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As the Leaves Fall

When I wrote in my last post about the way time has changed my thinking about the Bible, I was thinking of what has happened as a result of:

Listening to the way others interpret or apply the Scriptures.

Discovering the complexity and simplicity of life, circumstance,  love, and honesty.

Seeing that many of us hurt inside more than we let on, which means that others are hurting far more than we realize.

Discovering that our calling is to love rather than to condemn, without neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process.

Slowly discovering that everything else in the Bible needs to be considered and reconsidered in light of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection…

While seeing also that the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus need to be considered and reconsidered in light of everything else in the Bible…

By coming to believe that: (1) that all of the Bible points to Christ (all that is true, beautiful, courageous, self-sacrificing and good—being personified and fulfilled in who he was, and what he did (Matt 5:17; Luke 24: 25-45)… and all that is false, deceitful, misleading, and hurtful combining to show us what he came to die for) and (2) that all of what he asks and helps us to be– is summed up in loving one another as he has loved us (Gal 5:14).

Concluding that God is far better, and infinitely more loving than any of us can imagine.

Would be interested in whether you resonate with some of these thoughts, and which ones you would take exception to.


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133 Responses to “As the Leaves Fall”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Good morning Mart. Yes Jesus certainly summed it all up when He stated in Matthew 22: 37, 38, 39, 40 as to what is the great commandment of the law and to the young rich man in Matthew 19: 17, 18, 19, 21 as to the pathway to eternal life.

    As has been said by me and others the Word of God is not just dead words written down on paper, but rather is an infinite living entity that is a well spring of living water and an endless wealth of enlightenment. All we need do is open our hearts to it and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us to its bounty filled truths.

    However each of us are very diverse in where we are and what God is ready to reveal and especially what and when we are ready to accept the truths and pearls of wisdom found there in His Word.

    Each time we point a finger at another and tell them they are wrong what we are actually saying is they don’t know what I do and I don’t know what they do. Which may explain why not agreeing isn’t always making a judgment.

    In truth it is very difficult to love some people, but not impossible.

    Because we are given salvation and can not earn it, does not release us from living a life devoid of striving to exemplify following the precepts and rules of living according to God.

    Rather once we take up the mantel of Christ it is our responsibility to show Christ in us not our old worldly selves.

    It is there that the battle is fought every day and there that we know our salvation to be real, because if it were not, then there would be no battle within us.

    Steve

  2. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    I agree that there are many hurting people in the world and in the church. Life has a way of changing us. We do not choose the circumstances and losses and grief we must bear. We are not called to judge those around us, but to walk with our brothers and sisters, offering provision for needs and friendship in Christ. There is precious little difference among humans genetically, therefore many of the divisions we perceive are not real. Differences are most often a matter of perception. The groaning of humanity is due to sin – the sin nature, and sins – our disobedient acts.

    Calling is an on-going thing, it seems to me. We do not receive a single word from on high that remains a steady guiding principle for action – except that we are to love one another.

    Mart, you wrote:

    “Discovering that our calling is to love rather than to condemn, without neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process,” as one of the leading factors in your conclusion that:

    “…God is far better, and infinitely more loving than any of us can imagine.”

    While I do not in any way take exception to your line of reasoning, I would ask you whether you believe that God is not only “far better and infinitely more loving,” but is the Motivator of all love – the Originator of love? (1 John 4:18, 19, 20, 21)
    In other words, Mart, could it be that God’s character and will are entirely good – infinitely gracious – all seeing and all-loving? Would “good judgment in the process” be sharing the story of redemption and saving grace with friend and enemy alike? How then, will we live out our own salvation if we do not tell the stories handed down in the Scriptures?

    Blessings,
    Maru

  3. poohpity says:

    I wonder if it is not so much in sharing but our caring that reflects the Lord in our lives. We seem to talk and talk but when we hate, carry anger, think we are better than others, do not love our enemies and do good to those who do bad to us, it seems the love of Christ is not in us. That is what He did when He gave His life to people who were enemies, hated Him and were sinners.

  4. poohpity says:

    The teachers of the law would not be seen around sinners or anything they felt was unclean (old wine skin) but Jesus showed them that is exactly who He came for (new wine & skin) those who recognized who they were before a Holy God. It seems so easy to love those who return that love but to those who do not, now that takes an act of God and He is willing. Can you imagine your worst enemy and what it would take to really show them love? That seems to be what God did for us. Unless we like the Pharisees feel we are already righteous.

  5. cjaway11 says:

    I really like the way that Chambers describes it as the Atonement. That really says it all to me!

  6. poohpity says:

    cjaway11, Chambers said, “Obedience means that I have completely placed my trust in the atonement, and my obedience is immediately met by the delight of the supernatural grace of God.” Can you imagine what our witness would be like if we lived by that?

  7. phpatato says:

    Mart you wrote:

    “Discovering that our calling is to love rather than to condemn, without neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process.”

    I am trying to think of an example of why you would connect trying to show good judgement (and the responsibility tied to that) with loving [our neighbour]. Other than showing good judgement in marriage, I can’t further tie those two together. Could you explain what you meant by that? I know myself to suffer from those “duh” moments quite often. :-)

    Thanks

    Pat

  8. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Mart, Your comment, “Slowly discovering that everything else in the Bible needs to be considered and reconsidered in light of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection…

    While seeing also that the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus need to be considered and reconsidered in light of everything else in the Bible…”

    Brought the “yin and yang” symbol to mind. Also thought of Jesus being the Alpha and the Omega (the beginning and the end). Since I’ve been grown and have had opportunity to reflect on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, the fact that Jesus was willing to do that on our behalf (especially when we weren’t deserving of it) speaks to His great and unfathomable LOVE for us (mankind). And all he asks in return is that we love one another. Stevie Wonder’s “Ebony & Ivory” song also came to mind… Again, that song, in my opinion, speaks to God’s desire for us to LOVE and appreciate one another inspite of our many differences.

    A little hungry right now and I need to take care of a few chores, so I had to type this comment quickly.

    Love to all…

    Hot and sunny day in Texas today (mid 80’s).

  9. Loomis says:

    Mart
    I think you are right, but in the Scriptures we find the whole counsel of God that we have to open too. God remains a big God and is with us as we age.

  10. SFDBWV says:

    Mart I am going to start with the beginning of your comment where you said “When I wrote in my last post about the way time has changed my thinking about the Bible,”.

    I don’t remember reading that time had changed the way you thought about the Bible and it causes me to ask what specifically has changed?

    Remembering that there is a difference between maturing and changing, though a very thin difference sometimes they are seen as the same.

    Personally I think everyone hurts inside, some know it, some just turn it to anger, some ignore it and some enjoy it.

    When it come down to matters of faith, especially when we seem to have a silent non answer from God, it is then we have to rely solely on faith and sometimes it seems shaky and when that happens we feel weak and guilty, it is then we need the love and encouragement of others to help us along; it is a very mature thing to realize sometimes we have to let others be strong for us.

    Remember my dream, there are a lot of unanswered questions we have to live with, but in the end whether we have the answers we seek or not no longer will matter.

    Steve

  11. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    Mart, it seems you have fashioned this question to draw the friends here into a discussion of the place or the work of Scripture (the Bible) in the life of a disciple of Jesus.

    I have come to the end of the book of Malachi (yesterday) in my journey through this volume. I hope to hold the Word of God very high in my life and in my thinking and my action. Reading each book over again — whether you believe this to be a fruitful pursuit or an unfruitful one — I am transformed in my inner person. It seems to me this transformation is a bit at a time — and not a huge leap to changed heart and mind.

    I often think of those around the world, in so many different cultures, languages and even religious contexts. Wherever a small group of people gather to read Scripture together, the Holy Spirit must(and will) lead us into faith and thinking and action that will bring transformation to both our fellowship and the society around us. Why else would repressive political regimes ban the Bible in their territory? The Word is dangerous to those who govern through fear and intimidation, hatred and force. We live in a moral universe, created by God, in my view.

    As I age, I beleive less and less in randomness, luck and chance.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  12. foreverblessed says:

    Mart is telling us that time has changed how he viewed the bible, then he writes a little further on: that everything in the bible points to Jesus, as He loved us, we loving one another.
    So I guess that he is saying, before he did not see this as clear, he must have thought like many here still do: there is so much more in the bible then just Jesus.
    But now he writes, all points to Jesus, so I guess that is what Mart has learned over time.
    All pointing to Jesus, I believe this is so, although the full truth of this must still sink in.
    If there is so much more then Jesus, we could not handle it, unless we are fully in the Love of Jesus. Only to the measure we are in the love of God, can we handle knowledge, otherwise knowledge kills. That’s why the tree of knowledge of good and evil is killing you.
    As an example I will bring up one point, in the last topic someone mentioned that her home was haunted by ghosts. (I pray for you too, AmazedbyHisGrace) This knowledge is for many frightening. So for many this is not good to know.
    If we grow in trust in Jesus, experiencing His cleansing love more and more, putting into practice what He teaches, slowly and bit by bit can we bear these truths.

  13. Bill says:

    Good Morning Mart and Friends!

    This post hits very close to home for me. My path may have run parallel to yours, Mart.

    You wrote: “Seeing that many of us hurt inside more than we let on, which means that others are hurting far more than we realize.”

    I believe that.

    I have been a Christian for some 30 years. In all that time, I can count on the fingers of one hand Christians who were actually as whole and sound — emotionally and spiritually — as they let on to the world, to each other, and even to themselves. That fact, alone has caused me incredible bouts of doubting the veracity and efficacy of scripture. I’ve concluded that something is wrong. There’s a disconnect somewhere. I haven’t yet figured out what it is. But I can tell you it weighs on me daily.

    You wrote: “Discovering that our calling is to love rather than to condemn, without neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process.”

    The first part of that statement is the heart of the Gospel. The second part is, I think, hedging your bet. Or, to put it another way, I think the first nine words of that sentence (“…our calling is to love rather than to condemn”) is Christianity lived without a net. It’s the riskiest, yet most rewarding living out of the Bible’s message I can think of. It IS the Gospel, reduced to nine words.

    The second part of your sentence (“…without neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process”) is, I think, you restoring the net under yourself. It’s tempering the no-holds-barred “calling” I believe God has place before us all. It’s you not trusting yourself or others to know what you mean by love. So you qualify it.

    To put it yet another way, the first part of your sentence is like an art teacher handing her students lumps of clay and telling them, “You’re free to make anything of this clay that you wish.” The students are elated and start to consider myriad ways of moulding their clay into works of art.

    But then the teacher says, “But just don’t get too creative. Your clay has to all resemble the established notion of what art is.”

    There are three books that I believe every Christian should read. They are:

    “The Mark of the Christian” by Francis A. Schaeffer

    “Love Wins” by Rob Bell

    “The Bible Made Impossible: Why Biblicism Is Not a Truly Evangelical Reading of Scripture” by Christian Smith

    Schaeffer, from The Mark of the Christian:

    ___________

    What is this mark?

    At the close of his ministry, Jesus looks forward to his death on the cross, the open tomb and the ascension. Knowing that he is about to leave, Jesus prepares his disciples for what is to come. It is here that he makes clear what will be the distinguishing mark of the Christian:

    “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come. A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:33-35)

    This passage reveals the mark that Jesus gives to label a Christian not just in one era or in one locality but at all times and all places until Jesus returns.

    Notice that what he says here is not a description of a fact. It is a command which includes a condition: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” An IF is involved. IF you obey, you will wear the badge Christ gave. But since this is a command, it can be violated.

    The point is that it is possible to be a Christian without showing the mark, but if we expect non-Christians to know that we are Christians, we must show the mark.

    ___________

    Schaeffer called this “the final apologetic.”

    In his last book, The Great Evangelical Disaster (1984, pgs. 164-165), Schaeffer wrote:

    __________

    Yet, without true Christians loving one another, Christ says the world cannot be expected to listen, even when we give proper answers. Let us be careful, indeed, to spend a lifetime studying to give honest answers. For years the orthodox, evangelical church has done this very poorly. So it is well to spend time learning to answer the questions of men who are about us. But after we have done our best to communicate to a lost world, still we must never forget that the final apologetic which Jesus gives is the observable love of true Christians for true Christians.

    __________

    I believe Christians, somewhere along the way, have missed (or perhaps never knew) the Bible’s main message – love.

    Granted, it’s difficult to love as Christ loved. To love, without condition, with no safety net, with no regard for self, is very, very hard. In fact, very little is harder.

    And that’s probably why so few Christians do it. It’s much easier to use the Bible as a shield between us and the world, under the pretense of “holiness” or “purity” or “God’s will,” or as a weapon to condemn the world.

    Consider the Westboro Baptist Church and their ugly, vile public protests. Their members use scripture to support what they’re doing. At face value, it’s hard to disagree with them — if the scriptures are all we go by. Without love, the scripture are cold and cruel, like bars in a jail cell.

    But don’t many Christians do the same thing as Westboro Baptist? We may not be as blatant, or as cruel and hurtful. But don’t we use the scriptures the same way — to prove or disprove the thoughts, words, and deeds of others? Why not just take the scriptures all the way to their logical conclusion? Westboro Baptist does.

    Because of love.

    I believe the Bible is first and foremost about love. It is God’s love, Jesus’ love, our love for each other, and our love for the world.

    Want “proof”?

    What were some of Jesus’ last words on the cross?

    They were NOT, “Man, I am really gonna get you people!” or “Yeah. You think you’ve won? Just wait until my father gets hold of you!”

    Nope. They were, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

    Even if Jesus was referring to the two thieves on either side of him (rather than those who had put Him on the cross), his words stand in stark contrast to our words today. They were words that revealed what Jesus, in His final minutes, thought was what mankind most needed to hear: forgiveness and love.

    NOT condemnation. NOT retribution. NOT rebuke. NOT correction. NOT criticism.

    Forgiveness and love.

    Jesus’ last words.

    Forgiveness.

    Love.

    Finally, Mart wrote:

    “Discovering the complexity and simplicity of life, circumstance, love, and honesty.”

    Amen.

    Have a great day, everyone.

    Bill

    P.S. This entire post is 100% my opinion. I have no authority, no definitive word to say on this (or any other) subject. I am not married to my opinion, either. So I will not be offended if you sharply disagree with me. Furthermore, I meant no harm to anyone in this post. If I offended you, please forgive me. That was not my intention.

  14. SFDBWV says:

    One of the advantages of being alive 2000 years after the fact of Jesus’ first coming is being able to look backward over the Bible and see Jesus on every page. Another advantage of living now is that for 2000 years Jesus and His story from Genesis to Revelation has influenced every walk of life in every area of art music and literature.

    Our artists both inspired and uninspired have given us wonderful masterpieces.

    However just as in the beginning every good thing is open to corruption; this is the nature of the fallen world we live in.

    It is written that the anti-christ has been in the world from the beginning and even though his spirit is offensive to we believers, his very presence shows a basic law of God’s creation whereas for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

    Without darkness light is not appreciated and without light darkness is all that remains.

    God has said that in a coming time there will be a new heaven and a new earth and that there will be no night as His light will illuminate all things. A new creation of old things!

    Who among us can understand God or even begin to explain Him? We are given a tiny piece of existence and a look into the past, present, and future of the story of God and man.

    What is it we can do but believe these things we have been given to see and most importantly believe God and trust what He has said to be true at each place in time.

    You are right Mart, God is far better and infinitely more loving than any of us can imagine.
    As we are only able to experience and understand a small piece of our Creator as we are made in His image not capable of being Him as is Jesus of Nazareth the Christ.

    Steve

  15. foreverblessed says:

    Yes Bill, amen I say, it is love that is the mark.
    Saying what is wrong in others is useless if we haven’t been cleansed ourselves. How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? Matthew 7:4 (See the logic of God: my own sin is like a plank, the others persons sin is small like a speck of dust! In my own old human mind it is the other way round, we just hardly see our own shortcomings).
    Matthew 7:5, Just lately saw that this is a promise: IF we remove the plank out of our own eye. So the main business of seeing sin, is seeing it in my own life. And then we will also see the perspective of God: It was huge sin that was forgiven me, it is a small detail that is wrong in the other. A very humble and graceful attitude. And when I have experienced the Grace that was directed at me, I will be so much more graceful to others.
    So in effect I am saying, it is OK to point sin to others, but on these above conditions.

  16. foreverblessed says:

    Just want to tell a story of how full of grace God is.
    We were having an activity with students, who were raised in christians homes but now go their own way. We picked one of them up at the train station and drove to the activity. Then something happens: the boy has lost his keys, the key of his bike, with all his other keys hanging on to it. He calls the train station, they check the train, it is not there. Then there is another option, going back to where the bike is parked. It is a detour of more then half an hour. So we decide to do that. While driving there I am praying for the guy, asking God to help out here. But the discussion starts about bikes, and stealing, now it seemed that these guys take a bike when they see that there it is not locked. I was shocked to say to least, was asking if they were raised that way, No they said, but society has taught them to do so, because so many of their own bikes were stolen. Then my prayer suddenly had a different tone: I was telling God: You know what is best to do now, they have not deserved it when the bike is still there.
    We came to the train station where the bike would be. The guy was getting nervous, because of all the misfortune of his keys of the house and of his room, and no more second keys available.
    Anyway, he goes to look for his bike, and guess what?
    It was still there!
    He stepped into to the car and was so happy, so pleased, so thankful, and said from the bottom of his heart:
    O God, thank you, I did not deserve this!

  17. narrowpathseeker says:

    I think I may now understand what Mart may have meant in, “Discovering that our calling is to love rather than to condemn, without neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process.”
    I was awakened around 4am to a knock on my door. I called out that I was coming as I jumped out of bed to open it. Since I have no peephole or window in my door, I asked, “Who’s there?”, but no one answered, because there was no one there! Then I noticed that my pc was on and I KNOW I had shut it down. I shut it off AGAIN and tried to go back to sleep because I had only slept about 2 ½ hours, but I was wide awake. I have been very depressed for awhile now, feeling like God had given me a “time out” as I hadn’t felt His definite presence in many weeks. I thought it was because of the anger that keeps rising up in me over and over throughout the days and weeks and maybe I was just hopelessly evil. I have been praying for Him to deliver me from that anger and all the other ugliness of SELFand for Him to return to me. His silence was more painful than the recalled offenses that just overtake me and ignite my anger which snowballs towards anyone who offends anyone……….. even when trying to stay focused on Christ Jesus. As soon as I remembered my prayer before bed I thought, “Could it have been the Lord knocking on my door?!” I got up and prayed. Then I wondered if He had turned on my pc as well… maybe there was something on the pc that He wanted me to see. I checked my email and the daily devotional was a Response to my bedtime prayer!! I came here to see if He had something else He wanted me to see.. He DID! I have been limiting my time here because I wanted to express that anger in a hurtful way, towards one who seemed to provoke it intentionally. I have refrained from acting on this anger, but the ugliness I feel towards people when angry seemed as evil to me as acting on it. TODAY I feel NO ANGER!!!!!! I hope this is a done deal!! The Lord has broken His silence to me.Thank YOU Lord. In conclusion to what I think Mart meant………..that while we are to love and not condemn……… that not neglecting our responsibility to show good judgement in the process…. is to NOT CONDONE behavior that is self-destructive as well as destructive to others, but not to destroy them with the correction done in the name of Love..….or something like that. I am babysitting a 2yo so I need to go now….but will be back later. God Bless us all.

  18. SFDBWV says:

    I will join with you Narrowpathseeker for your *halleluiah* moment. Praise the Lord for He is faithful.

    Steve

  19. poohpity says:

    I remember Mart when you gave us that small story of the store to see how our minds can get a little carried away. Very short story with some facts and then some things left to our imagination. I remember some assumptions made that carried the story line off to some very strange conclusions but the facts got lost. I think that is exactly what happens when we go beyond what we are given in simplicity in scripture like your short essay turns to mental pictures and imagination that seem to miss the conclusion altogether.

    I so agree with your conclusion, “that God is far better, and infinitely more loving than any of us can imagine.”

    “Discovering that our calling is to love rather than to condemn, without neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process.” The responsibility to me that we are each given because of our love for God is accountability with grace and humility.

    Maru, just as you finished the book of Malachi the next time you read it you will glean more because hopefully your faith will have grown in the process. There may be something there that after reading other parts of scripture and how they are interwoven you will come to a deeper meaning of God’s infinite love. I think that is how over time our view of scripture changes.

    I feel very sad for those who do not have that scriptural foundation before they read any other authors to see how they interpret or apply scripture because they have no basis to compare to.

  20. poohpity says:

    If we even gave a thought to loving others we would take into consideration before we say anything to any one they maybe going through a battle so our words can be devastating if given without a consideration to who is receiving them.

  21. Bill says:

    @pooh, to whom or what do you refer with your comments?

    When you write, “I feel very sad for those who do not have that scriptural foundation before they read any other authors to see how they interpret or apply scripture because they have no basis to compare to” are you making a judgment, an assumption, on your part that those who gain something from books do not already have a scriptural foundation?

    Why do you feel very sad? It’s been my experience that those who appreciate insights from books do indeed have a basis on which to compare the authors’ words to the scriptures. Not everyone, of course. But many, perhaps most. Being well read can aid in understanding how to apply specific truths to our own lives, or to the lives of around us. Pastors do this all the time when they prepare sermons. They often check to see what famous authors (Spurgeon, Finney, Tozer, Lewis, Sunday, Ravenhill, et al) have said regarding biblical passages before preaching their sermons. This is often the basis for study Bibles, too. The notes are merely opinions, sometimes gleaned from what theologians and authors have said previously about each verse.

    Since we all can’t be everywhere, understanding all cultures — and even those in communities near us — I think it can be wise to see what authors say. Maybe their insights will lead to insights for others. Or to ourselves. One does not need to believe everything read, of course. We’re free to pick and choose from what authors say, just as we are free to pick and choose from what we say here on BTA.

    Also, you wrote:

    “If we even gave a thought to loving others we would take into consideration before we say anything to any one they maybe going through a battle so our words can be devastating if given without a consideration to who is receiving them.”

    That’s very wise counsel. I agree. But that doesn’t apply to just the subject of love. It can — and most certainly should — apply to words of criticism directed to others.

    The famous phrase, “Never criticize a man until you’ve walked a mile in his moccasins” should be taken into account before any words are spoken. Or written.

    Thank you for the very wise reminder, pooh. I appreciate that very much.

  22. poohpity says:

    At one time in my life when I was really into filling my head with any and everything I could read about scripture God put it on my heart, not head, why are you reading what someone writes about the Bible and not allowing me to teach you directly from the source. You know like third person accounts rather than direct. That puzzled me, so I gave it a chance. It was amazing, so my cause in life has become to direct people to read the Bible first and foremost for their basic foundation before they pick up a book from another author who is giving their understanding of the Bible, a third person account.

    Many people read what others write about the Bible and are lead down paths of understanding of that person’s perspective and often times may not be in line with the teaching of the Bible but how would they even know.

    Bill, have you ever read the Bible chronologically or even all the way through from cover to cover? If you have then you will understand what I am saying about how understanding grows, things stick out more and the Word is actually alive. It never returns void. When you are in a situation that you may feel afraid, troubled, perplexed and having the Word inside you scripture will just pop into your head. Or trying to make decisions or find God Will, scripture will just come to mind. But if you do not have it in your mind then what have you to draw on?

    All I can say is I have experienced many Bible studies where you are guided to think on what they want you to think on but there is nothing like personal Bible reading. Long before there were all these Bible study guides or books from different authors there was only the Bible. The easy thing to do is read a third person account because the Bible seems like a daunting task but it is easy a chapter or two at a time. Now a days everybody wants everything right now but some things are worth the time put into them. Do not listen to what I say, try it for yourself and find out what I am talking about. Bible illiteracy in the church today is at 11% and that is among believers. If you look around in your church at all the thousands of people only 11% have ever read the Bible and out of those I do not know the statistics of those who have read it more than once. That is very sad to me.

  23. poohpity says:

    If deception were easy to detect then it would not be deception.

  24. Bill says:

    Hi pooh,

    I appreciate your comments. But I’m not sure why you assume I haven’t read the Bible, all the way through or otherwise. What is it about my posts that make you assume I haven’t read the Bible as much as you have, or others here have? Is it because I don’t quote scripture as often? Or is it because you disagree with my comments?

    As I wrote, I’ve been a Christian for 30 years. I began my Christian walk by reading through the Bible, as many versions of it as possible. KJV, NIV, NASB, NKJV, Amplified, Philips — you name it. I read the Bible-In-A-Year books. I bought Alexander Scourby’s narration of the Bible and often listened to it while I followed along in the Bible, or even as I went to sleep at night.

    I used to drive around in my car, listening to Scourby CDs. I have Scourby on my iPod. The beauty and grace of Scourby’s reading of the King James Version is unparalleled.

    In addition to that, I spent many years, in many churches, hearing the word of God preached. Plus, whenever I’d encounter an issue with which I had no answer, and the pastors and books I consulted had no answer, I’d dig in an do more research and thinking. One time, I bought a plane ticket to a Christian retreat in New England to spend the weekend seeking an answer from the very wise Christians who ran it.

    So, I have been as steeped in the scriptures as you have, and just as diligent about discovering answers.

    You wrote, “God put it on my heart, not head, why are you reading what someone writes about the Bible and not allowing me to teach you directly from the source.”

    Keep in mind, what God says to you is not what he says to me, or to anyone else. It would be a mistake to assume that God’s message to you should also be directed at others. That was God’s personal word to you, and no one else.

    Finally, you wrote, “If deception were easy to detect then it would not be deception.” Are you saying that I have been deceived? Or that I am a deceiver? Or is that comment not directed to me?

    I appreciate your comments, as always. I learn much from you. I’ll be sure to be more aware of my Bible reading, as well as my posts. And please feel free to post comments pointing out where I’m wrong. My mind is always open. I appreciate your wisdom, pooh.

  25. poohpity says:

    The Bible transcends all visible separations like cultures, gender, race, knowledge and social economic factors and puts us all on the same plane at the foot of the Cross. To me it is the greatest equalizer yet causes the greatest separations.

  26. poohpity says:

    Gee Bill, it seems you are feeling defensive. I am not saying anything against you or anybody else. No one has to read the Bible if they do not want to. Yep God put it on my heart to read the Bible, I am not boasting about reading it. It took time to go from head to heart over many different seasons in life. If I boast about anything it is that I have found the more I read it the more I have to learn and the more I thought I knew, I am humbled because I do not know as much as I thought. I do not read it to gain knowledge I read it to learn about God’s love. I understand that God’s love is more infinite than any thing in this life that I can understand. I read it because when I love somebody I want to find out all I can about them (intimacy) and yes there is more beyond it pages that I will experience.

  27. Bill says:

    Nope. Not feeling defensive at all, pooh. Your comments prompted my response. You asked, I answered. Nothing more, nothing less.

    As always, I remain open minded and willing to learn from others.

    I appreciate your comments.

  28. poohpity says:

    Let God tell you whether you are wrong or right if that is what you need to know!! I do not think it makes that much difference because when it comes down to it all our hands are going to cover our mouths as Job said, “I have said to much already”. Job 40:5

  29. poohpity says:

    That was Job 40:4-5 NIV

  30. poohpity says:

    When we appear before the Lord.

  31. poohpity says:

    Sometimes a simple yes or no is good enough.

  32. poohpity says:

    Off topic, Please pray for the father of my children who yesterday right before I left for church was in a motorcycle accident up in the mountains. He was air-vac’ed to the trauma center in Scottsdale and is currently in ICU. He understands how very blessed he is to not have received more serious injuries but is having problems getting the oxygen he needs to be released from the hospital. If any trauma would have hit his abdominal region it would have been instant death. Pray he is open to seeing God’s hand in all this. Thank you for the prayers.

  33. Bill says:

    I’m so sorry to hear this, pooh!

    Of course, we will be in prayer for him.

    Thank you for letting us know.

  34. remarutho says:

    Prayers going up over here, Pooh.

    I pray the Lord will heal this man, husband, father, of his injuries — and bring him to a point of choosing to serve Jesus full-out. What a blessing he is holding steady!

    Yours,
    Maru

  35. His Sparrow says:

    I’ll pray for him, too, poohpity. For the oxygen he needs and whatever else that I can’t know but the Lord does.

    Love
    His Sparrow.

  36. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, I will be praying for you and your husband as well.

    Steve, thank you for joining with me in my *halleluiah* moment.

    There are some really good stories and encouraging thoughts here today. Thank you all for sharing.

  37. narrowpathseeker says:

    Cherielyn, I have missed several topics and posts here in recent weeks, but I do recall you writing that things had gotten worse. I hope things have changed for the better at this time. I have not forgotten you, your husband, and son in prayer. Hang on tight Cherielyn, your day of victory will come.

  38. Mart De Haan says:

    When I said, “Discovering that our calling is to love rather than to condemn, without neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process” I was trying to balance love with the question “what does love require in any given situation.”

    Seems to me that that requires our desire to not just be “nice” and “kind” but to be honestly concerned about seeking the good of another person. That calls for a desire for good judgement that sounds like but is very from “judging others” in the sense of condemning them.

    Because Jesus said that he came not to judge/condemn but to rescue, and that he wants his disciples therefore to love both friend and enemy, was trying to show that the love he calls for requires more than treating others the way they want to be treated– but also good judgment in the process.

  39. Mart De Haan says:

    Maru, yes, I think you are right that God is also the source of all true love that, as you indicate, will lead us to be concerned about others’ present and eternal well being.

    That gets to the idea that we are not called to a life of mere principle, but to a life enabled by the goodness and Spirit of God.

  40. Mart De Haan says:

    On the matter of God speaking directly to us through the Bible, we probably are not all in agreement that better judgment will also lead us to say, i.e. “I believe God was leading me through these words to” … rather than “God said to me…”

    But, still seems to me that if we don’t take responsibility for our own impression/conviction/assurance of what the Spirit is saying to us through Scripture, at some point we are weakening our sense of “what God says” and “the Word of God” by putting our words, thoughts, and impressions in his mouth.

    Pointing out that “his sheep hear and know his voice” can still be believed and embraced without turning that around to say what we think he says is what he says.

    At least, that’s my take :-)…

  41. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Bill,
    I thought your post yesterday, October 15, 2012 at 8:38 am, was excellent and constructed so well.
    I have copied it to a file on my desk top for future reference.
    Thank you Bill

    Bob

  42. Bill says:

    Thanks, Bob.

    I try to be as honest and transparent as possible. When Mart posts something, I chime in when I feel I have something to add, and I don’t when I don’t.

    In either case, all I’m presenting are my thoughts at this moment in my life. They’re not the thoughts I had when I was 30 or 40. And they may not be the thoughts I have when I’m 60 or 70. They’re snapshots in time. So I don’t claim to have the definitive word on anything. I only offer an opinion.

    But I really dig debate. So I’m always up for a little back-and-forth dialogue. However, should that occur, I won’t likely use scripture to “prove” my point or “disprove” someone else’s opinion. I don’t believe that’s what scripture is for, primarily. I think that can lead to all sorts of issues of cheapening God’s word. The risk is too great to use the Bible in a manipulative sense.

    So I hope people aren’t afraid to challenge me, disagree with me. As I’ve posted before, some of my greatest A-ha!, epiphany moments have occurred when my opinion has been challenged. When I dive in to study a contrary opinion, I’m often presented with new information that changes what I believe.

    @Mart, you wrote this morning:

    “Seems to me that that requires our desire to not just be “nice” and “kind” but to be honestly concerned about seeking the good of another person. That calls for a desire for good judgement that sounds like but is very from “judging others” in the sense of condemning them.”

    I agree. People are not stupid. They can see through falseness or facade. We are either all in, or we are not. We are either honestly concerned about others, and seek their good, well being, or happiness, or we are not. But a vague gray in-between will do no one any good.

    I think there’s something missing in Christianity today, something that was discussed frequently by the Catholic “mystics” such as Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating, Wayne Teasdale and others: contemplativeness, a calm abiding in the presence of God. Contemplative prayer, a kind of Christian meditation, seems to be an agent of softening the heart, of making outreach more likely — and more genuine. I’ve been studying the Catholic “mystics” lately, wondering why their work is so enduring, why they’ve made such a big impact on the live of others.

    I think it was their servant’s heart.

    That’s what moves me these days — genuine outreach…across divides of gender, race, religion, and economics. I’ve been trying to walk a mile in another’s shoes. My wife and I are spending time and money reaching out to meet the needs of others, through the giving of food, or the sharing of time, or just in acts of kindness and love.

    So that’s where I’m coming from these days. I’ve been trying my best to have a soft heart, one that doesn’t condemn or judge; rather, it just serves.

    If my posts come across too full of love or non-judgment (and not enough full of scriptural proofs or rebukes or corrections) that’s because I’m practicing a life of loving as Mother Teresa did, or as Jesus did, or as people like Shane Claiborne and other Emergent Church leaders do. These days, I’m more about praxis than doctrine — action over theological hairsplitting. I believe the world is too far down the road today for us to be arguing over the meaning of verses. That ship has sailed. Now, I believe we need to be concerned with doing the work set before us, which is likely different for everyone.

    For me, it’s talking about love and demonstrating tangible manifestations of it in my community. For others, here it’s probably something different. That’s why what I post are merely opinions. I don’t know what God has for anyone else to do. I only know what I feel I am to do.

  43. Bill says:

    Can we get an update from pooh today? I’d like to know how the father of her children is doing.

    Pooh, if you’re out there today, could you give us an update?

  44. SFDBWV says:

    One of the things I have come to understand is that some *Christian* books are written by people dealing with or having dealt with certain issues. Their life experience and revelation of God’s involvement or lack of is what they try and share for the aid and encouragement of others.

    Then there are the collections of sermons that Oswald Chambers wife wrote down and saved for her husband and in so doing share with the whole of the world, not just those suffering young men during WWI.

    Those types of books are not about specific issues but speak to human issues and conditions for encouragement and direction.

    RBC’s mission statement is to make the life changing wisdom of the Bible understandable and accessible to all. Their business is the spreading of these books and these authors’ inspirational writings to the whole of the world. They are sold when possible and given away more often. It is done so by books pamphlets and if accessible by the internet all about reading not only scripture, but the ideas and experiences of authors and lay people as well.

    It is all about reading from or listening to others.

    If we think that all we want is to be alone with the Bible, never reading or hearing another’s take on it, then only have *one* view *our* view then we have become *narrow minded*.

    A narrow minded view is always ready to argue over any other view and defend it because to do otherwise would seem as a defeat.

    A defeat because they will always see any other view as a challenge to what they comfortably hold on to and do not want to believe their view to be skewed.

    It becomes a matter of experiencing others views, then comparing them to scripture, thinking about them and somewhere in the process we can either learn, refuse to learn or dismiss their views entirely.

    Steve

  45. cherielyn says:

    AmazedbyHis grace,

    I posted a comment for you regarding the situation you shared in the last subject. You can read it there.

  46. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    Mart, I am glad to hear you say we should not be only agencies of principle or, on the other hand, only agencies of loving others separately. It seems to me that this is the best sense of your statement about loving and loving responsibly. Being salt and light does not mean we take the jawbone of an ass to the Philistines!

    I have grown more in Christian community than I ever have grown apart in solitude with the Good Book. The solo-flight life of “me and Jesus” cannot stay in touch with the working and the wooing of the Holy Spirit. This way of being a follower of Jesus has no context for us to live into – in the marketplace of the world. There is always dialogue and relationship.

    Steve, you wrote:
    “If we think that all we want is to be alone with the Bible, never reading or hearing another’s take on it, then only have *one* view *our* view then we have become *narrow minded*.”

    I agree with your statement 110%. It seems to me this is the way to abundant life – life shared in the Bible and in the world around us. This is the hard way, for some, it seems. Solo analysis is simpler – perhaps even more “pure” – to stick to orthodoxy and straight-line moral thinking where all problems are “out there.” The truth is most lines in this universe are curved. That old dog won’t hunt. Hope lies in stepping up and, as someone put it, “doing Christianity without a net.”

    Blessings,
    Maru

  47. cherielyn says:

    Bill,

    Re your comment: “What were some of Jesus’ last words on the cross?

    They were NOT, “Man, I am really gonna get you people!” or “Yeah. You think you’ve won? Just wait until my father gets hold of you!”

    Nope. They were, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

    Even if Jesus was referring to the two thieves on either side of him (rather than those who had put Him on the cross), his words stand in stark contrast to our words today. They were words that revealed what Jesus, in His final minutes, thought was what mankind most needed to hear: forgiveness and love.

    NOT condemnation. NOT retribution. NOT rebuke. NOT correction. NOT criticism.

    Forgiveness and love.

    Jesus’ last words.

    Forgiveness.

    Love.”

    Wow, all I can say is a big THANK YOU!

    I have struggled, for years, with the hurts that my spouse hurtles at me on a constant basis. Too many times I have reacted in a not very Christian way to those hurts. Your comments have given me a lot to think about and I am going to try to start looking at my spouse through different eyes.

    Please pray for me and this endeavor.

    I am still trying to get caught up on BTA after a very busy 4 days. Had my son to the ER on Friday and then he had to stay at my house over the weekend because he had to be monitored for 48-72 hours. He had an EEG yesterday (not connected to the ER visit) & have to wait a few days for the results.

  48. poohpity says:

    Thank you for the prayers he is out of ICU in a regular room and asking to go home. Oxygen saturation is still below normal <96. He was never my husband but remains my friend after working through much forgiveness on both parts. I never really know how to describe our relationship because of the children. It is a little more than friendship with the kids in mind. The disclaimer could be "do not try this at home", lol!

    Mart, the ODB article for today really goes along with your 5:28am comment.

    It seems like understanding what real love really looks like by the examples we are given in scripture Jesus never held back truth but put forth if one thinks it looks like this then He pushed it a little further. Jesus seemed to consider as love what is in the best interest of others above Himself. Sometimes that best interest may not be all soft and fuzzie but it seemed to spur others on to be better. Never holding back on correction or conviction if we are going to wrong way that would not be a responsible way to treat those we love.

  49. narrowpathseeker says:

    Cherielyn, I heard an analogy awhile back that was very encouraging for me. I hope I can remember enough of it without leaving out any essential facets of it so that it may encourage you as well.

    The pastor was answering the question, “If we CAN NOT DO many things in our own power, what is the point in exhausting ourselves trying?” He gave an example of a giant boulder blocking a man’s path. There was no way the man could move it but he kept trying. He got other travelers to help him, and tried various tools, but the boulder just wouldn’t budge. Then God came and moved the boulder out of the way. So why didn’t God just move it in the first place? …..to try his heart and to make sure that the GLORY went where it belonged…to GOD.

    I took from it that no matter how many times I’ve failed at any given goal, as long as I KEEP TRYING, God has it under control and there lies hope. Hang in there Cherielyn.

  50. oneg2dblu says:

    BTA… in today’s world where politically correct is the only accepted way to answer, the ever tolerance seeking with their ever itching ears, how do we then give them the actual words written, when they are written without political correctness we so desire in our world today?
    Everyone wants their net in place first, it is their saying, “Give it to me, but give it to me my way!”
    The bible was never written to us as our chosen way, but written by God to give us His Way!
    The bible (in my closed minded opinion) is written to change the world, and that change “must” begin in people like us, or nothing really changes!

    So, when we read unacceptable verses like ones used today the ODB, where people will no longer tolerate the MUST words of the bible which would bring about change in them, they prefer the “Get Out of Jail Free” ones instead, that could possibly, or possibly not bring about any change in them.

    2 Timothy 2:19 NIV
    “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

    But because I point to it here I am then labeled a legalist, and probably considered as being unloving and pride filled as well.

    Verses like this are totally unacceptable today, in a world that fosters a belief system where some do not have to bear “any resemblance” to having been changed, but go directly to Heaven according to their doctrinal belief. “No questions asked!”

    But, if asked here among the believers, the forgiven, a strong condemnation comes quickly upon the asker, for only the more favorable verses are now embraced, and remarks fly as if God wasn’t really speaking correctly through Paul, who today seems to have gotten it all wrong, according to their politically correct and now still itching ears, that have since found a doctrine that seems to cancel out all the “old warnings” they really don’t like hearing.
    “Being immature compared to the well read others here, still thinking that all of God’s Word is written for a purpose and wondering why not embrace it, teach it as written, and allow it to change you?”
    Gary

  51. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, I am glad your friend is better.

    I have to go dig bulbs, but I think I have something to say on correction. I have a lot of trouble with correcting others because I know how much correction I need myself. When I do so, I am soon convicted of my own need for correction. I realize if I were guzzling a jug of whiskey, it would be foolish of me to be pointing out the evils of alcohol to someone sipping a glass of wine. However, with my own,(children, grands, siblings, friends, etc,) I might confess a current or past wrong of my own and then point out that I see the same in them, and suggest we pray about it and help one another to do better. I know I need to get better at that and extend my range. I think my problem may be that I have too many boulders to move out of my way.

  52. cherielyn says:

    pooh,

    Re: your post of October 15, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    What you said resonated with me in so many ways. When I was a child I went to Bible camp for 2 weeks every summer. There were contests for learning Bible verses and, through the years, many of those verses have come to mind at times I needed them most, but that is not the same as reading through the whole Bible.

    I hate to admit it, but although I have been a Christian since age 9 (or was it 1992?), it wasn’t until the JW’s began paying me visits, in about 2004, that I actually gave thought to reading the Bible from cover to cover. They brought up so many things that didn’t ring true to me. Being one of those people who has a need and thirst for knowledge (of all kinds) naturally, I had to start doing a lot of research to refute (at least for myself) what they were claiming.
    As a result I started a ‘Read Through the Bible in a Year’ program beginning in 2005. I read through it every year through 2009, a couple times chronologically. In 2010 I made it all the way through to mid-November. I can’t remember what happened at that time that stopped me. I have made several attempts, since then, to get back into the routine, but problems keep surfacing that hinder me from doing it.

    I know that each time through I discovered something new. I think it is so neat that God will use the exact same text to teach us something new that we hadn’t seen the last time we read it.

    You are right! There is nothing like having that foundation. It is the only way to know, when you read books by other people, His Word coming back to your mind points out errors that go against Scripture.

    It IS sad to hear the facts about Bible illiteracy in the church, especially amoung believers. The 11% you stated was astounding to me!

  53. cherielyn says:

    Pooh,

    Still making my way down the list of responses to this subject and hadn’t yet gotten to the one where you asked for prayer for the father of your children when I posted my last response to a post of yours.

    I WILL be praying for a full recovery for him and that He will see the Lord’s hand in all of this.

    Narrow,
    You are in my prayers daily. I pray that the day will come that you will no longer feel oppressed by all the negativity that surrounds you.

    Thank you for letting me know you are thinking of me, also. Yes, things have gotten somewhat worse. My son is having hallucinations (dementia related) of people coming into his apartment and stealing things. My dad had the same kind of dementia and one of his hallucinations was of children with deformed heads under his couch cushions. It is called Lewy Body demetia. Dr Lewy was a partner of Dr Alzheimer in researching various types of dementia.

    On to reading further posts.

  54. Bill says:

    @cherielyn, thank you for your comments re: my post. I will, indeed, pray for you and your situation. We all will.

    @pooh, I know what you mean when you wrote:

    “It seems like understanding what real love really looks like by the examples we are given in scripture Jesus never held back truth but put forth if one thinks it looks like this then He pushed it a little further. Jesus seemed to consider as love what is in the best interest of others above Himself. Sometimes that best interest may not be all soft and fuzzie but it seemed to spur others on to be better. Never holding back on correction or conviction if we are going to wrong way that would not be a responsible way to treat those we love.”

    But I am reminded of one of the most famous stories in the Bible: the woman caught in adultery, “in the very act.” (KJV, John 8)

    If Jesus shared your opinion to “Never hold back on correction or conviction,” the woman would have gotten an earful. Or worse. Jesus would have done what the scribes and Pharisees wanted him to do: stone her.

    He did not. He simply said, “sin no more.”

    And I get the feeling from the context that he didn’t say it in a stern voice, or meanly. He was probably as tender as tender could be.

    I don’t believe it is our job to point out the wrongs in others. I believe it is our job to set them free from their situations — even when they are caught-red-handed guilty.

    To me, that starts, and ends, with kindness and love.

    Which is harder to do — correct and convict? or embody Jesus’ kind of love?

    If you want to know what religion looks like when it de-emphasizes love and exists only to punish the wrongdoer, take a look at Islam. YouTube is full of videos of women who are stoned to death, whipped until their backs are bloody, hung in the public square, disfigured with acid, or beaten with a club. Whenever I am tempted to point out the wrongs in others, I just remember the looks of pain and terror on the women’s faces in those videos.

    And my heart breaks.

  55. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, I DO understand your concern for us as believers to do far better than we are in DOING what He tells us to do in His word. Unfortuantely, I do not know ANYONE personally that even comes close to being genuinely Christlike. I can look at the billionaires that greedily want MORE money and have little to no concern for those going hungry and think I am better because I do care about the hungry and homeless. HOWEVER, as little as I own, I have MUCH that I don’t need. My car is 10 years old and paid for, but since I retired I put on less than 50miles a week so I have less than 80,000 miles on it. The way I have been looking at it lately is that with maintenance, insurance, MV fees, taxes, and gas that it costs me about 50 dollars everytime I take it out. Our area provides “dial a ride” service for the elderly and handicapped and the elderly are free! I could provide a vehicle for someone who really needs it in addition to feeding the hungry with the money it costs me to keep that car. I have not sold all I have and given to the poor…and therefore I am no more Christlike than the greediest among us. I think we ALL NEED to start doing better, but as for ME, I don’t. So while I understand your frustration…I think maybe we EACH need to start trying to do better ourselves and I see myself on the top of that list

  56. poohpity says:

    Was not, go and sin no more, a correction filled with grace? When I read my Bible the Lord points out things to me as in conviction and then with grace and mercy helps change the way I am going. I understand that it is He who is in charge of removing those boulders so that I can not boast. My responsibility is to go to Him admit my sin and remain so close to Him that I begin to look like Him (abiding). Legalism seems to say the way I choose to live is how I expect others to live. It has been my experience that as the leaves fall the things that I once did I no longer do, not through the continued effort in my own strength but by the Lord working in my life.

  57. cherielyn says:

    Steve,

    Re: your post of October 16, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Very well thought out and expressed. Food for thought for me. Also made me think of confeticat & wonder how he is doing. I have prayed that God will minister to him in the way that only HE CAN which will help lead confeticat to a fuller and deeper understanding of His Word.

    Confeticat, If you still visit and read the blog, just know you are in my prayers.

  58. narrowpathseeker says:

    Yikes…I don’t HOW what ever came after “I don’t” got deleted to sound like I don’t need to start doing better…FORGIVE ME, that is not what was there!! I can’t recall what I wrote but the gist of it was that I don’t see myself as any better than those I think are heartless for those suffering from lack until I do more than I do now…..I am sure glad I saw that!! yikes again!!

  59. Bill says:

    @pooh, “Was not, go and sin no more, a correction filled with grace?”

    Yes. And no.

    It may be a very mild form of correction. But it’s certainly not “conviction.”

    If “sin no more” was all Christians said to a sinning brother or sister (or even a non-believer), then I’d be on board with the “correction and conviction” idea. But it isn’t. How many of us have been on the receiving end of a scripture-filled diatribe (or have seen it done to others) in which the correction part was very heavy-handed, and the forgiveness and love part was almost an afterthought?

    People live in a state of guilt, remorse, sadness, and regret. They know what that means — before they sin, during their sin, and after their sin. Any “correction and conviction” I heap on them only makes them feel worse. And I don’t believe it exemplifies Jesus’ attitude toward humanity.

    Jesus didn’t add any verses to the situation of the woman caught in adultery. He didn’t lash the woman with scripture. He didn’t say, “Now, you KNOW adultery is wrong, don’t you?” or “What’s wrong with you? Don’t you realize that the wages of sin is death?” or “You’re not going to be able to fellowship with us unless you repent of your sin and stop committing adultery.”

    There was none of that. No berating. No belittling. No reminders. No threats. Nothing.

    It was a mere, “sin no more.” That was it.

    Christians are very good at “correction and conviction.” They’re not so good at looking at the loving and forgiving part.

    I would rather err on the side of loving and forgiving than on the side of “correction and conviction.”

    But, again, this is just my opinion. I may be wrong. And I’m certainly not saying anyone else has to conduct themselves that way. That’s just the way I choose to live my Christian life.

    Your mileage may vary. :)

  60. phpatato says:

    Reading the posts and all I can say is GREAT STUFF!!

    I am chewing on them all as I go about my day. I love this site. Thank you Mart.

    Pooh – I will keep your friend in my prayers. Is the low O2 sat reading a result of the accident or is this a reoccurring medical condition?

    Cherielyn and Narrow – I think of you both many times. In my mind, I seem to connect with each of you and your life experiences. Please know though, that I often think of everyone here at BTA. I whisper prayers for each of you when your name comes to mind.

    Amazed – Like Steve, I will pray for God’s protection to surround you and for His strength to keep you strong and not fearful.

    I so wish we could speak in person with each other. I may not be so timid expressing/explaining myself then. Besides, I could give each and every one of you a hug every day!

    God’s Blessings to all

  61. poohpity says:

    Gee Bill is that what I said? Correction with grace means to me, stop what you were doing so therefore correcting the path she was currently on by the grace she received from Jesus. The conviction was as applied to me when I read scripture by the Lord knowing that He will also help me change in the areas of conviction. Not as in shame but changing direction, not on my own but with the Lord’s presence in my life. Guilt seems to be a good thing if it spurs on change while shame on the other hand does not offer a solution but is degrading.

  62. davids says:

    Loved Ones, even though we don’t contribute daily, there are many of us that follow this blog frequently and really appreciate the sharing here. There have been so may thought-provoking posts.

    Sometimes a single statement by you (Steve, Bill, Pooh, Gary, maru, cherielyn, narrowpathseeker, etc.) sets me off thinking how I ought to think and behave.

    Deb, praying for the father of your children, as well as you and Shana and the rest of the family.

  63. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… I think I get your point on “correction and conviction.
    You seem to feel they do not go ‘need’ to go together.
    That even Christ did not dish them out together, as if it would not be Christ-like or loving to hurt anybodies feelings.

    You said… It was a mere, sin no more, that was it.

    I’m not trying be a biblical scholar here, but what is brought to my mind whenever this story is presented, would be that we should not dismiss that as a mere, sin no more, but remember that Christ used this appointed moment in time for a very all inclusive teaching of conviction, saying, “Let the one who is without sin throw the first stone!”
    That is the story!
    Conviction wasn’t mere, it was however thrown in the faces of all, and everyone present who had ears, heard it and felt it to the depths of their very being.

    Now, I’m not going to ask you again if you have ever read the bible, because I know how it feels to be asked here, and unfortunately, I’ve seen it applied to others here many times. So, asking such things presented in those terms has turned others away, just like the ones who gathered to throw the stones of death upon the one Christ actually saved that day!
    Christ convicted all, by his using accusing words that have very deep outcomes upon the ones that were found guilty, but, upon the “convicted and corrected” however, those words would only apply to the “adulterer,” and only if she has repented and really did not repeat that now corrected sin, and repeat it no more!
    That is where, application is everything, and hearing is only by those who are given His understanding.

    But, that would only be my opinion, and would probably apply only to those who identify with it, and would not apply to those who only stand as one always convicted, and not yet ever corrected!
    So, our being commanded and convicted but still not yet corrected in our walk, says to me, we are only merely lukewarm at best. Yes, we may have been saved on a particular day, and we can Thank God. But, if we are not living the Spirit Filled Life we are not really Following Jesus, but merely walking our own way. Although we may still feel directed somehow because we read the bible… I ask you all here, who have ears to hear, by who’s following and direction, do you now sin?
    If your feeling only convicted, that question was probably found as unloving to you.
    But, if you are now correctly walking, then you are truly living free and being both convicted and corrected!
    Gary

  64. narrowpathseeker says:

    Several years ago I typed, laminated, and hung on the B R wall, something I had found in a book I was reading. I had run a gold string through the top and hung it on a tack so I could take it down and read it daily. It has been a very long time now since I have even noticed it hanging below the mirror but this morning it just fell off the wall before my feet. I couldn’t even remember what it was all about, so of course I read it and I thought immediately of sharing it with you all. I am sorry I don’t know who to credit for the words, but of course I credit the Lord for putting it at my feet this morning.

    As fire melts unrefined silver, bringing the impurities to the surface, so trials bring the “scum” to the top of our lives. When we praise God in the midst of a trial, we cooperate with His plan to remove the “scum”; when we complain we resist His plan and stir the impurities right back into our character. This means that God to accomplish His good purposes, may have to send or permit another trial; it may delay the unfolding of His good plan for us and our loved ones. Praise tunes out the conflicting voices that shatter our faith and block our love; and it tunes us into God’s guidance so that we can discern what action to take if any. When we praise we enthrone God in our lives and circumstances and He manifests His presence in a special way. With God nothing is accidental, nothing is incidental, and no experience is wasted. He holds in His own Power, our every breath of life and all our destiny. And every trial that He allows is a platform on which He reveals Himself, showing His Love and Power to us and to others looking on.

  65. poohpity says:

    Gary, what is a Spirit Filled life to you? What does that look like and what do you base that opinion on? Do you base it on what the Bible says or what you think it looks like?

  66. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth depends on who is doing the dividing! Gary

  67. poohpity says:

    Are you not able to answer that question? There is no division there at all, it is in black and white. You said, “But, if we are not living the Spirit Filled Life we are not really Following Jesus, but merely walking our own way.” I was asking you what a Spirit filled life looks like to you. Back up what you yourself wrote rather than condemning me for pointing people to read the Bible. Stand up for what you say and show us the way since you feel so free to point out our sin and how wrong living by grace is.

    If you want to live your life in the old wine skin (following the law) and condemn others for living in the new wine and wine skin (living under grace) then you will burst. Acts 4:10-11 NLT

  68. poohpity says:

    OOps that was Acts 15:10-11 NLT

  69. poohpity says:

    Gal 5:1-2 NLT; Gal 5:3-4 NLT; Gal 5:5-6 NLT; Gal 5:18 NLT

  70. poohpity says:

    Gal 5:22-23 NLT

  71. Bill says:

    I think we have to be careful how we post here. We don’t want to use words or phrases that can lead to confrontation. We’re all on the same team. Plus, all we’re doing is offering opinions. Not a single one of us can lay claim to absolute biblical correctness, no matter how many verses we cite to support our opinions. They’re still opinions, and will remain so until we can ask God himself what this verse or that passage “meant.”

    However, I suspect that in heaven none of this will matter. :)

  72. narrowpathseeker says:

    I think that you may be right about none of this will matter in Heaven…the key words here may be “in Heaven”. I worry about getting there, inasmuch as those to whom Jesus said, “depart from me, I never knew you” seemed to not only know scripture, but practiced some of it. This that you wrote yesterday, “I would rather err on the side of loving and forgiving than on the side of “correction and conviction.” seems to me to be the better choice in becoming more like Jesus.

  73. oneg2dblu says:

    Thanks Bill!
    I like to talk here using mostly my words and interject supporting verses occaisionally, not generate just a stream of verses which are not conversation at all, but a littany of supporting further discord.
    Here’s a single dividing thought using conversational verse which supports what Christ claims about division… and “Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth.”

    Luke 12:51,52,53 NIV
    “Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other! From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against-or two in favor and three against. Father will be divided against son and son against father; mother against daughter and daughter against mother; and mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter in law against mother in law.”

    It is Christ who divides and brings us together, and that makes all the difference.

    “In my humble opinion, His verses about division all add up to be Rightly Dividing, and a Word of Truth.”

    Gary

  74. narrowpathseeker says:

    Bill, I sure thought I typed your name at the beginning of the post at 1:41. Sorry, I am sure you knew it was you I was addressing but your name was accidently ommitted.

    Sparrow and Cherielyn, thank you for your thoughts and prayers. I also think it would be great to all get together someday……which we most likely will SOMEDAY!:-)

    Forever, I enjoyed your story about the boy and his bike….especially the ending.

    Steve, I hope all is well with you. You are seldom absent from the discussion and when you are I miss you.

  75. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… I believe the Spirit filled life is, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth.
    Wicked living however, is wrongly dividing the word of truth in my opinion.
    So, all attending church, all being baptized, all tithing, all reading the word of God many times through and still living a helplessly wicked life, is wrongly dividing the Word of Truth.
    Spirit Filled people “will live” by the fruit of the Spirit, and not continue to abide in the wicked living of Pagans and the like, which IS what we see today among the churched who believe a falsehood that their sin has no real eternal bearing on them, and change need not be evident in their life.
    Yes, I live by Grace, just as we all live by Grace, as we are blessed to live in the Age of Grace.
    That is in my humble opinion, Gary

  76. foreverblessed says:

    Narrow, and thank you for your great story, just after mine, I really rejoice with you, what a great God we have, who gently teaches us. Thank you, and praise God, for He is good, He was good to you, He was good to this student in my story.
    And Pooh, thanks a lot for your: as fire melts unrefined silver.
    This is a message I have been receiving several times now this week, and now from you again: Rejoice in your suffering! Otherwise God has to do it all over again in me, until I rejoice in hardship. (I believe this message is not for newcomers in the faith, the Holy Spirit starts with comforting lots and lots, reassurance, and love.)
    This is also in the bible: Peter writes about it.

    Cherielyn mentioned Confeticat, lately I had someone being upset by christians who follow a certain dutch preacher who lives in Jerusalem now, walking on the wall everyday, and praying. But he has a strong message to christians here, and I find it a bit hard, is this God inspired or is it not? The man who inspires him is called Ron Moseley, who teaches that God is not going to marry a Bride , as a Body of christians, but God is going to marry Israel, His fistborn son.
    Well, I did not do an indepth study of all his writings.
    Point is, this person said, many of her christians friends want to keep the seventh day now, and all the Festivals.
    In that case I think the verses Pooh gave are appropriate: Gal 5:1-2,3-4,18
    and for circumcision you can write: keeping days holy, which is a matter of the earth, worldly matters: time, space, food.
    But if Jesus lives in us, we live in the Spirit reality, and all these things have been fulfilled in us.
    All that matters is faith expressing itself in love.
    Love you all.

  77. Bill says:

    Hi narrow,

    I knew your post was addressed to me. Thank you for commenting.

    You wrote, “I worry about getting there, inasmuch as those to whom Jesus said, “depart from me, I never knew you” seemed to not only know scripture, but practiced some of it.”

    There are some denominations that teach a kind of “works” theology, meaning members have to keep current on your good works (almost like paying union dues) or they won’t make it to heaven.

    Catholicism was that way, too. Might still be, to a small extent. But that’s what the Reformation was all about.

    Only you and God know your heart. I have nothing to say on this matter, other than you appear to be someone deeply committed to the Lord and knowledgeable of his word. I’m not sure, if I were you, that I’d worry about making it to heaven.

    But, again, I don’t know you, your heart, or your walk with God. That’s between the two of you.

    You also wrote, “…seems to me to be the better choice in becoming more like Jesus.”

    I am doing that.

    The way I understand the Bible, my walk is not your walk. Your walk it not pooh’s walk. Pooh’s walk is not Marts, Steve’s, Sparrow’s, Cherielyn’s, or Gary’s. My walk is to try to be as loving, forgiving, compassionate, and loving as possible. That’s my “ministry.” For that reason, I believe I am being like Jesus — based on my understanding of Jesus as I read about him in the Bible.

    If I don’t seem that way to you, that’s okay. You’re free to agree or disagree as you see fit. It doesn’t offend me.

    This passage has always intrigued me:

    “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)

    I believe “…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” means each of us is to live the Christian life as best we can, in a manner unique to each of us, as we understand the scriptures.

    That’s the only way that makes sense to me. We’ll never all agree. We don’t look the same, talk the same, think the same, are interested in the same things, have the same talents, come from the same families or live in the same cities — or even countries. We as different from each other as grains of sand are on the beach. We’re all “sand-like.” But we are all uniquely different.

    I believe churches/authors/ministries that try to make us all the same are in error. If God had meant us all to think and act exactly the same, we wouldn’t have been given the capacity for individual thought — or the free will to live by it.

    That’s why my posts usually contain the phrase, “This is just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.” I am not a biblical scholar. Even if I was, that doesn’t mean anything. Even scholars merely espouse opinions. We’re free to disagree with biblical scholars, too.

    As pooh has said, we each have a Bible to read. As we do, it speaks to each of us differently. At that point, it would be wrong of me — once I have gleaned a bit of awareness, a epiphany about something — to standardize it, to make it an absolute, to tell you “this is how it must be done.” That’s baloney. I don’t know how it must be done in your life. That’s between you and God.

    That’s why these discussions are academic, purely for entertainment purposes. If we get so upset by comments, questions, challenges, even debates that we get angry and break off fellowship, we’re missing the point of it all. Life is a dry run. It only lasts, maybe 75-80 years. During our time here, we each have a mission, a path. I am on mine.

    And you are on yours.

    Whether you know it or not, whatever you say and do, how you conduct yourself, how you interact, what you do and how you treat friends, family members, and loved ones…it’s all your path.

    Walk with with joy and compassion and love and you’ll have no regrets when you get to the end of your path.

    Again, this is just my opinion. In the grand scheme, I’m no more important than anyone else. So take what I post with a shaker of salt.

  78. phpatato says:

    @ Bill

    AMEN!!!!

  79. poohpity says:

    So Bill, it seems your conclusion is that all scripture means different things to different people? Then what was meant in Luke 24:25-45 NLT; and what Mart said; “that all of the Bible points to Christ (all that is true, beautiful, courageous, self-sacrificing and good—being personified and fulfilled in who he was, and what he did and all that is false, deceitful, misleading, and hurtful combining to show us what he came to die for).

    Do not each of our “walks” guide us in the same direction although the Lord deals with each individually which would be contrary to what you suggest?

  80. phpatato says:

    Pooh

    I think what Bill meant and this is my opinion, is that yes every Christian’s walk should be toward Christ. Keeping our eyes on Him will keep us from all kinds of what I call “self-inflicted wounds”. Where you look is where you’ll walk in common sense language. (Did you know that when you go out of control say on ice, you steer to where you are looking. Experts say that you should look to where you want to go and you will go there.) Sorry for the side note but it applies..look to Jesus and you will walk toward Him.

    I think you and Bill are on the same page. Our walk is as individual as we are and the Lord deals with each of us individually. We are not all on the same rung of the ladder. Common sense says that if we were, life would be boring; the rung would break from the weight; we would be robots (etc etc). How He deals with you won’t be the same as how He deals with me. So scripture isn’t standardised because a verse to you when you read it may not pop out on the page like it would for me.

    When we each read the Bible, the Holy Spirit speaks to each of us through His word depending on how mature we are in our walk. So in that sense, scripture does mean different things to different people. It’s all about whether you are on solid food and I am still on formula. The Bible never changes but our walk does. And as Bill said, and I will add to, as long as we walk with Love, compassion and joy and as long as we keep focused on Phil 4:8 NIV …Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.”, we should have no regrets at the end of our path.

    I’ll pass the salt shaker on…..

  81. Bill says:

    Hi pooh!

    I’m sorry. I don’t understand what you wrote, especially your last paragraph. It appears to imply that you think we should all do the same things, the same way, at the same time — sort of like a lock-step troop of soldiers passing for inspection.

    Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote, just as you appear to have misunderstood what I wrote.

    Or maybe you disagree with what I wrote, which is fine, too. It’s okay to disagree.

    Just because “…all of the Bible points to Christ” does not mean we all agree on what the Bible means in every verse — or that we fully understand all there is to know about the Bible. After all, entire denominations have sprung up (or split off) over disagreements about parts of the Bible.

    I don’t think I’m revealing anything surprising when I say that Bible scholars, theologians, pastors and laypeople alike have disagreed, sometimes sharply, about what the Bible means — and have from the beginning. Even on those occasions when we all do agree, precisely, on a verse or passage, it’s possible God may have spoken to someone about one of those verses so that it, in effect, “means” something different to him or her.

    But what the Bible means is not what I wrote about in my post. I wrote about our individual walks.

    Think of Christians as being like snowflakes. No two are alike. Yet, together, we collectively form a beautiful blanket of white. It’s not my job to tell this snowflake or that snowflake how to be, where to go, what to do. Each snowflake goes where it will, as it is directed by unseen forces.

    Or maybe I’m like Forrest Gump. I go where my shoes take me, doing no harm.

    Relax, pooh. It’s okay for all of us to be different from one another, not agreeing on everything.

    It’s all good.

    Bill

  82. poohpity says:

    So Pat, Bill really did not mean, “The way I understand the Bible, my walk is not your walk.” That to me says every person’s understanding of the Bible is different, not that our understanding grows depending on maturity level. Bill seems to be saying there is no absolute truth it is relevant to what that truth is to each person which is what philosophy dictates not what the Bible seems to teach.

    Just like Gary said, “I believe the Spirit filled life is, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth.” So just because Gary believes that means it is that way according to that type of thinking.

    When I say anything I will preface it by saying “it seems” or “could it be” or “the way I understand it” which gives way to correction and being wrong.

  83. phpatato says:

    I’m sorry Deb but I can’t see how you are seeing it when you said “Bill really did not mean, “The way I understand the Bible, my walk is not your walk.”…. I think he did mean exactly that.

    But….

    That doesn’t make you wrong or right and that doesn’t make Bill wrong or right and it doesn’t even make me wrong or right just because we can’t see what the other is saying.

    If only we could all be in the same room together. We’d be able to explain ourselves so much better.

    Love to both of you – my dear brother and sister!

  84. Bill says:

    Hi again pooh,

    I can’t figure out how you’d derive anything about “absolute truth” (or, by implication, relativism ) from the sentence, “The way I understand the Bible, my walk is not your walk.”

    Also, I don’t understand why you keep writing this, or a variation thereof:

    * When I say anything I will preface it by saying “it seems” or “could it be” or “the way I understand it” which gives way to correction and being wrong. *

    Nobody here is posting anything other than 100% opinion. Even you. This is a forum. That we are posting our opinions should be a given.

    Not everyone is the same, pooh. We do not all have to agree on everything. Or even agree with you. Disagreeing does not mean we have fallen into relativism, just as agreeing does not mean we embrace absolutes.

    I love you as a sister in the Lord. I respect you as a person. I gain much from your contributions to BTA. But you are not the final arbiter of what the Bible says, or what it means. You’re just one voice, just as I am. We all have a voice, and an opinion. It is illogical to think we should always agree, all the time, about every jot and tittle. On some things, we may. On other things, we may not.

    Life is way, way too short to split theological hairs all the time. I consider that a waste of time, energy, joy, and opportunities.

    Of course, if that’s how you like to spend your time, that’s okay. I won’t try to stop you. What you do with your life is between you and God.

    But such hair splitting is not how I want to spend my time, though.

    Bill

    P.S. Every word of this post is 100% my opinion. I am 100% open to changing my mind based on new things learned. I am 100% grateful to everyone who posts here, and 110% grateful to those who take the time to read what I write. Above all, I am 100% respectful of all persons. I mean no harm, and intend no insult.

    P.P.S. php, that’s it exactly. Thank you.

  85. phpatato says:

    p.s. And…

    “Bill seems to be saying there is no absolute truth it is relevant to what that truth is to each person which is what philosophy dictates not what the Bible seems to teach.”

    I don’t think Bill seems to be saying that at all. At least by how I read his post, and I have reread his posts just to be sure that I read what I thought I read.

    I’ve tried to help with this. I will back out now for fear of adding to the confusion. Forgive me if I was out of line for getting involved as it was not really my business to stick my nose in. A busybody I don’t want to be – I just thought I could help.

    Gee I’ve said that before I think. hmmmmmm

  86. narrowpathseeker says:

    I just looked at the date and realized that my beloved sister died 1 1/2 years ago today. I loved her and miss her very much. However, she was a very difficult woman to understand. She was very intelligent and she would “give the shirt off her back” so to speak, to anyone who needed it. Her husband filed bankruptcy, she divorced him, and she refused to sign the bankruptcy papers and continued paying on those debts till the day she died. She was a hard worker and had exceptionally good work ethics. She was always there for me when I was in need, and I knew I could always count on her to do whatever she could to help. The difficult part was that she was the most oppositional person I ever knew. She lived to argue anything she thought could get somebody going and if it got heated, she got mean and said things to hurt people. I never understood how she could be so kind and so mean. Moreover, she seemed to really believe that those of us that disagreed with her were being mean to her. STILL I loved her and was so happy that she let go of all the hatred and made peace with God before she died. She made peace with her children as well. I believe she was reunited with a son and daughter that predeceased her and that they are all with the Lord. I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but whenever I come upon an ongoing debate, I think of her.

  87. SFDBWV says:

    Narrowpathseeker thank you for your concern for my seeming absence from yesterday’s thread of comments. My days like many of us here are filled with activities that sometimes overwhelm us and if I am to post it is usually done early before things get too hectic.

    Many times I will start a comment then have to keep coming back and try and finish it, once that turns into too long a time, I just delete all and forget trying to contribute for another day.

    Today will be a crushing day of activities, and it all begins in the next hour and will conclude as the sunsets on the day.

    It’s ok for this is the life God has set before me and the best I can do is, do the best I can.

    Often I am led to make a comment and sometimes I am led to stay silent, I admit it is difficult sometimes to stay silent, and sometimes best not to feed the fire of someone else’s discontent.

    I have told many stories of my own life, as I think this is the best way to show God; a personal God and one who walks step by step with me through life. This to me is what the Bible is, a story of God and man and all the things that go right and go wrong all the while God working to bring about His will.

    I also like seeing into the lives of all who participate here, our personalities quickly become transparent when we are honest and even sometimes when some are not.

    We are people, the salt of the earth as Jesus called us; wouldn’t it be a lousy soup to have only one herb or flavoring and not all the other ingredients that make it tasty and *flavorful*?

    My prayer this morning is for all of you to have a very blessed day.

    It is 31 and crackling clear here this morning, how I do enjoy that predawn sky when filled with stars and planets. I took down the hummingbird feeders yesterday to force my last remaining hummingbird to leave for warmer weather, as the feeders were becoming overwhelmed with yellowjackets that were bent on drowning themselves in the sugar water.

    See you all tomorrow.

    Steve

  88. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Narrow, praise God that your sister let go of all the hatred and made peace with God. God’s goodness is so great, He keeps waiting for us.
    Thanks Bill for your comments, I say amen to them, thanks phpatato.
    And what a strange debate this is Pooh, I do not understand this at all. Why would you feel like you do? Why can’t you say amen to what Bill writes? Yesterday we had the church housegroup, and the same thing happened there to me, miscommunication: how others misinterpret what you say, and give it another meaning what I did not intend to say. I didn’t want it, I wanted peace, but the debate kept going on. Isn’t it good to go and pray together, ask for Gods grace and peace and we receive it in Jesus’ name. Because of Him we can have grace and peace. We did pray at the end like this, and the peace of God came over me. But at home again, I have to fight to keep it that way. To focus my mind on Jesus, and praising Him, and not think over how others misinterpret what you say, no stop thinking about that, going back to praising God.
    Praising God is not putting your head in the sand for not seeing what is wrong, it is lifting your head up out of this sour climate up into heavenly spheres. Heaven is here right now, when we reach out to it, and believe that Jesus is stronger then all the fighting.

  89. oneg2dblu says:

    Good morning All…Thank God we all live by His Grace! If we got what we deserved when we first met Him, not to mention what we deserve even now after knowing and following him to the best of our abilities, we would all still be doomed.
    But, God is a man of His Word, and His Word is not going to be altered by us. He is for us, and we never forget that when we live by Faith and not by sight.
    Under His Protection, Provision, and His Promises, do we live and breathe and have our being in Him. Gary

  90. fadingman says:

    Mart, you said:

    “Seeing that many of us hurt inside more than we let on, which means that others are hurting far more than we realize.

    “Discovering that our calling is to love rather than to condemn, without neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process.

    My wife and I had a very close friend, who was a strong believer and an elder in his church. He was a very loving husband to his wife. But without any warning to anyone, he committed suicide less than two weeks ago.

    He had been suffering from extreme back pain, and felt he could not take it anymore. We all knew about the pain, but we didn’t know he had come to this point. What made it worse was he took his life in his bedroom with a gun, and his wife found him in that state. Needless to say, she’s all undone over this.

    But even though this is a very tough time, she has been receiving much support from family and friends, and she will come through.

    Her pastor preached an excellent message at the funeral, the essence of which was that we all need to love one another by caring for each other, being open with each other, bearing each other’s burdens, etc, because there may be others who are thinking of taking their own lives and are hiding it. This is not a time for condemnation but for love and support.

  91. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, I’m glad all is ok with you. I believe God has given you much Wisdom and I love reading your comments.

    Foreverblessed, I am sorry you were misunderstood in your group, but so glad that you are focused on God instead of worrying about who misunderstood what and why. Staying in touch with God all the day long is so important and yet “I” way too often get distracted at times that I most NEED to be in touch…thank you for the reminder.

    Pat, I see you as a PEACEMAKER and not a “busybody” at all. Have a wonderful day.

    I just have to share the devotional that came in first thing this morning. I am going to print it out and hang it up in a few different places so I don’t forget to rememeber it. I hope it jumps out at someone here as clearly as it jumped out at me…Have a wonderful day EVERYONE!!…I have a busy day ahead, like Steve, so I best get moving…God Bless us ALL.

    Here’s that devotional.

    1 Peter 5:8
    Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

    Be careful. Be alert. Two hidden eyes are zeroed in on you. The beast is hungry and he is stalking his prey. He is deceptive and deceitful. He will lure you in with what is alluring to you. He will make sin seem innocent. He will make folly feel fun. He makes the first step of disobedience appear to be solid ground. Lying is his native language. He is not all-knowing, but he knows all about the human condition. He sets his traps accordingly.

    He is the author of confusion. He makes lust feel like love. He makes luxuries look like necessities. He can make us mistake selfish ambition for God’s will. His offerings are sweet and he keeps them coming until our soul is nauseated. He makes gross sin enjoyable…for a short time. He blinds us with shiny things. By the time we come to our senses, we are entangled in his snare.

    So, be careful. Be alert. You will need to be in constant communication with the Father. You will need to keep following hard after the Son. You will survive only by the power of the Spirit. Don’t drop your guard! The beast is hungry and he is stalking his prey.

    Father, remind us often that, on our own, we are no match for Satan. Give us strength to stand firm and resist him. Please keep us alert and self-controlled. In Jesus’ name. Amen.

  92. narrowpathseeker says:

    P.S. Bill…. I offer yet another AMEN to your message.

    Pooh, I am still praying for you and hope that whatever is bothering you is Resolved and that His Peace may come upon you. Hang on Pooh, I think we all have our dark days. Maybe it is so that we will be reminded not to take His Light “lightly”.

  93. Bill says:

    @fadingman, thank you for sharing that heartbreaking story.

    I believe you captured with that one tale what I’ve tried for many words to explain. Your last paragraph was as somber, yet full of promise, as any I’ve ever read:

    “Her pastor preached an excellent message at the funeral, the essence of which was that we all need to love one another by caring for each other, being open with each other, bearing each other’s burdens, etc, because there may be others who are thinking of taking their own lives and are hiding it. This is not a time for condemnation but for love and support.”

    That’s my “ministry” — to be a healer, a person who loves, draws people together, and helps them see that we are all human beings. It doesn’t matter how precisely we believe this or that verse, or even how well we understand the grand ebb and flow of God’s plans (because, truly, we don’t know them).

    What matters is that there are likely many people in a similar situation to that poor woman’s husband — hanging by a thread of hope.

    Wasn’t it Thoreau who wrote, “Most men lead lives of quiet desperation”?

    I believe that.

    And I believe what the late Stephen R. Covey said in one of his lectures on the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. He said something like this:

    “Never take away a man’s hope. Sometimes that’s all he has.”

    Every encounter we have with another human being gives us an opportunity to be Jesus’ love here on earth.

    We can be hope, or we can be condemnation, love or anger…a listening ear, or a cold shoulder.

    We are God’s arms of love on earth.

    Have you used yours to hug, or be hugged, today? :)

  94. Bill says:

    Thank you, narrow.

    I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the posts of everyone here. Every time Steve or Bob or forever or pooh or you or Gary or php or others chime in, I am amazed by the collective wisdom, humor, insight, and feelings of good will. The wealth of insight and talent here is noteworthy.

    I’m so sorry to hear about your sister. But I am glad you have noble memories of her and her ability to give without asking in return. I hope I may one day be as selfless as she was.

  95. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    Thanks for the devo above, NPS! I have checked in over the past while, but felt I had nothing to contribute to the discussion.

    This morning, Mart, I look with a new light upon the gorgeous tree showing its color in the fall air, and at the deer in the clearing, your illustrations for “As the Leaves Fall.” We are like these in our fleshly character: here for a while and then gone from the world as we know it.

    In this fall season, in the passing away of this world — one way or another — how will I share the absolute, eternal life I have been given in Jesus by grace through faith? It seems to me even arrogant evil-doers, such as I have surely been in my time, see the hope that is offered in the gospel message, without yet another sermon on ultimate judgment. I could be wrong on this, but I trust that the whole universe is a moral universe, because of Who created it.

    My prayer for today is that we each go forth — or stay at home — as living vessels of that precious good news. The smallest word of encouragement might halt the hasty action of a suicide or another act of cruelty. Condemnation is a fierce driver — sending some over-burdened souls over the cliff.

    Blessings always,
    Maru

  96. Bill says:

    Amen, Maru.

    Thank you for the reminder.

  97. narrowpathseeker says:

    Fadingman, I am so sorry for the loss of your friend. Thank you for sharing the pastor’s words at the funeral. It touched me deeply and reminded me that hurting people hurt people and I think may need our love and concern even more sometimes than the people they hurt.

    Bill, you sure are on a roll this week..yet ANOTHER …AMEN to “We are God’s arms of love on earth”.

    Yikes, I really have to get moving…love and “hugs” to ALL.

  98. poohpity says:

    If you would go back and reread what I wrote although it is not that important there was no animosity, anger, hatred or was it just asking for clarification. The assumption of hair splitting theology was not at all my intent but it seems as if I have been heard, judged before the jury and deemed guilty. Try reading it with a different tone than the one y’all suggest I was using. Nothing new for this group anyway, thanks for understanding my heart and motives, not. Sometimes it feels like the twilight zone when one says something then the others follow along right off the cliff. Could it at all be possible that others were the one’s feeling the animosity? Could it be possible?

  99. narrowpathseeker says:

    OK…I really DO have to get to Fall clean up, but the messages are so beaming with Love and Light that I can’t tear myself away. I am not going to even look to see if anyone posted anything else after I post this because I really do have to move on..and check back in tonight…I just couldn’t leave without saying

    MARU, THANK YOU for the prayer for each of us. I am feeling all the Love being shared here as late. It’s a beautiful day!!! God Bless us all!!

  100. poohpity says:

    I thought we were to think the best of someone before we jump to conclusions and form a mob mentality. That is the reason some of us ask for clarification before we form an opinion.

  101. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, I just came in for a short coffee break with no intention of turning on the pc, but felt strongly that I should. I hope you receive this with the Love it is intended to send. I confess that in the past, your manner of debate has often provoked anger in me and I am sorry if I have any part in provoking you to the same now. The Lord has once again cleansed my heart, and this response to your 10:02am post, is with genuine love and compassion. I think you are a very intelligent person with a kind heart and a real desire to serve the Lord. I am sorry but I also think something has taken hold of you to cause you much pain which is causing even more painful discord. If I am wrong, I am so sorry, but I have been there and it sure looks like the same place to me. I just want you to know that I am praying for you and hope you are up and over this very soon.

  102. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, Pooh, that is what I did, reading and rereading your comment of Oct 17, 7.45 pm, and you sound alarmed as if Bill is saying something very wrong. Do I have that wrong?

  103. poohpity says:

    I was not alarmed just was asking for clarification on his thoughts. Not even accusatory just confusion wanting to understand his stand. Never really got an answer from him.

    narrow, no matter what I am going through I am on a pretty even road. Many years ago I allowed circumstance to dictate my state of mind but after seeking much counseling I have learned to trust God more and more each day so my emotions do not rule me nor are they on a roller coaster being governed by happenings.

    There is a big difference in having a conversation and clarifying someone’s stance on things and accusing them by belittling statements regarding the character of that person. I give it my best shot always to not put someone else down because they may or may not agree with me nor does that affect my positive regard or respect for that person. Actually I respect a person more for talking like an adult and explaining to me if I have offended them in anyway or have misunderstood them.

    Over the last three years I have lost both parents, an Aunt, two very close friends, my therapy dog, my daughter to drugs, 2 hip surgeries, moved from the place I live for 10 years and also both children have moved out so I am going through the empty nest syndrome, lost all my family because of the decision I made to put my mom in Hospice (per her request) for the last week of her life, found out I have a heart problem, my step mom has tried to manipulate the grandchildren’s trust fund left to them from my dad so that she would buy them out at a loss of 1.2 million dollars for $16,000. Stuff happens everyday to everybody that should not effect how we treat others.

    I am not perfect nor have I learned how to express myself fully in this medium and because I know how sometimes things seem different than they really are I often give folks the benefit of the doubt. I am hearing the Kenny Rodgers song in my head so maybe the Lord is trying to tell me something, too. God bless you all in your quest to learn more about the Lord.

  104. foreverblessed says:

    God bless you too, dear Pooh, love you much. Yes we go on knowing more about Jesus, grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    So that in the end I will be like Him more.

  105. Bill says:

    @pooh, you’ve been through a lot. Possibly more than most. I am so sorry to hear about all those circumstances.

    I don’t think there’s a person here who can’t tell that you’re hurting. The comments I’ve read today indicate people can see something about you that you may not realize. It has to do with what you term “clarification,” which is perceived as confrontational because of your choice of words.

    Would you take this opportunity to feel our embrace, knowing that not a soul on BTA wants to see you to suffer?

    From all accounts, people here have the utmost respect and love for you. So you’re among friends. More than that, you’re among people who uplift you in prayer and seek God’s blessings for you.

    I am always available should you want to discuss something. Perhaps in the near future, BTA could be set up so that when we click on each others’ screen names it takes us to a profile page that contains our e-mail addresses. Then conversations could occur offline, possibly even voice to voice. Heart to heart.

    Or maybe Mart could set up a separate forum for deeper conversations about threads of our choosing, where we can delve more deeply into topics raised by Mart’s initial post. Or create a kind of “prayer room” for one another.

    I look forward to more posts and comments from you. I still learn much from you, as well as from everybody here.

  106. poohpity says:

    Most of my friends on here are also my friends off the blog. They have went through everything I have been through with prayers and encouragement over the last 4 years especially during the process of cancer. They know me personally and know that clarification is just that and not confrontation because they have taken the time to know me personally. I have no problems going to see my counselor when I need help for tune-ups whenever needed. Not to mention that is why I am so adamant about daily time spent with the Lord and His Word.

    When I make any decisions they are informed decisions that means to me listening to the pros and cons and balancing it with the Word of God. That is why when we hear something that may be different or at times the same ol same ol, clarification helps us to make an informed choice on whether something fits into what we currently believe or will prompt us to grow rather than being brittle in our thoughts but it also helps us to identify deception. There is nothing wrong with asking questions but sometimes not asking questions is not a very wise choice. I pray the day never comes when my friends stop holding me accountable if my thinking or actions are not congruent with my beliefs.

    Everything any of us goes through is to help us be empathic to others when they suffer but remaining close to the Lord helps us not become hardhearted towards others and I would not be able to hold my head up if I put people down during a disagreement or degraded their character because they challenged me on what I say. I got angry at one person on here and blasted him and that was Jack and I felt sorrow down to my bone for doing it. That to me that is what Mart was saying when he stated, “neglecting our responsibility to try and show good judgment in the process.”

  107. Bill says:

    That sounds great, pooh! I’m glad you have such a powerful support group.

    I just thought I’d offer to help.

    Looking forward to more posts from you.

  108. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, I, too, am sorry for all that you have been through…..especially losing your daughter. That alone, is difficult enough to get through. I will continue to pray for you.

  109. remarutho says:

    Dear Pooh —

    You remain in my prayers. May the Lord wrap arms of love about you and send you waves of mercy and grace by the blessed Holy Spirit.

    Yours,
    Maru

  110. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill…None of us can walk in another’s shoes. We can however, respond to how we are treated by another.
    Some times in the Spirit, and some times in the flesh.
    Everybody gets a turn when pressed to their limits.
    Some of us here are great at turning down the heat when it rises, and others seem to only stoke the fire.
    Bill you have always turned down the heat, and not turned off the conversation, and that is a gift and a ministry that you can not hide or need to explain here, because you live it daily in your responses and we love it!
    Unfortunately, there are others who have left and never returned, for them I am sorry the heat of battle overcame their sensibilities, but they saved themselves much. I totally understand their position.
    Their names are known here by more than just me, but it does not lend any resolve to further the anomaly of heated discussion and piling on, so I will not digress.
    I’ve done the dance of answering too many inquires that have taken on that extreme edge. So, I generally out of respect try to answer, but it never satisfies or stops the confrontation. I eventually leave those seemingly wasted words for others to glean?
    My only resource is to take it to the Lord and move on when He tells me to.
    That process of getting “out of the way,” out of the firing line has happened twice for me. I have had to excuse myself for forty days of fasting, for rest and reflection.
    I can tell you first hand that it is a cleansing experience, it also is a profitable and a painful one.
    Two forty day breaks and another break which I can not recall at the moment as to the amount of days taken.
    Unfortunately, this phenomenon of blogging for some personalities is dangerous, as it brings out the worst elements in their behavior as it generates a false sense of power that in face to face normal conversation could not ever emulate or naturally evolve in front of another who also loves the Lord.
    None of us will ever be perfected while in these worldly tents, but Praise God, He loves on us, works on us, and forgives us when we fail.
    If we could only forgive as He does, perfection would be at hand, before elevated words. In His Love, Gary

  111. phpatato says:

    Dearest Deb

    Please forgive me if I have caused any hurt or heartache to you. I was simply trying to explain the comments that Bill had made hoping that “another set of eyes” would be of help. When I read the words – accusing, belittling, disrespect…I am so sorry that you had to even type them because that means you must have felt them. Please forgive me if I had any part in that.

    You are in my prayers. I look forward to seeing that wonderful sense of humour that you so often decorate your posts with. xoxo

    Bill – “Perhaps in the near future, BTA could be set up so that when we click on each others’ screen names it takes us to a profile page that contains our e-mail addresses”……

    I think that would be a wonderful idea..much like friending someone on facebook..you have to click yes to give permission…perhaps?

  112. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, I am very glad that you came back and also glad that your breaks were beneficial to you. I don’t ALWAYS agree with some of your views, but I always enjoy reading your messages because they usually seem to glow with your passion for the Lord. Have a good night Gary and a blessed tomorrow.

  113. oneg2dblu says:

    narrowpathseeker… thank you for your words, rightly dividing the truth of your words brings us to both our differences and our concern for others.
    Your blog handle which I find most revealing, represents
    well, as do the words of Christ in Matthew 7:13,14 NIV
    or in Luke 13:24 NLT “Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail.”
    Work hard, means to me there is a work to do, and there is a needed effort in hard work, and many will not do it!
    That is what the Lord says “to me” through those verses, but I am one who desires discipline and effort, through constant seeking, constant relationship building, constant resisting of evil, and a constancy of keeping on, holding on, running the race, and finishing well in the Faith.
    Not just Faith for the sake of the gift we opened one day, but an ongoing faith and effort, as in work hard and PRODUCE FRUIT!
    I know there is a place of peace, a rest, fortitude in Christ only, a work of the blood and many other blessings that only God provides, Thank God!
    But, He also provides a Spirit in us, to help us to resist, to run the race, to hold on until the end, and we MUST obey that Spirit, or I feel, we fall victim to serving another spirit instead. For a divided house will certainly fall!
    Maybe my compunction or my calling is what it is because, my life experience is different than others here. I’m blessed to be blessed with certain gifts that others may not have as well, and so is my calling of obedience to the work effort. To me, His Word is ever showing us the warnings, and the law that was never taken away according to the words of Christ.
    Matthew 5:17,18 NLT is a partial teaching, true. But even its parts still stand today.
    We, who are in Christ, may not be Under the Law, but under Christ we still have the law, and like all His Words, they will stand forever as a guideline of where we should walk, and where we should not walk.
    In my humble opinion, serving both Christ and the warnings will not take away anything, but failing to obey is disobedience, which is another word displayed too many times to be not read seriously by me, and then to leave his word still not ever believing its warnings?
    It says to me, be forever warned, lest you fall away!
    My initial Salvation to me, was the beginning of the journey, not the final destination already achieved, like presented in some teaching that says,” No matter What!”
    So, if I err in my interpretation of the word, do I lose my salvation for obeying, resisting, holding on, and hard work?
    I believe, even my filthy rags are seen by an Almighty God, and maybe while they reek of works obedience to others here, to me, obedience is a fragrance that God desires. Your thermometer may read differently, Gary

  114. oneg2dblu says:

    PS…I just looked and it says 90 degrees in sunny Melbourne, Fl. But I’ll look again later, and I’ll find it changes with time just like the words we read and our interpretations that we now take away with us.
    Be Blessed!

  115. narrowpathseeker says:

    This morning I was shown a very consistent cycle of behavior that is disturbing at best and I have no idea what I am supposed to do with what I was shown. I feel strongly that I need to “BE STILL” until I hear from God on the matter. I just stopped by to say Hello and ask for prayers even though I can’t share what is disturbing me. Thank you and may you all have a Blessed day.

  116. Bill says:

    @narrow, the same thing happened to me, too.

    Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I hope you receive the answers you seek.

  117. poohpity says:

    There once was a person who thought they could swim so proceeded to jump into the water only to realize the skills needed were not there and began to sink. On their way down arms and legs were were flying all around struggling to stay a float.

    On the shore was a man who stood there watching the person struggling and struggling and did nothing to save the person drowning. When asked by another why he stood there and did nothing he did not answer because his eyes were intent on watching the struggling person. When the person drowning finally got so tried of the struggling that he gave up and started going under. At that point the man jumped into the water and brought the man back to shore.

    He then turned to the bystander and explained the reason for waiting so long to save the person drowning. While the drowning person was struggling and flip-flopping all around if I had jumped in to save them they would have pulled me down with them and then there would have been 2 drowning to death rather than 2 living and returning to shore.

    We can struggle and struggle to live the Christian life and it seems God will allow it until we reach a point when we stop struggling to do things in our own strength and understand what resting in Him really means and allowing Jesus to live His life in and through us.

  118. phpatato says:

    Narrow I will keep you in my prayers. I see you at your special place by the river, quiet with the Lord. Remember not to carry this with you to weigh you down, but to leave it with Him. He’ll show you in His perfect timing what you are to do.

    Hope you have a Blessed day as well.

    It’s been 2 years today that Mom stepped into the arms of her Lord and Saviour. I miss her so much but I find comfort knowing that she is no longer suffering. (Enjoy playing that pipe organ Mom)

  119. poohpity says:

    Thank you Maru for the heart felt prayers.

    Pat, I do not know what is in your heart but it did not sound like you were doing any of those things when you answered for Bill.

    The reason I ask questions is not because I am going through any emotional issues. That has no bearing on it at all. I would try and explain but I am sure it would make no difference anyway or get misunderstood at best.

  120. poohpity says:

    Mart, it would be nice if at some time we could discuss syncretism in religion.

  121. phpatato says:

    I don’t know what you mean Pooh Are you saying that I purposely tried to belittle and disrespect you?? I can assure you and God does indeed know my heart, I had no intention of being cruel, disrespectful, belittling or confrontational.

    If you think this is the case though, I will refrain from commenting on anything further that you post. It is not my desire to become a stumbling block to you. I am so sorry you feel that everyone has ganged up on you.

    God Bless

  122. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… loved your little story. I came away with this problem though, the man on the shore must have had faith in his abliity to save the other, perhaps he was tested before and found victory in using his arms to help others before. that event happened.
    While were are telling stories, here’s one you might find equally entertaining, and with underlying currents as well.
    There was a capsize at sea, and those who could flail about using their arms and legs were staying afloat as the ship sank.
    A peice of driftwood came by and some grabbed it and were saved, but this one man said, You go I’m waiting on the Lord he won”t let me drown.
    Then a rescue boat appeared and all the others went aboard, but this man said, My Lord will save me, but you go ahead!
    He eventually like your story also tells, did run out of his own strength, but he did drown.
    When he got to Heaven he asked the Lord, Why did you let me drown?
    The Lord said, I didn’t, you did that to yourself!
    I sent you a life preserver in a piece of driftwood, and then a rescue boat, but you refused them both, thinking you knew the better way, and had it all settled in your mind.
    Who are you to refuse my help in whatever form I send it? Other than being found judgemental yourself, by further testing me. I was testing you and you failed the test!

    Either one of those other ways could have saved you, and you could have rejoiced in my Helping, but you seem to know better through doing your own judging?
    All the above typos, mis-spellings, and improper grammar are brought to you in my own strength, or lack of it! :( Be Blessed,Gary

  123. oneg2dblu says:

    narrowpathseeker… You are loved. I hope my attaching one of my treaties on, work after salvation, did not come to you as a personal attack. I can not know your work ethic or your heart completely here. I perhaps should not run on in my strength, or in my calling, delivering the hard messages to the family of Christ, while am also talking to you.
    My comments are directed to the “church at large” and not pointed directed at individuals as some may think, buy if the shoe fits?
    Narrow is the road that leads to eternsal life, but wide is the one that leads to destruction. I can not search the word right now for the exact wording but the message is the same.
    Ask, Seek and Knock and it will be opened to you. Any narrowpathseeker I know, is on the rigth path in my book, and His too! :)

  124. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Gary – I appreciate your comments. I get a message of so much passion for God that I long to see in every heart, my own included.

    You wrote: “I am one who desires discipline and effort, through constant seeking, constant relationship building, constant resisting of evil, and a constancy of keeping on, holding on, running the race, and finishing well in the Faith.”

    I desire those things too. The only difference is my viewpoint which is that I am ABLE to do those things through the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, not that I HAVE to do those things on my own.

    Also you wrote: “But, He also provides a Spirit in us, to help us to resist, to run the race, to hold on until the end, and we MUST obey that Spirit, or I feel, we fall victim to serving another spirit instead.”

    You are right, but what happens when we fail? What happens when we get caught up in something and we fall? For so long I felt I MUST. I MUST get it right! And when I didn’t, I was ready to give up, for how could God love such a one as me?

    Matthew 11:28-30 Do we love God because we must? Do we serve God to keep our salvation? Or do we serve Him out of a heart that loves Him? Luke 7:47 I am happy to be the slave of Jesus Christ. I have entrusted my whole soul to Him.

    You wrote: “It says to me, be forever warned, lest you fall away!”

    But we do fall away. We have fallen and we keep falling. It is the Holy Spirit in me who pulls me to get back up, who reassures me that I can reapproach the throne of grace and ask for forgiveness.

    If someone truly believes that once they accept Christ and are saved they are now able to do what they want, i.e. be their own god, they have never understood grace and they haven’t yet taken hold of it. They are still lost and He is still knocking on the door of their heart.

  125. oneg2dblu says:

    Sorry, I’m at Panera with my little screen and do not see that well until after I post. Urgh!

  126. phpatato says:

    Tracey and Gary – There is a devotional that comes to my email inbox written by Ken Weliever, The Preacherman. If I may be permitted, I will included in part what today’s is. It concerns falling/failing.

    …….”Failure. The word just hangs in the air. It has an ominous sound. It hurts. Its stings. It depresses.

    But I’m also reminded that my failures do not have to be fatal. I’m not finished. I’m not done. I can move forward.

    Think, I’m whistling in the dark? Well, I have evidence to prove it!

    I recall a day of utter failure. It was Friday. Almost 2000 years ago. It was a Friday of failure. The betraying Judas failed. The denying Peter failed. The cowardly Pilate failed. The hypocritical Sanhedrin failed. The unbelieving Jews failed. The fleeing disciples failed.

    And it appeared that Jesus failed. It seemed the mission was thwarted. His ministry aborted. The hope of Israel? Dead! The Kingdom of Heaven? Defeated! God’s plan? Failed! Yes, it seemed that way. By all human experience and observation. Until…….Sunday!

    On Sunday everything changed. The hope of Israel? Alive! The Kingdom? Coming soon! God’s plan? Moving forward! What appeared to be divine failure really wasn’t. It was divine purpose. Divine providence. Divine power.

    But what about human failure? Could they possibly move forward? Peter was restored. The disciples were forgiven. And grace and mercy were offered to all who would receive it. Fifty days later many of the same Jews who cried, “Crucify Him,” pled for pardon. The unbelievers became believers. The blood thirsty murderers were cleansed by that blood. Their failure was not fatal. They now moved forward with a focused faith.

    Except for Judas. He chose a different path. Unlike Peter whose failure turned from remorse to repentance. Judas’ failure finished him. Literally. It was final. Fatal.

    What about you? Are you carrying the burden of Friday’s failures? Is your past holding you back? Are you living in regret? Fear? Isolation?

    I know. You feel your failures are worse than others. I’ve seen it. And heard it. Unfaithfulness. Drunkenness. Immorality. Homosexuality. Abortion. Abuse. People who’ve given up on themselves. Quit. Surrendered. Said, “it’s too late.”

    Listen! It’s never too late. Just because you’ve failed, doesn’t mean you have to be a failure. James Long puT it this way, “One reason God created time was so that there would be a place to bury the failures of the past.” God hasn’t give up on us. Forgiveness is freely offered! His grace is great. And His mercy is magnificent! His love unconditional! And His blood’s a cleansing stream!

    You can clear you conscience. Ease your mind. Heal your heart. You can find peace. And pardon. And purpose. You can come back. And begin again. And move forward. Just bring your failures to the cross.

    Yes, it may be Friday. But Sunday’s coming!”

    –Ken Weliever, The Preacherman

  127. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Thanks Pat for sharing that devotional.
    I have a friend in hospital at the moment who is having a brain op after a motor cycle accident he is also an alcoholic and his life is a mess after the suicide of his partner 10 years ago and his current relationship breakdown. He has also dealt in drugs and responsible for the death of young kids in Indonesia.
    He was trained as a preacher & went to Bible college as a teenager and went astray after he was given nearly a million pounds.
    I am looking after his Bernese (Alpine) Mountain Dog as I type.
    You know the old saying, “when you hear something that you think would do someone else some good it really applies to yourself”, but in this case I am thinking he needs to read this and I will save it for him.
    His operation was today in a hospital about 80 miles from me so we are only communicating by text, a bit like here.
    Please pray for him, his name is Tom.

    Looking at the posts above, we all seem to be hurting on here and need Jesus’s help in every area of lives.

    Love to you all.

    Bob xxx

  128. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pat, for what it is worth, I can not see in any way whatsoever that you were doing anything but trying to be a peacemaker and you are right…God knows your heart, so I would not waste one second feeling bad about trying to do good.

    Pooh, I am sorry that you have had so much trouble in your life. However, you’ve clearly stated that you don’t let those circumstances control you. Yet, you seem to lash out at those apologizing to you, when I see nothing they have done to apologize for. I will not gather up all the evidence in posts that show me that SOMETHING has been bothering you. You are an intelligent woman and can go back and see for yourself what I see. Perhaps it is a medical issue and you have no control over it. I hope you consider that possibility. I will be praying for you.

  129. poohpity says:

    Pat, I said I did not read that in what you wrote period. I on the other hand do not know what was in your heart and never implied in anyway that I did. There was no hidden messages or accusations. Now you understand why I do not go into explaining anything.

    Bob, that is my favorite type of dog, they remind me of my pooh girl. I will be praying for Tom along with you.

    narrow, lol, you are such a hoot and assume a lot don’t you? Gather all you want you have been wrong in the past and there seems to be no difference now.

  130. His Sparrow says:

    Narrowpathseeker: I will continue in prayer for you; and also the other requests that have passed through these days.

    Poohpity: I’ve many times performed the drowning (wo)man, thinking I would somehow do things in my own power along with wrong definitions about myself.

    The last few years, I finally started to fear for my life. I remember you telling me one tough time you went through with your kids. Mine are grown, but I did end up living outta my van, on a porch and a few safehouses rather than go back to “him.” Your encouragement was what I needed to hear-from someone I could trust, because you live according to His grace.

    If the Lord hadn’t used you to help me see His love, and you hadn’t been willing to tell me, I’d still be married to a horrific “christian man,” or dead by now.

    –not by power, not by might, but by My Spirit, says the Lord–

    –and I read my Bible almost every day-King Jameseez

    As the leaves of my life fall, and I begin the process of becoming reverting to a child again, dependent and just old; I find the aging process causes me to draw nearer to God and His written word only, and farther from the things of the world.

    I love you all,

    His Sparrow

  131. poohpity says:

    His Sparrow, If you could see me after reading your comment and how it has touched me and brought tears to my eyes because you know my heart. Thank you so very, very much for the encouragement and love. May God’s love and grace continue to bless your life as you remain in Him. Love Deb

  132. phpatato says:

    Bob

    I will keep Tom in my prayers, praying also for a full and speedy recovery.

    He’s got a nice dog! They are beautiful animals.

    Heavy rain here today with a high of 14c. Leaves are dropping so the landscape is starting to look bleak.

  133. phpatato says:

    Mart, please if you have time to change the topic. I’m sorry to be part of it…..the playground is full and I mean FULL of misunderstandings. Attempts to clear them up are not working even though they are filled with love in trying.

    Have a blessed evening everyone. I will wait for a new topic to be posted because this one has veered way off course. In the words of Kenny Rogers’ song…it’s time to know when to fold ’em; Know when to walk.