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Can Love Envy?

Mart De Haan Posted by Mart DeHaan
May 26th, 2011
67 Comments » 

Paul says love does not envy. The New Living Translation says, “Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud.” (1Cor 13:4)

Yet Moses said to Israel, “You shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their gods… (Numbers 34:14).

So we’re faced with a couple of questions. Are envy and jealousy the same thing? Can love envy? Can love be jealous?

Complicating matters, English dictionaries show that, while the terms can have different meaning, depending on context, each can also be used to explain the other.

What makes the most sense to me is that envy and jealousy can be good and helpful if expressed with a loving motive. Both can be dangerous if expressed without love.

Since God is by nature loving, his jealousy is always expressed  for our good and best interests…

When Paul says “love does not envy” he means that love does not resent the successes or possessions of others.

Can you think of ways in which envy could be expressed in love?

 


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67 Responses to “Can Love Envy?”

  1. SFDBWV says:
    May 26, 2011 at 5:56 am

    I have stated this story before, but for me it answers Mart’s question of whether love can be envious.

    I never once in my life wanted anything that others possessed, I have desired to have many of the gifts of the Spirit, but nothing anyone else possessed.

    Not until I was faced, for these past 12 years, with my son having to deal with all of the difficulties he suffers. I have had to watch as well as explain to him, while others went on with their lives, he has been denied so much.

    He did nothing so terrible as to be given such a fate, yet it is his to bear. Each day as no one calls or comes to visit him, each day as I have to help him stand, each day as he can’t remember whether he had eaten today or what day it is, each day as he asks why many dozens of times; I find that I want for him to have the normal live so many others take for granted, or throw away.

    So I would suppose, you could say if envy is wanting something others have, then I am guilty of being envious for my son to be able to stand and walk, remember his life, use his left hand again, play the guitar as he once could, have friends, get a job, have a wife and a family of his own, to have what he tells me he wants….His own life.

    I love him deeply and I find myself sometimes angry that he is denied the same things that others have. If that is envy, then my love envies for him. If it is wrong for me to do so, then I bear the stain of being envious because of my love for another.

    Steve

    Thank you Mart for your explanation in the last topic.

  2. alegria says:
    May 26, 2011 at 6:22 am

    Steve,

    My heart and prayers go out to you as you care for your son. I know that God is pleased at the heart of a servant, and a dad, that you have for your boy.

    In a similiar way, I think the heart of our Father God is jealous for us to have the fullest life He created for us to have. When we allow idolotry to consume our lives, He is jealous. He wants only for us to desire what He wants for us………fellowship with Him, service for His sake, joy in His presence, a fruitful life.

    I’m not God, thus I’m not able to have that kind of pure jealosy. When I’m jealous, I can usually trace it back to unmet expectations of what I think my life should be. And usually those expectations have little to do with seeking God.

    I’m off to help Mom (age 82) take her weekly shower.

    Thanks for helping me examine my own heart today Mart.

    Pam

  3. nezzar says:
    May 26, 2011 at 6:40 am

    As I understand it the difference between jealousy and envy is that envy has a destructive nature to it. If I can’t have it then no one will because I will destroy it. Like a certain sports star who killed his x and her boyfriend when he found them together in what used to be his house. He couldn’t have her anymore so he killed both of them. Jealousy on the other hand is not as destructive to the object of the jealousy just to the person who is jealous. However I think that these terms have been confused as sinanyms for so long that even the dictionary doesn’t nessessarilly keep it strait anymore.

    I think that there is an other form of jealousy that is different. Such as when someone gets to know you and they see the relationship that you have with Jesus and they want that too. Or sometimes I tell Mart that I want his Job. The difference is that I am not going to try to get Mart fired in order to get his job, I just wish my job would send me to places that were green instead of brown, and that the people that I worked with were focused on how to win people to the Lord instead of… well I’m sure you can guess. Also Paul talks about winning gentiles to the Lord in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy. So that seeing the gentiles with God they may also turn to him. That’s a good form of jealousy. Wanting God is always a good thing.

    I guess when God is jealous of our worship He sees the self destructive path we are on. I think that would be similar to one of our children falling in love with a drug dealer and now they are doing and selling drugs. Destroying the drugs and taking the girl away would hurt her, but would be for her own good. So I can understand why God gets Jealous when we worship anything other than Him.

  4. oneg2dblu says:
    May 26, 2011 at 7:08 am

    nezzar… you have nailed it! When we start allowing the “world’s dictionary,” to define its version for us, and ignore God’s purposed position when He uses a word, we begin to ever so slightly slip into the world view, and that is never where God wants his children to be.
    We had a teaching last night, where the Pastor took the bible opened it to the center, pulled the ribbon out of it’s prior position, and layed it down right in the middle, saying this is what I show my children, you need to be in the Center of God’s Word to be fully protected. That to me… was right on message!
    Stay safe out there, brother, we back here depend on what you are doing for us today! Stay focused, and centered on the Path and Position that God has placed in your life today! Be Blessed, Gary

  5. oneg2dblu says:
    May 26, 2011 at 7:16 am

    Steve… That message is for you as well, and all of the brothers and sisters, who must be in a world where we are constantly challenged, constantly enticed, constantly given a mixed message. An almost perfect looking word, but if we are centered, “on task for Christ,”we will have much more Success and Blessings, to Praise Our Lord at the end of even today!
    So, the meaning of the world’s words, can’t have us committed to their design. We are His Possession, and not of this world’s ways, when we are focussed right in the middle of God’s Grand Design! We are His! Gary

  6. nezzar says:
    May 26, 2011 at 7:53 am

    Mart

    You are cheating by using the same pictures over again. We want to see more pictures, not the same ones again :)

  7. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 26, 2011 at 8:09 am

    There is a big difference between Jealousy and Envy.

    A dog will Jealously gaurd his bone because it is his.
    A husband will Jealously gaurd his wife if she strays and looks at another man.
    It is a type of anger we feel when something we regard as ours is being pursued by someone else.
    God is jealous of us when we stray and seek other ways and other gods.
    To Envy is a selfish action. It is similar but in reality almost opposite to jealousy.
    When we envy we are coveting something or someone who does not belong to us. It is a type of theft with our eyes and mind. Envy leads to bitterness, but righteous jealousy leads to love and action to protect and save.
    Putting your arm around your spouse is a way of showing love, protection and that you are jealous for them.

    Jealousy is possesive by nature so has to be tempered by love. Envy is an out and out sin as it wants what it doesen’t have.

    Bob

  8. oneg2dblu says:
    May 26, 2011 at 9:38 am

    bob in cronwall… sounds like envy, parallels lust.
    “Out and out sin as it wants what it doesn’t have.”
    The lust of the eyes, leads to the lust of the mind, which controls the members,and soon it becomes they we no longer have control!
    I’m thinking of David looking from his roof top, already hafving many wives, but with envy and lusting, and the sin that followed, surely that was envy!
    So, to me envy is another name for lust. Gary

  9. SFDBWV says:
    May 26, 2011 at 10:13 am

    Nezzar, Just a little foot note for you; When I was in the very green jungles of Viet Nam in June of 67 we all were hoping that we would get to see some brown when the “Six Day War” began, however the Israeli’s ended the entire matter and we had to stay put with monsoon rains and all the lovely things that creep and crawl in the jungle.

    Just remembering that one man’s poison is another man’s meal.

    The little community I live in had the national pride of being singled out during the Second World War, for having sent more men to the war effort by percentage of population then any other municipality in the entire USA.

    We have a monument in our park that names every veteran from the War with Mexico thru to the current wars, that were from our community, well over 400 names, some did not come home and for them we have little white crosses beside their names.

    Thank you for your service and keep your head down.

    Steve

  10. poohpity says:
    May 26, 2011 at 10:38 am

    Even though God is jealous for our time and attention because of His ultimate love he allows us freedom to make our choice. I can not remember the author, it may be J. Segal, who wrote, “If you love something let it go free”. Without love, jealously is a consuming, controlling fire.

    I think envy with love would be expressed by seeking something we want yet allowing God to help us obtain it while not injuring anyone else to get it. Trusting God for something and being thankful for where we are now but not settling to stay there. If we envy and it promotes change rather than self pity I think we can find love in it. If we start the self pity then we are so focused on what we do not have we do not develop what we do have and become thankful in every situation.

    So I think envy without love causes anger, depression, malice and rage. Add some love in there and it may push us to change and grow.

  11. poohpity says:
    May 26, 2011 at 11:01 am

    I actually envy people who can make words come alive to express themselves. In that envy with love I can learn how to do it without I just remain jealous and stay where I am and not grow.

  12. foreverblessed says:
    May 26, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    God is a jealous God:
    Song of Solomon 8
    6 Place me like a seal over your heart,
    like a seal on your arm;
    for love is as strong as death,
    its jealousy[a] unyielding as the grave.[b]
    It burns like blazing fire,
    like a mighty flame.[c]
    7 Many waters cannot quench love;
    rivers cannot wash it away.
    If one were to give
    all the wealth of his house for love,
    it[d] would be utterly scorned.

    You could say that God’s love for us is like a consuming fire:
    The fire refines us, blazes everything away that does not belong to God.
    How jealous He is for me, how wonderful to meditate over that fact.

  13. poohpity says:
    May 26, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    I agree whole heartily about God’s jealousy but it is tempered by love. I do not know as a human being if I have the ability to do that. In His unfathomable desire for the best for us that consuming love also gives us total freedom to accept or reject it. Very good point, foreverblessed.

  14. bratimus says:
    May 26, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    Envy can lead you into coveting

    Jealouies can lead to Death or murder

    Through each you can be tempted to sin.

    The One True God who is the One true Judge His Jealouy can turn to wrath which is Judgment.

    I don’t place God’s jealousy and the jealousy of man in the same catagory.

  15. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 26, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    Yes Gary, envy is a type of lust.
    I was going to add that but forgot.
    And Jealousy is a form of rage/anger that is a consuming fire if we let it be.
    Our God is a God that consumes with fire all that is not of Himself.
    He is, as foreverblessed said, a Jealous God.
    That is why He loves us so much and has given us a way, by His all consuming Love, to be with Him forever.
    I don’t think envy can love or be exspressed as love.
    Envy is the desire to have something that is not yours.
    “The grass is always greener on the other side or in your next door neighbours back yard”.
    Jealousy is an emotion and a mind set that God has given us, we are made in His image remember, it is to help us protect and gaurd the things we love, including our relationship with God.
    It is satan who envies our relationship with God and he himself wants to be in the place of God.
    Remember he tempted Jesus to acknowledge him as lord and master. he wants that same central place in our hearts to.
    satan is jealous of us as well as envious, that is when the two words become the same.

    Bob

  16. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 26, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    “satan is jealous of us as well as envious, that is when the two words become the same.”
    satans jealousy/envy is pure rage, without love, in otherwords because he cannot have us he hates us to death literally!

  17. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 26, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    But Praise God!

    Jesus came to bring us from death into Life and Life Full and Abundant!!

    Amen!!!

  18. poohpity says:
    May 26, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    Aaaamen– Aaaamen–Aaaamen– Amen-Amen!! You better be glad you can not hear me sing that, you would have to ask what I did with the money my mom gave me for singing lessons, lol!!!

  19. Mart De Haan says:
    May 26, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    nezzar, whoops on the repeat of pic. I was taken in by reading into the 2 sheep a longing for greener pastures, or 4 something, and forgot that I had already used that one…

  20. oneg2dblu says:
    May 26, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    It is all, context and semantics, as we try to define,
    these two words, envy and jealousy. It is ringing of, which came first… the chicken or the egg?
    In my lame attempt, I’ll put it this way. If I go down to the dealership and see a really interesting car, I may find myself lusting over it. Nothing sexual going on. So, that is probably not a sin, because it does not belong to anyone yet. But, if my neighbor comes down the block with that very car, the one “I” wanted, and I become jealous of his owning it, then it becomes a coveted sin! If on the other hand, I run over to his house exclaiming how happy I am, that he could get to own one, then the whole thing about my envy changes!

  21. nezzar says:
    May 26, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    SFDBWV

    Thanks for the perspective. I guess the grass is always greener.

    poohpity

    I think that you are right, ether jealousy or envy of someone else’s stuff, spouse, land, etc. poisons the mind. Since all thoughts eventually turn to action we need to watch what we think. If anyone doesn’t believe me then why does Jesus say that if anyone hates his brother he’s guilty of murder. In the old testament you had to kill your neighbor to be guilty. In the new you only have to think about it. I think that is because we now have the grace of God to free us from bondage to sin and it starts in the thoughts. I know that’s a side topic but I think its appropriate here as I don’t want to go too far down the road of saying that jealousy is OK. Where is the deviding line of good vs. bad jealousy? I think English Bob was right one loves and protects, and one stews and becomes angry and plots evil. And wonders why don’t I have that instead of being content in Jesus.

  22. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 26, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    I guess you have hit the nail on the head Gary!

    Envy and Jealousy are both condependant and context dependent.
    What you said proves you can kill the sin of envy by turning into an act of encouragement and love.
    I think that maybe the Jesus in us and not a natural thing in the flesh, but does go to show that envy can be turned into an act of love.
    Like a man and woman becoming one flesh. What is good for one and may be envied by the other must in turn be good for the other.

    Just a thought!

    What a thought provoking subject. Who would think two little words that mean almost the same could be so interesting when you question their usage.

    Bob

  23. bratimus says:
    May 26, 2011 at 5:17 pm

    If it wasn’t for sin, we wouldn’t have to know words such as Jealous and envy.

    The Bible tells us that we can’t messure or understand God through human standards.

    Just as the God jealous characteristic towards His creations can’t be compare to the jealousy of satan.

    The quetion is can love envy?

    envy comes from wants, love fills every need.

  24. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 27, 2011 at 4:02 am

    All I know is I am thankful my God is a jealous God and that He cares enough about me to send His Son to die in my place.
    Raising Him from the dead to sit at His right hand as a priest to interceed for me.

    satan on the otherhand is not jealous of me but of the place The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have in my heart.

    Bob

  25. alegria says:
    May 27, 2011 at 6:31 am

    Thanks for all the deep thoughts everyone. I’m just feeling overwhelmed by the incredible jealousy of God, who loved me so much he would pay the ultimate price for my protection – the life of his perfect son, to save a very sinful me from the enemy.

  26. SFDBWV says:
    May 27, 2011 at 6:39 am

    Can Love Envy?” I have known men as well as women who have lived a horrible life because they loved someone so utterly that jealousy ate away all peace of living away from them. Jealousy is different than envy. The jealousy of the people I speak of killed the love the other person held at one time for them.

    Jealousy is a destructive force and causes harm to all involved.

    Envy is that little subtle desire to have what others already do, whether one wants to accept it or not in life we all envy at one time or another.

    Greed and envy are two items that often go together. However desire and envy do as well.

    Some people are guilty first of coveting something another has before it blossoms into a more direct act of aggression. Coveting and envy are very similar. In the Hebrew to covet is not the same as envy but in the Greek it is used the same way, as is jealousy.

    The matter being can love envy? The answer being is it a healthy love or an unhealthy love.

    Pure love as defined in 1 Corinthians 13 says that love envies not. For me this means that if I love another, I do not envy what he has or desire to have it from him.

    It does not go on to say that I shouldn’t want to have something like what he has, but that I should not want that which another already possesses. Grieving because I don’t.

    Being in a state of envy, a person centers their eyes upon something that another has and their whole heart and mind focuses upon a deep desire to posses it.

    If I were to say that a person who seen the peace of Christ and the light of the Holy Spirit in me and was envious of it and desired it for themselves, would that be wrong?

    Only if that person wanted to take it away from me so that they could have it instead of me.

    Love, real healthy pure love changes the definition and meaning of everything, especially envy or jealousy or desire.

    Put in their proper place it is ok to desire salvation even though another already possesses it. One could envy another and it lead to their own salvation.

    We read of a story of a man who wanted to have the “power” of the Holy Spirit, even offering money for it (sounds a little familiar doesn’t it?). His envy for what he seen the Disciples be able to do, came from a wrong base in his heart.

    Yet Paul tells us to be covetous of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. What is different here? The desire to be able to do the will of God for the betterment of others not for oneself.

    In looking through the Concordance envy has different usages, often used as a good thing not an evil thing, so for me the answer is….Yes Love can Envy.

    Steve

  27. tracey5tgbtg says:
    May 27, 2011 at 8:10 am

    There are a lot of good and thought-provoking posts in answer to this question. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to share your ideas. I’ve gone back and forth on what I think is a good answer to the question Can love envy?

    The main thought that comes to my mind is that envy must be like anger in that God can handle it, and supposedly it is possible to have righteous anger, but for people these are things that so easily lead to bitterness in the heart and sin instead of changing things for the better.

  28. poohpity says:
    May 27, 2011 at 9:39 am

    Wow!! Wouldn’t it be nice for those who do not know the Lord to envy our relationship with Him enough to want to have it too. If they saw faith, peace, joy, love, dependence, kindness, gentleness, self control, humility and long suffering rather than bitterness, judgment, anger, malice, condemnation and criticism.

  29. poohpity says:
    May 27, 2011 at 9:42 am

    I forgot self righteousness.

  30. oneg2dblu says:
    May 27, 2011 at 9:58 am

    Good day… I have enjoyed all the comments, as well as Mart’s ever challeging and changing, questions.
    Here is one reason why “every word,” for us, has a duplicity of meanings. We are Born Again with a renewed mind and in that renewing, comes another definition to our old nature and our old mind, two directly opposed positions. We have learned, Praise God, that only One can be Served! We know both meanings now, and now,
    We can choose to Sereve the Higher Meaning, that was not available to us, prior to the Renewing of our Minds! Every thought, now becomes Captive to Christ,
    if we truly Serve Him! Gary

  31. poohpity says:
    May 27, 2011 at 10:22 am

    Paul in Romans 11:13-15 wanted to insight the Jews to envy the gentiles and their relationship God so that they could be saved.

  32. dodi says:
    May 27, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Sometimes we will be driving down the road and my husband lovingly will say ” honey, look @ that beautiful car, I wish I had it and he could have a better one”
    I believe that is envy w/ Love _____

    To have inward desires without malicious or covetous intent isn’t harmful to others or our own souls.

  33. SFDBWV says:
    May 28, 2011 at 6:33 am

    Even though the topic heading is envy, Mart also brought jealousy to the table in his remarks. Though I see a very clear division between these two emotions they are entwined in explanation.

    When we read that God is referred to as being jealous, often it is used in the sense of being zealous, but just as often it is written in the sense of its being in a bad way. Like a husband being jealous over his wife.

    I have never seen a good marriage where either the husband or the wife is so possessive of the other as to evoke that ugly nature of jealousy. However I do see where that use of the word can be used to make men understand how God feels concerning mankind especially His chosen bride.

    When Paul uses the word jealousy in 2 Cor. 11: 2 it is explained in the concordance as being “the good kind of jealousy”. So I am left with an understanding that there is a better word out there that can state a good kind of jealousy, perhaps it fits in there somewhere in the plethora of definitions that fall under the title of “Love”.

    If any of you have ever been in love with someone, I mean totally head over heals in love, that teenage kind of love that fully consumes your thoughts and actions, perhaps you can begin to understand how God feels about us, and how He can be jealous and it not be a bad thing. Because He won’t move on to allowing jealousy to evoke the evil that it is a doorway to.

    Foggy here, heavy rains yesterday.

    Steve

  34. nezzar says:
    May 28, 2011 at 6:50 am

    Maybe I’m overly paranoid, but after reading a few of these posts I fear that maybe we’ve caused some confusion over the meaning of words. I know we shouldn’t argue over words, but I’ll tell you why I thinks its important later.

    Jealousy at its most fundamental meaning is to want what someone else has. It carries with it anger and a motivation to theft or violence against the person possessing the object of Jealousy.

    Envy is simmular except that it also carries with it the idea of destruction of the object envied.

    As an example to make this more clear lets say a certain man, call him A wants woman B, but She’s married to man c. this is coveting. I becomes jealousy when man A starts to become angry at man C just for having her. He may try to steal her by talking too her when man c is not around or by kidnapping her. Or perhaps Man A will try to injure or kill man C so that woman B can be his. When these plots don’t work he transitions to envy and starts to think things like if I cant have woman B then no one will I will kill her. Both of these are evil. I think that when God uses the term or it is used of him it is used as a metaphor. His loving desire for us is protective and He wants to keep us from other gods. This is for our own good. Since the best thing for us is a relationship with Him it is always in our best interest for God to bring us back to Him.

    I have to answer the question above NO, because Envy or jealousy don’t have the best interest of the other person at heart. However I do think that the words “Envy” and “Jealousy” can be used as metaphors for how God feels about us when we go to other gods.

    Why are these words important. Because we are on the internet and there are a lot more people who read these posts than who write, and I do not want to contribute to confusion for those less familiar with Christianity or our lingo, or who may be seeking, but as yet lack the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth.

  35. nezzar says:
    May 28, 2011 at 6:55 am

    Steve

    Thank you for expressing my thoughts so eloquently. Get out of my head.

  36. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 28, 2011 at 7:31 am

    Yes Steve,

    I had that “head over heals” in love feeling when I was younger, and it tends to poses every waking thought.
    I had it when I first met Jesus for several years, then I met someone else and they became the centre of every thought to a point of posesivness and Jealousy.
    God must have been so grieved when He ceased to be my first love.
    I have never got back to that feeling of love for Jesus since and I often pray that I will.
    To get over the other love I had to pretend they were dead otherwise I would constantly be thinking of what they were doing or who they were with out of Jealousy and Envy. That took nearly ten years to get over.

    Jesus was my first love and now I have to fight within myself to put Him there again. A ten year battle again?

    Bob

  37. SFDBWV says:
    May 28, 2011 at 8:51 am

    Though we began it yesterday, today begins our Memorial Day weekend. Here in my world it is something of a homecoming as many people will come to decorate the graves of their departed loved ones.

    My wife Glenna is set up at the cemetery with an umbrella table, in order to collect donations from anyone wishing to help pay for the continued care of the cemetery.

    She has done this for me since her coming home to be my wife and does so because it is something she can do that helps me, as I can not leave Matt for any long periods.

    Saturday is most often the day I use to rest, nothing about its being in alignment with the 7th day, it just works out it is my best opportunity most times to do so.

    Today though I am baking cookies and fixing food that people can eat on the run, as there will be people stopping by here to say hello and visit for a bit.

    It looks as though the weather is going to cooperate today as it did not yesterday, I am grateful for that.

    I just wanted to share a little of my life here with you all, and hope that where ever you are today and through the weekend that you are able to enjoy some of life.

    I especially hope that none of you are burdened with the pain that envy and jealousy can bring, but rather that where ever you are today you can love and be loved.

    Steve, Glenna and Matthew.

  38. poohpity says:
    May 28, 2011 at 9:37 am

    Steve, I told Glenna the other night that I thought she was wonderful for doing that every memorial weekend even when she does not feel well. Praying the weather stays nice for this event in your town.

    I was just thinking that it would be so neat if we guarded our relationship with the Lord as much as we do with other human beings. If we were jealous for our time with Him and envied that relationship so much that we protected it with every thing in our lives.

  39. poohpity says:
    May 28, 2011 at 9:42 am

    Bob, we all have seasons in our faith walk but I will be praying that the Lord will ignite that fire again in your life as well as in all of our lives to help us cling to that first love again. For God to help us remember what brought us to Him in the first place and to guard our hearts from anything or anybody that would push Him out of that primary position.

  40. xrgarza says:
    May 28, 2011 at 11:07 am

    Mart,

    I’ve thought of this myself I’m not an English major but I know that the English language is not nearly as precise as the Hebrew language. It would be interesting to see exactly how it is written in Hebrew and have someone explain it verbatim.

    Rocky

  41. foreverblessed says:
    May 28, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    James 4:5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely?[a]

    footnote a: Or that God jealously longs for the spirit that he made to live in us; or that the Spirit he caused to live in us longs jealously
    Amplified bible:
    Or do you suppose that the Scripture is speaking to no purpose that says, The Spirit Whom He has caused to dwell in us yearns over us and He yearns for the Spirit [to be welcome] with a jealous love?
    For a context: v4 You [are like] unfaithful wives [having illicit love affairs with the world and breaking your marriage vow to God]! Do you not know that being the world’s friend is being God’s enemy? So whoever chooses to be a friend of the world takes his stand as an enemy of God.

    I think this verse means that God longs for us, His Spirit wants to connect to ours. So God envies us, and GOd is love, so envy can only be expressed in love when it is expressed in God’s Spirit:

    v6-7
    But He gives us more and more grace ([a]power of the Holy Spirit, to meet this evil tendency and all others fully). That is why He says, God sets Himself against the proud and haughty, but gives grace [continually] to the lowly (those who are humble enough to receive it).

    7So be subject to God.

  42. foreverblessed says:
    May 28, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    Bob in Conrnwall, maybe you could turn it around, it is Jesus who has envied you. He has longed for you all these years, and still does so. Isn’t that a deep thought, He yearns for the spirit in us, I mean: all of us.

  43. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 28, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    foreverblessed

    Yes, you are right!

  44. royalpalm says:
    May 28, 2011 at 5:15 pm

    Jealousy is combination of emotions such as anger, sadness, resentment and disgust over an anticipated loss of something that the person values, or feels entitled to, particularly in reference to a human connection.

    The Scriptures describes God as a jealous God. Because He created us and redeemed us, God deserves our highest praise, worship, and adoration. He has the right to be jealous for our love and affection.

    It is interesting to note that the word “jealous” is mentioned 11 times in New King Jmes version -(8) describing God in regard to His relation with His chosen people Israel;(2) of a husband-wife relationship, and (1)of the church and Christ. Idolatry and adultery are often mentioned together as sins of those who turn to other gods.

    Envy on the other hand, desires and covets someone else’s possession or attributes. A word search in the New King James version shows 23 usages of “envy” – all with negative connotations – alongside self-seeking, deceit, greed, strife, malice, deceit, discontent…

    Paul clearly said “love does not envy”…In this regard, I will be careful of how I use the word “envy”. As ambassadors of Christ, we have to be mindful of the words that we use – or we will be like the enemy who uses God’s words to deceive and manipulate.

  45. bratimus says:
    May 28, 2011 at 6:15 pm

    We need to remember that the english language is a language that evolves and simplifies words down to one meaning. When some words use to have different meanings in the context what is written in or spoke. Envy could have a meaning like lnoging for or desire for. So when you read the God spirit envy to be with us. God’s spirit longs or desires, env y is a word that means want. God’s spirit wants to be with what He created in man the soul the spirit.

  46. poohpity says:
    May 28, 2011 at 9:00 pm

    royalpalm, we also have to be certain that we do not take things out of context but if all things are tempered by love things that were meant to harm can be turned to good. God does such a inexpressible, unexplainable job of doing that while we as human beings can ruin just about anything when we lean on our own understanding.

  47. Jason says:
    May 28, 2011 at 9:16 pm

    It’s basically been said already but I wanted to throw in my two cents. A pastor said the following and it stuck in my mind.

    Jealousy: A woman saying, “I want a husband like she has.”

    Envy: A woman saying, “I want her husband.”

    I also agree that God’s emotions are not like ours and our thoughts are not like His. I believe He is Love so everything He does or says is rooted in Love.

    Happy long weekend to all in the States, we had ours last weekend. (Victoria Day)

  48. royalpalm says:
    May 28, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    Hello, Bratimus,

    Thanks for your comment.The verse that you refer to is in James 4:5. It is unfortunate that the word “envy” is used in some translations because it really refers to the “jealousy” of the Holy Spirit for our affection. The New Living Translation which you maybe alluding to states James 4:5 as “What do you think the Scriptures mean when they say that the spirit God has placed within us is filled with envy?[b]” . However it is followed with a footnote that further explains the verse as “Or that God longs jealously for the human spirit he has placed within us? or that the Holy Spirit, whom God has placed within us, opposes our envy?”

    Again, as the Scriptures generally use “envy” as sin, I would personally avoid using it to say something good. As to James 4:5, I prefer to use another version like NKJ which states, “Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?

    Note, I respect everyone’s posts – I am just pointing out what the Scriptures say in the various references I mentioned, (NKJ, NLT, etc.) about the words “jealousy” and “envy” and how they are used.

  49. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 29, 2011 at 12:48 am

    Yes, Long weekend here to, late spring bank holiday, though I still have to work, but I am not Jealous of those who get the day off but envy them abit!

    Bob

  50. nezzar says:
    May 29, 2011 at 2:27 am

    I wonder what a word study in the Greek would show. Since that is the original. If we really want to get to know the meanings of specific words maybe that is where we should go. We seem to have a lot of idea’s about the words jealousy and envy perhaps an original language study would be warranted. When I have more time I’ll look into it. Perhaps some of you could help me out.

  51. xrgarza says:
    May 29, 2011 at 6:08 am

    nezzar, you are correct in that the Greek was the original language that was used in the New testament, but in the old testament it was Hebrew.

    They are both very precise languages, but since Numbers is in the Old Testament, and Corinthians is in the New Testament, it would be nice to see how they would actually translate verbatim.

    Rocky

  52. oneg2dblu says:
    May 29, 2011 at 7:07 am

    This word study, or confusion we are all engaged in, is nothing short of man’s attempt at discerning the Word of God. There are many uses of the language that change it accordingly, and this is beginning to border on our own practice of legalism, as each of us finds or defines, his own version, to support and follow to the letter! What amazes me is all these interpretations, are written by biblical scholars using common worldly vernacular, to decribe God’s intentioned position when He uses, His word. So, in that light we are completely safe to use either word justifiably, even as the most learned amoung us have for generations. We can relax, its all good, its all God, if it is given and recieived in His Love, either word will surfice. Praise God that He finds us caring “so intently” about which word, has the greater context, when either can, as has been used to define His Intentions! If those words alone, defined our salvation, we would have much to carry on about,
    but they do not change God’s Plan for us! Praise God,
    He has used “other” words to define His Salvation, Jesus Christ! You can quote this… verbatim, or to extreme exhaustion if you prefere, but nothing changes, unless something changes it, and God will never change His Words, to suit our worldly intelligence. Gary

  53. poohpity says:
    May 29, 2011 at 9:18 am

    “Can you think of ways in which envy could be expressed in love?” Just goes to show ya how one simple question can be taken to a point where love seems to fade when we get in the way.

  54. poohpity says:
    May 29, 2011 at 9:38 am

    I envy Jesus’s relationship of total dependence on the Father. Hopefully that envy expressed in love will cause me to draw closer to God and not look at any knowledge, self sufficiency, strength, words, that I may possess.

  55. dust says:
    May 29, 2011 at 10:46 am

    Off subject.

    I wll try to desribe Spiritual formation in Jesus with a tech manual approch..

    1. Lay an 8 1/2 by 11 page using 8 1/2 for hight.

    2. Starting at lower left hand corner, draw a line rising at 45 degrees up to middle of page.

    3. extend line horezontally for 1 1/2 inches.

    4. draw line down at 45 degrees until close to bottom of sheet.

    5. draw line horezontally to right hand edge.

    6. extend step 2 line using dots 2 inches.

    7. extend step 3 line using dots 2 inches.

    8. identify step 2 line as “heroic journey”

    9. identify step 3 line as “crisis of limitation”

    10. identify step 4 line as “wisdom journey”

    11, identify step 5 line as “gratefull fool”

    12. identify step 6 dotted line as “old fool”

    13. identify step 7 dotted line as “embittered fool”

    14. top left of page wright “STAGE OF ASCENT”

    15. under step 14 wright “needs to make and keep promises to grow”

    16. top right of page wright “STAGE OF DESCENT”

    17. under step 16 wright “needs to rest in God’s promises to grow”

    old fool = “doesn’t get it; tries to keep ascending despite the evidence and the invitation”

    embittered fool = “confrontation but no enlightenment, Resentment and/or blaming. Wounds do not become sacred wounds.”

    grateful fool = lives freely and lightly because they are resting in God – no need to be in control. secure enough to be insecure.

    page title “SPIRITUAL FORMATION IN JESUS”

    adapted from Wild Man To Wise Man by Richard Rohr.

  56. SFDBWV says:
    May 29, 2011 at 10:46 am

    Today we are moving up into higher temps for us, I would tell you but it would just make pooh and nezzar laugh at what I thought of as hot. I have seen on the weather channel where out in Butte Montana there is snow…..No envy here!

    It is fun if not deeply interesting to be in to the study of scripture and see the various meanings the words originally used and how there can be different meaning by a simple use of one or more of the applications of the word.

    From such study we can learn much and be opened to a richer and fuller relationship with God. It is also where we can ferret out false teaching and false doctrines.

    I do not see the study of the different meanings of words translated from Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic to be a stumbling block at all, but rather a more serious study of the Word.

    The quickest and most simple ways to look at the Greek or Hebrew meanings are through the use of a Concordance. The definitions I used in an earlier post come from that source not an English dictionary.

    If one dose not have a concordance, the internet is awash with the ability to connect to one or translate Greek and Hebrew into English.

    I was taken back many years ago by reading one of the newer translated Bibles change a statement Jesus had made, from “where the eagles gather” to “Where the vultures gather”. For my understanding at the time, the two had very different meanings and completely altered what the statement implied.

    So I am cautious as to the too easily translated new Bibles and the use of the many different possibilities that can occur in translation. Cautious enough to make my own study to see if things line up or agree with long held or accepted understanding.

    Of course it is equally interesting to see how Hebrew and Greek translates into other languages of the world.

    If seeking an answer to scripture word usage, God is faithful to give you the proper understanding and follow it up with conformation via the Holy Spirit.

    Enjoy your study of God’s Word and test every Spirit to make certain it is of God and not ambitious men.

    Steve

  57. oneg2dblu says:
    May 29, 2011 at 11:48 am

    I do beleive all translations aeven after the ever hallowed King James, were done with just a much vigor and godly intention, and with the most intense study of the original languages as well. There is no under-lying intention to didvide the Believers going on here, only the most knowledgable effort to provide a more modern useage for the masses to come to know the Lord as God, in there common tongue.Whether you attack an enemy as a Vulture, which is any of certain large raptorial birds allied to the eagles, hawks, and falcons, as birds of prey, or as an Eagle, you are still ripping them to shreds, and consuming them!
    So, I do not see the crippling difference of intention to descibe that type of bird, but, then again I have been called Legalistic more than once.
    I’m done with the “words can become our enemy” battle! Good day… as in good day! Gary

  58. poohpity says:
    May 29, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    I think David McCasland said it so well today in our daily bread. For “experienced travelers” in the Christian life, there can be great danger in losing the wonder. The Scriptures that once thrilled us may become more familiar and ACADEMIC”. We become consumed with our minds and forget the heart in it all.

  59. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    May 29, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    Not wishing to undermine this discussion,but English is a beautiful language,.
    Full of words and brilliant ways of exspression.
    The King James version celibrates its 400th aniversary this year.
    If God wanted the Bible to be written in Hebrew or Greek in these last days it would be so, He chose English to be the prinary language of these days. So Be It! that is Amen in Hebrew.

    Bob

  60. oneg2dblu says:
    May 29, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    Bob in cornwall… forgive me if I’m wrong, but today the bible is written in more languages than ever before. In fact my church is now in the process of completing it in a language that it has never been written before. Praise God for that! I believe the English language is the hardest to learn, because its many words can be used in so many different contexts, it bewilders a new learner. I spent some time in Greece when I was in the Navy, and was completely dumb-founded because even a common sign would mean absolutely nothing, for I could not recognize any characters of their alphabet. Greek to me, is all Greek. Gary

  61. royalpalm says:
    May 29, 2011 at 5:20 pm

    Hello, everyone,

    First of all, I apologize if I have hurt anyone’s sensibilities about my post. I appreciate and admire everyone’s ideas in this blog and how each explain himself/herself about this topic.

    When we come to a discussion like this, because of my limited knowledge, especially on matters of the Scriptures, my only way of contributing anything is by looking at the Scriptures itself.

    Since there seems to be a lengthy argument about “jealous” and “envy”, I just searched the Scriptures to help me put in my thoughts to this blog. This is how I help others who have questions in life…I am not a graduate of any theology school but a homemaker who loves the Lord and His word, so I search and read what the Bible says about it, some related books and commentaries, and share the answers. Better still, I give them a Bible to keep and let them read for themselves. What they do with the knowledge is up to them.
    For my post in May 28, this was exactly what I did. Thankfully RBC through its Daily Bread and its link with BibleGateway.com provides “keyword search” and “passage lookup” and these are very helpful.( I recommend this to everyone who is serious about looking at words like “jealous” and “envy” and how these words are used – as well as other words in the Bible. There are various Bible translations available also.)

    As Paul said in I Cor. 13, 12,3, “For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

    Again, my apologies. May God’s love transcend over all our frailties and individual differences, and unite us towards a common goal of bringing glory to His Name!

  62. Mart De Haan says:
    May 29, 2011 at 7:40 pm

    Thanks for all of the good discussion. Am guessing we’d all agree that in 1Cor 13 Paul used envy in its negative sense: love does not envy (resent) others for having something that we lack. This can be true of us to the extent that we find our security and satisfaction in God.

    Re:the question, “Can love envy?” if so– then it would not be the kind of envy Paul is talking about. It would be more like the loving Jealousy that the Bible attributes to God.

    Don’t we sometimes speak of envying another person in the sense of admiring them (i.e. wanting to be like the person who responds in grace to matters that we find irritating.

  63. bratimus says:
    May 29, 2011 at 9:51 pm

    I envy for peace and rest

  64. Regina says:
    May 29, 2011 at 11:28 pm

    Good Evening All

    Hope all is well in your lives. Had an awesome time at church today! :) Truly, I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.

    Was thinking about Mart’s question…”Can you think of ways in which envy could be expressed in love?”

    Sometimes, people say they have a “healthy envy” of someone, meaning that the person they’re envying has character traits, wealth, wisdom, peace, material possessions, etc., which causes them to aspire to do better and/or be a better person in their own lives.

    Would write more but falling asleep while typing now…

    Sunny and warm in Texas today (beautiful).

    Love to all,
    Regina

  65. Regina says:
    May 29, 2011 at 11:38 pm

    ps. HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY, BTA family! Want to express my sincere gratitude to all who served in any branch of military service on behalf of our beautiful and beloved country.

    “America the Beautiful” (Katharine Lee Bates)

    O beautiful for spacious skies,
    For amber waves of grain,
    For purple mountain majesties
    Above the fruited plain!

    America! America!
    God shed His grace on thee,
    And crown thy good with brotherhood
    From sea to shining sea!

  66. foreverblessed says:
    May 30, 2011 at 4:14 am

    THe topic is still going on! This weekend I have been thinking, can I express envy in love? Saying: only when done in the Holy Spirit in me, Jesus in me, but what example would I have?
    God envies with great vigour the spirit that is within us. Maybe I have to think in that line. Christ in me, is longing for the spirit of the people He brings me in contact with to come to God through Jesus.
    A godly envy that is, which is so great, this thought impressed my mind deeply since this been thinking topic.
    The envy God has for us is Holy, and good, and so great!
    You can see how great our fall has been since Adam, how everything is spoiled to bits. But God didn’t leave us in there, He gave a way out, Jesus. God shed His grace on us.

  67. foreverblessed says:
    May 30, 2011 at 4:22 am

    Weather overhere is sunny and dry, for more then 2 monsths now. Very dry to our standards. Many of the smaller dikes are made of peat, and when peat dries out, the dikes crack.
    Everything is still green, so what is dry…
    The sun shines, birds sing, the soft green of the new leaves on the trees. Flowers bloom, new life all around! Normally we would have rain often, now for week I can enjou this lovely weather, and go outside sit in the garden, be impressed by how beautiful God made everything. And that He creates new life in us (dust state of ascent is resting in God, if He made nature beautiful, so van He make me beautifull, so you write by resting in God)

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