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For the Love of Brannigan

In our last post we used a “dog shoots hunter” news piece to talk about how God shows mercy for unintentional wrongs.

But there are other examples of animals who are put down and destroyed after having aggressively attacked a child, stranger or owner.

A UK paper tells the sad story of a woman who died of an infection after being bitten on the hand by Brannigan her beloved Rottweiler dog. Friends say she refused to get treatment because she was afraid authorities would insist on euthanizing the dog if they knew her “gentle giant” had bitten her.

There’s more to the story. Brannigan had once saved the woman’s life when it dragged her out of a burning building.

This time, however, the Rottweiler’s bite may have crossed the line, at least in someone’s mind.

So let’s come back to our earlier discussion.

Does God show mercy only to those who didn’t know what they were doing?  I’m thinking of the Apostle Paul’s statement that, even though he now considers himself the chief of sinners, he believes God showed him mercy because his prior life of blasphemy, persecution, and abuse were done in ignorance and unbelief (1Tim 1:13-16).

In another letter to the Corinthians Paul said that those who crucified Jesus had done so in ignorance and unbelief (1Cor 2:8). Peter made the same allowance (Acts 3:17), as did the Lord himself as he hung from the cross (Luke 23:34).

So what happens then if we are wondering whether we are like Brannigan? Have we at some point crossed the line into a conscious willful, pre-meditated act that God will not forgive (in this life at least…. and maybe also not in the life to come?).

One way of answering this might be to reason that all sin is done in some measure of ignorance and unbelief. In other words, if we could see any sin with the full knowledge of God, and while trusting him completely—who would go there? (Do you resonate with that?)

Or let’s try this.  If God is honored by the mercy he shows  even  unintentional sins done in unbelief and ignorance, how much greater would be the mercy and compassion he shows us when we admit with regret that we had at least some knowledge of the wrong they were doing!?

Or is the most compelling answer that God, in his Son, paid the ultimate, eternal, infinite price, once and for all, for our sin, without ever saying that he was only paying the price for our mistakes?

Or are there other options?

What’s your take?

 


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39 Responses to “For the Love of Brannigan”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    I think Mart that sin is sin whether done in ignorance or purposely. I also believe that we instinctively know right from wrong, unless we are mentally inept.

    In looking at the murder of Jesus by the Roman governor, every person involved knew that they were murdering an innocent man. Even the religious leaders of Israel violated their own Mosaic laws in arranging His death.

    Jesus forgave them knowing that they did not understand the event at all and began the period of man and God known as *grace*. Yet who was He forgiving? The Roman soldiers who whipped and beat Him and nailed Him to the cross? The crowds of people who shouted “crucify Him”? The religious leaders who arranged the crucifixion? You and I?

    Jesus’ statement seems to ask forgiveness towards the ignorant more than towards those among us who know exactly what their intentions are. Or is it? Is it possible that even the guilty among us are truly ignorant of the full consequences of sin?

    I don’t want to turn too many pages and confuse the topic by creating abstract topics within this one so I will rest for now and pick it back up after while.

    32 this morning and still dark as I write this.

    Steve

  2. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All –

    This question must be framed concretely in the context of two species: canine and human. Brains differ and therefore the instinct/survival – obedience/compliance – love/affection motivations are worlds apart. We cannot know whether the Creator God “puts down” some humans for heinous crime. God may or may not do this, as God chooses. We as a society do euthanize dogs that attack humans, and some humans who commit heinous murder. We as humans cannot be like Brannigan the dog categorically. A human brain is more complex – and we are spirit, as God is Spirit. (John 4:24)

    On the first question, it seems to me that all sin is committed in unbelief. The unbelief in God usually implies that the person sinning is the god of his/her own realm. That one’s judgment and autonomy is the source authority for the action. The ignorance of God’s calling and majesty is willful, the self-regard of the sinner has displaced God’s authority with his/her own.

    God is honored by the mercy God shows. All who see God in some degree of God’s fullness praise and honor and worship God in celebration of all God’s power and love. God’s sovereign loving-kindness pours forth from God’s person at all times without wavering in any degree. So, God’s calling of hearts and minds and spirits of human beings is unceasing. The question is:

    Do humans hear and obey the calling of God in Christ? Or do we die like the first criminal hanging beside Jesus on a cross the day of his execution? (Luke 23:39, 40, 41 42, 43) Do we turn back to our Creator and seek his mercy and forgiveness for the sin we have committed?

    Blessings,
    Maru

  3. oneg2dblu says:

    Goodmorning All… my thoughts on this are summed up in one word, REPENT! We can all repent. That is one god-given process that separates us from all animal behavior all sinful acts and is the only way we can know we are truly following the entire Word of God, following the entire teachings of Christ, and not living by the chance that all sin will automatically become invisible by an all knowing God because we have chosen to think differently. That choice is very much like the ignorance and unbelief of many today who choose to act with the same qualities of the dog who can not repent.
    Hard words for those who follow a popular modern doctrine that even denies the power of true repentance.
    Many here will feel like your hand now been bitten again but you would rather die from infection than report the evil that has gone unmentioned., unrepented. Gary

  4. poohpity says:

    Human beings who sit in judgement of other human beings and say they no longer sin after they have accepted Christ is calling God a liar. (1 John 1:10) Sinners who seek forgiveness will be accepted into God’s Kingdom, while those who think they are to good to sin will not be accepted. (as per the discussion with the Pharisee who thought of himself as good and the difference with woman of the streets) Luke 7:36-48.

    How can one repent if they do not recognize the tendency to sin. God knows all of us inside and out the unintentional and the intentional. It seems God’s capacity to forgive and show mercy is only limited to our recognition of sin.

    The dog’s behavior was limited by the teaching of the master. She would not accept the fact that the dog was a bitter does that make the dog bad, no it held her accountable for the knowing the dog bites and not doing anything about it which ultimately lead to death. Just like our children when they are angry and lash out at everybody and everything then are not corrected and taught respect for others they get rejected. Just like the dog owner made excuses for the dog, parents makes excused for their children too. God does not make excuses for us He lets us know we are wrong but gives us the ability to come before Him and ask for forgiveness. If He made excuses for our bad behavior we would continue to act the same way.

    Those who think they are good compared to the person who admits to their sin which one will find a place in heaven. Luke 18:9-14

  5. foreverblessed says:

    Grace and peace to you Gary, the popular sentence by which many letters were started: Grace and peace through God the Father and Jesus Christ His son.
    1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:2

  6. poohpity says:

    I think we have problems when we compare our sinful state to other human beings rather than to a Holy God then we can see more clearly how much we fall short. When we compare ourselves to other persons we think we are better than some and worse than others but that is not in my opinion who we are to look at. It is who we are, compared to God and what His intent for us is to be then we can join the tax collector beating our chest and asking our God for forgiveness, mercy and grace. Only when we can see what is truly within each of us can we understand the fullness of His mercy.

  7. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Nice to see you Gary!
    Missed you!

  8. SFDBWV says:

    Funny I am listening to Eric Church, one of Matt’s CD’s, in the first song he sang about believing Jesus will come back and on the next song he sang about coming from a long line of sinners like him. and in the third one he is singing about being one of the chosen few.

    I mention this because we are all that salt of the earth Jesus spoke of and how we live is what believing Jesus is all about, not just how we die.

    All fall short indeed which is why we should start each day like it is the only day, not yesterday or tomorrow, but right now. Go to the well of living water and be renewed every day, be in prayer at all times and ask for forgiveness of God and man and give forgiveness equally and liberly to all.

    Gary I appologise for my sharp and stinging remarks that hurt you, it was not my place to say anything and I am sorry, it will not happen again. Please forgive me.

    Bob, I love you my friend and Matt says to tell you he is praying hard for you and you’re now on his *list*.

    Steve

  9. SFDBWV says:

    His Sparrow, while you are looking up the music Matt likes be sure to find “The Grascals” and particularly one they sing with Dolly Parton titled “I Am Strong”.

    Steve

  10. poohpity says:

    Mart you asked, “In other words, if we could see any sin with the full knowledge of God, and while trusting him completely—who would go there? (Do you resonate with that?) I completely resonate with that even though I do not have the full knowledge of God I have more than enough information to see and have regret for what I have done to be so very, very grateful to our Lord and Savior for who He is and what He has done for me.

  11. bubbles says:

    “For the Lord is good; His merchy endureth forever.”
    I love this verse. I got this and stuck it on the wall in my dining room. . . .except it’s a newer version, and they changed “mercy” to “love”. I like “mercy” better because wrapped up in the love is mercy.

    Any way we look at sin, I will be eternally grateful that our Father is merciful and longsuffering because I mess up so many times so badly and I do not deserve his love, forgiveness, and I praise Him for His mercy. I cannot understand his patience. I would have given up on me a long time ago.

  12. Bill says:

    This is an interesting topic, one that could open theological cans of worms.

    If I may, I’d like to pry the lid off said can for a minute. Please bear with me.

    At face value, the last few paragraphs of Mart’s post could indicate three things:

    1. All those who sin do so ignorantly and, therefore, should not be held accountable — or, at least, they are judged differently from those who knowingly sin.

    Here’s what I mean:

    “Does God show mercy only to those who didn’t know what they were doing? I’m thinking of the Apostle Paul’s statement that, even though he now considers himself the chief of sinners, he believes God showed him mercy because his prior life of blasphemy, persecution, and abuse were done in ignorance and unbelief (1Tim 1:13-16).

    “In another letter to the Corinthians Paul said that those who crucified Jesus had done so in ignorance and unbelief (1Cor 2:8). Peter made the same allowance (Acts 3:17), as did the Lord himself as he hung from the cross (Luke 23:34).

    There’s another way to look at the deep theological implications of Mart’s post.

    2. Universalism. In other words, Jesus’ death on the cross removed the punishment from ALL people. After all, if those who crucified Jesus can be forgiven because of their ignorance (“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do”), what does that mean for all people on the earth who sin? Are they forgiven, too?

    This is akin to the question that everyone asks: “What about people in remote parts of the world, or even people here in the U.S., who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and be saved? Do they go to hell?

    What if the Gospel IS that all people are saved and that Jesus is our role model to show us how to live lives that please God?

    Here’s what I mean from Mart’s post:

    “Or is the most compelling answer that God, in his Son, paid the ultimate, eternal, infinite price, once and for all, for our sin, without ever saying that he was only paying the price for our mistakes?

    “One way of answering this might be to reason that all sin is done in some measure of ignorance and unbelief. In other words, if we could see any sin with the full knowledge of God, and while trusting him completely—who would go there? (Do you resonate with that?)”

    I am not for a minute suggesting Mart is espousing universalism. Nor am I. However, the line of questioning put forth in this post opens the door — in my mind — to considering all aspects of what Jesus did on the cross. It gets at the very heart of what the Gospel is, what sin is, and what Jesus’ death on the cross accomplished.

    Did Jesus remove all the sins of the world — once for all? Or did Jesus only remove the sins of those who are saved in Him?

    Either way, Jesus died for the sins of the world…all sins — past, present, and future.

    But that opens up yet another line of questioning.

    3. The age of accountability. Infant baptism versus adult baptism. At what point are people responsible for their sins? Along with that is the idea that if children die before they are saved, some believe they are not sent to hell to suffer for all eternity. What God, they reason, would condemn innocent children to hell?

    That line of reasoning gets into all sorts of fun things, most importantly Predestination and Election.

    Again, I am not espousing any theological beliefs. I am merely pointing out that we do not know all things regarding the Bible and Jesus’ death on the cross. We know Jesus died as a penalty for the sins of the world. We know Jesus was planned to die for our sins from before the beginning of the creation. (However, even that gets into questions put forth in such books as “God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question — Why We Suffer,” by Bart D. Ehrman.) But beyond that, I’m not sure we know everything there is to know. We only know what we think we know. But is that all there is to know?

    Okay. Now I’ll seal up the can again.

    See? No worms.

    Carry on.

  13. poohpity says:

    Bill first you stated “Did Jesus remove all the sins of the world — once for all? Or did Jesus only remove the sins of those who are saved in Him?” I would say to me that neither are a correct. I think it is better and I could be wrong but Jesus did not remove the sin but rather paid the penalty for them. Trust me it would be nice if the sins were removed all together but as long as we have free will they will exist.

    Did Jesus die for those who do not call what they do as sin, yes. We have to make a conscience decision to accept what was done on the Cross. Can a child accept this atonement? If they are old enough to know right from wrong then I would say, yes. If not then I would think that God knows they have yet to learn the laws much less break them. I think a loving God would have made a provision for anyone who may have never heard of the atoning work of the Cross. I think that is why the end will not be until all have had a chance to hear the Gospel that is why missionaries are so fervent to go to all the people groups of the world with the mission given us so that all will know.

    I also think that the time when He returns to the earth during the second coming people are given yet another chance to hear the Gospel and even see because the whole world will be aware at that coming. It will not be a secret or for just a few it will amaze all the on lookers. That is just my take from what the Bible says but I could be wrong nothing new.

  14. davids says:

    Gary and Bob, nice to hear from you. I have been praying for you both, as I do for others here.

    Going to the US for couple weeks, but I’ll be following this blog when I can.

    Blessing, David

  15. oneg2dblu says:

    Great posts by everyone.
    Accountability is a “key issue” for all born again believers because that new birth is also to be the start of a “new walk for life” with the Lord. A lifelong walk of change, a lifestyle of becoming more Christ-like due to the Blessed Indwelling of His Holy Spirit, Our God-given Helper, which can change our everything.
    I like how Charles Spurgeon defines our new ability to see right from wrong as he says, “Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right.”
    To me, that makes even those gray areas become more and well defined through the leading of the Spirit which is deposited within us.
    Like Steve has said, we all intrinsically have this right and wrong thing built into us unless there is a malfunction of the brain.
    The unsaved man we came from also has this worldly discernment, but the Saved Holy Spirit Indwelling person we now have become helps us to see that, “All a man’s ways seem right to him but in the end lead to death.”
    It is talking about spiritual death, a place that the worldly already inhabit, and the Saved are saved from inhabiting our dead spirit filled life again if we choose to follow the Holy Spirit within us.
    Unless we choose to believe otherwise, then we walk otherwise and we find we do not need to change.
    I believe we must change if we are to listen to that still small voice within us, or we walk in the path of the worldly who are spiritually dead already. We must bear fruit or we are just like the rest of the world.
    Sorry to ruffle some feathers, but in love I believe we all know the truth, and the truth is what sets us free, for our getting it “almost right” is surely not the Holy Spirit’s leading. Gary

  16. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… I like your statement,” The dog’s behavior was limited by the teaching of the master.”
    I immediately thought, “If we could only be like dogs for Christ…limited in our behavior by the teachings of Our Master, we would only need to Obey Him!”
    Then you finished with this gem, “If He made excuses for our behavior we would continue to act the same way.”
    Unfortunately, some who claim to follow the Master today must have found an excuse for themselves somewhere, as they proudly claim their Salvation is in Him, and then continue to act the same way they were before salvation saying, “Nothing can snatch me out of the Master’s Hand.”
    To me, we continue to bite the master’s hand by twisting his words to our liking and not changing our behavior and following in His Ways. Aren’t we then leaving everything in the master’s hands and removing all our accountability to him?
    I love being accountable to my Master, and I love being trained by Him because I know his training IS how we are also being changed and loved by Him.
    If we can really love others, then why can’t we also train others as well?
    Biblically speaking, part of being a Disciple for Christ is to train up or disciple others.
    Sorry if I’ve muddied the water but I feel accountability is huge, and obedience a master’s true joy! Gary

  17. His Sparrow says:

    First I gotta get past the woman and her dog…just looking at their expressions in

    the picture, the dog’s story, her story. I would say, she laid down her life for her

    friend.

    Now I gotta sop up the tears before my computer has an electrical short and I’ll continue later…

    John 15:13, 17 (KJ) Jesus said

    “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

    These things I command you that ye love one another.”

  18. fadingman says:

    David’s sins in committing adultery and murder were entirely premeditated; he definitely didn’t do it in ignorance. And yet, God freely forgave him when he confessed his sin to Nathan.

    Even though I sin in ignorance, I also sin knowingly at times. We all do. And God still forgives us of *all* our sins even when we confess only the sins we know of (1 John 1:9). That ‘all’ has to include both the witting and unwitting sins, for all of our sins were laid on Jesus, not just the ‘mistakes’.

    Mistake or not, forgiveness is never deserved.

  19. poohpity says:

    Gary, who is this you continue to talk about that twists the Master’s words and lives their life as if they were never saved? I know that is true of some who call themselves Christians but they will answer to God that is not our job to uproot those tares from the wheat that will be the job of those God has appointed. The job we are given after being freed from the consequences of our sin is to do good and to spread the Gospel. John the Baptist is dead and his purpose was fulfilled by telling people to repent and turn from their sins and point people to the Savior now it is the Holy Spirit that convicts people of their sin and when we put ourselves in that place we are experiencing pride. Jesus did not even come to do that, He came to save. Gary, just make sure you do not do what you accuse others of doing that is all you are responsible to God for is your own sin. There will never be another John the Baptist because the reason he was born has been accomplished and there is no need for another one. So make sure you do not twist God’s word or continue to live as if you were never saved, I think that will be a pretty big job all in it’s self. Continue to read God’s Word because then you will see it is God who changes our lives and transforms us. It could be that by talking about the same issue over and over you may be trying to tell us that is what you are struggling with because you seem so consumed with it.

  20. SFDBWV says:

    Bill is so right this subject is rife with abstract possibilities and in my own thinking that is the way for good conversation to grow.

    Gary has, I think, an excellent point; once we accept Christ into our heart we have a responsibility to Him. If we are to follow Bill’s opening of the concept that all people are saved through Jesus’ act of sacrifice, then what is the one difference between the ignorant uninformed soul who may never had heard the Gospel and one who has?

    “Accountability”.

    Matthew 7: 21, 22, 23 clearly states that there are some who will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven even though they said they had given prophesy, cast out devils and did wonderful works in His name.

    This is one of those scary comments from Jesus that many want to ignore because it places doubt on some hearts. However in the same string of verses Jesus also says that those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

    As said earlier we all are born with an understanding of right and wrong, in fact lying has to be learned.

    Jesus has said on numerous occasions that to Love God with all our hearts and souls and to love our neighbor as ourselves fulfills the law; only thing remaining is following after Jesus.

    So it would appear that if a person ignorant of the Gospel lived a life of loving their neighbor the worst thing they may face in death is judgment from God for having done so.

    Whereas a person who heard the Gospel and accepted it escapes judgment for sin still must answer to Jesus for our lives (Romans 14: 11, 12, 13).

    Yet forgiveness is still available through the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

    Enough to chew on for now; 30 degrees and heavy frost again this morning.

    Steve

  21. Bill says:

    Thanks, Steve. I hoped that my peek into the worm-filled can wouldn’t muddy the waters or cause a rift here. So far, so good.

    I think what all of these comments illustrate is a wide variety of insight and understanding of the subject matter. In other words, not everyone agrees on what the Bible says, or what we believe/think it says.

    That’s a good thing. But it’s something people should note. Because it’s important.

    Over the years, I’ve read hundreds of theological/Christian books and have been part of scores of churches, often from widely different denominational viewpoints. The only common denominator is this: They all think their interpretation of Scripture is right. Implicit in their belief is that all other denominations are wrong.

    For example, I’ve been involved with Charismatic churches who actually pray for OTHER CHURCHES to be saved, to see the light, to fully understand God’s outpouring. The message from the pulpit is one of haughtiness thinly veiled as piety.

    Here’s my point: when we admit that many denominations, and most Christians, have a different interpretation of the Scriptures we’ll instantly be wiser and closer to Jesus’ heart of compassion than we were just seconds prior to the epiphany.

    This is why I often post something in these threads like this: “I’ve learned over the years that I know nothing for a certainty” or “If there’s one thing I know it’s that I don’t know.”

    That doesn’t mean I’m ignorant. It means I’ve realized in a room full of Christians I’m likely to get as many interpretations of the Scriptures as there are Christians. I accept that.

    This is also why I always harp on love being the common denominator. The only thing all Christians should have in common is love. Yet, love usually takes a back seat to so-called “truth” — purity of Scriptures, how to be “holy,” how to truly and accurately worship the Lord, etc. I know Christians who look down their noses and condemn everyone who doesn’t believe what their church teaches. All those who don’t believe what their pastor teaches is hell-bound and sin-filled. I’m not kidding. I had conversations with these people. They actually had the cojones to tell me that authors like John Piper and A.W. Pink (especially his book “The Sovereignty of God”) were absolutely, irrefutably, unassailably the word of God.

    God is not that narrow. The Bible is not that simple. The Christian life is not that black and white, easy to categorize.

    Regarding Mart’s latest topic, I think we could all be right. Or we could all be wrong.

    And you know what? It doesn’t matter either way.

    What matters is not what we think we can “prove” or hold up to scientific analysis. Scripture is not to be sliced, placed in solution, and put on slides to be examined with an electron microscope. They are not daggers to be wielded blindly, wildly, like in a dark alley when we hear footsteps come up behind us. But that’s how most Christians seem to use Scripture — like each verse is a dagger to be thrust into the rib cage of anyone who don’t see it the same way.

    I think the Bible is far, far deeper than we’ve come to think it is. I think the Christian life is vastly different from what we’ve been taught over the centuries. I believe we’ve majored in the minors and have missed it, somehow, along the way.

    But I see, out of the corner of my eye, another worm wriggling. I’m going to pop it back into the can labeled “WORMS” and put the can back on the shelf.

    As always, I offer opinions only. I have no facts, no proof to support what I’m saying. They’re strictly opinions based on a few decades of study and observation. I could be totally wrong. So don’t rely on what I’m saying. And please don’t tear into it like I’m fresh kill and you’re a Grizzly mom with cubs to feed. Take what I write for what it’s worth — opinions from one guy sitting with a cup of Light Roast in hand, watching the sun rise and observing fellow breakfasters wipe sleep from their eyes.

  22. SFDBWV says:

    As I read your post Bill I was smiling and even chuckling as what you say has such a parallel with me and I dare say many.

    Able to laugh now, as I think back to when I first came to this blog, there was a poster who said that they really liked BTA blog because it wasn’t like other ones where it was a battle ground of who is right and who is wrong…..Alas it didn’t take too long to see that every room filled with people have the full spectrum of opinions. And sadly none as vehemently brought forth as from church people.

    Anyone who thinks that they have topped out on their understanding of Scripture at any point is fooling only themselves, yet it doesn’t take much for some to think they have and show their true self in their defense of that position.

    Personally I have plenty of questions that can be answered from scripture, but if I am not yet able to absorb it I can’t no matter how much someone else may try to present it to me. This is one of those epiphanies that The Holy Spirit is so good at doing, opening our heart to understanding when we are at that point where we can understand and are ready to.

    If we just consider for the moment that many of the questions we have, are not new questions, but for *thousands* of years have been sifted through by un-numbered multitudes of scholars with out ever coming to a consensus, it should sober us up and calm us down as to thinking we will solve or prove them in our conversations here or anywhere. To think we can may be the biggest laugh of all and the crown of *piousness*.

    Which brings me to the fact that I also agree Bill, that how we treat others is central to Christian living, and love central to that.

    I also understand there are obstacles to that and overcoming them is what it means to learn and grow in Christ to the point we too can hang from our own crosses and ask forgiveness of them responsible for placing us there.

    Steve

  23. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… thanks so much for your ever so telling reply. I’ll quote, “It could be that by talking about the same issue over and over you may be trying to tell us that is what you are struggling with because you seem so consumed with it.”

    Bless you my Sister in Christ you’ve hit the golden vein that runs through my heart. It is my god-given concern for others who claim to have His Power residing in them, but ALSO continue to find an excuse for their continuous repetitive disobedient sinning as well.

    I’m not talking here about any incidental, or occasionally occurring, seemingly innocent, or accidental events of our daily living, like stepping on an ant, thus taking a life, a sin. But, the ever more calculated, always un-repented, never ending disobedience
    that some Doctrinal Beliefs can and do make allowances or excuses for.

    To me, the OSAS tenancies are very dangerous teachings for any new believers to be caught in as they make all our sin as a mere echo or resulting happenstance because our being once saved says, we are now uncontrollably and unconditionally living for a future with Christ, No matter what!

    This is why I love this question posed by Anne Graham Lotz in her book Magnificent Obsession, where she asks her readers, “Whose permission to sin have you accepted?”

    Now there’s Accountability 101!

    To many here it boils down to their own belief in a modern doctrine of Unconditional Security, which can never be settled by all other doctrinal beliefs, any human effort in the sighting of supporting, and or questioning verses, because once you buy into this doctrine and its falsehood prevails, and you are doomed by believing it, unless you will also repent.

    To this still learning disciple (me) that is a dangerous doctrine which gives any follower an open permission to sin freely and to also be unrepentant, because all your sins that separate us from God are already forgiven, thus you can never fall way from the beloved position of this teaching and its implied condition of Unconditional Security.

    It renders the Helper helpless, and allows for a no need to change anything as it makes repentance unnecessary as well.

    If we take today’s ODJ writer Poh Fang Chia seriously,
    “God’s promises- as well as His warnings- are for real. Every word will be fulfilled, for He has both the will and the ability to accomplish it.”

    It seems to me every time I speak any convicting truth about born again believer’s sins here your favorite premise is always the same, over and over, thinking that must be a voice that is pride filled. Just a thought… given in love, Gary

  24. poohpity says:

    Steve, I think that one verse is so very important to everything we claim in Matt 7:23. For us to really know Jesus we have to seek after Him with all that we are. Jesus knows who seeks after Him and wants to know Him and that is all that really matters. It may seem one way to one and another way to another but all that really matters is what Jesus knows of us and there is no intent that is hidden from Him, no matter what we try and get others to see He knows the truth and knows what lies in our hearts. We are an open book to the Master.

    If our relationship has to do with just seeking knowledge for knowledge sakes, He knows. If we go on what Scholars teach and seek their wisdom rather than getting it right from God Himself, He knows. We have the Bible that teaches how to love others by how God loves us but God knows whether we are seeking affirmations from man or from God. People know when someone really wants to get to know them or are not really interested in anything other than a surface relationship of words and platitudes. God knows and that is really all that matters. People can tell too if they really pay attention. Truth always comes out and it always wins out.

  25. oneg2dblu says:

    For the love of Branningan, do we need to know the outcome of his eventual demise to have peace within us?
    For the Love of God, do we need to know the demise of all here, to have peace within us today?
    No, we need to only be concerned with ever reaching out to others, to spread the love we can, while we can, in any form we can, as long as it is today!
    Hello Mart, Matt, Steve, Genna, Bob, Bill, Deb, Forever, Sparrow, Freedom, Davids, all the unmentioned, those who read, those who come here just to have His Peace within us, you are in my Prayer for today!
    Dark Roasted, I’m talking coffeee here…Gary

  26. poohpity says:

    I guess Gary, if we love others with the love we are shown by Christ it will show by how we treat others. Then I would pose this thought, just for instance. This blog was started by Mart who brings up a topical discussion about what ever issues he finds interesting. Then out of respect and love for him we follow the guidelines so that the conversations do not lead to problems. Some discuss the topic brought forth and expand on it to give our thoughts which leads to healthy conversations but the minute someone comes on and feels his topics are not worth the effort or time to think about but lead the conversation in a different direction which is totally against the guidelines then justifies their lack of respect by saying we are allowed to break the rules whenever we want. That to me is just like the guidelines we are given in scripture on how to treat others.

    If we are unable to follow those few very protective guideline which do not take away our freedom to think and discuss but they protect the freedoms of others. When we disregard those simple instructions that are based on allowing freedoms that do not infringe on the freedoms of others then I would think that makes the Lord please with respectful conversations. It seems to me that there are many web sites that have a base premise of chatting so why make this one that type when it was meant for topical discussions.

    So are we showing the love of Christ just to do what we want when we want? Those guidelines are for every site in the RBC ministries which are a reflection of honoring others above ourselves. Are we, when we bring up any topic other than the one we are currently talking about, honoring Mart above ourselves? He does not restrict nor does he force the rules on anyone just as Jesus does not force God’s will on anyone it takes a conscience choice out of love for God to follow the guidelines we are given for the treatment of others. If we do not read scripture then we do not even know what those guidelines are.

    Because of God’s mercy do we have the freedom to not follow His guidelines, yes, but we will have to live with the consequences just like the lady suffered the consequences of not teaching her dog not to bite but in fear of what she knew the rules were for a dog who bites she died rather than having the dog quarantined.

  27. Bill says:

    Do you have any specific examples of Mart’s blog becoming a chat room, pooh? Are you referring to a poster who is no longer among us? Or do you have a more recent example in mind?

    Or are you just referring to theoretical breaches of blog rules?

    I haven’t seen any violations lately. People seem well behaved and respectful to me.

  28. foreverblessed says:

    That Psalm is also my favorite Bubbles, (september 24 , 3.35 pm)
    God’s mercy endureth forever
    There is a Psalm which says so in every verse, so it must be very important: Forever is His mercy, His Mercy does not stop, it is always there waiting…
    Psalm 136:1,2,3,4(KJV)

  29. foreverblessed says:

    The word for today in God at eventide is:
    “My Mercies are great to all who turn to Me and to all who turn from me.

    How tenderly I yearn over these wayward ones. How I seek ever to save them from the hurts their very refusal of Me will bring upon them.

    I long to save them from the hunger of loneliness that will follow their driving away the only love that will satisfy.”

    In the parables Jesus gave, He is always going after the ones that are lost, and I think that that is the attitude I should develop, a heart for those who are going astray, not condemning them, but praying for them, and whatever else the Holy Spirit tells me to do.

  30. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… thanks to your leading I do enjoy God at Eventide daily and find it always a blessing.
    I’ve shared it with others as well. Just like your blog name impliies, we are forever blessed. Gary

  31. poohpity says:

    Bill, I was using that as an example to those who point out the sin in others when they have it in themselves. Just the ol finger pointing thing when one has three pointing back at them. That all fall short of the Glory of God and we need to look at ourselves before we look at others then we can realize how much grace and mercy we “all” have been shown. When we admit then we can regret and repent.

  32. royalpalm says:

    Hello, Mart and BTA family, -Thanks for this topic and for sharing your thoughts. I too pray for you as I read updates and posts; it is always good when missing “posters” like Bob and Gary are back and newcomers join in…I’ll try to put my own thoughts when I could.

    Mart, you wrote, “Does God show mercy only to those who didn’t know what they were doing?“

    IMHO, it is not the magnitude of my sin nor the cause or reason why I sinned(intentional/unintentional,deliberate or in ignorance) ) that determines God’s mercy towards me – but my attitude towards God because of my sin.

    God has created me and each person to have a personal relationship with Him. It is His desire to restore that relationship when it is broken because of my sin. Like the father of the prodigal son who did not care how dirty the son was or what sinful life he lived- he was just happy to see his son back. God, like the father, is always waiting for us to return to Him. When we acknowledge that we have sinned against Him and ask for forgiveness, He will freely pardon.

    John wrote, “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” John 3:17

    And Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together, ”Says the LORD, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.”

    Isaiah 55:6,7 “Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.”

    Psalm 103:11-14
    11 For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; 12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. 13 As a father pities his children, So the LORD pities those who fear Him.14 For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.

    Psalm 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul; And all that is within me, bless His holy name!

  33. His Sparrow says:

    I’m kinda thinking that in the parable of the laborers, Matthew 20 (KJ) the Holy Spirit is showing me that God has asserted His Omniscience on any “can of worms” in my life.

    Psalm 139:1-4
    “O Lord thou has searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord thou knowest it altogether.”

    In the aforementioned parable,
    God pays the price for all sin (the wages of sin is death) i.e. He bought the whole vineyard. He then is responsible for its survival. He gives the gift of eternal life (through Jesus) through an “offer of employment” (salvation) to each individual, at His choosing –- where we are in the “marketplace” (Mt 20:3,4).

    God is also sovereign, but not arbitrary.
    This redeemed wage is the same for each of us. The accepted wage for a normal 12 hour workday in Jesus time was a ‘denarion’ we might call it a legal minimum wage or something today.

    Jesus is the denarion. His love, His sacrifice, is equally given for all of us wherever we are in the “marketplace” without the high price of the whole farm — because God is acquainted with all our ways: unintentional sin, intentional sin, ignorance, unbelief, the whole can of worms.

    Hoping I expressed that well enough.
    I will humbly submit myself to correction, but…

    I think that’s how His Sparrow flies.
    xo

  34. SFDBWV says:

    I am looking at Mart’s comment asking if we *resonated* with the question “If we could see any sin with the full knowledge of God, and while trusting Him completely-who would go there?”

    Bill raised the point of being in churches that actually prayed for other churches to *see* it their way and be saved.

    I dare say that we all have been in either churches or groups who have plenty of people who are certain they are *right* and just as certain all who disagree are *wrong*

    Wasn’t that the doorway to Saul’s (Paul) sin? He didn’t sin in just thinking he was right, but because he was so certain he was right that he aided in the persecution of other people.

    Do we do any less when we persecute others among us for having a difference of opinion?

    Just like the dog in Mart’s story, when we bite the hand of others among us we are in fact biting the hand of Christ.

    It is patience and longsuffering and love that will soften a heart in another not confrontation.

    I have searched the scripture and I see no instruction from Jesus for us to insist others agree with us, only for us to live His example and present Him to others. Allowing the Holy Spirit to convict and lead them into revelation knowledge.

    How many people have left the faith because of the stubborn attitude of other believers; too many!

    How many died of the infection of piety poisoning; alone without friends or family shunned because of the spirit of Saul before he became Paul; too many.

    How we treat others has a very far reaching effect, we should remember that and remember that Love and the treatment of others is what Christian living is all about. Presenting Jesus though word and deed, may slow down the collateral damage we do.

    Steve

  35. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… I totally agree that long suffering and patience are good Godly qualities that we could all stand to remember and practice daily. Just as making a stand against evil at all opposition, as Christ has taught saying the word is a double edged sword, it divides!
    So, yes we can alienate even ourselves from others when sin enters the arena to be accepted by us as a church body, as a family, as a friend, as a brother, as a sister, and so on.
    Sometimes it is through this alienation process of others that we protect ourselves knowing we are vulnerable to sin’s far reaching and ever hiding itself in the light of so called love.
    Only discernment from the Holy Spirit can take a heart that desires the love of all to stand against the love of the sin filled lives of wolves in sheep’s clothing were our innocence alone doesn’t always protect us.
    I know you know there is a time for everything, a season, and in this season of morale decline, and the absolute depravity and corruption of the Word of God today, we must depend on that still small voice within.
    Sin will always separate us from real love we should be pursuing, and our love of the world around us competes with a cunning we can not discern ourselves.
    The Word of God is a stumbling block to many who want to love both the world and God. So, we who love the Word, do suffer for it daily. Gary

  36. foreverblessed says:

    Gary, yes isn’t God at eventide a blessing, in there God is often warning sternly to do what He asks, and to encourage to be receptive to what He wants to tell us. But in the same time He is so full of love all the time, the love, and grace and peace, and telling to come to rest in Him is the main issue, sometimes there are warnings, not all the time.
    (That is my way of saying to you: do not warn all the time, talk about the grace in Jesus too, peace in Him, the rest you have found in Him, otherwise you become overbearing, to me at least. But what a great God we have,the grace we have found through Jesus, we can be at peace in Him, not wanting to sin, but having our minds set on doing His will.)

  37. poohpity says:

    Amen!!

  38. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… how quick and graciously you proof a rebuke when it suits you. Perhaps here is an easy place for another “Amen!!”

    Thanks to your mentioning it, I’ve started reading the bible in another format, a One Year NLT Chronological Bible.
    Perhaps it will help me with context.
    Perhaps it will be my first “every word” reading. Perhaps it is truly in God’s timing, for I started it on September 24th, right after the books hundred year break of the Old Testament. And that day’s assigned reading… The Beginning of the Good News!

    There is no pagination or numbered reference I can share here other than this verse, Mark 1:1a.”This is the Good News about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    I think that is a great place to start trying to make amends, or Amen’s!! Gary

  39. poohpity says:

    Gary, you will be very blessed in your attempt. It is very hard to follow through but I pray that God will give you the strength to complete what you have started. Chronologically even the OT makes more sense. May God bless you as you soak up His wonderful Word. Any place one starts is a good place. That does not make me love you more than I already do. :-)

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