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Logical Conclusions

Photo by: Jason

Could it be possible that the God of the Bible demands of us what we cannot do, intervenes to rescue some of us, and then condemns the rest to suffer forever for not doing what they never had the ability to do?

More specifically, when the Bible tells us that we are born “dead in sin” (i.e. Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1), does that mean that we cannot respond to God any more than a dead corpse can ask for help, and that our only hope to avoid eternal conscious torment is for God to take the initiative to regenerate us, causing us to believe?

I don’t doubt that this is a logical conclusion, if we have the right assumptions. But there are different points of view that reach different logical conclusions– by embracing different assumptions about what the Bible means.

What I’m really wondering is whether these are the kind of  logical conclusions that the Apostle Paul had in mind when he wrote to a young Timothy saying, “You have heard me teach many things that have been confirmed by many reliable witnesses. Teach these great truths to trustworthy people who are able to pass them on to others” (2Tim 2:2 NLT).

Is it the debatable and divisive logic of alternative theological/philosophical systems that we need to entrust to the next generation? Is our calling to come up with logical conclusions that clear up the mysteries of the Bible, creation, salvation, personal suffering, and eternal judgment?

Or are we called upon to be witnesses of a God who has loved us enough to sacrifice his Son to die “for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1John 2:2)?

As time has gone on, I find that my confidence in the Bible as the God-breathed revelation of God, and of my own heart, has only grown. Never before have I been so convinced that Jesus is who he claimed to be– God among us, and that he has come to reveal the heart of his Father, and to rescue us from our fallen condition.

Yet, never before have I also wanted so much to back away from those logical conclusions that might bear the baggage of what I have taken for granted– without knowing. Never before have I wanted so much to see– and to loosen my grip on– those assumptions that say more about what I don’t know… than about those matters that most of us would agree God has clearly revealed.

The Way Dominoes Fall

P.S. Now that this post has been up for a few hours, and no one has commented about the picture of the dominoes, take another look.

I’ll admit that I didn’t see my own wrong assumptions about it– and therefore the logical problem it pictures… when I chose it earlier this morning.

Once you see the wrong assumption, see if you can then add another assumption that would make the first (Philadelphia) picture “logical”.


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79 Responses to “Logical Conclusions”

  1. tha.khoza says:

    God’s love (and Word) is not only pure and just but true as well. no amount of “logical conclusions based on assumptions” can ever change that. i don’t think logical conclusions are the route we are supposed to take when we encounter “mysteries” in the Bible anyway. There are areas that seem vague in the Bible but thats why we have the Holy Spirit who reveals God’s truth to us and gives us grace to understand stuff. But even when the complete picture has not been revealed to us there will be day when the partial will be complete and we will see everything clearly. For now we must rest in the firm truth that God loves us all dearly and he is all knowing – and thats what we should pass on to the next generation.

    A bit sunny here in Southern Africa, winter is almost upon us. Thank God for the different seasons!

  2. alegria says:

    I’m with you Mart and tha.khoza. As a teen and twenty-year old, I wanted to know all the logical reasons to believe. Now, having walked a few decades with Him, I just want to keep walking with Him daily, keep digging for precious nuggets in the Word, and keep growing. The “logic” doesn’t matter much to me any more – only when I’m trying to help my teens or unbelieving friends work through their doubts. But ultimately it comes down to a choice to believe.

  3. florida7sun says:

    Grace and peace to you, Paul begins his letters.

    Jesus spoke in Aramaic. Paul wrote in Greek. The bridge between them in sharing the Good News is the Lord’s grace and peace. Those who surrender their will and embrace His love have tenderness of soul and a heart of compassion.

    “For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross…” – Ephesians 2:14-16

    As the Word incarnate, Jesus shows us how to live: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” – Matthew 22:37-40

    Grace and peace is ever flowing through the indwelling of His Spirit. We have none in our own self worth. We only receive grace and peace through the shed Blood of our Savior.

    Our righteousness is abhorrent to Our Father in Heaven. No one is good, but God.

    Jesus is God.

    Grace and peace to all from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Ray

  4. Mart De Haan says:

    Good responses. Thanks for the early comments. I want to add that I don’t mean to imply through this post that we need to become simplistic and only talk about a few things.

    Rather it seems to me that the Scriptures are written in such a way as to lead us to both knowledge and humility, truth and grace, discovery and mystery.

    I think we’ve all seen how friends can talk and disagree about all kinds of things, without hurting one another– risky, at times, as that may be :-)…

  5. Regina says:

    Good Morning All

    Hope all is well in your lives. Interesting blog topic, Mart, and I really like the picture you posted in this blog. I *totally agree* with your comment,

    “As time has gone on, I find that my confidence in the Bible as the God-breathed revelation of God, and of my own heart, has only grown. *Never before have I been so convinced that Jesus is who he claimed to be– God among us, and that he has come to reveal the heart of his Father, and to rescue us from our fallen condition.”*

    May all of our spirits, hearts and minds be enlightened to receive this simple, yet profound truth, and may we never lose sight of it.

    Jesus said,“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).

    “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
    In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am” (John 14:1-3, NIV)

    Think the 14th chapter of John fully supports the two sentences that I shared from your intro comment, Mart.

    Sunny and warm in Texas today (81 degrees right now).

    Love to all,
    Regina

  6. florida7sun says:

    God bless you Mart and “Our Daily Bread.” We all have been blessed in so many ways!

    Yes, “the Scriptures are written in such a way as to lead us to both knowledge and humility, truth and grace, discovery and mystery.”

    The Scriptures are written to lead us to our Father in Heaven: the embodiment of all wisdom.

    Knowledge of His Son through His Word, and understanding poured out by His Spirit, take us to the Cross. The culmination of all we can ever know and all we can ever be hangs there. Through His stripes we are healed. Our eyes are opened. Our ears hear. Our heart rejoices. Life itself is imparted to us.

    The Reader’s Digest is known for simplifying stories into worthy fragments that impart the author’s text. Simplification, with each, revised version can ultimately lead to a single word. The same is true with Scripture.

    All of Scripture shouts Jesus. He is I AM.

    Approaching 100 degrees, summer is coming.

    Love to all, Ray

  7. poohpity says:

    I do not believe it is our calling to come up with logical conclusions that clear up the mysteries of the Bible, creation, salvation, personal suffering, and eternal judgment. Our logic and God’s are no where near the same and we just fool ourselves if we think we know. Actually our logic about those things is usually quiet the opposite most of the time. I do not have to know all those mysteries I trust in God and depend that they are all in His hands.

    The only thing I can witness on because I believe with all my heart for sure is that I am a sinner doomed to die because I will always sin BUT God in His infinite wisdom and love decided to come in the form of man and took the punishment, not just for me but for every human being alive on the face of the earth, for our sins. Jesus paid my sin debt which is just another mystery of unexplainable reasons knowing that I will sin again. I will never be able to figure that one out but He did and although I do not understand I trust and believe and am so very, very grateful and thankful for the forgiveness, mercy and grace we all have been shown whether we believe in Him or not.

  8. alegria says:

    I think when the Scripture speaks of being ready to give a reason for your faith, it is encouraging us to be willing to debate the issues of faith. My husband is a mechanical engineer, surrounded at work by a bunch of “engineering geeks”. :) I’ve been blessed to teach college-level Spanish from time to time. When you’re around folk in academia or geekdom, you have to know the apologetics behind your faith.

    Since hubby also went to Bible school, we have some cool debates around the supper table about biblical topics…..little less intense than the ones on this blog, but fun.

    Still, like most of y’all, when it comes down to daily faith-living, it’s God’s incredible grace towards a sinful me, His comfort in the challenges of life, and his spirit speaking to me through his word and prayer, that keep me going. All the fine arguments in the world will never measure up to the blessings of walking through life with the God of the Bible as your friend.

    A lovely 76 degrees here in Indy today. We’re enjoying it! Love to all, Pam

  9. bratimus says:

    We can draw a logical conclusion from the Bible, there is a catch. We have to wait for the return of Christ, and we have to let are faith carry us to then. The logical conclusion is the return of Christ this is a promise from God.

  10. poohpity says:

    My logical conclusion for the dominoes is that it seems that the one is fallen without the logical assistance of the others which would be the normal reaction to the ones before it. So it does not seem logical at all. Normally the dominoes would start out standing then tips the others down but in this picture it is starting with a fallen one and the other seem to be following with no help. Logically it should be tilted the other way. So would that suggest that when we start with an illogical assumption we cause others to fall into a trap. I have always learned that assuming makes an ass-u-me. LOL!!

  11. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    There are three assumptions to your picture Mart,

    1: It is a snapshot and the middle dominow is falling down.

    2: There is someone holding it up or it is fixed to the ground.

    3: Or perhaps it is a painting, where anything is possible.

    The last two are possible with God.

    The first is who we are, falling down!

    Bob

  12. irishdoo says:

    the domino is falling the wrong direction. EZ

  13. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, you may not have wanted to make simplistic in the discussion, but the truth is that the subject of faith is simple not complex at all.

    The matter of reading and ingesting the scriptures is only complex when we choose to make it be so. God said He created all things that exist; I choose to simply believe Him. God says that He made all things that exist in six days; again I choose to believe Him.

    Jesus says that He is the only way to be returned to the Father; I choose to believe Him. Jesus said that His cross was His to bear, but we all have our own crosses to bear, I choose to believe Him and so take up my cross and follow Him.

    Faith as we are given from God is illogical; faith in an unseen God, faith in an eternal future, trust and belief in words written thousands of years ago is very illogical.

    Standing or kneeling speaking aloud or under my breath words to an unseen God, as I lay my soul bare and plead for others or myself is illogical and could be seen as insane by the logical practical thinkers of any society.

    So I take great pride in knowing that this faith I possess flaunts itself in the face of logic.

    What was it I wonder did Pharaoh’s army think as pillars of fire held them at bay? Or when they saw the Hebrew slaves walk across a divided sea on dry ground?

    What logic played out in the minds of men as they seen Lazarus walk out of a tomb four days dead? What kind of logic can accept that an axe head floated or that the sun stood still?

    What kind of logic in me makes it easy for me to readily accept all these examples I have given as fact?

    God has said it, I believe it…..that is enough for me.

    A very busy but cooler day in the mountains of West Virginia.

    Steve

  14. florida7sun says:

    I did not focus on the dominoes before. Following the posts of those who preceded me, I saw the number 7: God’s number of perfection.

    We were dead in our sins. Through the transforming power of His Word, we are risen in Christ.

    He is the resurrection and the life! He breathes new life into those dead in their sins. Praise His Name!

    Love to all, Ray

  15. poohpity says:

    I think we would all do good to read the last chapters in Job especially Job 40:1-5 and put our hands over our mouths when we try and talk about things we know nothing about especially the things of God and how he works. To me that would be the logical response rather than any other conclusion.

  16. nezzar says:

    I guess when I saw the picture I just thought it had as much to do with the topic as the Rhino’s did with that topic, so I ignored it.

    I personally like to think of reasons why or how, I’ve looked into the evidence for the new testament being both a reliable source of info and how it hasn’t changed much in 2000 years. This study did nothing but increase my faith. I also think that having facts back up your faith increases your faith. I also know the danger of human logic, as I have used it to justify porno. I thank God that He rescued me from that particular sin. Lean not unto your own understanding, applies there. I don’t know of any guideline for when logic is harmful or beneficial except if it conflicts with scripture throw it out.

  17. poohpity says:

    I thought of another logical thing about the dominoes they could have been caught in a frame from a camera in rewind mode.

  18. bratimus says:

    As for the picture,

    The artist could be trying to tell the audiance that we are living in a backwards world now.

    That is my locical ASSumsion

  19. xrgarza says:

    Mart,

    Thank you for always providing an opportunity to think about things that could easily be taken for granted.

    Out of all the things that I have learned in this life the one thing that I am most certain of is that I don’t have a clue.

    When it comes to sharing logical conclusions about biblical and spiritual principles, I really believe that our approach should not be as if we were dealing with a multi-level marketing business. Often times this appears to be the approach of many denominations. As if the more people we lead to the Lord, the better our standing will be when we get to heaven.

    I’m a very analytical person, I have a formula for virtually everything I want to have a sound understanding of everything that I do, because I believe that having a sound understanding will allow me to do a much better job at whatever I put my efforts to.

    However with my spiritual life, those formulas all go out the door, unless you are talking about trust, faith, love and hope. Even then, every person will experience a different conclusion when encountering these four elements. When speaking of these four elements I am not able to make a logical conclusion, perhaps that’s why we are told not to lean on our own understanding.

    Concerning the dominoes, well they appear to be standing up instead of falling down, also the order that they are in appears to be beginning with the one laying down “blank/blank” “six/one” “five/two” my logical conclusion would assume that the following dominoes, the ones that I can’t see would be “four/three” “three/four” “two/five” “one/six” “blank/blank”

    Rocky

  20. xrgarza says:

    PS: Now that I have enlarged the photo I see that the domino that is lying down is “blank/one” totally blowing my theory out of the water. Reinforcing my logical conclusion that I don’t have a clue. :)

    Rocky

  21. dodi says:

    Jesus promised when the Holy Spirit comes he will “lead us into ALL truths” There is so so so many things my natural mind doesn’t conprehend………..and even the Apostle Paul as brilliant as he was said this……….: “For now we all see through a glass darkly, but one day we shall know as we are known” I do believe there is such a thing as (forbidden knowledge) and for divine reasons alone we aren’t to meddel with it. ……..Proverbs 3:5,6 reads………..”Trust in the Lord with all of your heart and LEAN NOT TO YOUR OWN UNDERTANDING” It is when I begin to lean to my own understanding confusion creeps in and we know God is not the author of confusion. I so believe God’s grace is so great and wonderful, He will never fail those who call upon him, especially in their darkest moments. His Grace is matchless and His mercy endless. __________ God Bless L/dodi

  22. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… its too late for you to cover your mouth, as you’ve already spoken… :)
    Now, that I’ve patiently waited for the rest of you to kick in, I’ll have my moment. So, “Quiet please!” :0
    I too, did not focus on the picture, for the topic seemed more relevant, so I focused on the words instead.
    Mart’s quick explaination of saying that the bible demands of us what we cannot do, rescues some of us,
    and condemns the rest, for not having the ability to do what we cannot do.
    That of course could not be biblical. For the word of God clearly states… He who began a work in you, will bring it to completion! So, we should not lay around claiming our self professed useless state, if God truly lives in us, He will do what He says. Like in Ephesiains 3:20-21 “Now to him who can do immeasurably more than we can ask or imagine… why would we imagine ourselves hopelessly unable to not find help for our sin?
    1 Corinthians 10:13 “No temnptation has siezed you…
    I thought I saw a list of reasons about why the bible was written to lead us, but they are not there now. Must have been an optical illusion, but
    I wanted to add to that list, that the bible gives us much more, it gives us strength for today, and a bright hope for tomorrow. Not to mention the hope of eternity which Steve had mentioned before I could post it, so I’ll let him have that point. HA! Ha!
    Also, Ephesians 2:1-3 has my favorite word in it,
    It says, you (were) dead in the trespasses and sins.
    NIV “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you (used) to live when you followed the ways of the world and the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us (also lived among them at one time.)” Why bask in the thoughts of not having any recourse but to keep on professing you are a sinner, and you will keep on with your ever sinning? Why be a confessing defeatist, when Christ rules your very members?
    I do not get that defensless position of, “nothing will ever change me!” I know we are all sinners, but there is a way out, we need to profess a greater way, “Greater is He who is in me, than he who is in the world!”
    We are to be living as regenerated beings, with renewed
    minds, and with the Helper sent to us, who lives in us,
    leading our thoughts and words. Are we not to totally surrender to that Holy Spirit, instead of claiming our helpless sinning nature, as the rest of the world does?
    Are we just another domino in the long chain of fallen, broken,hopeless, guilty, lonely, sinners? I think not, if we belive with Faith what the bible tells us we are, “His Workmanship!” Gary

  23. florida7sun says:

    Gary, I pray all went well with your tests today. You are a blessing. Ray

  24. davids says:

    Inasmuch as it is comfortable to rely on faith and not think about the logic, sometimes it cannot be avoided. The youth of our church were given the opportunity to write down questions that were given to the congregation.

    These teens see many around them that are not believers; Other teens that have much difficulty, and there have been a couple of suicides.

    They ask the questions that we might prefer to avoid. Why does God put us here, unable to do his will? Why does he give us free will, knowing that so many will use it not to believe and therefore face eternal damnation, perhaps having faced a life of misery and killing themselves at 15?

    Discussion can help prepare us for these questions. Sometimes, it is not enough to say, “The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it!”

  25. oneg2dblu says:

    florida7son… thanks! Everything is on the up and up so far. Diagnosis is prostate infection, and meds will run another ten days. Blood work taken today may not show a huge decline in my PSA numbers, but the whitecell sount will have dropped considerably. My doc knows my history and is not concerned about cancer, unless my numbers are still way out on Aug 2, which is my next blood test. I feel greatly releaved to say the least, and I do give all the healing so far, to the prayers of the Saints, and the work of the Great Phyisician. Thank you all for your helpful words and prayers. Gary

  26. oneg2dblu says:

    Our teens need us greatly to be invovlved in their lives, these are tough times for all that is going on today, spiritually, morallly, and the breakdown of so many other systems we took for granted growing up.
    Safe communities, safe neighbors, safe foods, safe schools and that lot. One of our youth pastors shared some comments given from teens who were asked, “What is your parents first love?” The answers were everything from , “For my Dad it is his football team, it comes first.” Another said, His dad relished his beer above all other things.” Then, “My dad’s truck takes all his time.” It seemed that in many homes today it was the mom’s, who had stepped up, and taken care of the needs of the family. The kids had to find a father’s love outside the home. That is a tragic state of affairs, directly related to the breakdown of the family.
    Don’t get me wrong there were many strong families represented by our churched who answered as well.
    But the answers were very different. “My Dad says, Christ is the Head of our house, then him, then mom
    and then me.” I love my parents devotion to the Lord, I never feel second place with them, their love is overwhelming and never ending!” They are Christ with pants on, TV off, and nothing stops us from our worshiping Our God daily.” If my Dad can find all his strength comes from the Lord, than I can too.”
    We model every day to the children around us, the question is, what do they see in us? Gary

  27. saled says:

    The dominoes make me think of the argument that it is necessary to defend the doctrines of our faith: if we give up our belief in eternal torment in hell, it will soon knock down our belief in sin, and then maybe even lead us to–you fill in the rest.

    I think back to my narrow view of salvation when I was first saved. I remember telling my cousin that our grandmother wasn’t saved because years earlier she had wanted our little church to be called a community church instead of joining one of the Baptist associations. Today, my hopes for the salvation and redemption that Jesus accomplished on the cross rest only in His work, not in doctrine.

  28. Regina says:

    Good Evening All

    Steve, I LOVE your comment, “So I take great pride in knowing that this faith I possess flaunts itself in the face of logic.”

    Your entire comment was well said! :-)

    Sunny and hot today in Texas (100 degrees = high today / 95 degrees right now).

  29. Regina says:

    davids,

    The saying, “The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it!” means (to me) that God’s thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways.

    Isa. 55:8, NLT
    “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord.“And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.”

    That’s why we shouldn’t, as so many of our dear brothers/sisters have already stated, “lean to our own understanding” of situations and circumstances that occur in our lives. God does not want us to worry when life brings adversity and hardship because much of what occurs in our lives is beyond our control. Sometimes, God allows us to go through “valley experiences” in our lives.

    Matt 6:27,NKJV
    Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

    Hope all is well with you and your family.

    Regina

  30. Marjorie says:

    Hi, all. After having surgery a week ago yesterday, I am back home recovering with 17 staples. My daughter took a picture so that I could “see” them. LOL They kept me at the hospital until Friday evening to get my innards going again–sort of.
    As a former Nazarene, Church of Christ, Presbyterian, and now Baptist I understand how differently we can interpret God’s Word and how much dissension it can create. Now, I just want to keep things simple–trusting in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord and sharing His love with those who know and those who don’t know Him. 2 Corinthians 11:3 has become one of my favorite verses. “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” Nothing else really matters

  31. royalpalm says:

    Hello, BTA friends,
    Thanks for your spiritual insight and comments…Great topic Mart. “Could it be possible that the God of the Bible demands of us what we cannot do, intervenes to
    rescue some of us, and then condemns the rest to suffer forever for not doing what they never had the ability to
    do?” Like Gary, I don’t accept your intro as biblical because it portrays God as an unholy God. (I also have
    problems with your second paragraph…)

    Of all His creation God created man unique – with intellect (to know Him), emotions (to love Him) and free will (to choose to honor Him). He did this so He can have a relationship with man whom He also chose to manage the whole earth for Him.(Gen. 1:26).

    God is sovereign and has complete authority over His creation, man included. In the Bible, it is God who speaks – man obeys. It was Adam and Eve’s desire to be wise apart from God’s guidance that brought their downfall.(Gen. 3:6)

    God’s word is perfect and complete. Those who have the audicity to question God’s wisdom will like Job,
    ultimately say, ” Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know….Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:3,6)

    Sin brought spiritual death (separation from God) and instead of worshipping God we worship His creation, including ourselves. Nevertheless God did not take away our intellect, emotions, or free will. Nor did He withdraw His love, mercy, and grace. He continued to reveal His glory in creation where He speaks to each person’s intellect and emotions.(Romans 1:18-21)

    Our free will and how we respond to God determines our destiny – do we glorify and thank Him, or we deny and
    suppress the truth about Him? Paul wrote that our wrong choice will lead to futile thoughts and darkened hearts.
    (Rom 1:21).Faith in God is simply believing Him – no “doing’ required. God will honor faith even if it is as small as a mustard seed…

    Paul assures us that the gospel has the power to save each one who believes in Jesus.(Rom 1:16, 17) The believer is then indwelt with the Holy Spirit who empowers him to do what God wants him to do. As Paul said, it is faith from first to last…

    John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

  32. Mart De Haan says:

    Just added another picture at the end of the post to illustrate the way dominoes fall in the real world.

    Deb (poohpity) caught the “unreal” way the Philadelphia dominoes were portrayed.

    Seems to illustrate how we can be blinded to the truth (the way things really are– in the presence of God) by wrong assumptions.

    In this case trying to see patterns in numbers of the dominoes, i.e. relating 7 to the perfect # etc. could be true while missing the obvious.

    As I admitted in my end-of-post p.s., even in the process of picking the dominoes picture to illustrate logical conclusions, I missed the irony of the dominoes sculpture.

    Yet, if we add the assumption that there must be an unseen wire connecting the 3 dominoes, or that i.e. the sculpture is created to illustrate non-reality, we can create our own logical conclusions– regardless of whether they are true.

    I’m saying all of this not to minimize the importance of logic, even in interpreting Scripture. It is absolutely necessary, for instance, to adopt the logic of the Bible’s own context (immediate and wider) if we are going to avoid using the Bible as packaging for our own thoughts.

    The danger is in not seeing the possibility that we are trying to think with assumptions that are merely our own, rather than supplied by the God of inspiration.

  33. florida7sun says:

    royalpalm, what a great post to wake up to. Thank you for sharing.

    As I read all the contributions posted by BTA friends, His light shines brighter in my heart. I come alive, and it’s not my morning coffee.

    Like the domino standing, “I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. My help comes from the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth.” – Psalm 121:1-2

    Blessings to all for a glorious day, Ray

  34. SFDBWV says:

    All of the “Trekies” out here will understand that the character Spock in the “Star Trek” series came from a race of people who worshiped and followed logic as supreme. In their story logic came into direct opposition with *emotion*.

    Anyone who has ever done an irrational thing because of emotion can relate to the fact that emotion can change the dynamics of rational logical thinking.

    Make no mistake about it; we human beings are made in the image of God, a shadowy likeness, but still we are made like Him.

    God is emotional; He says so in word and action.

    If I were to follow only logic in my interpretation of scripture, then the “logical conclusion” is that if I do not obey God I am doomed; if I do not accept Christ I am damned.

    Is there more to the story? Does God answer the questions we ask today by something said or done thousands of years ago? What is it we *need* to know above believing God? What *logical proofs* do we seek in order to make what God has said acceptable to us? Why does God have to prove anything or answer our questions? Who are we to question God?

    If I die penniless and abandoned alone in the world, still I will not blame God, but only trust my eternity to His care.This is the conclusion I have learned by living!

    As far as the domino picture is concerned, one need only look to art and the interpretation of it, to see that like ink blots we all see in art something inside of ourselves.

    45 degrees this morning, wish I could share it with some of you folks out in Texas, Arizona, and even Iraq.

    Steve

  35. tha.khoza says:

    its great to see how the saints are totally convinced of God’s love for us and how logic is not the way to go. i wish the world would see the simplicity of it all, instead of looking for answers everywhere else except God’s love.

  36. foreverblessed says:

    About logic, the way we think everything will go to the last day, might be the same as 2000 years people expected the Christ, but the way in which everything happened was unknown to them, while all the time it was described in the Old Testament, it was there all along, but hidden. After it happened the disciples could say: Oh yes, that is how it was written about the Christ.
    But they could not see it beforehand.
    I think this is the same with how everything will evolve in the end, it will be different then what we thought it would be, and still it was alway in the bible, but we interpreted it in our own logical way.
    While God\s way of thinking is higher then ours.

    Mart’s question:
    “More specifically, when the Bible tells us that we are born “dead in sin” (i.e. Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1), does that mean that we cannot respond to God any more than a dead corpse can ask for help, and that our only hope to avoid eternal conscious torment is for God to take the initiative to regenerate us, causing us to believe?”
    This brings one of the best jewels we can find in the Kingdom of God: we were helpless, and only to the grace of God can we say we were saved, if we think we are saved because we answered the call, then we have something to boast about. Ephesians 2:4-10. How could we not respond to His call, which was so powerful that we could not resist it?
    But if we think logically what does that mean for all the others who do not yet believe?
    Did they not answer because they have free will? Or is their mind still bound?
    These questions are real, especially for younger people, as others have written here. We should be in able to talk about it, and I do have objections that christians say: forever torment in hell, which is not very sure in the bible.
    (only in Revelation 20:10 talks about it, but this is not about man, but about the devil. And about the beast and the false prophet which were thrown there, but the verse could say: where they were thrown (past tense), which could mean they were there but are now gone Revelation 19:20. And when the bible talks about an everlasting fire, it does only say that the fire is everlasting, except then for the devil being tormented in it forever. We often have assumptions about heaven and hell, we read things into the bible verses which really are not there).
    God knows, He is in charge, I do not like it when we have a doctrine about all living, and all the dead. Maybe we missed some things God told us all along, we will see it with our eyes when it happens, and then we will say: Oh it was there all along, but we did not see it.

  37. bubbles says:

    This is similar to metacognition: thinking about our thinking. It is so easy to think what we have always thought or parroting back what we have been taught without really thinking about it. It is so easy to proofread what has been typed and not see errors because we read what we think we are “seeing” when it is really not there.

  38. oneg2dblu says:

    It is a glorious day today, as I returned to work and found all my students going to school, and doing well. God has given me a heeart for them, and I’m blessed to be even a, mustrad seed like, very small part of their day. :)
    We share some very simple things as we travel along, maybe a gathering of birds, or some other event we don’t see every day, someone comments and we all benefit. Just like a rolling blog, except its yellow with black stripes…where the blog seems to be black with white dots today.
    Marjorie… Welcome home! Thank you for sharing that verse, 2 Corinthians 11:3 Simlpicity that is Christ.
    I really treasure that simlpicity, where logic and man’s ever artful mind that has to expand or exaggerate and over think everything today. When such simplicity needs nothing but to stand on its own, simple truth.
    God’s Word is Truth! That is as simple as it gets.
    Royalpalm… I am in accord with everything you have shared. But,, even faith as small as a mustard seed is required! But, that seed alone, has no power in itself, it must do something, or the cycle of life becomes, haulted, void, extict, dead. It must bear something, it must sprout, grow and be watered by the Holy Spirit lest it die guilty of doing nothing, remaining alone, and useless for the fruitful existance it was created for. For if it “does nothing,” then nothing changes within it, and it exists for itself only. Doing nothing is not an option, when we are directed by the Word of God and by the Holy Spirit that commands us to be fruitful, and multiply. Just a thought… Gary

  39. poohpity says:

    I respectfully disagree with those who think that what Mart said as being not biblical. The bible from the beginning to the end is filled with things that we can not do but God can. God demanded we follow the law but we could not but Jesus did. We could not earn our salvation but Jesus made it so if we just believe in Him we could be saved and those who do not believe will not be saved. God has repeatedly demanded things we could not do for ourselves because he said we must be Holy as God is Holy. The Holy is only seen in the blood of the Lamb which God looks at us through. So if any person thinks that what God demanded we have the ability to do they are only fooling themselves and the truth is not in them. That’s biblical.

  40. poohpity says:

    As Steve brought up which one of you could have parted the red sea or made an axe head float or calmed the storms of the sea? Which one of you could have followed the letter of the law? Which one of you could have defeated an army of tens of thousands with just 300? The logical conclusion is none of us could live the life the Lord demands of us but it does not stop there God never intended us to with out God and God alone will do for us what we can not do for ourselves.

  41. florida7sun says:

    Maybe I did not focus on the dominoes at first because my desire is to be focused on Him.

    I threw logic out the window a long time ago. Logic does not exist in a heart that is crushed and made anew. I will never be able to comprehend His love and assurance beyond the light He gives me on a daily basis.

    I can also relate to the Apostle Paul; educated and proud in so many ways. Yet, logic did not meet him on the road to Damascus.

    As with Paul, I desire to know nothing but Christ crucified, for wisdom, knowledge and understanding is a gift from God, as is faith itself.

    He imparts every good gift through His grace and mercy.

    “May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.” – Galatians 6:14

  42. oneg2dblu says:

    marjorie… I’m not nailing you for your words, about doing nothing, as much as I’m preaching to the entire choir. We must separate out, the two distinctly different events. One is Salvation, which we can do nothing to acquire, because of the gift of faith, but we must believe in earnest, about this Jesus, and we must call upon His Name to recieve our Salvation. At that point, We are Saved. I bleieve there is also an Act of Repentance going on there as well. As in,Repent and Believe and you will be Saved. That’s biblical.
    That’s simple Salvation. More words could be used about the blood, and cross, and all but I’m trying for simplicity here.
    Point two… the Command, Go and make disciples of all nations… the problem is just being saved does not qualify us to Go and make Disciples. We must frist be undued with , or empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so. That is the second step, where we cannot go by ourselves, our own effort, but by the Power of the Holy Spirit’s direction do we move into an effective ministry of making Disciples. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is essential to any friutful witness.
    So, Salvation alone, is not the ticket to the fullness of Christainity, as many have been deceived into thinking. You must be poured into by the Spirit, to have this life of a Fruitful for Christ Evangelist.
    It does not come through biblical studies alone, it comes through the impartation of the Holy Spirit upon you. I know who I’m preaching to, but I wanted to make myself very clear here. Sorry for using too many words
    but, that is as simple as it gets. Even Jesus could not start His Ministry, until He was empowered by the Holy Spirit decending upon him like a dove. Alone we are but flithy rags! Gary

  43. poohpity says:

    Logically why would a God who knows us better than anything demand us to do things we are unable to do in and of ourselves? Isaiah puts it so well 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.” I believe because God wants our total dependence to be IN God and God alone and to realize we were never meant to do this without Him.

  44. foreverblessed says:

    God requires things from us which we are unable to do by ourselves, He did not want us to do it by ourselves, but in Jesus.
    The way of thinking, the logic Mart’s intro looks like the servant who digged his talent in the ground, because he was afraid. God answered the man in his own logic: Matthew 25:24
    Is that what you mean, oneg2..

    I would like to thank Regina, on giving John 14:1-3, it greatly uplifted my spirits yesterday: be no afraid, let not your hearts be troubled,
    as my heart was troubled when the migraine hits again, I do not want to worry, I fight it, till I pray: Help me Jesus!
    It takes a night till the calming comes..
    Jesus said these calming words, but to those who put their trust in Him, in willing and working.

  45. poohpity says:

    foreverblessed, we have been praying for a couple of years for your migraines to go away. If we were to go to the scripture that says, “whatever you ask in my name I will do for you” if we were to package that as Mart referred to as our own thoughts would that hinder your faith. If we were to take it out of context we may be upset but if it remains in the context regarding telling people about Jesus and His relationship to the Father then it gives us hope. God will give us the ability to witness for Him if we ask for the power to do it. John 14:1-14 explains that Jesus is the way to the Father. I have been also praying for a healing for a long time so if it does not manifest itself like I think it should at times my faith has been tested. I agree so much that it all comes down to “Help me Jesus” to get through this and trusting Him in it. So sad to hear you are still bearing with those migraines. :-(

  46. SFDBWV says:

    “Could it be possible that the God of the Bible demands of us what we cannot do, intervenes to rescue some of us, and then condemns the rest to suffer forever for not doing what they never had the ability to do?”

    If possible I would like to speak on this matter that Mart posted.

    First of all since it was a question that Mart put forth, I would like to answer that no, it is not possible. God has not requested from any of us anything we are not capable of doing. Any task God requires of us, He will provide the ability to accomplish His goal through us.

    However if we set goals that are not God sent then we will have plenty of problems and suffer defeat after defeat in trying to accomplish them, they are our failures not His lack of intervention.

    We need to let God be God and be happy that we are not.

    Steve

  47. poohpity says:

    Steve you said no but then you said God will provide the ability to accomplish His goal. So in, of and by our self are we able to accomplish it?

  48. alegria says:

    I completely ignored the first domino picture as well. Now, having looked more closely, it really makes me smile. To me the picture comes across almost as an allegory to life – the unexpected happens. That’s probably because I’m coming at it from my lit background. No doubt my husband would see it as completely illogical. We lovingly call him “Spock” around here.

    Thanks One2dblu and forever blessed for your concerns about the teens/young people. Most of us on this blog have been believers for awhile. We’ve seen God in our lives, watched Him work as his Word promises, and don’t sense a huge need to try to explain our faith.

    Teens/young folk just aren’t there. I’ve got two daughters(Claudia 16, and Caroline 13, plus son Ben 22) who are still walking the line between salvation and total commitment. They’re in public schools, hearing all the arguments against the faith, and they need some good “logical reasons” to believe at a time in life when peer pressure is huge.

    I believe they’re saved ………see evidence but lack of commitment. Only God really knows that. The thing is, I’m resting in my faith – but I have to listen carefully to my kids, pray daily that I’m behaving like Jesus. It is HARD! Many days I fail miserably an we have mega meltdowns with hormones and emotions flying through the air.

    Thanks to all of you who reach out to our next generation. We have to meet them where they are at. When the “Dead Sea Scrolls” exhibit came through our town, my son ate that up.

    Logic? Faith? Maybe we need some of both. Pam

  49. foreverblessed says:

    Yes Pam, we need some logic for our children, so we can debate things from many sides, without losing faith in Jesus.
    Thanks Pooh, for your concern, it brought tears to my eyes.
    Years ago you already prayed, sometimes I do not want to tell anymore, shame, that it takes so long. But do we give up praying? What about Steve’s Matthew?
    I think this is also called: perseverance, hold on to the end, overcome…
    But I also think in these hard times; do I not have enough faith? The next reaction I have these days is to immediately pray for more faith. In Jesus we have everything 2 Peter 1:3, so I can ask more from Him.
    Without God we are nothing, we would be swallowed up into darkness. We are helpless without Him,I realise that more and more in these trial times.
    Today I was at my church house group, lovely ladies who pray for many, and encourage one another. I asked for prayer, nothing particularly happened, after that we sang a song: Refiners fire, by Brian Doerksen.
    While we sang it, I heard no voice, but it was as if God was saying; Don’t you see, I am refining you, trust Me to do My job with you.
    And it brought peace within.

  50. poohpity says:

    I know!! Will we still trust even when we can not see the answers to our prayers? Of course we will. That is what faith is all about. Abraham trusted God even though he was never able to witness the land of Israel being given to his descendants but God said it would happen and it did. I also think about the struggles that Joni Erickson Tada goes through yet she knows that one day she will dance for Jesus even though she is paralyzed from the neck down but in the strength of Jesus she is still used for the kingdom. She paints, sings, has a husband and ministers to those who have disabilities and to those who don’t. The logical thing would be what the world says she is of no use but to God He uses the illogical things of this world to work for Our His Glory.

  51. poohpity says:

    Ooops, I meant our struggles for His Glory.

  52. SFDBWV says:

    My apologies Pooh, I tried to be clear in my comment and not confuse anyone.

    Mart ask if it were possible that God demands things of us we can not do and then condemns some for not being able to do what they could not do any way…My answer is NO.

    He also ask if God demands some of us to do what we can not do and helps some but not others, again my answer is NO.

    My reasoning is that if God demands something of us He will provide the ability to accomplish that which He has demanded of us…..all of us.

    However if we refuse to obey and choose to rebel against Him, the failure is ours not His.

    Steve

  53. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… Joni’s sweet loving and compassionate voice and message, captured me years ago. I support her wheels for the world mission. God used her accident, and her resulting handicap for His Kingdom hugely, and she has blessed many others because of her love and depedence daily on the Lord. Many of her mouth paintings are in my house and I cherish them both as an artist and as a Follower of Jesus Christ, for she is a blessed Christiain Sister who is worthy, gifted, and always Praising God as she gives His Love to others. Her witness puts many fully functional Christians to shame, as she gets her hands dirty for Christ daily. She wrote me several times asking if I was also handicapped because of the passion I have for the work she does through Christ.
    My only handicap is that I do not give of myself as much as she does, to the mission set before her.

  54. Regina says:

    Good Evening All
    Hope you’re all having a great day today.

    Well said, florida7sun (June 15, 2011 at 10:07 am)!

    Sunny and hot in Texas today (99 degrees right now). Not sure if I want that 45 degree temp, Steve. May change my mind when I head out for Bible study in a few minutes! lol!

  55. Regina says:

    You’re welcome, foreverblessed (June 15, 2011 at 12:39 pm)! :-)

  56. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… we can all reject the call upon our lives and become useless, or we can accept the calling given, and through His Holy Spirit, accomplish what He asks. I notice that he never asks of us sometihng we have not already been perpared to do, through the testing we have already encountered, and the resultant overcoming that proves our faith, when we rely on Him, and his provision, which is always adequate for the task He wants to do through us. Its not logical even to us, at the calling, and sometimes why we are called to a certain task that is vague until we accept the calling, then the logic is revealed. We have an, “I’ve been here before moment, knowing that we are being tested again, and also knowing how to get through it.” It is a mystery to me how He knows more about what we are capabale of doing, then we know ourselves. It takes that step of faith to make it all come forth. He lights just enough of our path for us to make that first step. What an Amazing God we Serve! Gary

  57. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… I hope that last entry answers your question. We are never to step out alone, if we are called, we must wait upon the Lord for His timing, and not run off in our own way. Been there, done that!
    The best way to spell disater, is, “I’ll take it from here Lord.” In our own strength, we bend, we break, we bleed. In His Power, we stand against all opposition, we are protected in our weaknesses, and we pour forth, rivers of flowing water, which can only come from within those who are Empowered by His Spirit! Gary

  58. Regina says:

    foreverblessed, I didn’t know you’ve been dealing with migranes for a couple of years? Did you consider changing your diet, adding a multivitamin and drinking more water? I was thinking, a year or two ago, about the diet that Daniel ate. Remember when King ?? (could look up the kings name in the Bible, but in a hurry right now) offered him the finest cuisine (meat, carbs, dessert, etc.), and he chose a diet of mostly, if not all, vegetables and water? I think our diet has a lot to do with our energy level and the way we feel in general throughout the day. Not to mention the fact that we have a lot more pollution in our world today, which means to me that we need to definitely consider some type of vitamin. I started taking vitamins about three months ago because I was feeling run down, and I’m happy to report that the vitamins helped me feel a lot better, and I have a lot more energy. I also started making it a point to get more fresh air (sitting on my porch, etc.). I hope this information helps you in some way.

    Love to all,
    Regina

  59. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… to me, those dominos in that first picture, could well represent our state of being in our Christian Walk. At any moment in our lives, we are either Standing tall in Him,, Falling to the wiles of the world or the flesh, or flat on our backs helpless after the fall, and looking straight up for Him to make us right again.
    We are always in one of those positions. Today, I’m blessed to be standing tall in Him, but a couple of days ago… I was flat on my back, suffering, and calling out, He has made me right again. His answer is always, I am willing! Praise God!

  60. oneg2dblu says:

    The second picture says to me, If you lean on the crowd for your support, they being just like you, can’t stop your fall either.
    Then, we have this phyical property of momentum, for a body set in motion may carry you a ways, but how far, and what direction are you going? If you are going under your own power, then, probably not very far, and certainly nowhere fast, accept down!

  61. alegria says:

    One2dblu – like that christian life analogy for the dominos.

    Forever – I’ll be praying for the migraines. I’ve had them at certain times in my life. Right now I’m doing really well – and have been since I went through several years of allergy shots. Don’t know if that was part of the cure or just a coincidence. Anyway, I understand the pain and will be praying for healing.

  62. royalpalm says:

    “Could it be possible that the God of the Bible demands of us what we cannot do, intervenes to rescue some of us, and then condemns the rest to suffer forever for not doing what they never had the ability to do?”

    Steve, I agree with your previous points and my reply to the above is also NO. As already mentioned,our Salvation
    is based on faith alone, not by works. After we are saved, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who works in and through us to accomplish God’s plan and purpose. However, there are facts about God and doing something for Him that we need to know…

    1)First,God does not need anything, or any man to accomplish His work – He is the all sufficient, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God, who existed before anything was created, and who will exist from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 90). His angels are created to do His bidding.(Psalm 103:20, Rev. 5:11)

    Isaiah 40 reminds us of the majesty of an Almighty God and the insignificance of man. A few excerpts:
    v. 15 Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket, And are counted as the small dust on the scales;
    v.17 All nations before Him are as nothing, And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
    v.21 … It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers…
    v.23 He brings the princes to nothing; He makes the judges of the earth useless.
    v.24 Scarcely shall they be planted, Scarcely shall they be sown, Scarcely shall their stock take root in the
    earth, When He will also blow on them, And they will wither, And the whirlwind will take them away like stubble.

    2)Therefore,when God asks or commands us to do something we should consider it a privilege. To be chosen by God to bear fruit that endure is the highest calling. (John 15:16) All other pursuits as Solomon puts it is, Meaningless,a chasing after the wind. Our obedience shows our love for Him.(John 14:15, John 14:21) It is also the proof of our faith.

    3) When God tells us to do something, it can be done because He has given us His power and the Holy Spirit to help us do it. It maybe a simple task or one that is humanly impossible to do like “telling Peter to walk on water” but because His authority is behind the command, it can be achieved. Besides, everything visible and invisible is under His control…

    4) God never demands of us what WE cannot do – just as an earthly father, sinful as he is, will not ask his child to do what the child cannot do, how much more our heavenly Father. When Jesus was born God knew that Joseph and Mary could not protect themselves against the power and cruelty of Herod – so God did not tell them to stay, but to flee to Egypt. David wrote in Ps. 103:14 ” For He knows our frame, He remembers that we are dust. ”

    5) God never asks for what He has not provided first. When He asks us to serve Him, He provides the strength to do it. When He asks us to give our offerings, He blesses us with the money and resources. When tells us to love others He loved us first.

    6) Doing does not accomplish anything unless it is done out of love for God. (I Cor 13:1-3)

  63. Marjorie says:

    Yes, God does demand of us things which we cannot do, and He does it to show us our sinfulness (Romans 3:20) and the necessity of our trusting in Christ (Romans 6:23) Who fulfilled the law on our behalf (Matthew 5:17) and then gave His perfect life as payment for our having missed the mark and to satisfy God’s justice. (I John 4:9-10) Each one of us deserves to be separated from Him for all eternity, but the wonder is that He intervened on our behalf because He loved us and wanted to give us the opportunity to be restored to fellowship with Him forever. (John 1:12) When we stop trusting in ourselves and our own vain striving and trust in Christ as our Lord and Savior (Luke 9:23), the Father sends the Holy Spirit to teach us and to work His will in us. (John 14:25-26; Philippians 2:13) All of that to say: the more simple we can keep things when talking with those who are really seeking to know God, the better. There are those who are gifted apologists, and I say more power to them as long as they do not get into heated arguments which do not serve God’s purpose (2 Timothy 2;24-25); but many people who claim to have profound questions quite simply take delight in “stumping” Christians, and they aren’t really seeking solid answers but want an excuse for their unbelief. Engaging in disputes with them can be titillating to our pride but lead to little else. (2 Timothy 2:23)

  64. Marjorie says:

    Oops! 2 Timothy 2:24-25

  65. oneg2dblu says:

    Marjorie… you bless us all with your words. Your thoughts about those who have unbelief, is right on. They are never done, with contentiuos arguments, and throwing in bold statements to keep one off balance, and off message.
    Well said, and very true. your verses to back up those words, speak volumes, and I see no “oops,” in any off them! :)

  66. foreverblessed says:

    VDoesn’t it work well, the bible verse-link? Great!
    Thanks for your prayers and concern. Regina, I have gone through a lot of these cures for years now. Forgiveness, hidden anger,
    The diet: (no alcohol, coffee, peanuts, chocolat,porc, sugar (the last one is hard to avoid). This diet is no problem, as some might think, drinking coffee and wime makes me sick immediately. A zip here and there is OK.
    They all make the migraine much less severe.
    Then more causes: muscle problems in the back going to the head,(they are still a problem too). It is also a female thing, getting older and losing certain hormones. So I now take soya tablets, with lots of steroids-like fats in soya. But it is still there. So I am at the stage of asking GOd to show me, I do not know where to look anymore. That’s what I say to God, help me…..

    Many people have migraines, allergies, reumatism, etc. I pray about this a lot, since I go to a church now, for 2 years, many in that church are ill, many with autism, with ADD.
    We christians in so many denominations, discuss about bible things, doctrines and the like.
    Why are we not worshiping Jesus together, in joy, in love, in praying for one another, asking for healing of spirit, soul and body. 1 Corinthians 11:30, does this verse have to say anything or does it not apply,
    Where is the unity, that the world could see it, the love among us? John13:34-35

  67. oneg2dblu says:

    royalpalm… lots to think about in your statement, love all the verses, but find the context of first staement, both true and troubling. True God needs nothing. But, God has this emotion called Desire, and He desires our Worship. He desires our works through His calling and commandments, rather than disobedience and unbelief. We can not truely Worsip what which we don’t already LOVE, so our act of worship is confirmation He desires. When God Commands us to go, and make disciples of all nations, He is using us, to be His Hands, feet and mouth to do His Work. Those nations, are the lost sheep that He values well beyond the ninety nine already captured by His Voice, and serving His every Command. For even the solitary lost one, is precious to Him, each one, He values greatly.
    So, I do not see why we should devalue any of His Created beings to nothing. Unless, that comparission is in realtion to Him, His Power, His Majesty, His Worth,
    then yes, we are but a speck of dust, but when we become His Possession, we are priceless to Him!
    Just a small point I could not overlook.
    You do bless us all, thanks, Gary

  68. SFDBWV says:

    “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” Ecclesiastes 12: 13

    You will never get a consensus on any subject where people’s opinions are concerned, never. There is always going to be someone who will disagree with another, with a grin full of teeth.

    Fog this morning, in the mountains of WV.

    Steve

  69. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart & Friends!

    Mart, you write: “Never before have I wanted so much to see– and to loosen my grip on– those assumptions that say more about what I don’t know… than about those matters that most of us would agree God has clearly revealed.”

    I am in accord with your statement and the deep desire it expresses to “let go” and depend upon what the Lord is revealing as I hold steadily to him. Lord, guide me in this!

    It seems to me that in the market-place (in the apostle Paul’s time and in our own)the old fallen nature resorts to empirical evidence or even logical proof to establish validity and then “truth.” In that arena all persons are adversaries — and the only game is competition.

    The immense scope of Scripture’s narrative is from the Creation to the fullness of Christ’s Kingdom. In it, men are asserting: “If …; then …” God always proclaims by prophets and apostles: “Because…; therefore…” — as in “because I live, you also shall live.”

    Can it be the first set of three dominoes is being raised “not by might nor by power…” — while the second set of many dominoes is being knocked down by force?

  70. poohpity says:

    Some may think that the answer to the first paragraph is in our logic “no” but according to the bible the answer is a Marjorie said, “yes”. A very good example is Noah and all the people who were killed in the flood as just one example.

  71. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… you’ve lost me on that one. I think I’m dwelling on the wrong paragraph… you must mean that Noah had to let go.
    Noah heard the calling and responded, so even though the task he was asked to do seemed impossible, or even crazy. He was not unbelieving or disobedient, he performed the task to completion, without using common human logic, because building a boat in the desert is not a common endeavor, and He did it only because He believed, and performed using his faith in God! Faith trumps logic on any level, if God is in the driver’s seat. Sorry for that analogy, but I am a driver by design, His! :)

  72. oneg2dblu says:

    steve… are all our disagreemnets teethy in nature to you, or is it just consesus opinionated ones?
    How about the most learned biblical schollars who disagree on many parts in scripture, causing many interpretations, and translations? How about all our religious differences, do they also qualify?
    Aren’t we entitled to have an opinion, that may differ without becoming “sinical.(PUN INTENDED) or toothy?”
    I see no adverse opinions being rendered here, so far, that would challenge, “Fear God and Keep His Commandments” I bleive we all agree on that!
    Those who do not agree,probably suffer with unbelief and disobedience. Gary :( No teeth showing here!
    We just can’t help our enthusiasm for Our God, it is contagious. You bless us all Brother :)

  73. poohpity says:

    Gary what happened to the population of the earth at the time of Noah? God intervened with Noah but let the rest of the population suffer the consequences of the rules God set before them without the ability to obey because they did not know what those rules were.

  74. poohpity says:

    How about all the laws in Leviticus? God knew they could not follow those laws but yet they had to endure the consequences of not following them.

  75. poohpity says:

    The logical consequences of sin is death as per the OT. God knew we would not or could not follow the law and many suffered the consequences of breaking the law and some were put to death even when they did not have the law.

  76. florida7sun says:

    “I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death.” – Philippians 3:10

    This expression of Paul has great meaning to me. Years after my salvation, I too hungered to know Him more deeply, and prayed that He would crush me.

    He did. God does answer prayer. He is a miracle worker in crushing and creating.

    “Becoming like Him in His death,” we gain new insight into His Resurrection Power.

    The Word has been understood and debated from the Garden of Eden up through this posting on BTA. It will continue to be discussed. More books and commentaries will be written.

    Its power though is turned on through personal application and surrender to His Lordship.

    He is Sovereign.

    His Presence is seen all around us. He knows us. He is faithful to His Word.

    With each new day He gives us more and more light, for like Moses we would perish in our flesh if we saw Him face-to-face.

    God bless you all, Ray

  77. Marjorie says:

    oneg2dblu, the “oops” was because I made a mistake in the passage link so it didn’t work. Thank you for the encouragement about comments made. I had better comment as much as the Spirit leads since work is waiting when recovery is complete, but we do enjoy our work–don’t we? :-)

  78. Marjorie says:

    foreverblessed, 1 Corinthians 11:30 refers to those who were being punished for using the Lord’s table to feed their stomachs and become drunk rather than reverently remembering Christ’s body and blood given for them, and they were taking part carelessly without confessing and repenting of their sins. I wish we could talk directly about your physical trials, but I am paranoid about Facebook even though I do have an account. :-/ I am praying for you that you would find relief. Do you have Yahoo! Messenger? I love to IM.

  79. foreverblessed says:

    Marjorie, thank you sooo much for your concern, it does real good to me, this must be what Christ meant that we love one another, we carry each other’s load. I am not on facebook, or any other public “thing”, so I do not know how to get in contact, I asked the RBC but they do not give such service.

    Everything is allright, it is in Gods hands. I want to have faith in Him more and more, and not to look at the waves when they roar. Matthew 14:29

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