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Jesus or Paul?

In our earlier discussion of “The Gambler” one of our friends started a discussion that seems to pit Paul against Jesus, and “life in the Spirit of Jesus” against the “Christianity of Paul.”

The lingering subject surfaced again repeatedly in our last discussion about “things that last” longer than a tattoo.  Seems like we are all landing around the conclusion that whatever expresses our relationship with the eternal Son of God “will not be lost or taken away from us”. But once again we’re faced with the point of whether we need to go to the Spirit rather than the “Christianity of Paul”. Am thinking that’s the point of the following excerpt from a comment posted at July 22, 2012 at 7:43 am:

Comment excerpt “So what are 120 people doing in an upper room in Acts 1? The upper room is James Holmes’ apartment! (James was head of the church). It is tripwired, booby-trapped, a bomb factory of incendiary devices waiting to go off at the right time to disconnect Jesus from Christianity. Because the book of Acts is the bridge, and the only bridge that connects the two. Without it there would be no “Jesus Christ”. Luke turned out to be as crafty as Paul, I mean he had jars of ammo, mortars, fireworks, all requiring a detonator and an electrical source (the Holy Spirit).” End of comment excerpt

I think I understand the writer’s concern that “Christianity” is often practiced in the flesh and in a legalistic attempt to keep “laws” that none of us can keep in our own effort. We seem to land together on our conviction that it is in Jesus and in the life of his Spirit that we find hope.

But that’s what I find in Paul. Even though he seldom quotes Jesus, Paul seems focused on the Son of God while  illustrating life in the Spirit. Paul’s sacrificial love for others, together with his emphasis on the Spirit given to those who believe in Christ seems to so clearly bring forward the difference between trying to live by the “letter” rather than by the “Spirit”.

This is my reason for pursuing this: I’m convinced that Paul shows us how to living according to the spirit of the law as forgiven and empowered children of God– rather than giving us reason to separate the faith of Jesus the Messiah from all that goes back to Genesis.

Another reason for wanting to pursue this, is to try to make sure I reasonably understand the discussion that, as Steve from WVa commented, brought this blog to life :-)…

As always, I’m convinced that this group can wade into this kind of water together with a desire to lovingly understand those who have their reasons for disagreeing…


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173 Responses to “Jesus or Paul?”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    What is daylight without darkness?

    It must be remembered that it was Jesus who chose Paul, not Saul who chose Jesus.

    That is if we choose to believe Paul.

    Our friend Confeticat is so anti New Testament and outright offensive in his comments against what the most of us believe, I have a confession to make; after reading some of his comments I began to think that perhaps it was Mart in disguise trying to spice up the conversation.

    It doesn’t matter who he is, what matters is what we believe and why.

    Many times Mart has asked us to look at what he calls “tensions” in scripture. Those nagging little verses that seem to contradict each other, also the subject of why Paul doesn’t quote Jesus as well as Paul vs. Jesus have come before us many times.

    So the concept of this and confeticat’s confusion is nothing we haven’t addressed before or thought about.

    Once again it enables us to search our hearts and minds as well as our knowledge of scripture in an attempt to exercise our *faith*.

    This can be fun.

    Steve

  2. confeticat says:

    One disclaimer. Jesus the Messiah isn’t separate “from all that goes back to Genesis.” Quite the contrary, he is the theme that runs through Scripture from Genesis to Revelation (yes, even indistinctly through Paul). He is seen in the stories of the patriarchs, the design of the Tabernacle, the animal sacrifices that were a type of his sacrifice as our Savior, and on through the Psalms and prophecies of his birth and death and beyond. But he also has revealed himself in other more personal ways to God’s people so that they can really know him which is his heart’s desire. (Luke 24:25,26,27).

  3. confeticat says:

    You mentioned “go to the Spirit rather than the Christianity of Paul.” First we have to allow the Spirit to untangle himself FROM the Christianity of Paul, who usurped him in the wrong way and caused mass confusion.

  4. SFDBWV says:

    Yes Confeticat Jesus is the Christ (Messiah). (Matthew 16: 16, 17) As written in Matthew’s testimony as well as Luke’s (Luke 9: 20, 21).

    The testimonies of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are records of Jesus of Nazareth as being the promised Messiah. The Books of Matthew, Mark and Luke also give witness to the conclusion that the Gospel is to be taken into the entire world and John added that the entire world could not contain the books that *should* be written.

    The Book of Acts is the written record of the spreading of the Gospel; an unfinished book that we today to continue to add to whose record is kept in the libraries of heaven, even the Book of Life.

    Steve

  5. confeticat says:

    You’re a riot, Steve.

  6. confeticat says:

    We haven’t plumbed the depths of this theater massacre yet. Perhaps the most obvious after repentance is the title of the movie, The Dark Knight Rises and/or The Dark Night Rises (spelled both ways) in the town of Aurora, which means dawn or light. This has to do with the time we are living in, and could even be pinpointing the beginning of a certain period of time.

    Then there is the more obscure thing, the name of the theater, Century 16, known as the century of the Protestant Reformation starring Martin Luther and John Calvin which brought doctrinal separation from the Roman Catholic Church. For whatever reason, God has his finger on that spot and that obliges us to find out why. Baptists deny they are Protestants, claiming to be direct descendants of the anabaptists of the first century when the churches were still “comparatively pure”.

    But they all have failed to give credit where credit is due. Their faith came through the Catholic Church, for they would not have had the Bible, the Trinity, nor Preachers, nor “faith alone” or any of these things without the Church founded by Christ. Ingrates all, they may not even have had Seminary schools to train their Pastors, for the idea of a Seminary and Colleges came from the Catholic Church.

  7. foreverblessed says:

    Mart I like the picture you put with it.
    I have asked Confeticat this question, that he can easily see that when Jesus says in the gospels “be you perfect as I am perfect” that Jesus means that it is done in His strength, through the Spirit. But when Paul writes the same things of urging us to do our very best, to do all we can, that he also meant it to be done in His strength. As Paul lives in Christ Gal 2:20. Then Confeticat says, the Christ of Paul is a hoax, and so we are running around in circles with him.

    Any further discussion seems useless to me, as Confeticat says he is instructed by “jesus” himself (more in the same way as Paul was), and this jesus tells him that Paul used Christ is a wrong way. So whenever we citate verses of Paul with Christ in it, they are discarded as wrong. So as long as Confeticat is listening to this jesus that talks to him, we are at a dead end.

    It is quite obvious that Paul does not set aside the grace of God through Christ, Galatians 2:21
    All things that Paul tells us to diligently do, we should ask power from God in faith in Jesus, in order to perform this.

    Since this is going on here, I realise how important Ephesians 1:16-17,18-19,20-21
    It is important we pray for one another, as it is quite beyond human understanding how deep our lives in Jesus Christ can grow.

  8. Bill says:

    Mart,

    You wrote:

    * But that’s what I find in Paul. Even though he seldom quotes Jesus, Paul seems focused on the Son of God while illustrating life in the Spirit. Paul’s sacrificial love for others, together with his emphasis on the Spirit given to those who believe in Christ seems to so clearly bring forward the difference between trying to live by the “letter” rather than by the “Spirit”. *

    That’s the key to today’s Been Thinking About, as well as the key to life.

    I’ve found lately there’s a big difference between those who talk a lot about Jesus, and those who live as Jesus. Or, to put it another way, there’s a widening gap between those who like to quote scripture, give examples from parables, and proclaim the Bible to be their inerrant guide…and those who simply, quietly *live* what’s contained within the Bible’s wafer-thin pages.

    Consider Mother Teresa — a saintly woman whose focus was on love and service, rather than on doctrines and denominations. A few of her quotes point to the size of her heart:

    “I have found the paradox, that if you love until it hurts, there can be no more hurt, only more love.”

    “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.”

    “Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”

    “Let no one ever come to you without leaving better and happier. Be the living expression of God’s kindness: kindness in your face, kindness in your eyes, kindness in your smile.”

    “I’m a little pencil in the hand of a writing God, who is sending a love letter to the world.”

    I could go on and on. The woman was remarkable, and an inspiration to me even decades after she passed away.

    Here’s my point: Way too many people use Christianity and the Bible as magnifying glasses to reveal the world’s wrongs. In Sherlock Holmes fashion, Christians seem to think the game is afoot the minute their feet hit the floor in the morning.

    I can’t tell you the number of arguments/debates into which people have wanted to drag me simply because I don’t agree with every jot and tittle of their politics, or every policy espoused by their favorite politicians. One long-time friend (a woman I’ve recently been trying to help professionally) unfriended me from Facebook and then sent me angry text messages because she didn’t think I was Christian enough and was, in fact, “part of the problem” in America because I don’t agree we should be meddling in the Middle East and/or embroiling ourselves in foreign wars at the drop of a hat.

    Her actions were hurtful. But not unprecedented. It’s happened to me (and others) before. Christians today have melded their faith with their politics or their pet issues and equate them equal. They draw lines in the sand and proclaim anyone who exists outside of their ideologies are unsaved or “part of the problem.”

    I’ve never seen such a fragmented, dis-unified church. Or a people. Today, America exists split seconds away from the next road rage incident or murder. We are a people with an overwhelming knowledge of the Bible and a painful dearth of how to apply it.

    I truly don’t care what a person’s theology is. Frankly, I don’t care if he or she believes anything at all. I’m through splitting theological hairs over this doctrine or that. I’m done playing that game -which reminds me of a line from the 1980s movie War Games starring Matthew Broderick. At the end of the movie, the government’s war computer says:

    “A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?”

    That’s what life has come down to for me: not playing.

    I’ve discovered Christians such as Shane Claiborne and Rob Bell (and a host of other leaders in the so-called “emergent church” movement) who have opened my eyes to a whole new way of living the Bible:

    Silently.

    Don’t talk about it. Just do it. Live it.

    If one’s community cannot see us living the Bible without us having to say we are, we’re not doing it right.

    Service. Love and service. Unconditionally. Without strings. No leaving behind “Testamints” or Chick Tracts. No mention of church, the Bible, or God at all. Just roll-up-your-sleeves Christianity Mother Teresa style.

    So I dig Paul’s approach. He didn’t always talk about what he was doing, or what was done before him. He just did it. He got himself into a lot of trouble, too. But he lived it.

    I think when Christians today become more like Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, or the Apostle Paul — exemplifying love and compassion — we’ll have a faith people will respect and want to be part of. Until then, talk it cheap. And the world is dying.

  9. SFDBWV says:

    In truth I was prepared to ignore Confeticat and not be dragged into a circle of frustration, however since Mart has showcased his comments I am given the choice to ignore the blog or step into the arena.

    Confeticat, I am pleased that you are amused. Tell me who established the 7 churches Jesus speaks of in revelation?

    Do you agree with the Book of Revelation?

    Also what Books of the Bible do you *feel* are un-necessary or errant?

    What do you feel qualifies you to have special knowledge above the establishers of the New Testament?

    Do you really believe there is a connection between the murders in Colorado and your understanding of the movement of the Holy Spirit and the Church?

    Do you realize how insane that sounds?

    Bill I also believe in the concept that action speak louder than words. However this is a place of conversation and here in the arena of BTA all we have are typewritten words to express our thoughts and share our faith, I can tell others about my actions, but we are urged not to tell others of our good deeds to just let the deed be reward enough. So am left with either apologetics or silence; I will always stand up for the truth when challenged and what could be more of a challenge than the credibility of the entire New Testament.

    However like you Bill I tire of arguing, and there is a limit to how much time and energy I want to use up arguing for, what seems to be, the sake of arguing.

    Steve

  10. confeticat says:

    John 10:20

  11. Mart De Haan says:

    confeticat, I’d be interested to know what is it about Paul’s story or teaching that, from your own personal study, does not express the Spirit and intent of Jesus?

    We don’t need to press this beyond our mutual patience. Nor can we afford to pursue something that is merely arguable. If nothing else my concern is that we at least understand one another with mutual respect and consideration.

  12. poohpity says:

    I agree Mart, that Paul gave us plenty of ways to detect whether one is truly living a life dependent on Christ or the teaching of those who would come in a try and destroy our faith and cause disunity in the church. Paul’s letters addressed problems in the church but they also brought hope to those who were living to please the Spirit. Many problems seem to stem from people trying to add or take away from the intended purpose of the letters which Paul through Jesus forewarned would happen.

    Some have said that time spent in reading and studying the scriptures is what is causing problems but I tend to disagree. From what I have seen and read the problems come from not reading and studying which gives us a foundation on which to compare whether one is teaching truth or what Paul warned us against, apostasy, syncretism, heresy, false doctrine and false teachers. His letters also gave us wisdom as to our own spiritual condition but unless one reads the bible then most are to busy looking at the shortcomings of others to have any conviction from the Holy Spirit but are trying to be the holy spirit to others themselves.

    People who are left to following different teachers are usually those who want to be feed rather than seeking wisdom on their own directly from God, as were the all disciples and Paul. They all pointed people to God alone not to themselves for knowledge, wisdom and understanding. 1 Cor 1:11-13; 3:4-6, 22; 4:6

  13. poohpity says:

    I fully believe that reason some do not read is because they do not feel they need the knowledge or the conviction of what is written. When left to ourselves we can pull all kinds of things out of context to misapply them to our, as human beings, what would seem deranged philosophies.

  14. poohpity says:

    Bill, do you live “Service. Love and service. Unconditionally. Without strings. No leaving behind “Testamints” or Chick Tracts. No mention of church, the Bible, or God at all. Just roll-up-your-sleeves Christianity Mother Teresa style.”? Do you live out what you say and convict us of not doing? How do you know that many who acknowledge Christ do not do those things and those who do not, may in some way support those who do by prayer and finances. Each person in the body of believers have different gifts of the Spirit to use in different ways. I do not think that any of those gifts is pointing fingers at how others do not meet those standards but in fact teach us to look in the mirror and see if we ourselves are doing them.

  15. narrowpathseeker says:

    Bill, I rarely come to this site anymore because I am TRYING to live it(as you stated)and really don’t have much time for this, but tend to agree with much of what you’ve posted here today. While I am often encouraged by several that seem to have emptied themselves and write from a heart of Christlike love, those that seem to come here like Steve says(for the sake of arguing)and like you say (those who like to quote scripture, give examples from parables, and proclaim the Bible to be their inerrant guide)tend to be stumbling blocks for me. Therefore, when I do come here, I read only those posts that seem to me to be genuine, humble, and lacking in self serving interests. Thank you to all of you that post in that manner. It has been 6 months and we still have our “house guest”. He is still as unremorseful and ungrateful as day one, but the Lord has delivered me from the contempt and has used some of you to help me win this battle. Again, a belated thank you to those of you that I find uplifting in Spirit.

  16. confeticat says:

    Sorry, Mart, I left to watch the news. I’ve already answered your question, that is, if the ‘mutual patience’ here can hold up.

  17. SFDBWV says:

    After the road to Damascus encounter Paul spent the remainder of his life proclaiming Jesus of Nazareth to be the Son of God the Messiah.

    Paul never lifted up Paul and even stated that he could brag about his accomplishments, but that he was the most undeserving and miserable of sinners instead and not worthy to brag about anything except Jesus of Nazareth the Christ.

    Paul died for Christ and his work and words still encourage us all today. Paul is a disciple of Jesus; his successes are proof of who empowered him and for whose purpose he persevered.

    We all should be as dedicated to Jesus as was Paul.

    Steve

  18. confeticat says:

    Paul bragged on himself a lot (Phil. 3:3,4,5,6.) But that in itself does not make him a fraud. What makes him a fraud is that Jesus Christ is not Jesus of Nazareth. I’m pretty sure I’ve explained that before. Christ is a fictional character invented by the Church, and inserted in places he should not be, replacing the Messiah.

    Is Bill still with us? I have a question for him.

  19. SFDBWV says:

    Confeticat, where in scripture do you find your information? You have explained nothing other than your rambling of which makes no sense at all.

    Steve

  20. kingdomkid7 says:

    My question is for you, confeticat. To what were you referring in your 6:48 a.m. post when you mentioned “the Church founded by Christ”?

  21. poohpity says:

    Paul as all of us should realize that the most important thing about a servant is that we do the will of the Master. Have we been a good servant? Well I wonder if we really should waste time wondering what others think about us or this and that or even trusting our own judgment at this point. Is our conscience clear and that may not even be the final proof. It is the Lord Himself who must examine each of us and decide. So be very careful not to jump to conclusions before the Lord returns as to whether someone is a good servant or not. When the Lord comes, He will turn on the light so that everyone can see exactly what each one of us is really like, down deep in our hearts. Then everyone will know why we have been doing the Lord’s work. At that time God will give to each one whatever praise is coming to him. That comes from the heart of one who truly followed the Master and realized that every gift we have comes from God to do his work as if we have done anything on our own to benefit God’s Kingdom. Paraphrase of Paul as he counsels believers.

  22. poohpity says:

    confeticat it would be wise to continue reading the Phil verses you sited rather than just taking things out of context to prove your point. Phil 3:7,8,9,10,11 goes on to explain what Paul believes.

  23. Bill says:

    @Confeticat, sure I’m still here. But not poised on the keyboard waiting for posts. They come into my iPhone when I’m out and about. Right now, I’m sitting in front of my laptop. Ask away.

    @poohpity, in no way, shape, or form do I live up to Mother Teresa standards. I’m not even up to Dalai Lama standards. And I’m certainly not up to Apostle Paul standards. But I recognize Christianity-as-lived when I see it. And I strive to be that way.

    I don’t recall saying anything to criticize anyone here. On the contrary, I enjoy these posts and this blog a great deal. I always find something worthwhile in them.

    Each person has his or her own path to walk. I can’t tell you how to walk yours. I only know how to walk mine. That, alone, keeps me very busy.

    @narrowpathseeker, thank you.

    The only way to read any blog post is through the filter of one’s own understanding and experience. Nobody here — including me — can tell you how to live your Christian life. That’s between you and God.

    A wonderful book I wholeheartedly recommend is Francis Schaeffer’s The Mark of the Christian. It’s the most inspiring little volume I’ve ever read. Sobering, too.

    For me, love is the key to the Bible. That’s the plumb line that runs from start to finish.

  24. poohpity says:

    Solomon put it aptly in Proverbs 26:4,5!

  25. SFDBWV says:

    Confeticat as I said to you concerning my first remarks concerning your remarks; something or someone has poisoned your mind and soul, for this I am very sorry for you and as it is my Christian duty to pray for you. This I will do.

    However as for commenting to your *Alice in Wonderland* dialog I choose to not to and have only out of respect for Mart and his attempt to give you an opportunity to lay out your doctrinal foundation; something you run from.

    Narrowpathseeker hang in there our suffering is for His greater glory.

    Steve

  26. confeticat says:

    Steve, all you will find in scripture is places the name Christ was inserted where it should not be – Matt. 16:16, John 1:41, John 4:25, actually, all through the Gospels. There were no Christians at that time. In every one of those places, the word should be Messiah. Salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22).

    KK – The Church founded by Christ is the Catholic Church. And what I wanted to ask Bill was, do you think quoting Mother Teresa covers your debt to the Catholic Church?

    Pooh – You are right on target when you said to be careful not to jump to conclusions about whether someone is a good servant or not. Paul was probably doing exactly as God wanted him to do. God is not in a box – he can do as he pleases.

  27. confeticat says:

    How did we get in Alice in Wonderland, Steve? I have seen a cheshire cat grinning at me. Who is the Mad Hatter?

  28. kingdomkid7 says:

    I don’t think you really answered my question, confeticat, but I will assume the mistake is mine in the way I framed it. Who are you saying the “Christ ” you speak of is? Is it Jesus, the Christ?
    This is my final question on the topic, as I sincerely do not want to be involved in any foolish disputings. I just don’t understand how you are using the name of Christ.

  29. confeticat says:

    Apparently you didn’t read my comments thoroughly. Christ, or Jesus Christ as you put it, founded the Catholic Church. Ask any Catholic, they will tell you. This is not Jesus of Nazareth I’m talking about.

  30. Mart De Haan says:

    Seems to me that we don’t need to press the issue of words here:

    If Christ is the Greek word for Messiah, as the Greek New Testament text explains, then the two refer to the same meaning.

    And I assumed we would be on the same page seeing that the catholic church of the creed is not a reference to the Rome-based branch of Christendom but rather of the “whole” or “global” Body of God’s Messiah/Christ.

  31. poohpity says:

    But Bill thinking that Christians should behave as the Dalai Lama that only seeks nirvana who lives pretty much closed off from regular life to be one of our examples confuses me. He must continue his process of seeking after many passes through this life, perfection. That seems rather pointless although his kindness is beautiful but his purpose seems futile. We have a beautiful example to follow and emulate who died once for us to live throughout eternity. It is finished and who believes in the incarnate God in the person of Jesus Christ rather than continual reincarnation. To many ideologies serve only to confuse man’s innate desire for a relationship with God and others. Jesus did not live on a mountain separated from us sinners but in fact ate with us and lives among those who want to be with Him.

    If love is the key to the Bible then why push someone to read another book when we have the bible which is what has lead to much confusion to those who have strayed away from it. Not because they have read it to much but in fact not enough. You may do some research on the bible illiteracy today.

  32. poohpity says:

    Bill, have you read the bible? Not just parts but the whole?

  33. confeticat says:

    Mart, I mean the Roman Catholic Church. I never refer to God’s children as the Church. I never refer to them as the Body either. All of you, Catholics and non, refer to yourselves as the body of Christ. Grotesque.

  34. kingdomkid7 says:

    I am done. It’s all a word game with confeticat. Either that, or confeticat is simply preaching “another gospel,” which i simply must reject.

  35. confeticat says:

    If it’s a word game, it’s one Jesus didn’t play. Paul came up with the body. Jesus never mentioned such a thing. Let’s establish that. At the Passover Jesus spoke of his body, broken for us. He never called us his body. If anyone believes he did, let them produce a reference now.

  36. poohpity says:

    lol confeticat, it may seem grotesque if one does not understand how the physical body works, each part is beautifully woven together to function as a whole. Glance at an anatomy chart and look at all the inner workings under the skin it is wonderfully intricate and functions by everything working together. There are many examples of what happens when one of the bodily functions are broke, it throws off the whole body. It is not a building that is the church or a denomination it is a group of dysfunctional people trying to do their best to serve God.

  37. kingdomkid7 says:

    On reflection, confeticat, I think you’re preaching “another Jesus,” and “another gospel.”2 Corinthians 11:3-4; Galatians 1:6-9. As I told you on the Giving Facts a Chance board, you really need to be careful.

  38. confeticat says:

    Pooh has defined it well. That’s exactly what the body of Christ is – a group of dysfunctional people trying to do their best to serve God.

  39. confeticat says:

    Luke 11:18.

  40. poohpity says:

    I think where confeticat is coming from is the red letters in the bible compared to the black. Upon careful examination after Jesus rose and went to heaven he left a group of people who were with Him to record what happened when He was here(red) and then what it looks like to follow Jesus after(black). Many will find after careful reading that it all comes together to form a whole. There are many of us that have grabbed hold of misunderstandings and have inserted our own reasoning behind many scriptures to come up with some really different ideas. I feel really confident that if we all are truly seeking the truth that the Lord will reveal it to us in His time in His way when we are able to receive those truths.

  41. poohpity says:

    confeticat do you even know what that Luke passage means and why it is in the place it sits in the bible? Or as usual you have pulled it out to toss around like you understand what it means.

  42. confeticat says:

    I don’t know everything it means but when Jesus was accused of getting his power from Satan, that’s what he said. And he said in the verse before it, Luke 11:17, that a house divided against itself falls. Jesus said nothing about us being his body, Paul made a big deal out of it from the Church to gifts to the cemetery and even to heaven. Now if that isn’t a house divided I don’t know what is. I think Paul was insecure about what he believed, so he put in those verses KK7 quoted. They’re like Dobermans guarding his house to keep anyone who would challenge him out.

  43. kingdomkid7 says:

    What scriptures support your theory that Paul was insecure about what he believed? Perhaps you are projecting a bit there? There is a world of difference between admitting that you are weak and can do nothing on your own, excerpt as Jesus sustains you — which Paul does — and being unsure of what you actually do believe. Paul says he KNOWS who he has believed. 2 Timothy 1:12 (emphasis added).

  44. confeticat says:

    Funny, I thought of that verse when I said that. I think he knew WHO he had believed, but was insecure about WHAT he was preaching, because he knew much of it was not true. He got it in the third heaven, which you can believe or not (II Cor. 12:2,3,4). I kinda think he got it somewhere else, but I don’t know. In the next chapter in Galatians he even sicced one of his Dobermans on Peter.

  45. billystan121 says:

    “As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit-just as you were called to one hope when you were called-one Lord, one baptism, one faith, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph. 4:1-6, NIV)
    Confeticat your not really trying to tell us that according to your studies; the Bible speaks of the true Jesus and a false Jesus are you? Because if you are, you’re being completely ludicrous. Paul for one thing was just a man, but he was a man with great faith. I think what you are calling bragging is really Paul’s way of preparing those who would come after him, prepare them for the trials and tribulations that were to come their way.
    What you are calling the false Christ, please show me where in the Bible you are getting your information. What you claim to be Biblical truth seems to have some holes in it. I ask this of you not as a challenge, but in hope that you will see that by continuing to say that the Bible not only teaches the one true Christ but another false Christ as well, could be very misleading to someone new to the faith. “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them everything I have commanded you And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. (Matt. 28:18-20 NIV) If we are falsely teaching, the word of God will eventually be swept under the rug.

  46. poohpity says:

    confeticat, in the Luke passage Jesus was answering to the thoughts of the people that were accusing that Jesus was from satan that was how He could cast out demons. Jesus taught them that if He was in fact from satan then how could his kingdom survive if it was fighting against itself. Satan would be causing harm to his own if he cast them out. Jesus was not from satan and therefore could cast out demons because He was from God. Jesus was trying to show them how silly their thoughts were. I am just wondering why you threw that verse after talking about how imperfect God’s children are?

    I think that was the first honest thing we have heard from you when you said, “I don’t know everything” so could it be that the other thoughts or opinions offered could be from a lack of knowledge as well?

  47. confeticat says:

    Well, Billystan, one thing I don’t have is a circular argument as you gave, that is, using a quote from the person in question to prove my point.

    No, I’m not talking about a true and a false Jesus. There is one Jesus, and he is true. If the information were spelled out in the Bible, it would have been discovered before now, don’t you think? There is no true Christ. There is no Christ period, he is a figment of the Church’s imagination. As James the theater killer said, a “temporal illusion”.

  48. Mart De Haan says:

    Let’s review some of what the New Testament tells us about Paul.

    1. The first Christians were rightly suspicious of Paul because of vicious ways in which he had persecuted them.

    2. After Paul’s dramatic change of heart, he was eventually called before the first Apostles in Jerusalem (Acts 9:26-30). They listened to his story and then endorsed him. Later, Paul again appeared before the Apostles in Jerusalem to answer questions about his mission to non-jewish people. Once again, they were satisfied that he was not only telling the truth but also acting in the Spirit of Christ.

    3. The rest of Paul’s life was given not only to telling the story of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection, but he himself suffered inexpressible suffering for his self-sacrifice (2Cor 4:8-18; 2Cor 11:22-28).

    4. Like Jesus, Paul was known for doing dramatic miracles of healing which added to his credibility.

    5. His mission to both Jews and Gentiles is rooted in the Old Testament going back to God’s promises to Abraham (Gen 12:1-3); Jonah; and to the Great Commission of Jesus.

    6. The measure of Paul’s credibility lies in the many ways his teaching and actions line up with the Scriptures that preceded him.

    7. Paul supported himself as a tentmaker rather than giving critics evidence to believe that he was in the ministry for the money.

  49. confeticat says:

    I beg to differ on point #6. The Scriptures that preceded him are the Gospels. He doesn’t line up. After the book of Acts, he stopped preaching the Kingdom of God. The gospel Jesus preached was “the gospel of the Kingdom of God” (Luke 16:16).

  50. confeticat says:

    Paul had his own gospel, which he called MY gospel (Rom. 2:16; II Tim. 2:8; I Cor. 15:3,4).

  51. phpatato says:

    ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness – 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV

    What is meant by “inspiration” of God…”The word inspiration is used in 2 Timothy 3:16 to translate qeopneustos, a word that occurs only here. Qeopneustos is derived from qeos, “God,” and pnew, “to breath.” Literally, it means “God-breathed” and expresses the concept of exhalation by God. More accurately, it emphasizes that Scripture is the product of the breath of God. The Scriptures are not something breathed into by God, rather, the Scriptures have been breathed out by God.

    The following represent a few of the definitions of prominent evangelical theologians:

    Benjamin B. Warfield: “Inspiration is, therefore, usually defined as a supernatural influence exerted on the sacred writers by the Spirit of God, by virtue of which their writings are given Divine trustworthiness.

    Edward J. Young: “Inspiration is a superintendence of God the Holy Spirit over the writers of the Scriptures, as a result of which these Scriptures possess Divine authority and trustworthiness and, possessing such Divine authority and trustworthiness, are free from error.”

    Charles C. Ryrie: “God superintended the human authors of the Bible so that they composed and recorded without error His message to mankind in the words of their original writings.”…

    taken from Bible dot org

    Do I have to breakdown the word Scripture or is it safe to assume that we can agree that Scripture and The Holy Bible are one and the same.

    Confeticat…the Bible is God-inspired. ALLLL of it, starting with Genesis 1:1 and ending at Revelation 22:21. ALL OF IT! 2 Peter 1:21-22

    I question why it is that you openly disregard some parts of the Bible as garbage, such as The Gospels and especially anything in regard to Paul and yet you confidently quote Scripture to back up your comments with other parts. How is it that you are blind to the fact that you come off as a hypocrite. My dear, you cannot pick and choose which parts you like and want to believe and which parts you don’t. If you believe that God inspired Moses, Daniel and David, you have to believe He inspired Paul and Luke and John. There is No standing in the middle. You are either in or out. It’s totally and completely God’s Word, or it isn’t.

    ….simply put…the leg you’re standing on is weak. I doubt you are winning over any converts here. On the other hand, I also doubt that you are being won over either. So as it was before….enough said.

    Narrow and so Bill, quoting a familiar saying…I understand your pain.

  52. royalpalm says:

    Confeticat, after your series of posts, I also find it hard to find a common ground with you rearding spiritual matters; you are in a different sphere. You deny the authority of the Scriptures by claiming to have personal
    revelations from “jesus” which contradict what the word of God says. Among these is your assertion that “There is
    no true Christ. There is no Christ period, he is a figment of the Church’s imagination.”(Jul. 23, 8:02 p.m. post)

    The reason we need to know the Bible is stated in John 20:31, “But these are written that you may believe that
    Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.” All your “bible” knowledge is of no value if it has not led you to believe in “Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Eternal life is knowing the true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.(John 17:3) How can you know Jesus Christ if you do not believe in Him? Christianity is not a religion, but a personal relationship with God, through Jesus Christ, who is the only mediator between God and man. 1 Tim. 2:5

    In John 7:39 Jesus said that everyone who believes in Him will receive the Holy Spirit and in the book of Daniel we
    know that ONLY those who have the Spirit of the Holy God can interpret and understand God’s revelations.(Dan.
    4:18). People may claim to have “bible” knowledge and may memorize, quote, or even teach them, but unless they
    have the Spirit of the Holy God, their words cannot explain the truth. In fact, their “bible knowledge” may just be “profane, idle babblings, and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge…” according to Paul in 1 Tim. 6:20, 21 and, as he advised Timothy, those who know the Lord must avoid getting involved in this past time for it can lead them astray.

  53. foreverblessed says:

    Narrow, thanks for the update, that God freed you from conempt, What a miracle, how great is our God. Who works wonders for us. Things we can’t do ourselves, freeing from the evil powers that want to hold us captive, and in fear. GOd is our Judge, our Helper, our Provider, our Husband. His life flows through us through faith in His Son, and we live in it, happily and joyfully even in grimm circumstances, because of His love for us What a joy you are to HIm and to us!
    He is the Vine, we are the branches. That to me is the same type Jesus used as Paul later did with, He is the Head, we are the body.
    Bill, (that you could get that blogname after all these years, no one else with just Bill?), welcome. And to follow your advice: I quit typing for this moment and go out to visit some lonely people in old peoples homes.

  54. Mart De Haan says:

    Confeticat, my reason for wanting for us to keep listening and talking is that over time I have heard a lot of truth in your comments. I agree that Francis Schaeffer’s The Mark of a Christian is a great book. And I resonate so deeply with your discovery that only by the empowering of the Spirit can we live the life Jesus called us to.

    So let’s keep talking. In response to your last two comments about Paul’s Gospel and Jesus’ kingdom, here’s my take…

    Jesus taught that he built on and brought fulness of meaning to Moses and the prophets. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and the author of Hebrews built on the foundation of Moses, the prophets, and God’s ultimate revelation in Jesus (Heb 1:1-3).

    The good news/gospel of God that consumed Paul celebrated the meaning of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus in our behalf. As Paul explained to the Romans, it is consistent with the good news that Abraham was justified by faith when he believed God; and with Jesus’ many promises to save those (poor in spirit) who believed in him.

    The history of Acts covers the time period of Paul’s travels and teachings. So that when author Luke ends it saying that “Paul lived two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him” (Acts 28:30-31)– Luke is actually emphasizing Paul’s emphasis on the Kingdom of God at the end of his ministry. Paul refers to both the present and future kingdom of God in his letters (i.e. Col 1:13; Col 4:11; 1Thess 2:12).

    The kingdom of God, as described in the Bible, has many dimensions. It includes national sphere’s of rule; the sphere of God’s rule over the kingdom of our hearts, and his present and ultimate rule over the earth. In this sense we can say that Jesus talked about a kingdom that is already a reality but not yet in its complete and fulfilled state.

  55. SFDBWV says:

    There is a TV commercial for hot dogs that is worthy of a smile and acknowledgement of mutual understanding.

    The fellow cooking the hot dogs is 99.999% certain of a matter; his antagonist simply replies “hey if you don’t know you don’t know.”

    If we want to discuss Paul’s ministry I am all for it; if we need an antagonist who is able to present an argument from scripture it could be very enlightening and productive.

    However if our antagonist is incapable of understanding it in order to present an opposing view and only presents an opposition to further an argument without base we are at an impasse and frustrated.

    Mart you have laid out a nice overview of the New Testament. Our base of our faith lay in Jesus of Nazareth being the man whom was crucified died and by His own power rose from the grave. His genetic linage, birth, life and death all recorded as being the same man.

    If our antagonist will not accept that nor the record of Scripture as it is written or present his own base for his comments then I see no purpose in continuing a conversation with him that appears to only give him attention and an audience.

    Steve

  56. tracey5tgbtg says:

    I thought it was Bill who recommended Francis Schaeffer’s The Mark of a Christian. Maybe you were just recommending it also, Mart, but it read like you were agreeing with confeticat.

    There is always an element of truth in lies because lies are truth that has been distorted.

  57. Bill says:

    @foreverblessed, just lucky I guess. I figured all of the really cool blog nicks were taken. So I thought I’d be me: “Bill.”

    To use the parlance of my British mates, I’m chuffed that you thought it beneficial to lay aside scripture battling and just live the Gospel by visiting some lonely people.

    That reminds me of one of my favorite Beatles songs, “Eleanor Rigby”:

    “All the lonely people
    Where do they all come from?
    All the lonely people
    Where do they all belong?

    Ah, look at all the lonely people
    Ah, look at all the lonely people

    Eleanor Rigby, died in the church
    and was buried along with her name
    Nobody came

    Father McKenzie, wiping the dirt
    from his hands as he walks from the grave
    No one was saved”

    Loneliness is a terrible thing. And it can so easily be wiped away with a smile, a phone call, or a visit.

    Now, before anyone jumps all over me for quoting the Beatles, I think there’s an important point to be made: “No one was saved.”

    I’d hate to come to the end of my life and realize I spent so much time arguing the finer points of scripture that I never actually got out into the world to love people into the kingdom.

    I have in-laws who are incredibly, profoundly narrow minded when it comes to the Bible, salvation, and how to live one’s Christian life. Anyone who disagrees with them is, surely, hell bound. And don’t even bring up the subject of gays around them. They make it a point to avoid gay people, calling them “evil.” They have no gay friends and don’t intend to make any.

    In short, to return to the point of Mart’s excellent post, “Jesus or Paul?” or the Spirit versus the letter, I’ve seen a sharp rise in legalism in the church today. I think it’s born from fear of the world coming apart at the seams all around us. People see everything unraveling and they fixate their minds on narrow interpretations and cloistered living. They, in effect, circle the wagons.

    However, that kind of either/or ideology (“Jesus or Paul?”) only separates and alienates. It takes us out of the world, puts up barriers, classifies people — even brothers and sisters in the Lord — as “sinners” and “saved” merely based on what they say, which authors they quote, with whom they associate. When we see people as either/or, or seek to avoid those whom we think are “evil” we can easily overlook loving them as Jesus loved us — totally, to the point of death.

    When we get to heaven, I don’t think God is going to award us gold stars for being able to quote scripture at the drop of a hat…or to win debates using scripture. I think he’s going to ask us, “Did you befriend the Eleanor Rigbys of the world? Did you visit the lonely people in homes? Did you hold that door open for the old man at Panera? Did you pull your car over when you saw the woman and her boyfriend pushing their stalled car off the busy road? Did you embrace gay people — or did you shun them as evil?”

    Either/or situations are a trap. They force a choice where none should be made. They’re like the question, “So, are you still beating your wife?” There’s no way to answer such a question without admitting guilt.

    So, the simple answer to Mart’s initial question (“Jesus or Paul?”) is “Yes.”

    No choice can be made because no choice is possible.

    Christians could take a lesson from those who practice Zen. Students of Zen are given koans to test their ability to avoid either/or traps. The key to answering koans is to not answer them. Because the minute you do, you’ve fallen into the trap; you’ve, in effect, bought the initial premise.

    The result? For us, endless debates, discussions of finer points, this passage versus that one, this theological interpretation versus that one…and ever-increasing frustration because some don’t “get it.”

    That’s why I often return to the line from the movie War Games: “The only winning move is not to play.”

    I find that often comes in handy these days.

    Reading all of these comments has been interesting.

    They bring to mind one my favorite scriptures, which is Proverbs 15:1: “A soft answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.” (NKJV)

    I’ve proved that in my own life many times. Whenever I’ve responded with a harsh word, I’ve regretted it.

    @pooh, to address something you wrote yesterday, I don’t recommend anyone follow the Dalai Lama. I used his example of love and compassion in the same way I used Mother Teresa’s in my initial post. He is a well-known leader in the world, with the same spirit of compassion what was embodied in the lives of MLK, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and others who have set aside theological divides to simply reach out to others with a helping hand. If I eschewed every non Christian simply because of his or her beliefs I’d have to stop heeding the advice of my mechanic, my dentist, or the gal who hands me my bagel in the morning. People are people. Wisdom can come from anyone, at any time.

    @confeticat, do you live in the Grand Rapids, Michigan, area? If so, I’d like to buy you a cup of coffee. I’m sure there’s much I could learn from your perspective.

    Thanks to all who’ve taken the time to wade through my posts. I apologize for their length. I look forward to Mart’s blog entries like I do my cup of Light Roast. Both warm me and get my day off to a wonderful start.

    Bill

  58. SFDBWV says:

    As I am often guilty of I wanted to stray from the subject for just a moment.
    I was very pleased to read this morning that the NCAA brought brutal action against Penn State for placing winning football games over the education, nourishment and protection of young people.

    Tracey thank you for the comment about lies, I was going to say something like that, but had already said enough.

    Steve

  59. cherielyn says:

    Amen, Steve! If a neighbor of mine, who I have been witnessing to for two years, were to read this blog, especially the comments of one of the posters, I am positive that she would be so confused that she would no longer be willing to listen to anything else I have to share. She is coming around slowly, but has shared that she has much doubt and confusion. Those particular posts would only push her back to where she was before I started sharing with her.

    Proverbs 12:23; Proverbs 14:24; Proverbs 15:2, 14; Proverbs 19:3, 5; Proverbs 22:15; Proverbs 24:9; Proverbs 27:22; Ecclesiates 10:13, 14 & 15a; Mark 7:22; I Corinthians 2:14

  60. SFDBWV says:

    Goodmorning cherielyn I am glad to see and that you are right there on top of things.

    I pray that you are blessed today.

    Matthew had a big victory this month when he learned he had lost 14.8 pounds after dieting and exercising and praying for results. A combination that always works; faith and action.

    Steve

  61. cherielyn says:

    Steve,
    My Amen was to your July 24, 6:20 a.m. post. By the time I posted there were several more posts and another by you.

    Correction: Ecclesiates 10:13,14,15a

  62. confeticat says:

    I’m glad you want to continue talking, Mart. So do I. Part of our problem today is we’re so busy we don’t want to take the time to read something through so we skim it and form half-baked conclusions. I will try to answer these last statements/charges thoughtfully.

    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” is another circular argument. You can’t use a quote from the book in question to prove your case, you have to use outside sources. I know that is not easy for bibliophiles. When the Lord first showed me these things, my first reaction was “get those books out of the Bible!” But now I believe he led the Catholic Church to include them, for they serve his purpose. Jesus said “Follow me”. God said he would test us, he gave us Paul’s letters to test that and (predictably) most everybody ran after Paul. Paul does show the way of salvation, but he also appeals to our flesh and our pride. It’s like a church I visited once. I was late and there was no one outside, but on the front steps was this beautiful blue peacock, with his feathers all fanned out glistening in the sun. I didn’t know if he was going to let me in or not.

    There are God’s children who throughout church history secretly overcame Paul and pressed on into the Kingdom to know Jesus. Some may not have even have realized they were overcoming Paul – I didn’t. Jesus said that finding that narrow way would not be easy (Luke 16:16). Unlike salvation, Jesus will not let anyone in who he knows will turn back.

    There is nothing strange about revelation from Jesus. The patriarchs heard God in an audible voice. If you ask Jesus to speak to you, he will. But then you are responsible for what he tells you. And until you do the thing he tells you, he won’t say another word. You hear all the time, “Christianity is not a religion, it’s a relationship.” Christianity is a religion. If you have a relationship, it’s not Christianity.

    The head and the body hanging on the vine and branches somehow reminds me of Judas. We will get to that later.

    Someone else read the book by Francis Schaeffer, but I’ve read the one by his son Frank called “Sex, Mom and God’ which I found fascinating and would like to read others by him.

    The dimension of the Kingdom of God I’m talking about is within, it doesn’t come with observation. Paul dropped the word but he didn’t preach it.

    One thing Jesus told me is that I live in Paul’s house, a 3-building apt. complex (Acts 28:15). God has a sense of humor, you know, and Jesus has it in spades.

    Steve, I have never questioned what you say about Jesus of Nazareth and you are helping my case. To go with your hot dog commercial I have a beer commercial. One guy said “tastes great” and the other countered, “less filling”. Every time I try to quit somebody hands me another beer. I haven’t even had breakfast yet!

  63. Bill says:

    @confeticat, do you live in the Grand Rapids, Michigan, area? If so, do you have time for coffee one of these days?

    Frank Schaffer is a very bitter, angry man. I used to know him back when he was referred to as Franky. I interviewed him a time or two, and was a huge fan of his movies (“How Then Should We Live?” and “Whatever Happened to the Human Race?”). I also saw him speak once or twice at pro-life rallies.

    After his father died, Frank became very angry, palpably bitter, and remarkably liberal in his politics. Now, he spends a great deal of his time denouncing Christianity, the Bible, and the legacy of his parents, Francis and Edith.

    You may wish to read his book “Crazy For God” if you want to know what he thinks about his parents. In my opinion, he’s a few apples short of a bushel. I think his disrespect for his parents and what they accomplished is nothing short of shameful.

    I’ve corresponded with Frank a few times since he denounced his parents and turned his back on what he calls the “right-wing” Christian church. I’ve offered to debate him in an interview (especially regarding his devotion to Barack Obama). At first, he was willing. But then, he disappeared. I haven’t heard from him in a couple of years.

    So read Frank Schaffer. But know that his most recent books are born from deep bitterness and anger. I’d recommend keeping that in mind.

    I prefer his earliest books:

    Addicted to Mediocrity
    A Time For Anger
    Band News For Modern Man

    His dad — the late Dr. Francis A. Schaffer — was a brilliant theologian and astute observer of the human race…especially the decline of Western civilization. If you’re a thinking man (as you appear to be) I’d suggest these Francis Schaeffer titles:

    The God Who is There
    True Spirituality
    The Mark of the Christian
    Whatever Happened to the Human Race?
    A Christian Manifesto
    The Great Evangelical Disaster

    I was fortunate to have seen Dr. Schaffer at a L’Abri conference a month or so before he died back in the early 1980s. It was a tremendously moving experience. He was dying of cancer, and quite weak. But he spoke, in tears, and the audience prayed for him. Not long thereafter, he died.

    Anyway, please take Frank Schaffer in small doses. He’s frightfully angry at the world, and his writing reflects that. His recollections and observations are colored by his mental/emotional state. You may find Francis Schaffer’s books more intellectually stimulating.

  64. cherielyn says:

    Attempted to correct my error and still got it wrong. Then realized I spelled Ecclesiastes wrong.

    One more attempt! Correction: Ecclesiastes 10:13,14,15a

  65. confeticat says:

    Bill, I’m sorry I don’t live in the Grand Rapids area so i could have a cup of coffee with you. My parents lived in Kalamazoo though.

    God can sometimes use an angry, bitter man (I Sam. 16:7). Frank has reason to be angry with what his parents put him through. And since his parents were almost worshipped by Christianity, God has to bring the statue down (Isa. 40:3,4,5). His parents accomplished little if anything of eternal value in their lifetime.

    I don’t follow any man, and I don’t read the few books I do read to be intellectually stimulated. I just like to know how Jesus works in the lives of others. It is interesting that you know Frank, and yet I wonder if you really know him. Why do his politics have anything to do with it? Do you think a liberal can’t know Jesus? Jesus was a liberal! he cared for the poor and downtrodden. He came into jerusalem the first time on a donkey and he may be coming to you again on a donkey. And you would miss him, because you’re stuck in your right-wing trap.

  66. Bill says:

    Hi confeticat,

    I’ve been quoting the Dalai Lama, Mother Teresa, and I’ve referenced MLK. I’m hardly caught in any right-wing trap. I don’t embrace either side of the political equation. Both are wrong as much as both are right.

    I’ve followed the ministries of Francis, Edith, and Franky since the late 1970s. I think I know them as well as anyone does who doesn’t actually live with them.

    My point with Frank is that I don’t think his parents “put him through” anything. He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, encouraged to become a filmmaker and an artist, given the most liberal education any person could ever have, and afforded a great deal of respect. Somewhere along the way he changed course.

    Anger and bitterness are not part of the Gospel and, in fact, are eschewed by it.

    His politics are an apparent outgrowth of his anger and bitterness. He could be a raving right-wing nut bag for all I care. His politics aren’t the issue. His anger, bitterness, and historical revisionism are the issue for me. I don’t think anyone who grew up with Frank — especially the L’Abri crowd — agrees with him. They don’t see the past as he does.

    It’s not fair to say his parents accomplished little if anything of eternal value in their lifetime. You and I don’t know what they accomplished, let alone of “eternal value.” All I know is their L’Abri ministry has helped thousands around the world answer questions honestly and openly. The L’Abri ministry is beyond reproach from what I can see.

    Granted, I don’t know everything. In fact, I know very little.

    But I’m open to Jesus on a donkey. In fact, I’d be happy to feed His donkey and provide it with a place in a nearby stable.

    Caring for the poor and downtrodden are what Christians are called to do, which is why I quoted Mother Teresa. That was her entire life.

    I’m sometimes in K’zoo. I’d be happy to meet up with you somewhere for a cup of Joe. Are you saying you don’t live anywhere nearby? Or that you live with your parents in K’zoo?

    I like how you think. You challenge everyone to set aside their preconceived notions. That’s a good thing. Complacency can result in missing opportunities to serve.

    Thanks for being here!

    Bill

  67. phpatato says:

    As a side note:

    @ Bill

    I think I know your last name. Maybe…… You have me wondering. lol You are very well spoken and although I know you are leagues ahead of me, I want to say “Thanks for being here!” I enjoy what you have to say. You speak simple…Love your neighbours as yourself.

  68. confeticat says:

    Bill,I’m not in Kalamazoo either. How did I get the idea that you’re a right-winger?

    I’ve never met any of the Schaeffers, only Frank in his book, but I would have to say that what his mother, in particular, put him through, was cruel and unusual punishment and hardly fit their public image. But it turns out that may have been her greatest ministry and lasting achievement. Anger and bitterness are not part of the gospel but as I said, something else is being accomplished here.

    I just read the story of Petra Anderson, 22, a survivor of the Aurora shootings. She was shot 4 times. One shot went through her nose, riding up the back of her cranium and hitting the back of her skull. Her injuries were severe, and doctors prior to surgery were concerned because so much of her brain had been traversed by the bullet. her pastor, Brad Strait, added that the doctors were worried that her injuries could impair her speech, motor and cognitive abilities.

    But incredibly, during the five-hour surgery, doctors found that Anderson’s brain sustained very little damage and the bullet was removed cleanly. Anderson was saved by a miracle birth ‘defect’ that no one could have anticipated. There was a tiny channel of fluid running through her skull…only a CAT scan would catch it, and Petra would have never noticed it.

    But in Petra’s case, the shotgun buckshot entered her brain from the exact point of this defect. Like a marble through a small tube, the defect channeled the bullet from Petra’s nose through her brain. It turned slightly several times, and came to rest at the rear of her brain. And in the process, the bullet missed all the vital areas of the brain.

    She has already started to speak and walk again and expected to make a full recovery. Luke 17:33

  69. SFDBWV says:

    The world was promised a redeemer at the encounter between God, Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:15).

    The last Prophet of God, John the Baptist, as well as all the Prophets, announced the coming of the promised one the Messiah (Matthew 3: 11).

    Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1), but because an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and instructed him (Matthew 2: 19, 20), Joseph moved his family to Nazareth (Matthew 2: 23).

    The testimony of Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 2: 13, 14, 15, 16, 17) is the first of many supernatural events that will demonstrate to a cynical public the authority of this man, Jesus of Nazareth.

    The name we all are familiar with is a Greek name, whereas the Hebrew name for Jesus is Jehoshua (yeh-ho-shoo’-ah), sometimes referred to as Joshua and has a meaning of Jehovah-saved.

    In Matthew 1: 21 we read of the angel of the Lord instructing Joseph to name the Son of Mary Jesus or for the Hebrew tongue Jehoshua.

    Hebrew people did not have a last name until only within the past 100 years.

    When speaking the name of Jesus added to it is the *title* Messiah/Christ as in Jesus the Christ or Jehoshua Mashiyach (yeh-ho-shoo’-ah maw-shee-akh).

    In the Book of John Jesus gives instruction to use His name (John 14: 13, 14) (John 16: 24)

    In the Book of Acts we read of Peter and John healing a lame man using the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth (Acts 3: 6, 7, 8).

    What then is a name? It is a representation of who you are and who you are is your reputation.

    Who is Jesus of Nazareth reputed to be; the Messiah/Christ!

    In 1 Corinthians 1: 2 Paul greets everyone in whose name; Jesus’. In Romans in 2 Corinthians, in Galatians, in Ephesians, in Philippians, in Colossians, in 1 Thessalonians, in 2 Thessalonians, in 1 Timothy, in 2 Timothy, in Titus, and in Philemon Paul acknowledges to every reader in whose name he comes.

    I am way late and out of time, I hope I have been some help to someone.

    confeticat I think you should take Bill’s invitation and meet with him. I am sure Mart can arrange for he and you to get together via email.

    Steve

  70. billystan121 says:

    The throwing around of Paul’s name is what I would like to address. I believe the way in which we are presented with the unerring and meticulous use of historical facts the Bible presents us with is totally undeniable. History is God’s story it is His story. Confeticat, I’m truly sorry that you don’t believe in history. Paul was completely changed on the Damascus road.
    It very definitely possible for a person to do a “180”, as some refer to it today. I attest to this because twenty plus years ago I was living under a bridge and hopelessly alcoholic. God came into my life and today I’m a sober God fearing child of God. If you want to change the validity of Paul’s story, you need to talk to your pastor and ask him to help you learn Paul’s story.
    I appreciate Matt’s comment at 9:15 last night. There is a heap of truth in the reply. If we are DAILY studying scripture we are not going to question God’s word. If you question the validity of parts of scripture, you are in effect questioning the whole Bible’s validity.
    Call me Billystan.

  71. confeticat says:

    Steve – Isn’t that what we’re doing now, meeting together? (Luke 11:33)

    Jesus was prophesied as the promised Redeemer in other places, but Gen. 3:15 is speaking of Eve, not Mary (Gen. 3, 12,13).

    I didn’t know that Hebrew people didn’t have a last name until about 100 years ago, but Jesus didn’t and still doesn’t need one. Christ is a title, but Christians use it as a name. The angel told Mary to call his name Jesus, meaning salvation.

    In Acts it was the name of Jesus that healed the lame man. His name is so powerful that it overrules a title.

  72. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… to me this anger and bitterness held so dearly, is nothing but human un-forgiveness. But forgiveness held so equally dearly is truly living outside your humanity, and constantly relenting to the Master’s call upon us, and accepting His provision and blessings.
    It lets us wonder if Frank still hears that still small voice, or does he hear it and still choose to ignore it, by serving self and by dishonoring his parents?
    Today’s ODB cited a Psalm where many blessings are bestowed, but most credited was that right living one mentioned last, because that had the Kingdom of God attached to it. Living in forgiveness, is surely right living. Strange to me, how right living is labeled legalism and being persecuted today, and yet living for self gets the great applause and support of the masses. Gary

  73. confeticat says:

    Billystan,
    A pastor has no more access to God than we do. That is a rumor they started to keep us subservient and under their control.

    A “180” is repentance – turning around and going the other way. I’m happy you did that and I’m sure you are. Paul did it too – he was converted. That is the first step, provided you are coming through Jesus. There are conversions in AA, for example, that occur without Jesus and are merely “turning over a new leaf”.

    As to the Bible’s validity, the prophet Jeremiah said to take the precious from the worthless (Jer. 15:19).

    I’d like to add one more comment to what Steve said. The demons knew Jesus as Jesus of Nazareth, the Holy One of God (Luke 4:34).

  74. kingdomkid7 says:

    confeticat, Could you expand on what you think the Jeremiah scripture you’ve quoted means? Would it mean, for example, that we should also read the Q’uran and try to extract what’s worthwhile from it ?

  75. phpatato says:

    Billystan, if I understand Confeticat’s reply to my comment correctly, and as you have touched on the same line of thought as I did…. he believes that God put Paul’s story in the Bible because he is testing us. I think he is saying that God is using Paul as a bad example. Believe what Paul said and you fail God’s test.

    I personally believe that God is not mean-spirited. He loves us far too much and knows exactly how difficult it is for us to stand against the wiles of satan to put stumbling blocks – like hidden and veiled tests (Paul) in our path to trip us up. He wants no one to perish, but instead desires that everyone be saved. And to further my point, when we become like little children, why would God be cruel enough to test little children. Matthew 18:6 shows just how much He dislikes people who place stumbling blocks in front of little ones. He would have to dislike Himself then.

    May I ask Confeticat….did you see a real live peacock on the steps of your church? And, did it let you in? Or are you just talking in hidden parables. I ask because if it were real, I wonder if you’ve seen pink elephants too. Not to be rude, just trying to understand what reality is to you.

  76. poohpity says:

    On whether we need to go to the Spirit rather than the “Christianity of Paul” after careful examination of what is shared in the Bible I would have to agree that Paul’s life was a reflection of living and abiding in that Spirit. His teaching was based on the Gospel not only Paul’s teaching but his life as recorded seems to emulate his surrender to Christ Jesus. No matter what one calls that whether it is Christianity, the Church or the Body of believers. I would also agree that the name Christian can at times be misnomer of those who call themselves by it but should we loving, gently, kindly and patiently present our cases and then leave the results in the hand of God?

    I think when we at times find one or many for that matter that come into opposition of our beliefs, we tend to take it as a personal insult then lash out with anger, name calling and belittling. By reacting in that manor to me it seems that the name of Christ and all those in His time who did not believe in Him or His message become as those religious leaders who were unable to discuss a matter without demanding stoning, death or flogging.

    I believe in the bible and it’s authority but I can not force that belief on others. I can explain that after reading countless books on many different matters, I have come back to the bible and embraced what it expresses to me daily as I search the pages for more of my Lord and for my human condition.

    After reading all of Paul’s life I have never even questioned His devotion to Christ Jesus but that does not mean that others will not so I disagree with you Mart when you said, “As always, I’m convinced that this group can wade into this kind of water together with a desire to “lovingly” understand those who have their reasons for disagreeing…” Very seldom has that been the case. In the past I was guilty of it as well. I have found that rather than presenting a case for the reason they believe as they do the subject either gets changed or the opposing opinion gets attacked. Paul addressed issues in the groups of people that were new believers about so many different issues, sometimes it was done rather sternly but the good of those listening was foremost in Paul’s mind he followed the teaching and example of His Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I can see so much of Jesus in Paul and I hope one day that can be said of us all.

  77. poohpity says:

    Jesus is His name, Christ was His job.

  78. confeticat says:

    I’m behind, sorry.
    KK7 – the Quran? You must be kidding.

    PHPatato – Read Heb.12:5-7,8-10,11-13
    Yes, i saw a peacock. It wasn’t my church, but it was a city church, where you wouldn’t expect to see one.

  79. phpatato says:

    After walking away I have to come back. Confeticat let me honestly tell you I am not trying to be rude. Here’s what my thoughts are…

    You have just recently joined us. Your comments (and therefore your thoughts) have caused quite a stir. To me, some have been really off the wall. I have tried to find some common ground with you and did once or twice find myself saying..hmm you are right on that. But other times, you are at the far end of the stick to how I see it. So I was thinking, why would someone come to a blog where he knows he is the odd man out. For this I admire your courage. You are swimming upstream against the current. Why. Are you so passionate in what you believe that you are trying very hard to make us see? Are you not really caring what we think, you come only to cause trouble in a boredom kind of way knowing you have complete anonymity? Why. To be honest, at the last, I wondered if you were strung out on something and you are maybe crying out for help.

    Please if my last comment to you was hurtful in any way, please forgive me. It really was not my intent to be rude or condescending or was I taking a cheap shot. I really am trying to understand in the hope that we can finally come together on an internet website and be able to comment on each other’s comments and kinda understand where each of us are coming from.

  80. phpatato says:

    See I’m sorry enough to say it twice. lol Actually I tried stopping the post because I saw a grammar error. I corrected it and see it posted twice..the wrong way and the corrected way.

  81. confeticat says:

    Pooh, I am not questioning Paul’s devotion to Jesus either. That’s what I was talking about when we discussed Frank Schaeffer. We have to be careful about assessing other people’s motives based on the way they appear. That person could be perfect in his heart.

    Jesus isn’t looking for people who look like him (John 7:24). None of us do, and let’s be honest, Paul doesn’t either. You might see something in someone that reminds you of Jesus, but the entire picture will be flawed. We get that idea from Paul. A couple people on here have mentioned wanting to be in the image of Christ. They don’t really want to be in the image of Christ. The image of Christ is found in Rev. 13:14,15.

  82. confeticat says:

    phpatato – your comments were not hurtful to me. there is nothing to forgive.

  83. kingdomkid7 says:

    confeticat, I am trying to take what you say seriously, but I am also looking for some limiting principles under which you may be operating. So my question about the Q’uran asks how valid is the Bible to you as compared, say, to another religion’s book. I ask because I have a notion that you do not accept all of the Bible as God’s inspired Word. I did not make it up. You communicated that. So please explain, if you would, what the Jeremiah passage is saying to you about what is precious and worthless and how far that concept goes. I am in no way kidding.

  84. confeticat says:

    The Bible is precious to me, has been all my life. My grandmother taught me never to place anything on top of a Bible – she meant that literally. There is no comparison to other religious books. It is the word of God, though not the Word of God – that’s Jesus. There is the logos word (Heb. 4:12) and the rhema word (Matt. 4:4; John 6:63) that speaks to your heart.

    There are some errors in what we have today. They are few, but were enough to change the whole course of history since Jesus. I’m referring to the insertion of the word Christ for Messiah.

    The Holy Spirit has shown me that i cannot say that Paul’s letters are God-breathed, because God is not the author of confusion. I can say that God allowed the Catholic Church to place them in with his inspired scripture and gave us the Holy Spirit to show us the difference.

    I have been in a few churches where the pew Bibles just say “The Bible” , not “Holy Bible”. What their reasons are for that I don’t know, but I would agree with that.

  85. davids says:

    Bill, thank you for your posts.

    On the subject, Jesus or Paul? It is a false premise. I will not take it at the word of someone who does not even know that Christ is merely a translation for Messiah, that the letters of Pauls are in the Bible to mislead us.

    In this gospel I find neither love nor peace; neither wisdom nor understanding. There is no discussion, because no premise has been put forward to discuss, as Mart had hoped for, “to try to make sure I reasonably understand the discussion.”

    cherielyn, narrowpathseeker, nice to see you around.

  86. confeticat says:

    Davids – which gospel is that you refer to, Jesus’ or Paul’s?

    If you think that Christ is merely a translation for Messiah, where have you been all your life?

  87. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thank you for explaining what you mean, confeticat. I still think you are preaching “another Jesus” and “another gospel,” but I at least now can follow the pattern of thought. You have not made it easy! ;-). In response to what you say about “error” i will only say that God knows how to protect His Word from any confusion that could be injected by our enemy. Also, we can all trust Paul’s words because God trusted Paul to write them. You differ on that point I imagine. But at least you are not trusting in the Q’uran — and until now, I was not sure you had any limits on what you might be willing to believe.

  88. confeticat says:

    Claudia,
    Christ never told us to be born again. That was Jesus. Our old is not dead, just reborn. Jesus just wants us to be ourselves with him in us. ‘Spiritually’ is a very vague term. New Agers use it, as do others.

    I don’t presume to know Paul’s standing with Jesus. I just said that we should not judge him because we don’t know. Maybe he was doing what God wanted him to do. As he said in I Cor. 1:19, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”

    For goodness sakes, I’m not asking anyone to follow me! I want you to follow Jesus. Nor am I asking you to tear any pages out of your Bibles. My Bibles are still intact.

    The paragraph you wrote about the history of the Bible is good and very true. And there were a lot of spurious books that could have been put into it that were not. Praise God for that. That’s another reason why we should be thankful as well to the Catholic Church.

    I think your post was written in haste and when you cool off you’ll give it some thought.

  89. confeticat says:

    KK7 – I’m sorry I haven’t made it easy. I wish I could express it better, I know there are many who could do a better job and I’ll never understand why God asked me. He must be punishing me for something. ;-)

  90. Bill says:

    @confeticat, are you a Catholic? Is that the branch of Christendom to which you most identify?

    I Googled your screen name and discovered someone named confeticat joined the Catholic Answers Forum on November 8, 2011. I also discovered confeticat is a name often associated with catteries, primarily Persian.

    The Catholic Answers Forum would explain your frequent references to the Catholic Church. However, your insistence on the use of the word Messiah instead of Christian may indicate a Jewish background. I’ve known several Messianic Jews who refer to Jesus as Yeshua or the Messiah, but never Christ. Messianic Jews are also very conscious of the Bible as a Holy book, never placing anything on it or doing anything with it other than revering it as they do the Torah in Temple.

    I’m not trying to say there’s anything wrong with the Catholic Church. Or Messianic Jews. I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from.

    Your grasp of the Bible is extensive, I’ll grant you that. But your understanding of it’s ebb and flow, as well as the meaning of certain passages, is uncommon to most of us here. Again, nothing wrong with that. I’m just trying to understand you better.

    What has God told you to do with your knowledge of the Bible? Do you have a specific “mission,” per se? If so, could you share it with us?

    Thank you for your time. I appreciate your patience.

  91. confeticat says:

    Bill — This isn’t about me, it’s about Jesus. I’ll answer your questions only lest I be accused of trying to hide something. I don’t identify with any branch of Christianity. I did go on the Catholic forum to learn. I did not participate and show my ignorance. My grandmother was not Jewish, at least to her knowledge, she just had a reverence for the Bible. And Confetti my cat is Siamese.

    I don’t have a vast knowledge of the Bible. Memorized Scripture as a child and my tools are the Holy Spirit and a concordance. All I really know about my “mission” is that God has been preparing me for it since before I was born, before I really knew Jesus and was born again.

    And you, Bill, tell us what it’s like to be a detective!

  92. Bill says:

    Hi confeticat,

    Thank you for your honest reply.

    I don’t think anyone here would have accused you of hiding something. I’m grateful for your answers.

    As to your question, I’m not really a detective. I just play one on TV. :)

    Cats are fascinating creatures. Ours teaches us how to play, and makes us laugh often.

    I’m glad you’re living the life God has given you, doing what you think He has laid out for you to do. There’s probably no greater feeling than that, is there? It’s purpose and privilege all rolled into one.

    Please continue to share with us. Where we don’t understand, please try to teach us. We’re open. All we ask is that you be the same. Maybe we can learn from each other…and find a common ground in the middle regarding some of these theological subjects.

    Out of curiosity, how did you discover Mart’s blog?

    Thanks again for your time. I appreciate it.

    Bill

  93. phpatato says:

    Confeticat..your post to me – July 24, 2012 at 2:31 pm
    …God’s discipline is far different than placing a stumbling block. Far different. My earthly father has disciplined me when growing up because I was disobedient. But Never once did he put a stumbling block in my path just to see if I’d trip up. He wouldn’t even think of doing it. Only a pathetic human being who leans towards having a sadistic tendency would do that. In the spiritual world, only satan who is pathetic and sadistic would do that. My God would NEVER place a stumbling block for His little ones to stumble over but discipline..yes He would and does.

  94. confeticat says:

    Hi Bill, I appreciate you too. In fact, I love all you guys.

    My mother listened to Mart’s grandfather on the radio every day and growing up i took it in too by osmosis! Liked those little booklets RBC used to put out. I saved the one on the feasts and when we were talking about that the other day i looked for it but I’d put it in such a ‘safe’ place I couldn’t find it!

  95. Bill says:

    Hi confeticat,

    I’ve heard that Siamese cats are rather sensitive, like they have stomach problems often. Is Confetti that way? Or did I hear wrong about Siamese cats?

    If you’d like to chat via e-mail sometime, Mart could probably give you my e-mail address. Otherwise, I’ll likely be around here.

    Regarding those RBC booklets, I’ve been a fan of those for over two decades. I used to order them and give them away by the box full. RBC has produced some of the most helpful, easy-to-understand ministry materials I’ve ever seen. Very high quality. Their is a wonderful organization.

    Thanks again for being part of the fun around here. I hope you chime in again soon.

    Bill

  96. poohpity says:

    confeticat, I did not discuss Frank S. and I am under the premise that none are perfect of heart.

  97. confeticat says:

    phpatato – You don’t have to worry about stumbling blocks when you have the Holy Spirit. In John 15:26,27 Jesus is speaking of the Helper, the Holy Spirit. Then in John 16:1, he goes on to say: “These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling.” If you are stumbling then you are not in Jesus and haven’t been filled with the Spirit. He is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of his glory blameless with grat joy (Jude 24)

    However, Jesus himself is a stumbling stone to many. “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, and he who believes in him will not be disappointed.” But for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, this became the very cornerstone, and “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offence; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed’ (I Peter 2:6-8).

  98. confeticat says:

    Pooh, Jesus said “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” If what you treasure is in heaven that’s the way to have a perfect heart.

  99. His Sparrow says:

    I amazed at how fast the conversation moves on these blogs. I’m quite a bit slower and less experienced, however; since I can grab a-hold of some quoted scriptures that were backing up a point, here is what it means to me about Paul vs. Jesus;

    I was wondering if Paul had his own gospel, as in different than the gospel of Christ. A starting point for me is DEFINITIONS. Its semantics…words are “maps” of our experiences. I’m studying the comment of July 23, 2012 9:10pm…

    I have a KJ Greek-Hebrew study bible. So for Rom 2:16 “c according to my gospel.” My is not capitalized, but it is underlined and has the superscript 2098 –telling me I can see the Greek word and what the authors believe is the closest translation/ meaning(s). It is also underlined to point me to other verses in the “study helps” section-, which included IITim 2:8 and 1Tim 1:11 and Rom 16:25. All three of these have ‘gospel’ with the superscript 2098. By the way, 1 Tim 1:11 doesn’t use the word “my.” It says “According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”

    Anyway, the lexical aid to the New Testament, in the back of this bible, gives the word: “2098 Euaggelion; gospel. Originally a reward for good news, later becoming the good news itself. The good news of the kingdom of God and salvation through Christ.”(Matt 4: 23, et. al.) “In Paul’s epistles used of the basic facts of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15 1-3) and of the interpretation of these facts (Rom 2:16; Gal 1:7, 11:2).”

    So for me, I understand “my gospel” doesn’t mean Paul’s wrote his own composition about God. However, I could go way deeper, with the same word Paul used “gospel” superscripted 2097 not 2098 in Galatians, where that church was having another gospel given.

    I like what the keyword study said, “The true Gospel of Christ can be declared in different ways to different people, but its truth can never be altered.”

    So, I can understand what God is saying by studying this way, or in reading all of the particular gospel/book of the bible I understand clearly what gospel Paul meant, because once he was done writing (he’s long) that Paul always pointed us to Christ.

    Finally, sometimes I read and the Holy Spirit reveals a meaning for the time that I’m in or brings understanding to something I’ve wondered about for a time.

    That’s why I’m amazed at how fast most of the bloggers go through comments and responses…possibly because we are in a text media, not face to face.

    I really gotta stop and read the referenced scriptures and think about them and think about definitions. It’s kinda like strawberries-I love them. Say “strawberry,” and I think-my favorite fruit. Say “strawberry” to someone who’s allergic to them and they have a different definition because of experience. So a conversation about strawberries is going to have conflict.

    I love my RBC neighbors, wherever you are.

  100. phpatato says:

    Confeticat…this morning at 8:07am

    You said: When the Lord first showed me these things, my first reaction was “get those books out of the Bible!” But now I believe he led the Catholic Church to include them, for they serve his purpose. Jesus said “Follow me”. God said he would test us, he gave us Paul’s letters to test that and (predictably) most everybody ran after Paul.

    My reply to this was that I didn’t believe God allowed the Catholic church to include Paul’s letters in the Bible to serve as a “test” and/or to become a “stumbling block” for us His little ones. He is not mean-spirited to sit back and watch us trip or to fail at a hidden test. God inspired Paul to write those letters and to have them included in the Bible just as He inspired every other author of every other book and have them included the Bible They are all inspired from God to form His Word, The Holy Bible.

    I included a verse on how God dislikes stumbling blocks and you replied with verses on discipline. I then said that stumbling blocks and discipline were two different things. But thank you for your last reply to me. Put it down to miscommunication…or something, but truthfully, your reply has gone in a different direction to what we – or at least I – was talking about.

  101. royalpalm says:

    I appreciate those who take the time to put their posts in this blog…your posts have encouraged and taught me, and I apologize if I have offended anybody…

    Mart, in your intro, you wrote “But that’s what I find in Paul. Even though he seldom quotes Jesus, Paul seems focused on the Son of God while illustrating life in the Spirit. “

    Re: Paul seldom quoting Jesus: I’m thinking that because Paul did not spend 3 years with Jesus, perhaps he did not know much of Jesus’ words like His 12 disciples. I know Jesus taught him Himself, nevertheless, I am impressed when Paul wrote about the last Supper in Corinthians as if he was there! 1 Cor. 11:23

    Paul’s life exemplified one who not only heard the command to preach the Gospel but obeyed it. It did not come from a desire for self recognition but a response to God’s love and grace. He declared only one gospel- the gospel about Jesus Christ that was entrusted to him. His life reflected the life of the One he served – simple, sacrificial, self-denial, service, and suffering. He understood that Jesus Christ is now seated at the right hand of the Father interceding for Him, and the Holy Spirit has been sent by Jesus to be his teacher, guide, power, wisdom.

    Bill you wrote about Christians who know Scriptures, etc. yet their lives do not reflect the love of Jesus. How true and sad… A true Christian who is born of the Spirit, is indwelt by the Spirit, and if we love God and obey Him, the Trinity lives in us. (John 14:23, John 7:39) We are saved to do good works which God has prepared for us to do.(Eph: 2,8,9,10) and it is our works that testify to the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives… Christians who do not live a life pleasing to God will experience struggle because the Holy Spirit wants to work through that person to do good, loving work toward others. It is hard to resist and suppress the urgings of the Holy Spirit. Good works is the visible result of a Spirit filled life.

    The Bible tells us to examine ourselves always – to see if there is a plank in our own eyes before we look for motes in others’ eyes. Even in this blog, we need God’s help. Peter’s experience in Matt. 16: 17, 23 showed that we can be God’s spokesman, one moment and then, satan’s … if we are not vigilant…

  102. royalpalm says:

    Sorry, it should be Ephesians 2:8,9,10.

  103. confeticat says:

    This morning I find some little elves have been hard at work way into the night lol.

    His Sparrow: You and I are much alike. I have to stop and think too or my head goes to swimming. I thought Paul used the term “my gospel” twice, you have found other places he used it. It concerns me that he just said it once.

    The definition you gave of the gospel is “the good news of the kingdom of God and salvation”. Paul did at first preach that. But as you found in I Cor. 15:1-3, the kingdom of God is omitted in his definition. And your Bible notes that “In Paul’s epistles (it is) used of the basic facts of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and of the interpretaion of these facts”. Whoever wrote that uncovered what I am saying – the gospel is different in Paul’s epistles. Paul was another detective – “Just the facts, ma’am.” But the Kingdom of God is dear to Jesus’ heart and the reason he came.

    Keeping in mind that God is One, Ezek. 36:22-32 and Heb. 8:8-13 and other Scripture contain the New Covenant plus what God wants to do in you and in Israel , first through the blood and then through the Spirit, in one package. When Jesus came he divided it up (Isa. 53:12) when he presented the Kingdom.

  104. confeticat says:

    phpatato —

    You seem to have a problem with the concept of God testing us (James 1:3,4). He is not mean-spirited at all, but when our collective pride gets the best of us, that is not good for us. He loves us too much to leave us this way. It is a privilige to be tested by him and an encouragement and a joy when you have passed the test.

  105. confeticat says:

    OH boy, Royal Palm, now you’ve done it. You’ve opened up a communion cup of worms here. In I Cor. 11:23,24,25 26 Paul instituted the Lord’s Supper. You preachers do this all the time and you know more about it than i do. But Paul quotes from Jesus something he did not say “do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” Familiar words – too familiar. Jesus didn’t say them.

    Jesus took the cup twice. After the first time, he told his disciples to share it among yourselves (Luke 22:17). He called this “the fruit of the vine” which he would not drink of from then on until the kingdom of God comes. Then he broke some bread and said “This is my body which is given for you, do this in remembrance of me.” That was then and there for his disciples. He said nothing about “as often as you drink it” to make it an ongoing sacrament.

    The second time he took the cup, after they had eaten, he said “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.” Jesus became the leavened bread that will cut you off from the old covenant (Ex. 12:15) when he bore our sins. Again he said nothing about “as oft as you drink it”.

    Now we are to eat his flesh and drink his blood (John 6:51-53,54-56,57,58) but privately, between him and you. He doesn’t want his DEATH proclaimed, or made the focal point. He wants people to partake of him.

  106. billystan121 says:

    Confeticat: You still have failed to prove your point, you have shown me nothing new.
    billystan121

  107. confeticat says:

    Billystan – Everyone else has told me what I’m saying is TOO new! How do you differ from the rest?

  108. poohpity says:

    They say it is new not that it is truth. They say it is new because it is so differently convoluted and no one has ever heard someone come from that direction not that it is on point or Biblically correct.

  109. confeticat says:

    Jesus says of you, “Let the children come to me. Don’t stop them! For the Kingdom of God belongs to those who are like this child. I tell you the truth, anyone who doesn’t receive the Kingdom of God like a child will never enter it.”

  110. poohpity says:

    No one is stopping a child from accepting the Lord but we are praying that you will venture further in the pages of scripture so that you may learn truth. For example you mentioned that Paul instituted the Lord’s supper or communion then went on and listed what Jesus said about it so you negated the point you were trying to make that it was started by Paul. In you own words you showed that it was in fact Jesus who started it. Circles surrounded by other circles that make no sense but to you, yes, new but distorted.

  111. confeticat says:

    Dear woman, you are healed of your sickness.

  112. oneg2dblu says:

    Wow! A first timer here would not ever open his mouth against this absolute piling on that has taken place on this new voice that may teach us all something we may not have completely read right, or been taught ourselves, being that we are all flawed, all tested, and hopefully all still learning.
    Please excuse my last post as it reflects the worn out state of health I’m currently fighting. I mistakenly used ODB where I should have said ODJ then followed it up with the ODB verse. I seem to have taken a double whammy in the wrong direction of where my actual thoughts should have directed if you will.
    Here was my intended:
    Matthew 5:10 talks of the Kingdom of God and verses 4-9 speak only of blessings. The discipline of right living is always ours to choose, just as the words we use to defend our positions against this new voice.
    Many have chosen to be abundantly harsh, but the new voice has never retaliated in the same manner. I wonder what it is that we fear so much among us.
    Perhaps our being churched is not justified as we would surely be more accommodating to all. Let’s give this new thing more time, and maybe you may be open to learn more about yourself in a good re-read of our own retaliations.
    God Bless Us All! Gary

  113. Bill says:

    @Gary, that’s a very good point. And an ironic one, too. A post or two ago, Mart wrote about the song “The Gambler.” The main point of the Kenny Rogers hit is this: “You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em.”

    In this case, I don’t think the continued back-and-forth debating is helping. On this particular issue, it may be time to fold ’em.

  114. confeticat says:

    Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!. I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one lost sinner who repents then over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

  115. poohpity says:

    :-( Know that you are in my thoughts and prayers, confeticat, that you will be able to determine the voices you hear.

  116. confeticat says:

    I tell you the truth, this poor widow has given more than all the rest of them. For they have given a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she has.

  117. royalpalm says:

    hello, confeticat,

    thank you for noticing that I worked late in the night to put my post…it is because I am always busy during the day –

    If you are here in the Canadian prairie where I live, I would love to have you visit me- right now the apple trees are heavy with fruit and we have already picked 4 gallons of cherries, and some raspberries and saskatoon berries…We’ll have coffee in the deck overlooking the flower bed, full of blooming lilies, delphiniums and lots of other flowers. In the distance we can see the winding river, then yellow fields of canola and beyond is the city skyline…I try to treasure these days because the cold months can be harsh…

    Please know that even if we don’t agree on a lot of things, I really like your style. Your humor shines throughout your posts, along with your kindness…, although I confess I sometimes I don’t get the joke.It’s not your fault – I am just dense)

    Another thing, you are special and you have touched my heart; If I have hurt your feelings, I am very sorry. Your posts are very important, and I appreciate and thank you for sharing shared them. Please know that I will also pray for you.

  118. royalpalm says:

    oops… should be “I appreciate and thank you for sharing them.”

  119. foreverblessed says:

    RoyalPalm, thank you so much for all your writing, they are so uplifting for me. No palms in the prairy, but many fruits, and flowers, sounds like heaven on earth, what a blessing.
    I think we can be stern to a newcomer who tells us to repent from following Christ, or otherwise we will follow the anti-Christ.
    How clever can you get? Never thought of that trick. Sorry, Confeticat, I do not mean to be rude, only want to ask you what made yo do desillusioned in Christ that your heart leaped for joy when a voice told you to throw Him out?

  120. foreverblessed says:

    wrong letters, try again: Confeticat, what made you so desilliusioned in Christ.

  121. confeticat says:

    Thank you, Royal Palm, for your kind words and your prayers. Sounds like you are in paradise already! You’ve got everything except palm trees – surely there are none of those in Canada! One of my sons lives in Canada, in St. John on the Bay of Fundy. But i don’t have a passport so i can’t visit either of you.

    In my boarding school in Fla. my room was called the Palm Room because there was a royal palm outside the window. I like to give my school a plug every once in a while because sadly they are not doing so well these days.

    Forever Blessed – In 1987 I looked up at my church and thought of the Church as a whole and the monumental mess it is in, and it seemed like such an impossible thing to make right, even for the Lord, and i had a heavy heart about it and was very disillusioned because I knew it wasn’t what he intended when he left the earth and I just asked him if anything could be done was he going to do something. I’m sure some of the rest of you have felt like that at some time or other.

    He pointed to my pastor’s office on the corner of the building and said, “The stone the builders rejected as now become the cornerstone.” i didn’t know what he meant, but you can be sure I kept an eye on my pastor after that!

  122. confeticat says:

    You may be wondering what I saw when I looked at my pastor. He didn’t look like any cornerstone to me. He looked more like a sagging worn-out foam rubber pillow (not physically but metaphorically). So I decided he needed some propping up.

    From there began a chain of amusing events which became the low point of my life. I wouldn’t know where to begin to tell you. if he is on here he can tell you if he wants to. He probably doesn’t want to relive it. i wasn’t exactly the member of his dreams.

  123. foreverblessed says:

    Confeticat, I was more thinking in line of your own faith, were you OK being a christian at that time when you were upset about the church as a whole. being and doing and living out of faith in Him. So to speak: were you at that time at rest in Jesus yourself?

  124. confeticat says:

    I was okay with being a Christian at that time because what other choice was there? What I know now never occurred to me then. Yes, I was in Jesus at that time, and he told me some wonderful things but he told me only as much as he wanted me to know then. And sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

  125. foreverblessed says:

    So Jesus was talking to you personally, and told you that the pastor was the cornerstone the builders rejected? I would think, this is not possible, the cornerstone is Jesus Himself.

  126. confeticat says:

    Well, the cornerstone IS Jesus himself but I take it to mean he was in control of the pastor, and others like him.

  127. cherielyn says:

    confeticat,
    You have mentioned reading other books and seem open to doing so. I have a couple to recommend, if you are interested.

    Things That Differ by C.R. Stam and Understanding Your Bible by S. Craig MacDonald.

    Cheryl

  128. foreverblessed says:

    Is Jesus in control of us? Anyway, this pastor was the key to what you want to say

  129. confeticat says:

    Thank you, Cherielyn for the book suggestions. I haven’t read either but wasn’t Stam a missionary who was martyred? Maybe I’m confusing him with someone else.

    I can see why you would ask if Jesus is in control, because it sure doesn’t appear that way. i didn’t know at that time that Jesus had given those in his control the mission of sabotaging the church, although watching my pastor I did consider that one possibility. I had a bunch of theories, most of them cuckoo and i kept them to myself.

    But you see, although Jesus had control of me I had two masters. I was also in Christianity which he had not yet removed from me. Paul tells us when we see a brother in spiritual need to reach out and help him and I didn’t see anyone else helping him so I took it upon myself to try to do that.

  130. foreverblessed says:

    Confeticat, I lost you now already, when you say, “I also was in christianity” what do you mean by that? Meaning, Also?
    You see, I was in christianity too, but that was a diluted christianity, Jesus was not in the central point, but the law (10 commandments) and the church officials of my church.
    So, I say: I had to return to Jesus Christ Himself. He, the one and only Annointed by God.

  131. confeticat says:

    And where is the undiluted Christianity? I only know of one Christianity, with many tentacles. I am a follower of Jesus, no longer consider myself a Christian. But at that time I was a Christian. But also in Jesus. This has been true of Jesus’ followers down through the ages. And it’s been a real hindrance to them. Paul tells them to do one thing, Jesus another. Sometimes it’s hard to know which one you’re following, especially if you’re in the Church. Which most of them have been, as we’re told to assemble ourselves together.

    The pastor I was talking about told me that the church board told him he had to get married. They said there are too many temptations for a pastor who is single. But what if Jesus tells him not to get married? Then what’s he going to do?

    You say you had to return to Jesus Christ Himself, but I bet you are still in Christianity. And if you are, and you’re following Jesus of Nazareth, you are probably a bad Christian.

  132. foreverblessed says:

    Sorry, Confeticat, I lost you. Paul is not saying another thing then Jesus did, they are not contradicting each other. Paul’s writing should be read with the Holy Spirit, the same with what Jesus says: If He says “go and sell all that you have, and give it to the poor”, I bet you did not do that either, did you?

  133. confeticat says:

    I have shown you some ways they contradict each other, but if your heart is closed to the truth you will not see it.

    In church Jesus and Paul are all the same, it doesn’t matter which one because Paul was a follower of Christ. Most of the churches I’ve been in gave Psul’s epistles prominence over the Gospels. Whether or not that was their intention, that’s the way the cookie crumbled. The Kingdom was far out, like one of Paul’s mysteries, something not talked about much. Jesus said “Follow ME.” Paul was a man, Jesus is God. Paul may have been the greatest Christian who ever lived, but he’s still a man. He wasn’t even one of Jesus’ apostles, though he claimed that in almost every letter he wrote.

  134. foreverblessed says:

    Confeticat, so I show you a way that contradicts what Jesus says literally and what we do about. You are able to see the spiritual meaning of what Jesus meant, why can’t you see the spiritual meaning of what Paul says. Why do you take Paul literal and you don’t take Jesus literal?

  135. confeticat says:

    Hmmm, I have to think about that one longer. Can you give me an example?

  136. foreverblessed says:

    Well, I already gave you one: You did not sell all you had and gave it to the poor. While that is what Jesus said to do.
    You know how to deal with what Jesus meant.
    Why can’t you do the same with what Paul says?

  137. confeticat says:

    Your question gave me pause because I wasn’t aware that I don’t take Jesus literally. If something in the Bible makes sense literally, it should be taken literally. Sell all you have and give to the poor makes sense and Jesus knows whether you are willing to do that. if you keep out enough to get by on so that you’re not one of the poor yourself, that also makes sense but that is between you and him. He knows your heart, your willingness. And that applies to more than money. Sell all you have also means your Christianity.

    Still the meanings of Jesus’ parables are meant to be taken literally. Paul wasn’t cool and didn’t have good stories like Jesus did.

  138. poohpity says:

    Jesus said, “Love others as I have loved you” John 15:12 while Paul taught “Since God chose you to be the holy people he loves, you must clothe yourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.” Col 3:12NLT which teaches exactly what Jesus taught about how He loves us by showing mercy, humility, gentleness and above all else how patient God has been towards us since the first sin in the garden.

  139. poohpity says:

    Beyond the obvious difference in Jesus/God vs Paul/man Paul was given the task of taking Jesus’s message to the gentiles not to be Jesus to them but to teach them about Him just like the disciples were given the same task but to different people groups.

  140. confeticat says:

    The message of the Kingdom was a message Jews understood. Of course they didn’t understand that Jesus didn’t come to be an earthly king, they were expecting their messiah to set up a government and conquor their enemies. But a kingdom had meaning to them.

    The Gentiles, on the other hand, had no point of reference to a kingdom and might have misunderstood God’s kingdom even more than the Jews did. Just look at the Church today, the Kingdom is all of a sudden in vogue with some teaching the Church has replaced Israel and all kinds of nonsense. So yes, God may have wanted Paul to skip that message to them, saving it for the end time.

  141. poohpity says:

    The Kingdom is no more vogue today than it was then. So are you then saying that Jesus is the Messiah? Mart said, “If Christ is the Greek word for Messiah, as the Greek New Testament text explains, then the two refer to the same meaning.”

  142. poohpity says:

    If it is so vogue why do people still get killed for having a bible in their hands and for believing that Jesus is the Savior of the world/Messiah/Christ. When something is vogue people have acceptance, acclaim and notoriety, so it is not a true statement.

  143. poohpity says:

    I think you might read a little more of the bible if you say “So yes, God may have wanted Paul to skip that message to them, saving it for the end time.” God did not want the message to be skipped in fact the opposite is true Matthew 28:18-20.

  144. confeticat says:

    “Behold, the Sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.

    “When anyone hears the word of the Kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown by the road.” (Matt. 13:3,4,19).

  145. poohpity says:

    1 Cor 9:1,2

  146. confeticat says:

    “So don’t be afraid, little flock. For it gives your Father great happiness to give you the Kingdom.” (Luke 12:32)

  147. poohpity says:

    Yep, there are many that hear about the Kingdom that do not want it or who walk away after hearing about it or try an analysis it and miss the point. So it is not vogue or very popular.

  148. royalpalm says:

    (Sorry, we just came back from a 300 km trip; gave a 150 km.ride to a young hitchhiker,she still has 400 km to go)

    foreverblessed, yes, I always like to have a garden; things look beautiful and promising when there is some thing growing! The gentle breeze, warm sunshine, birds chirping, varying shades of colors, etc. remind me that this is truly our Father’s world and we are privileged to be His stewards. Our garden always produce more than we need. Through the apples, rhubarbs, potatoes, etc. that we give away we also get to know and invite people to our home.

    confeticat, I enjoyed your story about the palm tree…I hope that you will be able to get a visa and visit Canada, especially your son in St. John. It is a beautiful place. About 10 yrs. ago our family visited the east coast and we stayed there. The Bay of Fundy has the highest tides in the world, as high as 50 ft twice a day in Hopewell, NB! While it is fun to walk in the beach,it is important to be aware of the danger – the tides come in very fast and deep…

    I had to laugh at your story about your pastor. It seemed that when you know that something needed to be done, you don’t hesitate to act… I am curious what happened to him…I am also impressed that you know a lot of verses from the Bible… were you in a Bible study or you studied it on your own?

    You know, God wants us to really know Him – and we know Him through His word, so you are doing well. However, we can also misunderstand things. Only God Himself can teach us the truth because He is the truth and the God of truth. John 14:6; Deut. 32:4

    Like the beaches of Fundy, we can be merrily and innocently walking in what we think is safe, and suddenly, we are in big trouble because we believed a lie. It is important to ASK God to help us know Him and understand His word. Confeticat, I hope and pray that you will do this from the bottom of your heart, because if you do, I am sure He will do it…and things will be different…

    I am looking forward to reading your next post…

  149. royalpalm says:

    sorry, it should read, “It is important to humbly and sincerely ASK God to help us know Him and understand His Word.”

  150. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… thanks for the advice. But you are not the dealer. If you were the gambler, which every one of us really are, unless we are still dealing out our sins upon the world. Would you fold ’em if you knew you were dealt a winning hand? I doubt it!
    “Make every effort” does not sound like just fold in your hand. Unless the gambler’s voice in you says something different. As long as our sin, you know the one that besetts each of us from God’s best for us, the one sin that we will not fold, pretending somehow that it never hurts us, or others. Now somehow, sin is given it’s continued reign over us as long as we are saved, then, we make no effort as if waiting for God to take it away if He wanted? That says to me, that the sin we now desire, even over our Following of Christ, wow that hurt,is that very sin which now reigns over us in this world, and has nothing but a very bad effect on the rest of the world? Unless you are gambling on the opposite of what the bible teaches about our choices that may lead others astray. Aren’t we told, that those things are to be avoided. Sin always separates us from God. I am not talking about the love of God here, which we cannot ever be separated from, but only about the sin we choose for ourselves, that is what still corrupts us as it also corrupts the rest of the world. I believe the message is, Take nothing with you when you choose to follow only him, then you go out into all the world to Reign in the Great Commission. Don’t bring your sin with you either,leave your besetting sin at home in God’s Hands, and just Follow Him. Unless you are saved of course, then you may just lose some kind of rewards later. Really? Where we continue to gamble is in our Holding or Folding that seems to make no difference if it is called Sin, we then just say, Game Over? I think Satan, the ruler of this world, has stacked the deck with lots of bad cards that are now being held…by those who feel such safety in their doctrine, but still corrupt the rest of the of the world by living with their chosen sin. That is the Jinx in the game! Gary

  151. confeticat says:

    Royal Palm – Remembering you are a night person I’m Royal Palm — Remembering that you are a night person, I’m staying up to answer your post which was like a postcard from Canada. I was there once a long time ago. Don’t have a desire to travel, but I would like to live there for the snow. I hope there is snow in heaven, don’t you? though I can’t find anything in the Bible about that. Have you ever seen the Ice Age movies? They are hilarious, especially that squirrel Scrat with his acorn. My favorite is Sid the sloth.

    Haven’t heard anything but as far as I know that pastor has retired and gone fishing. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a Bible study per se, just Sunday School which I usually found boring. When I was a kid I used to pray that I wouldn’t have to go to Sunday School. It was a selfish prayer I guess, but I wonder how many other kids out there have done the same thing.

    Didn’t know that about the tides – that might be a great place to surf! My son walks the beach there to pick up colored glass and bottles. His wife makes jewelry out of them which they sell to the tourists on cruise ships.

    With the Holy Spirit in us we don’t misunderstand things or suddenly find ourselves in trouble we can’t get out of. This would tell us that a lot of people who think they have the Holy Spirt — don’t.

    What things would you like to be different? The Holy Spirit gave me this passage for you, probably because you’re a gardner. Luke 13:6,7,8,9

  152. confeticat says:

    Gary – With your vast knowledge of sin you’re just the person i want to ask. I have this poistcard here from Steve Brown – you know, the guy from KeyLife that tiptoes through the tulip – and he is going on a book tour which he calls “Three Free Sins.” What on earth does he mean?! What are the three free sins? A lot of us would like to know I’m sure.

  153. royalpalm says:

    confeticat, thanks for your post but please have your rest now if you are tired; you can post your reply tomorrow, and it is alright…

    I am glad you also like snow.I come from an island in the Far East where it is endless summer so when I first experience snow, it was a a wonder to me…I have 2 favorite verses in the Bible that mention snow

    (1) Isa. 55:10, (but you have to read from Isa. 55:8,9,10,11 )Here God says that His thoughts and ways are higher than our thoughts and ways – in fact as far apart as the heavens are above the earth! We could never understand God. Nevertheless He wants us to know Him so He sends us His Word.

    What falls down from heaven? – snow and rain- to water the earth, otherwise we have no food nor seeds. God said that HIS WORD is like SNOW and RAIN – without His Word, we too will have drought in our souls.

    (2) Isa.1:18 Here God says that even if our sins are like scarlet (very, very dark red color which represents serious sin) God can make them as white like snow. Isa. 1:19 tells us how- by being willing to be corrected and be obedient to Him…

    You may also read Isa. 55:6,7 – these are also very powerful words from God…

    (I have not read any mention of snow in heaven, but if God wants to create snow there, there will bee snow)

  154. royalpalm says:

    Further to Isa. 55:11, God also says that the Word that He sends WILL Accomplish what pleases Him and WILL Succeed in what He sent it to do!

    When we read God’s Word, we learn what pleases Him and what are His purposes – and this knowledge will change us.

  155. foreverblessed says:

    Confeticat,
    Jesus and Paul
    Of all the examples you showed, I cannot see a contradiction between Jesus and Paul:
    -About the bread and wine, Jesus“do this in remembrance of me” Paul “as oft as you do this” (or whatever translation it is exactly “when you do this”)
    -About the head and the Body, to me is the same as what Jesus said: He is the vine we are the branches. John 15:5
    -About the Kingdom, Colossians 1:13, 9-10,11-12,13-14 and 2 Peter 1:11 (although this is Peter)

    Church policy
    Then there is the church policy, if the church board is telling you one thing, and Jesus another, that is a problem, (your post July 26, 11.58 am) but that has noting to do with Paul or Christ.
    Here you are mixing this Jesus and Paul things with church decisions.

    So try at first to disconnect church policy, and decisions of church boards, or church popes, with what Paul wrote. That would give a better discussion.

    I indeed believe things went wrong with the church as a whole.
    When I visited Rome a few years ago and saw the catacombe, there were written on many places: Peter and Paul, the christians were praying for to Peter and Paul for help in the persecutions. That has bothered me. Why not asking Jesus for help. Maybe they did, but did not write it down, maybe there is nothing wrong with it. And the roman church became a political system, using Jesus name, or as you say, Christ’ name, ruling the people, and even killing the ones who were not exactly following thier rules. But that is also something different from what Jesus Christ wanted.
    So disconnect church hitory with christianity as it should be, and will be again when christians will be purged tried and tested. And indeed we will have to grow in the sense Jesus told us:
    love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. Love God with all your might heart and soul. (the wording might be different) Love each other as I have loved you.

    And with all the quoting of what Jesus said in the Gospels, I believe you make this point:lets not forget what He said and follow that. But that is another topic, not the same as the discussion you now want to have that Paul is contradicting Jesus.

    Royalpalm, is the city you can see from afar Calgary?

  156. foreverblessed says:

    Royalpalm, “Further to Isa. 55:11, God also says that the Word that He sends WILL Accomplish what pleases Him and WILL Succeed in what He sent it to do! ” that is so positive, so encouraging, God will be the Winner. When we are wrong here and there in our ways, in our thinking, He will make a way.
    God who says: I do not want anyone to perish. Those are also His words, He will bring it to pass, however He will do this. But that is another discussion. But suddenly this positive Word came to me, by your citing of Is 55. Thanks, praise be to God who is Overall, Everywhere, and our guard and shield, We are in Jesus His Word, if we are in Him what can hinder us?

    His Word will accomplish to what He send it:
    So that is twat I pray Confeticat, for me and for you, and all who read here. We all can grow in the knowledge and grace of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. 1 Peter 3:18

  157. confeticat says:

    Forever Blessed – Remember Floyd the barber on the Andy Griffith show? He mumbled. You remind me of him.

    One of the verses you gave stood out to me – Col. 1:13. He has transferred us into the kingdom of his dear Son. I remember living in the city. When the bus you are on doesn’t go far enough, you get a transfer and you get on another bus. You don’t have to pay again.

    But my concordance says the word ‘transferred’ here means “to change, pervert”. Now I look up the word ‘pervert’ in the dictionary, and I don’t find any good meaning. Corrupt – misdirect – misinterpret – debase. So what Paul is telling me is that either my transfer is no good or the Kingdom itself is no good.

    Jesus said it’s not as easy as a transfer anyway. (Luke 16:16)

    What you say about church policy is off the wall. If your eyes were where your ears are you could walk sideways. I’m mixing Paul with church decisions? Paul has letters devoted to nothing but church policy, instructions to ministers, instructions to deacons, the whole shebang. Look at his letters to Timothy and Titus. That can’t be disconnected from Christianity, that IS Christianity. And every church interprets it a little differently. The Spirit gives revelation, not interpretation.

    You say the Roman church became a political system. What do you think you evangelicals of today are? Most of you vote in one bloc. You demand to have your agenda made the law of the land. You have tantrums when it isn’t. (Zech. 4:6)

    Love, Confeticat

  158. foreverblessed says:

    I wholeheartedly agree with you, that the tantrum of church people is big. Evangelicals, reformed blocks. I see that more as religion. Religiosity, misformed christianity. The guidelines Paul gave should be done in the spirit of humility, as he wrote too (for example “be subject to one another” and the verses Pooh gave) But that was missing. It is not Paul who is wrong, it is the way it was implemented.

    Calling me mumbling? I do not want to take this as you being rude, I am not american you see, so I do not know many of your shows.
    Paul’s wording is wrong in Col 1:13 Transfer meaning pervert? Come on, if Paul uses Kingdom then it is wrong, if Jesus uses it then it is right. You have a sort of dark glasses on when you look at what Paul writes.
    Sorry. I am trying to say this: religiosity is what is wrong. In that I agree with you, but not being christian.

  159. confeticat says:

    Forever Blessed – When i said you were mumbling, I wasn’t referring to the way you write, but what you wrote.

    Jesus didn’t use the word ‘pervert’ when talking about his Kingdom.

    Religiosity comes from our natural bent toward pride and self-rightousness given an outlet in the church service which Paul instituted (Luke 16:15).

  160. foreverblessed says:

    My conconrdance says:
    Col 1:13
    And hath translated us – The word rendered here “translated” is often used in the sense of removing a people from one country to another; see Josephus, Ant. ix. 11. 1. It means, here, that they who are Christians have been transferred from one kingdom to another, as if a people were thus removed. They become subjects of a new kingdom, are under different laws, and belong to a different community. This change is made in regeneration, by which we pass from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light; from the empire of sin, ignorance, and misery, to one of holiness, knowledge, and happiness. No change, therefore, in a man’s life is so important as this; and no words can suitably express the gratitude which they should feel who are thus transferred from the empire of darkness to that of light.

  161. foreverblessed says:

    OK, I gave you 3 points in which I say Paul is in line with Jesus, and then you call me mumbling. So I take it you have no arguments against them.

  162. confeticat says:

    Jesus and Paul used the word ‘regeneration’ speaking of two different things. Jesus used it in Matt. 19:28 in reference to the Kingdom. Paul used it in Titus 3:5 to refer to salvation, because there is no washing needed when you come into the Kingdom – you are born anew.

    Salvation is one thing, being born again another.

  163. confeticat says:

    In the translation used here, ‘new world’ is substituted for ‘regeneration’.

  164. poohpity says:

    Ooooooh now I see why there is so much confusion. The translation you are using was changed by someone trying to rewrite the KJV in 1954 to suit a religion, Jehovah Witnesses use it.

  165. oneg2dblu says:

    Good morning and what a great dialog going on here. First I would like to embrace what pooh said in her 7-26 6:48 post. In her reframing for us what the In Vogue Churches will preach as a popular word, very true that OSAS sells easily, and the Kingdom teaching does not sell so well unless you are “not” on the list. Viewing that list may be why many don’t want it, walk away from it, and even deny its power, teaching, and purpose. Revelation 21:8 KJV won’t be believed as written either, because OSAS proponents like William Pettingill must limit it to only apply to those who are not saved, and that limit is not found in that verse, it must be added by believing a particular In Vogue doctrine, OSAS adds to them, “Unless you are Saved,” even over the actual words written in Revelation. Remember this, where if anyone takes away or adds to them, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city. Revelation 22:18, 19 NIV, but, KJV says book of life.
    That is quite clearly written to the saved who are the only ones who possess this share. Revelation 2:7 we learn that Jesus promises for those already saved, if they overcome they will have the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
    Revelation 21:27 describes access to the holy city is for those who have their names written in the book of life, and Revelation 20:15 says all others will be thrown into the lake of fire. So, you can loose your share in the holy city if you take away or add to the book of this prophesy. A believer’s security is conditional, according to this book of revelation.
    But that message is not In Vogue with OSAS proponents and followers. Just a thought about how our actions even after salvation, are very conditional. Once a doctrine tries to change this revelation, it is doomed, but those who follow it still have a chance to repent for being deceived by following a false doctrine.
    I wonder if any of the more mature reading this feel they have an answer or reason why Revelation says one thing and their Vogue Church Doctrine another? Gary

  166. poohpity says:

    It is time to run away because the cards have been folded.

  167. confeticat says:

    Gary – you never answered my question last night about Three Free Sins. I don’t know the answer – if you do, I wish you’d share it with us.

  168. oneg2dblu says:

    Confeticat… love that moniker. Thanks for trying to esteem me with my vast knowledge of sin, but I feel the three Personhoods of God which we do get to choose daily would be a better place to take your question.
    I now hold Steve’s book in my hand, my right hand, and type with my left.
    How current you are with your literature. You are of course speaking about the author of A Scandalous Freedom.
    This much ridiculed book, three free sins, highlights for us that any three sins, those we get to choose for ourselves, and saying if one sin is forgiven then surely all must.
    Wrong right out of the starting block, forgive my using “concerning the race, or making every effort lingo here,” for we all know that there is one sin that cannot be forgiven, or are we also given that sin free reign as well?
    How limiting to only get three, where OSAS doctrine says keep one or all, and you certainly believe that, so why not enjoy them all!
    See the Jinx in false doctrine that allows us to choose, or remain in any sin?
    How about, choosing disobedience and unbelief, are they also wholly reserved and deemed as holy only for the saved?
    One doctrine, OSAS, the only one I currently know of thank God, says that salvation is absolutely unconditional.
    Does any other voice here realize this is a false doctrine and is now being taught as gospel truth?
    I ask this,”Did God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, or any scripture as actually written, and not interpreted by in vogue choices, actually say that salvation is both irrevocable and unconditional?”
    If so, then the whole Book of Revelation also fails to be of any use or valid revelation for you. Choose your doctrine well, and forget about choosing your three free sins. Gary

  169. foreverblessed says:

    Just a quick hop in, Confeticat, the church going the wrong way would have happened in the same way if the name of Christ was not attached to Jesus. All the same things would have happened, and it would now be called Jesusanity. It has to do with human nature taking advantage of a very Bright Light called Jesus Christ.
    The church was organised way before Paul had entered the scene.
    I have got to go, thanks for the discussion COnfeticat, it made me think over these things and appreciate them more and more, in fact I started to appreciate Paul much more now.
    GOd bless you, and keep you and enlighten your heart more and more, adn I pray that for all of us here, because we know so little yet, but as long as we walk with Jesus, walking upheart.
    And I am still comforted by Isaiah 55:11 May GOd fulfill His Word in us

  170. confeticat says:

    Thank you so much, Gary. i didn’t mean for you to go out and buy the book! That is going the extra mile. I’m going to have to study all this. I don’t see where he gets three from. You seem to have Armenian leanings and he is a Calvinist, “the group that chooses you”, that’s why I wanted your take. I wouldn’t expect you to agree but i didn’t realize the gap was so big.

  171. confeticat says:

    To respond to Forever Blessed’s comment, I’m sure he’s right that another (or several) false groups would have sprung up. i don’t know what they would have called themselves, that’s not important. There was a group called The Way, I don’t remember if they really followed Jesus or not. But the whole big kahuna? No. Because every group must have a charismatic leader. They weren’t following Jesus, so Satan had to have that ‘Christ’ on there to take his place. To suck his blood. To claim his titles and his place on earth and in heaven. To outshine him. And on and on.

    There was a church before Paul entered the scene, but it was not organized to the extent he organized it.

  172. confeticat says:

    Gary – I’m calling it a tossup between Steve’s three free sins and your three Personhoods of God. I’m not going to make a fuss about the trinity because the damage has already been done. So Steve can keep his three sins and hope for the best – lots of luck to him!

    I agree with you that OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved for any that don’t know) is wrong. Heb. 6:4-6 clearly says one can turn away from his salvation. But at that point we part company. Because it’s almost irrelevant – salvation alone doesn’t get you to heaven anyway! It is relevant only in that you don’t want to be in that group in Heb. 6.

    How do you sleep at night? You must go to sleep worried that you’ve overlooked something and what if you should die that night or the Lord return and you’ve got some unconfused sin.

    Steve, on the other hand, has CONFIDENCE. I know that because I saw him walking in a mall here one time. He had his hands behind his back and his head raised to heaven and a grin on his face. I was going to speak to him but I didn’t want to disturb his reverie.

    Both of those extremes are ill-conceived. I learned a bunch of “assurance” verses, only I didn’t understand that they are assurance not for the saved but for those in Jesus. John 10:28,29, etc. “Anybody who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment” (John 3:36). That person may have been saved and had his sins forgiven, but that still applies. This is where your Revelation verses come in – very true.

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