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Context Rules

Photo by: Perry McKenna

Over time I’ve seen how difficult it is to write something that is clear to the reader. As a result I’ve been spending time in a book that talks about writing from the reader’s perspective.

In “The Sense of Structure”, author George Gopen has given me a lot to think about. He explains, for instance that from a reader’s point of view how words are arranged can be actually more important in conveying meaning than the actual words that are used.

Behind that point is the rule of context. The words that precede and follow other words give words in question a sense of context.

Interesting, isn’t it, that from the smallest to the largest issues of our lives, whether we are listening to the news, interacting with one another, or trying to say something that makes sense, context rules.

Context in writing, as in life… is the secret of meaning.


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87 Responses to “Context Rules”

  1. BruceC says:

    Good topic Mart. After reading it I thought about how many times I have heard Scripture taken out of context. (Or may have done it myself)
    But when taught on a regular basis these Scriptures out of context can twist the meaning around to becoming either erroneous or downright deceitful. Almost like the way Satan attempted to tempt Christ.
    On a personal level; people to people, sometimes we take folks “out of context” too. We make a hasty judgement about another by observance of a single action; or few actions. We stereotype too. We fail to see the whole person. We likely aren’t around when they are on their knees before God asking forgiveness or for strength. We don’t see the work they truly do for His Kingdom, or the kindness or generosity they show to others, etc., etc. We take their life out of context based one little verse we caught a glimpse of in their life. Let the Lord help to read His Scripture and our fellow Christians AND unbelievers; in context.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  2. Charis says:

    What a beautiful standard poodle! :)
    We have two black sisters who do not look so finely groomed since I do it myself.

    Mart, you are already a good writer so I’m not sure why you are studying this? But thank you for making an insightful connection.

    In the mid-80’s, I took hermeneutics from Robertson McQuilkin and learned that “Context is KING” in biblical interpretation, but I hadn’t made that connection about how context also influences our “interpretation” of each other as well.

  3. SFDBWV says:

    Context….It is small wonder why people cuss or should I say use what today is considered profanity in attempting to expres themselves….everyone gets the meaning behind such a statement.

    As far as taking scripture out of context…the whole of the “Our Daily Bread” as well as many numerous booklets that give a daily scripture verse, is always taken out of context.

    Every sermon, every Sunday is taken out of context, and as above, is amplified or expanded upon.

    Jesus quoted the book of Deuteronomy more that any other book and He did so quoting out of *context*.

    People get it if you quote *out of context* “that man does not live by bread alone”…A quote Jesus made, does one have to read all of Luke or all of chapter 4 in order to properly make the statement?

    Here in this very difficult arena we cannot adequately express ourselves because, of a great many reasons.

    One of which is the fact that there is more to communicating than written words.

    There is body language, tone of voice, body contact, eye contact. The ability to clarify ones statement right away, if misunderstood. None of these points are in use on this blog, or even written in most books.

    Then there is the problem of time restrictions and interuptions, as one tries to quickly make a statement or communicate here…It can be very frustrating.

    Mart and some of you out here have been schooled in communications, yet still your efforts to convey your thoughts get misunderstood…

    What about the rest of us *normal* people who do the best we can just to say what it is we want to say?

    I can tell you many a punch in the nose came straight from people just not understanding what was said to them.

    I used the term *arena* up top in my statement because often I feel this is how things get here, just like being in an arena in combat. Either having to defend what we say or striking back as some, love to spread strife into the discussions.

    You want to know what rules? Curtesy, kindness, politeness, common sense…Or should I quote the fruits of the spirit?

    We believe that the author of Scripture is the the Holy Spirit…Is it because so many disagree what the Spirit says, through His Word, because the Holy Spirit failed to communicate properly?

    No,… some people are going to only hear what they want to hear and nothing else, no matter how well written or expressed some things are given.

    Steve

  4. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… Context is King, great rule for writing and practice.
    Personally, I feel even context must pass through the reader’s perspective, or filter of Belief, and Life Experience.
    If context is King, and Christ is King of Kings, He Rules
    even over context!
    “No matter what!” to coin a favorite phrase of Charles Stanley…Gary

  5. Mart De Haan says:

    SFDBWV, the complexity you describe is so real– which may be why the Scriptures say that “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge.”

    You’re also right that motive is a real issue. But what I’ve seen over time is that some of the people I thought were “out to get me” really had my best interests at heart. The opposite can also be true.

    (So, in what I think are “better moments” I realize that I need to find my security in God, who alone can weigh the hearts, while asking him to help me share his purposes…)

    Have been thinking a lot about this today and my attention has gone in several directions… some of which I know are so important to you. One is our relation to nature which according to Genesis, Job, the Psalms, Romans, and Revelation show us how important to always begin with a reminder of the power and wisdom of our God.

    For me that’s an issue of context that can we need to keep in mind wherever we are (allowing also for the fact that rural life can become so familiar that its creator is taken for granted) but also especially in our increasingly urban, technologically immersed world where reality is teased to death by “digitally manipulated sights and sounds”.

  6. oneg2dblu says:

    Christ used, speaking in parables for many lessons, and the context was missed by many, even yet today. In that day, even the disciples, did not get it!
    Did He not know, Context is King, or did He “with intention” make it difficult, so today,only those who would, Ask Seek and Knock, would get HIs Interpretation?

  7. poohpity says:

    There is so much to context. Knowing the circumstance that an event occurs or the setting. Looking at the text and it’s surrounding words or passages helps to determine it’s meaning. Even getting to know about the writer and what his/her slant is or considering the audience the writer hopes to effect is also important.

    In college we had a class called “Elements of Argument” that taught us to think beyond what was written. We were given an article to read and not told who the author was. It seemed very impressive but there were little things written that would lead one to think this was written by a genius but there were parts of it that had my mind saying there is something wrong here. As it turned out the author was Adolf Hitler. The lesson in the task was to test things and be more observant and find out the facts. The bible also tells us to test things that people say and compare them to the truth of God’s Word or to the heart of God.

    Although on this blog we may not be able to see a person’s heart but after getting to know someone we can tell where they are coming from or going to with what they write. It does take time to know them like BruceC was saying we can take them our of context too.

  8. foreverblessed says:

    For me it was a relief to find out the context of the bible:
    men’s redemption through the cross of Christ.

  9. xrgarza says:

    It is very easy to take things out of context when reading, writing, or even listening.

    That is why it is very important before I attempt to read, write, or listen to something that is important I need to pray that the Holy Spirit will allow me to receive or deliver the message in a way that will be most effective.

    It’s easy to read: “Pick up your cross, deny yourself, and follow me” and then say, oh that means I need to live in denial.

    Rocky Garza

  10. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I just wrote a whole page on my thoughts about context and then realised there is only one context for us who believe in Jesus.

    He is all, in all, and through all, and only in the context of Him does anything and everything hold together.
    The context of our lives is only made complete in Him.
    When we interact with someone either face to face or on a blog like this we must see every action through the context of the love we have for Jesus and the love He has for others.
    I guess, like Paul, I would say the greatest and most important context is seeing everything and everyone in the context of Love. (His Love)

  11. poohpity says:

    Mart, I was thinking about the times I have read your writing and understood it while others come from left field and after reading their responses I begin to think did I misunderstand what you wrote. I thought that was so funny how I can do that.

  12. poohpity says:

    I took hermeneutics through BSF in the mid 90’s. Very helpful class.

  13. Mart De Haan says:

    poohpity, the smile is on all of us. That’s why I love a good conversation. I have a co-worker who likes to say, “I know what I meant to say, but I have no idea what others heard.” Seems like in the best case– somewhere in the middle of talking to one another… we hear what we wish we had said :-)…

  14. poohpity says:

    Yes that is how I feel a lot!! ROFL

  15. poohpity says:

    Then I get confused all over again.

  16. Charis says:

    Very Cool, Bob! McQuilkin was a powerful good role model! I still remember his personal anecdotes of family life and the witness of his lifestyle. There’s someone in whom the life of Christ really flourishes.

    I was only there for a year in preparation for missions and I was much too young and conformist to get the most out of it (women could not study homiletics at that time). If I was independently wealthy I would go back to school and study for a PhD in theology. I love thinking and writing about God and the Bible.

  17. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Sometimes I have not been able to understand a word of your writing Mart and have had to wait for Steve to wake up or maybe Deb to say something before I could get into a train of thought. I have always either put it down to my lack of learning or the language difference between our cultures. Maybe I should do a hermeneutics course. I had to look that up on google, lol.
    Something to do with Interpretation of scripture I
    believe.
    I am begining to understand beter as I now know that you are trying to stimulate our thinking with suggestions rather than explain the whole topic in full.

    Bob

  18. xrgarza says:

    I am reminded of a song from the 70’s I think it’s called “why can’t we be friends” has a line in it that says, “I don’t speak right, but yet I know what I’m talking about”.

    Rocky

  19. davids says:

    Your posting and the responses so far point in two directions: understanding the context of what we read and hear, and understanding the context of those that we communicate to.

    When I first started reading the bible a few years back, I decided to read commentary alongside it. It was a bit of a slog, but it really helped me to understand the “context of the context”.

    Adam Clark and others helped me to understand what life was like for those ancient peoples, and to be able to reply to people. I could point out that while Old Testament laws might seem harsh, many of them were much more merciful than the lawless tribal vendettas of the day.

    Many New Testament events and parables are richer if one understands Jewish marriage customs, religious traditions, and lifestyle of the day. The RBC videos have been a great resource for that.

  20. davids says:

    Our communication has changed in ways that are hard to fathom. Previously, most of us only communicated to people that we knew, so we understood their context to some extent. Those that communicated to a wider audience were authors or speakers that often had the skill of shaping a message.

    This blog subject points to the challenge of this new age of many-to-many communication. It takes real work to consider the context of people that you have never met, and to adjust your message accordingly.

    Fortunately, the people here are very patient and forgiving about misunderstandings that arise.

  21. poohpity says:

    That is exactly a good way to put it Bob. He tries to stimulate our thinking. That is why I have always enjoyed this site. It prompts us to think beyond our little world and our finite understanding of all the wisdom of the bible. This is a journey that I do not believe any of us will ever fully understand until we get to heaven and meet the author face to face.

  22. poohpity says:

    I bet even when we get there we will forget all the questions we had in the first place because of the awe that will surround us.

  23. foreverblessed says:

    Maybe this is off-topic
    About preaching the Gospel, some broader context:
    The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4
    I believe that God, who knows this, makes people pray first, before He sends someone to preach. And that the intercessory prayer is a high calling.

  24. Regina says:

    Good Evening, BTA Family!

    Off topic here…
    It’s 1-11-11, and I didn’t want to let the day pass without making mention of that! :) Can you tell that I love dates with the same digits?! lol!
    By the way, it snow again yesterday in Texas! It was SO beautiful! ..eerily quiet and peaceful…the leafless tree branches covered with snow and the gray sky. We (Texans) don’t see very many days like that, so when we do, it’s really special.

  25. Regina says:

    Oh, and it was 21 degrees this morning with a wind chill in the single digits, but it’s gonna be 60 degrees on Sunday! Texas weather… gotta love it! :)

  26. oneg2dblu says:

    I thought that through, Asking SEEking, and Knocking, the Holy Spirit would move us to understanding. But, it seems taking hermaneutics,as the only way to make a valid contribution to the real context!
    I had a much different view of what participating here
    would produce. Call it,”My needed Weakness,” if you will! But, my experience has soon taught me, that I look too shallow perhaps, at the effects of any sin in one’s life! My heart is, and has been always, for that person who looks Christian, sounds Christian, claims to be Christian, but does not stress through, the Denial of Self, AND, Obedience to ALL God’s Word, as the most valued assets to having an Ongoing Relationship with Christ. For some believer’s, express their context of Salvation, has not yet brought that reality to them!
    Nor have I formed my communication effectivly enough, for it was either ignored through lack of response, or strongly objected to, in most voices here, and has failed to produce in me enough “unity” to continue!
    So, I leave it all in the Master’s Hands, to bring about change, to the now unchanged, who I rent my heart for. Not for my gain, but for Christ’s! I will not waste my words, nor His as well any longer, on this blog site. For, when ‘no change’ is seen as being OKAY, in the exchange of ideas that are taking place, I must move on, to more fertile territory.
    I will plant other ground. Leaving the watering,future
    producing, and the end product, to Him alone. For it is HE, Christ, who will not only Judge, but who can do more than we can ask for, or imagine. To Him be All Glory, Honnor and Praise!
    I Obediently Yeild to a context,that in my human-eutics, I am unable to grasp here. I will work out my salvation, as the Apostle Paul has instructed, in the context that moves me to, “Obedience” to become ever closer to the Saviour, I Seek continuously…
    To all here, Be Blessed!
    Thank you to some for your kind words, you know who you are! Gary

  27. poohpity says:

    Sad to see you go Gary. We are all on a journey to learn here and was hoping that you would join us in this process. You will be missed. God’s blessings and grace to you as well. Deb

  28. poohpity says:

    Looking at that poodle one would never guess they are one of the best hunting dogs.

  29. Charis says:

    Gary,

    I’ll be gone soon too, when my next semester of nursing school begins next week. Much as I LOVE to discuss and contemplate hermeneutics, theology, and Biblical study, economic realities intrude. You err to assume that those of us who have done some formal study dismiss the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

    Anyway, I’ll be back to popping in to read Mart’s devos in a 5 minute break from my studies (with no time for the discussions).

    My husband saw the tagline and said he just saw Mart in Israel on “Day of Discovery”. I thought that was neat since I read the blogs about his visit to Israel in Sept. It’s not even cable. I think it was TCT which we never used to get till he put a rotator on the antenna a couple weeks ago.

    It’s been fun!

    Love, Charis

  30. saled says:

    It’s interesting to think of the effect that the confusion of languages at the tower of Babel has had on our communication. I think the effect may have been more than just the creation of different languages.

    Mart mentions that somewhere in the middle of talking with one another, we hear what we wish we had said. Sometimes I hear what maybe I had thought, but didn’t have words for.

    Communication is often cumbersome and yes, context is so important. I remember as a young child hearing people talk about a nearby forest fire as being close to Marshall’s still. Actually, the comment was, “The fire could be close to Marshall’s, still.” But having seen the Beverly Hillbillies and knowing about Granny’s still, I was just horrified that well respected Marshall might have a still! The adults really enjoyed my confusion when I asked about it.

  31. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Gary,

    A life with Jesus is not about denial of self, as you said, but about a relationship of love with another person whereby we want to please Him and align our very being and thoughts with His.
    Not because we have to but because we want to and get pleasure from it.
    He came that we may have life and have it more abundantly.
    Sorry to see you leave, but it takes more than a few comments on here to understand what this place is about.
    Like anything in life, if it worth something it is worth working and waiting for.

    Bob

  32. mlj says:

    Gary
    I am new to the blog, but I hate to see you leave. Your passion for the Lord and love for what he loves seem genuine and are an encouragement to me. I pray that God will keep you and use you where ever you go.

    I would ask you to consider if it is possible that your frustrations here are just an attempt of the enemy to keep you from a place the Lord can use you to help others (even if that is not apparent to you) and where He can use others to refine you.

    No matter what, please do not allow the enemy to discourage you or cause any break in fellowship. I look forward to seeing you when we reach our real home.

    Sincerely
    Mark

  33. oneg2dblu says:

    I’m wounded, broken, and freshly restored, as the Lord did visit my last night,not all wee hours, but weeping as well.
    I have taken His Sweet Smelling Words and not cut the thorns away before I presented them, but He has watered me well, and I’m growing again.
    The the managers of this site I thank you for your ability to let others, rant, rave, rail and rage,knowing we all need a place outside ourselves, for a better perspective,and time to reflect on our emotionally driven needs…However they may present themselves.
    I have certainly touched the wounded, and for that re-opening,I ask only for a healing that Christ can bring to both of us.

  34. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob in Cornwall… you are my brother, and for what you bravely shared, you have opened my eyes to the suffering we all have in Christ. You have been a voice for my brothers, my three older siblings, who have not be able to share their pain, but have chosen separation instead.
    In our need to Follow the Master, in steps higher than we can handle alone, your help has been a catalist for me to be more receptive to their needs as well! Thank you, for your honesty. Gay was the “perfect word” for me to hear you say at the end of the day, because I so wanted, to fill the blank with another word, HIS! Because, at the end of the day, if He is really Our Saviour, we are all still, HIS!
    Your Love, will not be rejected, for there is NO LAW AGAINST SUCH THINGS. Gary

  35. SFDBWV says:

    Another old friend we have not heard from in a while is Frank (wretch-like-me). He and I both enjoyed the movie “Princes Bride”. In it, the Spaniard said that Fessic said if he got lost to go back to the begining.

    I have always found this to be good advice. Even before I seen the movie.

    Many times I have not quite gripped the meaning behind some people’s comments…So I go back to the begining and reread their comments to see if I missed something or just read it too fast…

    Sometimes that is all that is needed to clear things up, other times I could read the comment a dozen times and still be…lost.

    Of such comments here, I tend to just ignore it and move on to the next comment. Unless clarification is needed.

    An old saying that has become outdated is, “This reads like stero instructions.” I guess to bring that statement into this century, one would have to say, “It reads like computer instructions”

    The point is that sometimes the more a persons tries to be clear, by writing more words, the more confusing it can be to another….Too much *context*.

    We recieved a new 10 and 1/2 inches of snow overnight, it is stll blowing and snowing hard today, our high so far today is 17 degrees F.

    Hoping wherever you are, you are safe from the elements.

    Steve

  36. oneg2dblu says:

    poohpity… this site doesn’t need any police with you out there! LOL You stand in the gap, and you swing well, I fight back and I duck well, but your intentions have not gone without finding the target. Ouch! It made me want to fight, but also seek the reason, and reading the message about
    the answers to hard questions relating to the Teaching of the Doctrine of Eternal Salvation, gave me a better balanced understanding, about why we have such such Passion with our interpretive stance, as it is not always beneficial for all,
    as it served you well, and confused me!
    Your voice is valid and taken in love, although painful as mine, at times! Guilty Gary

  37. poohpity says:

    I was thinking about Paul in Romans 7. If one does not finish or read the whole chapter which for example the first verses 1-6 point us to obeying God the old way by following rules which do not produce the the good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. 7-14 shows that law was given to reveal sin and uses God’s good law for it’s own evil purposes, a burden to live under. 14-25 says that all our lives we will struggle with sin even though we want to obey God it is a dilemma. Then it comes to the very last verse which tells us it is done by what Christ did on the Cross he set us free from following the Law.

    If you stop there then you miss the lesson of grace revealed in Chapter 8 tell us we are not saved by following God’s law, we are freed from that and the condemnation it brought by Christ’s sacrifice. Our eyes are taken off ourselves and unto Christ that goes back to the first of chapter 7 to good works. The bible is a whole book if we stop here then we do not learn that the work of the Holy Spirit will produce the fruit of the Spirit found in Gal 5:22-23.

    So to take any of the bible out of context we do not get to understand what we have been given to really see it is nothing we can do in our own selves but it is God who wants us to know Him with all our hearts, soul and minds and we are given an example of what it means to show love to others through what Christ did then our eyes are back on God again.

    So context RULES. Do any of us have it all down pat, NO. Will we ever, NO. But Jesus DID.

  38. poohpity says:

    I learn all the time from everyone on here too. We are not perfect brothers and sisters on this journey but we can go together and become ONE in the Spirit of Christ. I screw up a real lot and I am so thankful for the forgiveness that has been shown to me.

  39. foreverblessed says:

    Off-topic,
    Gary, it takes time to get to know each other here. The first year I started, hardly anybody responded to what I wrote, and that’s immediately the point: that also takes killing the self: why do people have to respond to what I write? It is a lot of ego.
    But there is also a good side to responding to each other, we are social people, meant to communicate.
    I do not yet know you, you have posts which have a great zeal for Christ, but there are other posts you had which were harsh, you say it is the truth that is hard.
    But to tell someone, who thinks his salvation is sure, to repent, that to me is not the truth:
    There must be some refining going on, do you want that?

    Without fearing that you are watering down the truth.
    2 Timothy 4:8 There is laid up for me a crown of righteousness.
    If you believe in the Lord Jesus, if you have repented of sin, if you have been renewed in heart, you are one of the Lord’s people, and there is a place reserved for you, a crown laid up for you. (from a januari 9 devotion)

    So my question to you is, why say: You must repent!
    You could better search for common ground, then you would have found out that the person you talked to believes in Jesus, has repented of sin, and is renewed in heart.

    Another question to you is: why would such a person fear for their salvation? Can you explain that to me?

    I thank Mart for being so gracious as to let us talk things over. Better to do that, and see where my own views are wrong, maybe in the “discussion” I gain more insight.

  40. poohpity says:

    foreverblessed, what do you make in context of 2 Cor 2:7-8 and how we could apply that here?

  41. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Pooh….
    Gary, this is all said in love. I wish you would stay, and do some more acquintances here!
    So we could sharp one another. As your comments were not always welcomed with a big huray are you escepcially good for doing so to us all.
    With much love in Christ,
    Rie

  42. foreverblessed says:

    So Pooh, you are a good police..

  43. poohpity says:

    No foreverblessed I am a sinner saved by the Grace of our Lord, just like all of us here. Thank you for taking it in the Love that it was meant. Deb ;-)

  44. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    It seems when we take scripture in context it applies more to oneself than the other guy.
    Plank and Spec!
    :-)

  45. Regina says:

    Good Afternoon All

    Great comment, BruceC(1-11/8:09 am). Enjoyed reading what you said about people who knowingly or inadvertently take scripture out of context, and how we sometimes misjudge people (take people out of context) based on a few encounters with them.
    I had a better understanding of Mart’s intro comment after reading yours.

  46. Regina says:

    I agree with Charis, Mart, that poodle is very beautiful.

  47. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Good evening Regina,

    I hope you enjoyed your snow.
    Wet and windy and +12C here.

    Enjoy!

    Bob

  48. Regina says:

    You’re right, Poohpity (11-11/9:12 pm), I would never guess that that beautiful poodle was a good hunting dog. It looks like a “princess” dog.

  49. Regina says:

    Bob (NC) Thank you for sharing your thoughts…
    “Bottom line: I’m a sinner through and through, but redeemed by the blood of Christ. That’s good enough for me, and with that can enter into discussion on any subject although I may not have a clue what the discussion is all about.

    No one need quit blogging here because they have or have not credentials. Having a relationship with the Lord Jesus trumps all diplomas of any kind.”

    While I enjoyed many of my classes in college (I attended a Christian University), and, like my fellow bloggers, can definitely relate to the joy of studying God’s Word, what you shared really resonated with me. The common ground that we all share on this blog site is our love for our LORD & Savior, Jesus Christ. Think I remember Bob (Cornwall) mentioning something about our need to love one another. Jesus provides the wisdom, humility and willingness to converse with one another, no matter what the blog topic.

  50. Regina says:

    Hi Bob (Cornwall)! :)
    I did indeed enjoy the snow, but it didn’t last for very long (only for a day). That’s one of the reasons why I enjoy our snow season, it’s always very short-lived! Looking forward to the next visit.

  51. Regina says:

    Very cold in Texas today. Current temp (31 F degrees/-1 C degree).

  52. plumbape says:

    My computer crashed but I hooked up an old one that the Ape family used while living in the cave. lol

    Hermen Eutics… Iwas in the county jail with that guy, I think… May be taking that out of context.?

    I see Mart tactfully didn’t go in to the book about the what ladies want there pastor to know. Really would have the stones flying then.lol

    God bless you guys
    Michael (the ape in Indy)

  53. poohpity says:

    LOL!!!

  54. Charis says:

    This morning I grieve the death of one of my poodles- killed instantly in the road last night.

    The other day, I started a post about how our poodles are wonderful family pets- tolerant of children, smart AND I was going to put down how unconditionally loving and loyal and affectionate dogs are and that I think they all go to heaven. I thought better of it, not wishing to open up a theological can of worms.

    But now I know why that was on my heart. And I think Mart putting that picture in his post was timely.

  55. oneg2dblu says:

    Charis…I know your pain in the loss of an animal that we have loved, and has loved us, unconditionally! I beleive the part of them, that does go to heaven, is the indelible mark that their unconditoional love makes on our lives. How it changes us, and moves our spirit within us! Our Saviour Jesus Christ has that same unconditional love that draws us ever closer to Him! God feels your mourning heart, and heals it as well, with His Love! Be Blessed, Gary

  56. poohpity says:

    Charis, I am so sad about the loss of your family member. I pray that God will bring you comfort in this time of grieving. :-(

  57. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… thank you for words, they are a blessed balm for me. Keeping up the best I can right now has this answer on a rather belated schedule, but I am here again. Is the word REPENT, only for the unsaved? Once Saved, is there no recourse for us? Perhaps semantics is my problem, and there is a more appropriate word, for seeing your sin after Salvation, and a responce to it.
    For me, it is always an Act of Repenting for a tresspass against what I know is not the Will of God.
    So, not relying on a past work, which has failed to change me, when I see my sin still working in me,
    I repent, asking forgiveness to my God!
    Do I lack Conviction, in so doing, or just context? Gary

  58. bubbles says:

    Charis: So sorry to read about the sudden and tragic loss of your dog.

  59. Charis says:

    Gary,

    REPENT means to “change one’s mind”

    “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord” Acts 3:19

    IMO “repent and be converted” need happen only once. If it’s a genuine repentance and conversion, there’s no need to do it again and again.

    I also think focusing on SIN and “am I being good enough” puts the focus on ME instead of on the finished work of Calvary. We just read from Matthew 12 last night in family devos. Matt 12:43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”

    We asked ourselves the question “what does that mean?” We decided that if someone gets their act really cleaned up BUT fails to fill their cleaned up self with JESUS, they will get worse in the long run.

    Bottom line: Don’t focus on cleaning up your “house”, eliminating all the dirt[sin]. Focus on Jesus and leave it to Him to FILL UP your house.

  60. Charis says:

    Thanks for your kind thoughts everyone. God did prepare me, as I mentioned earlier. I told my two little boys (8 and 10) who loved her the most how God had prepared me, how I had seen the picture on this post and thought about how dogs go to heaven. They decided God had prepared them too because their favorite cartoon station just played “All Dogs Go to Heaven” for New Year’s :)

    Josiah (8) told me he never ever had anyone or any pet die before and its really hard. Though its a painful experience, in a way, I think it’s healthy because death is a reality of life on this planet. The blessing is she went very quickly with no suffering and she lived a very happy life.

  61. poohpity says:

    It is not a question of if we sin after we except Christ it is an answer of when we sin again. 1 John 1:8-10 tells us; If we say that we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves, and refusing to accept the truth. But if we CONFESS our sins to Him, He can be depended on to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong.[And it is proper for God to do this for us BECAUSE Christ died to wash away our sins] If we claim we have not sinned, we are lying and call God a liar, for He says we have sinned. LT

  62. oneg2dblu says:

    Charis… Have I been taught wrongly, that the Greek word translated “repent’ must not be interpreted exclusively from its etymological meaning,
    “change of mind?” It includes also sorrow for sins and failures as well as moral conversion. That is a quote from my Abbingdon Bible Commentary. It parrelells the exact usage, I have tried to convey. If that is out of context, for some, I am sorry for misleading my intentions. I was not talknig about the Salvation Experience, but how we are to respond to our continuing to sin, which is clearly outside of the Will of God, when I used the term repent. Gary

  63. oneg2dblu says:

    My whole directed mission,my conviction, my essence, my motivation, my burden, is directed to “the dirt” that
    does exist in the House of God today, and in the people who claim, or “wear the appearance” that they are Christian, but DO NOT CHANGE! No fruit found, for they are only filled with lip service, and socially connected to part of the church body, as they ar in the Members Only Club!
    When Christ encountered the fig tree, that also looked good from a distance, wearing its life in me greenery, but really had no fruit, he did not tell it, just be yourself, you’re okay, HE CHANGED IT, and He Changed it Forever!
    That has been my Salvation Experience as well, for I had no fruit to offer Him, and He Changed ME. I repented, and the change was enormously noticeable.
    I encountered so much change in my life, and lifestyle, it was very, very obvious, to anyone who was in my Sphere of Influence. For me personally,”If nothing changes,nothing changes!” Thank God for His change, that He has provided, and continues to provide in me, as I resist the evil in my life, and it flees from me!
    I work every day, in the dirt, producing fruit, through ever resisting the advances of Evil found in myself, and in other Christians that also should be, fig trees for HIM! To bare His Fruit, is to be a Blessing to others who will feed off your God-given Fruit!
    Gary

  64. oneg2dblu says:

    mls…Mark, what a spirit of encouragement you possess. It is definately a gift to fashion words as you have,
    and it has profoundly blessed me. I too, look forward to our future meeting, as we embrace in the “Unimaginable Glory” we will share in, with Our Lord in Heaven. At the end of this place we now call “today,” WE ARE HIS! Your Brother in Christ,GARY

  65. oneg2dblu says:

    xrgarza… 1-11 1:28 I read your context, and the ending to your contribution, as well. The context I SEE in it for me , is that if you, (GARY) are not Following Christ, then, you have neither picked up your cross, or denied yourself, for you are foolishly following your own sin desire instead. Gary

  66. oneg2dblu says:

    poohpity… 1-12 as delicately as I can, I know this will set you on fire, as I hear the distance siren coming… I trust you have prospered well from you class on “The Elements of Argument.” For in the context of your lesson, you shared, “We were given an article to read, and not given who the author was.” I find it most revealing, that when I share scripture with you, you find it out of context! The problem is, you know Who the Author is, and the author has said, 2 timothy 3:16 NIV “All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be throughly equipped for every good work.” To me, there is work!
    So, we argue… I say, The Law still stands, and is given in more than one context, it is given to show us today, how to do life right, how to be in the Will of God. Although we are not under it, we should not live without it, our being above it, by using context cancelling elements. You say, we are not under the law, and that to me, lets us do life Our Way, even lawless!
    Christ, did say, I have not come to take away the law, but to fulfill it!
    We must “put on” the Armor of God, and we must “Resist” evil.It is our daily ongoing work given through scripture, by God. God supplies the Armor, but we must work at putting it on! God supplies the Way Out for us to stand up under temptation, but we must Resist that temptation. God does His Work of Provision, and we must do ours! Following Christ takes daily work! The Elements of Argument, as you described, were taught without knowing who wrote the articles, but now instead of knowing the author, context alone becomes the KING SERVED! I ask only one question, “Does the sinner who is Called to Repentance, see context, or see Christ, not fully understanding the context of who HE is, or where they are going, but know only where they have come from? Maybe, my greatest blessing is that I will use His Word when he directs, regardless, and not question the context of why it may or may not be fully uderstood by the hearer. Perhaps, it is given to open the very dialoge of context, you and I share, as it grows us both! We base our argument on One Author’s words, and many interpretations! Yes, you were also given the author to shape his bent, and the time in history when it was written, but God’s Words are Eternal and not bound by time alone. either, His words, the Law, still are valid and used, to teach, to correct, and trian in righteousness, for it is written to the human condition, which if taken in context, means US today as well! This is given, and needs to be taken, In His Love, Gary

  67. Charis says:

    Gary Said: My whole directed mission,my conviction, my essence, my motivation, my burden, is directed to “the dirt” that does exist in the House of God today, and in the people who claim, or “wear the appearance” that they are Christian, but DO NOT CHANGE! No fruit found, for they are only filled with lip service, and socially connected to part of the church body, as they ar in the Members Only Club! -Gary

    I very much agree with all those concerns.

    I have a hard time figuring out WHAT happens to people to keep them so captive? But I think that Matt 12 insight I posted above from the other night gives a clue. And what you said and I quoted above gives the same clue. The key to the these people being cleaned up is RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS! or “CONNECTION” to use your word- connection not to an institution but to a PERSON

    A dear friend of mine has thought a great deal about this and I think God has showed her some things. She says “The preaching of faith and belief in Jesus has been replaced with the preaching of “forgiveness” of our sins. The focus has been turned from Jesus back to mortal man. Rather than preaching a need for the whole man to turn to Jesus (repentance), a simple message of putting away sins (forgiveness) is preached.”

    Can you see how that is the man from Matt 12 who is spit polishing his house but not filling it with Jesus?

  68. Charis says:

    Gary,

    God expects us to forgive someone who trespasses against us. Does that change them? No. Having sins forgiven changes nothing. If it did, God could just say “I forgive you all” and it’d be done.

    It was NOT finished until the second Adam came and REVERSED what the first Adam had done. “repent”=CHANGE OF MIND, made a different decision. Jesus came to replace an inheritance of FLESH and make us sons of the NEW ADAM, to make us NEW CREATIONS, so that we might be BORN AGAIN. The FLESH is supposed to be CRUCIFIED (see Gal 5).

    There’s a lot more to that than saying a sinner’s prayer or doing all kinds of good works or going to confession (old school RC) and thinking that gives me fire insurance.

    The death of the “old man” is not something that will happen unless JESUS is filling the “house”.

  69. oneg2dblu says:

    Charis… the man you speak of is the one with the evil spirit. That particular teaching is difficult for me at a glance, but Verse 50, the finish…sets so well with me, that my not getting an easy solution from the moving spirit, and the seven timesm at this time doesn’t need any more context that what you said, the death of the “old man” is not something that will happen, UNLESS, Jesus fills the house. That, I do embrace fully. AMEN!

  70. poohpity says:

    I just find it hard to condemn another of sin when I have sin in my own life not that I wake up every morning with plans to do so but at times I find I get angry with others is just one of my sins and so it is not up to me to point out the sin in anyone else there is only ONE without sin and that was Jesus Christ and he did not come to condemn the world of their sin but to save them and take the punishment for their sin.

  71. Charis says:

    Deb,

    We don’t know what motivates people and I agree that we should not character assassinate anyone ever. But if we see a behavior that is killing them, and maybe killing others (spiritually speaking), I think we err to ignore it.

    Personally, I learned a lot about marriage from Esther, Abigail, and Sapphira- all of whom dealt with some seriously bent marital situations. Abigail and Esther stood up for righteousness. Sapphira agreed with her husband in the lying to the Holy Spirit.

    I think what Sapphira did would be called “DENIAL” in recovery-speak. I had to renounce the Sapphira Spirit.

  72. oneg2dblu says:

    Like you said earlier, about counselors…In the voice of much counsel, even the counsel of imperfected man, with his imbedded sin nature, we are still to be the Hands, Feet and Mouth, of Christ to other imperfect sinners, who God puts in our life. Because we have “the way,’ to set the captives free! If God gives us, the eyes to see, and the heart to intervene, we without judging them, should share what God burdens us with, for them! Even our prayers! Even our Faith! Even our voice, can bring a wounded soul, a new direction, when we are guided by the Holy Spirit within us!

  73. Charis says:

    Also “Condemn” and point out/hold accountable are two different things.

    I agree with you that we should not be condemning anyone ever. And the reason I said I would be burned at the stake as a heretic is because I question whether God does either? God LOVES. It seems incompatible with eternal torture.

  74. poohpity says:

    I have not ever read when we are to be the mouth of the Lord unless it is to tell people that Jesus is God that he died for their sins was raised in three days. When we see a brother/sister in sin those who are spiritual are to address it to restore them gently so that we do not loose them and that takes a developing relationship with them not just a John the Baptist attitude. We restore a wounded soul by encouraging them and walking beside them to bring them back. Why did Jesus say, “those without sin cast the first stone” because we have to be very careful in this area. We address the sin one on one then we take two then if they still do not listen we take them before the church it is for restoration. There is so much more to all of this than just what some FEEL led to do there has to be much thought and soul searching involved.

  75. poohpity says:

    We have to be very careful here that we do not even partly presume to be another’s Holy Spirit which is the one who convicts someone of their sin. When I even get involved in these types of discussions my gut just aches because I know it is not healthy. What I do feel comfortable with is telling people to read the WHOLE bible not just parts and the understanding in these areas becomes more evident than just a cut and dried thing. That the Lord never gives up on any of us and has done the most wonderful thing by taking the punishment for the sin of the world.

  76. Regina says:

    So sorry about the loss of your dog, Charis.

  77. Charis says:

    poohpity,

    I suppose I used to think about like that? And so I didn’t confront sin in the camp, I just tried to be ever so gentle and respectful and pray and pray. . .

    and my children wound up with deep wounds

    What I SHOULD have done is confront the evil each and every time with great firmness and great confidence that GOD does not like it when the weakest among us are being hurt.

    Abigail didn’t read any modern day Christian marriage manuals! (1 Sam 25) She just undid what her husband had done that was going to destroy them all. She didn’t talk about him all “kid glove” either. Read 1 Sam 25:25.

    Jesus was pretty harsh at times in calling out problems in the camp. Read Matthew 23.

    IMO Christians are not taught enough that they need to be willing to receive correction and make amends. Look up the key word “correction” at Biblegateway for the importance of a willingness to receive correction.

  78. poohpity says:

    Hopefully we are all ready to receive correction that is a result of humility and understanding that we all fall short. None of us are perfect and have many areas that need work. Jesus calling out problems in His camp was His job and most of the time it was with people who considered themselves better than some others or more religious even treating the house a God as a way to make money. Although Jesus being fully God and fully man did not gasp His rights to do that but made Himself a servant and as a sacrifice for many to die in their place to take the punishment for their sins past, present and future that is for believers as well. That is Grace. God’s undeserved merit and forgiveness. It is Jesus’s example we are to follow not John the Baptist.

    I did not say in my post that we are not to confront sin in the church because the bible says we are but it has to be done very carefully with one’s own weaknesses in consideration.

  79. Charis says:

    “Hopefully we are all ready to receive correction that is a result of humility and understanding that we all fall short. None of us are perfect and have many areas that need work.”-poohpity

    Indeed. Greek hamartia=”miss the mark”=sin

    I don’t buy penal substitutionary atonement [God’s wrath poured out on Jesus]. That sounds more like an abusive earthy father to me. I lean toward Christus Victor atonement- Jesus won a victory over Satan on the cross. Sinful Flesh formerly ruled by “the god of this world” (2 Cor 4:4) can now be crucified by the power of the Holy Spirit and the circumcised heart rather than through obeying laws written on stones.

    I certainly don’t have everything figured out, Deb. I DO know that I used to “miss the mark” when it came to sticking up for myself and my children because I was paralyzed by fear of “sinning” and I believed too much bad doctrine about how wives are supposed to be. God doesn’t like abuse and oppression, and God is pleased when we stand up against it.

  80. Charis says:

    “penal substitutionary atonement”- the theory that Jesus the innocent was PUNISHED by an angry God for the sins of _________ the guilty. I’m sorry to say that I have experienced personal suffering from the choices of those who thought that they had a “free pass” because God can’t hold them accountable for _________ and _________ and ___________ because they prayed the sinner’s prayer or went to confession (RC) and they served God in __________ position.

    Jesus substitutionary atonement is about PERFECT FLESH being crucified so that imperfect flesh can be BORN AGAIN and TRANSFORMED into HIS LIKENESS- “he is the firstborn among many brethren“. But a person must choose to “take up his cross” and “die to SELF”; to be “crucified with Christ”.

    Churchy whitewash over selfish rotten flesh tramples the blood of Christ underfoot.

    The GOOD NEWS is that we can have VICTORY over the FLESH through Jesus Christ our Lord! We can walk in His Steps. We can reflect HIM. Anything that the Bible says we can do and be, HE will EMPOWER us to do and be…. IF… we submit…

  81. Charis says:

    . . . to being filled with the Spirit

  82. Charis says:

    To me, that we can be transformed into the image of Christ, that God is ready willing and able to EMPOWER us to be Christlike is the GOOD NEWS.

    To me, a father dumping wrath and punishment on his son whom he claims to love is not “good news”.

    I really doubt you can understand where I am coming from and I’ll just stop there because I don’t wish to step on anyone’s toes.

  83. oneg2dblu says:

    ” Disturb us, Lord, when we are too well pleased with ourselves, when our dreams have come true because we have dreamed too little, when we arrive safely because we sailed too close to the shore.
    Diturb us, Lord, when with the abundance of things we possess, we have lost our thirst for the waters of life, haven fallen in love with life, we have ceased to dream of eternity, and in out efforts to build a new earth, we have allowed our vision of the new heaven to dim.
    Disturb us, Lord, to dare more boldly, to venture on wider seas, where storms will show your mastery, where losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizon of our hopes, and to push us into the future in strength, courage, hope, and love.
    This we ask in the name of our Captain, who is Jesus Christ.” -Francis Drake

  84. poohpity says:

    I believe that Jesus was God incarnate and gave His life for us. Not forced but surrendered. The OT teaches that there has to be a sacrifice given to make an atonement for sin. While they (sacrifices) had to be done repeatedly by the High Priests on the day of atonement this was the final one done by our Highest of High Priests. That is the “GOOD NEWS”. So it was not a father dumping the wrath on his son. It was the Father taking on human form being fully God and fully man to lay His life down as the final atonement for the sin of the World. No other sacrifice would have covered the sins of the world except that which God prepared in advance that He did for us. That is the basics of the Christian faith.

    It would seem that trying to put a human race component and trying to liken this to some sort of human reasoning and assumptions have been where some problems may lie. Yes some different religions have created many problems in this area and some bad parenting may cause a person to not understand this because of their bent toward punishment. There is no longer punishment for sins the debt has been taken care of by Jesus.

  85. poohpity says:

    The only time that there was a separation from the God aspect of Jesus is when the sins of the world rested on His body while He hung on the Cross.

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