by their own system. When Tsunami happened in Aceh, the stronghold Muslim in Indonesia, USA was among the first countries who send humanitarian assistance, not Saudi Arabia, nor Kuwait, nor Brunei.
    5. I heard testimony directly from my brother in law’s sister, who told me that she escaped from one of the attack by the muslims in Lombok island,in early 1970s, was because she “agreed” to convert to Muslim and repeated what ever the attacker asked her to recite,in Arabic, with machette on her neck.
    I do not hate muslims, they need Jesus love, they do not have joy, peace and assurance of eternity. But I need to tell the truth, my experiences, not my idea, or what I think. I have muslims friends,who are so kind, they even call me mother. They are kinder than many Christians that I known. Many of them because they read Kuran in Arabic, without understanding what it means. My grammar is not good, moreove I am writing this blog in between my extra job. No Indonesian-English dictionary with me here, nor Kuran that I can give you the verses related to what I stated here. So forgive me

  49. ygp says:

    I find mistakes in grammar and typos as well, again, please forgive me. I would like to encourage all of us to keep praying for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are constantly persecuted in Muslim, Buddhist, and communist countries. Let’s pray without ceasing for the missionaries who risk their life for the love of Christ.

  50. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    ygp,

    Thank you for sharing all these things you have seen and experienced.
    It seems this “war” between Christianity and other faiths is more than mere hate and domination but comes from a deep routed spiritual war that is bigger than humanity itself.
    I do understand the deep and sincere love christians have for Jesus and are persecuted for it by other faiths that do not have Jesus as saviour and cannot understand what God has done for us, or refuse to acknowledge it because of fear.
    Only God can see the truth of what is happening to our world and we must be vigilent in one thing to “Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbour as ourselves”
    I will keep praying!

    Bob

  51. SFDBWV says:

    ypg, Thank you for your testimony of what you have actualy seen and experianced. My sympathies for you. I would love to have you as a neighbor.

    America is under attack, not only my a crazed killer but by a false religion an anti-christ who would pervert our children and alter our future.

    I am saddened that too many eyes are closed to what is happening, I fear it is God’s will, that sets up the coming judgement for my beloved country.

    I suppose that after the Mosque is built and 5 times a day as loud speakers call the faithfull to prayer, some may see.

    I hope Mart changes the topic, I have no more to say, have spoken the truth, whether understood or misunderstood. I am Christian.

    Steve

  52. InHisHands says:

    I don’t know if this will get read – as we have a new topic today, but I have been pondering for the last 2 days – When did God’s Word tell us that it is acceptable to have places to ‘worship other god’s before Him?’

    I am a Christian first, then an American and as I have watched every nation in the world bring their idol worship to our country, I have witnessed spiritual weakness enter and God be replaced. That is part of the stage being set and God is in control in the arrangement of the details – so we know it is coming, but I wonder – if we as Christians had done as David, and many other of the kings and torn down the places of idol worship, if there would be so much of the worldly influences around us today?

  53. foreverblessed says:

    Steve, afcourse there is only one Doorway to God and that is Jesus, but are we to force that on other people in your country? And forbid other religions?
    I am just curious how you want to do this: tare down these places of worship, as if we were living in Old Testament times, as David was.
    Are you not confusing America with the state of Israel, which God is going to restore when Jesus is coming back?
    Are we not to witness about Jesus until He comes? And tell about His grace to all who repent?
    Are we not to tare down idol worship in our own lives, and in our own churches and come back to the simple lives in Christ?

  54. bubbles says:

    Why is it that in this country, we are supposed to TOLERATE many religions, EXCEPT Christianity? What has happened????

    It’s okay to build a place of “worship” by other religions everywhere. We are to smile and our “lives are to go on. . . ” but, if we put up a cross or manger scene, EVERYONE is upset.

    America has become a place of interolance for Christians and tolerant of all other ‘beliefs.’

  55. Regina says:

    Good Evening All
    Like foreverblessed, I’ve been away for a few days, and missed conversing with you all in this blog.

    Steve, Bruce, ygp, InHisHands and bubbles –

    I TOTALLY agree with all that you shared! Praise God for your comments. InHisHands and bubbles you both “hit the nail on the head” as the old saying goes! Would say more, but we’ve moved on to another topic.

    ygp – Thank you for sharing your testimony.

    Blessings,

  56. foreverblessed says:

    Regina -Steve, Bruce, ygp, InHisHands and bubbles –
    Yes indeed, that is very very sad. But as the former topic was Revelation, we all know that persecution will come. And it starts with intolerance.
    It is time that we as christians refocus:
    from fighting against it,
    to turning to Jesus, and be a happy witness of Him despite intolerance, and if so be the case: persecution.
    That the fame of Christ will be spread, just as happened during the persecution of the christians in the first few centuries AD,
    by christians who bear intolerance with grace and gladness, Col 1:24.

  57. foreverblessed says:

    I realise I might sound a bit harsh, sorry, I do not want to hurt anybody, just want to encourage to keep our lamps burning, and our oil filled…

  58. davids says:

    I just hope that we will remember the lessons of history so that we do not repeat the same mistakes. Since the first centuries AD, Christians have been more often the persecutors than the persecuted.

    The Nazi party came to power, not despite the fact that 95% of Germans called themselves Christian, but because of it. The Catholics made common cause with the Nazis against the “Godless” forces of democracy and free speech (read: Vatican I).

    Many Protestants supported the “conservative” values of the Nazi party, as it was an anti-communist and emphasized family values. They accepted its well-known anti-semiticism by referring to Martin Luther (yes, THE Martin Luther), who wrote the treatise “On the Jews and their Lies”.

    The myth is that Hitler was a dictator of an atheistic regime. The fact is that he was the elected leader of a country where most people considered themselves Christians. Think about it.

    I have travelled to Muslim countries and have known Muslims. Surveys reveal the fact that the vast majority of them are trying to earn a living and raise thier families in peace. We should not conflate them with the images on our television, just as we hope that they will not judge Christianity by the news reports about our extremists.

    This does not mean that they are not wrong. But so are Jews, Athiests, Hindus, and others among us. This does not call out for a Holy War. They need to see and hear the Word, which is hard to do with a sword at your neck.

    We cannot build a church in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia (a dictatorship propped up by US arms). But I hope that the US will not go down the same road, because when religion and government get together, it is always bad for religion. The founding fathers were very wise in this regard.

  59. Regina says:

    Good Evening All

    Typed a very meaningful response to some comments made in this blog post and lost it (it did not post; don’t know why) because I didn’t think to copy it. Long story short…
    foreverblessed – you did not sound harsh in the comment that you made regarding my comment and the comments of others on this blog topic. So sorry that I lost my comment. :( Will definitely remember to copy it next time.

    Blessings,

  60. phpatato says:

    Regina

    To help me in doing less typing…allow me to post exactly what you posted!!!!

    Good Evening All
    Like foreverblessed, I’ve been away for a few days, and missed conversing with you all in this blog.

    Steve, Bruce, ygp, InHisHands and bubbles –

    I TOTALLY agree with all that you shared! Praise God for your comments. InHisHands and bubbles you both “hit the nail on the head” as the old saying goes! Would say more, but we’ve moved on to another topic.

    ygp – Thank you for sharing your testimony.

    Blessings…from the eyes of a Canadian

    Pat

  61. Regina says:

    Thank you, Pat! :) But I was referring to another comment in which I responded–in length–to foreverblessed and davids comment.
    It was a comment that I made after the comment that you shared (again). I had never lost a comment before so it was pretty devastating. …certainly made me realize the importance of copying my comments.

    Blessings,

  62. ygp says:

    thank you Regina, Steve, Foreverblessed, bubles, Bob. Steve, certeinly I would love to be your neighbour, but it is up to Him. We can share His love, pray together regularly for those who are persecuted because of His name, for the persecutors, that they may see His light, and for our fellow followers of Christ, that we may live the life according to the Living Words.

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