Text Size: Zoom In

Strategies of Diversion

Martin Luther

Many of us have heard it said that, at any given moment, the one truth that Satan is attacking is the most important truth to defend.

This idea is often supported with a quote attributed to Martin Luther: “If I profess, with the loudest voice and the clearest exposition, every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christianity. Where the battle rages the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle-field besides is mere flight and disgrace to him if he flinches at that one point.”

As it turns out Luther may not have spoken or written these exact words. Recent efforts have tracked the statement back to a 19th century novel based on the influence of Luther’s teaching.

What’s most important here, however, is not the source, or even the precise wording, but the idea. Is it true and is it helpful to believe that it is wise, honorable, and necessary to respond to the defense of  “that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking”?

Let’s expand the point so that we don’t get hung up over whether we’re talking about a small issue. What if it’s a big matter with far reaching social implications? How can we be sure that responding to the call to defend any small or large social value would serve the best interests of the Gospel and Kingdom of Christ?

If the devil is a deceiver let’s expect him to assault what is true to the heart and purposes of God by combining strategies of doubt (vs faith), fear (vs hope), self-protection (vs love) and diversion (vs the life-changing Gospel of Christ).

The New Testament reminds us that Satan masquerades as an angel of light (2Cor 11:14).

Yes, all that is evil, twisted, short-sighted, and self-destructive has its roots in the rebellion led by the Enemy of our Creator. But what if all that is ruined is actually the result of a much more strategic attack? What if staking the name and reputation of Christ to moral, political, and theological campaigns to reinforce the purity of family values, sexual fidelity, the local church, conservative governmental policy, and homeland defense is exactly what our enemy wants us to spend our energies on? What if he knows far better than ourselves that attacking the fruit of a problem allows the roots to remain strong and hidden?

Admittedly, raising such questions does not prove that the idea behind the battle strategy quote attributed to Luther is wrong. But what we do know is that Satan is a deceiver who can masquerade as an angel of light.

What would we expect from an angel (or messenger) of light (2Cor 11:13-15)? Would we expect such a messenger to be promoting sexual license or promiscuity? Would someone who is trying to impersonate God and goodness openly advocate a naturalistic origin of life; the break down of family relationships; or disregard for law and order?

Seems like a case could be made that it is more likely that an angel of light would be an advocate of laws, and rightness, and knowledge of the Bible in a way that diverts us from the message, grace, and suffering of a crucified Savior of the world.

What draws our eyes to our only hope of forgiveness, faith, hope, and love?

Or am I missing something? Don’t be afraid to push back  or tear into the above if you think I’m on a slippery slope… or a road that winds down rather than up.


Vote on whether you think this post is something you'll be thinking about:
Vote This Post DownVote This Post Up (+30 rating, 32 votes)
Loading...
113 Comments »

113 Responses to “Strategies of Diversion”

  1. confeticat says:

    Rabbi K – We have a small glitch here. In your “Olive Tree Mystery” (only made it through first half so far) you bend over backwards too far not to say anything against Paul. Maybe you think that’s not your place, but you can’t seem to get the leaven out when it comes to ‘Rav Shaul’ as you call him. If you let him stick his nose in he’s going to mess up our restoration. So I will have to veer off from you in places and hope we come together at the end. You are supposed to be the expert on olive trees and stuff like that and this whole thing is a strain on my brain.

    You are blaming Paul’s olive tree on poor old Zechariah, who had nothing to do with it! Zech. 4 – He keeps asking the angel “What are these two olive trees?” and you say the angel keeps teasing him, “Do you not know what these are?” You say Zechariah should have known who they are, that he should have consulted the writings of his contemporaries, and that he must have been in some kind of willful sin to be teased by an angel and he was rejected from becoming a priest. I distinctly remember being teased by angels and Z must have been a priest because his grandfather Iddo was a priest.

    Finally the angel tells Zechariah that the two olive trees are the two anointed witnesses to represent the Father’s affairs on earth. Which means they would have to be Messiah’s witnesses but Zechariah would not have known that. Anyway, in Jeremiah 11:16 Yahweh names the olive tree of his planting, and it was perfect. Yet in Jer.11:17 something had gone awry from its original design. The good, godly fruit of the original tree turned against Yahweh and against one another. The tree had split into the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Yahweh says the tree that “had been planted in perfection” (quote yours) has been divided and he burned it and broke off its branches because of sin. Two olive trees out of one, two separate houses.

    After reminding us that Scripture always interprets Scripture, you offer Rom. 11:1, saying Paul’s olive tree refers to all Israelites and that he never once hinted that it was Jewish. Paul says he is an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin, which is with Judah. I’d say that and “my fellow countrymen” in verse 14 are pretty big hints that he was speaking of a Jewish tree! Furthermore, if he meant it to be something else he wasn’t clear because it has been taken by Christians to mean a Jewish tree which gentiles are grafted into. (You say that is not the case, and I’m glad to know I’m not a wild gentile hanging out in his Jewish tree – but we‘ll look at that another time). Are you sure Paul was speaking of restoration here? He spoke of jealousy and arrogance, which makes me dislike this passage.

    I will agree with you, Rabbi, that a Jewish olive tree is “false, shortsighted, inaccurate and a classic case of isegesis (whatever that is!) in its worst form, causing millions to misinterpret Scripture!.” (I would have just called it the pits.) But look again, Rabbi, that’s Paul’s tree! The olive tree (one or two?) should be composed of both Jewish and non-Jewish Israelites, but Rav Shaul (Rom. 11:16b) has knocked the socks off your Jer. 11 text. It’s no mystery that Yeshua cannot be the root of Israel. He is the root and descendant of David (Isa. 11:1), the Righteous Branch. Paul is an equal opportunity destroyer.

  2. confeticat says:

    Mart, I moved this post up from the other blog when i read what you said about fruit and roots.

    Yes, an angel of light is more likely to look good and divert our attention to small matters. Restoration is not the Kingdom of God but is a matter of the earthly phase of the kingdom.

  3. SFDBWV says:

    Wow Mart as is one of your talents, you have opened up several different rail lines for my thoughts to travel along, and as is one of my habits easy for me to both lose track of my thoughts and get derailed.

    Let me begin in the Garden of Eden. God had placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, not Satan.

    Satan would have had to go in an entirely different direction in order to deceive Eve had God not provided the means for him to present Eve with the nudging and bolstering that already was germinating in Eve’s heart.

    It seems that Satan already recognized that Eve was attracted to the forbidden tree and at the right moment seized the opportunity to encourage Eve to give in to her desire for the fruit and give her reason to step across that line.

    The great lie was a half truth, but still a lie used to do what?

    In this great debate do we believe that Satan as an angel, a created being, thought or still thinks that he can obtain the same stature and eternal equality as God? That by presenting pitfalls for mankind he can obtain equality with God?

    Or is it that God is always in control and simply uses Satan as a means to provide choices to mankind in an effort to teach, lead, nurture and cultivate people into become the people He wants us to be?

    Producing a crop of people that is worthy of harvesting and as a result of doing so have left over waste that is to be discarded and not used, eternally.

    I begin my thoughts on this subject from this base.

    Steve

  4. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    As hinted at in your comment Steve, God is in total control and satan only roams where God allows.

    As evidenced with Job.

    God seemed supprised when satan appeared in front of Him to ask permision to inflict pain and suffering on Job, but it was God who allowed it.
    In the same way God chastens those He loves to change us for good.

    satan will leave us alone if we are off track, so when he attacks it is a good sign that we are doing something right.

    The half truth or miss quoted scripture is one of his best tricks and will fool us if we do not keep our eye on the ball and test everything we see hear and do.

    Bob

  5. foreverblessed says:

    this is a hard topic, but the line of thinking Mart is throwing up is it like this: If we as christians are busy getting politics straightened up, moral laws, good laws, 10 commandments back in school, then we are not busy doing the work of Jesus, the work of the cross, of forgiveness of sins, of grace.
    Jesus wants people to choose for Him voluntarily, free will. A free choice, not a choice that is forced upon them.
    Like a century ago or more, everybody in a christian country was forced to be christian. The danish christian Kierkegaard was very much against it. People should chose for themselves to follow Christ.

  6. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    Mart, you asked: “What draws our eyes to our only hope of forgiveness, faith, hope, and love?” The entire question is clearly much more complex than this. However, this question is a door to the answer, in my opinion. It always leads to Jesus Christ.

    When I keep my eyes on Jesus, largely by keeping in touch with the gospel account of all that Jesus did in the thirty-odd years of his earthly life, then I have a measure for my own conduct. Jesus did relate to the crowds and multitudes. But, he met each individual at a specific moment and a specific point of need. He called, counseled, healed, and taught most famously (that is, we see it described by the gospel writers) by relating to each one in the context of his/her life – not his own. It all hinges on who Jesus is, but we are not called to paint the whole community with a “Jesus-brush,” but rather to bear witness to Jesus according to his presence at the moment.

    The principles of Christianity are not covered each time we witness to Christ. Instead, I can only share what has been given (1 Peter 3:14, 15, 16) to me. Scriptural “theology” — or understanding and experiencing God — is not systematic. It is not a nailed-down cover for life, but a life-giving person: the God-man Jesus.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  7. Bill says:

    Mart,

    What a wonderful post this morning! This is a great topic, one I think about often…and one that strikes at the very heart of Christianity in 21st century America.

    You wrote: “Let’s expand the point so that we don’t get hung up over whether we’re talking about a small issue. What if it’s a big matter with far reaching social implications? How can we be sure that responding to the call to defend any small or large social value would serve the best interests of the Gospel and Kingdom of Christ?”

    And then: “What if staking the name and reputation of Christ to moral, political, and theological campaigns to reinforce the purity of family values, sexual fidelity, the local church, conservative governmental policy, and homeland defense is exactly what our enemy wants us to spend our energies on? ”

    I think Christians, by and large, major in the minors — only we assure ourselves and everyone around us that they’re majors, that they’re Really. Big. Issues.

    Especially when it comes to political ideologies, social issues, and matters of national pride or reputation.

    We are under assault on all fronts. Everywhere we turn, our faith is being attacked, undermined, diverted, marginalized, and ridiculed. In my lifetime, I’ve never seen a more lawless, reckless, and divisive government in Washington. It is the perfect storm — totally unimagined by our Founding Fathers — that’s a collusion between both chambers of Congress, the Oval Office, and the media. It is virtually impossible to get, let alone recognize, the truth these days. (And I know I’m being political here. Don’t get caught up in this part of what I’m writing. Focus on what follows.)

    The result is an ever-growing agitation, anger, and fear among those of faith. If ever a case could be made for the so-called End Times to be upon us, this is it. We’re living in them. The American public, even the public without any faith to speak of, senses something big is coming.

    However, who’s to blame for the predicament we, as Christians, are in? Is it our enemy, Satan? Or is it — in the words of the classic Pogo cartoon — us?

    I contend it’s us, for the reasons you suggested. Over the years, we have drawn so many lines in the sand, raised so many false flags, and declared so many issues (some as goofy as protesting swear words in movies or theologies we don’t immediately understand or agree with — Rob Bell’s, for example?) The. Most. Important. Ever. Now, no one believes us any more. We’re the boy who cried wolf. Time after time after time.

    As a result, we’ve burned ourselves out, run ourselves ragged, written countless books against each other, staged untold boycotts, and ended up arguing amongst ourselves over points of theology, the some total of which is a big, fat nothing. Zero. Look around us? What do you see? Do you see a unified Church? Do you see unity among the brethren? Do you see the public clamoring to understand what we’re saying, compelled by the Spirit and overcome by the power of God?

    No. We have spent so much time looking like buffoons in the eyes of the public that people are angry at us. They want no part of us. Worse, they now have turned against us to the point where they seek — via laws and the shaping of public opinion — to wipe out our faith from the public square.

    Mart wrote: “Seems like a case could be made that it is more likely that an angel of light would be an advocate of laws, and rightness, and knowledge of the Bible in a way that diverts us from the message, grace, and suffering of a crucified Savior of the world.”

    Amen. Double AMEN!

    The message of the Gospel is very, very simple:

    “…but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,”
    (1 Corinthians 1:23 ESV)

    I think the Gospel, — in fact, the entire sweep of the Bible — can be distilled to two essentials:

    1. Christ, crucified

    2. Love — God’s love for us, our love for each other, our love for the world

    That’s it. Two points. All else is absolute folly. And I mean that literally. Creationism, bad words (or uncovered body parts) in movies, comments by Chick-fil-A owners, boycotts, political ideologies, social “causes”…

    Folly. Pointless. Worthless.

    If we had stuck to our mission — and preached Christ, crucified…and loved others fervently, with whole hearts and open arms — America would not be in the pickle it’s in.

    But we didn’t do that.

    And now we’re in deep doo-doo.

    Mart’s topic today is the most important I’ve seen in a long time — from any Christian leader/teacher. His post is mind blowing. And potentially life changing.

    This is why I have so much respect and admiration for Mart, and for RBC Ministries. The power of BTA is substantial. But we need a hundred more Mart’s and a thousand more BTAs…

    Time for me to go. I’ve rambled long enough. Thank you for reading my comments.

    As always, they’re just opinions. I may be totally wrong. I’m not staking any claims, or drawing any lines in the sand. You have to live your Christian life as you see fit. No one can tell you how to do that but you and God. Bill’s opinion pales in comparison. :)

  8. SFDBWV says:

    “Satan masquerades as an angel of light.”

    Light has several different meanings, as does illumination. Masquerade or disguise gives the idea that Satan has to hide his identity from those he appears to.

    In the garden it was the serpent that beguiled Eve, no mention of Satan until 1 Chronicles 21: 1 when he influenced David to take a census.

    The story of Job thought to have taken place well before Abraham, gives a name to evil, but under God’s control.

    Interesting it is an action of Government that Satan uses to cause Israel to sin.

    It is in Revelation that Satan is called a dragon and old serpent. A dragon in the Hebrew still meaning a serpent and in the Greek meaning a *fabulous* kind of serpent.

    Satan being an angel of light, gives rise to the understanding that he is a spirit being, but must also have the ability to appear before men as both in the physical as well as the spiritual. As other angels appeared before people all throughout scripture according to the will of God.

    When Satan dared Jesus to jump off the top of the pinnacle they were on, Satan quoted Psalms 91: 11, 12 but omitted Psalms 91: 13.

    Have said all of this to show that nothing has changed and neither have the attack methods of Satan.

    Self is still the base of all sin.

    This brings me to the point of Mart’s questions concerning social and political areas of our lives and what or who influences our thinking and alignment accordingly.

    Steve

  9. poohpity says:

    In the fighting lately and Vietnam the blatantly open signs of being attacked were obvious. It was the young children with bombs attached to them or the women who could appeal to compassion that did the most damage not only by blowing people up but to the psyche of our soldiers learning not to trust anyone which has lead to the PTSD. People that were covertly planted in the US since childhood to fit into our population a few here and there that looked like Americans, acted like Americans but had the mindset of destruction. They were under the radar of the FBI, CIA and other protection agencies yet are the very ones who caused so much damage when we were feeling so secure with everyday life. I know because I lived next to those who did the 9/11 attacks but I trusted them and even shared the gospel with them over dinner. Just young men my daughters age who I opened my heart and home to turn around and had such evil in their minds the whole time.

    That is the same thing with people who say they speak in the name of the Lord. Satan is a master of covert attacks and uses those who we think are teaching us God’s Word but because we trust what they say with out having a foundation ourselves can trick and deceive. The overt attacks are obvious from those who are misinformed but the sneaky little things to confuse us about our identity and worth to God are the things we need to ask, “Did God really say that or mean that?”

    We are given a barometer to check and see if one is truly following after God and that is the Fruit of the Spirit listed in Gal 5:22,23,24,25,26. Those are the obvious signs and with God owning our hearts there are no secrets (covert actions) everything is open and above board, no hidden agendas. Only the deceiver comes disguised as an angel of light but the fruit can not be hidden.

  10. confeticat says:

    One of my cats disconnected my computer screen and i couldn’t figure out what to do, so am just getting back on. This IS a very good topic and the comments too and I will join you when I read through and absorb it all.

  11. poohpity says:

    Steve, by the way Adam was right there with Eve and was deceived as well when he was supposed to lead. ;-)

  12. confeticat says:

    As Paul was the one who said Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, he went on in the next verse to answer Mart’s question as to what he meant by it (II Cor. 11:14,15). We know that can be the case, but we can also throw him a curve by the unexpected in Luke 11:18. That is something foreign not only to Satan but to Paul.

    I would like to ask Steve where what was germinating in Eve’s heart came from. It is hard to understand. I would also like to know, since you brought the subject up, when Satan the fabulous appears before men in the physical can he appear in more than one at the same time?

    Spelling Satan’s name with a small letter always amuses me, as though that is going to scare him. Someone said “Satan will leave us alone if we are off track, so when he attacks it is a good sign that we are doing something right.” THAT IS A LIE. It is just the opposite. People who are off track are harassed by Satan. Those in Jesus cannot be touched by him without Jesus’ permission.

    The work of Jesus is to listen to him. After several months or years of that, he might give you something to do. That will NOT be keeping in touch with the gospel account of all he did on earth, and measuring one’s own conduct by that. That will be getting to know him. “SHUT UP and know that I am God”, and let him speak to you.

    Bill has kindly and aptly given us a stirring message on the major flaws of the Church. Now do you respond by lighting a candle in the darkness and singing “This little light of mine, I’m going to let it shine” or do you get on board with Jesus, who has the industrial-strength solution?

    As far as your two-point solution goes, Bill, you should have quit while you were ahead. Ditto the rotting fruit someone carries around like a suicide bomber.

  13. poohpity says:

    John 12:37,38,39,40,41,42,43. Not admitting that Jesus is the Christ amuses me because if one does not realize that then there is not truth in anything else they write.

  14. SFDBWV says:

    A person can be corrupted and fall into sin in one lifetime, Jesus’ offer of forgiveness and grace can also be accomplished in one lifetime.

    Drawing upon scripture as a life example of right and wrong is what most all Christians do. The great difference between Jew and Christian is the difference between believing that by living a righteous life one can saved and by believing that because we can’t live a righteous life God accepted Jesus’ death as a substitute for our punishment and we are then forgiven as a result of His sacrifice, not of our righteousness.

    This does not release us of the obligation to love one another by not leading others into sin, or releasing us from treating others as we want to be treated; by not stealing from them, sleeping with their spouses, murdering them, lying about them to others or living immoral lives.

    To the contrary it obligates us to be living examples of what Jesus wants for us to do all the while presenting a contrast to what the world offers. Changing the world one person at a time, but still changing the world.

    By what basis does the world place as right and wrong?

    I can tell you it is whatever makes them happy and serves them best.

    There is no right or wrong when it comes to serving the wants of self.

    In a supposed democratic society we form a government in order to carry out the actions of fulfilling our collective desires for ourselves and each other.

    So by definition, government policies should reflect the desires of the people it serves.

    Do the government policies where you live reflect your desires for your society as a Christian?

    The Amish have no national ties, not participating in all areas of national living they can avoid, and certainly do not vote. Though enjoy being able to do so by the elective process that gives them that freedom to live as they do.

    Is that *Kingdom* living? Should all Christians adopt this attitude?

    I can tell you this, that horrible afternoon in Jerusalem the people voted by a show of voice to crucify the author of life in favor of a murderer and won out over the silent others who did not stand up for right over wrong.

    I will forever stand up for Jesus of Nazareth and His precepts over people who want only to serve themselves. I feel certain that my influence comes from a lifetime of observing life as well as knowing right from wrong as defined in Scripture, not from lying lips bent on the destruction of mankind and all that is decent and good in the world.

    Steve

  15. foreverblessed says:

    Are we as christians to be busy with right and wrong? It was the tree of good and evil Adam and Eve were not supposed to eat from. Instead: it was the tree of Life!
    Jesus came, and showed what the tree of Life meant: Himself
    Whoever has the Son has Life.
    (I am not saying we are to break the 10 commandments, we will keep them if we abide in Christ, but we will go way beyond that, like loving our enemies, doing good to those who hurt us, but not because a law says so, but because the Life of Christ in the Spirit so urges us for each person individually what is meant for him/her)

  16. confeticat says:

    You have given me a lot to think about, Steve (even though you didn’t answer my questions!). The Kingdom is different from everything else. It’s not easy to explain.

    It’s not a black vs. white existence.

    It’s not a righteous life vs. a forgiven life.

    It’s not being conscious of oneself, or how you’re living, or what people think. It’s simply living in Jesus.

    It’s not changing the world. It’s the contrast of another world.

    Speaking for myself, I do not want a government that reflects Christian values. That’s what I left behind when I left the Church! We already have too much of that influence, that hypocrisy, in politicians and in government now. I would like it to reflect Jesus’ values, but then it would be the Kingdom! I would stand up for Jesus, but I do not feel that pro-life or anti-gay movements stand up for Jesus.

    The Amish way of life has some positive aspects but is similar to living in a monastery and that is not Kingdom living. They often find themselves clashing with society around them as much as they try to stay removed.

    However, I understand that when their sons reach a certain age they can go out into the world briefly and decide which life to choose. That Sophie’s Choice results in the death of whichever life they don’t choose. That particular choice is like entering the Kingdom. You leave your current life never to return.

    But we are to be in the world but not of it. We are to have an influence – to be salt and light (Matt. 13-16). I add verse 16 with caution though. Let them see your good works without seeing you. You will want to be anonymous when you can.

  17. confeticat says:

    That is Matt. 5:13-16

  18. SFDBWV says:

    Here in the United States we have an old folk story about a semi fictional man called Johnny Appleseed.

    As he traveled across the USA he planted apple seeds everywhere he went.

    Apple trees grew all along the various wagon train routes across America and people enjoyed the apples he had planted.

    Johnny had a vision, he acted on it and it not only succeeded but others enjoyed the *fruits* of his labor.

    Sometimes our vision has to be beyond ourselves and our concerns for future people we may never know or see.

    I am of course concerned for my family members, friends and myself, but I also have to think of future generations of people who will take up where I leave off and so must prepare for them as well.

    One way I do that is to know the difference between right and wrong and educate them to it as well. If I educate or influence them to believe that God has no place in our society as well as teach them that there is no God, I have doomed the next generation to not just fail, but to fade into obscurity and disappear as a people all together.

    I can not be silent and allow the efforts of all those who went on before me to be silenced because I choose to not concern myself with right and wrong issues being a political debate.

    I will ally myself with candidates that don’t just agree with me morally, but promise to bring that moral standard of living into leading our nation in that direction.

    To do otherwise is to point future generations in the wrong direction for themselves and give back ground to our adversary already won and as a result perhaps hinder future generations from ever knowing spiritual, Scriptural right from wrong.

    Steve

  19. confeticat says:

    If Johnny Appleseed were planting trees today, his trees wouldn’t make it. Apple trees today need to be weeded and fertilized and sprayed regularly for pests.

    I could be wrong, but I don’t recall Jesus asking us to worry about future generations. “Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof” (Matt. 6:34).

    Just look at the generation we’ve got now. Trickle-down morality has been about as successful as trickle-down economics. Whatever ground the Church won in the past is long lost. The Church failed in teaching right from wrong and now expects the government to do what they failed to do.

  20. poohpity says:

    I think that is one of the questions that Mart posed that we do get lead astray by when he asked, “What if staking the name and reputation of Christ to moral, political, and theological campaigns to reinforce the purity of family values, sexual fidelity, the local church, conservative governmental policy, and homeland defense is exactly what our enemy wants us to spend our energies on?” I would say yes because most would listen to the news or read the paper rather than being in prayer or reading God’s word. The world and all it’s allure keeps us away from a desire for God.

    Any person whether or not they are a believer takes care of their family, their jobs, they vote, they shop they participate in the community that is just part of being in the world they trust and rely on themselves. What is any different in a run of the mill believers life? Nothing.

  21. confeticat says:

    There are many times when it’s more important to listen to the news than to be praying or reading God’s word. God’s word comes through many sources, and Jesus said to watch the signs of the times.

    I know from experience that i learned far more about what God is doing from watching TV (selectively) than the years i gave up TV and just did religious things.

    As for praying, prayer is not just saying words. You pray with your whole life.

  22. remarutho says:

    Good Afternoon Mart & Friends –

    Mart, you wrote:

    “Seems like a case could be made that it is more likely that an angel of light would be an advocate of laws, and rightness, and knowledge of the Bible in a way that diverts us from the message, grace, and suffering of a crucified Savior of the world.”

    I will take up that case with fear and trembling – for “let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.” (2 Samuel 24:14) Slew-foot, that old deceiver, does “masquerade as an angel of light.” He has been condemned by the words of Jesus, when he promised the Holy Spirit to his disciples. (John 16:8, 9, 10, 11) As ruler of the world, Satan is holding a bag with nothing in it. Yet those who truly hate goodness, are ungrateful, arrogant and disobedient listen attentively to his lies.

    In the darkest work of the ruler of the world, corruption enters the hearts of people by the evil one captivating the foolish, counterfeiting faith and opposing the truth. In these last days, when distress is multiplied, these are the ones who cover up their reckless treachery and love of self with “the outward form of godliness,” all the while denying its power. (2 Timothy 3:2, 3, 4, 5) The apostle Paul warns Timothy, “Avoid them!” These are the ones who do not respond to the work of the Holy Spirit because they reject his work in the world. Jude warns (Jude 1:3, 4, 5). This is the chief strategy of diversion.

    Yours in Christ,
    Maru

  23. phpatato says:

    “””What if staking the name and reputation of Christ to moral, political, and theological campaigns TO REINFORCE THE PURITY OF FAMILY VALUES, SEXUAL FIDELITY, THE LOCAL CHURCH, CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENTAL POLICY, AND HOMELAND DEFENSE is exactly what our enemy wants us to spend our energies on?”””

    I don’t know if this is what the enemy wants us to spend our energies on but according to Scripture, this is what God wants us to do.

    Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think about such things.NIV

    Think about such things….(Things to be exhibited by the Christian)

    The last paragraph in Barnes Notes on the Bible for this verse reads – Think on these things – Let them be the object of your careful attention and study, so as to practice them. Think what they are; think on the obligation to observe them; think on the influence which they would have on the world around you.

    Cross references to this verse are: Romans 14:18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

    and

    1Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

    Is it not the right thing to do – to live our lives, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to push for what is pure and true and noble and right (family values, sexual fidelity etc) and then let God take care of what happens afterwards?

    Or am I missing something?

  24. poohpity says:

    “Religious things” are what has caused such harm not only in Jesus time but in ours as well. Reading the Bible to learn “religious things” and reading it to learn more about God are two totally different things one leads to self righteousness and the other leads to abiding/living in/through Christ by showing grace and mercy.

    Taking moments to pray before we act or receive shows who we trust and depend on. Taking time to enjoy being with God throughout our lives we see more clearly the things that are important to Him and if we are filled with Him that kind of love will pour out of us. Not as we understand human love but love the seeks the highest good of others and ourselves. Not to be held in a small community but as we go out into our daily lives interacting with all we come into contact with.

    confeticat, you say there are things more important than reading God’s word and praying. Would that be reading and listening to what a Rabbi teaches rather using your mind to seek out things on your own and listening for Jesus to teach you through prayer?

  25. confeticat says:

    Maru sounds like she has one(s) in mind who she is angry at besides Satan. Since I’ve been out of the Church I don’t know anybody personally like in the Pauline passages she used.

    But Pat has come through to calm her down with Phil. 4:8. Only Pat herself is not thinking of Phil. 4:8, she thinks God wants us to spend our energies on the activities in her first paragraph!

    Phil. 4:8, I’ll admit, is hard to think of when your emotions run high.

    No. it is not the right thing to do and you ARE missing something. You are missing the Kingdom of God, which can’t be detected by visible signs (Luke 17:20). (And you don’t need Phil. 4:8!!)

  26. poohpity says:

    Pat what if it was capitalized this way, “””What if STAKING THE NAME AND REPUTATION OF CHRIST to MORAL, POLITICAL, and THEOLOGICAL CAMPAIGNS to reinforce the purity of family values, sexual fidelity, the local church, conservative governmental policy, and homeland defense is exactly what our enemy wants us to SPEND our energies on?”””

  27. remarutho says:

    Hello All —

    I personally dread this primary/campaign season ramping up to the presidential election in November. The more a candidate jets back and forth across the country — sharing his/her deep spiritual values — the more uneasy I become about the truth.

    Building a coalition of reasonably like-minded voters is an all-consuming enterprise. This has become a professional field of endeavor — the work of social scientists and marketeers for hire to put spin on speeches and campaign appearances. Fund-raising and public endorsement are the metrics of success.

    I feel a deep commitment to cast the one vote I have in a responsible, thoughtful, informed way. I am not convinced that these verbal formulas being batted back and forth have anything to do with the reality of the next four years in our (U.S.) national life. When a campaign team has its eye on the goal of winning, will I, or anybody else be handed a counterfeit? I pray we will not. I must trust the Holy Spirit to guide me in these things. I certainly do not trust the PACs — nor the campaign directors.

    Your question, Mart, is a real one to me:

    “How can we be sure that responding to the call to defend any small or large social value would serve the best interests of the Gospel and Kingdom of Christ?”

    My best answer at this point is, “We cannot be sure that defending social values serves the Gospel and Kingdom of Christ.” “Conservative social values” just doesn’t ring true to me. There is moral law. It cannot be judged in the courts of men — and certainly not in the marketplace.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  28. poohpity says:

    con, actually if you had read the rest of the sentence of Luke 17:20 it was standing right in the midst of them. Luke 17:21 so that means to me that He (Kingdom of God) was visible.

  29. confeticat says:

    Along with Pat’s agenda of lost causes let’s include the “Kingdom of Christ.” You’ve heard of Neverland? That’s it.

  30. confeticat says:

    A better translation of that, Pooh, would be “within them.”

  31. poohpity says:

    Actually our vote does not count for president Maru. I thought that was determined by the Electoral College but I could be mistaken. Three times in history has the popular vote and the EC been differed if that makes really any difference. Is it not God who is the ultimate authority over that anyway?

  32. narrowpathseeker says:

    I could be way off here, but didn’t the Roman government which ruled over the Christians in Christ’s time, worship false gods? Were their values based on our God’s laws? Did Jesus ever try to change the Roman government or protest their values? I would very much like to see our nation to be what I believed it to be before the 1960’s, but I can not foresee any of today’s politicians getting on that bandwagon. Didn’t Adolf Hitler proclaim to be a Christian? Have any of our elected politicians that boldly claimed to be Christians and manipulated Christian support, ever done anything they claimed to their Christians supporters that they would do?

    Bill, I agree with every word that you wrote right down to your very humble sign off.

    Foreverblessed…Amen to your post as well.

  33. poohpity says:

    It can mean both and be correct He was with them at that time and after His death He would live within those who believe.

  34. phpatato says:

    Confeticat

    I bothers me not that you post what you do because they are your thoughts and you are entitled to them. But when you post something assuming you know what I think, that scares me.

    Please don’t type what you think I am thinking. You are often misguided in what you say and I’m scared new readers will actually think that you are right. Instead, please ask me what I’m thinking and I will try to convey in different words what it is I said.

    But….having evoked a negative response from you on my comment indicates to me that I must have said something right. Thank you for that compliment

    And as a side note, you said awhile back, and yes I will research back to where you said it if need be, that you thought all the Gospels and the teachings of Paul should be ripped from the Bible. Oddly, you seem to back up alot of your arguments with verses that should not exist in your mind. Which is it…are those Books only garbage when you want them to be or are they always garbage and you had a weak moment by quoting from one. I am referring of course, to your comment:

    No. it is not the right thing to do and you ARE missing something. You are missing the Kingdom of God, which can’t be detected by visible signs ***LUKE*** 17:20)

    Is it fair to say then, that from now on, you will refrain from quoting as part of your comment, any verses from the parts of the Bible that you think should have been ripped out? Because if it shouldn’t exist, it simply should not exist. After all, you wouldn’t want us to think you are a hypocrite. Right?

  35. phpatato says:

    Pooh what if there was no capitalizing and it was left as it was in Mart’s original quote? lol

  36. poohpity says:

    Then the meaning would not be altered.

  37. kingdomkid7 says:

    We all just have opinions when it comes to a topic such as this. But some opinions would seem to line up more readily with God’s word. I have to confess, when I was “picking and choosing” the parts of the Bible I adhered to, my social and political philosophy lined up more “liberally.”when I stopped playing around with God and read the whole Book, and sat at The feet of Jesus to be taught, I found myself becoming more –“conservative. ” These are just labels of course, but what Steve says is true, I think. God cares about the generations, and so should we. There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is death. That’s a paraphrase. No, there won’t be political parties, or genders, or races in heaven, but the Bible says all we need to know about what IS right and what is wrong. We may not like the fact that our friends and family (or we ourselves?) do not live godly lives, i.e., based on Biblical constraints.– but the Word is our Guide. It tells us what we need to do and know. Following this Word is a choice. Once the heart is ready, God empowers us for righteous living. As a formerly politically correct– to the max — kind of person, I see why it looks “harsh” to some when we don’t compromise on what the word says about family values. But compromise is death to the spirit of God within us. Compromise is a choice of self over God. That’s how I see it at least.

  38. phpatato says:

    Pooh It was not my intent to alter Mart’s meaning in the first place. I only capitalized to emphasize the part I was trying to speak about. Sorry for any confusion. I obviously did a poor job in conveying my thoughts. Maybe next time. lol

  39. poohpity says:

    I understand that Pat but if there is an emphasis on only part of a sentence and not on the whole then we miss the intent the author is trying to convey. I am not trying to be picky as it may seem. What seems to get lost with much of what we read is we take out parts and do not ask ourselves what is the author trying to get me to think about. That can also be applied in many things in life and especially with what we say we believe.

    There are many things we get so involved in and if we step back and really give them some thought, are they being a strategy to divert us from those things that are more important. I do not know about anyone else but daily I have to ask myself, I guess it could be because of my disabilities, is that something that is really that important to give so much time or energy to and does that really matter to God? Is it diverting my attention or consuming my thoughts much to the exclusion of God?

  40. phpatato says:

    If only we could hear what the other says, then you could hear the emphasizing in our voices. Emphasizing is often very useful in helping to clarify something. I guess this time it backfired. The trouble with the written word….sigh.

    Oh well, I’m not about to beat myself up over it. I will try and keep what you said in mind for the next time.

    Sorry Mart!

  41. His Sparrow says:

    Satan attacks love.

    Love, the noun, my Lord Jesus;

    love the verb, what I am to do.

    As far as lawmaking, politics, etc. I would be interested to know how many people ask God before they act and wait for the answer.

    I know I spent a lifetime of ignoring God rather than asking first-He said the Holy Spirit would comfort and guide us-I didn’t pay attention.

    Loving my neighbor may be standing up and fighting or dying for my neighbor-there is no greater love than that a man lays down his life for his friends. (John 15:13).

    Wanna know who my neighbor is, the parable of the (good) Samaritan is the model.
    How to help? Ask the Holy Spirit.

    I think asking God first would weed out a lotta woe.

    What does my Lord consider the priority, the Big? I would offer:

    Matthew 22 where the Pharisees were questioning Jesus about taxes, the resurrection life, and starting at verse 35, King James translation:

    “Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.'”

    After foretelling His betrayal he said, John 13, KJ, at verse 34 and 35:

    “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

    Love
    His Sparrow

    p.s. going on a trip for a few weeks, not sure if I will have internet service…
    ahhh technology solves all problems and causes new ones…

  42. Dinakar says:

    At the core of the matter is the question of human will vs GOD’s sovereignty. wasint it Luther who wrote “bondage of the will” ?
    To get a clear understanding of the sovereignty of God is necessary to weigh both the good and evil we see around us ponder this verse Pro 20:24 A man’s steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way? (ESV)

    Does Satan act within the sovereignty of God or is he an independent operator ?

    I am of the firm view that all events in history be it a Tsunami, the holocaust, 911 or the various genocides we have been a witness to have occurred only with the knowledge of God. This is a hard pill to swallow but necessary to worship God in spirit and in truth. To judge God from a human stand point is folly as His ways are higher than ours.

    To respond to Mart’s article although it may seem important to stand ground on social issues the most important issue is where we stand in our personal walk and obedience to the will of God. This is where ODB plays a role and further regular study of God’s word is mandatory.

    Dinakar

  43. royalpalm says:

    Hello, Mart and BTA family,

    Mart you stated, “Seems like a case could be made that it is more likely that an angel of light would be an advocate of laws, and rightness, and knowledge of the Bible in a way that diverts us from the message, grace, and suffering of a crucified Savior of the world.”

    I totally agree, and I also concur with Bills post August 13, 2012 at 8:01 am especially about the message of crucified Christ.

    Jesus words about what really matters, Matt. 16:26, Luke 12:4,5 should help us recognize satan’s tactic: keep people busy attending to their physical, emotional, etc. needs- as long as they neglect their SOULS. Man, composed of body and soul is under satan’s control until the moment he becomes a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Satan’s dominion over people can only be broken when a person believes in the gospel of Christ Romans 1:6

    Therefore satan uses all diversions to prevent people from hearing about the Gospel, including keeping Christians busy in EVERYTHING except telling the good News about Jesus and His power to save man from satan’s bondage and servitude.

    Paul wrote to 1st century believers in Ephesus, a city of many diversions being a prosperous center of government, commerce, education, culture and idolatry: “ See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise,redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.” Eph. 5:15-17 What is God’s will? That man will know and worship His Creator through Jesus, His Savior- the author and finisher of his faith. (Heb. 12:2)

    There is a great battle going on – the battle for the possession of man’s soul. And as Paul wrote to Timothy, as soldiers of Christ we should not get ourselves entangled with the affairs of this life inorder to please Him who called us. 2 Tim. 2:4, 3

    Let us keep busy SHARING THE GOSPEL in the power of the holy Spirit and with the love of our Lord Jesus Christ just as He commanded us to do. Mark 16:15, Matt. 28:18,19,20.

  44. royalpalm says:

    Sorry, reference should be Rom. 1:16 – the gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes…

  45. royalpalm says:

    Re: divisions among churches, I hope this will encourage you: today is the beginning of the “Fair” in our community of 35,000 +. Every year churches join together and open a booth for Fair Ministry whose mandate is to share the gospel.
    At last nights meeting there were 40 volunteers (to share the gospel) and 3 groups who will pray – all coming from different churches: Baptist (2) Alliance, Anglican (2) Pentecostal(1) Korean (1) Mennonite, Living Water, Reclaim Outreach, Living Faith, etc. The booths will be open from 12 noon to 10:00 p.m.

    There is also a soup kitchen jointly operated by some of these churches. During Easter and Christmas, and sometimes in the Fall, the churches hold a common service which is usually followed by a potluck… The pastors and
    ministers meet together each month.

  46. foreverblessed says:

    That’s so good about churches doing this together. In our country we will have a joined church day on october 6. It will be a day of reconciliation, churches telling each other they are sorry for all the division.
    But I agree so with Royalpalm, are we then bringing the gospel of Christ or are we busy with moral laws? Moral laws are important, but it is more important that a person is being saved by Christ, and then will stand up in a new risen life, and that life will be morally right, (if there is discipleship and teaching, if there is a life of prayer and reading God’s word, and living God’s word).
    We do not put the horse behind the wagon either.
    First saved by Jesus Christ, the gospel of the crucified Christ, and then a risen Christ, living in His life. And when we live in the Spirit we will break no law.
    We are busy with the Tree of Life, like someone wrote above: Jesus came so that we have LIFE, and have it to the full. A Spirit filled life is Life.
    Afcourse we can pray to God about laws in the country, moral laws, about defending the weak, the poor, about the wrong in politics, about the polarisation that is going on. Pray together.

  47. foreverblessed says:

    Seek you first the kingdom of God…
    Why don\t we do that more and more, and be rich in the kingdom of God:
    Rich in love, in joy, in peace, in mercy, in patience Galatians 5:22
    Rich, a full life, Jesus came to give us full life and we ourselves do not have that full life, full if grace, patience, joy.
    We have to ask for these things every morning, and every time during the day, when we lack it.
    I myself tend to lack these things of the kingdom when I focus on that what is wrong in my country, in my fellowmen. And then this Life Jesus wants to give me, is gone, and I am not a good example of being a christian. How can you tell your fellowmen, that is going astray, to live a godly life, when I am agitated by his way of living, it is not the Kingdom life being displayed in me, but annoyance.
    We have to be like Christ, full of His mercy, grace, Joy, (that is an important one) and then maybe, if we have to tell what is wrong to another. But if the Spirit is not saying I have to tell this with my mouth, it is better to start praying. And praying like a child, a childlike trust that my Saviour is capable of making all things new. And not a worried prayer, that things go wrong, that is showing a lick of faith, and God can only act when faith is strong as a childlike faith: total trust in our Father.

    So my advice to myself is; be not poor in this kingdom life, be full of it, ask for more love, more joy, more patience and show it around, especially when things irritate me.

  48. confeticat says:

    Pat, I’m going to call you on what you said last night. You will have to prove where I said THE GOSPELS and the teachings of Paul should be ripped from the Bible, or be found a liar.

  49. SFDBWV says:

    Revelation 20: 1 2, 3 tells of a future time when that old serpent is bound and imprisoned for 1000 years so that he can not deceive the nations.

    Revelation 20: 7, 8 says Satan shall be let lose to once again deceive the nations.

    Matthew 24: 4, 5 Jesus warn us to not let *any man* deceive us; there will be false Christ’s who will deceive many.

    Romans 16: 17, 18, 19 warns us against those who cause divisions and offenses contrary to doctrine who are only concerned about themselves and are expert at sweet talk designed to deceive the simple among us.

    1 John 3: 7, 8 states clearly that he that does the right thing is right and he that does evil is evil, do not be deceived.

    The Scripture is clear, Satan is a liar and deceives those who listen to him and choose to believe his lies, but people are also liars and will do the same, for their own self serving interests.

    What is our measuring stick? Scripture is the guide for living right, anything that disagrees with Scripture is not of God and we should be able to recognize that easily.

    What a man says is only half of righteous living, living righteous being the other half. Yes we may stumble, but righteous living is the direction we strive toward and lead others to.

    Steve

  50. poohpity says:

    I can not lead others to righteous living it seems that Jesus is the only one who can live His righteous life through me. So I strive to know Him more and more and let Him be the One who guides people. My job is to point people to Him and to learn from Him. To me striving to live a righteous life is futile but knowing that I can live a grace filled life and tell others that I have found forgiveness for my lack in the arms of the Savior brings me closer to them and to our Lord. I am a mess that He is faithful to change as long as I am open to allow Him to work.

  51. SFDBWV says:

    Pooh we point people to Jesus by being a living example of what it means to be a professing Christian, not just by telling them of Him.

    If we tell people we are a Christian and invite them to be one also, but live a life contrary to Scripture precepts and Jesus’ teachings we present ourselves as hypocrites and provide a false witness for Christ.

    Thank you for commenting, I was beginning to think no one was out there.

    Steve

  52. poohpity says:

    I point people to Christ by telling them all that He has forgiven me for and that in that forgiveness I can have a relationship with the God of all creation. Nothing I can do can make me righteous it is only Christ living in me. That is how I share the Gospel by sharing the grace and mercy I have received not by my righteous living because I mess up so much I point them to the One I depend on for hope. I never tell anyone look at me and how I live because that would be hypocrisy because I know I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. The example I live is that of grace and forgiveness, loving those who others turn their backs on. Admitting when I do wrong and asking first God to forgive me then going to the person an asking them to forgive me.

    I tell them I believe in the One who died for me so that I may have live in eternity with Him. I tell them I mess up all the time and that is truth. I do not try and be something I am not.

  53. confeticat says:

    Two points of view here, each sincere but neither ideal. Pooh does not want to pretend to be something she’s not, so she tells people all the time that she messes up. She lives as a sinner saved by grace.

    Steve ssys you point people to Jesus by being a living example of what a Christian should be.

    Jesus is the third way. He is the answer for both. If you are living in him, “He is able to keep Pooh from falling and to present Steve faultless in the presence of his glory (Jude 24,25).

  54. kingdomkid7 says:

    Jesus is not concerned about His “reputation.”So the idea that we are either being models of grace, through our tolerance and acceptance of all anti-biblical lifestyles OR we are legalistic bombasts who destroy Jesus’s message and reputation sets up a false dichotomy.

    Walk in love, walk in the light. Let the word cleanse us of Unrighteousness. It is all true. We can do it all through Christ who strengthens us. Sometimes people won’t like us. Oh well.

  55. royalpalm says:

    Yes, foreverblessed, pooh and steve, we need to constantly guard our hearts and renew our minds through the cleansing of God’s word because our work/ministry is the outflow of what is in our hearts.

    Even as I am typing I am aware of the work of the blood in my body– it carries the oxygen and food to all corners while it also picks up the wastes to be discarded. So it is with the blood of Jesus Christ. It is the source of cleansing and power in His body, the church. When I read again the wonderful works in 1 Cor. 13:3 – giving ALL to the poor, giving up the body in sacrifice – yet without love it counts as nothing. I I need to remember that only those works that are done in Christ’s love and in the power of the Holy Spirit count.

    How easy it is to get distracted e.g. greed is so subtle. Sometimes we like to take advantage of a situation to get ahead at the expense of another; pride – looking down on others with the false notion that we will look better. Even in our Fair ministry, competition, dissention, arguing, etc. can arise. Unless God’s peace rules and His word resides in our hearts we will be easily irritated. Nevertheless His blood is always available for cleansing. Let us always come to His throne of grace and mercy because Jesus opened the way for us! Psalm 145:1,2,3

  56. royalpalm says:

    kingdomkid, sorry I post same time as you :o)… I agree with what you said… we try to please the Lord who lived His life pleasing His Father Matt. 3:17 as an example for us. He is loving, gracious and merciful and the ultimate judge of what is right and good.

  57. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, I don’t know about anyone else but I believe that my political views are too offensive to too many and I don’t want to offend anyone. However, I will risk commenting that I do not believe that any politician at this time has any genuine concern for God’s laws or Godly principles other than to speak of those matters to secure votes. Therefore, I have chosen not to vote at all and I think that decision is seemingly most offensive to believers and unbelievers alike. I have no idea who God will put in office or why, but I will leave it to Him. The mudslinging and deceitful practices engaged in by candidates and their supporters of both sides has for me made voting for any of these candidates something that I just don’t believe is in the Plan for me right now.

  58. phpatato says:

    July 24, 2012 at 8:07 am

    When the Lord first showed me these things, my first reaction was “get those books out of the Bible!”

    July 24, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    As to the Bible’s validity, the prophet Jeremiah said to take the precious from the worthless (Jer. 15:19).

    confeticat says:
    July 11, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    Some verses taken out of the Bible? No, some BOOKS should be taken out of the Bible! But it’s too late for that now

  59. phpatato says:

    Luke turned out to be as crafty as Paul,

    The Holy Spirit has shown me that i cannot say that Paul’s letters are God-breathed

    You mentioned “go to the Spirit rather than the Christianity of Paul.” First we have to allow the Spirit to untangle himself FROM the Christianity of Paul, who usurped him in the wrong way and caused mass confusion.

    Paul bragged on himself a lot (Phil. 3:3,4,5,6.) But that in itself does not make him a fraud. What makes him a fraud is that Jesus Christ is not Jesus of Nazareth.

  60. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    This topic comes in and out of focus for me. Some BTA folks have (responsibly) commented upon the idea that as the community of Christ’s faithful we cannot or do not keep society’s attention upon Jesus at all times. We as the body of Christ have had our go at legislating morality – it has not worked so far. The 21st century market-place has a built-in bias that resists efforts to convince or win hearts and minds to Jesus.

    Another issue that adds a layer of complexity to the discussion is that the very members of the body of Christ come into the fellowship with all kinds of motives. Some of us are mighty diverted by ideologies and all kinds of “good causes” that do not have anything to do with the Kingdom of Christ. I have actually had fellow church attendees chide me for not joining their alliance or action committee! I have been told that refusing to participate in the political struggle is the same as being unfaithful to the Lord.

    I have no basis for judging all this “Moral Law Imperative” political work except that Jesus says, “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” (Matthew 6:33, 34 KJV)

    Just thinking out loud…
    Blessings,
    Maru

  61. phpatato says:

    I have a busy rest of the week ahead of me.

    I pray for God’s Blessings on each of you!

  62. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thanks royal. Not a problem! Jesus’ yoke is easy and His burden is light. If we are true to His word the world will see Him in us and not us.

  63. confeticat says:

    It is not all true. The trouble with Phil. 4:13 is not only the Christ part, but the “all things”. All what things? Who decides what things? Usually the person doing them, then he wonders why they don’t turn out right. Mart has a list of some “things” that can easily divert us at the top of this blog. If God doesn’t want you doing these things it will amount to nothing.

    Jesus tells us to do the next thing. Rarely will he go beyond that. That is so we will depend on him.

  64. confeticat says:

    Pat, none of those quotes say anything about the Gospels. I was obviously referring to Luke the person, not the book. The Gospels/Jesus are what I am about, and you are trying to destroy that. Admit that you lied about it.

  65. confeticat says:

    Here you have an example of the strategies of diversion. The half-truth. Accomplices with sudden distractions. The hit-and-run.

  66. poohpity says:

    By modeling grace we do not tolerate or accept sin but we the love the person and have to be very careful that we do not fall into sin by being pride filled about our righteousness. Jesus did not come into the world to convict people of their sin but to save people from the consequences of it. We forget our own condition when we walk away from the mirror and then it becomes very easy to concentrate on others. The odd thing is the areas we see that needs work in others is normally the exact areas that need work in our own lives. So I often ask God when I point a finger at someone else is that something that needs His attention in my life.

  67. poohpity says:

    We are diverted by looking outside when there is so much work that needs attention on the inside. God seems to be concerned about our heart condition and there is nothing harder than a little self examination.

  68. poohpity says:

    Jesus told us one of His very important lessons in Matt 7:1-5 and Luke 6:37-42.

  69. kingdomkid7 says:

    All laws legislate morality, not just some of them. All of them. So the question becomes what laws are we going to have? The answer is a reflection of which morality will prevail. For some of us– perhaps not everyone– the thing God has called us to do, “the next thing, the nearest thing” is to simply say what He says and look like Him. None of this requires judgmentalism.

  70. remarutho says:

    Hello Kingdom —

    It seems to me no law can legislate morality. Law simply prescribes consequences for behavior. That changes nothing — not even behavior in fact.

    What sincere discipleship seeks is transformation of the heart, mind and soul. We only ever can put on Jesus’ righteousness. We have none of our own.

    In fact, there is no morality that prevails over a society or a nation, as I have observed, with any uniformity or unity.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  71. davids says:

    I am exhausted. I read Mart’s post last night, and thought it was one of the best sermons I’ve ever experienced. Now I have read through all these comments and am impressed how this blog has turned from irritating to sublime. Thanks to all.

    I could quote the Gospels or the Letters, but instead I will point to the example of Jesus. He did not scorn the company of sinners; rather he preached the Kingdom of Heaven to them. His harshest words were reserved for the hypocrytes: those that laid heavy burdens on others while not acknowledging how they themselves fell short.

    I fall in line with those that favor preaching Christ’s love rather than those that favor creating a Christian society. One needs to come before the other.

  72. kingdomkid7 says:

    I haven’t heard anyone recommending a Christian society. I haven’t even heard anyone judging or condemning. But I do know a thing or two about law and the legislative process. I beg to differ, Maru: laws change conduct. It’s why we pay taxes, stop at red lights, and educate our children until they are 16– the latter only in most states. The whole tax code is designed to encourage some kinda of behaviors and discourage others. This country is founded upon a rule of law. Follow it or go to jail. So I describe it as “moral suasion” a fancy term I learned over 30 years ago. Anyway, laws say we shouldn’t marry our close siblings. They say all kinds of things. Some things used to be loosely based on principles found in our Bible. The “fight” we are talking about is whether we will stop having our
    Laws based upon Juseo-Christian concepts. But to suggest that laws do not have the power to change conduct is wholly untenable. I agree we need to walk in love, but is it incongruent to walk in love while — ar the same time — advocating for what we know to be righteous? I don’t think so. I think we can have both.

  73. kingdomkid7 says:

    Lots of typos in my last post. Sorry! I’m on the road, away from a sit-down computer!!

  74. remarutho says:

    Hi Kingdom!

    Gotta admire your idealism. I see that you have in your protest an imbedded capitulation: “Follow it (the law) or go to jail.” Thank-you, I agree most heartily! :0) I do not care to argue — admiring your position as I do.

    Human nature does not change one iota until the heart is changed by the love of the Law-Giver — the Ruler of the universe — the Savior Jesus Christ. Then we get somewhere with rule of law. I speak in the moral, not social sphere. This is the work of grace, now law.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  75. remarutho says:

    Meant to write This is the work of grace, not law.
    Sorry. Maru

  76. poohpity says:

    If we busy ourselves with compliance to the law our attention is on that. When we act as a much loved child of the King our attention is on the One who loves enough to pay our penalty for our inability to follow that law. Christ living within us and us abiding in Him is the only means for change. Have you ever tried to not do something only to find that you do it anyway? How many New Years resolutions are kept? How many speed limits are broken? How many hateful things are said when we are pushed in a corner or are trying to defend ourselves? Good luck with that. How many enemies do we pray for and do good to them? How many times are we angry because someone does something we do not like?

  77. poohpity says:

    “What draws our eyes to our only hope of forgiveness, faith, hope, and love?” It certainly is not following the law because we break them but realizing our inability is what helps us to kneel at the foot of the Cross. There is and only will be One person in the whole world that could do that and it certainly was not any human being alive in the past, present or future but was in fact the God/Man. Can following the law divert us from looking to Christ, you bet it can and it will, plenty of history to prove that one.

  78. kingdomkid7 says:

    I really do not want to argue about anything that is a given. Much earlier, I acknowledged that only Our Savior can change the heart and lead us to righteousness. But we live in a material universe in which our spiritual state is manifested by our conduct. In times past it was abolitionists who were told to back off. Today it’s the “fanatics” who claim that some conduct such as abortion– to wade right in –should not be tolerated. I once chewed ou an abortion protester who tried to make the slavery analogy with me. I owe him an apology. Call me an idealist if you will. It’s the idealist in me who dares to love her enemy and knows that only God’s grace changes people and society. Label me Exhibit a.

  79. poohpity says:

    So does that mean we stand at abortion clinics and protest? I had an abortion when I was 19 so I know how devastating they can be but rather than making a stand against them or any other sin, I share how it effected me and offer other alternatives. So rather than protest I put time into the Child Crisis pregnancy center which offers different choices. One is a negative approach and the other is a positive action.

  80. poohpity says:

    If we win souls for Christ then maybe they will make different choices before they are even faced with an abortion.

  81. SFDBWV says:

    Perhaps yesterday I would have been better understood if I had said Allow Jesus’ nature to show through us, instead of trying to live righteously.

    Though I truly believe the process to be a life long struggle; I also believe that each moment of our lives we make choices, but once we have Christ in us our choices should be led by Him.

    The OT shows clearly that God likes order, not random chaos. That God instituted the type of laws and order He wanted mankind to follow even creating ways for forgiveness as well as punishments.

    Jesus, as has been said, lived a life purposely to please the Father; in doing less we are not following Jesus, but rather are in opposition to Him.

    The issue of abortion has come up in the thread of conversation. Strange when I was a young Marine the emerging counter culture of the 60’s called me and my fellow service members “baby killers”.

    Yet their adoption of a drop out, turn on, do your own thing, free love, hippie culture, demanding abortion on demand for every woman as her right; made their generation the greatest baby killers in history.

    Narrowpathseeker, your decision to vote or not is a freedom provided you, Do as your conscience dictates, I will still love you.

    What kind of witness for Christ am I, if I swear, rant and rave, use whores, do drugs, use alcohol in excess, lie, steal and cheat others all the while saying, “I am a Christian”?

    Christ in us should convict us and change us; being born again means becoming a new person with a new heart and new desires, providing the vessel for the light of Jesus to shine from us in action and deed and persona.

    Becoming a follower of Jesus and picking up the mantel of being Christian is not easy, and will always present a struggle all of your life, but we can take strength in knowing Jesus is with us all the way all the time helping to carry our load and God the Father always willing to forgive us our weaknesses as we strive toward Him, but the key is we continue to strive toward Him.

    Steve

  82. confeticat says:

    Martin Luther jumped from the frying pan into the fire. He saw error in the Catholic church, read “The righteous shall live by faith” and ended up multiplying more error throughout Protestant churches. In fact, one reason there are so many Protestant churches is because they don’t agree on this particular subject and have complicated it beyond belief. He must have read Paul’s abbreviated version of that verse, because if he had read it in Heb. 10:38 he would have read the rest of it, “and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”

    Paul gave it a twist and taught that God gives us an inherent righteousness when we are saved. He called it sealed (Rom. 4:11), attained (Rom. 9:30), Christ the end of the law for righteousness (Rom. 10:4). In Eph. 4:24 he said put on the new self, created in righteousness. In II Cor. 5:21 we have the double imp (utation), an exchange of our sin for God’s righteousness. Don’t let it go to your head.

    Heb. 11:7 calls Noah an heir of righteousness, something he received but he went on to sin. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, though he too went on to sin. So this cannot be an inherent righteousness like Jesus has.

    Think of yourself as a helium balloon. When you are first saved you are filled and soar. But as Ironside, I think it was, said, “I leak.” We all leak. Or shrink back, as we saw in Hebrews.

    God covers us with his righteousness until we become his children, until we are born again. Righteousness that we may draw near the throne of God and find mercy and grace to help in time of need. “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be satisfied” (Matt. 5:6). You would not hunger and thirst for something you already are. You will be satisfied when you are in Jesus and his righteousness.

    The Church looks out on the shrunken and sunken balloons but refuses to release its grip on the strings. This is one of the doctrines that has divided them, the proof is right in front of them, yet they refuse to let it go.

  83. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    Realize that BTA may move on as I continue to think about this micro/macro Christian action topic. Ah, perhaps I am a dinosaur after all…

    I am struck by David McCasland’s comments upon Acts 20:16-24. (Our Daily Bread for this date) Paul is hurrying to Jerusalem in order to be there by Pentecost. Passing through, he testifies to the leadership of the church at Ephesus. He has lived his life before them – staying on track with church planting and preaching and teaching. He has been opposed on every side by the party of the circumcision, among others.

    He has visited house to house – “testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” This is so appealing to me – at this time of my life – not shrinking back (Hebrews 10:36, 39) – but also not running into the marketplace to do battle with every one who opposes the gospel (Matthew 10:11, 12, 13).

    Blessings,
    Maru

  84. Bill says:

    @narrowpathseeker, thank you for your compliment earlier in this thread.

    @confeticat, some of the scariest people I’ve ever met are those who are dead-sure they’re right. For example:

    “Spelling Satan’s name with a small letter always amuses me, as though that is going to scare him. Someone said “Satan will leave us alone if we are off track, so when he attacks it is a good sign that we are doing something right.” THAT IS A LIE. It is just the opposite. People who are off track are harassed by Satan. Those in Jesus cannot be touched by him without Jesus’ permission.”

    No matter how many times I read Scripture, or how many different ways I try to approach the verses, I don’t see a difference in who Satan attacks, be he/she “in Jesus” or not in Jesus. Satan is in the world. He can mess with anyone he wishes. To think one is immune because one is “in Jesus” is folly. There would be no need to put on the full armor of God if we weren’t all in daily jeopardy (no pun intended) from Satan’s attacks.

    You have an amazingly vivid way of writing, using metaphors and references to pop culture like few I’ve ever seen before. But your assertions of infallibility regarding your theology give me pause.

    …especially now that you’re accusing Martin Luther of causing errors in the Protestant churches, presumably down through the centuries.

    I don’t think any one man has messed up Protestant churches. They all have. We all have. We do it every single day of our lives by living argumentative, headstrong, self-absorbed lives…lives without love, lives thinking we truly know everything there is to know about God, the Bible, and the world around us. I’m a half-century old. And the older I get, the more I know that I know nothing.

    @SFDBWV, your last post (August 15, 6:45 am) was spot on. Very well written. My guess is narrowpathseeker is a Ron Paul/Independent/Libertarian. Such folks are totally fed up with the faux two-party system we have in America, both parties of which are ruled by a shadow government, perhaps even the unknown, unseen, and unreported members of the Federal Reserve. I don’t wish to put words in narrowpathseeker’s mouth. I may be wrong in my guess. But, if I’m right, then I can fully sympathize with narrow’s assessment of the political climate in America, circa 2012. If more people took the Red Pill (a reference to the movie The Matrix), we’d be better off. Alas…

    @Maru, kingdomkid7 is correct regarding laws. All law is based on a moral code. As such, they all “legislate morality.” Laws in America were inherited by English Common Law, carried over from England via Blackstone’s Commentaries, all of which were (more or less) based on the Ten Commandments. Any society’s fundamental laws are based on its view of what’s right, acceptable, and wrong. For us, our entire foundational system of government (Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, and law) sprang from a profound understanding for, appreciation of, and saturation in the Bible. So there’s no possible way to claim laws cannot legislate morality. Laws ARE morality.

    @pooh, your post of August 14 (1:47 pm) was absolutely profound, and truly remarkable in its simplicity, yet utter conformity to the spirit of the Bible:

    “By modeling grace we do not tolerate or accept sin but we the love the person and have to be very careful that we do not fall into sin by being pride filled about our righteousness.”

    There it is. That’s the Gospel in three-dozen words.

    In addition, your posts of August 14 (9:15 pm and 9:33 pm) were the key to how (I think — but what do I know?) we can be an effective witness in contemporary America:

    “If we win souls for Christ then maybe they will make different choices before they are even faced with an abortion.”

    I believe this is true of every “issue.” Our job is not to protest every naughty movie, book (Harry Potter, for Pete’s sake!), abortion clinic, rock group, or politician. Every time we do that, we get caught with our pants down — sometimes literally. Christians have protested for decades and decades and decades. So far, I’m not seeing the fruits of such activities. In fact, just the opposite. The phrase, “To hell in a handbasket” applies in this case. It would be a brave soul, indeed, who could argue America is better off today than we were in, say, 1912. And that’s after a century of protesting about everything.

    Humility, love, compassion, and a desire to embody the Scriptures — rather than yell them at people — will transform our lives, our families, our communities, and our countries.

    Love is deeper, more powerful, and far more inscrutable than we realize. Jesus loved to the point of death. How many of us love enough to even cross the road for someone? Or stop the car when we see a stranded motorist? Or open our homes to the homeless? Or embrace a gay friend (or even a stranger)? Or say, “I love you” to a woman who just had an abortion? Or refrain from saying, “I’m speaking the truth in love” to a person we just tore to shreds with our brutal wielding of the Scriptures?

    Love is the answer. It’s the only answer. It’s the first, last, and only infallible weapon we have. It works every time, fails never, and costs nothing…and everything.

    I seriously believe pooh has struck the right chord in this thread.

    Thank you, pooh. I am humbled by your example.

  85. confeticat says:

    Maru, I’m not sure what your point is but if you will look at the next verse of the Acts passage, you will see that Paul was preaching the Kingdom at Ephesus. And he showed some humility then too.

    There are many who do not turn away and who are saved. It is a good start, not a place for smugness.

  86. remarutho says:

    Dear Bill —

    I will bear in mind that laws are morality as I seek to discern which corporations (including non-profit PACs) fund political candidates, exercising their right as “persons” to produce campaign ads this next eight or nine weeks.

    How shall I abide by the law that defines a corporation as a person with the right to freedom of speech?

    Blessings,
    Maru

  87. Bill says:

    @Maru, morality doesn’t mean moral. It means springing from that which a people define as just, ethical, or right.

    So not every law is “moral” in the sense that it conforms to, say, biblical standards of right and wrong. But every law expresses the mores and ideologies (political and religious) of the society from which it springs.

    I cannot vouch for the wisdom of corporations being persons. However, there’s a very good entry about the subject (Google “Corporate personhood Wiki” and you’ll find it) on the Internet.

    Essentially, the issue is this: Corporations are comprised of people who all have constitutional rights — rights that cannot be violated just because they’ve assembled together in a legal entity.

    If you don’t like that particular law, you should consider lobbying your member of Congress to change it. Or simply not “abide” by it at all. What do you care if corporations are legally defined as persons? How does that affect your life?

    Politically speaking, there are far, far worse contributors to election campaigns than corporations. I don’t think corporations have much sway over elections, anyway. The media, PACs, and contributors who shouldn’t be contributing (foreigners, dead people, etc.) are scarier, in my opinion.

    Ultimately, it’s our faux two-party system and the media in collusion that scares the willies out of me. Plus, a very dumbed-down public willing to believe anything and everything it sees and hears. Even if we eliminated corporations entirely, we’d still have to deal with that.

  88. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Before Princess Diana died the Queen told Paul Burrel, Diana’s Butler, that there were “dark forces” in the land and to be careful.
    The Queen herself felt uneasy and subject to these “dark forces”
    We are talking about satan’s influence here.
    I have some video’s of an Australian guy called Barry Smith, who died in about 2002. He expounds the one world government, the setting up of the illuminati in 1776 (ring any “liberty” bells) and subsequent US elections.
    All based on Bible prophesy.
    Lots involve the highest levels of Free masons plus much more subversive aspects of society.
    We are not immune in Europe to this either.
    There is little we can do to influence the outcome of our so called “free” elections.
    These “dark forces” have already chosen your next president.

    Bob

  89. confeticat says:

    Bill, you people are loose with the truth around here. I’ve never said I’m infallible. No human is infallible. But I’m not wishy-washy about it because I speak with the authority I’ve been given and you are free to take it or leave it. I’m not forcing it on anybody.

    You have bought into Christianity big time. It sounds humble to say you know nothing,and that we all know nothing, but where is that going to get us? Jesus didn’t give his life for us to remain a bunch of know-nothings. And yet it’s not so much how much we know, it’s what we do with what we know. You speak eloquently of the problems in Christianity but only have vague solutions. And one of the vaguest is “love”. I could give you a dozen secular song titles, such as “All You Need is Love.” I see on TV all the time people who risk and in some cases give their lives for others. People who stop for stranded motorists, open their homes to the homeless, embrace a gay person, etc. Some may be Christians, but not all of them are. How is your love any different?

    The armor of God reminds me of a joke. Keep your nose to the grindstone, your shoulder to the wheel, your eye on the ball, and try to work in that position! I repeat, if Satan is active in your life, you are not a child of God.

  90. SFDBWV says:

    Once upon a time having children out of wedlock was considered a shameful act, and looked down upon by society.

    Today it is a welfare check and accepted by society as an alternative lifestyle.

    The devil in this one scenario used the guise of mercy and grace as a reason to not condemn the immoral act of fornication and its results in order to slide it into acceptance in a society of people.

    The object of the devil is to slowly erode morality and Godly living from society and replace it by having an immoral society finding fault with God’s desires and condemning those who try and live a moral life as being judgmental and unforgiving. They look for every excuse to legitimize their immorality, calling moral people “goodie two shoes” and placing them in the minority; condemning mankind to judgment.

    I can not remember a more immoral Present then Bill Clinton, yet because during his ride at the top the economy was bustling, people didn’t care as long as their bellies were full and their wallets as well.

    God judged the people of Israel because of the actions of their leaders, the people supported such leaders and it was not until God removed them or the people repented and came before God seeking His way that things improved for Israel.

    It is no different for any nation in the world.

    If you support corruption and evil leaders you will always have them and so suffer the consequences.

    Steve

  91. remarutho says:

    Hello Steve —

    I am forced to agree with you. There is a strong trend of deception in public life in (now) every nation that claims to be democratic and has an active electronic information stream. Black is called white — and visa versa. Met with friends the other evening and we talked about “when our kids were in public school.” We concluded, as many Christian folks do, that education is not what it used to be. It’s not even what it claims to be. Education is only one facet of this whole societal slide.

    Mart, you wrote: “Seems like a case could be made that it is more likely that an angel of light would be an advocate of laws, and rightness, and knowledge of the Bible in a way that diverts us from the message, grace, and suffering of a crucified Savior of the world.”

    This “way” has filtered into many aspects of national life. As I open my portion of Scripture for the day, I have come to the book of Ezekiel. He is sent in to call the exiles to repentance, and to warn the remaining rulers and people of Judah that the hot breath of the destroyer is about to be in thier faces. Ezekiel will still be there by the River Kebar declaring the word God gives him concerning the fate of the destroyers as well as the destroyed. The wellspring of hope and consolation he draws on is certainly not that Chaldean river — it is the river of Life flowing from God’s throne of grace!

    Blessings,
    Maru

  92. poohpity says:

    But God allows it to happen and that we should find hope in. That God is CONTROL.

    Bill, I am humbled everyday when I look in the mirror and realize that Christ died for someone who has done and continues to do things even though I try not to but nevertheless I do anyway and that those same mercies which are new every morning follow me all the days of my life. That grace and mercy I hold so tightly to and who am I that I should withhold it from others. I fully realize who I was and who I am now but most importantly it is who Christ is and what He did that is the most humbling for someone like me.

    In regards to the political arena I am an advocate of watching what happens in the House and Senate on CSPAN. I also read some of the bills before or after they are presented on the floor, then call my representatives and ask them to vote certain ways. I would rather watch with my own eyes rather than the media slant. When I vote I make sure I do research on the candidates and their platforms rather than listening to all the mudslinging and rhetoric from the campaigning. Past actions speak so much louder than future promises. For some they have had little past actions but have a lot of promises and words that mean little to nothing but just words. Just like almost everything else words are just words until some action is taken.

  93. confeticat says:

    Steve, I know what you’re saying but I’m guilty of calling some politicians “goody two shoes” who are running on a Christian platform. That is the very, sometimes the only, reason I vote against them. I don’t think their hypocrisy to get votes translates into a godly or even moral society.

    It is not the fault of the children born out of wedlock, so are we going to let them starve? Jesus would want us to feed them.

    The devil could not have slid acceptance of an alternative lifestyle in without the sin in people’s hearts.

    Bill Clinton was no worse than the string of other adulterers we’ve had, most of them Republicans. This brings us back to the hypocrisy. Without repentance, God will judge this country whether they hide their sin behind their Christianity or not.

  94. narrowpathseeker says:

    This morning I pulled out a devotional book that I haven’t used in awhile. When I opened it I found a Discovery Series booklet that I had started reading and later couldn’t find to finish it. It is “How Should Christians Respond to Government” I haven’t as yet finished it but I agree totally so far. Although the wind in my political sails has died down to an occasional breeze over the past few years, I have a feeling that by the time I finish this booklet, the sail will be coming down as well.

    Bill and Steve, I addressed my comment to Steve, not meant as a negative tone to the rest of his comment, but in regard to why there might not have been too many comments at that time. I’m sorry if it was taken as such. I feel much the same way about the extreme Liberal mentality. However, I have come to see nothing better from the opposing extreme Conservative mentality either. I have long lost the belief that “we the people” (believers or unbelievers) have any REAL control over our government and that the real goal of the political parties is but to keep us divided and therefore powerless in number so they can carry out their own agendas together.

    However, I believe WE THE BELIEVERS have the POWER of PRAYER and that we should be praying for our leaders whoever they shall be because I believe God is the only One who is more powerful than these frightening powers that be in this nation as well as in the entire world.

    The booklet gives many examples of how God loving biblical characters responded to government and I am going to try my best to follow their examples and pray that I don’t fail as often as I have in my present mission.

    Confeticat, I don’t know your motives for some of your comments, but I prayed for you this morning.

  95. poohpity says:

    Steve, how about JFK? I am so thankful for welfare checks because I was one of those immoral people who had children out of wedlock and the government help me get my BA degree so that I could go to work. While I was working I became disabled and the government has helped me with housing, insurance and disability payments. It was not the church who helped me when I was unable to do things. I believe it was God using the government to help me.

    If I am not mistaken our job is to tell those who have never heard of the amazing grace of our Lord and if we do not feel we ourselves have received that amazing grace because we are so moral have nothing to share because we are so busy boosting of our own morality. (Acts 20:24 NIV)

  96. confeticat says:

    Bob, oooooooooh, you are scary today!! I’ve read about the Illuminati and the Freemasons, interesting conspiracy theories. They may have chosen our next president, but Prov. 16:33!

  97. narrowpathseeker says:

    Poohpity, I too commend you for your very humble posts this morning. Please know that you are not alone in your failed efforts. I get relief from the agony of my many defeats in reading Paul’s confession of the same failures. I know you can probably quote the chapter and verse, but I only remember the gist of it unless I look it up. Have a wonderful day…God Bless.

  98. confeticat says:

    That’s the gist of what I’m saying. If our failed efforts were the other us, God can still use them, but they do not have a negative affect on the person we are now – that was a different person who did those things.

  99. poohpity says:

    Thank you. It is Romans 7:14-24 and the best verse is Romans 7:25 that says we need to thank God because Jesus Christ our Lord has set us free and Romans 8:1.

  100. confeticat says:

    Not the same thing, Pooh. Paul is talking about the same person having a makeover. I am talking about being born anew from above.

  101. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I had a dream last week about the outcome of your presidential election and was shocked that the republicans had won.
    I agree, only what God allows happens!
    But He is allowing the prince of darkness his time to roam and our time to be brought to repentance.

    by the way,
    I have had prophetic dreams before and they usually come to pass eventually.
    I dreamed of 9/11 about six months before the event and saw people in narrow streets with high buildings running away from a large dust cloud that was like a high wall travelling towards them.
    I had no idea where it was and thought of London.
    I went white with shock when I watched TV that fateful day.

    Bob

  102. Bill says:

    @confeticat, you wrote (at 10:26 am):

    “How is your love any different?”

    Answer: It’s not.

    But that’s what makes it all the more essential that Christians follow Jesus’ example and exemplify love. If non-Christians show love every single day, how much more should we who are believers?

    I’m not sure what you mean when you write, “You speak eloquently of the problems in Christianity but only have vague solutions. And one of the vaguest is ‘love’.”

    There’s nothing “vague” about love. The Bible is very clear about what love is. It is that which put Jesus on the cross, and that which kept him there.

    I don’t quote a lot of Scripture simply because I’m not in a dual with verses as my sword. However, I would like to remind you of this:

    “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

    “Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    “Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

    “So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

    (1 Corinthians 13 ESV)

    I realize Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, and you don’t seem to care much for Paul. But, nevertheless, there’s no more sublime, powerful, and eloquent definition of the power — and importance — of love in the entire world.

    How can you say that’s “vague” or, by implication, frivolous because “secular” musicians write songs titled “All You Need Is Love”?

    Christians (and you can substitute any word or phrase you’re most comfortable with there — Jesusians? Followers of Jesus? Children of God? Whatever works for you) should be leading the charge in our example of loving.

    I’m not sure why you’re arguing with me about the importance of love, or seemingly trying to minimize it’s value.

    Do you need a hug?

  103. cherielyn says:

    Bob in Cornwall,

    I too have had dreams that have come true, but most of mine have been things closer to home. For instance, my last child was due on June 4th, 1978. A month before he was born I dreamed that he came 5 days early………….and he did, on May 30th! That is only one example. There are a few others that I won’t take the time to share.

    However, I will share a dream that I had this past weekend. I can’t remember if it was Friday, Saturday or Sunday night, but since it hasn’t come true, yet, I will share it.

    I dreamed that Iran launched a missile at Israel. When it was over halfway to its intended destination, it suddenly made a 180 degree turn and returned to where it had been launched from resulting in indescribable damage!

    Wouldn’t that be an awesome sight to see – the Hand of God intervening for Israel!

  104. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    In the first battle for Jerusalem when the Kings of the North (Russia) and the Kings of the South (Arabs) join together and attack.
    They will be defeated without one weapon being used by Israel or it’s allies.
    It will be as Sodom and Gomorrah, they will be destroyed by an act of God!

  105. poohpity says:

    con, I was answering narrow. That is exactly what a born again person is like if we are at all honest with ourselves, from a born again person who wrote it. Being born again as Jesus described in John 3 is believing in what Jesus did on the Cross as our Messiah/Christ and then the Holy Spirit will come and live in them. If we trust Jesus to save us from the consequences of our sins then we are born again to a life of trust and dependence on His grace and mercy.

  106. confeticat says:

    An unmanned aircraft designed to fly 6 times the speed of sound has crashed over the Pacific Ocean.

  107. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    It was designed to brake up into smaller pieces before landing from it’s 70,000ft test flight to be picked up in Pacific like the old Apollo capsules.
    It’s a cross between a sub orbital and concorde style aircraft.
    London – New York in an hour
    London – Tokyo in 3 hours.

  108. poohpity says:

    An unmanned “experimental” aircraft.

  109. SFDBWV says:

    There is an old adage that states “You can not legislate morality.” A quote probably issued by an office holder providing excuses for his poor voting record concerning moral issues.

    God instituted the nation of Israel and gave them laws to govern themselves by. They had total freedom as long as they worked within the limits God had ordained.

    Yet they rejected God for a king so they could have equal status as their heathen nation neighbors.

    God gave them what they wanted.

    Another old adage is “If you give them enough rope they will hang themselves.”

    It seems God has been allowing mankind to have it his way for a long time, the outcome an eventual hanging.

    The Puritans came to America to escape religious oppression, but then established an equally oppressive society.

    The true strategies of diversion have been used by magicians for years. Keep the eyes of the onlookers on one thing while another thing is being done.

    Satan doesn’t have to whisper in anyone’s ear, God need only allow for mankind to go about having things his way and Satan need do nothing.

    Take a thought about how many freedoms we have lost in the name of making ourselves safe.

    You can bet I will know how to vote this November, but not because I believe the distractions of the candidates, rather because I am not distracted by smooth talk and can recognize a liar when I hear one.

    Steve

  110. poohpity says:

    Yet the writings of Missler are believed. Sometimes they are very hard to detect. Everyone can be deceived. Human beings are fallible.

  111. phpatato says:

    Had a few spare moments to sit and read the end of this topic. I’d like to address Confeticat:

    confeticat says:
    August 14, 2012 at 12:57 pm
    Pat, none of those quotes say anything about the Gospels. I was obviously referring to Luke the person, not the book. The Gospels/Jesus are what I am about, and you are trying to destroy that. Admit that you lied about it.

    Mercy is not quick to judge. To condemn. To censure. Mercy is not characterized by “evil surmising, sinful suspicion, or unfounded speculation.

    Paul exhorted, “Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” Mercy forgives. Because it is kind. Compassionate. Christ like.

    Over the past month, I have read your comments and formed thoughts based on what you have said. What I read is what you have written, not me. In your charge to me, I did not lie about anything. I am not trying to destroy anthing. I have given you proof of what you had written and what I had read. Perhaps you were guilty of writing in haste to get your point across. Perhaps I was guilty of taking your words out of context and thus forming wrong conclusions. Although to add to this mix, there was and continues to be an unmistakable undertone to your words. It borders on being snide and rude. However, as I told Pooh, the written word unfortunately is not the same as the spoken word. In this format, we miss any emphases and it is so much harder to clarify what we mean.

    I will step forward and apologize for perhaps not being merciful enough. I will try harder to analyze what it is you may or may not be trying to say. Please recognize that you make it hard because of your cat and mouse mind games. Remember, there will come a time when that will come around and bite you.

    And although you seem to disregard everything Paul has to say, I hope you are merciful to me should I have taken your comments out of context.

    And just so I know where you stand……..

    “I was obviously referring to Luke the person, not the book.”

    Usually it is when one dislikes a person, they dislike what they have to say as well. You consider Luke to be crafty and the word crafty to me means sly and untrustworthy. When I read what you said of Luke, I (rightfully so) concluded that you did not consider his Book to be worthy of quoting. You doing that, to me, seems like being hypocritical. Again, am I missing something?

    And please set this straight so that I am not accused of “lying” again. Set aside any confusion.

    Thank you

  112. confeticat says:

    Luke 16:10

  113. phpatato says:

    I’m sorry Confeticat but I’m extremely stressed and tired tonight. I haven’t got the energy to analyse what you mean by Luke 16:10. If you are saying that I am dishonest…so be it. Although I am completely baffled as to why dishonesty and me lying for that matter, has to do with any of this. I am not dishonest or lying by pointing out comments that you have actually written. It is not like I made this all up.

    But God knows my heart and I AM willing to stand before Him on this. I am done with you and this issue.

Leave a Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.