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For Heretics and Love

Photo by: Karl-Ludwig Poggermann

Marcion of Sinope’ was a Bishop of the early Church (2nd century) who had a hard time reconciling the Gods of the Old and New Testaments. Without completely rejecting the Jewish Scriptures, he apparently found a way of seeing the God of the Jews as different than the God revealed in Christ.

Like so many other readers of the Old Testament, Marcion believed that the God he found there was a jealous tribal deity marked by a legalistic kind of justice. He saw the God who punished offenders with suffering and justice as being different from the loving God revealed in Christ. In time his views caused him to be declared a heretic and was excommunicated by Church Fathers. (see Wikipedia summary).

In this light, I found it interesting that The Word Biblical Commentary links the Apostle John’s description of Jesus as “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14, 16-18) to a common way of describing the covenant keeping God of the Old Testament.

This commentary, along with others, points to the way God described himself as he gave Moses the Ten Commandments. Of that occasion Moses writes, “Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.  And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, “keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.” (Exod 34:5-7).

Referring to God’s self-revelation as “merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,” the commentary goes on to say that “grace” is the New Testament equivalent to the covenant mercy and “gracious constancy” (also  translated by the OT as the “lovingkindness”) of God.

The WBC goes on to point out that when John, in turn, speaks of “truth” he is doing so in a way that brings together the Hebrew and Greek meanings of “truth”. For instance, the Hebrew Scriptures use truth in a way that carries the idea of firmness and stability. When it is used of persons it represents steadfastness, trustworthiness, faithfulness, and reliability. By comparison and contrast, the Greeks saw truth as representing that which “really is”.

So what does all of this mean for us when we find Jesus revealing a God who is full of grace and truth?  Instead of coming to the conclusions of Marcion who saw “different Gods”, I believe we need to see the justice of God in the Old Testament, not as something contrary to his love, but rather as a way of expressing his love.

I’m convinced that if we could see the big picture we would see that God’s holy justice is born out of his concern for those who are being ruined and tormented by evil.

For example, prior to the judgments of the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah, God sees the evil, injustice, and suffering of those who are being tormented by self-absorbed, out-of-control communities (Gen 6:5); (Gen 18:20-21); (Gen 19:4-7); (Ezekiel 16:49-50).

Yet, in time, this same God shows his gracious lovingkindness not only for the people of Israel (which the prophet Jonah would have preferred), but also for the people and animals of Nineveh (the violent Assyrian enemies of Israel) (Jonah 4:10-11).

It is this lovingkindness of God that spills over and over in every verse of the 136th Psalm…for his mercy endures forever (Psalm 136:1-26).

At this point, I need to stop and admit, that yes, it is still difficult for me to understand the judgments of the God of the Old Testament. But it’s not as though I can ignore either that the New Testament ends with even greater, apocalyptic waves of judgment in its concluding Revelation.

But here’s where I want to land. Whatever we don’t understand in either what precedes or follows John 1:14, 16, and 17, all must be understood in light of John’s words, “So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness” (John 1:14 NLT).

Admittedly, I actually appreciate “Marcion the Heretic’s” struggle with the judgment and anger of the God of the Old Testament. I do too (and especially as I see it come to fulfillment in the visions of the Apostle John’s last words and Revelation.) But all of that must be in some mysterious way consistent with what God revealed in his Son.

In some way that God has not yet revealed, when he describes himself as a Consuming Fire (Heb 12:29), he must be signalling to us, not just a burning holiness, but a holiness that is destined to blast away all and anything that is not full of– and protected by– his unfailing love and faithfulness.

If Jesus was full of unfailing love and faithfulness, it is because his Father (and Spirit) is too. And if the Father, Son, and Spirit are full of unfailing love and faithfulness (truth and grace), then let’s pray together that God would enable the same to be said…increasingly…of us…


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45 Responses to “For Heretics and Love”

  1. remarutho says:

    Good Morning, Mart & Friends!
    Marcion, bless his well-meaning heart, left no space in the weaving of his faith for “Mystery.” Some today, in the Church, take a black sharpie pen to the passages of the OT that tell of the God of vengeance. Same God who cleanses and pours out eternal lovingkindness! Marcion missed the cut for “hero of the faith” awards.

    Mart, you touch upon the mystery of faith when you write:
    “In some way that God has not yet revealed, when he describes himself as a Consuming Fire (Heb 12:29), he must be signaling to us, not just a burning holiness, but a holiness that is destined to blast away all and anything that is not full of– and protected by– his unfailing love and faithfulness.”

    Fast-forward to Peter’s first letter to the “exiles of the Dispersion.” It was rough going in those towns he names (1 Peter 1:1-2). From Nero to Domitian, Roman emperors had it in for the poor Christians (rich Christians as well). As the first letter to the embattled churches ends, Peter prophesies: (1 Peter 4:17) “For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, what will be the end for those who do not obey the gospel of God?”

    We are more urgently called in these days to be about the discipling and equipping and sending of persons of all ages and all walks of life into the cultural wasteland! The time has come for judgment to begin – and some, if not all, our baggage will be weighed, measured and burned up as we go.

    In Him,
    Maru

  2. florida7sun says:

    Not looking back; not relying on his education or the opinions of men; not burdened with beatings and stripes inflicted upon him; the Apostle Paul kept his focus on his Savior’s cross. An encounter with our Lord has a way of keeping everything in proper perspective:

    “But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.” – Philippians 3:7-11

    Jesus is all sufficient. In Him is life, the light of mankind.

  3. poohpity says:

    If God in the OT was not merciful and full of grace then why would he send prophet upon prophet to tell people to return to putting God first in their lives then all would go well. Major and minor prophets all had the same message return to the God of your ancestors look to Him and not what their neighbors did. When troops were going to invade God said, “You ask everyone around you for help and never ask me”.

    I agree there are things that happened that seem harsh and I may never understand why they happened. My understanding is totally incomplete but God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I think what truly changes is God reveals more knowledge to us about God. Paul put it so wonderfully in Colossians 1:26-27; 2:2-3. Isaiah also reveals that same secret in 7:14.

  4. alegria says:

    I’m reminded of God’s mercy to Ruth, a Moabite, in the OT. And his care for Rahab – because she trusted him enough to shelter the Israelite spies. I think of Joshua, Moses, Daniel, Joseph, David. All of them were leaders of their people in the O.T., and not a single one of them could have done it without God’s grace, mercy and justice in their lives. Yet none of them had easy lives – as we do not. When you live by faith, you have to accept the grace, mercy and justice God pours out on you and cling tight when life is hard and you don’t understand what He’s doing.

    I really don’t “like” the God of judgment we see in the O.T., in Daniel, in Revelation. Sometimes I wish I didn’t believe in a literal hell. It’s tough to explain to nonbelievers that the “God of Love” would send someone to hell. But God is God. As Maru said, He’s a God of mystery. I agree with Pooh that He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

  5. poohpity says:

    I wonder if God sends them to hell or people make that choice themselves by not wanting a relationship with God and decide to be eternally separated from Him?

  6. bubbles says:

    always saw it as a choice the individual made. The consequences are laid out in the Word. Their choice is what sends them. They don’t have to make the choice.

  7. mareed1 says:

    I agree that God doesn’t change, therefore we have to be reconciled in our mind that the “Christ” who came not to judge the world but to save it, (Jn. 12:47b) came because the God of the Old Testament has a growing love and concern for what is best for humanity as a whole. Like you said, righteous people cry out to God when injustice prevails, as in Sodom and Gomorrah, Elijah, and David. Just in my own personal observation and studies, it seems to me that we (people)bring about our own demise. He sent Jonah and that entire city repented and escaped destruction. If God put us in charge of His creation to lovingly care for it and it’s inhabitants, why should we expect to go unscathed when we fail to do that? He would not be a loving God if he allowed all injustice to go unpunished. Why would I want to serve a God who never had my “back” or failed to judge fairly when someone abused me? If I break the law of the land (our laws) is it not fair for me to pay the penalty? Praise God that He is providing for us a scapegoat when we all fail at obeying His laws for His creation on loan to us. People don’t want to believe that a “loving” God would send people to Hell, because they don’t want to admit it’s deserved. Christ said, “This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.” Light will expose the evil men do in darkness, even the darkness of our hearts and thoughts. Would any of us escape just punishment without God and His Son? Not likely. It sounds to me as if this, Marcion, might’ve been trying to avoid admitting that he needed to get in line for his just deserts. Like me, he wants to have the “scapegoat” that ol’ mean, wrathful God of the Old testament so lovingly provided. What I don’t understand is why so many choose to ignore the provision. I guess that’s why there were two criminals on Golgotha hanging there beside Christ. One chose to accept that he deserved what he was getting and reached for the “scapegoat”, while the other said “no thanks, I’d rather die than admit that I need God’s help.” I think the God of the Old and the New Testament aren’t that hard to reconcile as the same God.

  8. alegria says:

    Good thoughts. I’d never looked at it as the sinner’s choice….but it is. God provided a way to be saved eternally. Thanks Pooh and Mareed. You’ve given me a new way to think, and a new way to respond to unbelievers.

  9. Regina says:

    Good Evening All

    Hope all is well in your lives and that you’re having a good weekend. I was so glad to be able to go to the house of the LORD today. I don’t think it’s a small thing that we’re able to worship our LORD Jesus freely in this great country called America (hoping that my dear brothers & sisters who live in other countries are enjoying the same freedoms that my fellow American brothers/sisters and I are enjoying).

    Interesting blog topic, Mart. Was thinking about the picture you included in this blog, and I was wondering if climbing and descending that staircase was a (possible) punishment for anyone who was labeled a heretic during the 2nd Century (early church years).
    Thinking that would be a horrible punishment if someone was forced to do that for hours on end.

    Seems to me that it would be great fun (if not good exercise) to attempt to climb a staircase like that everyday. Only thing is I would only be interested in doing it until I got tired. After that, I would want to stop. Thinking the descent would be the best part! :-)

    Sunny and warm in Texas today (92 degrees right now).

  10. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart!

    I agree with your broad view of God’s working in the world. You wrote:
    “I’m convinced that if we could see the big picture we would see that God’s holy justice is born out of his concern for those who are being ruined and tormented by evil.”

    It seems to me that we humans, in our finite being, are not equipped to step back far enough, if you will, to conceive of the purposes of our infinite God. I do not despair of learning more and more of his divine character and his will for his people – his world – even his universe. Still, particularly in great natural or political cataclysms and massive upheavals, I can do no more than watch and pray. David’s psalm of adoration comes to mind, “I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me.” (Psalm 131:1)

    All the more wonder that God’s lovinkindness and his holiness are manifested in individuals, in small groups and in large groups of believing people – and even in unbelieving people!

    Mart, do you think that human beings, when their humanity is restored to wholeness by faith in Christ, realize that they/we are completely dependent upon God for everything?

    Is that truly the difference between the saved and the unsaved?

    Blessings,
    Maru

  11. SFDBWV says:

    I love my wife, my son, my family, I have friends I can say that I love, and yes I love God. The people I love are complex and distinctly individual and I love them for that too.

    None of them have to conform to my idea of what they should be in order for me to love them, they all are who they are, just as I am who I am, and they all love me warts and all.

    In order to know God, He has given us a history of His presence among man, from creation into the future.

    The question arises; does God want us to know Him? Does it matter to Him what we think of Him?

    After all He is omnipotent, omnipresent; He is able to exact His will in all matters. Why should it matter to Him what we think of Him?

    For His purposes, it does matter that He is seen by man to be fair and just. His righteousness exposes our unrighteousness.

    All throughout the OT each time God shown mercy toward any individual it was to further His plans and His will. Not for the purpose of giving mercy upon that individual, though that individual was blessed as a result of being used of God for His purposes.

    Even all throughout the NT, the mercy shown toward individuals was done so as to further God’s will.

    People have a difficult time accepting that life is not about them, but is about God. That it is what He wants that is important, not what we want. That only when our desires align with His desires can we expect to see the desires of our heart to be made manifest.

    I do not want anyone to think that we do not have value; we have value over all the beasts of the earth, even value above the angels as only man is offered grace. Grace that comes from an action we only partially can understand.

    It is His will that none should perish…So He perished in our place. I don’t believe we can fully understand this action.

    Unfortunately too many Christians take this act of sacrifice for granted and truly do not appreciate what God has done for them. Worse, some Christians all throughout history have attempted to reinvent God and explain Him.

    As I see it, today is no different, not only is God reinvented, but Christ and Christianity is as well. It could succeed except for two things…The Word and The Holy Spirit.

    The Word exposes God to be the same from Genesis to Revelation and the same this very moment, the Holy Spirit convicts us of this Truth. So if we reject the Truth, we reject God and the whole of our belief system falls apart. Because it is built on sand not the Rock of our salvation.

    Steve

  12. florida7sun says:

    Beautifully expressed Steve. You and Julie Ackerman Link, writer of today’s ODB, are blessings this Monday morning. Best wishes to all for a wonderful day.

  13. tracey5tgbtg says:

    I believe God is the same always, from the beginning of time until its end and beyond that. I think even today we cannot begin to comprehend the fullness of God. I also think the perception and understanding of a people who lived 3500 years ago is different, not better, not worse, just different from the perception of people a thousand, two thousand, or five thousand years later.

    I know that all Scripture is God-breathed and inspired by the Holy Spirit, yet each author puts his own stamp on what he writes. Different books such as Genesis, Job, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Isaiah, Luke, John etc. carry the personality of the author and the way of life of the author. If the Old Testament seems different it is because its authors viewed God differently. No one has ever been able to wrap their minds around God and fit God into themselves. God fits us into Him. His thoughts and ways are far above ours.

    I think that is why the Bible is written by so many different people. No one man could capture every aspect of God in his writing. That must have been Marcion’s problem. He wanted to take just one aspect of God’s character and say this is it. This is the one I like and feel comfortable with.

    Every description of God fits God, yet no matter how long I ponder everything written, I will never be able to see God as He is. Our human brains were not built to contain the infinite.

    Even the posts on this blog “sound” different because the different personalities show through. Yet we all worship the same God. We all love Jesus Christ and believe He is the Son of God, the Savior of our souls.

  14. remarutho says:

    Good Morning,Mart & Friends!

    Steve, you wrote:

    “The Word exposes God to be the same from Genesis to Revelation and the same this very moment, the Holy Spirit convicts us of this Truth. So if we reject the Truth, we reject God and the whole of our belief system falls apart. Because it is built on sand not the Rock of our salvation.”

    Beautiful and nicely rounded thought. The cosmos was breathed into being from “what is not seen” by the breath of God’s nostril. It is precisely those ousted from Eden and sent to toil by the sweat of their brow (male and female) over whom God’s mighty heart travails and groans. He has the fallen and lost in his sites — he pursues them/us mightily, raising awesome divets in the turf of the universe as he chases after them/us. There is no escape from the circle of God’s lovingkindness — even his holiness.

    I am so grateful!

    Blessings,
    Maru

  15. Charis says:

    Mart,

    Have you heard about Prof. David T. Lamb’s new book? Seems to fit with the questions you (and Marcion) ask. “God Behaving Badly: Is the God of the Old Testament Angry, Sexist and Racist?”. There’s a free preview on google books (and I’ve no vested interest other than his topic sounds quite intriguing- addressing questions we all seem to have).

  16. poohpity says:

    With this topic in mind I was reading the book of Amos this morning who was nobody the world would have called special, he was a shepherd and a farmer yet God asked him to deliver a message against their complacency, idolatry, oppression of the poor, cutting babies out of the wombs of pregnant women and enslaving others. The message was “I want to see a mighty flood of justice—a torrent of doing good” Amos 5:24 Sounds a bit like grace and mercy to me because before God enacted any type of action against those who were doing wrong God sent a prophet to tell them exactly what would happen if they did not choose to do the right and good things.

    If God was as some say a brutal task master like it is “my way or the highway” kind of God then why would He ever send warnings about the horrible acts that people were doing to each other because they were not putting God first in their lives or treating others with love. Left to their own over the years Israel had walked away from the God who loved them so much even to call them His chosen people. The things they did apart from God were unfathomable to me yet they are very similar to what happens in today’s world we just have become desensitized.

    Unfailing love and faithfulness is seen in the God of the OT and the NT because it is the same God who never gives up on trying to teach us to love Him above all else and to love others. His will revealed in the truth and grace of Jesus Christ who is still trying to teach us through the Holy Spirit that with that Will in our hearts, minds and souls will prompt us to display those same characteristics that we have been shown through the Cross.

  17. poohpity says:

    Steve, how come in the last topic you said, “When I look at the God of the OT, I don’t see much grace shown towards His followers. What comes through is a God who punishes for every infraction. Sometimes for even just questioning His actions or lack of them.” Now in this topic you said, “The Word exposes God to be the same from Genesis to Revelation and the same this very moment, the Holy Spirit convicts us of this Truth.” So is God to you a punishing God in both the OT and the NT?

  18. Ted M. Gossard says:

    Amen. Thanks, Mart! Yeah, we have to be careful readers and take in the whole story. I like the way that you express that God’s justice comes from his love. I agree wholeheartedly! Judgment in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament is most often seen in a positive light, especially so in the psalms. But actually everywhere. It is like judgment always precedes salvation, or we could say in truth, is the first part of salvation. Of course fulfilled on the cross in Christ’s death, and someday to be completed/climaxed when he returns to right all wrongs and make all things new.

  19. royalpalm says:

    Hello, BTA friends,

    We are created in God’s image and share in some of His attributes – love, mercy, faithfulness, etc. However, there are attributes that belong to God alone like Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Eternal, Holiness.

    God’s holiness makes Him distinct and separate from all His creations. It is not just perfection or sinless purity, but also denotes majesty that transcends human thought and imagination.

    The Hebrew language repeats words for emphasis and to express superlative degree. The word “holy, holy, holy” is the only attribute of God repeated in this manner: in the O.T. Isaiah 6:3 and in the N. T. Revelation 4:8 both
    spoken by angels to declare the glory and majesty of God and also to address the Trinity of God. The fact that the phrase is found in both the O.T. and N.T. signifies that God never changes. (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8) His holiness is eternal, just as He is eternal. Everything He does is holy, pure, and perfect. For example the 10 commandments reflects His righteous and holy character – rather than a standard for man to attain. He never changed but provided Jesus as the only sacrifice needed to meet His holy requirements.

    If you and I would look only at ourselves – we become judges and critics of God’s grace, mercy, justice – like
    Marcion : God is too harsh, angry, or that He is a God of wrath in the O.T. and God of love in the N.T. But if we ponder on the holiness of God, we would see ourselves as God sees us – sinners under God’s wrath and judgment. And like the writers of the Scriptures, we would marvel at God’s love, grace and mercy. He sent His Son to reveal this truth. God saves us not because we are lovable but because of His holy character – it is part of His righteousness to save.

    God created everything for His own glory. Nature does it everyday. (Psalm 19:1,2). The angels sing day and night
    proclaiming it. (Rev. 4:11).Jesus left His glory in heaven and came to bring glory to His heavenly Father. (John 17:4,5). Jesus came to save us because in our old nature we cannot glorify Him. Ony a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, born into the kingdom of God can honor God. God created everything for His own pleasure and purpose, man included.

    Rev. 4:11 “ You are worthy, O Lord,To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.”

    Rom. 11:36 “For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

  20. poohpity says:

    royalpalm, you stated, “God created everything for His own pleasure and purpose, man included.” Did God need the earth, universe and it’s inhabitants for His pleasure and purpose or did He create them for our pleasure and sustenance and for us to recognize that there is a God who was capable of doing such wonderful things? If God created for His own pleasure and purpose why did He give us freewill?

  21. poohpity says:

    Didn’t God already have all honor and glory before He created us?

  22. florida7sun says:

    Thank you royalpalm.

    I have discovered that wisdom in comprehending God’s justice and grace is not found in the mind. Our intellect and recitation of knowledge is of little value without an overwhelming love and desire for Him to be Lord in every facet of our lives.

    As we treasure His commandments and seek understanding from His Word, His wisdom is placed in our hearts to give us understanding. – Proverbs 2

    With the Lord Jesus I can rest and not be troubled. I am comforted by His assurance of love and His abiding grace. His gift of faith has given me peace.

  23. davids says:

    Hi Poohpity,

    I think se are mixing up two meanings of the word pleasure. The modern meaning is “enjoyment”. The older meaning was that it pleased him to do so – that he felt it right. As one might say, “I stay in my position at the President’s pleasure.”

    Kindly, David

  24. poohpity says:

    I agree with the enjoyment of doing it but what I was trying to understand was it sounded like it all was created for God’s enjoyment not because God wanted us to enjoy and recognize God in and through His creation. Which would also show how much we are loved and how that shows God’s grace, unfathomable love and faithfulness in the OT rather than a punitive God. Thank you for discussing this with me. I really enjoy talking through things for a better understanding.

  25. remarutho says:

    The LORD told Moses, as the man sought to know Him better — to learn how to please Him: “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” (Exodus 33:14). Aquinas said that God is the source of “profoundest joy.” To seek God is to “seek the joy of God’s presence — the ground of true happiness.” (Tom Oden, “The Living God”)

    Isn’t joy shared more joyful than solo joy? Our triune God invites us into the “inner circle.” The circle of God’s love is the only source of joy. If His power is the most powerful & his knowing is the most knowledgeable, isn’t his joy is the most joyful?

    In Him,
    Maru

  26. Regina says:

    Good Evening All

    Well said, mareed1 (July 10, 2011 at 5:58 pm)! :-)

    Sunny and hot in Texas today (94 degrees right now).

  27. Regina says:

    I agree with what you said, tracey5tgbtg (July 11, 2011 at 7:23 am).

  28. Regina says:

    Was wondering why this blog was written “for heretics and love?” Was it written for “heretics” so they could get a better understanding of how the God of the Old Testament desired to woo His creation (man) back to Him with a lavish new covenant of grace and mercy as recorded in the New Testament? And was it written for “love” because the more we seek to understand and know God, the more He reveals Himself to us, which helps us to realize that we receive His mercy, grace and provision everyday, and that’s when we discover that God truly is love?

  29. SFDBWV says:

    The problem with trying to come to terms with God’s many facets is the limitations we have in being able to relate as well as the many doors that are opened in other tangents related to the subject.

    Start with *why*; why did God create anything? Was there a flaw in His ability to create angels and men who rebelled against Him? Why did God put the two trees in the Garden? One which if eaten could bring disaster to all of His work, the other if eaten gave eternal life.

    Speaking of which didn’t Adam already possess eternal life so long as he obeyed?

    Ephesians 1: 4 says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love. Verse 5 says we were predestined to be adopted to Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

    Reading on we come to verse 9 which says, “Having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He had purposed in Himself..”

    Verse 10 and 11 states He will gather all together in Christ, all which are in heaven on the earth and even in Him; being predestinated according to the purposes of Him who works all things after the council of His own will.

    Isaiah 46: 9-10 “: for I am God and there is none else; I am God, there is none like Me.”, My council shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.”

    I would suggest one read all of Isaiah 45 and 46, as here we have God speaking plainly, He will do as He will. As we read in Ephesians 1, here we still see that same God doing His will as He always planned to.

    We might argue amongst ourselves, but the written Word of God cannot be argued against.

    Steve

  30. Toml5169 says:

    When we consider how God is revealed in the old testament I would like to suggest we listen to a man after God’s own heart when he himself (David) had greatly sinned by taking the census.
    14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.” David saw God as full of mercy and when faced with punishment for his sin chose God as the one to carry that out and not his enemies. Seems David understood well the heart of God and of man; and chose wisely. One who doesn’t see God in the NT as bringing judgement and yes even wrath needs to look more closely at the cross. Never before or I would think ever again will ee see a more true depiction of God’s mercy and justice combined. Yet in His love the punishment fell on Jesus.
    Be blessed my friends.
    Tom in Portland OR

  31. Toml5169 says:

    Forgot to give the reference 2 Sam. 24

  32. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    This conversation does tend to teeter-totter, don’t you think? Mart, the statement you made as you put forth the topic haunts me — though I rely minute by minute on the New Covenant:

    You wrote:
    “At this point, I need to stop and admit, that yes, it is still difficult for me to understand the judgments of the God of the Old Testament. But it’s not as though I can ignore either that the New Testament ends with even greater, apocalyptic waves of judgment in its concluding Revelation.”

    Our Lord Jesus Christ is always and forever obedient to the Father and to the moving of the Holy Spirit — as they adore Him and one another. When all things submit to His sovereign will, the destruction will make The Flood and Sodom & Gomorrah look like a Sunday picnic.

    I am willing to be always mindful of the unlimited power of my God — but I slip sometimes and underestimate that awesome omnipotence. I am pretty sure we are not going to ease through the coming trials and tribulations — and simply move into the heavenly mansion. The body of Christ, it seems, will be working ’til the end. I pray I do not become lazy as I hope to be the body of the One who is “the fullness of him who fills all in all.” (Ephesians 1:23)

    Blessings,
    Maru

  33. poohpity says:

    Maru, “this conversation does tend to teeter-totter” is such a graceful way of putting it. :-)

  34. SFDBWV says:

    We talk a great deal here about the differences between wisdom and knowledge. Yet they are two points that cross paths as both help us toward the other.

    It is written that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; and the knowledge of the Holy is understanding. Proverbs 9: 10

    Knowledge of God points us toward a fear and respect for Him, and causes us to become humble and realize that the big picture is not about us, but is all about Him.

    The religious people of the OT were confronted with an entirely different view of God when Jesus of Nazareth began preaching. Suddenly God was being portrayed as a loving Father not as a strict disciplinarian.

    This is one of the stumbling blocks they encountered in accepting Jesus as to be from God. As He was portraying a radical different view of God then they had been taught to believe.

    If only they had studied and searched out the Truth of scripture they could have seen that not only is God a loving Father but was in fact right there in their midst in the flesh and person of Jesus of Nazareth.

    However they failed to look to the scripture for Truth, and used only that part of scripture to keep people in fear and under control.

    They ignored the Truth and rejected God.

    We must learn from their mistakes, and be wise in what knowledge we have attained. We must be diligent in the Word and not be misled by any reason.

    We must believe what God says and be saved from many evils, including the evil of ignorance of who God is and what He wants from us, and what it is He offers us.

    Proverbs 3: 5-6 “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.” “In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.”

    Steve

  35. poohpity says:

    It would be nice if when we consider God that we take ourselves out of trying to emulate a God that is being punitive, condemning or harsh and as Mart’s prayer suggests be full of the Spirit of unfailing love and faithfulness (truth and grace). The world would be a much nicer place with the Holy Spirit living through us to show that those who need the unfailing love of God have a safe place to go just as we have experienced full of Grace.

  36. simplygrateful says:

    I appreciate the deep and thoughtful comments on this blog. I can tell the ones that are full of truth and grace. I can tell in the way they are presented that you are lead by the Spirit. I don’t appear often but do read the blog often. Pooh is right that we need a safe place to go to find the unfailing love of God. And a place that is full of Grace. What you are not right about if always finding snide remaks behind comments that have those places and that is what I seem to find behind most of Steve’s Spirt lead, caring heartfelt remarks. It is almost like jealousy and competition. Very heartbreaking and upsetting. Where is the love, truth and grace in that.

  37. poohpity says:

    Thank you simplygraeful for the feedback. I always felt it was the other way around so I was just fouling myself. Thank you for pointing it out to me I will pay closer attention to how I respond. It is not a competition in any manor, nor an argument, nor patronizing, nor who is right or who’s wrong, nor who’s side we are on because hopefully we will look to the Lord and not to the bloggers on this sight for understanding or guidance and mutual respect for our host and his topics. Again thank you for sharing what you have noticed about me it will help me grow and change being aware of how I am perceived.

  38. poohpity says:

    Forgive me Steve for being prideful!

  39. poohpity says:

    I am also thankful simplygrateful that you felt safe sharing your perception with me. Sometimes the truth can shake us up a bit. :-)

  40. poohpity says:

    I also wanted to add there are times when comments are submitted when another is also writing so they may not be directed at another but only in reference to the topic.

  41. SFDBWV says:

    Simplygrateful, thank you so very much for your remarks, you have brought tears to my eyes, thank you.

    Pooh as always I am ready to forgive, all you need ever to do is ask, thank you for asking…I forgive you.

    Steve

  42. Regina says:

    Off topic here…
    My state has been declared a disaster area (Texas has incurred billions of dollars in lost revenue due to the drought)due to several consecutive 100+ degree days. Heard that several states were having serious heat issues because of unusually hot temperatures. Appears to be a sign of the end times to me.

  43. royalpalm says:

    Pooh, thanks for your (July 11)question – I too, learn a lot by asking for help, and thanks Davids for helping me. (July 11 posts). As Davids said, it is God’s prerogative/exclusive right to do what He wants and He created everything even the farthest galaxies that we cannot see – for Himself.

    God’s purpose in creating man(Adam) was to give him dominion over God’s creation as His steward/manager Gen. 1:26. and the privilege to use and enjoy it.(Gen. 1:29-30) God created man in His own image – with intellect, emotions and free-will so He can communicate with him His wishes and commands.In the Bible God never asks man for his suggestions, ideas, or opinions. He tells him what to do. Man’s free will was given to test his love, loyalty, and faithfulness to God.

  44. royalpalm says:

    Hello, again. I guess this BTA topic keeps my mind churning :)

    Regarding the “Heretics and love”, is understandable to see why Marcion like so many other readers of the O.T.
    saw the God who punished offenders with suffering and justice as being different from the loving God revealed in Christ. As Ted M Gossard (July 11 11:22a.m) pointed out we have to be careful readers and take in the whole story…

    The O.T. covers a longer period of time (about 2000 yrs. from Abraham to Jesus + ? years before Abraham). There we read about God’s direct involvement with the people starting with Adam and later the nation of Israel. We learn about God and His attributes (Creator, Omnipotent, etc) and His character (loving kindness, faithfulness , mercy, etc. along with justice and judgment.) The N.T. covers only about 100 yrs. God was seen as a loving God in Jesus who died and rose again to save and redeem us, full of grace and truth.

    However, we need to also remember, as Mart pointed out, this same God is also righteous who will not acquit the
    guilty who refuse to acknowledge God their creator and honor Him, and accept the provision to escape their
    punishment in the free gift of salvation provided through Jesus. Jesus, Paul and NT writers wrote of God’s wrath and judgment.

    When Jesus started His ministry in Galilee, He declared what He came to do by reading from the book of Isaiah
    “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD” (Luke 4:18-19). This was what Jesus did in the 3 years of His ministry. However, in quoting from Isaiah 61:1,2, Jesus omitted the last line “And the day of vengeance of our God;”

    The day of vengeance will be exercised by Jesus when He judges the whole world (2 Tim 4:1).This will be preceded
    by the great Tribulation when the wrath of God will be poured out against all humanity. The book of Revelation was written to inform us of future events and to warn and encourage us to be faithful. John advised everyone to read it. (Rev. 1:3 )Revelation 14:14-20 gives us a glimpse of God’s wrath exercised by the Son of Man. Revelation 6-20 give more details of God’s judgment. It is a time of suffering that is hard to describe but the eternal lake of fire is even beyond our imagination or comprehension.

    When God liberated Israel from slavery He led them through the wilderness to Mt. Sinai where He appeared to them in fire, lightnings, thunder,trumpets, earthquakes, smoke and cloud…Ex. 19:18, Ex. 20:18. God did this to
    impress upon His people His holiness, majesty, and glory and to instill upon them a reverence(fear) for God.

    Today, a lot of people, including Christians, take God’s holiness for granted – thus His grace is not fully
    appreciated. Oftentimes, rather than revered, God is mocked. Nahum 1-4 warns us “God is jealous, and the LORD
    avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath
    for His enemies; The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked.”

    This is the time of God’s grace, love, and mercy, when “whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”
    Rom. 10:13. and to receive God’s love,” But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. ” Rom. 5:8 and be saved from death. Eph. 2:8,-10., John 3:16. This is the time for us to pray -to approach God’s throne of grace and mercy with boldness as He bids us -for the salvation of those who do not acknowledge Jesus – that they may glorify Him, starting with our own family an loved ones.

    May the Lord bless you and use you mightily and may you bear fruit that lasts to eternity…

  45. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mar & Friends —

    Cannot sleep in anticipation of a Christian retreat that will begin today. May the Lord show forth his sweet lovingkindness and his fierce faithfulness to the participants! I pray this in Jesus’ name.

    Mart, you wrote:
    “But here’s where I want to land. Whatever we don’t understand in either what precedes or follows John 1:14, 16, and 17, all must be understood in light of John’s words, “So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love (hesed) and faithfulness (amahd)” (John 1:14 NLT).”

    As I read over the first chapter of John’s gospel, I can only marvel that a human being — divinely conceived in the womb of a woman — could be all the places and do all the things Jesus of Nazareth does! The apostle John is among those who lived with Jesus, as he said: “which we have heard, which we have seen withour eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life.” (1 John 1:1)

    All the gospel writers seem to stretch the capacity of human language in describing the One who “was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.” (John 1:10). John calls Jesus the “true light.” (verse 9) I remember those moments when the disciples experienced Jesus’ presence in a glorious form, as on the mount of transfiguration — or when he stretched out his hand and calmed the storm on the lake.

    How blessed we are to have these transforming words of witness! What has and is and will be accomplished among those who “see his glory” (John 1:14) because of the faithful witness of the gospel! Words really do fall short of conveying Christ’s unfailing love and faithfulness. God must breathe upon the word and the reader. At some point, each one who receives crosses a threshhold from hearing to believing — and from believing to worshiping — and from worshiping to action in this world. Grace and truth cannot be suppressed. May his followers be filled, equipped and sent.

    In Him,
    Maru

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