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What Opens the Bible?

Many of my generation grew up being wary of those who see every story of the Bible as being a picture of Jesus.

We were warned by our teachers that the practice of typology (i.e. seeing people and things as a foreshadowing of Christ), if not kept in tight check, could be more about our imagination than about the Bible itself.

We learned from church history about ancient Christians like Origen who found hidden allegorical meanings in Scripture that robbed inspired words of their historical and grammatical meanings. We heard examples of how spiritualizing the text could result in wild and crazy ideas.

In the process, with or without such concerns, many of us learned to read the Bible through the eyes of whatever particular church, denomination, or theology we either inherited or chose at some point to be a part of. We read the Bible the way our group read it.

Group think meant that some of us learned to read the Bible as a book of absolute truths that mean what we saw in them. Some saw it as a handbook for social action. Some saw it as being ancient tradition that needs to be reinterpreted through the enlightened eyes of science. Some of us saw it as a good book that finds its highest ground in the golden rule of doing to others as we would have them do to us. Still others learned to read the Bible like a spiritual horoscope of daily devotional impressions, hopes, and dreams; or like our own personal letter from God as if every promise in the book is mine, or like our owner’s manual; or like a handbook for solving problems; or primarily as our own apocalyptic window into the events of the last days.

More than a few of us found ourselves and our spiritual world defined by what our group believed, didn’t believe, did, or didn’t do. Our Bible meant what it meant to us… until we suddenly found ourselves in a global community, overwhelmed with information that earlier generations didn’t have to deal with, and trying to answer questions that our own group couldn’t answer and therefore didn’t want us to ask—about the Bible, ourselves, or those who disagree with our take on what is really true, good, beautiful, loving, and worth living for.

Somewhere along the line, some of us found ourselves looking again at the Bible and realizing that, just like the first disciples of Jesus, there is a basic perspective that gives meaning to everything else—not by turning our imaginations loose—but by letting what is most certain, most true, most good, most important, and most life-changing about the Bible give us a way of putting everything else in perspective.

In that light, I’d like to get your impressions on a 3 minute and 50 second YouTube video by Tim Keller (Pastor of New York City’s Redeemer Presbyterian Church). See if you agree with me that, while being far more expansive than the old typology we learned to be wary of, Keller’s approach is, in its own way, far more measured, particular,  and inspiring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkNa6tLWrqk

In case you are not able to access the link, Keller asks and answers– in a most inspiring way– what is the Bible basically about? Is it about us and what we are supposed to do? Or is it, first and foremost, about Jesus and what he has done for us?


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220 Responses to “What Opens the Bible?”

  1. confeticat says:

    The major part of the Bible, the nucleus that is true, is about Jesus, but it’s for us.

  2. SFDBWV says:

    Having watched the little sermon as you ask of me Mart I am left to ask what is it you are asking from us?

    In the many posts many of us have made our thoughts known, the thoughts attempted to center around the subject, but many times many of us have said as does this video that the story is about Jesus from cover to cover.

    Yet God tells this story in real time using real people and their lives. Those real people being from Adam to you and I including un-numbered billions of other souls.

    The Bible is a story within a story, a lesson within a lesson, multi layered and *alive* not just dead dry ink, but a living connection to God.

    What is the purpose of Jesus without people? Without sin? How can His story be relevant without all of the other factors as given in Scripture as well as in each of our lives?

    Yes the story is about Jesus, but Jesus is about us.

    We are not going to figure it all out in our little conversations here or amongst groups who gather together as common denominations, but we can all follow His directives for us, as He has ask of us and commanded us to do.

    There is more to the comment for us to *love* one another, than just to feel the emotion of *love* or to just *say* it. That takes action from us, not just attitude and it places you and I in the equation of what or who the Bible is all about.

    46 degrees this morning in West Virginia; I like it.

    Steve

  3. Bill says:

    Hi Steve and confeticat…good morning!

    I think what Mart’s saying in this post is that if we all make the Bible subjective, or if we approach it from myriad ways — seeing it, primarily, from the way we approach it (egocentrically, as it were) — then we’ll be unprepared when the world confronts us on that issue, or when we mature and see that issue in a different light.

    For example, science. If we see the Bible as the answer to scientific questions, we’ll be hard pressed to defend it, and retain our faith, when we find ourselves in a room full of Ph.D.s in biochemistry or archeology.

    If we see the Bible as a handbook for social (or political) action, we’ll find ourselves in a tough spot when we’re confronted by a contrary social or political action that we had not considered before. Consider the issue of homosexuality. We may take a very hard-line view of the subject…until we befriend a gay or lesbian person. At that point, we may question our stand, and what we think the Bible says about the subject. At that point, we may feel that the rug just got pulled out from under us, our faith shattered, our world rocked.

    But if we see the Bible for what it is — Jesus’ story from start to finish — and not a handbook for social/political action, science, astrology, or whatever…we’ll be able to stand on that, unwaveringly. When we see the Bible as HIS story, we cannot be derailed, our faith cannot be shaken, we personally cannot be disappointed or disillusioned when we find ourselves changing political parties or social causes.

    That’s my take on this post, anyway. Your mileage may vary.

    @Steve, you’re absolutely right about love. When I post about the necessity of love, I don’t mean the gooey feelings associated with it. I’m about praxis — the application of love, the action of it. Love in action looks like Mother Theresa or MLK or the people who ladle soup in our local soup kitchen or…you know what I mean. Love, from a biblical perspective (in my opinion) is all about selfless action. Jesus on the cross, in other words. That was love personified. Literally.

    Anyway, I’m just typing off the top of my head. I may or may not have offered anything of substance here. It’s just my guess as to what today’s post “means.”

    I will say this: I liked Tim Keller’s video clip. A lot. It was easy to follow, easy to understand, and easy to share with others. Now *those* were some talking points I could get behind. :)

    Thanks for reading this. Good morning to one and all!

    Bill

  4. foreverblessed says:

    What a very inspiring sermon that was! It reminds me of another sermon, forgot by who: He is my King!
    Thank you very much for giving the link.
    And it made me think immediately: Is my life also all about Jesus?
    If I surrender more and more, Jesus can be more and more real in my life, and my life will be more and more real, as the old life will fade away, it was not the full life anyway.
    In the former topic I will say a little more, as it is of topic.

  5. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All –

    Mart, you wrote:
    “See if you agree with me that, while being far more expansive than the old typology we learned to be wary of, Keller’s approach is, in its own way, far more measured, particular, and inspiring.”

    I notice that Pastor Kelly confines his comparisons to the Old Testament. The divisions of those Scriptures remain Torah, Prophets and Writings. So it still basically serves. While the OT has integrity: being law, history, spiritual guidance and so on – the announcement that there would be a New Covenant is present throughout. The New Testament explores this covenant, and the covenant is in the very body and blood of Jesus of Nazareth, Messiah/Christ. He is the Word made flesh. (John 1:14)

    The idea of “typology” works in some ways, because it allows for metaphor and symbolism in interpreting God’s plan. We still draw on the history and wisdom of the Old Testament. In my opinion it still shapes the people of God. Jesus spoke to individuals, but it seems he spoke more often to groups – and I believe he came to shape a people for himself. We remain individuals (maybe more so than ever in our time), but Jesus Christ speaks to us as a people and as some form of church.

    We are not called to go off alone and form a world-view as “Me and Jesus.” Rather, much as the post-temple Jews did for centuries, we are called to read together and allow Scripture to work in us in some context, neighborhood, village, town…the world. One of my most persuasive teachers said, “Rather than reading Scripture; allow Scripture to read you.”

    Blessings,
    Maru

  6. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I’ve deliberately not read the preceding comments in order to give my first impression to you Mart.
    That video was good!
    It made me see a few things I hadn’t noticed about some of the Bible characters.
    Yes the Bible isn’t about me at all, it is about Him.
    BUT the Bible is not written for Him it is written for me!
    So that I may understand, comprehend and Marvel at what He has done!
    I could go on and on about the things He has done for me, but He has done them for you as well, so I would only be reiterating what you already know.
    God Loves us!!!
    Amen!

  7. remarutho says:

    I intended to call the preacher Keller, not Kelly! Maru

  8. fadingman says:

    I would say that the Bible is primarily about God: the Father and Jesus Christ. (The Holy Spirit, while equal in all ways to the Father and Jesus, seems to be less spoken about in the Old Testament.)

    The Bible is also about us, but only in so much that we can appreciate the contrast between ourselves and God: our sinfulness vs. His righteousness, our selfish and conditional love vs. His selfless and unconditional love, our weakness vs. His omnipotence, etc.

    When we make the Bible about us, it takes away the glory from God. For example, we know that God loves sinners. If we do as some preachers do and focus on ourselves (“You are worth something because God loves you”), it detracts from the awesomeness of God, who loves the unlovely. He loves us in spite of our unworthiness, not because there is some spark of goodness or worthiness in ourselves. We become worthy because His love.

  9. florida7sun says:

    I once heard a preacher proclaim that taking a scissor to cut any page of Scripture would result in the flow of our Savior’s blood. Of course, he was using a metaphor. However, I believe the Word was made flesh, so that abundant life could be realized through His shed blood. The Bible is all about Jesus, His character and His love for me. Love far more difficult to comprehend in the flesh, but made real in my spirit as I survey the Cross upon He died. He was born to testify to the truth (John 18:37), and His Comforter brings understanding as I apply the Word to my daily walk. The Word transforms me, and I can see more and more in His light… not the illumination offered by the world. Knowing with assurance He walks with me, I can rest with the knowledge that all is well with my soul.

  10. poohpity says:

    Even though I went to church sporadically when I was young and went through catechism there was that period of 21 years that was not spent acknowledging life had anything to do with God. So when I first opened the bible to read I had no idea about anything other than a great desire to read it so it was not filled with group thinking or denominational emphasis. It was just me and the bible, I thought. There was however a group of commentators on each page and I guess I listened to that as well.

    Keller’s approach while giving me something to think about it still seems a bit small for something that is far bigger. Yes now after knowing about the NT we can see Jesus in the stories of the OT but to only consider the person of Jesus, so much more is left out to me. If Jesus came to bring Glory to the Father how can Jesus be the only theme?

  11. remarutho says:

    I believe your question is a very good one, Poohpity!

    Let me think on it awhile…

    Blessings,
    Maru

  12. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thanks for the Keller video Mart. It took me back to Luke 24 and I was like the two that Jesus met on the road to Emmaus. It’s all about Jesus because He is our only link to a holy God, our on,y hope for a deposit of His Holy Spirit. Thanks!! Off to work with a renewed vigor!

  13. kingdomkid7 says:

    Correction: Only hope!!

  14. poohpity says:

    To me bacically the Bible is about God and basically Jesus never said it was about Him but it was about the love of the Father. From what I understand Jesus never brought glory to himself but only to the Father by providing us the Way to the Father. Jesus humbled Himself under the hand of the Father.

    With Abraham, Jesus was the ram caught in the thistles that was provided by God for a sacrifice.

    With Moses, all the temporary sacrifices implemented, the bulls, the lambs, the birds, the grain, the oil, the incense and the goats were in place until the New Covenant of the final sacrifice that would finish the old system of hundreds and thousands of sacrifices daily for our sin. It was finished the final, all atoning work of the Cross.

    Jesus spent time with His disciples saying that the sacrificial system in the OT which provided for our sin nature was fulfilled in Him. There is so much more in the OT about a God who did not give up pursuing His creation even though they turned their backs on Him, He went to the full extent of showing Love by laying down His deity and taking on human flesh to die as the final sacrifice to bring glory to God the Father.

    The prophets told about Jesus, the law was fulfilled with Jesus and the final penalty for or sin was Jesus but Jesus wanted to bring Glory to God on High.

  15. cherielyn says:

    Wow, pooh! What an insightful post! Thanks for sharing those thoughts. You are right on! Yes, in addition to providing for our salvation, Jesus mission was to glorify God.

    Mart, would have loved to see the video. Unfortunately, all social network sites, YouTube, etc. are blocked by my computer’s security.

  16. royalpalm says:

    The Bible is about God – it is the revelation of His thoughts and ways which we could never fathom because of the infinite distance that separates our thoughts and ways from Him. Isa. 55:8,9

    The Bible tells us of God as the Creator who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creating all visible and invisible things for His glory and purpose. He sustains them and everything exists according to His will. He is the God Almighty, Sovereign, King of kings, and Lord of lords who reigns in heaven.

    The Bible tells us about the eternal triune God – one God in three persons the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit and how each work s to achieve God’s purpose. Matt. 28:19 Gen. 1:26

    The Bible tells us of God’s character – holy, righteous, loving, merciful, gracious, just. Psalm 145: 8,9,17,18, 20,21
    The Bible talks about man who was created by God in His own image (with intellect, emotion and choice) so he can have a personal relationship with God. As the highest form of creation, man was given dominion over all the earth to manage it for God according to His purpose. Gen. 1:26,28 In Eden man trusted the lie of the created being satan instead of God, his Creator and satan became man’s master and ruled the earth. Luke 4:6; John 12:31 Death and sin also entered the world.

    God’s righteousness demands punishment for sin, and His righteousness also provided for the atonement of man’s sin. Rom. 3:22,23,24,25,26. Jesus, God the Son, without sin, voluntarily came as a man to satisfy God’s righteousness by shedding His blood on the cross Heb. 10:5,6,7,8,9,10.. His resurrection and ascension to heaven and position at the right hand of the Father signified that His sacrifice met God’s righteous demand. Man’s faith in Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient to pay for our own sins. It also breaks the power of sin and death and restores our personal relationship with God. Jesus the Saviour of the world, is the only mediator between God and man.

    God’s original plan of the first Adam ruling the earth was thwarted by Satan but God reinstated His own Son, Jesus, the second Adam as the King of kings and Lord of lords to rule the earth. He established His kingdom during His first coming Matt. 3:1, Mark 1:14,15 and when He went to heaven sent the Holy Spirit to continue His work… At the end of the age, Jesus will come to earth and rule for 1000 years in David’s throne. God’s kingdom will be composed of those who acknowledge their sin before God and who believe in Jesus and what He has done to pay for their sins. John 1:12 God calls these believers His children and they will be transformed into the likeness of His Son and they will rule with Him in His kingdom. Rev. 20:6

    Each believer, indwelt by the Holy Spirit power and presence is given the job of PROCLAIMING the GOOD NEWS of Jesus’ sacrifice and the reestablishment of His kingdom on earth.Luke 11:2 People need to know that Satan has been defeated. There is a new King! John 17:18 Matt. 28:18,19,20
    The Old Testament is a story of the beginnings. The nation of Israel was chosen by God to be His special people, an instrument for the coming Savior. God instituted laws and a way of worship and established government to show His holy character. Jesus’ earthly family is from this nation and the writers of God’s word are Jews, except Luke. Jesus’ ministry and His glorious kingdom had been foretold through types, shadows, prophecies, etc. Isa. 53, Isa. 9:7,6 Isa. 11:1-10

    The New Testament is about Jesus, God the Son who came to fulfill all that His Father wanted Him to do. It is also about the church, His believers who belong to His kingdom and the work that they need to do until He comes back to reign. Acts 1:10,11, Matt 24:29,30,31

    In view of the above, to say that the Bible is about Jesus is not quite completely true. The Bible is about GOD. Isa. 40:18, 25, 26 Roman 11: 34, 35, 36.

  17. poohpity says:

    In answer to your question of “What opens the Bible?” I would say my fingers, lol!! I just had to say that. ;-)

  18. davids says:

    I love it when Mart posts a new message. It is like a new loaf of bread. Not the white bread that you buy in the US, but the kind we buy in a bakery in Europe. The first slices are wonderful, but a couple of days later the slices are getting hard and dry.

    The first comments here are like those first slices. Bill, I always appreciate your comments.

    The video by Keller was inspired. It turned typology on its head. It reminded me of the WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) bracelets.

    Instead of depicting Old Testament persons as weaker examples Christ, it leaves them as humans that were weak and flawed, and contrasts them with the example of Christ. This makes the parallels between the Old and New Testaments all the more powerful. Yes, we have the “types” of the Old Testament, but what would Jesus have done?

    And what should we do? Only follow the ewample of loving action and forgiveness.

  19. poorinspirit says:

    I really appreciated how that brief informative video displayed some of the many examples in The Word of God found in the Old Testament, which point to Jesus Christ John 5:39, The Word of God Who Became Flesh John 1:14; The Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world John 1:29.

    What is the Bible basically about? Is it about us and what we are supposed to do? Or is it, first and foremost, about Jesus and what he has done for us?

    I’m in awe of how The Holy Bible supernaturally describes itself 2 Peter 1:21.

    I really enjoy these group discussions. Hope you all have a good day!

    Your Friend In Christ,
    poorinspirit

    The Holy Written Word of God Reveals to us Who The Triune God Is and What He: Has Done, Is Doing and Will Do Through God The Son, The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Holy Bible also reveals who we, human beings, are and how we came into being; and The Holy Bible reveals to us the human dilemma of our sinful condition and our desperate need for God to save us. The Holy Bible Reveals God’s Love for us and His One Only Solution for us to be Saved from our human dilemma of sin; and that solution Is The Finished Work of our Resurrected Saviour Jesus Christ’s substitutionary Death on The Cross John 3:16.

  20. poorinspirit says:

    I really appreciated how that brief informative video displayed some of the many examples in The Word of God found in the Old Testament, which point to Jesus Christ John 5:39, The Word of God Who Became Flesh John 1:14; The Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world John 1:29.

    What is the Bible basically about? Is it about us and what we are supposed to do? Or is it, first and foremost, about Jesus and what he has done for us?

    I’m in awe of how The Holy Bible supernaturally describes itself 2 Peter 1:21.

    The Holy Written Word of God Reveals to us Who The Triune God Is and What He: Has Done, Is Doing and Will Do Through God The Son, The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Holy Bible also reveals who we, human beings, are and how we came into being; and The Holy Bible reveals to us the human dilemma of our sinful condition and our desperate need for God to save us. The Holy Bible Reveals God’s Love for us and His One Only Solution for us to be Saved from our human dilemma of sin; and that solution Is The Finished Work of our Resurrected Saviour Jesus Christ’s Substitutionary Death on The Cross on our behalf John 3:16.

    I really enjoy these group discussions. Hope you all have a good day!

    Your Friend In Christ,
    poorinspirit

  21. Bill says:

    @David, thanks for the compliment. The same to you. Comparing Mart’s posts to bread (European bread at that) was a vivid simile.

    @pooh, at 10:59 you wrote: “If Jesus came to bring Glory to the Father how can Jesus be the only theme?”

    I think the answer to that question is also answered by the Bible. Jesus is the Word made flesh. In the beginning was the Word. Jesus is the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.

    Many years ago, Christian singer/songwriter Michael Card wrote a song called “The Final Word.” Some of the lyrics were:

    “When the Father’s wisdom wanted to communicate His love,
    He spoke it one final perfect Word

    He spoke the incarnation and then so was born the Son
    His final word was Jesus,
    He needed no other one”

    I realize a musician is not God. His words are not Scripture. But Michael Card was (and still is) famous for infusing so much Scripture and the Spirit in his songs. I think he captured the beauty of the Bible’s message with “The Final Word.”

    I don’t think there’s any higher, more glorious, more precious person than Jesus. He is the ultimate man, the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate Word made flesh. I seriously don’t think God needs any other person, place, or thing to bring glory to Himself. Jesus is it. It gets no better than that.

    Royalpalm (at 4:14) wrote: “…to say that the Bible is about Jesus is not quite completely true. The Bible is about GOD.”

    I believe the entire sweep of the Bible, from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22, is the story of Jesus. Yes, humanity is in the story. Nature and animals are in the story. But the “story” is about God’s son saving a lost world. I don’t believe we’re the focus of the Bible. I believe Jesus is the focus of the Bible.

    Screenwriters craft movies logically and methodically, following a very rigid formula. For example, roughly 5-15 minutes or so into a movie there’s what’s called an inciting incident. The inciting incident is the reason everything happens in the movie. It sets the movie in motion.

    Example: the movie “Some Like It Hot,” starring Tony Curtis, Jack Lemmon, and Marilyn Monroe. The inciting incident is when the two musicians witness the shooting in the parking garage. That sets the movie in motion. Without that scene, there is no movie.

    Example: “No Country For Old Men.” The inciting incident comes at the 13:07 mark. Finding the money and deciding to take it sets the entire movie in motion. If James Brolin’s character hadn’t done that, none of what follows would have happened.

    Example: “Casablanca.” The inciting incident comes when Victor Laszlo and Ilsa walk into Rick’s bar. At that point, Rick’s world turns upside down. Some people think the inciting incident of Casablanca occurs when Ugarte gives Rick the letters of transit. But I disagree. Rick could have sat on those letters forever. Nothing compelled him to do anything with them until Laszlo and Ilsa walk into Rick’s bar. That’s when things get moving. (Even if he hadn’t had the letters of transit, Rick’s world was turned upside down at that point and *something* would have happened after they entered Rick’s Cafe.)

    Example: “The Sixth Sense.” In the first five minutes of the film, Malcom (Bruce Willis) is confronted in his home by a former patient, who shoots him in the stomach. Without that gunshot, the rest of the movie would not have occurred.

    Here’s my point. Jesus is the inciting incident of the Bible. Without Jesus, there would be no Bible. There would be no Christianity. There would be no salvation, no redemption. Remove the inciting incident and the “movie” of the Bible evaporates. Worse, it becomes just another long, boring book like “War And Peace.”

    Obviously, this is just my two cents worth. And I realize the metaphor isn’t precise. And I certainly don’t mean to trivialize Jesus, the Bible, or War And Peace, for that matter. It’s merely my opinion.

    By the way, David wrote: “And what should we do? Only follow the example of loving action and forgiveness.”

    I think that’s a perfect way to describe the Gospel: Follow Jesus, demonstrate love and forgiveness.

    The comments today have been magnificent. Really inspiring. Thank you, everyone!

  22. Bill says:

    Incidentally, Tim Keller said this:

    “I would urge not just families with young children to get this book, but every Christian–from pew warmers, to ministry leaders, seminarians and even theologians! Sally Lloyd-Jones has captured the heart of what it means to find Christ in all the scriptures, and has made clear even to little children that all God’s revelation has been about Jesus from the beginning–a truth not all that commonly recognized even among the very learned.”

    DR TIMOTHY KELLER, REDEEMER, NYC

    He’s speaking of The Jesus Storybook Bible by Sally Lloyd-Jones.

    The JSB is ostensibly for kids. But adults are buying it by the caseload because they say it’s the most remarkable theology book written in ages.

    The back cover copy for the JSB says,

    “From Noah to Moses to King David, every story whispers his name. Jesus is like the missing piece in a puzzle — the piece that makes all the other pieces fit together. Beautifully written and illustrated, The Jesus Storybook Bible invites children to discover for themselves that Jesus is at the center of God’s great story of salvation…”

    So if you want to know what Tim Keller’s talking about, and why he believes Jesus is what the Bible is all about, pick up a copy of The Jesus Storybook Bible. You can find it in every book store.

  23. royalpalm says:

    Hello, Bill,
    Jesus as God the Son always glorified God the Father. The things He did were in complete obedience to the Father. He opened the way to the Father so that man can be restored in his relationship to God. He is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. He reinstated God’s kingdom on earth. He defeated Satan through His death and resurrection. These He did to glorify His Father because man needed to be freed from the bondage of Satan so they can worship and glorify God. God the Holy Spirit has been given to each believer to continue the work of Jesus so people can be freed from Satan. He is my Lord and Savior.

    Nevertheless, Jesus’ teachings and the rest of the writers of the Bible talks about God, not just Jesus.

  24. Bill says:

    Two quick things, Royalpalm:

    1. I didn’t mean to imply the Bible doesn’t talk about God. The Bible does. My point — and Tim Keller’s point — is that the Bible is *about* Jesus. It’s His book, His story.

    2. This may be splitting hairs, but Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are the same person. One in three. Three separate but equal persons. So nobody is trying to say one person of the Godhead is higher or greater or more so than the other.

    One last comment: I may be totally wrong in what I wrote. It’s just my opinion. I’m not married to my comments. You may be right. Maybe the Bible is not just about Jesus. Maybe the book doesn’t — as Tim Keller says — point to Jesus at every turn. It’s only Keller’s opinion, too.

    I’ll give the matter more thought.

    Thanks for commenting!

  25. royalpalm says:

    Bill, I read you… and I agree with your item 2.

    From your earlier post you said,… “But the “story” is about God’s son saving a lost world”

    IMHO, the real “story” is God sending His Son to save a lost world.

    P.S. I respect all people’s opinions including Tim Keller’s, but God Himself will teach us the truth if we desire it with all our heart and commit ourselves to Him.

  26. foreverblessed says:

    Are you up at night Royalpalm? It is 11 in the morning here in europe.
    I was going to say something similar:
    If we see Jesus then we see the Father, if we live with Jesus then we live with the Father.
    The more we obey what Jesus tells us, the more He will reveal to us.

    But I grew up in a church which did not want too much “Jesus stuff”.
    Living in faith in Jesus, that was considered just too easy, we had to work ourselves. And not seeing Jesus in everything in the bible, made it different, more legalistic. There is no way to God outside Jesus. So I think it is essential that we see Jesus in everything, because only in Jesus is the doorway to God.
    Colossians 2:13-14, 15-16,17-18,19-20
    If it pleased God to have all fulness dwell in Jesus, why would we say that God is more then Jesus?
    Be aware of leaving Jesus out, when approaching God.

  27. foreverblessed says:

    I meant to give the verses in Colossians 1:13-14,15-16,17-18,19-20.
    But coincidently Col 2:17 sums it all up:
    The reality is found in Christ,
    the substance belongs to Christ.

  28. Mart De Haan says:

    Good discussion. As you are catching, the idea is not that the Bible is only about Jesus, but that by telling the story of Jesus, we get a chance to know the One who reveals his Father, sends his Spirit into those who believe in him, and, in the end, meets the deepest needs of our hearts and eternity.

    For those who cannnot access internet I’ve typed out a rough transcript of Keller’s thoughts…

    Tim Keller: Redeemer Presbyterian Church New York City

    Quote of Keller’s presentation begins with this silent quote from Scripture:

    And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27

    Then it is followed by this:

    Keller Quote:

    “What is the Bible really about?

    Is the Bible basically about me and what I must do, or is it basically about Jesus and what he has done for us?

    When you read in Luke and Acts how Jesus in those 40 days got his disciples together for those 40 days before he ascended, what was he doing?

    He was basically saying the Old Testament is about me.

    He says the reason you didn’t understand what I was about is that you didn’t realize that everything in the prophets, the Psalms, and the Law was pointing to me.

    Do you believe the bible is basically about you, or basically about him?

    Is David and Goliath basically about you and how you can be like David and Goliath, or is it basically about him, the only one who took on the only giant who can really kill us. And so his victory is imputed to us.

    Who is it really about? That’s the fundamental question.

    And when that happens then we start to read the Bible anew.

    Jesus is true and better Adam who passed the test in the garden, his garden, a much tougher garden. And his obedience is imputed to us.

    Jesus is the true and better Abel, who though innocently slain has blood that cries out not for our condemnation, but for our good.

    Jesus is the true and better Abraham who answered the call of God to leave all that was comfortable and familiar and to go into the world—into the void, not knowing whither he went.

    Jesus is the true and better Isaac who was not just offered up by his father on the mount, but was truly sacrificed for us all while God said to Abraham now I know that you love me because you did not withhold your son, your only son whom you love from me. And now we at the foot of the cross can say to God now we know that you loved me because you did not withhold your son, your only son whom you love, from me.

    Jesus is the true and better Jacob who wrestled and took the blow of justice which we deserve so that we only received the wounds of grace that wake us up in discipline.

    Jesus is the true and better Joseph who is at the right hand of the king and forgives those who betrayed and sold him and uses his power to save them.

    Jesus is the true and better Moses who stands in the gap between the people and the Lord, who mediates a new covenant.

    Jesus is the true and better rock of Moses who struck with the rod of God’s justice now gives us water in the desert.

    Jesus is the true and better Job. He is the truly innocent sufferer who then intercedes for and saves his friends.

    Jesus is the true and better David whose victory becomes his people’s victory even though they never lifted a stone to accomplish it themselves.

    Jesus is the true and better Esther who didn’t just risk losing an earthly palace but lost the ultimate heavenly one, who didn’t just risk his life but gave his life who didn’t just say if I perish but when I perish I’ll perish for them to save my people.

    Jesus is the true and better Jonah who was cast out into the storm so that we could be brought in.

    He’s the real Passover lamb.

    He’s the true temple, the true priest, the true king, the true sacrifice, the true lamb, the true light, the true bread.

    The Bible is not about you.

    It is primarily about Jesus. End of Quote

    Additional thought. Again It’s my take that we need to keep in mind the intent of the above is not that the Bible is only about Jesus– but “above all else” and “for all else” and “for all of us” it is about Jesus, the only mediator between God and us.

  29. SFDBWV says:

    Thinking about the topic I am led to look at not so much “what” but *why* open the Bible.

    Certainly as Mart has expressed in his comments many of us start off having preconceived ideas about the Bible depending upon how we were introduced to it. The nature of which perpetuates those ideas in the form of *group* thinking, sometimes becoming generational.

    However what causes us to challenge group thinking?

    Is it some book or sermon that someone has written or given that attracts our attention by agreeing with our ( ? ); is it disillusionment, curiosity, encouragement, or some unidentifiable nagging in our spirit?

    Which brings me to ask, what is the purpose of opening the Bible and reading any part of it?

    If we were to go to a remote jungle community and present the Gospel, would we require a Bible first or the message that it brings?

    What then is the purpose of the Bible?

    When Jesus gave us the *Great Commission* it wasn’t to explain who the Bible is all about, but rather offer forgiveness to all of mankind in the person who is identified in the Bible as being the Messiah/Christ.

    So what then is most important, the message or explaining who sends the message?

    What then is the purpose of the message if not to *save* man.

    What then is more important, saving man, or knowing who saves him?

    Which do you think is most important to God?

    Steve

  30. cherielyn says:

    Mart,

    Thank you, so much, for the transcript of Tim Keller’s presentation (sermon). It sheds a whole new light on my understanding of the OT. I knew about the second (better) Adam and about the correlation between Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his only son, Issac, with God being willing to sacrifice His Only Son. However, I never thought about all the other characters that Jesus was “the better of.”

    I will be gone a good part of the day, but will delve into this deeper and make a further response later.

    Thank you, so much, for taking the time to post the transcript.

  31. SFDBWV says:

    All of the many Messianic Jew’s that I have read or listened to have to explain Jesus as the Messiah to other *Orthodox* Jew’s from the Old Testament or Torah. I would as it where have to present the *credentials* of Jesus of Nazareth as being the Messiah.

    As a *Gentile* pre beliefs are not necessarily tied to faith first in the OT. In fact it is the lore and lure of the world that has to be overcome in order to present a *Savior* from it.

    To an unbelieving world something very different and special has to be provided to them in order for them to be interested in opening up a Bible and reading it.

    Many times the first argument you hear from unbelievers is the idea that we *Christians* always refer to the Bible in *proving* our point. To them that *proves* nothing except for our faith in what it says.

    However if we are about proving something to other believers, then we have an audience that can relate to Biblical discussion.

    Group thinking here in this blog clearly disagrees with much of what “Confeticat” has to say concerning Christ. So showing someone such as he that the whole of Scripture from beginning to end is about Jesus being Messiah and the perfect example of being everything man isn’t, may or may not shed new light to him in an effort to conform him to the groups thinking.

    Which dominates group thinking, the unyielding loudest voices or the best evidences?

    Who is it that decides which is a *Cult* amongst religious orders, the individual or the *group*?

    Who leads the *group* and what are their credentials?

    Caution in challenging old beliefs as well as the motives behind them. I can’t deny that the whole of Scripture is about Jesus, and Keller isn’t the first speaker or author to present that concept.

    So I must ask Keller or others if this *revelation* is new to them, how does it change their understanding of Scripture or their responsibility as a believer?

    For me, it is not a new concept at all, but an old one and changes nothing in how I see Scripture. Yes I know I am a failure as a man and that Jesus is not, yes I know that I can never achieve living as He did, but also know it is His example that I follow, and following Jesus makes me a *Christian* to the eyes of the world.

    The eyes of the world then watch me in order to *see* Christ and if they like what they see then I can introduce them to what it is I have they don’t and present to them the Gospel as well as His Book.

    Steve

  32. phpatato says:

    Steve you asked –

    “So what then is most important, the message or explaining who sends the message?

    What then is the purpose of the message if not to *save* man.

    What then is more important, saving man, or knowing who saves him?

    Which do you think is most important to God?”

    To me, both. One is just as important as the other. Without knowing the message for ourselves, without knowing who gave it and why, how can we effectively pass that message on.

    Without knowing it first-hand, without experiencing it for ourselves, how can we effectively share that message with others.

    Without knowing the basis, without knowing the foundation of the WHO and the WHY, we become the blind leading the blind.

    God wants the messenger to know what His simple message is so that once he spreads and shares what it is all about, He can do the saving work once the “message” has been planted.

    One has to know the Message before giving the message. We have to inform ourselves before we inform others, to equip ourselves to know how to tell others where and how they can equip themselves.

    And we get that directly – by reading, memorizing and binding to our hearts – from the Source’s mouth…The Holy Bible, cover to cover.

    I hope I took what you were saying in the right direction. I’ve only had one coffee this morning so that means I have only one eye open. :-)

  33. SFDBWV says:

    Good morning Pat, i am about to enter my next phase of Matts exercises and move along to his shower and will be away from the computer for quite a while.

    But wanted to say hello and say you have done well in looking into my questions meant to do just that make us look and think.

    I have about drained the coffee pot, but seems we had some together after all.

    Love
    Steve

  34. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All –

    Pooh, you asked, “If Jesus came to bring Glory to the Father how can Jesus be the only theme?”
    It seems to me we must honor Mart’s question, “What Opens the Bible?” as well.

    One either reads the Bible, or one does not. For those who do not know how to read, it might be said, “One either listens to the words of the Bible or not.” That is not all. One either reads/hears the Bible with hope and faith in what it says, or not. Teachers much more knowledgeable and mature than I often say to pray to God to send the Holy Spirit to guide our minds and hearts as we read or hear – that we may understand and appropriate the truth of it at the time we take it in. We are counseled to ask for and to read the Bible with faith.

    Jesus told his enemies, the leaders of the church of the day (the Temple): “Now He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him.” (Luke 20:38) Jesus indicates that the patriarchs are alive. (Luke 20:37)

    By the working of the Father’s perfect will – through the presence of the Holy Spirit – Jesus, who was dead flesh, was raised not to restored life, but to the absolute, eternal glorious life of God. The apostle Paul proclaims the power of Jesus Christ before and after the ascension, and we may accept it that he did so well and accurately. He wrote to Timothy:
    “It is a trustworthy statement:
    For if we died with Him (Jesus Christ), we shall also live with him;
    If we endure, we shall also reign with Him;
    If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
    If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.”
    (2 Timothy 2:11, 12, 13)

    The risen and enthroned Son of God, Jesus Christ, is the Ruler of the universe. He reigns with the Father and with the Holy Spirit. He brings life, abundant life, to the entire race of humankind — any and all who believe in Him. That is how I see it.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  35. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    “What Opens the Bible?”

    Shouldn’t that read “Who Opens the Bible”

    God actually Opens the Bible!

    “In the beginning GOD created ……”
    This suggests God existed before the beginning.
    Also, as I am created in Gods Image, I to Open the Bible.
    But I have a choice, to paraphrase Shakespeare, To Open or not to Open the Bible. Literally “to be or not to be”
    But when I do Open the Bible it is God who Opens it (up) to me by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    No matter how you look at it The Bible is about God… Father, Son & Holy Spirit and it is about me, because it is written to and for me, for my edification, wealth, blessing and sheer pleasure, so that my life may be pleasing to Him!

    Bob

  36. poohpity says:

    The minute someones something like, “you didn’t realize that “EVERYTHING” in the prophets, the Psalms, and the Law was pointing to me.” gives me pause to think there be some truth in what is to follow but I would have to ask myself is “everything” about Jesus? After reading the Bible I would have to answer no, there is so much more. So is this person creditable in his further thoughts well maybe some of it. Jesus seems to be a thread woven through out OT scripture as we have talked before like Gen 3:12; Psalms 22:1-22;Psalms 110:1,2,4; Isaiah 53:1-12; Jeremiah 23:5,6; Ezek34:23; Mal 3:1, 4:2,5. Everything no, the most important part,yes because without Him we would not be able to even understand any of it.

    God is the “I AM” who wanted us to depend and rely on Him for everything like David did in part of His life as did others who loved Him. Did they “always” trust and depend on Him like Abraham, no. We have all taken matters into our own hands and out of God’s? Did God know we would do this, yes. Did God provide a way because He has always wanted a relationship with us, yes. The God of all creation wants a relationship with me/us and He made a way and the Bible tells that story.

  37. poohpity says:

    That should have been Gen 3:15

  38. royalpalm says:

    Hello Mart and BTA friends,
    Thanks for all your thoughts and enabling me to put my thoughts on this topic as well…forever blessed thanks for your point.

    I believe everyone should know and comprehend the holiness and majesty of God before he can truly understand the magnitude and necessity of Jesus’ sacrifice. These are revealed in the OT.

    Because of lack of knowledge of God’s holiness and righteous demands some people “accept” Jesus as their Savior without repentance. Their lives are bad witnesses for Christ because they are still living in their sin. Repentance is acknowledging that I have sinned against a holy God(work of the Holy Spirit); God’s grace led me to Jesus the spotless Lamb who shed His blood. The Holy Spirit convinced me of the righteousness of Jesus. My faith in Jesus enabled me to receive Jesus’ righteousness and I am saved from the power of Satan, sin and death, and I can approach God with Jesus’ righteousness. Now I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit so I can live a life pleasing to God.

    The main point in my post is for everyone to see the full picture of God rather than narrowing it down to Jesus. Maybe it is just perspective. Some see Jesus as the main point, I see an encompassing scope: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit working together towards a common goal.

    Regarding Tim Keller’s video, it was well done. Of course, Jesus as God is true and better than anybody you would compare Him with. The book of Hebrews speaks also of these. God laid the foundation in the OT so the Jews will recognize Him when He arrived. I till cry when I read John 1:11,12,13.

    I hope more people will read the Old Testament so they can truly appreciate and understand the reality of all that happened in the New Testament. Jesus used this in Luke 24:27 as Tim Keller pointed out. Peter and Paul also used these truths in convincing the first Christians who were Jews. Acts 2: 29-39, Acts 3:22-26; Acts 13:15-41. Personally, my understanding of OT also led me to always kneel before my God my Maker, my Lord and Savior and my Comforter and Guide in love, worship, praise and thanksgiving. Psalm 103:1, Psalm 150:1,2,3,4,5,6

  39. royalpalm says:

    Sorry, it should be, “I still cry when I read John 1:10,11,12,13 esp.John 1:10

  40. poorinspirit says:

    One thought that comes to my mind, as I inquire unto The Lord concerning Mart’s title of this blog ” What Opens the Bible ” is: God’s Loving, Merciful Grace;Titus 2:11.

    There is no good thing in me alone that drew me to acknowledge or appreciate God The Almighty Creator.

    There is no good thing in me alone that drew me to acknowledge or appreciate God teaching me right from wrong.

    There is no good thing in me alone that drew me to acknowledge or appreciate The Good News about God’s only begotton Son, Jesus Christ, Who Is my Saviour and Lord.

    There is no good thing in me alone that draws me to have a hunger for The Bread of Life, Jesus, or to have an extreme thirst for the Streams of Living Water He Gives.

    But Praise God for His Amazing, Loving, Merciful Grace that Drew me to His Only Begotten Son, The Lord Jesus Christ, The Lord and Saviour of my soul; through Whom I have continual access to God’s Throne of Grace; Hebrews 4:16.

    Thank you Holy, Heavenly Father for Your Amazing Enabling Grace that Gives me the desire and abitity to open The Holy Bible, The Holy Written Word of God. It is through my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, The Word of God Who Became Flesh I pray unto Thee amen.

  41. davids says:

    This has been such an open and instructive discussion. Thanks to all, and blessings.

    Generations after our Lord gave up His life, during the fastest growth of the faith, there was no Bible. The printed word was hard to come by, and any way most could not read. It was only around 1500 that Bibles and literacy became widespread.

    The Word spread from mouth to ear, and by living action. The Gentiles knew nothing of the Old Testament faith. So my feeling is that the story of Father’s act of offering redemption, and the Son’s willingness to fulfill it are merely two sides of the same coin. That coin is the mesage of the Gospel.

  42. davids says:

    poorinspirit, thank you for your uplifting witness.

    I am afraid that my last post might have given the impression that I devalue the Bible as a means of edification, meditation, and discerning the truth.

    I do not. Every Christian ought to seek it out for wisdom. I only wanted to make a point that the message of the Gospel is for me the first point to communicate to others.

  43. davids says:

    Steve, I always try to read your posts carefully. You seem to point to the tension raised in Mart’s post between Groupthink and shared belief.

    The great Wikipedia says, “Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative ideas or viewpoints.”

    This really gives me pause for thought. Although we would like to think that the Bible provides the clarity to allow us to resolve all issues, it does not, as evidenced even on the blog.

    It seems to me that the only deterence to Groupthink is the position, “maybe I don’t know all the answers.”

  44. bubbles says:

    In reading the Bible and learning about who God is and how He is, and if we are His, isn’t it not only about Him but also showing us how we can live a life that honors Him? Isn’t that the sole meaning of our lives?
    What about Proverbs. That book tells us how to live godly lives, lives of peace, and how to relate to others. That’s the wisdom of God. To me, it has to be both: showing who God is and showing us how to live for God once we are His.If the Bible did not show us how to live, there would be nothing else that could. His Word is above all others. Ps. 19 tells us his law is perfect, sure, makes the simple wise. . . Many times it points out sin in our lives, and convicts us so we can live a godly life.

    I don’t understand the post.

  45. poohpity says:

    I do not find that there are any problems with presenting alternative ideas especially related to a critical evaluation of anything. I find issues when folks present ideas without having read something and saying they have, normally they will present ideas on the backs of others without any thoughts of their own. How can you give a book report without reading the book unless you allow another to think for you.

  46. poohpity says:

    bubbles, it sounds like you understand it to me. :-) We posted at the same time, shows to go ya don’t it.

  47. bubbles says:

    But I don’t understand the post.

  48. poorinspirit says:

    Hi davids and phpatato,

    Your words of encouragement are greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    This is my third day at BTA and I’m so very Blessed to see the like minded Believers in The Body of Christ here: in loving Christian fellowship with one another, encouraging one another, each one searching the scriptures diligently and feeling free to share what’s on one’s heart;and with God’s Help, in the pursuit of rightly dividing The Word of Truth, 2 Timothy 2:15; in The Spirit of Christ’s Love.

    I Thank God for you all!

  49. phpatato says:

    Good Evening Poorinspirit

    May I say that your words were an encouragement to me.

    Thank You! and Welcome to our humble abode. May you enjoy your stay as much as I enjoy mine. Mart is a wonderful host and our brothers and sisters in Christ, well, I have a hug for each one of them once we meet in heaven!

  50. SFDBWV says:

    Last evening at 8pm Matthew, Glenna and I watched the premiere TV show “The Great American Bible Challenge” with Jeff Foxworthy. It is on Game Show Network.

    I was blown away, this is a great little contest, all of the contestants are going for monies for their particular charities.

    The winner last evening has a food pantry in her neighborhood in a large American city. Each group’s charitable organizations are showcased and to top it off the Salvation Army has ad spots throughout the show.

    The contestants were also shown praying together as well giving our Lord the glory.

    Wow, I can only imagine how many *interested* people may watch this and get more *interested*

    It may be a stretch but in this case what opened the Bible is a game show on TV, for our enjoyment and I hope to get people to look in their Bibles or get one.

    Steve

  51. SFDBWV says:

    Sorry I neglected to say that the game is about Bible knowledge; who ever answers accurately what the Bible actually says from the format of questions win.

    Steve

  52. confeticat says:

    What opens the Phone Book? What is the Phone Book basically about? Is it about us and the calls we are supposed to make? Or is it about phone numbers and what they do for us?

    What is the purpose of the Phone Book without people? Yes, the Phone Book is not about me at all. It’s about phone numbers. 891-2856; 667-8074; 595-2358. Especially meaningful to me is 231-4729. But it was written for me! AT&T loves me! I have become worthy! Amen!

    And the Yellow Pages! Ruby Tuesday is the better Burger King. The better Mickey D. The better Wendy’s. The better Chick-Fil-A. The better Long John Silver. Of course he’s not the best, just better, but what an inspiring sermon that was!

    But how can phone numbers be the only theme? To say the Phone Book is about phone numbers is not quite completely true. It is about addresses. I am not narrowing the phone numbers, the addresses actually glorify the phone numbers. 317 Honey Locust Drive; 50 Woodpecker Walk; 893 Sugarloaf Road.

    Wow! What an insightful point! The Phone Book is Triune – names, addresses, phone numbers each working to achieve AT&T’s purpose. I teach the Phone Book – we need Directory Assistance. The Wholly Written Phone Book Reveals to us who AT&T is and What He Has Done, Is Doing and Will Do through a Name, Address and Phone Number. It also reveals the dilemma of our human condition – how far we can call from our calling zone. It is the Finished Work of our Resurrected AT&T Phone Company. I really enjoy these group discussions.

    Thanks for the compliment. Same to you. The comments today have been magnificent. Really inspiring. Be aware of leaving the phone numbers out.

    Which is more important – knowing the number first-hand or actually calling it? I hope more people will read the Yellow Pages so they will understand the reality of the White Pages. Personally, my understanding of the Yellow Pages also led me to kneel before my Maker, my Lord and Saver, my Comforter and Guide to all this information. I still cry when I read 248-3012.

    Praise AT&T for his Amazing, Loving, Merciful Grace that Gives me the desire and ability to open the Holy Phone Book, the Holy Written Word of AT&T. I pray unto thee, Amen.

    I am afraid that my last post may have given the impression that I devalue the Phone Book as a means of edification, meditation, and discerning the truth. I do not. I only wanted to make a point that the message of Long Distance is for me the first point to communicate to them.

    How can you give a book report without reading the book. Someone doesn’t understand this post. Too bad.

    Get a cell phone.

  53. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Confeticat,

    You may think you are making fun and mocking us but in fact you are mocking God.

    Perhaps if you did read the Bible you would understand that God Himself was mocked, spat upon and put to death because He loved us so much.

    If you loved Him, as you sometimes say you do, then you would not want to mock Him but want to Glorify His Name!

    I suspect AT&T appreciate the advert.

    Bob

  54. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    But even the great AT&T do not mock God!

  55. confeticat says:

    Well, BloodyBullyBob has shown up. You know very well who I was mocking and it wasn’t God. It was a group that had Jesus crucified.

  56. SFDBWV says:

    Davids I especially appreciate yours and all the others who live outside of the USA thoughts and perspectives, as here in the USA we get isolated a great deal from the global view of many things.

    When I think along the lines of *group thinking* I am brought to many various ideas that create them.

    It is hard for me to visualize and truly imagine the earliest gatherings of believers. Absolutely they had very little to *hold* onto except the few earliest churches who may have heard Paul or Peter for themselves or had the letters that each had written concerning matters of belief and faith.

    These earliest believers brought their children with them as they learned of this Jesus of Nazareth who He is and what He offers. These children believed for the same reasons adults all over the world do. Someone they trusted, trusted Jesus and so showed them the way, but also once they heard about Him and received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, their own spirits became in touch with God and so accepted the simple truth of what Jesus offers, His credentials being a supernatural faith that they accepted without any proof.

    Living in the age of *enlightenment* and may I say *privilege*, we are given more evidences to support our beliefs, but at a price of perhaps less dependence on the Holy Spirit and more reliance on our intellect, our confidence being the agreement of others.

    Maybe this is one reason the Quakers thought no one should speak, at gathering.

    Steve

  57. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    confeticat,

    There are many writings in this world:
    The Complete Works of Shakespeare,
    Charles dickens,
    Mark Twain,
    and many more that, although I don’t fully understand every meaning, I certainly would not mock them and I know they are “great” works of art.
    The Bible is in a different league altogether.
    It is the written Word of God, Jesus on Paper if you like, and as such it is far Greater than any mere human scribbling.
    You either love it or you hate it but you cannot remain indifferent to it.
    When OPENED and spoken and applied it has the POWER to change lives, divide between flesh, soul and spirit, restore the ill and broken hearted to full health and bring reconciliation between God & Man.

    I do not fully understand the Bible either, but I know the author and He loves to tell me all about it and reveal exactly what it all means on a daily basis as I sit with Him.
    Sit with Him and He will show you to.

    Bob

  58. confeticat says:

    I’m not mocking the Bible either.

  59. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Then what on Earth are you doing?

  60. confeticat says:

    That is your group. Just as you said it. You don’t want to learn anything because you think you already know it all. I could take you all to the State Fair and they’d put ribbons on you and you’d grin from ear to ear.

  61. Bill says:

    @Bob, I think your posts are marvelously lucid and insightful. I always enjoy reading them.

    Your question to confeticat (“Then what on Earth are you doing?”) I don’t believe can be answered. I don’t even think s/he knows. It appears s/he is merely stirring the waters

    @Steve, I especially enjoyed your comments (8:38am) this morning. I agree with you. I always enjoy reading comments from non-Americas. I have much to learn in life, and sometime a fresh perspective helps. I think the Quakers were onto something. Mennonites and Amish, too. I enjoy learning from other traditions.

    Thank you, everyone, for your continued heartfelt and insightful comments. I appreciate your sincere commitment to His Word…and expressing it with clarity.

  62. Bill says:

    @confeticat, I don’t know why you have to be so contentious and disrespectful to others here. I see, perhaps, 90% of the comments made here. I don’t recall reading others treating you in kind. In fact, we’ve made it known (repeatedly) that not only are you welcome here, but your comments and opinions are, too. Proper protocol, though, calls for everyone to treat each other fairly and with respect.

    I’m glad you’re here. You offer a very different perspective on virtually every topic. But it would help us understand you better if you wrote with less sarcasm and more love. Remember the old saying: A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. (That’s the gospel according to Mary Poppins.)

  63. confeticat says:

    Filibuster Bill, you’re a little short this morning. Oh, to see ourselves as others see us. Yes, the Quakers were definately onto something.

  64. confeticat says:

    Funny you don’t recall others treating me in kind, because I seem to recall it very well. Guess it depends which side of the knife one is on.

  65. poohpity says:

    I have to agree people on here have not been kind to you and the opposite is also true. Glad you read the phone book but besides, phone #’s, addresses and names there are advertisements about products/companies that have never been tried before with descriptions and without those there may not be a phone book.

    There are more than a few that do book reports on the books they have not finished reading yet and say they have, ask any college student or any Christian for that matter. That is to the loss of the reader not the writer.

  66. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    It seems to me some of the ways of reading the Bible that you list, Mart, are still exerting an influence on the life of world-wide Christianity. There are groups who use Scripture in ways that work at cross-purposes with the kingdom of Jesus Christ.

    The following is an abbreviation of the paragraph of your post that presented the idea of group-think:

    (I hope I have done your writing justice)

    “Group think meant that some of us learned to read the Bible as:
    a book of absolute truths
    a handbook for social action
    ancient tradition that needs to be reinterpreted through the enlightened eyes of science
    a good book that finds its highest ground in the golden rule
    a spiritual horoscope of daily devotional impressions, hopes, and dreams
    our own personal letter from God
    our owner’s manual
    a handbook for solving problems
    our own apocalyptic window into the events of the last days”

    I find that the church, whether denominational or not, has as one of its vital components reading and allowing the Word of God to do the work of God in and through us. Just the reading and discussion of the Bible will not make us a church, though the activity is important and life-changing. There come a moment or moments when we do take up that cross and begin to make a difference in the mission field around us – as we see it. (Matthew 25:34. 35, 36)

    After Jesus compares the coming day of the Son of Man (Matthew 25:31) to a shepherd separating his sheep from the goats, he tells them (us): “Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it (giving food, drink, clothing comfort and fellowship) to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.” (v 40)

    I am wondering if there might not be at least one among us who would find going out into ministry today more productive than sniping here at BTA! If this discussion is not helpful, wisdom would say move on. Just a friendly suggestion, of course.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  67. poohpity says:

    The minute I step out my door and sometimes in my home is always a chance presented for ministry. Even on here at times.

    It seems that with the bible illiteracy running at 89% among believers it is not common practice to read the bible. Is it on the list of must do’s? I do not know since we have teachers who teach us what it says? I do not believe we get any brownies points for doing it. That is up to each person and their search to know about God and obviously it is not the norm.

  68. confeticat says:

    Look PoohpitHissyFit, you expect everyone else to believe that you’ve read the Bible umpteen times and yet you will not take someone else’s word for it and take little sniping jabs at whoever. Whether you were dysfunctional when you came to the group, or whether you got that way by being in this group, I can’t say. I have come to you with the word of the Lord that has been confirmed many times, and if you don’t like it then you have him to deal with. But a person who was clever enough and massaged your egos just the right way could get this group to agree with anything.

  69. remarutho says:

    Dear Confeticat —

    You have been chief sniper this morning. Please remember that power lies is good will — ill will is intrinisically weak. Perhaps you would choose to amend your approach. Again, just a suggestion for you.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  70. confeticat says:

    Is that what your horoscope for today says, New Age Nirvana?

  71. remarutho says:

    Confeticat,
    As you wrote:
    “I have come to you with the word of the Lord that has been confirmed many times.” Numbers 6:24, 25, 26
    Maru

  72. confeticat says:

    Whatever.

  73. poohpity says:

    con, I really do not care if anyone believes I have read the bible or not. I was brought up in a dysfunctional family and my own children were also brought up in a dysfunctional family with me as the head. What has that got to do with the topic we were talking about regarding the contents of the Bible? Are you on that Hogwarts train again?

  74. Bill says:

    I don’t have anything more to add to what appears to be another escalating confrontation. So I’ll sit this one out.

    By the way, I apologize for being “Filibuster Bill.” I’ll be aware of the length of my comments from now on. Thank you for letting me know my error, confeticat.

  75. confeticat says:

    Don’t take it that way, Filibuster. I’ve enjoyed some of your filibusters. It’s not an error – it’s you.

  76. royalpalm says:

    Hello BTA friends,
    I appreciate your posts – for they reveal your relationship with God and also reveal much about you. I praise God for His work in your life knowing that the Author and Finisher of your faith will bring it to completion to His glory.

    Hi,Confeticat. I admire the energy that you used to come up with the AT & T analogy. Wow, it was almost funny! Unfortunately, whether it is God’s word or this group as you admitted you are referring to, I personally do not care about your innuendos.

    Earlier on, despite your “clever arguments” and seemingly “abundant” Biblical knowledge, we recognize contradictions, outright errors, assumptions and conjectures. It is hard to understand a person who is full of conflicting ideas. If you are here to impress , kindly look for a another audience. Nevertheless, if you are here to join in the discussion, I challenge you to explain this verse:

    John 20:31 “ but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.”

  77. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Pooh & Bill —
    I return to the blog to find your feelings are hurt — for my share of that I apologize. You both bring wonderful insights and perspectives to BTA — truly.
    Blessings,
    Maru

  78. confeticat says:

    Hissy Fit – Individuals each bring their idiosyncrasies to a group. Steve said in a group we have evidences to support our beliefs – but that is not faith (Heb. 11:1). Jesus calls and works with the individual. In GroupThink he can’t get a word in edgewise.

  79. confeticat says:

    Royal Pain — John 20:31 just simply says, “These are written, that you might continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life through his name.” It’s self-explanatory. When we think we have to explain things that don’t need explaining, we complicate the message.

  80. Bill says:

    My feelings aren’t hurt, Maru, if your last post referred (in part) to me. Con is right about this: “Don’t take it that way, Filibuster. I’ve enjoyed some of your filibusters. It’s not an error – it’s you.”

    That was sweet, actually. It made me laugh. It is me. But that doesn’t mean I have to subject all of you to so much me. I’ll be much briefer from now on. :)

    I think we should all meet up one day for a group hug and a long, in-person discussion.

  81. phpatato says:

    Tempted and Tried, we’re oft made to wonder
    Why it should be thus all the day long;
    While there are others living about us,
    Never molested, though in the wrong.

    Refrain:
    Farther along we’ll know more about it,
    Farther along we’ll understand why;
    Cheer up, my brother, live in the sunshine,
    We’ll understand it all by and by.

  82. phpatato says:

    Please Bill don’t adjust your commenting length based on one person’s rude perspective. I look forward to reading what you have to say…every word. If it is long-winded..the better! Please

    :-)

  83. confeticat says:

    Yes, i have to agree with ssspud on that, Filibuster (although she said she was going to refrain). Don’t adjust your length – after all, if it’s what God is telling you to write you should listen to him. If it’s not, well then shorten it.

  84. remarutho says:

    Hey Bill!

    Dandy perspective — thanks so much. Will have to remember our friend’s sweetness. Sure there’s no pill in the jam? I will cherish our Confection-cat from now on…the little dear.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  85. phpatato says:

    May I add… an immature and childish name-calling perspective.

    Keep it up confeticat, your true colours are showing more and more everytime you comment. You do want us to take you seriously right? lololololo

  86. royalpalm says:

    Hi, confeticat, lol Thanks for the compliment!!! :o)

    Here’s the verse I gave you: John 20:31 “ but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.”
    And here is what you gave back: John 20:31 “These are written, that you might continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life through his name.”
    You used Messiah for Christ which you said you did not believe. The 2 words mean the same. The most important questions in life are,
    1.Do you admit that you have sinned against God?
    2.Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ, the Son of God and that He died to atone for your sins and rose again, and is at the right hand of the Father?

    Confeticat, your answer to these questions would truly reveal where you stand with God…thanks for your answers…

  87. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Why o why?

    We are are all brethren together in Love.
    Confeticat, why do you keep to the shadows, in the dark?
    God said we live and walk in the light.
    Please tell us who you are and where you come from.
    Let us know the substance of your belief and conviction.
    You seem like a hurt cornered animal/person hitting out at people who are confident in who they are and in who they believe in.
    I want to get to know who you are and be a friend.

    Your Friend

    Bob in Cornwall

  88. confeticat says:

    Royal Pain — I will answer your questions best i can. As I have said , the WORDS Messiah and Christ mean the same, but the figures do not. The Messiah is Jewish and is/was expected by Jews, Christ is not. Christ is a title, not a name, and was inserted throughout the NT where it doesn’t belong and has, through the writings of Paul, become an idol that bears little or no resemblance to Jesus, the true Messiah.

    I’m not sure those are the two most important questions in life, especially remembering your views of Jesus on this blog which would seem to make him less than God the Father.

    The person I used to be sinned, and sinned plenty. i was away from the Lord about 30 years. The person I am now does not sin, although Jesus is the judge of that. This is not speaking of sinless perfection, a term which only describes Jesus. You can be free of sin and yet be lax, unalert, miss his voice at times. These are not overt sins but are degrees of commitment that few have attained perfectly, certainly not me. #2 Yes.

  89. royalpalm says:

    Dear BTA family,
    please pray for confeticat, even as she/he examines her /his faith in the Lord. God’s honor is at stake for only those who belong to Him can honor and glorify His name. God has created her/him for Himself and wants her/him to worship Him. We are puppets of the enemy until God in His mercy opens our minds to His truth.

  90. confeticat says:

    ClawedYa — Your poem is OK, I guess. I’m not thrilled with it because there are many times Jesus or the Holy Spirit has spoken to me in the middle of the night. He should always be on line, and we should always be tuned in, which we will be if we are abiding in him.

  91. confeticat says:

    Bloody Bob, Someone turned up a rock – lol. Why am I “in the shadows” any more than anyone else here? You’re being a drama queen.

  92. confeticat says:

    Something you disagreed with, Royal Pain?

  93. remarutho says:

    Good Afternoon BTA Friends —

    Must take my own suggestion. Will await a future topic.

    Yours in Christ,
    Maru

  94. poohpity says:

    It takes no skill to point out the shortcomings of others nor is it the example that Jesus gave. He had compassion on those who realized they needed help. If we believe the Bible is the Word of God then we can come together around the fact that all have faults and sin. I also believe we are taught to look for those things in others that are true, pure, lovely, good and to think on those things. Anybody can fine faults and enjoy making fun of others it takes a special set apart people to fix our thoughts on the better qualities that people display. It may take some time to find those good things in some people but if we ask God to help us see beyond what is seen we can find them with His help and for His help to love those who seem so unlovely.

  95. confeticat says:

    Satan tells you to look for the good things. Amazingly, Hissy Fit, I’ve never used this Scripture before on here. I John 3:4,5,6,7,8,9. Verse 8 being of particular significance today.

  96. poohpity says:

    Sweetheart you just go on and “use” scripture for whatever you want it has no merit to me along with the derogatory comments. It actually frustrates me that the people who manage this blog keep allowing this negative behavior to continue without addressing it. It is obvious that name calling is certainly not the work of the born again person. Your comments speak for who has a hold of your heart especially with the delusions that you are with out sin when you say the things you do.

  97. confeticat says:

    You didn’t even read the Scripture, did you.

  98. poohpity says:

    It would be nice if our words were to bless others not tear them apart that is not from a heart who has placed Jesus on His throne or a heart that is set on pleasing Him.

  99. confeticat says:

    Well, if you won’t even read a few verses, but must wait for them to come up in you yearly Bible reading…

  100. foreverblessed says:

    Thank you very much for joining us poorinspirit, your words are flowing of grace. It is grace that makes us alive again, grace that makes us understand the bible. And grace comes through Jesus.
    I hope to grow in the knowledge of grace and of Jesus. To see Him more and more in all things, also in the bible.
    It was a good discussion for a while, it made me think again, is all in the bible about Jesus, I believe it is, although I cannot see it yet, but the more we grow in knwolegde of Him we will see it. Although the bible is also about humans who fail a lot, sometimes it is depressing to read it, what has Jesus to do with that? I guess that would bring in the word grace, grace through Jesus: Whatever is done in heaven or under heaven or on earth, Jesus reconciles all things..
    Colossians 1 “19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”

    For the rest: Keep it all up, living in God’s grace, living in His love. Do not let anyone take your joy away. There is a Psalm which says: do not fret Psalm 37:8
    It is easy to say, but it is best, have been too much busy with getting annoyed by people myself, it does not work. Staying close to God is best, delighting yourself in Him, makes you positive. And slowly full of grace, and truth and love.

  101. confeticat says:

    Forever Messed: I didn’t feel any anger on here today, so what is the need for your pep talk? When warnings are given unnecessarily they plant seeds in people’s minds. Or is that what they are meant to do?

  102. poohpity says:

    Could it be that she was talking to those of us who follow after Jesus and live under His grace. Prompting us to show that to others especially when it is difficult to do.

  103. confeticat says:

    I don’t know, Pooh. “Stay positive” is worldly advice.

  104. royalpalm says:

    Sorry, was away for a while…thanks forever blessed, pooh, claudia, bob, maru, davids, bill, poorinspirit, and everyone for your thoughts.

    Confeticat, thanks also for your reply; your 12:40 post said, “ the WORDS Messiah and Christ mean the same, but the figures do not. The Messiah is Jewish and is/was expected by Jews, Christ is not. Christ is a title, not a name, and was inserted throughout the NT where it doesn’t belong and has, through the writings of Paul, become an idol that bears little or no resemblance to Jesus, the true Messiah.”

    Con, I’d like to see if I read you right… You are saying that the WORDS Messiah and Christ mean the same but the PEOPLE they refer to are not the same?

    Wow, Whoever puts this idea in your head has clearly wanted to confuse you. When you read the words Christ or Messiah – how do you know if they are just WORDS and not PEOPLE? How do you distinguish one from the other? Surely you can see that the one who taught you this idea wanted to muddle your brain to confuse you. Why do you choose to be a victim of this deception?

    God does not want to confuse you, confeticat. He is the truth.The words Christ and Messiah refer to ONE person- Jesus of Nazareth, God the Son who came in the flesh to die for our sins. Matt. 16:16

    God Himself will confirm this truth if you are willing to humble yourself and listen to Him instead of listening to false teachers. I pray that you would.

  105. poohpity says:

    No one is teaching “stay positive” could they be teaching stay grace filled. Loving others as we have been loved. Showing grace because we have received grace, showing mercy because we have received mercy. Look for the “positive” when there is so much negative and whoa to those who fill others lives with hurt, name calling and harmful thinking. Being kind to our enemies and to those who cause harm because of the love we have for God not because the people deserve it.

  106. royalpalm says:

    confeticat, re my faith – Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God who is the Christ/Messiah is no lesser than God the Father. God is God in three persons – The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; they all glorify each other in the work that they do.

  107. confeticat says:

    Royal Pain: I do not listen to false teachers or any teachers. I didn’t get what I told you from anyone but Jesus himself. I know that you are used to getting things from teachers, but that’s where you’ve gone off the cliff.

    The words Messiah and Christ both mean “the anointed one,” Christ in Greek. There is no Christ, except in people’s minds. It’s very simple to distinguish one from the other if you know Jesus. He is not some garish figure with a bride he calls his body who builds fancy churches. Christ was never on the cross, is not coming back, and I would not want him for my Saviorand Lord. Why do you?

  108. Bill says:

    I think I see what you’re getting, con.

    You’re saying the word “Christ” wasn’t on the cross. That would be like the word “Mister” or the word “Darling” on the cross. A title doesn’t exist except as a construct in the mind, sort of like in The Matrix.

    Jesus, the person, was on the cross. But His title, by itself, was not.

    Is that it? Am I close?

    If so, aren’t you splitting hairs? Neither one is on the cross now. So both words are a mental construct at this point in time. Why does it matter, now, if we say “Jesus was on the cross” or “Jesus died for my sins” … Or if we say “Christ died on the cross”? If the mental construct is clear and obvious, why is it a problem?

  109. Bill says:

    I meant getting AT in my first sentence. Sorry.

    I’m on my iPhone.

  110. royalpalm says:

    con, if I were you, I will stop listening to the “Jesus” you claim to be teaching you.

    When the Bible mentions Messiah/Christ – it refers to no one except Jesus of Nazareth because He was the ONLY “anointed one” who was also the Son of God.

    So when your teacher “Jesus” teaches you of another “Christ” he is teaching you a wrong gospel. It is a hoax.He is not Jesus Christ who is the Son of God.

  111. tracey5tgbtg says:

    I got to leave work early today so I actually have some time to comment on Mart’s original post. Reading it I understood him to be talking about the way we were raised on the Bible having a big effect on how we read it. Mart, you said “your generation” grew up being wary of those who see every story in the Bible as being a picture of Jesus.

    I didn’t quite understand what you were saying. I know that my first 18 years were completely controlled by Catholic school and what I learned there. My parents were Catholic meaning my dad is Mexican and thus Catholic by default and my mom is white and jumped at the chance to be Catholic when she married my dad because she saw it as a way to have faith in God without people telling her she had to be saved all the time.

    My parents practiced their faith for one hour every Sunday morning. My mom told me once, when I was complaining about sitting in church, that when she thought of all God had done for her, she could easily give up one hour for Him.

    I didn’t own a Bible until I was 28, meaning I’d never read the whole thing. In Catholic school, you study various Scriptures, but no one gives you a Bible. Except the Good News for Modern Man, which is a Catholic Bible (extra books) in today’s language.

    I had seen King James Bibles and they made me very depressed. I felt very “evil” because I was unable to make heads or tails of what they were saying.

    I learned early on to be very afraid of going to hell. Sinners go to hell. You can have sinful thoughts. God knows your every thought. Ergo, I didn’t stand a chance.

    It wasn’t enough to present the image of being good, and the Lord knows I tried, but even your heart must be pleasing to God. I was so terrified. I knew that God must know the truth – I didn’t like Him, let alone love Him. Stories about God telling Abraham to sacrifice His Son gave me an image of God that was hard to get close to. Plus, the crucifix, with Jesus suffering on it, was so hard for me. I was told at school that I should be glad that Jesus suffered & died, yet common sense told me I should be heartbroken that the God I was supposed to love and worship was abused in such a way. How to be glad yet heartbroken? My heart was simply scared.

    My mom couldn’t help me. I’d tell her I was afraid I was going to hell, in the middle of the night when the fear was worse, and she’d say things like, “God loves you, He won’t send you to hell” or “God knows you’re not that bad.” She did not have the right answers.

    That was grace that taught my heart to fear. I know now that it was the grace of God that wouldn’t let me accept what I was taught, that if I was a good Catholic, who followed all the rules, and said the right prayers I would be assured of a place in heaven. After I’d done my time in purgatory of course. Only saints go straight to heaven. Murderers and those who commit mortal sins go straight to hell. But the average Joe spends some time in purgatory until he’s all cleaned up and can go to heaven. Praying for the souls in purgatory helps them to get to heaven faster. These are some of the things I learned in Catholic school. And everyone else I went to school with didn’t seem to have a problem because things were going in one ear and out the other. They went to mass, they went to communion, they went to confession, and they were good to go. One hour on Sunday, and Holy days of obligation, is all it takes.

    To me it was easier to quit pretending to love God than to feel the continual fear. When I put the things of God totally away from me I had peace. The fear was gone. If there is no God, there is no hell so there you have it.

    I thought I was fine for about 10 years, although all the while I’m sinking into depravity that is putting my life at risk. But I totally bought into the whole I’m OK, you’re OK and if it feels good do it mentality. I contemplated suicide frequently, and I wasn’t speaking to my mom.

    I ended up married with two small children, and at that point, my fear came back. I was back on the “I’m going to hell and I don’t know how to stop it” train.

    All this time, I’d kept one little “string” tied around my finger. Something I would hold onto and take out and look at for a bit of comfort. It was these words: God is love. He who lives in love, lives in God and He in him.

    I wasn’t even sure if that was in the Bible, let alone where to find it. But I held on to those words believing that if they were true, I had hope.

    One middle of the night, when I was terrified again, I tried to tell my sleeping husband my problem. “I’m scared that I’m going to go to hell.” His answer: “do you want to go to hell?” “No!” I asserted. “Then you won’t.” That didn’t help. But at that point our 9 month old son started screaming.

    It was a relief just to have the distraction of holding my son and I rushed to get him. But for the first time ever, he didn’t want me to hold him. He wouldn’t let me nurse him. He just screamed his lungs out. I tried to set him down since he was arching his back trying to get out of my grasp, but the second his feet hit the floor, he was screaming and desperately reaching out for me to pick him up. This went back and forth a few times. Finally I just got a grip on him and paced the floor thinking I wished I could tell him it’s OK. Whatever his problem was, I wished I could tell him it would be over soon.

    I started thinking that I wished I could let him know that I loved him. I thought about my own childhood and how I’d been afraid to tell my mom some things and how my son could tell me anything, and I’d still love him. He could scream in my face “I hate you!” (something I’d done to my dad) and I’d still love him.

    There was nothing he could do to make this mother-child relationship end. It was simply not in his power to make me stop loving him. And God used that moment to reach straight into my heart. The words “as much as you love this child, how much do I love you” appeared in my brain. I could feel the relief from years of fear just encompassing me. I looked at my son in my arms, and he was asleep.

    It was at that moment that grace my fears relieved. I started running towards God instead of away and it has been that way since. Things happened fast after that and the next thing I know I’m in a charismatic church going up for an alter call that the pastor had thrown in that morning because for some reason he felt God telling him to.

    I cried and cried and I never wanted to get up off my knees. I wanted to stay there forever. That was 19 years ago and every thing I’ve learned from the Bible has been since then.

    Amazing grace that saved a wretch like me. And I literally am a wretch, but God knows! I don’t have to try and hide from Him. He knows and because He loves me He came to be crucified and shed his blood because without that, I have no hope. His death and resurrection is my only hope! It is the only hope of every man. When Peter said, “surely this shall not happen to you” Jesus said “get behind me Satan.”

    This morning confeticat said he was mocking the group that crucified Jesus. That was me. “It was my sin that held Him there.” Every man crucified Jesus. If you say that you didn’t crucify Him you are saying Jesus didn’t need to die for you. You are saying you can be good enough on your own without God’s help. You are putting yourself above God.

    For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

  112. royalpalm says:

    tracey, what a beautiful testimony of God’s love, mercy and grace! God has created us for Himself and there is no peace in our lives until we find Him and the rest He provides. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost Luke 19:10 and is always knocking at our hearts. Praise God that like the good shepherd, He does not stop searching until He finds the lost sheep. May He always lead you along paths of righteousness for His Name’s sake.

  113. confeticat says:

    That is a wonderful testimony, Tracey. Jesus had your son cry that night so that you would understand how much he loves you – that is beautiful.

    You know though, that in these past 19 years God has wanted to show you more. Because he showed us something in a wonderful way once doesn’t mean he’s through working with us.

    i didn’t say I was mocking the group that crucified Jesus (though they deserved it, don’t you think?) I was mocking THIS group for the way they handled this topic, because some of them claim to be teachers yet need to be taught themselves (James 3:1). I was trying to say that it was this kind of GROUP THINK that was at work the day Jesus was crucified. You applied that crowd to all of us, yes it’s true.

    All that you were taught in Catholic school – that’s Christ. The body still hanging on the cross – that’s Christ. Purgatory – that’s Christ. The fear of hell without the Good News – that’s Christ. The Christ figure was brought into being by the Church.

    It might help you if you replace the word “grace” with Jesus. That’s what grace is, that’s WHO grace is.

  114. bubbles says:

    Violence is any mean word, look, sign, or act that hurts a person’s body, feelings, or things. No one is entitled to use violence. Violence should not be tolerated.

  115. confeticat says:

    Bill, what on earth are you talking about. The Matrix? Get a grip! I didn’t say a title was on the cross. The only title on the cross was “King of the Jews”, which was accurate, by the way, and doesn’t fit Christ. No, you’re not close.

    It doesn’t make a difference if an imposter died for your sins? I’d say it makes a BIG difference!

  116. davids says:

    I have really enjoyed being on this blog for quite some time. However the rudeness and lack of considered discussion has become too much.

    It is no longer about God, but about a person’s will. I’ll check back later.

    I will continue praying for you! Blessings!

  117. confeticat says:

    Sorry, Royal Pain, Isa. 30 says my eyes will see my Teacher and I know my Teacher well and I will never stop listening to him.

    Maybe you were absent the day, some time back, we went over the insertion of the word ‘Christ’ into the Gospels, although there were no Christians then and all the people the Gospels were writing about were Jewish. The scribe that did it was kinda dumb and put it in parenthesis so it’s easy to spot (John 1:41; 4:25)

  118. poohpity says:

    No confeticat, That is what Jesus shows to us is grace because He is the Christ/Messiah. His body on the Cross was the proof He was the Christ/Messiah. His body off the Cross is the resurrected Christ/Messiah. The fear of hell is what happens when we do not have the belief in Jesus as the Christ/Messiah. The Christ figure was brought into being from God the Father since His conception. One can not replace grace with Jesus it is because of Jesus we have grace because he was our deliverer, redeemer (the Christ/Messiah). There is no separation it is the same word, with the same meaning, for the same person. The church was brought into being because of the Christ/Messiah not the other way around.

    Thank you for sharing your testimony tracey, it was beautiful and I will not harm you by asking you to change anything because that is yours, between you and your Savior.

  119. confeticat says:

    Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me. For you are the child of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:43,44)

  120. davids says:

    tracey5tgbtg, I read through your entire post and it touched my heart. Thank you for your whitness!

  121. davids says:

    Confeticat, you seem to be basing your ideas on a lack of understanding about the origins of the Bible. There was no single scribe that could have inserted the word “Christ” into the gospels.

    Research for yourself the work that has gone into the authentication of the biblcal texts, and the writings of the early fathers of the church.

    There is simply no room for your ideas about textual manipulation. I fear that they are intended to lead people astray.

    I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you to truth.

  122. confeticat says:

    How many scribes does it take to change a lightbulb?

  123. poohpity says:

    How many counselors does it take to change a light bulb? None until the light bulb wants to change.

  124. royalpalm says:

    Confeticat, re your 5:48 post, Wow what good choice of scriptures, Isa. 30 actually talks of rebellious people who listen to advice , but not from God,. Isa. 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children,” says the LORD,“Who take counsel, but not of Me, And who devise plans, but not of My Spirit,That they may add sin to sin…”

    In this instance Israel listened to Egypt rather than God and God pronounced His judgments on them. He called them rebellious lying children who refused to hear the word of God, who refused to hear the right things that the prophets tell them. Isa. 30:9:10,11 . God pronounced His judgments on them: Isa. 30:12-15.

    Isa. 30:21, which you claim is what your “teacher” teaches you is God’s promise of restoration after the rebellious people return to Him and put their confidence in Him again.

    So, con, I suggest that you read the whole of Isa. 30, instead of just snipping a verse or 2 to suit your argument.

  125. royalpalm says:

    Con, same with John 1:41 and John 4:25 – the parentheses simply explains that the word “Messiah” also means” Christ” – a title that was given to Jesus of Nazareth. Kindly read the whole story. There is only one person involved -Jesus the Messiah/Christ.

    It seems that there is a problem of reading comprehension which turned into a major belief….

  126. confeticat says:

    Pain, didn’t the Lord ever give you a portion of Scripture just for you? Apparently not. He gave me Isa. 30:20-26 and other Scriptures just for me. It was written to mean something else, sure. But don’t tell me what the Lord has given to me is not for me.

    Yes there is only one person involved in the John passages because Christ is not a person. There were no “Christians” until Antioch (Acts 11:26.) Jews would not have accepted a Christ at that time, and John would not have written that in his gospel. Weren’t you one of the ones who said you’re a teacher?

  127. remarutho says:

    Good Evening Mart & Friends —

    Stacey, thank you for your testimony in this conversation! It is a gentle and convincing word in the midst. Your story makes me happy that I checked in to see how it is going. God is good, and his righteousness endures forever! (Psalm 111:3)

    Blessings to all,
    Maru

  128. royalpalm says:

    Isa. 30:20-26 JUST for you? Are you kidding me? Some letters in the NT were addressed to specific persons e.g. Philemon, Titus… so these were really meant for them but we can LEARN from these letters.

    Con, I think you should read in context, that is, understand who the writing is really for and what it is all about – then LEARN from it and apply it in your own life. Kindly DO NOT claim it is JUST for you.

    Now, you said it – Christ is not “another” person but the title given to Jesus. So every time you read CHRIST in the Bible you should think JESUS of Nazareth because that title is given to HIM alone.

  129. confeticat says:

    Jesus the Messiah doesn’t want the title of Christ. It has been a drag on his assembly and on his people. He doesn’t need another title. He is King of kings and Lord of lords.

    No, I’m not kidding you. And I feel sorry for you that you have never claimed a promise from Scripture, that you have never heard his voice giving you any. I claim them JUST for me and many of them He has already fulfilled.

  130. Bill says:

    con, at the risk of being made to feel stupid again, I have to ask…

    You wrote: “Jesus the Messiah doesn’t want the title of Christ.”

    Can you tell us where you read/heard where Jesus the Messiah doesn’t want the title of Christ? Is there a verse? A chapter? Did that come from a sermon you’d heard somewhere?

    What is the source material to back up your statement?

  131. jeff1 says:

    This is my first time on the blog. I think the Pastor’s video puts it in a nutshell and this is what I like. I believe the Bible is difficult to understand and when I listen to friends of mine from different backgrounds and read this blog and see how many interpret it differently I believe the Bible can cause diversion from Jesus. So rather than complicate the gospel for myself I prefer to keep it simple. I see too many getting bogged down with arguments and move completely away from the gospel message and it has discouraged myself and I know people who have said those Christians cannot agree among themselves so why listen to them. To me Jesus’s message is about helping each other along the way and if we stay focused on Jesus we are more likely to do that. I have got inspiration from stories in the Bible and that gives me strength and courage when I go through dark patches in my life. Otherwise I leave it to the people who need to study it for intellectual purposes i.e teachers etc. Lets not keep making the same mistakes over and over again if unchristians see christians actually in harmony with each other rather than going on about differences that they cannot resolve then we might actually get somewhere.

  132. confeticat says:

    No, none of the above. I just know that he doesn’t. He has gone to a lot of trouble to get rid of it because it’s of Satan.

  133. confeticat says:

    Jeff, there have been too many arguments over the Bible and I understand your feelings about wanting to keep it simple. But I wonder where you get that Jesus’ message is about helping each other along the way? Seems you need at least the Gospels there to clarify what Jesus is teaching, because that’s only a small part of his message and not the most important part.

    Also Jesus said he didn’t come to bring harmony but to divide (Luke 12:51-53). So Christians aren’t going “to get anywhere” as a group but only individually as each pushes his way into the Kingdom of God (Luke 13:24).

  134. poohpity says:

    So jeff1 have you read the bible without listening to what others have said but for your growing knowledge of your Lord and Savior. Or do you just leave it to others to tell you about what it says? What if they only teach you things to make you feel good and twist the truth to suit their point of view? Do you not want to know about God yourself?

    Not all Christians argue about the Word? There are many that are on a journey to discover the Word for themselves. Normally those who argue about what it says are those who have not even really read the Bible but only parts. These coming weeks if you find a fellow believer arguing about what the Bible says inquire if they have actually even read it and I will lay you odds that the answer will be no. It is normally not common practice most leave it to pastor’s or teachers to read it then tell you what it says and the days are coming when there will be those who lead others astray for their own purposes.

    Reading the Bible is to get to know the one you worship. Most people want to get to know the people they love, the Bible is a way to get to know God. Not to get into arguments about but to get into love about.

  135. royalpalm says:

    (sorry, drop-in visitors just left…)

    yes, confeticat, as Bill pointed out, where did you get the idea that “Jesus the Messiah doesn’t want the title of Christ.”?

    The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ. Kindly read Matt. 16:13-17 where” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matt. 16:16 Note Jesus acknowledged this title and called Peter blessed because God the Father Himself revealed this to Peter. Matt. 16:17.

    If it was not true, He would have corrected Peter immediately like what he did later…John 16:23,24.

  136. royalpalm says:

    Sorry, reference above should be Matt. 16:23,24.

  137. royalpalm says:

    oops, should be Matt. 16:22,23. :o)

  138. royalpalm says:

    con, please don’t feel sorry for me – unlike you, I don’t simply claim a verse and make it mine. I read it first and understand it – who is it talking to? why? what is happening in the story? is there something I can learn from this? I discover the story behind the words – as Mart is telling us. Then I memorize Scriptures. I don’t keep them for myself, either – I share them.

    The Bible is God’s Word. He is telling us HIS story. I do not tell God what His word means. With humility and respect I have to discover and learn what He is telling me and only He can do that. God is the only One who gives understanding of His own Word. Psalm 19:7,8,9,10,11,14

  139. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    I love the 43rd chapter of Isaiah. It speaks to me in times of personal trial and testing. Isaiah, in the later chapters, wrote consolations to Judah – in exile in Babylon. So, I partake of the consoling words myself (“Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name – you are mine”).

    Chapter 30 is part of Isaiah’s warnings to Judah – and God’s promise that if she would forsake her idols – including Egypt as a protecting ally – she would come out on the other side a favored child of God. But, Judah paid fealty to Egypt, and Assyria. Both betrayed her, as Isaiah warned they would. Even King Josiah, the great reformer and servant of God, was duped into opposing Necho of Egypt on his way to Carchemish. Josiah bled to death in his chariot, or was carried seriously wounded back to Jerusalem, where he died.

    The death of Josiah is ironic and tragic. Isaiah’s warning about Egypt and Assyria was ignored. It is true that the triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, abide together and speak with a unified voice. But, the words of Isaiah 30 are not spoken by the incarnate Messiah/Christ. It does not mean they are not meaningful to us in our own day.

    The pivotal battle at Carchemish (Turkey) took place about 605 BC. Nebuchadnezzar II defeated the allied armies of Egypt and Assyria. From that time, until the coming of Cyrus, the Babylonian army controlled the Ancient Near East. Jerusalem was besieged and fell to Babylonian forces about 586 BC. Both events are attested in the Babylonian Chronicles as well as the Bible.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  140. remarutho says:

    The death of Josiah is recorded in 2 Chronicles 35:20-27. Chapter 36 tells of the defeat of Jerusalem and the exile to Babylon, as do 2 Kings 24 & 25. Warnings came from Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. The Bible is a great saga of God’s love for his people. Sorry my post is too long. Maru

  141. foreverblessed says:

    NO not at all, I enjoyed reading it, Maru.
    Tracey, thank you very very much for your story. That was really long, but could be longer, thanks. Our God is good and full of grace!

    Confeticat, please do call me by my blogname, or use another uplifing name, but not this downgrading name you use. Jesus would never inspire anybody to call me what you call me. Jesus is forever merciful. He could not have inspired you to change my name in what you do, neither Royalpalm’s name.
    So could you please stop this, I kindly ask you.

    Jeff1, I am very sorry that there is so much arguing among christians, but I fear christianity is being attacked by the evil forces, because it is their enemy. So much weird thinking. The plain Gospel, how gracious that is, and how precious.
    I need the Holy Spirit to tell me how to be clever and yet not stupid. To be graceful and yet not talking good wrong thinking.

  142. foreverblessed says:

    Tracey, what you wrote came back to me the last hour, God is forever loving us. It made my heart so glad! The verse:
    she laughs at the day to come
    came into my mind, this day Proverbs 31:25
    and so it is, God gives us joy, because of His unfailing love.

  143. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Tracey,
    I to want to thank you for your testimony. It is wonderful to see how God was really there for you all the time.
    I know when I look back I see the two puppies following me!

    Psalm23: 6

    Nice to hear from you Jeff1.
    I am pleased you have learned to focus on Jesus and “The Jesus” in people and not the person themselves.
    We sometimes let ourselves down and Jesus THE CHRIST Son of the Living God as well.

    Bob

    ps.
    When I was a younger guy I always found it difficult to say the title Christ because, to me, it implied authority and was an acknowledgment that Jesus IS Lord and therefore needs to be listened to and obeyed.
    After reading through these last few topics I will certainly use the title Jesus The Christ/Messiah much much more.
    Thank You Confeticat for your input!

  144. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Public Holiday weekend here and lots going on in the village.
    Fishermen’s Barbecue and Raft Race today.
    Lifeboat Day Sunday with Air sea Rescue demonstrations and lots of stalls.
    Torchlight parade on Monday evening when everyone caries a flaming torch around the village and march behind the town Band.
    Lots of parties to, so may be “Absent Without Leave” ’till next week!
    Everyone have a great Sunday and as our old wartime slogan says “Keep Calm & Carry On”

    Bob

  145. SFDBWV says:

    When I got to the computer this morning I was wondering if Mart had changed the subject in an attempt to quell the disturbance, for that small time before it becomes corrupted once again.

    Poor Jeff1, I hope he didn’t take the slaps in his face too personal; one has to have a pretty tough hide and a degree in psychiatry to stay in this blog anymore.

    Last evening I watched a little of the never ending curiosity about Adolf Hitler on the “History Channel”. Nothing new there, but what caught my attention was the reference to his book “Mein Kampf”.

    It was his book that swept him into not just national, but international fame. His book becomes the starting point for his march through history.

    What has this to do with our topic?

    Once Hitler was entrenched as the *supreme* power in Germany he educated the youth to believe his poison, all the while leading an all too enthusiastic populace to agree with it.

    Group thinking on a national scale.

    70 years later we are left to wonder where was common sense and especially Christianity while all this was happening; and what have we learned?

    It all started with a warped mind and his book.

    Why do we listen to the madmen around us? Is it because madmen sometimes say very startling things? Or is it because there is a little madness in us all?

    As a Christian, my belief system is based on Jesus of Nazareth being who He is and what it is He has brought to mankind. He is my foundation and my rock.

    If you can imagine for a moment standing on a rock in the middle of a raging sea, while sharks circle you and flies and gnats buzz about your head; what is you attention directed to? Is it the sharks, flies and gnats or the safety of the *rock* you stand upon?

    Stay focused on Christ, and the flies, and gnats and even the sharks will give up and go after an easier prey.

    I hope to hear from you again Jeff. Tracey you have a great witness, thank you for your comments.

    Steve

  146. Bill says:

    @Bob, have a great weekend! It’s okay to be AWOL now and then, especially with so much celebrating going on.

    @Steve, great post. You asked where was common sense and Christianity during the years of Nazi Germany. I don’t know about common sense. But, sadly, Christianity (with the notable exception of Bonhoffer) sided with the Nazis much of the time. Hitler tried to nationalize the church and/or redirect its message and priorities. People got caught up in the “Yes we can!” of that era and elected a charismatic guy who lead their country down the wrong path. Many (perhaps the majority) of the Christians went along with the insanity, too.

    Christians are not immune from crazy. In fact, there seems to be a curious relationship between religion and mental disorders. I’ve known my share of people who, after discovering Christianity, went off the deep end. A lot depends on two things:

    1. What crowd a person falls in with — books, pastors, denominations, etc., and

    2. If someone can think for himself or herself, so as to remain above (or apart from) the allure of the Hitlers, Jim Jones, Jim Bakkers, et al.

    Religion is becoming a very contentious topic in the world, and even in the U.S. Religion may even be that which ends the world — one religious ideology pitted, mortally, against another. Consider Islam. It is poised to take on Judaism and Christianity in what may become WW III — or the end of the world.

    So where was Chrisianity under Hitler? Apparently, another tool in his arsenal. (Although, keep in mind, Hitler was more occultic than Christian.)

    It’s important for Christians, especially new ones, to keep a level head. Don’t lose sight of reality — or sanity.

  147. confeticat says:

    Steve, you asked where was Christianity while Hitler took over, then you tell us to stay focused on Christ. If I were in the middle of a raging sea, encircled by sharks and flies and gnats buzzing around my head, standing on the head of a pin, I’d be more careful what i say.

    Just want to tie up some loose ends that popped out overnight. i was asked once more where I got the idea that Jesus the Messiah doesn’t want the title of Christ. Angels told me. Then I saw it for myself. And Matt. 16:16 reads ‘Messiah’. Look in a Jewish Bible.

    I don’t choose a scripture and claim it. The Holy Spirit chooses and highlights it first. I was given only a small portion of Isa. 30. Can’t get excited about battles that took place in 600 BC but Nirvana got what I was saying.

    Jeff – Christians should say with Pogo – “The enemy – he is US.”

  148. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    Confeticat, no one here named or misnamed, should align him/herself with lunacy. Misdirected words — misdirected action. Ironic and tragic. Not focused enough to be a real enemy. Defeated before he/she begins. Having the form, but not the substance of power.

    Blessed weekend everybody,
    Maru

  149. remarutho says:

    Josiah intending good — Adolf intending evil. Ironic in the sense of twisted. Blessings, Maru

  150. SFDBWV says:

    Good points Bill, I appreciate your intellect, and I agree.

    At what point does the individual separate from the group and what catalyst is it that prompts it?

    Paul as well as Peter both had to keep emphasizing to the early church not to be distracted from false teaching and false ideology, which both come in a flattering and pretty package.

    Even here in the conversation of this blog if we stay focused on what is good and decent and beautiful in our association with Christ, exposing Him in our dialog, the results are more pleasant.

    Yet when our attention is dragged away into the madness of another we can take a lesson from Jesus as when He came up against the Pharisees and Sadducees sometimes He just simply walked away.

    What isn’t recorded in Scripture is the nasty and erroneous conversation that ensued after Jesus walked away only their desire to have Him silenced.

    Paul tells us to assemble together and thus become a group, yet instructs us how to remain individualized in our relationship with Jesus.

    So it becomes this, do we think for ourselves or do we think as peer pressure regulates?

    In the larger example of Nazi Germany, could individuals think independently at all without the many forces that cause group thinking and on a smaller scale can one break from the group they call church for the same deep psychological reasons?

    I think Foreverblessed and Tracey have told stories of doing it and the struggles that has to be overcome in order to do it.

    Steve

  151. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Before I go down the village.

    Confeticat,

    The Jewish Torah does not contain Mathew 16:16 as it is only concerned about the Old Testament Scriptures and is still looking for Messiah but a Jewish Bible would obviously say Messiah and not Christ as Messiah is a Hebrew word and Christ is a Greek word, both meaning the same!
    Exactly as the English translation for Jehovah is Lord.
    Any Jewish Bible would say Yahweh or Jehovah and the King James would say Lord.

    What does it matter as long as we all know the meaning of the title or word…

    We should count ourselves blessed that we have such a wealth of language and translations of the Bible to turn to, using words like Raboni for teacher and Abba for Father etc.

    Bob

  152. Mart De Haan says:

    Have been away from computer and office so was not following the conversation here yesterday.

    Just got the message from a friend of the blog who alerted me of a problem.

    Name calling and efforts to defend one’s point of view at the expense of others works against our purpose of trying to work through difficult issues and disagreements in a gracious manner.

    Blocking access to anyone is a last resort, but can be done.

  153. Mart De Haan says:

    Have decided to leave the above string as it happened … except I tried to put the brakes by deleting a couple of the last.

    Am going to leave this post open for healthy conversation and disagreement since I may not have a new post up before tomorrow.

    Hope our slip ups don’t do damage to future conversations. We have so much more going for us than against us.

  154. confeticat says:

    Mart the Dart — Good morning! My names for individuals here are affectionate and should not be taken as “name-calling”.

  155. Bill says:

    Hi Mart! You have no way of knowing how these threads go. Plus, you’re busy. So nobody blames you for not being perched at your computer, monitoring every post. Thanks for stepping in this morning.

    confeticat, I didn’t mind your nickname for me (“Filibuster Bill”) because I thought it was apt. But another BTA friend here asked you not to use nicknames for him/her. Others, I think, might be put off, too. In person, when we can see your wry smile, maybe the names wouldn’t offend. But all we have us the black and white of the computer screen. Maybe reconsider? Just a suggestion.

    Have a great weekend, all!

  156. remarutho says:

    Dear Mart & Friends —

    To my Lord, and to all the saints, my apology for any unpleasantness I have caused here. Have I been one of the Colossians? I pray not — and I ask to be delivered from strife-causing words. Colossians 3:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.

    Yours,
    Maru
    Colossians 3:16

  157. poohpity says:

    It tickles me that we are able to determine those in your face type of contradictions to what the Bible says but the subtle nuances that come from a teachers imagination are a little harder to detect as with Keller. There seems to be more that agree with what he said than those who find a bit of imagination in the things he portrays. I wonder what it will take or even if people really care whether they are receiving the intentions of some scripture as long as it produces an emotional reaction.

    I could not agree more Mart, when you said, “there is a basic perspective that gives meaning to everything else—not by turning our imaginations loose—but by letting what is most certain, most true, most good, most important, and most life-changing about the Bible give us a way of putting everything else in perspective.” When our emotions and knowledge come together to recognize when we are taught truth rather than allowing our imaginations to run away with us.

    At lot can be told about us in how we deal with those flies and gnats and miss the impending doom of our emotions ruling our minds by not identifying the real sneaky little twists that infiltrate what some teachers may be teaching. How can you identify those?

  158. poohpity says:

    Bob, I wish I were there to enjoy the festivities this weekend with you, have fun and be careful.

  159. confeticat says:

    To Whom It May Concern: Matt. 16:16 reads ‘Messiah’ not only in the Jewish Bible, but also in the New Living Bible , the New English Bible, and I haven’t checked beyond those.

    The other word in that passage that has been mistranslated is “church” in Matt. 16:18. There was no ‘church’ while Jesus was on earth. The Church takes comfort from this that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. But they are at ease in Zion. The word is “ekklesia” , it means a gathering or assembly, called out from their homes into some public place.

    But with Christ inserted, this mushrooms into some mysterious ethereal body of people called out of this world and joined to him, called the “invisible Church”. i don’t know where that comes from, probably the same place the rapture comes from. (By the way, what are you super-sensitive souls going to do in the tribulation?)

    I have never come up with anything that far-out, and if I had I’d never hear the end of it…

    P.S. Bill, you were the one person here I thought had a sense of humor. “Christ’ must be a real party-pooper.

  160. poohpity says:

    If deception was easy to identify then it would not be deception.

  161. poohpity says:

    Although it is enjoyable, most of the time, we are not here to have a party we come here to discuss real issues with real people. To think about different topics and give our takes on them which hardly ever do you join in. Rather it seems that distraction and self centered conversations are brought to the table. I am sure if that is what you are looking for, to party, then there may be another site that is better suited for your purposes.

  162. narrowpathseeker says:

    Tracey, your testimony was truly beautiful and moved me to tears of joy for your victories. Thank you so much for sharing.

    It seems to me that I have come to a place where much that I may learn today will be forgotten tomorrow when I learn something new. But, I think I remember or am reminded of the major truth of what is seemingly forgotten, when it is most needed. So when I listened to Tim Kellers video, my thoughts went in a different direction. I KNOW that our goal is to become Christlike. What I REMEMBER about many biblical characters is that I can relate to their failures as my own.

    However, when it comes to their admirable qualities, I am no where near equal to them. When I was reminded that Christ is the true and better of each of the characters mentioned my thoughts depressed me. If I am not yet Joseph like or Abraham like in their admirable qualities, how will I ever become Christlike which is true and better?

    Yet, Jesus won my most recent battle for me as I posted last night in The Story Behind Everything. I was reminded that in my painful awareness of how far I fall short, that I STILL have the gall to block out that awareness and selfrighteously think I am far better than some others! In God’s Kingdom my nemesis is my equal. When I went to him with that truth encompassing me, he accepted Christ and prayed with me.

    Again, I thank ALL of you dear souls who prayed me through this. God Bless each and everyone of you.

  163. confeticat says:

    Nervous Nellie Narrow:

    Your “nemesis” accepted Christ? There’s a lot of irony in that, not to mention name-calling.

  164. Bill says:

    con, I have a great sense of humor. That’s why I laughed at your nick for me. I can’t speak for others. So I don’t know if they dug ’em or not. I merely suggested such nicks could be misunderstood, or not appreciated.

    Did you say angels told you what name/title Jesus prefers?

    Narrowpath, a lovely post. Thank you for sharing.

  165. confeticat says:

    Bill, As Jesus my Lord has put up with “Christ” attached as a bloodsucker to his name for about 1700 years, i really don’t have sympathy for the people on this blog.

  166. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    Your insight and understanding are welcome. The Lord Jesus Christ loves you and is calling you by name.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  167. poohpity says:

    Maybe that has been allowed for 1986 years, confusedferralchav, it is quite obvious we do not worship the same Savior since the name you claim to be wrong has changed in 2012 by only you. The Lord does not keep secrets, nothing that is in the light has darkness so if it was revealed to only you then it has no merit.

  168. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Pooh —

    My goodness, is this the one who claims to be allergic to idiots? The Lord Jesus Christ does know the number of hairs on our heads. May the Lord Jesus Christ add his blessing to the hearing and understanding of his Word today. May our true names be found in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

    Blessings Always,
    Maru

  169. poohpity says:

    I apologize. With the thought of the golden rule treat others the way we want to be treated, I thought maybe con wanted a nickname too! Thank you for holding me accountable it was wrong and nasty. con forgive me for name calling and forgive me friends for acting as a child.

  170. poohpity says:

    It is not treat others how they treat you but how you want to be treated.

  171. cherielyn says:

    Thinking about this blog, reading and re-reading the transcript that Mart posted made me think more indepth about this. After first reading it I had a number of thoughts going through my mind, but was unable to post them as I had to leave for the day. Now that I have re-read it, my thoughts have led me in a different direction in my comment than what I originally had in mind.

    What Opens the Bible? To me it is the Holy Spirit that opens the Bible and it is opened to us as we are open to it.

    The Bible should be taken literally, & if done so (provided that a true to the Word translation is being read) there really is no mystery to it at all. It is right there in front of us, as clear as day.

    The problem comes in when we try to search for a deeper, mysterious meaning. Many things can be read into what the Bible says when we don’t take it literally.

    Another problem lies in the fact that things can be misinterpreted when the reader does not have a good grasp of grammar. For example, when a question is being asked (in a verse) and instead of seeing it as a question, which the author of the book later answers, it is rather accepted as we should be doing something instead of questioning why it is being done.

    Tracey, thank you for sharing your testimony. I was very moved when I read it.

    narrowpathseeker, in case you haven’t seen it, I responded to your post in the last topic.

    Have a great day, everyone! 89 degrees at 12:20 p.m. in NE WI. “They” say that the hottest time of day is 3:00 p.m. Can’t imagine what the temp will be by then. I’m staying in the A/C.

  172. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart and Friends —

    Off (just a little) to do a very, very close reading of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles.

    Warm and sunny on the U. S. West Coast.

    Blessings,
    Maru

    PS Love ya, Poohpity.

  173. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    WELL, I Have posting here for about 3 years and Mart has never deleted one of my comments but he did today!
    Thanks Mart!
    If you don’t wont legitimate comment here then just close this web site down and have done with it.

    There is only so much US, WE can take from certain people who parade their “knowledge/Wisdom” of the Bible.
    Mart, Why do you put up with such “blasphemy”

    Bob

  174. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I have nearly come to the point where I will no longer post here!
    This place is a disgrace to our Lord!
    Thank God I live in the UK and not the USA!

    Bob

  175. poohpity says:

    Could it be those of us who are children of the King are held to a higher standard than those who are confused and tormented? Please Bob, do not allow this to cause so much harm among the brethren. Pray with me to allow grace and mercy to fill our thoughts and our hearts. I have had terrible thoughts that I have had to pray about as well. No matter what country we live in we are much loved children of our God. Let us not return evil for evil as I did earlier. My brother and friend let us act differently and receive correction with a glad heart because those who God loves he corrects.

  176. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Debs,
    You know darn well what is going on here!

    There is a fight between the KINGDOM OF GOD and the territory of the devil.
    You and me will not submit to Satan’s world but we will Submit to God’s Kingdom!

    I just hope and wish Mart and the people at RBC Ministries will understand that these are the last days and act in accordance with the Holy Spirit!

    Bob

  177. poohpity says:

    I know but it seems that possibly there has been a person blocked. Yes let’s submit our hearts to the Lord who was and is so gracious to us. ;-)

  178. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Bob –
    I sincerely hope you don’t stop posting here. Although I can understand how sometimes we all need a time away in prayer after the way the blog can get.
    Your comments are so faith-filled. Don’t judge us all by the country we live in. We can’t help where we were born. Just keep the whole world in your prayers.

    Narrow – I just read your account with the man who was going into surgery. God is so good. Thanks for sharing personal things. It is hard to be so vulnerable.

  179. remarutho says:

    Hello All —

    Just in from picking up wind-fall apples in the back yard. Bob! Sometimes a season away to pray is just the thing…only suggesting. Yes, there are influences that are counter to the kingdom of Jesus Christ. The Lord bless and keep you — and remove the brown taste from our mouths. I believe we all value your posts, Bob — I do.

    Maru

  180. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Mart,
    Can you think of something that will unite us, tall order I know.
    Para Olympics next week!
    Surely there is something there that doesn’t involve controversy!

    Love you, I think!

    Bob

  181. poohpity says:

    I know someone that can unite us!! We do have to take responsibility for our own responses and we are given the Holy Spirit, so self control is within us, we just have to draw on it. If this overt attack can separate us then what will happen if it is done covertly?

  182. Bill says:

    Hi All,

    I’d like to say something. I’ll be very short. No “Filibuster Bill” tonight.

    Frankly, if all it takes to push everyone’s buttons is someone like confeticat, we’re in real trouble. We’re very weak people — and even weaker Christians — if a polemicist with a radically different take on the Bible can cause us to cast stones, threaten to stop gathering here, ask for “unity,” or worry about overt spiritual attacks.

    Attacks?!?!? As if confeticat was the devil in disguise and we’re powerless to stop the emotional escalations — or back down, take the high road, and move on.

    Pooh hit the nail on the head. Repeatedly. We had the power to stand, to refuse to join the fray, to not return — as pooh put it — evil for evil. Collectively, I think we did a poor job of that. For my part, I’m deeply ashamed.

    I don’t know confeticat. I may never know her. But I think it would be a shame to have her banned from BTA because we were equally as willing to engage in conflict as she was/is. If she goes, what reason does Mart have to not block all of us? For that matter, how can we be expected to enter the mission field, the real world, and engage others equally as challenging without succumbing to our baser natures when the going gets tough.

    Pooh was very wise. This was so beautifully put: “We do have to take responsibility for our own responses and we are given the Holy Spirit, so self control is within us…”

    I am incredibly humbled by Pooh’s words.

    I thank God for confeticat. She may not realize it, but she was used mightily by God to test my patience, self control, and love. I am grateful for my encounters with her. I learned a lot about myself.

    Bill

  183. phpatato says:

    Just got in from babysitting my twin grandtoddlers….

    Narrow Luke 15:10 I have been thinking about you – lots. Thank you for letting us know to go back a topic to read about it. I will be praying for him in his recovery.

    Cherielyn

    I will remember you in my prayers as well. Know that we bear a similar burden but possibly in different degrees.

    Tracey

    You will never know just how much your testimony touched me. God IS Love! Thank you for sharing with us.

    Bob

    Please reconsider your thought about leaving. I will miss you should you leave! You know, I have to have someone to keep me in the know about what goes on in the mother country! Never knew a Brit to say quit.
    :-)

    And like Maru, I’d like to apologise for my unpleasant postings, and Pooh, I know we sparred a few times. I truly am sorry. Narrow said it right when she questioned whether “it” (the whole episode) was a test in patience. I found out I don’t have as many as I thought I did.

    Maru…is it apple time where you live? We don’t pick apples here until mid-Sept or so. It is soon upon us though because I could smell a hint of apples in the air.

    Time for me to relax. Being a grandmother to 14 mo old twin boys is much harder than I imagined! I’m pooped.

    Have a good evening Dear friends

  184. phpatato says:

    Bill I guess you had posted while I was writing my previous post.

    You may not know it but God used you mightily for me in this. I found myself aspiring to be like you. I could sense you being a tiny bit exasperated by her but under the circumstances, she was good at pushing buttons.

    I think the word frustration comes to mind. I have never encountered anybody like her before in all my 58 years on this earth. But I admit, I live a very sheltered life. We all tried to knock down the wall she erected and it was extremely frustrating (for me) that she wouldn’t let her guard down – let anybody befriend her. I don’t know, I guess I expected with this being a “Christian” blog site, that those who join in are like-minded. I couldn’t figure out why she enjoyed being here when she disagreed with almost everything we said; was she here simply for the sick pleasure of ridiculing us and to take pleasure in sowing discord. I thought of the internet and came to the realization that there are indeed trollers out there that take great pleasure in doing just that…sow discord, yank chains and get those poor pathetic Christians going just for the fun of it. I pictured her shutting down at night and laughing at us, and that angered me. Then I was sad that there wasn’t at least one place on the whole internet where God-loving people could go to have a friendly, peaceful, Godly conversation….because I thought this place was it. And did I have thoughts that she was a devil..yes kinda. Her being a demon or a “principality” did cross my mind. And frightened, I knew then that it would take someone more mature than me to handle her…for I am yet a child…one who was lost for at least half her life before she was found.

    so there it is…for me. I leave crying, to sit quietly in prayer for I have lots to ask forgiveness for.

  185. narrowpathseeker says:

    BOB, I posted this last night on the other blog and I want to make sure you see it and hope that you don’t leave. “Bob and Maru, I am so very sorry that you thought for one moment that I was referring to either of you in my post Aug 21, at 1:52pm. I count you both among the many(too many to list) on here who write beautiful and uplifting, as well as, informative messages.”

    I would like to add that I believe there are some exceptionally sincere Godloving people here with truly kind hearts and pure motives and then a couple that I believe are not so much any of the above. I took a break when I felt things were out of control here, and after a few days decided that the good far outweighed the bad. I also decided to pray for those whose motives are questionable and keep silent. Please don’t leave, Bob.

    Pat, thank you for thinking of me. You have twin grandsons? Are they identical? I’m sure they are a handful but entertaining beyond words. I have twin maternal granddaughters that will be 18yo soon and they were so much fun to watch interact with one another! Even before they could talk they communicated with one another. I can’t explain it but it was like mental telepathy as they worked together to unlock things or to escape their play areas.lol. I think you have some astonishing moments to look forward to. God Bless.

    Cherilynn, I wrote a long message to you a few hours ago on the last thread, but when I submitted it, I lost the connection and it’s gone! (I finished this one, but highlighted and copied every few minutes and when I submitted this one, I lost it too!! I had it copied up to the last sentence ending in it’s gone!!! I came to my word processor and pasted what I had saved and I am finishing it here!! ) I will be praying for your husband and your son as well as for you and I’ve written it in my journal so I won’t forget to pray for your husband daily. There are some powerful prayer warriors on this site and I think you are in that number. Howbeit, I believe that it is very hard to stay focused on praying for an abuser when you’re still in the middle of the situation, so I will pray for him daily for you as I believe you did for me. Thank you Cherielyn..God Bless.

  186. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Narrow,
    I am not sure I read your post of Aug 21st so have not taken any offence to it?
    Off to work, 6:40am here, then church.
    Just a quick comment to say SORRY!
    I over reacted a bit last night.
    Mart was only tidying up the comments after deleting the last couple from me and confetcat.
    Sorry Mart!
    Like Pooh said, we should know better than to hit back at someone as we have all the fruits of the Spirit abiding in us, self control being the one that needs to be set in my life at least.

    Bob

  187. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Ps.

    Neil Armstrong died last night/yesterday.

    That seems to close a chapter in our history.
    only seems like yesterday I was watching that fuzzy black and white picture of his first step on the moon.

  188. royalpalm says:

    Dear Mart and BTA friends…

    First of all I’d like to let you friends know that sometimes when I post I feel like an outsider interrupting a nice conversation among close friends that is already going on. Keep up the friendships, prayers and encouragement! I wish I have more time in the computer so I can comment on some ideas presented and also about personal matters. I pray for Mart, this blog and each one as God brings you to my mind.

    Please know that innuendos, and name calling does not affect me at all. From people’s posts, one can conclude where they stand in their relationship with God. As far as I can see, everyone seems to be civil with each other, accepting each other’s ideas.

    Nevertheless, like Bob, I cannot stand people who openly mock God. I quote confeticat’s August 25, 2012 at 11:30 am post:
    “Bill, As Jesus my Lord has put up with “Christ” attached as a bloodsucker to his name for about 1700 years, i really don’t have sympathy for the people on this blog.”

    Perhaps this is just a joke, but to me it is not. This post of her name calling of Christ, alluding to Him what He has not done -under the guise of “Jesus my Lord” offends me very much… and if this mockery is tolerated, accepted, and allowed to continue, I would have to leave … as I would do in a crowd of people..

  189. Bill says:

    Good Morning Royalpalm (and all BTA friends),

    For what it’s worth, I never got the impression from confeticat that she was mocking God. Not once. On the contrary, my impression is that her faith in God was all she had. It was everything to her. That led her to be extremely protective of what she believed, and intolerant of those who disagreed with her beliefs (whatever they may be; I’m still not sure).

    Any “mockery” you saw was likely directed toward us.

    If I may play armchair counselor for a moment, my impression of confeticat is that she’s relatively alone, not necessarily isolated, but not really surrounded by family and friends, either. Her lack of social contact may be because she lives in a small town, or out in the country. Or it may be because she’s a loner. So her only interaction with the outside world may be church (in person or on TV), her books, and the Internet.

    That’s where BTA came in.

    We were a fertile sandbox for confeticat to play in. However, her social skills being what they are, she wasn’t very skillful at it. Instead of sharing the pail and allowing all of us to build sand castles (or, at least, cone-shaped piles of packed dirt that looked more like they just slid out of the pail), she constantly grabbed the toys and ran off with them. Instead of just carrying on in the sandbox ourselves, we kept wanting those toys back. So we chased her.

    I was constantly baffled by confeticat. But I never once got the impression that she was malicious. Just misguided. And never, as I wrote, did I think she mocked God. Her choices of words were clumsy, yes. But I believe fervently that Jesus was her all.

    In all honesty, if you feel the need leave every time you think Jesus is mocked, you’ll never associate with anyone in the world today. Mockery of our Lord and our faith is everywhere, at all times. You need thicker skin than that. Especially since with what I see coming down the pike in the near future, mockery will be the least of your concerns.

    @phpatato your post from 8:32 pm last night touched me deeply. What a sincere, kind-hearted saint you are!

    I understood and felt every word of your post. I know what you mean. And I’m sure Mart had to balance the need for a Christian “haven” against trying to be honest, truthful, and unprotected from the elements as possible. In other words, I’m sure he struggled with making BTA a safe place for Christians (new and old, alike) to gather and uplift one another…and making BTA a kind of gloves-off boot camp in which we sharpen each other (as iron sharpens iron!) because the world is a whole lot tougher than anything confeticat can throw at us.

    I’m overjoyed you’ve been found. I’m happy you’re here. I enjoy your posts. Please continue to share your thoughts with us.

    I feel like closing with something Forrest Gump said, “That’s all I have to say about that.”

    Have a blessed Sunday, everyone!

  190. SFDBWV says:

    Royalpalm, One of the problems with communicating thousands of miles apart and being afforded the opportunity to *hide* behind the computer screen, is that it can be all too impersonal.

    I have always tried to break down the barriers that make us feel detached and try to make everyone feel as I would if you came to my door or sat on my swing with us.

    People can be more open, honest and yes sometimes vulnerable as a result.

    I have had some battles here, but have also made some amazing friendships. One beautiful lady came all the way from Texas with her husband in spite of the fact that she was dying from lung cancer, just to set and visit with us and meet my son Matthew. She had a daughter who had died as a result of an auto accident about the same time Matt wrecked and felt a connection to me and my family.

    She died sometime later but her memory and presence remains always with us.

    The only way I know for real love to enter any of us is to open the door of our heart, in order to do that we have to be cordial friendly and open in our relationships.

    Please don’t feel like an outsider, if you come to my door you are always welcome and I will do my best to make you feel that way. Our mutual interest in and love of Christ our first common ground we can agree on and build from.

    Your friend in Jesus Christ

    Steve

  191. SFDBWV says:

    I didn’t talk about Confeticat and avoided being drawn into an inane conversation with *him*. I have no knowledge that Mart has blocked him other that pooh’s reference to it.

    All I will say is to Mart; looks like we were right after all he did bring some fire to the conversation. A little too much seasoning for the taste of most of us.

    Steve

  192. Mart De Haan says:

    I deleted some comments to try and lower the temp but have not blocked anyone.

  193. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    This morning as I woke, I found all of you on my mind. Most especially I thought of Confeticat and Jeff1. Seemingly “appeared” at BTA (or were heard) about the same time. In my mind and heart they must be joined, compared, contrasted and prayed for.

    Recallng how I stayed as close as I could to discussing the topic — I am not impressed with my success on that score. I could not make clear sense of Confeticat’s position, and kept struggling with her inconsiderate tone. It seems to me, without judging anybody, we can only behave as though we were in the same space — even though we are thousands of miles apart on the face of the planet, as you say Steve.

    As in any “church” (hope that’s not a bad word) — God is the host and we are the guests. Mart, you have opened this space/room/den/pastor’s study/fellowship hall and welcomed us in.

    I must only ponder at the arrival and departure of Confeticat and Jeff1 Just as in a fellowship on the ground in a physical place — the drama of visitors who come in to seek — (please fill in the blank) has so many variables, no one except the Lord can even say what took place.

    Phpatato, yes! Apples coming out of my ears. Will take some nice ones to church this morning to share. Bags and bags go to my friends out of town, who put them out for the deer. Beyond that, apples out of hand, pies,apple butter…the harvest is upon us here. Nothing to do but gather!

    Blessings,
    Maru

  194. remarutho says:

    Just a note on the Willamette Valley — also peaches, nectarines, blueberries, raspberries, figs, pears…very fruity (fruitful?) place. :o) Maru

  195. remarutho says:

    Confeticat, I do not mean to speak of you as though you are not here.

    Jeff1, I hope you will feel welcome to share your perspectives again some time.

    Yours,
    Maru

  196. confeticat says:

    Well, I wasn’t here because I thought Mart was going to start a new blog. Funny thing about liars (I’m not speaking of Mart), they lie even when the truth would serve the purpose better. Or when it makes no difference at all. (Rev. 21:27; 22:15). Jeff1 just appeared on this blog and I’ve been aropund for a dozen or so, yet we have been linked together as visitors. Your hospitality is showing.

    Also I would ignore the comments by the skeleton crew except that now you have concluded that I’m female. No one here has the gift of prophecy, I see. I confess I did mess with your minds once, but if you don’t mind, there are enough vestal virgins on this site already.

  197. narrowpathseeker says:

    Royal Palm, I am so sorry you have felt like an outsider at times and even more sorry if I have been a contributing factor to the problem. I come here to be amongst fellow Christians running the same race, to be helped along the way and hopefully to help others move along to the finish line.

    Sometimes I just don’t have time to read ALL of the messages and I regret that I don’t have time to respond to the countless inspiring, helpful, and heartwarming, teachers here. However, I DO take the time to pray for all the dear friends here and thank Him for leading me here. You, RoyalPalm have served this blog well and I am sorry I haven’t taken the time to tell you this before now. God Bless.

  198. confeticat says:

    Basket cases, but vestal virgins.

  199. narrowpathseeker says:

    Bob, I was referring to an apology you made to me on after that post and I wanted you to know that there was no need because it was in no way that YOU have ever ruffled my feathers.

    The Lord willing, I will be visiting Europe in the Spring. I have never been out of the country before, but I will be staying with my son in Switzerland and plan to do weekend trips to bordering countries and if time and money hold out…maybe England!! However, inasmuch as my granddaughter just emailed me that a package of oreo cookies in Switzerland is 15 dollars, I don’t hold much hope of money holding out! lol.

  200. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    What opens the Bible is the Holy Spirit,as Cherielyn says. Other spirits truly are not of any use…It seems to me all here should be clothed and in their right minds.

    In Christ,
    Maru

  201. confeticat says:

    Yes, moving right along, what is the purpose of this blog? Looking back before I came on, I never found one where you ever answered Mart’s question or reached a consensus on any topic. As Paul said of the Corinthians, you come together not for the better but for the worst. You seem to use the topic as an excuse to spout your Bible knowledge and to socialize. Why don’t you socialize privately, or in your own churches? Isn’t there anybody in your churches who likes you?

    Sowing discord, mentioned by someone, is causing trouble between people, not disagreeing. If a person can’t disagree then how are you going to fully pursue the subject?
    Speaking of other spirits, one of you said you are puppets of the enemy. So all I can conclude is that this must be your puppet show. I’m not a puppet so that’s why i don’t fit in.

  202. remarutho says:

    Hello Confeticat!

    Well, a nicely oiled basket will hold water — neat trick of the vestals. Not particularly helpful invoking Vesta at all, in my humble opinion… :o)

    Blessings in Christ,
    Maru

    I will say, truth is always welcome!

  203. confeticat says:

    And who decides what is truth?

  204. narrowpathseeker says:

    Confeticat, are you Gary?

  205. confeticat says:

    Am I Gary? No, dear. But I miss Gary, I wish he’d come back. We guys are outnumbered.

  206. confeticat says:

    Since no one is answering the question, let me help you out. Every church has a church whore (Rev. 2:20-23). Speaking metaphorically, every church group has one – you have one here. You play up to her – what does SHE think? You fawn over her – how does SHE feel about it? You know she’s of Satan but you’re afraid of her. You’re afraid to cross her because she is more powerful than you are. There is nothing weaker than a weak Christian – one with two masters. You are her sychophants and she plays you like a fiddle.

    She is also your Yield Manager. That’s why you never accompliosh anything. She makes sure you don’t. She changes the subject – gets in the way – whatever it takes. She will even throw her body in the path if necessary. She can be childish and foolish, or she can speak with an intellect, depending one her whim.

    She decides for you what is truth. Jesus said, You will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.

  207. poohpity says:

    Normally it is very easy to point out in others the areas lacking or are troubling within self. To some it is referred to a transference or the old finger pointing adage, pointing one finger at others while you have three pointing back at you. For instance; royal pain, forever messed, filibuster, hissy fit, changes the subject – gets in the way – whatever it takes, childish and foolish, or he can speak with an intellect, all describe what you have brought to these discussions. So while pointing out these things in us it seems you have actually been describing yourself. Matt 7:1-4 and special attention needs to be paid to Matt 7:5. Jesus seems to be teaching us to pay attention to the things within ourselves first before we try and fix them in others. Also see John 8:7NLT

  208. tracey5tgbtg says:

    I thought the name of this blog was Been THINKING About. That is why I found it so intriguing and joined in a year and a half ago. I think, probably too obsessively, about a lot of things.

    I think Mart puts up posts, not to get a correct answer, but to hear people’s thoughts. We can share and find that others share our views and that some have views that we hadn’t considered before.

    People get into conflicts sometimes, but they get resolved because they are following the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    I have not see anyone like confeticat on this blog ever before and I am confused. I do not understand your purpose confeticat. Your goal appears to be to cause pain and to hurt others.

    You do not have in mind the things of God. You have no joy, you have no peace and you want to destroy those things in everyone here.

    God knows our hearts. He knows every heart and I entrust myself to Him who judges justly.

  209. confeticat says:

    I stated a fact. Rev. 17 and 18 talk about the harlot. If that causes pain to anyone here, it must be because the shoe fits. There is little lasting joy and peace on this blog. i would like to bring you some.

    You mentioned the Holy Spirit. Three people, I think I counted, mentioned self-control in association with the Spirit. it is in Paul’s list of fruits of the Spirit.

    But self-control is not Spirit-control, it is the exact opposite. You can’t control yourself and be controlled by the Spirit. If he controls you, you don’t control yourself.

  210. tracey5tgbtg says:

    The following is something I typed & saved when the subject of Paul’s letters first came up, but I never sent it:

    I don’t understand the need to malign Paul. No one here worships Paul. I feel certain all here would say they worship the One God, the Living God, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the triune God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Yahweh, I AM, Jesus… Many names for the infinite God…

    Jesus revealed Himself to Paul and in all of his letters Paul points to God and gives Him all the glory. Paul says that his life prior to Jesus, while good by human standards was a waste until he knew Jesus. Paul’s letters give hope, joy and peace and his words have brought untold numbers to the feet of Jesus and the cross where they have accepted Jesus as Lord God and Savior.

    The greatest commandment is to love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. It is not a prerequisite of salvation to put trust in Paul. I feel Paul would be the first to say, “don’t look at me, look at Him.”

    I cannot discount Paul’s letters. I believe Paul was used by Jesus to further the kingdom of God.

    I could say more, but I will never again make such a long comment.

  211. kingdomkid7 says:

    Because I am pretty new to the blog, I have not shared a sense of upset or disturbance by the recent discussions. I do hope I have not been a source of any upset and sincerely apologize for any words that I may have ever said that hurt. I do appreciate this forum and never cease to learn from you all. Thanks, Mart!

  212. confeticat says:

    Yours wasn’t that long. Something has messed up the Church somewhere, Tracey. Let’s see if we can get to the bottom of it instead of putting our heads in the sand. God can use anyone, even an unbeliever! If something Paul wrote is wrong, it’s wrong. And I showed you why it is wrong.

    You see, before I started, the Lord had me fall in love with Paul! I went through his trials with him and came to see his heart. I majored on Paul, so to speak. So I would not be maligning him. Then I let him go and saw the Kingdom, and the difference. It was much easier then to see the difference.

  213. foreverblessed says:

    There was such good news narrowpathseeker wrote in the last topic, “the story behind everything” August 24, 10.22 pm.
    A very difficult person has accepted Jesus Christ! That was such good news, we have prayed for this person, and now his acceptance of Jesus. This is such good encouragement to keep on praying for difficult people.
    And then Tracey’s story how God told her, that nothing can change His love for her. And His love is towards everybody, no matter how difficult they are. He waits like the father of the lost son, till he comes back.
    Let’s keep on praying!

  214. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Confeticat – I agree that God can use anyone, even unbelievers. I know something is wrong. It’s called sin. We live in a fallen world. There is only One who has overcome sin. Jesus has conquered sin and death.

    I read a quote today from Groucho Marx, “Be open minded, but not so open minded that your brains fall out.”

    There are things in the Bible that are hard to understand. But I will never try to change them. God’s ways and thoughts are far above mine. I do not expect to see God clearly while I am still in the flesh. I simply trust Him.

  215. poohpity says:

    For those who claim to have the indwelling Spirit of God within comes also the ability to understand scripture. Those who have done thorough study of the original letters have found that the Bible has only changed 2% in all the years since it has been put together. Jesus gave 2 commands for us to follow one is found in Matt 22:38,39 and that one is very evident in how we treat others. If we say we love God but treat people terribly then the Love of God is not found in that person’s heart no matter what comes out of their mouth. Because of what Jesus did for us, who are we to not show that same compassion, grace and mercy to others because we did not deserve it either.

  216. confeticat says:

    That Groucho was some philosopher, wasn’t he! Yes, it’s called sin. And our living in a fallen world is no excuse. “The one who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (I John 3:8,9).

    God destroyed the works of the devil through Jesus, both in his temptation by the devil and through his death. When he died his disciples thought it was all over. Someone who is victorious over the devil would be expected to look like a conquorer, engaged in spiritual warfare. But Jesus did just the opposite – he died. And if we are to live in the victory he won for us, we too must do the opposite of what would be expected. We must be born again.

  217. poohpity says:

    con, just a little FYI, I do not point people to listen to anything I say, with all that I am, I point them to the Lord and to read the Bible. I am just a person on the same journey as everyone else and at one time I was a whore/prostitute but Jesus changed my life and I have not known a man for 23 years but I have felt the Love of the God/Man that whole time and He alone has provided for all my needs.

  218. Bill says:

    Hi con,

    First, a mea culpa. I believe I referred to you as a she. I apologize. From now on, when referencing you in the third person, and I get tired of using confeticat, I’ll use “he.” Thank you for the correction — if I rightly understood the meaning of your comment about vestal virgins.

    Second, I hope you noted tracey’s comment (from 12:34pm today), as well as the consternation here on Mart’s blog over the past week or so. tracey wrote:

    “I have not see anyone like confeticat on this blog ever before and I am confused. I do not understand your purpose confeticat. Your goal appears to be to cause pain and to hurt others.”

    That’s not an errant statement, con. tracey5tgbtg expressed something that all of us here have.

    I was saddened to see that instead of proceeding today on a more humble note, you came out with both guns blazing, picking up right where you left off, seemingly taking no note of the grief you left in your wake last night.

    You wrote, “You seem to use the topic as an excuse to spout your Bible knowledge and to socialize. Why don’t you socialize privately, or in your own churches? Isn’t there anybody in your churches who likes you?

    “Sowing discord, mentioned by someone, is causing trouble between people, not disagreeing. If a person can’t disagree then how are you going to fully pursue the subject?”

    I don’t think I need to remind you that your presence here is by Mart’s good graces, just as ours is. He’s given you plenty of leeway. But you’ve used it to push people right to the brink. It’s okay to disagree. I dig a lively debate. But, you don’t just disagree. You sow discord.

    Please use your intellect and your understanding of the Scriptures in a kinder, more compassionate manner, treating us with respect. Also, please speak plainly, without obscuring your meaning or obfuscating the issue(s) at hand. We appear to be an intelligent, well-spoken lot on BTA. This isn’t our first rodeo. We have a good grasp of the Bible and the world. So there’s no need to talk to us as if we’re children, or people incapable of understanding the depths to which you understand the Scriptures. Therefore, please be more aware of your tone, as well as your choice of words. It’s not always the substance of what you post that hurts people; it’s how you say it.

    I would like you to stick around to share your thoughts with us. But not at the expense of common courtesy and love for the brethren. Mart’s a very patient man. But I don’t think even his patience is limitless. Please don’t waste this opportunity to interact with us, teach us, and learn from us. It’s quite possible we’re all here together by God’s choice. So let’s see what He has in store for us. Deal?

    Again, to quote Forrest, “That’s all I have to say about that.”

    @pooh, I didn’t know that about your background. It’s no wonder your posts express such deep compassion, wisdom, and grace. Thank you!

    By the way, Groucho possessed a tremendous wit. I’m glad tracey quoted him. Made me laugh.

  219. confeticat says:

    Hi Bill, If I really thought I’d hurt someone or sown discord I would ask your forgiveness, but I know you all are putting me on. You are the ones who are rude and talk down to me, but I grin and bear it. You have to earn respect. Perhaps the “tone”(?) you hear in writing is on the receiving end, because I have no ill will toward anyone. You are making mountains out of molehills and you personally, Bill, have changed your tone since the last time you wrote, though we have had no correspondence between us. I cannot be responsible for the moods you find yourself in. That you referred to me as a ‘she’ is such a minor thing it’s not even worth mentioning. Anyone that sensitive shouldn’t be in minionstry of any kind. Maybe you were going easier on me when you thought I was a woman, and now you’re going to sock it to me? And the ones who are confused, it’s not by me. Now if I haven’t spoken plainly, that is my fault, and I’ll try to do better. I’ve tried to keep it brief and not filibuster (lol) But you said you all have a good grasp of the Bible. if i spelled it out any plainer you’d say I’m talking down to you, which you may have already said, I don’t remember.

    Jesus told me “Anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. And anyone who rejects you is rejecting me And anyone who rejects me is rejecting God, who sent me.” So I don’t sweat the small stuff.

    You have the wrong idea of love. Love is wanting the best for others. Not the mush you all dish out. I’m sorry, but I just tell it like it is. Live with it. And speaking of Groucho, where’s my cigar?