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Comfortable in Our Own Skin?

A television commercial series for Dove Soap for Men promotes its product by showcasing well-known athletes talking about their life with a sense of satisfaction. Each ends their ad saying, “My name is i.e. Magic Johnson and I’m definitely comfortable in my own skin.”

The effectiveness of the commercial seems to depend on whether enough viewers will admire the self-confidence of these athletes, subconsciously link that self-assurance with Dove soap, and buy the product.

So am wondering. May sound like a stretch. But what if we applied the idea of being comfortable in our own skin to the Body of Christ?

As members of his Body, do we find ourselves less patient with ourselves and one another because we are trying to live by high standards that regularly reveal our failures? Does knowing the nature of our self-centered flesh cause us not only to put no confidence in ourselves but also make us suspicious of one another? Are we comfortable only in saying ideas for which we can give chapter and verse?  Or are we willing to take risks because we realize we’ve been forgiven and are therefore inclined to cut slack to one another?

These are honest questions… and important… because I suspect that it might be possible to come to wrong conclusions in both directions. I think this is a subject worth talking about in light of what the Apostle Paul said about the liberty that we have found in Jesus Christ– which is for enabling us to experience the fruit of the Spirit… rather than to indulge the flesh (Gal 5).

Note: By the way, I am presently in Curitiba, Brazil spending time with our Brazilian team, area churches and leaders. Would appreciate your prayers that the Lord would give me desperately needed wisdom and clarity in what I say in meetings and relationships. We are also beginning to tape conversations with international Christians for possible radio use.

 

 

 


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211 Responses to “Comfortable in Our Own Skin?”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    I read a short story long ago, I believe it was written by Isaac Asimov, but I could be in err. Anyway the premise of the story was that time was money.

    People in this science fictional time and place when born were inserted with a death chip in their brains and given a certain amount of time to live.

    This *chip* was directly in communication with the *bank* and as life went on any time they bought or donated time it was taken away from their basic account. Now they could also make more time by earning it selling things or investing just like we do with money now, but in this story it was time that had value not money.

    Of course when your account ran out of *time* the chip would activate and kill the person in whom it was planted.

    It is one of those little stories that stuck with me all these years, as I too see that the most valuable asset we have is time and how we spend it is either seen as constructive and productive or frivolously and foolishly wasting it away.

    Jesus said he gives each of us an amount of spiritual *wealth* we can either bury it away for save keeping or invest it in doing good for others and increase its worth. The choice is ours what we do with our time and with our gifts.

    Self always squanders that spiritual wealth for what good is it to have it if not shared and given to others for their benefit, increasing its value rather than just sitting on it.

    I am certain that many times I fail, but here in this *arena* I always try to share my valuable time wisely and not waste it on self, when I share self issues it is for the encouragement of others or the benefit of others not for my posturing.

    As the leaves here are almost gone and winter approaches I pray all of you are blessed today.

    Steve

  2. SFDBWV says:

    I had originally written my above post as a conclusion to the last topic and when I went to post it up came Mart’s new topic.

    However I thought I would post anyway as it was one of those times I felt led to do so.

    Mart we will be praying for your success in Brazil.

    Steve

  3. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    I am inching my way through the Acts of the Apostles (yes, again) – and have paused at the story of Stephen. We call him the first martyr of the church – for he gave his life for what he said and lived in front the religious police of the day. It has not come to self-giving at Stephen’s level in the body of Christ in the West. But, there are Christians going to jail and being executed like Jesus’ apostles in 1st century Jerusalem, in the nations today that hate any religion that is not the sanctioned one (chiefly Muslim and Hindu).

    I am asking myself whether I would have the courage to stand up for my faith and my church if the pressure were much greater than simply being labeled an ignorant bigot who cannot think for myself. Do I live out my faith in Jesus by putting in with my church family and trusting that the Holy Spirit leads us all?

    Mart, you asked:
    “Are we comfortable only in saying ideas for which we can give chapter and text? Or are we willing to take risks because we realize we’ve been forgiven and are therefore inclined to cut slack to one another?”

    My thinking, as I consider the days in which the character of the church was formed, is that even those of us who claim to have put our all on the altar wind up chiding and trying to correct other Christians rather than working with the church to make disciples for Jesus. Can we not leave our whole life on the altar at the church we serve? Do we not trust one another to be there for this ministry?

    Looking at the map of the Roman Empire in the 1st c. AD, I am deeply impressed by how much those few apostles accomplished in their lifetimes! I pray to see even a fraction of that witness in my own life.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  4. remarutho says:

    Prayers going up over here, Mart, for the ministry team in Brazil! Maru

  5. Bill says:

    Olá Mart e os meus amigos!

    Praying for wisdom and God’s blessing on your efforts in Brazil.

    Thank you for this post. It’s another provocative one that ought to result in delightful discussions. :)

    You wrote:

    1. “As members of his Body, do we find ourselves less patient with ourselves and one another because we are trying to live by high standards that regularly reveal our failures?”

    As the old saying goes, adversity can either make one better…or bitter. I think the answer to that question depends on the person. I’ve been through a lot. In fact, sometimes, I feel like I’m one of the toys on the Island of Misfit Toys popularized in the Rudolph Christmas special.

    But my trials and tribulations did not make me bitter. My wife says she’s always amazed by the tenderness of my heart.

    I’ve spent time with people from all walks of life, all religions, genders (including gays), ages, races…you name it. As a result, I have a perspective on suffering, and compassion, that enables me to lower my standards — for myself and others — because I see that people have been beaten down enough, by their own hand, circumstances, or others. They do not need more guilt, sadness, anger, or feelings of worthlessness heaped up on them.

    They need to be loved.

    So I try to meet them where they are, imposing no expectations or preconceived standards. Then let each encounter unfold as it will.

    2. “Does knowing the nature of our flesh keep reminding us that because we can put no confidence in our own flesh and therefore suspicious of one another?”

    I both know the heights — and the depths — to which people are capable. I am realistic, yet optimistic.

    Over the years, I’ve developed a very accurate B.S. detector. I can “read” people quickly within a few moments. More often than not, my assessment is correct. Sometimes, I’m pleasantly surprised. But in no instance am I suspicious of others. Even when I believe someone else may have a hidden agenda and/or is trying to achieve something by manipulating others (or me), I am not suspicious. I am merely aware. But that does not mean I treat the other person with any less than 100% love and compassion. Whatever the cause of another person’s agenda, he/she is still a fellow human being, created in God’s image, and worthy of my love and compassion.

    3. “Are we comfortable only in saying ideas for which we can give chapter and text? Or are we willing to take risks because we realize we’ve been forgiven and are therefore inclined to cut slack to one another?”

    That’s a pair of questions that, I believe, are essential for Christians to discuss.

    I think many Christians feel the need to prove what they’re saying through the use of scriptures — chapter and verse. Rather than simply take in the verses (or sermons or books written by respected authors) and allow their collective wisdom and the Holy Spirit to *embody* their opinions, and their understanding of the Bible, and their actions, I believe Christians constantly seek proof texts to add credence to their claims of this or that.

    In philosophy, that might be called stating a propositional truth — tantamount to drawing a line in the sand. *This* is what I believe.

    Unfortunately, then others come along with their own verses — their own propositional truths — and counter the argument.

    For example, I recently had this experience on Facebook with a well-known Christian musician who is now a pastor of the old-school variety. He likes to post absolutes on Facebook that go something like this: “If Christians are not [fill in the blank] they’re out of God’s will.” Or “Mother Teresa is in hell” or “If you don’t believe [fill in the blank] you’re out of God’s will.”

    There is no possible way this person can make any of those claims. He doesn’t know who’s out of God’s will or not. And, unless he’s peeked into hell, he doesn’t know who’s there.

    But he likes to make absolute statements of fact, based on his understanding of the scriptures. On more than one occasion, I’ve engaged him in debate. He’ll cite a verse to “prove” his absolutist opinion. I’ll look at the verse, copy and paste it into my reply on Facebook, and tell him, “The verse you cited doesn’t apply.” He’ll throw out more verses. I’ll look at them, copy and paste them for all to see, and say, “Sorry. They don’t say what you’re telling us they say.”

    Others will chime in, agreeing with me — or agreeing with him.

    In the end, what do you have? You have factions. You have one group claiming the musician/pastor’s verses are bogus. You have another group who think the musician/pastor can do no wrong and anyone who disagrees with him is obviously out of the will of God. Then you have others who see wisdom in both sides. And others who are merely confused that Christians are debating in this manner.

    Arguments, disagreements, divisions — all will occur over the meaning of verses in the Bible. It can get ugly.

    And it’s all because of what Mart called being comfortable voicing opinions without having to back them up with chapter and verse.

    As some have noted, I don’t quote a lot of verses. That’s because:

    A. I know that not everyone agrees on the meaning of all verses. I do believe that the Bible speaks to us individually. We all get the general idea of what it’s saying. We know the grand sweep and scope of the story. We can pretty much agree on most of it. But not all of it. Sometimes not even the same passages or verses of it.

    At those times it’s best to keep in mind that we’re not God. We will *never* know what each verse of the Bible truly means. We won’t truly know what any of this means until we are face to face with God the Father and we have the opportunity to ask him. Until then, we may be just as right — or just as wrong — about everything we think we know. That’s why I am humbled to the point of not trying to prove everything I do. In all likelihood, I can’t — not in the typical Christian way of whipping out my verse daggers to defend myself. Over the years, I’ve learned that if people are convinced that what you do/say/think is wrong, no amount of verses will prove otherwise. It’s best to just part ways with respect and love than to constantly butt heads in animosity.

    B. I *am* comfortable in my own skin. I don’t need to prove anything to anyone. I don’t believe I am called to do that. I believe I am called to *be* Jesus’ arms and eyes and hands and feet here on earth. I am not called to *prove* anything — to Christians or non-Christians alike. If anything, I believe I am called to be a bridge builder, a unifier, between people. And I can’t do that if I am shouting propositional truths, drawing lines in the sand, creating us-and-them standoffs.

    People will know me by my actions, not by how many verses I can quote to prove a point I wish to make.

    So, yes, I am comfortable because I’m fully aware of how fragile this skin truly is. In the grand scheme, I am no more important than anyone else, and far less important than some. So I know that all I can do is all I can do.

    And do it with love.

  6. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… Prayers for your mission to be accomplished, your words both direct and directed, your provisions, promises, and protection, to all come from the One who sends you! To that very God, the One God which we can attribute to many names, belong all the Glory!

  7. oneg2dblu says:

    On the topic…. For me, it is more than being comfortable in the skin that covers my earthly tent.
    But really in the lasting image that the tent reveals, and the fruit it produces when the will it seeks even in its fleshly being, is that of its Maker,Creator,and Savoiur. It is in the first breath of God given, the only Son of God given, and in Him do we have or being whose flesh when pressed, is then pressed among the pages of the Book of Life, revealing our newly created image, and the eternity it bears. Gary

  8. pjeanne says:

    Bill, I agree with you 100%! I wish that I could express myself and my beliefs as you have done.
    Mart, prayers for you and your team and prayers for your safe return home. I love all the work that RBC Ministries does, and love your blog. I really enjoy reading the comments, as well.
    Again, thanks Bill for your comments….

  9. Rocky says:

    Mart,

    Thank you for wording such a difficult topic in such a non offensive way.

    I face this daily, I have to die daily and ask God to forgive my frustration. Let my thoughts glorify Him and edify others.

    The Apostle Paul taught don’t just read what the word says, but do what the word says, if I sit around pointing out the speck in peoples eyes, when will I ever have time to remove the plank in my own eye?

    Judging people can be more time consuming than social media.

    God bless you Mart & friends

  10. remarutho says:

    Mart & Friends –

    Gary, you remind me of the way Paul (a tent maker himself) talks about the skin we walk around in here in the world as we know it. There is a certain “holy discontent” with the ways of the world, our temporary home. As for me, I long to see through the institution the body of Christ has become in some ways. I pray we all may discern the body of Christ as it is in truth!

    Eugene Peterson’s translation of 2 Corinthians 5 speaks of being content with this sojourn inside this skin that will open up to being more fully alive in the resurrection:
    “For instance, we know that when these bodies of ours are taken down like tents and folded away, they will be replaced by resurrection bodies in heaven—God-made, not handmade—and we’ll never have to relocate our “tents” again. Sometimes we can hardly wait to move—and so we cry out in frustration.

    Compared to what’s coming, living conditions around here seem like a stopover in an unfurnished shack, and we’re tired of it! We’ve been given a glimpse of the real thing, our true home, our resurrection bodies! The Spirit of God whets our appetite by giving us a taste of what’s ahead. He puts a little of heaven in our hearts so that we’ll never settle for less. That’s why we live with such good cheer. You won’t see us drooping our heads or dragging our feet! Cramped conditions here don’t get us down. They only remind us of the spacious living conditions ahead. It’s what we trust in but don’t yet see that keeps us going.”

    Yours,
    Maru

  11. poohpity says:

    To me it seems sad when one hides who they truly are because they think if people really knew the secrets of what is going on they would be rejected or be thought less of. When in reality honesty and transparency allows for grace and commonality. Things one keeps hidden are shamed based when they finally come out it is very freeing to find they are accepted in spite of. Then we have the ability to cut others some slack when we see our own faults and we all have them, some are more out in the open and some people keep them hidden but they are still there.

    No matter what there will always be some who like us and some who don’t but being real seems to prevent pride from creeping in and a false sense of being better or worse than others. There will always be a risk of rejection but better to be rejected for being real than getting people to like you for someone you are not.

  12. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Mart – I am praying for your work in Brazil. Your request for prayers made me think of 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 and I pray that for you. Thanks for taking time out of your schedule to start a new topic that gives us much to think on.

    Maru – your comment is so true. We can be comfortable here in these tents only because we know they are temporary and God has something much better prepared for us that we cannot even begin to imagine, although we do get glimpses.

    When I read what I just wrote it makes it sound like I think life is terrible, but that’s not what I think. God has given has good things in this life, it is just that the best is yet to come.

  13. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Pooh – I agree that we do accept each other when we are open and honest. It is comforting to know that God knows each of us, no matter what we are able to reveal to those around us. It can be so hard to let others see that we don’t have it all together.

    Sometimes, we may feel we are being open and honest and don’t get the acceptance and understanding we were looking for. It makes it hard to open up again. We must individually seek God’s approval and not the approval of man.

    God meets each of us where we are. And we are all in different places.

  14. poohpity says:

    I agree tracey! It seems sometime we can take things against us as a person when they were never meant to be. I guess I do not expect anyone to have it all together because I don’t and find more in common with those who admit that than those who act like they do. That is where I mess up so much thinking I need to be the one who points that out regarding those who act like they do and that is not my job and I am so wrong in that.

  15. Bill says:

    Lots of wonderful comments already!

    @pooh, I agree with what you wrote:

    “To me it seems sad when one hides who they truly are because they think if people really knew the secrets of what is going on they would be rejected or be thought less of.”

    That’s very true. However, I’m sure all of us can recall times when we were transparent, revealing “secrets” that others rejected us, or recoiled, or stopped being friends, etc. One can never know how those on the receiving end will react. That’s why all we can do as you suggest — be ourselves, warts and all. We are not responsible for how others act or react. We can only be true to ourselves.

    @tracey5, well put: “God meets each of us where we are. And we are all in different places.”

    I often wonder how superb teachers/communicators like Mart do it. He has to know the diversity of all of us reading his posts. Some are new Christians. Others have been at it for decades. Some aren’t Christians at all. So there’s no way to know how these threads will go. All he can do is trust that God will meet each of us.

    @maru and Gary, I really like the “tent” analogy. Very vivid.

    @Rocky, this made me laugh out loud: “Judging people can be more time consuming than social media.” So true!

    That’s why some people just save time and do both at once. :)

    @pjeanne, thank you!

    @Steve, always a pleasure to read your posts.

    As my wife and I sat at breakfast this morning, I thought of a way to help illustrate something I wrote earlier. Please bear with me.

    One of my passions is music. My favorite genres are progressive rock (Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, Kansas, Rush, et al) and Classical (Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Haydn, etc.). But I also enjoy a bit of Jazz now and then (Brubeck, Davis, Coltrane, etc.).

    There’s one thing I’ve notice about musicians. The very best of them take what was done before, build on it, and create something wholly new.

    For example, progressive rock created today is called neo-prog. That’s because that style of music emerged in the late 1960s and exhausted itself by, say, 1975. So a band like England’s Marillion is considered neo-prog because they emerged in the early 1980s – long after true progressive rock had disappeared. All bands today that play that style of music are considered neo-prog because the original has long since been done. They’re just mirroring what came before.

    Jazz is different. Jazz, done right, is new every time. There’s no such thing as neo-Jazz. That’s because jazz (especially played live) is never the same: the musicians improvise, create something that didn’t exist prior to the moment they took the stage.

    Actors do this, too, when they go off-script.

    Ditto for experts in Classical music. From time to time, someone will discover a partial manuscript from, say, Mozart and they will try to re-created a larger piece of music based on the fragment, to see what the maestro may have had in mind. This takes guts. And an intimate knowledge of Mozart’s previous works.

    In many ways, I think Christians are afraid to improvise. They’re afraid to stray from the notes on the page, or from the script by the master Playwright.

    So they make their speech, their writings, and their behavior look and sound the way Paul’s did. Or Mark’s. Or John’s. Or Jesus’. And they look askance at those who do not follow the same patterns.

    In the beginning, it’s probably wise to stick close to the script, to the notes written by the Master. But I think to create really beautiful music (or give a truly remarkable performance) that touches the lives of others we have to be comfortable enough to venture into uncharted territory — to, in effect, create a fifth act based on the first four. To improvise like a jazz musician. To flesh out a symphony based on the fragment of music left behind.

    When Mart posted his blog today, I thought of my analogies of music and acting, straying from notes or page. But I forgot it when I posted earlier.

    I realize my analogy has holes and isn’t perfect. But it helps me remember that I believe we are to be like jazz musicians, improvising our own style of music in the world — all based on the original music created by the greatest Musician of all.

  16. narrowpathseeker says:

    I think most of the time that I am not comfortable in my own skin because I am painfully aware of my many shortcomings and the countless wrongs I’ve committed from childhood. I know I have been forgiven, but I have not forgotten them. I can’t remember if I just had a second cup of coffee or if it was my first, but I can remember saying something cruel to someone 50-60 years ago or more. Am I suspicious of others because of that awareness? I think I am “suspicious” of some people, but is it “suspicion” when you catch the boy down the road with your son’s stolen bike, but he denies stealing it? Is it being kind to that boy to say, “ok, as long as you deny it, keep it…stealing is ok..and you have a great talent for denial…it will take you far”?

    Being more concerned with what God thinks of us than our fellow man is a good thing, but if I treat my fellowman in a demeaning way just because I don’t care what they think of me, then I think I better think a lot harder about what God thinks of the way I treated my fellowman.

  17. SFDBWV says:

    Able to take a breather and read over the comments and Marts *opener* again and working my way down through it.

    In Mart’s opening thoughts he speaks of athletes who are “comfortable” in their own skin.

    Giving this some thought, I am thinking that most people I know are not satisfied at all with their bodies. In fact most I know don’t like to see themselves in pictures and are usually overly critical of themselves.

    That would be quite a bar of soap to give people a confident pride at being in their *skin*.

    Applying that to being in the body of Christ opens up the full gamut of human personalities and possibilities.

    Once again most people I know want to be more than they are and it is when they try to be more than they have been anointed to be is when they get into trouble.

    Each person in the body of Christ is given a gift, some more than one, but each gift is *given* not *taken* from God. In God’s infinite wisdom each of us are empowered to be used in the body, not for our purposes, but for His.

    If we can learn to accept where we are and not be over reaching, we can find peace and contentment succeeding for Christ in whatever capacity He has placed us.

    In that special place God has planted us, is where we can bear fruit. There we can be “comfortable” in our place in the Body of Christ as we await the new body God has in store for us in the Kingdom.

    Once again there is a thin line between wanting to be more for Christ and being envious of where others are.

    It seems to me if we spend more *time* working on where we are with Christ and less time worrying where others are, we can save ourselves a lot of grief.

    We have had two funerals and two burials this week. Life has taught me that no one is replaceable and once gone everyone is missed.

    Steve

  18. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… I agree we are all neo-biblical, neo-Christ followers who like to jazz things up. Using our opinions, or improvision of the sheet music God has provided for us, but now we must stretch and play or move beyond the boundries with our own version. Like expanding the tent pegs to cover more of His ground, but not so far that it pulls the tent down, or rips it beyond repair. :0
    Here’s my confession for the day… although there are added words or imprivision, it may not go along with the steady beat you now enjoy for yourself. Gary

  19. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Bill, you never cease to amaze me. You are a very wise man.
    This summer I have been given the opportunity and privilege to help a friend in deep S***
    I struggled for two months when I found him walking the streets after sleeping rough in the cemetery. He stayed with me while trying to give up drink and hiding from everyone.
    I felt a complete failure as he still drinks and still does not fully know Jesus.
    But last week he came to me with his dog and asked me to look after it while he has his brain surgery.
    I just said yes to dog siting even though I don’t much care for them & this one is a big dog.
    I think what you have been saying for quite awhile here is “all we need is love”.
    Forget the script and play to the audience just like Paul said “be all things to all men”.
    I used to worry so much and try to learn the words for someone to pray when they except Jesus, but there are no set words, everyone’s experience of excepting Jesus is different and unique to them, there is no script for that.
    I am so pleased my friend trusted me with his dog and I was so surprised I said yes without hesitation.
    There is no need to preach, no need to quote scripture, no need to judge, just a need to love without question and leave the rest to God.

    Bob

  20. oneg2dblu says:

    Jazz thrives well with those who can tolerate its syncopated beat! :)
    Living outside the guidelines provided by God assumes he likes our jazz as well!
    But, that is just my opinion, I’m soory like like guardrails provided for the security they provide for those who drive with their eyes open…
    Not hitting on you Bill, just making music, the kind I understand. Be Blessed!

  21. oneg2dblu says:

    Just venting…I prefere not to know everyone’s sins here in detail, heaven forbid. I just trust that we all have them, kind of like parents. Besides, only God has enough room for all that stuff. On the other hand, some rather find the missing beats more pleasurable, then asking the musician to explain why he left them out. Seeking for them in detail where they better fit their music.
    If you don’t like the jazz you’re hearing, then stop complaining and just turn it off!
    My pastor says, “If you have a gambling problem, stop vacationing in Vegas!” I like that tune because it echos of resposibility. Now there’s a beat some can never enjoy… :)

  22. Bill says:

    @Bob, thank you.

    Your post was profound. Especially the last paragraph:

    “There is no need to preach, no need to quote scripture, no need to judge, just a need to love without question and leave the rest to God.”

    I study different religions, and have many friends in other religions. One of them, Zen, is about not having words to address situations. In fact, the answer to most Zen koans is a silent acting out (like a mime) of the answer.

    One application of Zen goes something like this: What do you say to a friend who lost is wife to cancer, his house to fire, and his vehicle to a car jacker and is now sitting on the curb crying?

    Answer: Nothing. You simply sit beside him, put your arm around him, and cry with him. No words needed. Yet, you’ve said more than an encyclopedia.

    In addition, Zen teaches that one should do what each moment dictates. The example you provided – saying yes to dog sitting – was what that particular moment dictated.

    What I’m saying is that you were very much in the moment – and in the Spirit – in your examples. You did what was appropriate, no more no less. That takes real skill.

    @Gary, I’m not a big fan of jazz, either. I just understand its mechanics. I prefer more melody and less busy-ness. I just thought the notion of improvising fit well with jazz.

    Here’s the really cool thing about life in the Spirit, without a net: it’s okay to like guardrails, too. And hate jazz. And want to quote scripture all the time.

    If God wanted us to be the same, he wouldn’t have made us different.

    So I’m not trying to make my opinions a kind of standard, a must-do for all Christians. They’re just my opinions, no more and no less.

    Everybody here is free to disagree with me. I could be wrong.

    @Steve, there’s a difference between being comfortable in my own skin and being comfortable with my body. I could stand to lose 20-30 pounds. I’m not necessarily comfortable with my appearance. But I’m comfortable with who I am inside. I know my strengths and, more importantly, I know my weaknesses.

    I also know I have a lot of work to do. :)

  23. His Sparrow says:

    I am new wine in a The new Wineskin, my Lord Jesus Christ.

    I am a part of the body of Christ and I make Him alive to others.

    My friend helped me understand that today.

    Mart I know that the Lord will work things through you all
    to make Him alive
    to those you have traveled far to serve.

    p.s. a bit warmer there too!

    Love
    His Sparrow

  24. kingdomkid7 says:

    Interesting topics lately. I’ve been swamped at work and only privileged to read and run. Bob, I think your kindness to your friend is amazingly sweet. And Bill, your music riff is intriguing to me. Don’t like jazz much, but I see your point. I do wonder though about the Zen stuff. We have scripture that would send you to the same result, so why adopt the Zen idea? For me, that bumps up against Jesus telling us He is the way, the truth and the life. Maybe I’m just overly-sensitive to suggestions that our answers to any questions in life need to be found elsewhere. (Growing up with Islamist bullying going on in the house no doubt helped put me in this sensitive place!) But for me, it’s all about Jesus and the Bible.

  25. Bill says:

    @kingdomkid, I’m not advocating Zen. What I tried to point out is that what Bob did has parallels with another tradition. My point is that sometimes we can learn from others.

    Remember, Zen doesn’t address the ultimate questions. It’s not concerned with God because it cannot answer the question, “Does God exist?”

    But all of us here have already asked, and answered, that question.

    So my reference was to the silent actions, not to the ideology. I apologize if that was confusing. Ignore the Zen part. But consider the notion that we don’t always have to help others with words. Sometimes silence is more effective.

  26. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Just received this text from my friend in Hospital timed at 23:35 now midnight here, just thought I would share it with you all.
    Thanks for your prayers for Tom…..

    “Hows my dog rob.they took my eye out and went that way .face is swollen .black eyes or what .miss u and my dog .gettin moved morrow .didnt understand were 2.private i think .stepmum mite had heard ? take care my pal .will phone u when i can .nurse zoe wrote this x”

  27. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thanks, Bill. I really didn’t understand. Now I do!

  28. poohpity says:

    Ooooh Bob, thanks so much for the update. Sounds pretty rough but he is coherent.

  29. His Sparrow says:

    Hey Bob!

    One day at a time, for sure, in love.
    When you see your friend, please deliver a kiss and hug from the Sparrow.

    Love
    His Sparrow

  30. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Hope all is well with youday! I had a restful and productive day today. Had choir rehearsal at my church today (it was awesome), and I love spending quality time with my church family/fellow choir members.

    Mart, I pray that our Lord Jesus will indeed give you divine wisdom and clarity of thought in what you say in meetings and relationships. I pray that you will glorify His name in all that you say in do. Amen! I also hope that you will enjoy your time and ministry opportuniy in Brazil.

    Love to all…

  31. Regina says:

    *you! :)

  32. SFDBWV says:

    Reading on down through Mart’s topic I am once again taken by the fact of how freeing truth and honesty is.

    We can only be comfortable being who we are when we come to terms with who we are.

    I have a framed list of who we are in Christ which when read details who we become when we realize what it is that Jesus brings to the table for us.

    Romans 8:16- Children of God
    Ephesians 2; 8- Saved by grace through faith
    Psalms 107: 2- Redeemed from the hand of the enemy
    1 John 5: 11, 12- Eternal life
    Ephesians 1: 7- Forgiveness
    Romans 8: 14- Led by the Spirit of God
    2 Corinthians 5: 17- A new creature
    Galatians 3; 13- Redeemed from the curse of the law
    Isaiah 46: 4- Kept in safety wherever I go
    Ephesians 6: 10- Strong in the Lord and His mighty power
    2 Corinthians 5; 7- Living by faith and not by sight
    Colossians 1: 13- Rescued from the power of darkness
    Romans 5: 1- Justified
    Romans 8; 17- An heir of God and joint heir with Christ
    Ephesians 1: 3- Blessed with every Spiritual blessing
    Revelation 12: 11- An overcomer by the blood of the Lamb
    Matthew 5: 14- The light of the world
    Ephesians 5: 1- Followers of God
    1 Peter 2: 24- Healed by His wounds
    Romans 12: 2- Transformed by the renewing of your mind
    Galatians 3: 14- Heir to the blessings of Abraham
    Philippians 4:13- Doing all things through Christ who strengthens me
    Romans 8: 37- More than a conqueror

    That took a little while so I will continue on in another post.

    Steve

  33. narrowpathseeker says:

    Thank you Steve. Some of your list wouldn’t come up and I was going to look them up. Then I saw that it might be due to the semi colons, so I c & p’d and changed..and hope that works. Most of all I hope I haven’t over stepped with this attemp to correct a simple error. Have a great day Steve and thank you again for these verses.

    Ephesians 2:8 – Saved by grace through faith
    Galatians 3:13 – Redeemed from the curse of the law
    2 Corinthians 5:7 – Living by faith and not by sight
    Romans 8:17 – An heir of God and joint heir with Christ

  34. narrowpathseeker says:

    Bob, I posted to you in the other topic and noticed this morning that it didn’t post. I wrote again this morning and again it didn’t post. I don’t know what is going on with that, but just want you to know that I am praying for your friend and for you. You have taken on quite a handful with the B M dog. You are a good friend…God Bless.
    PS..I am going to save this so I don’t have to keep writing it over if it doesn’t post again.

  35. SFDBWV says:

    Narrowpathseeker, Thank you for helping me out with my typos as is obvious I am distracted a lot and even when not I am apt to make mistakes.

    I just wanted to stop quickly in and thank you as I am preparing Sunday’s dinner and getting the meat ready for cooking later today.

    Smiles, thanks and a hug

    Steve

  36. narrowpathseeker says:

    It’s a beautiful morning…Today is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.

    A morning fresh with new Mercies and Blessings.. I am going to the river to empty myself and to breathe them in. May EACH of you here, absorb all the Mercies and Blessings the Lord has for you today. May each of us be renewed in His Love in Heart and Spirit…May you ALL(y’all for Sparrow:-))have a fabulous day.

  37. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, you are very welcome…have a wonderful Sunday dinner and smiles, hugs, and thanks back to you.

  38. SFDBWV says:

    As I have often stated one of God’s creative laws are that for everything there is an equal and opposite reaction to it. I think it is called the law of motion.

    To me motion requires action so for every action there is an opposite to it.

    Looking down through the list Narrowpathseeker and I provided for you if you insert the opposite to what we are in Christ what you have left is who we were, before cleansed and covered by the blood of the Lamb.

    Our confidence should not be in us, but in Christ who enables us. If we stand alone on our own, our confidence is vulnerable, but when we understand that Christ stands with us our confidence is now in Him. (1 John 5: 14, 15)

    Do we “cut slack to one another?” When we do is it because we consider we are forgiven and so offer forgiveness then to others? Or is it because others need understanding, sometimes pity, and forgiveness because they are a victim of what they are?

    When you cut someone slack, are you ignoring their trespass or ignorance and concerned only with their feelings? Or are you avoiding confrontation and concerned only with your feelings?

    This is one area that almost can’t be accomplished here in the public domain. If in yours or my opinion someone needs correcting, wisdom teaches us to make that a very private encounter so as not to embarrass the other person and so conger up anger.

    Here in this arena it is impossible to take someone aside and gently with love and tenderness confront the other person.

    So here love, diplomacy, wisdom and consideration dictates when and how we relate to one another and if the risk of offending is worth it.

    Steve

  39. His Sparrow says:

    Mercy unto y’all, and peace and love be multiplied this and every day in Christ.

    Paraphrased from Jude 1:2 (KJV)

    Love
    His Sparrow

  40. poohpity says:

    I agree Steve, we are no longer victims to our circumstance for those who are in Christ Jesus. We know that when things happen to us God is in control of the timing and intensity and they have purpose. God seems to design things to fit a specific purpose and turn out good if we respond in faith. They develop Christ-likeness and strengthen our faith while giving us an opportunity to persevere under pressure. We can gauge our spiritual maturity by how we respond knowing that God is walking with us through the trials giving us His grace to overcome and is helping to design us for future use.

  41. poohpity says:

    Bill, I often wonder if the Zen philosophy from the 6th century did not get it’s basis from the teaching of the 1st century of James where he says, “Listen much and speak little” when dealing with people, or from Jesus who spoke of “mourning with those who mourn”. It is so neat to see things from the Bible written centuries before come around in different cultures adopting them as their own and adding a few to boot.

  42. oneg2dblu says:

    tracey5gbtg… thank you.
    I believe you hit the golden vein, in your 10-20, 11:46 post.

    “We must individually seek God’s approval and not the approval of man.”

    When we walk around with the face of fasting, or a woe is me attitude looking for a timely response, then what we receive is the approval of man, and that is all the reward we will ever get, according to the word of God.

    Unless you are asking for specific prayers however, then it is probably within godly guidelines and appropriate.

    But, if the one hand does not let the other know what it does, then what is hidden on earth is seen only by God as we store up treasure in heaven, and then we get our due reward in due time, according to the word of God.

    I wish I could take the time to recite all the verses that back this up, as others always do, but you already know where they are, they are hidden in the hearts of those who do not seek man’s approval, but only God’s.

    Perhaps, we are all guilty at times, possibly we are all guilty, and absolutely we are all guilty.

    Unfortunately, last night I also spent time making that very point, but now I see through looking back over the past posts, you have already made it for me, and my post need not be revealed.

    In my humbled opinion,
    Social media serves itself well, and I believe it can take away the heavenly treasures that one could have had, if we had only held our tongues and foregone the ever seeking of man’s timely approval.

    If we battle only the ideals of man and his thinking, and don’t bring into the conversation God’s light, which is what Mart does, then who do we serve?

    But, I may be wrong, so I’m off to fill the bird bath again, where my only reward is to see them enjoying it, unless of course my witness is seen for what it is.

    How wretched, filthy, selfish, unsocial, pride-filled and introverted a man can be, always found accusing others, but by which standard, by others?

    Not by God however, for I have a Saviour, and He allows me through even using social media to boldly share what others do not want to hear, in is clearly written word.

    All the Glory, Honor, and Praise to Him who empowers me are what I desire, and nothing else, unless of course, He also allows me to see the fruit of His work.

    What I seem to provoke in some others here however, is what they see only in themselves, as the ever gilded mirror of guilt is never a fond reflecting endeavor, and only if it changes one from the inside, does its reflection becomes quite clear.

    To me, there is only one narrow path to change…
    “One must repent to be changed!”

    If my delivery of words seems offensive to you, as if any mention of repentance is a four letter word that seems to cancel out your embrace of grace, then please leave mine out, and only hear His.

    Have a Blessed Day, Gary

  43. poohpity says:

    Gary you said which I agree, “When we walk around with the face of fasting, or a woe is me attitude looking for a timely response, then what we receive is the approval of man, and that is all the reward we will ever get, according to the word of God.” does that also apply to those who boast about how spirit-filled they are?

  44. poohpity says:

    When you take credit for things like, “What I seem to provoke in some others here however, is what they see only in themselves, as the ever gilded mirror of guilt is never a fond reflecting endeavor, and only if it changes one from the inside, does its reflection becomes quite clear.” is that not taking credit for something that only God alone can do?

  45. poohpity says:

    Gary, in Christ only, can one find the solution to that guilt by what He did on the Cross. Would you offer yourself as a sacrifice for our sin when we are found guilty by you. Only a person without defect or sin could be that sacrifice that is why it is so important not to take on the job of judge and jury for those found to be guilty because we are all guilty. There was only One who could offer a solution to what we find in our own mirrors. Praise be to God for providing the sacrifice for our guilt, shame and sin to restore us to a right relationship with Him.

  46. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, it took me but a few seconds to copy, paste, delete semi colons, and replace them, whereas I’m sure it took a good part of your morning to type out that list to share with us. Thank you for the time you take to share so much when you have so much on your plate as it is. Your generousity in sharing credit (which is surely not deserved), shows me even more of your kind heart .. :-)

    This may sound a little far out to some, but this morning at the river, I asked the Lord to let me breathe in His Spirit and exhale the facets of self that hinder my spiritual growth. As I inhaled until I could take in no more, I would name the thing I was exhaling(until I could exhale no more) with each cycle of respiration. By the time I had symbolically exhaled false pride, jealousy, gluttony, and slothfulness, I was very light headed in a very relaxed sort of way. Then I remembered that this was a relaxation exercise they use in the medical field. I can’t help wondering if this might be how God intended for us to empty ourselves and that it might be helpful even for those who don’t know what they are doing it for, other than they will feel better.

  47. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… so little time, so much wealth to distrbute!
    As an answer to your 11:35 question: Everyone who boasts, boasts in the Lord if you in Christ. If you are in Christ, then you are filled with the Spirit. If you are in Christ and filled with the Spirit, your reward is both in the present, and the awaiting arrival of Eternity with God.
    So, yes, I am very spirit filled, sometimes even overflowing. Thank God! Gary

  48. friendofjesus says:

    I agree with Poohpitty in that perhaps we often avoid taking risks for fear of what others will think and fear being rejected. Transparency is the buzz word in recent times and I have found it to be a double edged sword. Having taken the risk to be transparent didn’t endear my fellow church members, therefore I resolved to be less transparent in the future. The Word of God seems to encourage us to be transparent that unbelievers and believers alike may see God at work in ourselves by evidence of His light shining through our brokenness. If we cannot be open and honest with each other how else will others be able to see God in us?

  49. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… to answer your 11:43 question: I used one of your favorite recipies, your telling others to go look in the mirror… ouch!
    Even in this Age of Grace we still see dimly. For those who see their guilt when they look in the mirror, even a gilded mirror will show their guilty image, where the image of Chrsit really should be.
    Only the work of God is what changes us from the inside.
    Never the mirror we send others to, or the dimly sought after image of finding others guilty of trying to be God, or boasting in how filled they are, or how prideful, always questioning, calling things off topic,
    throwing up blog guidelines in the faces of others, add infinity…
    Those are the things that are both telling and troubling.
    It may be wishful thinking on my part that guilt eventually finds the guilty, the still small voice still prompts the way, and the guilty will repent,
    while they still have the option, or never be changed.

    Every knee shall bow…

    But for now, we can still repent to the only one true God, through the only way He offers that can really foster any change in us, unless you’ve found another way, we must repent!

    If the shoe does not fit you, then why do you keep trying it on? Gary

  50. narrowpathseeker says:

    Regina, Claudia, and Sparrow. Thank you all for your love and prayers.

  51. poohpity says:

    Gosh Gary, you busted me and called me on all the areas I fail in. Do you still love me anyway? ;-)

  52. poohpity says:

    friendofjesus, oh please do not let others stop you from being real and open. The ones who accept you for just who you are, are the ones who will make really good friends and the others will be missing out.

  53. Bill says:

    @friendofjesus, pooh is correct.

    For each of us to be whole, to be sound of mind and body, we need to be honest — with ourselves and with others. That means transparency. That means, as she put it, being “real and open.”

    So it doesn’t matter how people react to you for who you are. What matters is you stand before God and just be. You are you. You cannot be anyone else. If others don’t like you or respect you or want to be around you, that’s their loss. You can’t control others. But, with God’s help, you can control yourself.

    @pooh, I was in transit most of today (I’m now in Nashville). So I didn’t get a chance to chime in on your post from earlier today, or anyone else’s. And I feel I’ve missed a lot. Many wonderful comments were left, including a tremendously helpful list from Steve and narrow.

    At 11:07am you wrote:

    “Bill, I often wonder if the Zen philosophy from the 6th century did not get it’s basis from the teaching of the 1st century of James where he says, “Listen much and speak little” when dealing with people, or from Jesus who spoke of “mourning with those who mourn”. It is so neat to see things from the Bible written centuries before come around in different cultures adopting them as their own and adding a few to boot.”

    That’s an incredibly insightful comment. And it speaks to the heart of why I study other religions, and have so many friends in other religions. And that reason is this: When I truly understand what others believe — enough to engage them in honest conversation — I will start to see connections, much like the one you made. When someone else sees that I am truly interested in what they’re interested in, when he or she can tell from my words, actions, and tone of voice that I understand them — and even agree with them here and there — they are so much more willing to listen to me. For example, when a Zen practitioner talks about silence as an answer, I can bring up things Jesus said, or passage of the Bible that speak to silent abiding, or reaching out to others in silence, no words.

    This is precisely what the late Stephen R. Covey wrote in his landmark book The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. One of the habits is “Seek first to understand, then to be understood”

    So I go out of my way to understand the Zen Buddhist, the devout Catholic, the Hindu…even those who are pro-abortion, or politically liberal, or who embrace global warming, or even evolution. For me to understand others, I have to become like others. Not literally. But enough to speak to them exactly where they are, using their words, offering their own ideological or philosophical arguments back to them, only with a biblical twist.

    Sometimes, when I’m walking beside others, I discover something I hadn’t known before…such as the elegance of Zen. Or the depth and piety of Catholic mystics. Or the benefits of meditation (much like the Quakers or Mennonites do — a calm abiding in silence).

    Knowing that, I see where other traditions may lack something I have to offer. Or, on some occasions, I see what another tradition has that I may lack — answering in silence, for example. Or embracing others in an interfaith way, much like Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating, David Steindl-Rast, Richard Rohr, Gandhi, and others did. Even MLK and Mother Teresa set aside their own traditions to help others. MLK was a staunch Republican and devout Christian. Yet, he spoke eloquently to people of all faiths and political persuasions. Mother Teresa spent her life caring for the sick, the dying, and the poor.

    I’m not sure that what I’m writing now is on topic. But it does speak to how comfortable I am in my own skin. So much so that I can let others be themselves — whoever they are, whatever they are. So much so that I can study other traditions and the beliefs others have. If I was worried about myself, or lacked confidence in God’s ability to work in our lives, I might not take the time to befriend others, or try to understand their lives…which means I may not become a richer, more well-rounded person in the process.

    What a wonderful topic Mart begin! What uplifting, insightful comments people posted today!

    Thank you all!

  54. His Sparrow says:

    friendofjesus

    I encourage you to be real and open too. If you need the words to say, ask the Lord and He will give them to you. I used to be double-minded (James 4:8) trying to please the world and the Lord…doesn’t last.

    Love
    His Sparrow

  55. narrowpathseeker says:

    Bill….WOW!! After reading your last post I see you about a 1000 miles ahead of me…nearing the finish line with major victories. I will probably never even come close to possessing such qualities, but still you have inspired me to at least try.

    Also, that list was provided by Steve…the only thing I provided was a few colons. :-)

  56. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… of course I still love you, whether you will receive it or not, only you can say, but when offered love in the past the conversation seems to end rather quickly, and silence, which to me reflects unforgiveness, is my only answer.

    I love others here as well, so, I am not going to continue the back and forth that constant unsetteling questions bring, although entertaining for some,
    I am not entertaining to continue taking up anymore time and space here where others can bring so much more.

    For the respect of others here, being open and honest, its time for me to hang up on you, rather than answer you even more, and further feeding this ongoing never settled battle.

    The call to Feed my sheep, is not really happenig here when we are batteling unendlessly. Please, in love for others, let us stop!

    I’m praying that in this, moment of peacemaking, you somehow hear my heartfelt love….
    In His Love,Gary

  57. SFDBWV says:

    Who we are is a collection of many, many others. Of the physical we are our parents, our grand parents, traceable all back through time to all of our ancestors.

    Their DNA is our DNA; we have their color of skin, of eyes, of hair, we are tall and thin or short and fat, our mannerisms and characteristics, theirs.

    We are they, they are us.

    When we enter into the *Body* of Christ we are given a new spirit apart from the old spirit of self, changed, our new spirit seeks to not showcase our selves, but showcase our Savior by lifting Him up for all to see, not us.

    Yesterday, I wrote down a few Scripture verses in order to show us who we now are, I made several typos and Narrowpathseeker corrected them for me.

    You see, that is how it is suppose to be, she didn’t point out my mistakes, she corrected them without criticism and by doing so she aided me in lifting up Christ. This is our purpose, to show Christ, to present Christ, to be an example of Christ to others. We did it together, which is what the body is supposed to do, work together.

    When we do that, we need very little conversation in order to persuade a non believer to desire that strength and peace demonstrated by our behavior.

    I always have to stop and think, whose behavior am I following, mine or His.

    Bob gave us an example of being the Good Samaritan; Jesus used that story as a way of explaining to us proper behavior apart from affiliation or family. A man needed help and without regard to who he was or why he was in the fix he was in, offered help.

    This is who we now are, first responders to a world in need of help.

    Steve

  58. Bill says:

    @Steve, brilliant!!!!!

    What a great post to wake up to.

    I love that metaphor. We are first responders to a world in need of help!

    That’s why I lead with love, open arms, and helping hands whenever I can. Sometimes, I forget and lead with my head (rather than my heart). When I over-think a situation, or assume, I am invariably in the wrong.

    It’s hard to be wrong when one leads with his or her heart.

    You wrote:

    “Who we are is a collection of many, many others. Of the physical we are our parents, our grand parents, traceable all back through time to all of our ancestors.

    Their DNA is our DNA; we have their color of skin, of eyes, of hair, we are tall and thin or short and fat, our mannerisms and characteristics, theirs.

    We are they, they are us.”

    Maybe John Lennon wasn’t so far off when he wrote, “I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.” :)

    By the way, that’s one of the things I picked up from Zen — interconnectedness, that we are all connected, all part of the same humanity. That there is no difference between me and you, me and pooh, pooh and Gary, etc. Not just fellow believers, those “in the Body,” but all humanity. To me, that’s a constant reminder that the entire world is my mission field, all human beings — saved or unsaved. I am here to serve all mankind.

    @Gary, maybe you’re over-thinking the situation. I haven’t seen any unsettling questions or confrontations. You and pooh have a tendency to square off. But I don’t see it this time around. Maybe you should continue to be you, let pooh be pooh, and all of us will read what you two post…and we’ll decide for ourselves whether or not it adds value?

    @narrowpath, as I understand it, the “finish line” is death. I like to think I’m not that old. :)

    I also like to think that all of us strive together, shoulder to shoulder. I am not ahead of anyone else. In fact, if I am not the student of everyone else, I could become haughty, brittle of character, and cold to the needs of those around me.

    We’re on the path — the narrow path — together.

    Have a great day, all!

    Bill

  59. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Gary,
    You are right not to add fuel to comments & questions that appear here from time to time. We are all human and the self in us loves to have the last word.
    Dead men do not argue and when we are dead to self then we cannot react to others taunts.
    As Bill has said, silence is often the best way to help a situation, along with empathy with the one who is hurting.
    I have been amazed of late by the quality of comment and wisdom that has appeared on this blog.
    So much so that I have kept quiet myself as even a fool is thought wise when he keeps his mouth shut.

    Bob

  60. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    Am touched by the prayers being offered one for the other here! I hope to have a report on my friend Chris and her and her children’s impending eviction from their home this week.

    Steve, I have sent a copy of your “Who I Am in Christ” Scripture list to another young friend who is praying about so much these days: identity and life-style — plus serving the Lord as a musician and worship-leader in her fellowship. Please include MJ in your prayers as you go before the Lord. MJ is seeking to get comfortable in her own skin. Challenging days ahead. I believe the Scriptures will help my friend stay on track when listening for God’s voice.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  61. narrowpathseeker says:

    Good Morning All! And what a beautiful morning it is. Like Bill said of Steve’s post, “What a a great post to wake up to”. Love and Peace are beaming here again this morning from all and it would be a beautiful morning here even if it was storming outside.

    Bill, sorry about that “finish line” comment…I wasn’t thinking of it so much in terms of nearing death, but in victory. I was so moved by your ability to reach out to ALL without reservation. It seems to come so natural to you, whereas many times, I try to do what I think God wants me to do(after I question Him many times to be sure that is really what He wants me to do in hoping that I misunderstood) but even though I do it, I think I feel like Jonah…I just “don’t wanna”. I have to battle my SELF RIGHTEOUS mentality before, during, and sometimes even after I’ve done what I believe God wants me to do. (my ex is doing well health wise and should be released soon) While I do have moments of victory when I win a battle with that self righteous mentality, it soon returns and another battle begins. I would just like my feelings and my actions to be in harmony with one another like yours seem to be. However, thanks to ALL the messages here this morning there seems to be a harmonious tune in my heart.

    Thank you Gary and Pooh for the fine example of the humble efforts in resolving your differences.

    Steve, what a beautiful thought. “This is who we now are, first responders to a world in need of help.” Thank You for all the encouragement and inspiration you take the time to provide for all of us.

  62. poohpity says:

    The sad thing is on a whole I never give my opinion on the person, point out their faults, or call names. What I do however is ask questions about the inconsistencies in what someone says and what they say they believe. I have never really offered what I think about anyone on here but have received what many think about me. It is easy to point out faults but it takes time and a desire to get to know a person and see their good qualities and offer encouragement rather than trashing.

    The reason I say things about following the comment guidelines is because over the years I have been on here I can see how they prevent people from harming one another. Just like the guidelines we are given in God’s Word.

    I feel like most of the time I have to apologize for reading the Bible or when someone says something that verses pop into my head and I post them then I get slammed. You may think you are being real but it seems others are not allowed that opportunity.

  63. poohpity says:

    Last topic I asked Gary what a spirit filled life looks like then when he did not answer I gave what scripture says it looks like then Bill answered about throwing scripture around. When I asked Bill what he meant about different interpretation to scripture then Pat answered and by the end of the conversation it turned into I was everything but who I am.

    Bill, to me we can run into problems when we quote everything except scripture and know others philosophies better than we know scripture that is when syncretism can creep in and mingle with our beliefs. Does that mean I think any less of you, no. Does that mean I am putting you down by challenging that, no.

  64. Bill says:

    @pooh, I’m not sure what you mean. I don’t think I’d use a phrase like “throwing scripture around.”

    Here’s my opinion regarding what you wrote just now:

    “Bill, to me we can run into problems when we quote everything except scripture and know others philosophies better than we know scripture that is when syncretism can creep in and mingle with our beliefs.”

    I think you’re making a few unwarranted assumptions. For example:

    1. “We can run into problems…” That’s a judgment call that presupposes your view of this situation is the correct one. It also assumes I don’t also think there are times when “we can run into problems.” But it seems what you believe are “problems” and what I believe are “problems” are different. I think that’s okay. We won’t all agree on every topic. However, you don’t seem to feel that way and would prefer I agree with you. Until I do, the matter — in your mind — is not closed.

    2. “…when we quote everything except scripture…” That presupposes a few things: (a) that only quoting scripture is the best way to approach any given situation, (b) those who only quote scripture always know what they’re talking about, and (c) that I never quote scripture in my posts. I’ve quoted scripture, sometimes at great length (entire passages).

    3. “…and know other philosophers better than we know scripture.” That’s a presumption that I challenged you on before. What makes you assume I know other philosophers better than I know scripture? Is there a set number of verses you believe I (or anyone else) should quote to not incur such a presumption?

    4. “…is when syncretism can creep in and mingle with our beliefs.” That assumes any subject not associated with the scriptures can become syncretic and must, therefore, be prohibited from discussion or thought. Is it possible to have a discussion apart from the Bible? Or must every discussion be only about the Bible?

    I don’t know you. Of that, you are correct. I know, from other posts here, that your name is Deb. I know, from what you posted, that you’ve experienced some very difficult things over the years. Beyond that, i don’t know you. But I’ve had a desire to. I’ve offered to connect with you offline (via e-mail) to discuss things, or to be part of new forum/chat room to discuss things more in depth. I made myself available to you. From what I recall, my offers were not well received.

    So all I have are your posts, and the words you use in your posts. That’s the only way I will be able to know you.

    I can’t do anything about who I am. What you read in my posts is who I am as a person. That’s how I approach life — by tying together all sorts of topics, ideas, and events. That’s how my brain works.

    I apologize if I do not use enough scripture. I apologize if I draw upon pop culture (music, movies, books) or other religions to make a point. I apologize if I seem syncretic to you. I don’t know what else to say beyond that. I apologize for causing you distress or concern. That has not been my intention. All I offer are my opinions and observations. It’s up to others to determine if they have merit or not.

    I think highly of you — as I’ve written before. I think you have a lot to offer. I think you’re a wealth of scriptural knowledge. I think you have a heart for people. I appreciate you and your comments. I don’t mind questions. What I take issue with are assumptions and what appear to be accusations. There’s nothing I can do to disprove them, even though I’ve tried before.

    Let’s just agree to disagree so that we don’t bog down Mart’s threads. I want to learn from what others post. And if you and I are banging heads like mountain goats we’ll prevent others from sharing their thoughts with all of us.

    Bill

  65. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob… thanks for your input. Sometimes it takes putting away getting that last word, the last dig, or one up-man-ship, rather than continue to just make more noise or fuel the fire as you have said. Good point.
    Yes, we are all human and our humanity gets in the way.
    Thank God we are in his image not just human bodies but we are spirit as well.
    When the flesh and the spirit battle, only one csn win out the moment.
    So, when we answer spritual things, we can answer in the spirit, and when answering fleshly things, in the flesh.
    It is hard to tell another to be more spritual when you are working in the flesh, and be more fleshly when you are working in the spirit.
    So, when things are looking worldly, are being thrown around, we are probably not acting in the spirit.
    To me,that is when we are called to put away the flesh.
    Have a great day over on the other side of the pond.

    On my small screen so typos may be everyewhere, but I hope my comments are well centered. Gary

  66. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… yes one body many parts. Only one Bill, only one moment at a time, and we can only serve one Master.
    I know in my heart we all want to serve the right choices but don’t always make them our priority.
    In Christ, we have every advantage to make right choices,
    but those choices are not the same for the foot as they are for the hand! Your points are well served, and fully digested! Yum! Gary

  67. poohpity says:

    We can, to me means it is possible.

    quoting everything but scripture, means exactly that not reading anything else into it but just what it says.

    All the rest is reading things into what I say or assuming I mean something other than what is said but that is not a fault on my part that has to do with someone reading it with their own preconceived notions. That is what I deem as mental gymnastics and has to do with a persons own bias. Some of us say what we mean and mean what we say, period. Simplicity.

    Rather than taking the sentence apart read it as a whole in the context of what is being said. I was being real and honest about how I think but it is not OK for me.

    In communication training I learned to repeat what I thought a person was saying for clarification and repeat it back. If I did not understand then they would rephrase it and we learned to communicate by really listening to what another is saying without assuming what they did not say.

    I have a background in counseling as well as having had much counseling to learn how to communicate because of my many years of substance abuse and not live my life to be what others expected of me but just to be me. I can not expect others to have that same type of openness because many have learned to be on guard and to wear masks but I do not have to.

  68. poohpity says:

    There is a very big difference in self confidence/self assurance compared to self righteousness and grandiose images of self. There is an easy way to tell the difference and that is in defensiveness and suspicion of others motives.

  69. poohpity says:

    Peter tells us not to be so quick to point out the faults in others just as Jesus taught in Matt 7:3-5 NLT and again in Luke 6:37 NLT. Wouldn’t it be comforting and peaceful if that were to be part of our everyday life. Looking for the good in others and focusing on that like it says in Phil 4:8 NLT. I know there are yet many, many areas than I need the Lord’s help to change and grow. Ultimately I am harder on myself than anyone else can be because my own mirror is very reflective. Wouldn’t just be nice to understand that the love of God is greater and bigger than anything we can imagine in the grander scheme of things and when we come to fully realize all that we aren’t but know that He is, our lives will be so full of grace and mercy that we will cut others much slack because none of us measure up but Jesus knows we can be better and encourages us by asking us to just remain in Him then everything works out.

  70. SFDBWV says:

    Ok Bill time for some laughs; the only thing I know of Zen Buddhism is that it helped Phill Jackson win several NBA titles.

    And of course what I picked up watching David Carradine play Kwai Chang Caine on “Kung Fu”.

    I did see a comparative series on PBS last winter whereby they gave equal time to all of the big world religions, I remember a woman speaking of Buddhism making the claim that the concepts Jesus taught were already being taught and practiced by the Buddhist hinting at the ideas of peace and compassion that Jesus taught were not new to the world. Then again I may be confusing it with Hinduism.

    As you can see I know nothing of these other religions and now only know more of Islam because of events in the world.

    How do you handle the question most ask to me; “why is it you Christians consider that there is only one way to God and that it is through Jesus,” and not through the many other religions of the world?

    My answer is always the same, “it’s not because I said so, but because He said so,”

    This is no way to begin a conversation by having an immediate confrontation, but I would know no other way to answer.

    Steve

  71. SFDBWV says:

    See everyone tomorrow, hope all have a good night.

    Steve

  72. Bill says:

    Hi Steve,

    I also remember Kung Fu. It was one of my favorite TV shows. “When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.” I really wanted to be Kwai Chang Caine back in those days.

    The question you asked is a critical one: “Why is it you Christians consider that there is only one way to God and that it is through Jesus, and not through the many other religions of the world?”

    That is, perhaps, one of the most important questions in the world.

    I wish I was wise enough to do it justice. Perhaps others here have the definitive answer. I have three possible answers:

    1. Through signs and wonders. Many times, people believed Jesus because of miracles they say Him perform, from healing to feeding to something as seemingly ordinary as turning water into wine. (Although I’m not sure anyone saw that and noted it for the miracle it was.)

    Unfortunately, there aren’t many signs and wonders in the world today.

    2. Through the moving of the Holy Spirit. When our words fail us, and all seems lost, if God wants something to happen, He will make it happen. The moving of the Spirit is something Christians have prayed for many times over the centuries.

    Unfortunately, a life-changing outpouring of the Spirit hasn’t happened in along time, perhaps not since the early part of the last century.

    3. Through love. As I have mentioned before (ad nauseam, some would say), jesus gave us a sobering warning in John 17:20-24:

    _________

    “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.”

    _________

    This is why I continue to harp on love: because Jesus said, “…so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.”

    I truly believe that love is the key to the entire Christian life. It is the major theme of the Bible.

    It is the reason Jesus died on the cross (“For God so loved the world”). It is the reason Jesus stayed on the cross (“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do”). It is the visual reason the world will know that Jesus is who He says He is (“…so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me”).

    In my opinion, everyone reading this blog should pay very close attention to that clause: “…so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.”

    If we want the world to know that Jesus came from God, the Bible says there’s one way to do it: demonstrate love for one another.

    Conversely, if we do NOT want the world to believe our claims about Jesus, the way to do it is to NOT demonstrate love for one another. In other words, anger, backbiting, constant arguing, nitpicking, debating, disagreeing, and in-fighting will show the world Jesus is not the Son of God.

    Those aren’t Bill’s words, or Bill’s conclusions. Those are Jesus’ words.

    That’s all I got right now, Steve. I apologize if those aren’t definitive answers, or even the right answers. I’d love to know what others think.

    Have a great evening, one and all!

    Bill

  73. bubbles says:

    When those who are trained to identify counterfeit bills, they do not study the counterfeits. They study the REAL thing, and KNOW and LEARN what makes the real bills REAL.

    This same principle can apply to knowing the truth of the inspired and infalliable Word of the Living God. If we KNOW the TRUTH, we will not need to study the false truths that are out in the world.

  74. poohpity says:

    Amen, sister!!!;-)

  75. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, I can’t begin to be as gracious as Bill has been to you in your most recent round of your continual cycles of rude antagonistic behavior. I do not imagine nor assume that far too many of your messages hurt, demean, falsely accuse, and attempt to humiliate the brothers and sisters in Christ. Moreover, you deny it and manage to somehow present yourself as the victim and there is no end to it. I do however assume with good reason many other negatives which I will not state. However, you do seem to get even more aggressive when Love and Peace is running high here. I have to leave here before I regress any further. I will continue to pray for you that I may rise above myself in the anger I am feeling right now. I now imagine you chalking up another victory in bringing down another one.

  76. oneg2dblu says:

    bubbles… you brought back a childhood story about my father who was a bank teller for many years and retired a V.P. at Bankers Trust in New York back in the 70’s.
    He had a knack for finding counterfeit money that never failed him. He new what the real thing felt like in his hands, and when he would count stacks of money he would stop and seperate out all the counterfiets into a nice neat pile. Although, the person making the deposit took the loss because they could not tell the real from the fake. But, my father had such a close relationship with real, that he knew the feel of the real thing.
    He took many couterfeits out of circulation, buy just doing the right thing, and not letting wrong go through his hands.
    Becuase we are the tellers today of the story of Christ, and our hands definitely should know what right feels like. Gary

  77. poohpity says:

    Although I have known how you have felt about me for a while now, I am glad you felt comfortable enough to finally let it out. However I am not a victim, I am an overcomer through Christ Jesus.

  78. Bill says:

    Hi pooh,

    Would you be willing to step back from this thread for awhile — or at least not post any more negative comments?

    Remember, Mart is in Brazil doing important work with RBC. He doesn’t have time to set aside what he’s doing to step in and close threads to prevent further arguing.

    As a favor to Mart, could you resolve to post only positive, uplifting comments until he has time to post another blog?

    I don’t quote a lot of scripture. But when I do, I like to think it means something. Here’s one of my favorite passages. I believe it’s apropos for this evening:

    “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” (Philippians 4:8-9 ESV)

    I hope you have a wonderful evening, pooh.

    And narrow, too.

    And everyone else on the BTA board. It’s an honor to be numbered among you.

    Bill

  79. phpatato says:

    Bill

    I so very much agree with what you say….

    “…if we do NOT want the world to believe our claims about Jesus, the way to do it is to NOT demonstrate love for one another. In other words, anger, backbiting, constant arguing, nitpicking, debating, disagreeing, and in-fighting will show the world Jesus is not the Son of God.”

    Take this Christian blog for instance – I wish I knew how many drop by on even a monthly basis that tsk and click out by what they read. Even one person that gets turned off enough to leave is one person too many. Mart’s ministry blemished by Christian discord; one soul potentially lost because we can’t get our act together. Now THAT is sad!

    ***And I’m not pointing my finger at anyone in particular!****

    But why did I risk a comment? Lately, (no, more than lately!) there isn’t one topic that hasn’t got someone at some point nit-picking and debating with what someone posted, which then has someone defending what is supposed to be their simple opinion….THINK ABOUT IT…..a simple opinion made by someone just wanting to participate. We aren’t writing a master’s thesis in theology (for crying outloud) so why the dissection and analytic thinking and why are replying comments argumentative turning to then rude.

    Disclosure: The opinions expressed in the preceding comment is that of a participant. You do not have to agree. When posting a reply, please be considerate and nice. If you can’t be…silence is golden. Thank you

    Question: Can it be possible for someone to become too comfortable in their own skin to a point of becoming blind and complacent as to how they see and feel inside themself????

    P.S. Bill and Steve – I am just a grasshopper. :-)

    Pat

  80. Bill says:

    Dear Grasshopper (phpatato, a.k.a. Pat),

    Everything you posted was spot on. But this paragraph was especially remarkable:

    “We aren’t writing a master’s thesis in theology (for crying outloud) so why the dissection and analytic thinking and why are replying comments argumentative turning to then rude.”

    I hadn’t thought of it that way before. But you’re right.

    Thank you for the reminder.

    Bill

    P.S. You’ve snatched the pebble from my hand. It’s time for you to leave, Grasshopper.

  81. phpatato says:

    If I’ve snatched the pebble from your hand that means my eyesight and reflexes aren’t as bad as I thought they were. Gee and to think I thought myself as old, blind and slow. Thanks Bill!!!

  82. SFDBWV says:

    Bill I think you did an excellent job at explaining as best you can your take at the question ask of Christians ”Why is Jesus the only way to God?”

    The few people I have known and talked with who are of totally different religions most always come off as pleasant, considerate, generous and caring people. They have the same values of living as I do and the same aspirations for themselves and those they love.

    The one thing they lack is Christ.

    I had mentioned Phill Jackson earlier; he practiced the philosophy of Zen in his approach to coaching and I would imagine in his life, but that doesn’t mean he worshiped Buddha as a god.

    I am wondering if there is a difference.

    Many people profess to be Christian, yet their behavior is anything but the nature of imitating Jesus’ behavior. Yet believing Him to be who He claimed to be, “one with God”.

    In contrast some can adopt the teaching and philosophy Jesus taught and live as He demonstrated, yet doubt that He was anything except a man.

    Which of these two examples is actually a *Christian*?

    As I had stated earlier, when ask why is it that I believe that Jesus is the only way to God, I am stuck for a philosophical answer and have only to say that I believe what the Scripture says and the Scripture says Jesus is the only legitimate doorway to God, all others that come by a separate door are thieves and robbers. (John 10:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

    I believe the Scriptures to be written by the Holy Spirit, and because I believe the Bible, I believe what it says that God has said, and so believe God.

    This faith is something I can not impart to another, and so am left with only being a witness by my words and deeds for others to hear and observe, the seed I have planted will either grow or die as a matter of the host it is in and the work of the Holy Spirit, unique to that one person.

    Steve

  83. oneg2dblu says:

    Good morning all… thank you for answered prayers.
    For standing up for what is right for voicing your wisdom about how sad it is for others to see this less than Christ-like behavior the humanity in us can provoke, when provoked. However, we can control our emotions even in the heat of battle when we call upon the peacemaker. Praise to God, all His Peacemakers for their timely responces. Gary

  84. oneg2dblu says:

    responses…

  85. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… I just spent some time in those very passages and finding through further reading that, Christ certainly was the gate or the door, he is also the Shepherd, and the Lamb, the hedge of protection, the warmth found between us in our being herded, and the one who provides all things for all who hear His voice, and all who will Love and Obey Him.
    Basically, He is all things that we need, when we need them, and today we needed a peacemaker and he provided it.
    For all others here,whatever your need, He is your provider. Gary

  86. SFDBWV says:

    Maru I want to thank you for sharing *the list* with your friend MJ and am adding her to our list of people to pray for. It certainly blessed me to see how we all can work together for the needs of all.

    Pat, Bill and all who remembered the TV show “Kung Fu”, I was a full grown man by the time this show came out and was a developing Christian, however I never seen it as a threat to my Christianity only as an entertaining way of showing good triumphing over evil.

    The fact is though every good thing in this broken world sooner or later becomes corrupted and soiled. Alas this is the nature of mankind.

    Following the “Kung Fu” TV shows success, we were provided with a string of martial arts movies that kept getting more and more violent and dark and they continue to this very day.

    On that same note; when Matthew was a preteen he and I had watched a very interesting and enlightening series on PBS titled “The Trials of Life”, though not meant to, this series clearly shown the uniqueness and diversity of life and the obvious hand of creation and creation for a purpose.

    So I called and ordered the entire series all 12 videos for us to watch again at our leisure.

    Sometime later Time Life called and ask if I wanted to purchase the next series which was titled “The Predators” showcasing the cruel aspect of nature…I declined.

    I believe that Bill’s reference to Philippians 4: 8, 9 speaks to this phenomena as being if we practice all that is good this is what we glean, but if we practice evil that is our harvest.

    What we sew is what we reap. Our behavior shows who we are.

    Steve

  87. SFDBWV says:

    Good morning Gary, i was typing and posting while you posted. I agree, i hope you and all have a very blessed day.

    Matt and I are off this afternoon for a trip to the store, a small matter, but one that gets him out and around other people, an adventure he enjoys very much.

    On a sober note, I have decided not to let the ugly behavior of others have any power over me and that way their bad behavior is only another observation of just that, their bad behavior.

    Steve

  88. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… my comment about saying how the bible opposes emptying our minds completely, was only one small part of a teaching that came to me through my pastor as he was explaining why all the other religions of the world fail. They fail to support Jesus Christ as the Only Way to God, Jesus Christ as God, and Our God as the One and Only True God… the “I AM.”
    Only Christ can provide Salvation, a statue can not ever come to life, but Christ lives forever! A statue can never speak, but Our God, Our Jesus, speaks to us daily through His Word, through His Spirit, and through His people.
    No other religion on Earth can ever claim those things,
    where some claim parts, they miss the whole. Some come close but miss the mark.
    Others aim at the earth and its things and miss the mark of Heaven. When we aim at Heaven, we hit the mark and get the earth thrown in.
    That is what separates us from all others, and that’s what gives us the Only Way to God, God’s Kingdom, God’s Promises, and God’s only Son, Jesus Christ, Our Saviour.
    Enough of my earthy bragging, but the real truth is just so hard to believe and contain!
    God though, through His Grace, even gives us that Touch of Faith to first Believe!
    That’s His Story, and I’m sticking to it! Gary

    PS Please be careful about calling others grasshopper, for some religions believe they actually are others.
    Not to offend, but only to show what others find as their truth, when they practice other religions.
    I may be wrong on this but I think that reincarnation is actaully taught that way.
    But, I’m like Steve, I am not that well versed on all other religions, because so far, I have not studied them all!
    In fact, I may never be done learning and living with the one I’m living with now! Thank God! Gary

  89. phpatato says:

    Hi Steve

    I agree with you. I believe that what you feed your mind has a bearing on how you look at life. I seldom watch tv anymore (and I am beginning to not watch the news). If I sit down to watch tv, it is usually the home decorating network. I find I become quickly disgusted by what tv has to offer. The shows are either too violent, is overflowing with sexual overtones and is, quite frankly, a waste of time. Reality shows, which is what tv is full of now, show just how far down the ladder mankind has slid.

    God gave us eyes to feast upon the good things in life. I often ask myself “Is this something God wants my eyes to see and my mind to feed on?” Phil 4:8, 9 so often comes to mind.

    If I become “stupid” because I refuse to watch tv, the newscast included, so be it. Until there is a wholesome show to put my evenings in to watching, I’d sooner sit at my computer and click in to things that I have control over. More times than not, I will bring up you tube, type in Because He Lives and listen to that song (or other hymns sung by other artists) and play a game of solitaire, or chat with a dear friend of mine on facebook. Come bedtime, I get out my Bible, read ODB for the day and spend the rest of my waking time with the Lord. Ignorance, to me, is bliss.

    Gary

    Grasshopper was a pet name given to a character (David Carradine) in the Kung Fu tv show that aired back in 1972 – 1975.

    Bill and Steve:

    Master Po: Close your eyes. What do you hear?
    Young Caine: I hear the water, I hear the birds.
    Po: Do you hear your own heartbeat?
    Caine: No.
    Po: Do you hear the grasshopper which is at your feet?
    Caine: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
    Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

  90. cherielyn says:

    Re: Posts by Steve @October 22, 2012 at 3:50 pm & October 23, 2012 at 5:43 am and Bill’s @October 22, 2012 at 4:47 pm regarding how to answer those who question why Christians say that Jesus is the only way.

    I admire and fully agree with both of your comments.

    However, to boil it down in the simplest terms, Jesus said so Himself in John 14:6(KJV) “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

    To emphasize: NO MAN comes to the Father. BUT BY ME (JESUS).

    I value your insights so much. That doesn’t mean that I don’t also value those of many of the others on here, but those particular posts really spoke to my heart when I read them. Thank you.

    Off subject – Need more prayer. Hhad my son to the ER twice in the past 10 days. Yesterday was the second time. It’s been somewhat overwhelming with recent things he is experiencing, mainly hallucinations due, in part to his dementia, but moreso to extreme dehydration from a bad bout with an intestinal bug.

  91. foreverblessed says:

    Hello everybody, I was is England for awhile, lovely country, also in the mist. The Canterbury Cathedral was really impressing. I felt like as if the old kings could come around the corner.
    Mart talked about being suspicious about one another. I think he has a big point. Gary wrote this morning: responses… and I thought he was waiting for responses to his comment. Had a big laugh later on, sorry Gary.

  92. foreverblessed says:

    Cherielyn, I pray for your son, and for you too. Grace and peace from God the Father, and His son Jesus Christ, what a beautiful encouragement that is, what a way to greet one another!

  93. oneg2dblu says:

    Pat… yew I know Grasshopper, I watched that show faithfully and enjoyed the lessons of the old man.
    Now, I’m the old man who makes the mistakes and the young ones teach me! Have a great day! Gary

  94. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… I’m glad that brought you a good laugh today. I guess what we write can be seen in many ways. So just continue being forever blessed! Gary

  95. cherielyn says:

    I’m clueless! What is all this stuff about the Grasshopper?

    The only thing I can think of is how the Bible compares the ant and the grasshopper & from the context I have read in the above posts, that text does not seem to apply to the discussion.

    Please enlighten me.

  96. oneg2dblu says:

    cherielyn… sorry this is just some lightheated banter from a ways back. Plays like a broken record now and who can undersdtand that! Yes,it may be off topic. Please forgive. Gary

  97. cherielyn says:

    When I said that the text does not seem to apply to the discussion, I did not mean off topic, but rather that the ant & grasshopper (I think in Proverbs) did not seem to apply to the meaning of the discussion you were having about the Grasshopper.

    Still want to know.

    I need some light-hearted moments at this time. Sounds like an explanation of the Grasshopper would fill that need, if you care to share more indepth on it.

  98. Bill says:

    @cherielyn, “Grasshopper” comes from the banter about the old TV show Kung Fu.

    The young monk, with shaved head, was nicknamed “Grasshopper” by old, blind Master Po. I think, because of the exchange Pat mentioned earlier:

    Master Po: Close your eyes. What do you hear?
    Young Caine: I hear the water, I hear the birds.
    Po: Do you hear your own heartbeat?
    Caine: No.
    Po: Do you hear the grasshopper which is at your feet?
    Caine: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
    Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

    So we were just having fun with an old TV show. Had no reference to the Bible.

  99. cherielyn says:

    I can’t find the ant and grasshopper story in the Bible. Maybe it was in a children’s book. It compared how the ant is busy storing away food for the winter, while the grasshopper spends the summer leisurely, not giving any thought for winter. Then when winter comes he has no food supply and I think the story went that he tried to get the ant to feel sorry for him and share the food it had stored for winter.

    Anyway, that story did not seem to be along the lines of what your Grasshopper comments were.

    In reading some of the other posts, I see what is meant by a person saying something and having it taken differently than meant, i.e I was not pointing out being off topic, but that the ant/grasshopper story I had in mind was obviously not the one that was being discussed.

  100. cherielyn says:

    Ok, Bill, now I ‘get it’ (kind of). One of my sons liked Kung Fu. I don’t remember much about it.

  101. cherielyn says:

    Thanks for the explanation. This was supposed to be attached to my last post, but I accidentally hit the submit button before I was finished. I hate when that happens!

  102. davids says:

    Comfortable in my own skin? Yes. I know that I sin daily, at least in my heart. So I know that everyone else does too. Whether they are a devout believer, an unbeliever, or that huge group that say, “I believe in God, I’m just not into all that mumbo-jumbo.”

    Therefore, unlike Gary (whom I respect), I do not believe that the Message ought to lead with conviction, but rather with love. Not to be splitting hairs, since in a way they are merely two sides of the same coin, or perhaps the two blades of the same scissors.

  103. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    David, you are right, as is Gary, as is Bill, as is Steve and everyone else.
    We all see the same thing but from a different place.
    Two side of the same coin?

    For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.

    Hebrews 4:12 (AMP)

    Yes!
    Conviction with Love or Love with Conviction.
    Love always produces an action or reaction.

    “God so Loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ……. ”

    Such Love “Demands my Life, My Soul, My All”

  104. davids says:

    Steve and Bill, I recently “read” (listened to) “The Everlasting Man” by Chesterton, 1925. If you are interesed in comparative religion, it is great. It is the book that C. S. Lewis said turned him toward Christianity. So, these thoughts are not entirely my own.

    There seems to be a confusion between “belief systems” and religion. Confucianism and its descendant Zen talk about a philosphy of life and in that they provide some wisdom, but they do not talk about God. To call them religions like Christianity is a false comparison. It is like comparing spaghetti sauces and including ketchup because it contains tomatoes.

    Confucianism and Zen are philosophies of life that can accomodate different religions. Hinduism and Bhuddism are religions that can accomodate different philosophies of life. Chritianity, Judaism, and Islam are quite separate because they are both a philosophy of life and a religion.

    What separates Christianity from other religions? No disrespect, Bill, to your three points, but I’m going to take another approach: history.

    Unlike Hinduism, Christianity arrived just at the time when writing emerged from mythology into history. Those who wrtoe the New Testament were not writing of things passed down, like Homer’s Oddessy, but of things that they or others they talked to had seen.

    Further, there are non-Christian writers, Jewish and Roman, at that time that bore witness to the fact that soon after Jesus’ death a lot of people already believed in Christ, and were willing to suffer greatly and die for that belief.

    [I could continue here about Christianity and Islam, but I won’t]

    Finally, Bill, I would disagree with one of your points: “Unfortunately, a life-changing outpouring of the Spirit hasn’t happened in along time, perhaps not since the early part of the last century.” I believe that this happens everyday to individuals and even to groups in Africa and Asia to this day.

    Sorry to be so long-winded. Amen!

  105. kingdomkid7 says:

    David, your distinction between religion and philosophy of life is helpful to me, as is the rest of what you say about history. What you say reminds me of some of the history discussed in the book I’m still trying to finish reading, I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, which is a great apologetic. But I still have a question for you: if Christianity is both a philosophy and a religion, then how can any other “philosophy” be absorbed within it without blemishing Christianity? In other words, wouldn’t any other philosophy be conflicting, simply by definition of being “other” than Christian (or Muslim or Jewish, to use your whole example)? I’m struggling with this.

  106. Bill says:

    @David, Chesterton was brilliant! That’s a great source book. Thank you!

    Zen and Buddhism often struggle with what to call themselves. They’re not religions, technically. But they are usually classified as such. For my purpose, I used the nomenclature most commonly used and understood in reference to them.

    Regarding your use of “history” as a delineator, I’m not sure that’s entirely valid. Buddhism has been around for 2,500 years, Hinduism longer than that. If we have to use “history” as proof, we’ll be debating all day long with the world. Paganism likely predates all religions. So we’d lose that argument.

    And Buddhist sutras often were written by people who were physically present with the Buddha. So I don’t think we can use first-hand accounts as “proofs” of anything — especially since the New Testament was written after Jesus had died. So the accounts, although first hand, were written decades after Jesus was no longer on earth.

    My comment regarding the outpouring of the Spirit is in reference to documented accounts of the various major movements that changed society. It’s possible such a society-changing movement may now be occurring. I just haven’t heard about it. If you say it is, I believe you.

    @kingdomkid, you asked, “Is Christianity a religion? Or a philosophy?”

    I’d say neither. It is a relationship. To my knowledge, it is the only “religion” that is actually a relationship with the object of the “religion.”

    As Bob has noted, there is a lot of wisdom here. I like it.

    Bill

  107. kingdomkid7 says:

    No, Bill, I was not asking whether Christianity is a religion. I was taking David at his statement that Christianity is both a philosophy of life and a religion. I would agree with you that it’s a relationship, but I was trying to see what it looks like if Christianity-as-philosophy-of-life “mixes” with other “philosophies of life.”My supposition is that Christianity simply doesn’t mix with others. It is designed by God to be unique, not just another “religion.”The OT and NT both warn of the dangers of mixing other so-called wise thinking into the faith of Abraham and us as his descendants. The Bible says Jesus came at just the right time, and when He did, all the other religions and systems of thought had to simply step aside. The fullness of time had simply come. I don’t mean to ramble, but look at Solomon when he tried to be forward thinking and embrace his wives’ beliefs. Look at the mixed-up Gnostics Paul warns about. Look at what they are now calling “chrislam,” a weird mixture of Christianity and Islam. It just doesn’t work, because it’s not meant to work. At least this is all in my (certainly personal, potentially flawed, humble) opinion. ;-)

  108. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Kingdomkid – your words make so much sense to me. They sound simple, concise and right. Thank you.

    1 Corinthians 1:20-31 NIV

  109. oneg2dblu says:

    Good morning all… I don’t know if we are splitting hairs or just readjusting our aim, as we have to constantly help others and ourselves to the greater vision, the love of Jesus Christ.
    I liked the explanation that Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship. There is no greater truth to be known, but it is not known by this world, or by other religions, or even by many of those who are now called Christian, but live as though His Spirit has never lived in them.
    They are confused by their doctrine, by their church membership, church attendance, putting something in their well gathered offering envelopes, they are baptized as children, baptized by family pressure, baptized by pier pressure, but none of those things constitutes a personal relationship with Christ. They are lacking only one thing, they are not truly showing the manifestations of the Indwelling Spirit!
    They crab for their bible, their titles, and their documents of faith that credit only the approvals of man. They wear their bumper stickers proudly, their crosses, their tattoos, and you name it, and unfortunately many do so falsely in the name of Christ, but they do not have that relationship that says they must exist to bear, bear good fruit, or much fruit.
    Where that is lacking you have the abundance of the great deception, “The Frustration of the Divine Plan!”
    You have the worldly acting godly, and the Godly acting worldly, both failing to have that proper relationship which is the “two way” street to Heaven!
    Whenever, I remember Joseph’s dream with the staircase, I wonder why there is a doctrinal today that tends to show us only a one way escalator!
    I see multitudes living as if they are jumping carelessly over the guardrails to their own peril, and others see by their doctrine, the Hand of God holding them all captive from ever jumping off.
    Each following their chosen church, doctrine, and supporting verses, that support their belief system, and also divide the church, divide the scriptures, divide the message, and frustrate His Plan for Salvation.
    If we, who are His body, being only one body, then why do we walk in so many different ways?
    Unfortunately, the world at large that see our walk and witness, remain confused about this as much as we are.
    It is no wonder why other religions are so attractive to a seeking world that does not know Christ as their Saviour, and only sees their followers witness as being so compelling.
    Love seems to be everywhere, yet the Love of Christ seems to be lost when Christians should display a greater love than these.
    I wonder why? Don’t you?

    Perhaps we’ve become too comfortable in our own skin, church, doctrine, translation, and interpretation!

    If this does not apply to you, then you have found what the whole world misses today, knowing the great I AM, by personal relationship only. Gary

  110. oneg2dblu says:

    Condensed Version… if we remain constantly connected to the vine, then we can become the branch, or vehicle that wil produce fruit, good fruit, much fruit.
    That is something found only in a daily relationship, and not in a Sunday only , or in any one day event, like that the stuff found in false teaching and worldly religion. Gary

  111. SFDBWV says:

    I live in a world that has become smaller thanks to TV and the internet. I do not live in a monastery or nunnery that has no contact with the outside world. In fact if I am correct the outside world is exactly where Jesus wants us to be, in the midst of it

    Jesus sat with tax collectors and harlots and said no doubt others would call Him a “winebibber” for doing so. (Matthew 11: 19) (Luke &: 34)

    Just because Jesus was aware of the world around Him did not make Him a follower of that world.

    If we were to attempt to ignore or worse erase all other knowledge from the world because it was not of our *religion* we would be guilty of crimes of the past and crimes of the present attitude of Islam extremist’s.

    The Spanish conquest of the New World was a terrible tragedy of the destruction of entire cultures in the attempt to make only Christianity the accepted *religion* of its conquest.

    In doing so it presented both the true Christ as well as the false Christ. Anywhere the Gospel is preached it will harvest souls, but to do so by eradicating the religions, history and culture of another people is not how the true Christ wants it done; and so a false representation of Christ is given.

    It is my understanding that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, not just a sect or off shoot of it.

    So we have the co mingling of both the religious beliefs of Judaism with Christianity, the major exception being Christianity accepts the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth as being the true and only Messiah and so the conclusion of the whole of text of the Hebrew Torah and the Testimony of the New Testament.
    In the OT conquest of the Promised Land, God had the Hebrews eradicate the people in its wake, their existence erased from the world so as not to tempt the Hebrew into accepting these idols and gods as the populations already there had done. It would seem this was the credentials that the Spanish used to do the same in *conquering* the New World.

    However this is not the instruction or direction given by Jesus to His Disciples, He clearly said He would bring division amongst people and when the Gospel rejected, to wipe the dust from their feet and move on….Not kill off all who disagree.

    So we live in a world that is very diverse and very divided, our job is to present the Gospel and Jesus to the lost of the world in Word and deed, but not to ignore the world while doing so.

    It is very important to know the enemy and how he thinks, if we are to be successful is providing a good witness. Confrontation and quoting Scripture doesn’t always work, sometimes we have to show common ground in order to show a common Savior.

    I have ran long and out of time. Blessings to all.

    Steve

  112. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    Getting comfortable in our own skins has to do with heart and mouth confession, it seems to me.

    Kingdomkid, you wrote:

    “The OT and NT both warn of the dangers of mixing other so-called wise thinking into the faith of Abraham and us as his descendants.” I agree with you entirely.

    We live by the f-word! Philosophical ground is top-heavy in my experience. When the understanding of what God has accomplished by coming to earth in a skin-suit, and that understanding drops the 18” into our hearts (souls, spirits…) – wham! We depart the ground of philosophy and enter the holy ground of faith.

    I think of the apostle Paul in Athens. He could stand on philosophical ground with the best. But, when he spoke to the Epicureans and Stoics, he guided the conversation to the point beyond which no thinker can go – the point of believing. (Acts 17:23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28).

    Yours in Christ,
    Maru

  113. kingdomkid7 says:

    Holy ground it is.! Thank you, Maru.

  114. dja says:

    Good Morning BTA Brothers and Sisters,

    I had been away for a week helping my daughter, and on my return home, I came down with a horrendous stomach flu, and my computer crashed. So, because of being so sick and not having my computer, I fell behind in reading. Yesterday, I got my computer back with a new hard-drive, and thankfully, the nice computer man was able to retrieve most everything that I thought was lost:-)

    I just finished reading through 112 comments, and I must say that I am so thankful for so many of the comments. Steve and Bill, you both write so clearly-such a blessing. I will not be adding my thoughts today because I feel like much has been said that I certainly can not say better.

    Please know that I have been praying for you all. Maru, I have been praying for Chris and will add MJ to my prayers. Cherielyn, I am praying for you and for your son. Steve, thank you for the list of who we are in Christ. I copied and pasted it. Know that I continually pray for Matt and for you and Glenna. Mart, I am so thankful for your writings, and I pray for the Lord’s blessing on your ministry in Brazil.

    Cooler nights and in the high 50’s – low 60’s here in NEPA. The leaves are breathtaking right now. Wish they could stay that way, but as the hymnwriter wrote:

    “Summer and winter, and springtime and harvest, Sun, moon, and stars in their courses above Join with all nature in manifold witness To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love. Great is Thy faithfulness! Great is Thy faithfulness! Morning by morning new mercies I see; All I have needed, Thy hand hath provided; Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me!”

    His faithfulness, His constant love is how I can and am comfortable in my own skin. To Him be all the Glory!

    ~Della

  115. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Just want to pick up on Gary’s theme of the religious “christian” with no relationship and what Steve said….

    ” If we were to attempt to ignore or worse erase all other knowledge from the world because it was not of our *religion* we would be guilty of crimes of the past and crimes of the present attitude of Islam extremist’s.

    The Spanish conquest of the New World was a terrible tragedy of the destruction of entire cultures in the attempt to make only Christianity the accepted *religion* of its conquest.”

    Where I live in West Cornwall, on the most southern & western tip of Britain, there is a strong Methodist tradition. Years ago everyone went to church whether they knew Jesus or not and society was run as if everyone followed the same rules.
    We have a festival called Lifeboat Day where we celebrate the work of the RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat institute) and the Air Sea Rescue service based nearby.
    I remember only a few years ago one of the elders in our church saying it was a disgrace seeing all the stalls and marques on the harbour side on a Sunday.
    That would never have happened in the past.
    And one day our 84 year old church leader mentioned honouring the Sabbath & keeping it holy, to which I replied, “Sunday is not the Sabbath”.
    It seems that in the past everyone was willing to live by these made up man made rules of religion.
    Today we have got back to a more “normal” society a bit like it was when Jesus was alive.
    Our streets are filled with many diverse people, cultures and languages all working together and yet following their own belief systems or not following anything at all.
    Our traditional churches are empty and now turned in to holiday homes. Christ Body is still alive and well, but now lives alongside all the rest instead of the rest, who did not believe, living inside the the church because the church dictated how there lives were run.
    The world is a smaller place and what I type here can be seen in every home on this planet that has internet access via a computer or smart phone.
    Yes we are bombarded by all kinds of rubbish & evil but what power we have to communicate the gospel in both word and deed.
    I said this on a previous post and will say it again…

    “There is no need to preach, no need to quote scripture, no need to judge, just a need to love without question and leave the rest to God.”
    I will add, there is no need to force others to conform to our image of “Christianity” or obey our rules.
    Just love one another as He has loved us and treat our neighbour as we would want to be treated.
    Remember when the Hebrews were dying in the wilderness they had to look at the serpent on the pole to be healed. They were not forced to conform but did it because that was the only way to salvation.
    We cannot force people to look at the cross & to Jesus, all we can do is look ourselves and we will be made whole and when others see that we have found our salvation they will look as well and find their own salvation in Him.

    Bob

  116. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    Thanks for the prompt & reminder, Della! Cherielyn, I am keeping your son in my heart and in my prayers. His healing is in Jesus’ hands.

    I will see Chris today, Lord willing. The eviction date for her and her children is coming at us fast. My thanks to all who have kept her and her situation before the throne of grace.

    Blessings,
    Maru

    PS This past summer I moved to a part of the church where the majority of the saints act up quite freely in the fellowship (clergy and laity). I pray to be present to the Lord Jesus and to have a prayerful heart at all times, so that I may love all as He does.

  117. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I am reminded of something!

    I have a friend who always ends his emails with the words… “Keep Looking Up”.

    You know what it is like if you stare up at the sky, you will get others come alongside and look as well and then they will say “what are you looking at?”.

    Well that is all we have to do “Keep Looking Up” and it won’t be long before we attract a crowd.

    Bob

  118. poohpity says:

    Amen Bob, such wisdom, grace and conviction for me. Thank you. Each of us is responsible for our own response to God and He can take care of the rest. You have stated what is the most important thing, “Just love one another as He has loved us and treat our neighbor as we would want to be treated.”

  119. poohpity says:

    Gentle conviction I might add.

  120. poohpity says:

    Bob, Proverbs 27:9 NLT

  121. SFDBWV says:

    I just stopped in for a quick moment to share something I received today from another daily devotional I get.

    Leviticus 19: 18 and Matthew 22: 36, 37, 38, 39, 40

    Our Lord speaking in the Old Testament and again in the New with the same theme.

    Steve

  122. davids says:

    kingdomkid7, sorry for my delayed reply. I only read this blog one time per day.

    In place of Philosophy of Life, I might better have written System of Ethics, which is another way of saying how to live a happy life. Even athiests generally have some ethical system.

    I do believe – and some here would disagree, but by disagreeing they perhaps support what I am saying – that Christianity allows a wide range of ethical beliefs. It includes Mennonites, politically conservative and liberal, and those that have tattoos (wink, Gary). I think that the unity of God’s church would be strengthened if we accept some disunity.

    On the other hand, Christianity has a Philosophy/System of Ethics that I believe does not allow it to co-exist with other Systems of Ethics. Eastern Philosophies like Confusionism view life as a circle, as a returning and a balance. Any good you do is only balanced by evil elsewhere and there is no progress. Christianity states that the good you do contributes to the furtherance of the Kingdom. It is a philosophy about progress.

    That is not to say that other Systems of Ethics might not have wise teachings, as Bill has pointed out.

  123. davids says:

    Ooops, what a Freudian slip. Confucianism, not Confusionism!

  124. oneg2dblu says:

    How great it would be if this “Love” we are speaking of just had the same meaning for all people. But it clearly does not!
    Don’t the Pagan’s who now love quite freely and often, also have a type of love?
    We certainly can’t be talking about any kind of sexual love here, or more specifically, any biblically immoral sexual love though, because against that type of love, there ARE laws. In many countries today, they are still there, and for a reason.
    But, unfortunately things are being changed today, as the bible plays a lesser and lesser role, in the lives of the freely sinning masses.
    Perhaps, that is the most defiling type of love because it harms both parties, and everyone else who condone it, for God’s Word clearly condemns it. We all know how God defines that type of sin. Verse reference it yourself. God finds it detestable; it is not His design or desire that we practice such things.
    Or, has God also changed his mind to suit the desires of our now more modern thinking man and his ever changing society?
    Out of context, or off topic? You decide…
    Your neighbor may not want your type of love in his house, in his face, in his children’s face, so we need to constantly define through God’s word, exactly how we are to live, or witness or we will go astray and lead others to go astray.
    We are not to live as weeds always having their own way, but live as if being pruned by God, into producing his type of love, good fruit, and much fruit.
    “Be fruitful and multiply, still rings in my ears, and they don’t itch like the masse today looking for another meaning!”
    There is a difference, and in my “closed minded” opinion, or strict biblical view, we have been clearly warned in His Word, for a reason.
    “Be wary of the Intoxication of Gradualism.” Martin Luther King
    Gary

  125. davids says:

    Bill, I think I might not have communicated well about history. I don’t mean to say that Christianity has a claim to authenticity because it is old.

    I meant to say that it’s claim to authenticity comes from the fact that is was recorded AS history by witnesses and by other historial documents of the time.

    Hindu scripture and pagan tales are old, but they were oral traditions, subject to continuous modification. The story of the Buddha also has very different sources.

    The information we have about Jesus, however, was recorded by people that knew him, and those that knew people that knew him. They are like multiple witnesses to a car accident: different but consistent.

    Jews and Romans like Josephus and Tacitus referred to him. Tacitus wrote his “Annals” of Rome in 116 AD, talking about the events during Emperor Nero’s reign (64 AD): “Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.” Thirty years after Jesus’ death and ressurection there was such a large following of Him in Rome that Nero could blame them for the great fire he had set. Wow!

    This historical authenticity is what led me to Christ. It might be unimportant to others, but for me it was the final push.

    Amazing Grace, how sweet it is.

  126. davids says:

    Gary, I don’t know where all of that came from. Are any of us here encouraging sexual immorality or confusing Christian love with sexual love?

  127. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Gary,

    There has been no mentioned of any kind of love apart from agape love.

    “Greater love has no man than this in that he should lay down his life for his friends”

    Laying down one’s life does not always mean death but goes right back to that dying to self and doing something for a friend, or even an enemy, that does not come easy to us, when what I want to do is replaced by what can I do for you.

    Bob

  128. Bill says:

    Here’s where I think we’re going to bog down.

    To me, love is love.

    Yes, there are different kinds of love — from agape to sexual to friendship to fondness. There are at least three definitions of love in the Greek language:

    Agape

    Eros

    Philia

    In addition, other cultures have many different words for love. I once read an article about a culture that had dozens of different words for the many nuances for the word love. I just Googled the issue and found an entry that claimed there are 96 sanskrit words for love.

    What I think stops Christians from actually BEING love is that they have to stop and think, “Now, is this Christian love? Or is this another kind of love?”

    Why do we have to worry about what love is? Why can’t we just BE love and let God worry about the outcome?

    I think Christians worry way too much about what others are doing and not enough time worrying about what we’re doing.

    @davids, you have a good knowledge of other religions and the historicity of the Christian religion. You also have a solid understanding of philosophy and ethics. A kindred spirit!

    A couple of comments regarding what you wrote (October 24, 2012 at 5:21 pm):

    “Hindu scripture and pagan tales are old, but they were oral traditions, subject to continuous modification. The story of the Buddha also has very different sources.

    The information we have about Jesus, however, was recorded by people that knew him, and those that knew people that knew him. They are like multiple witnesses to a car accident: different but consistent.”

    Not to be a stickler for this matter, but Buddhist accounts were also written by people that knew him. And those that knew people that knew him.

    There are many similarities between Buddhism and Christianity regarding the age of the religions (Buddhism has about 500-year jump on Christianity). The MAIN difference between them is Jesus. Buddhism has postulated that it could exist whether Buddha lived or not. It’s system of beliefs are based on pragmatism, what “works.” But it may not need Buddha to continue as an ideology/philosophy/religion.

    HInduism is the same way. It could probably exist apart from Krishna or other Hindu deities.

    Christianity, on the other hand, could not exist apart from Jesus.

    Earlier today (October 24, 2012 at 4:51 pm), you wrote:

    “I do believe – and some here would disagree, but by disagreeing they perhaps support what I am saying – that Christianity allows a wide range of ethical beliefs. It includes Mennonites, politically conservative and liberal, and those that have tattoos (wink, Gary). I think that the unity of God’s church would be strengthened if we accept some disunity.”

    That is one of the most profound, rock-solid paragraphs I’ve ever read. I believe you are 100% correct.

    I think Christianity is in disarray today (and losing members to other religions, or no religion at all — atheism) for that very reason: We have been trying to conform everybody into a rigid mould for decades. All who don’t fit the mould are cast out. Problem is, every denomination, perhaps even every church, has its own definition of what the mould is.

    Instead of embracing the world full of people, we have shunned it. And we are suffering for it. And that doesn’t even take into account all those we have shunned. What have their lives become?

    You also wrote:

    “On the other hand, Christianity has a Philosophy/System of Ethics that I believe does not allow it to co-exist with other Systems of Ethics. Eastern Philosophies like Confusionism view life as a circle, as a returning and a balance. Any good you do is only balanced by evil elsewhere and there is no progress. Christianity states that the good you do contributes to the furtherance of the Kingdom. It is a philosophy about progress.”

    On this point you are only partially correct. it’s not Christianity’s “Philosophy/System of Ethics” that does not allow it to co-exist with other Systems of Ethics. It’s our propositional truths.

    I am actually researching a book on this subject. So I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about it.

    The one reason why Christianity does not “fit” with other religions — even though there are noteworthy overlaps between them in ethical approaches to people and life — is because our religion is based on propositional truths, things we say are always true. Things we say are always untrue. Christianity is based on lines in the sand. We draw them and tell the world, “THIS is how it is.” The implication is that everything that is not “how it is,” is wrong. So Christianity exists every single day telling all others — in every walk of life, in every religion — that they’re wrong.

    That might not be a problem (for us or the world) if we did not draw those lines in the sand for every issue: smoking, drinking, dating, music, dancing, card playing, Harry Potter, Liberalism, abortion — you name it. We have made EVERYTHING an absolute truth, a line in the sand.

    I could go on and on and on about this. But I won’t.

    What I will say is this: Christianity’s main concern should not be the infiltration of the ethics or beliefs of other religions. It should be what WE do or do not do — to ourselves, to others, to the world.

    We are our own worst enemy.

    If Christianity continues to be marginalized, it won’t be because of what Buddhists do, or what homosexuals do, or what Harry Potter does — it’ll be because of what we failed to do: Keep our hearts open, our arms ready to help, and our mouths shut.

    The world truly doesn’t need any more opinions from Christians. The world needs Christians to BE Christians — selfless, loving, giving, and passionately driven to make the world a better place. Not because we believe, in a Dominion-theology sort of way, that we can bring the kingdom to earth. But because we are charged with the souls of all living creatures. We can either spend our time debating the evils of Harry Potter (or the meaning of the word love), or we can feed, clothe, and love people.

    It’s up to us.

    But the clock is ticking.

    Bill

    P.S. As always, 100% of this post is my opinion. I am not God. What I wrote is not scripture. This is only my opinion. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

  129. oneg2dblu says:

    First I appologize for bringing only one type of love into the conversation, but had to start somewhere, and that was what came to mind first, as I am sometimes human.
    Bob… yes, Agape love. That is pure love. A love by which God loves us. Yes, keep looking up, is also
    great advice! Thanks!
    Bill you nailed it about the many types of love, well done, as usual.
    Davids… you have given much here also, thank you.
    Claudia… that was a wonderful explanation.
    Now I wonder this…
    Here is a general question: Do you think Pagan’s or nonchristians also have this Agape love- or is it only for those who have experienced the Love of Christ shown to them, and have the Holy Spirit within them?
    Or could mankind stumble upon this love on his own,or is it only found through God’s specific love and direction?
    I’m not trying to run my own blog, but the answers from your corporate knowledge, when given so freely will always be of greater value than one opinion. Especially mine! Gary

  130. Bill says:

    @Gary, as usual, you’ve given me something to think about. Thank you!

    You wrote:

    “Do you think Pagan’s or nonchristians also have this Agape love- or is it only for those who have experienced the Love of Christ shown to them, and have the Holy Spirit within them?”

    Here’s my answer:

    “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.” (1 John 4:7-8 ESV)

    I believe love, being the opposite of hate, is from God. Love is God’s gift to the world — not just the feeling of love, which is shared by all human beings — Christian or not…but a real, tangible, embodiment of love, His Son.

    I’m not sure non-Christians have agape love. I think the very definition of it means the kind of love God demonstrated to us through His Son.

    But I think every human being feels love because God put the capacity to love in each one of us. Even non-Christians can love, and love deeply. I think it’s wrong of us to discount or downplay the love human beings feel just because they’re not Christians.

    Here’s a question for you: “Which would you rather have — a non-Christian showing love (feeding, clothing, listening, hugging)…or a Christian not showing love?”

    I vote for the former. Every time.

  131. foreverblessed says:

    Good morning everyone, we are talking about love now.
    Doesn’t God look at the heart, if He seas a genuine desire to help others, doesn’t He see that they have already done what was the heart of Jesus’ teaching: love God and love others as yourself, and doesn’t He then have a desire to come to them and show the way to God through Jesus?
    Years ago I had a friend who was involved in a spiritual therapy, involving the wisdom of spiritual entities to help people from their ailments. I tried to tell her that she was on a wrong path, that she needed to be warned for this terrible thing, and so I did. And then I had a dream: there was a thief in my house, trying to hurt me. THis friend comes in, and helps me. She is so concerned in my well being caring for me, but in my dream I want to go after the thief, go and get him. I woke up, and saw that in my zeal to eradicate the wrong I had less love then she in her desire to help people. Yes, God looks at the heart. And it is best we look for the heart of God, and see what He wants us to do. In this case I had better prayed for her, so that when the time was ripe, God could show her she was on a wrong path, and would show that in Jesus all sins and ailments can be cured.

  132. SFDBWV says:

    Goodness such diversity, love, history, philosophy, sex, religion, I love it, the community is speaking about life and doing so aligned to following Jesus of Nazareth as *The Way*.

    A young Christian man whom I once worked with shared with me the fact that he had always thought people who were in jail belonged there and was getting just what they deserved, he had no sympathy for them at all; that was until his church placed him in the position of going to the jail and presenting the Gospel message to them.

    At first he said he was confused about his mixture of feelings then began to see these people differently.

    My added advice to him was to surround his new converts with other Christians as these *new* Christians were especially vulnerable to the distractions of non believers and the trappings of their old desires.

    I think it still remains true as we age and mature growing in Christ, we need the reassurance that being around and hearing from other Christians bring. There are a great many Christians who struggle with doubts and it is dangerous to leave them alone with their fears and questions.

    For many their best defense against the false religions of the world may seem to be to just avoid knowing anything of them, yet like avoiding inoculation of children eventually they are exposed to the germ and are not prepared to encounter them.

    The Holy Spirit bears witness of Himself and warns us of many things, but the truth is we too often push aside His urgings in order to follow our own desires and curiosities.

    We must be cautious as we are warned that we can not embrace fire with out getting burned. We must also show maturity and love by protecting others who may be weak or confused and not lead them into confusion, but rather help keep them on the straight and narrow path Jesus leads us on.

    Steve

  133. SFDBWV says:

    In reading some thoughts from others I am urged to remind us that we all come from the same beginning, Adam and Eve.

    We all are created beings and all share every human emotion no matter where we are in the world or what religious affiliation we have associated ourselves with.

    As created being we also are made in the image of God, that image isn’t confined to our physical appearance, but to all the aspects God the Father would impart to his children.

    Now even before the fall of Adam as is the case right now, children have the tendency to stray from the mature wisdom of their parents.

    Indeed there are many variations of love and they all come from God, just as all things that exist come from God.

    Adam was alone in all of creation; God was alone with the Trinity before creation. God knew Adam needed the proper helper and companion and so created Eve from the already created Adam.

    God understood being lonely, this is a type of love, understanding the need in another and having compassion for another’s need.

    Understanding and feeling compassion is only part of love, action is the fulfillment of that love.

    God acted on His love for Adam and has continued to all throughout the history of mankind, especially at the cross.

    We have that same capacity to love and when we learn how to use the gift of love properly we find that we are in alignment with God.

    Being Christian we learn from the Master and like a light in the darkness need show the rest of the world pure love, agape love.

    Is this easy? No. Was the cross easy for Jesus? No. Will we struggle? Yes. Will we fail? We can only fail not to love.

    Claudia is very right, many of us give up our own lives and desires for another and by doing so lay down our lives for another. Is this easy, only because of *love*.

    Steve

  134. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thank you David, and thank you Tracy (whose comment I earlier missed) for your responses. I appreciate your thoughtful engagement. I was away on a short mission to help someone get started in a new ministry. I am still struck by the notion that advancing the kingdom of God calls for us to know what we believe– as bubbles put it earlier, studying the real, not the counterfeit. Perhaps for me, I think the body of Christ does need at least a little bit of warning lest it br distracted by a creeping ecumenical slide into one world religion. In my “day job” I work with people who are freely giving their time, money, and energy into helping others. But they do not know Christ and have no “use” for Him. They believe their ethical and moral character raises them far above the average Christian. It is a form of self-righteousness, I think, but it can look like “love,” when you only measure their personal sacrifice. The problem, though, is that none of us can ever prsonally sacrifice what Jesus sacrificed — so the true measure of what we do, even our most loving, sacrificial acts, must be evaluated through the lens of Jesus. Must we show the love of Christ to everyone in every station? Of course. But we really do have to “know whom we have believed,”because our Jesus did not have to die on a cross just for people to have the ability to help each other out. Many non-believers do a good job of that every day. We must care about eternal consequences more, I think. We need to pray for the nations, a rich harvest, the souls of people. Gotta go. Thanks for listening.

  135. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Well Bill,

    This is going to be some book you are writing and I look forward to reading it.
    You have explained so well what I was trying to get across earlier when talking about “the old days” when everyone went to church regardless of their relationship with Jesus because if you did not attend church you were considered “worldly” and an outcast.
    I have lost my rag here several times because my political thinking is so different to the way christians are meant to think, especially you lot in the USA who are anti most everything that does not conform to the right wing christian way of life.
    What you said earlier is so true …….

    “The world truly doesn’t need any more opinions from Christians. The world needs Christians to BE Christians — selfless, loving, giving, and passionately driven to make the world a better place. Not because we believe, in a Dominion-theology sort of way, that we can bring the kingdom to earth. But because we are charged with the souls of all living creatures. We can either spend our time debating the evils of Harry Potter (or the meaning of the word love), or we can feed, clothe, and love people.”

    One of my favourite scriptures, Isaiah 58: is all about the true fast of caring for, clothing, feeding and loving one another.
    It states that when we do this we will be seen as people who can do anything and be able to rebuild anew from the rubble of past lives. (reads good in the message bible)
    That’s what I meant by looking up. In reality we are looking out to others, looking out for others, putting self last and others first.
    I am so often put off by the dogmatism of christians.
    We are talking here about being comfortable in our own skins. I am very comfortable with who I am now and with how Jesus sees me. I have very liberal politics, can see both sides of the abortion argument and would not tell anyone which way to think or act. I have homosexual “love” feelings and I enjoy chatting and having a drink with my friends in the pub. I get vibes from “christians” who tut occasionally but Jesus has never condemned me, always loved me, always been there no matter what.
    And He has told me to be the same as Him. Not the easiest thing to be.
    Always loving, never condemning, always there no matter what the other person does or is.
    Feed the hungry, give shelter to the homeless, clothe those who are cold.
    That is what He does for us, do likewise and He will honour it by blessing both you and the person in need.

    Bob

  136. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Garry, you asked “do we need to be christian to have agape love?”

    My answer would be no!

    Just thinking of the parable of the good Samaritan.
    He loved without question and did all the things as laid out in Isaiah 58:
    He did not preach, quote scripture, just provided for an obvious need and helped a fellow traveler.
    Anyone of us can do that for a neighbour, with or without Christ.
    The same as the parable of the two sons, one said he would do the task and didn’t, the other said no and did.
    So no matter how many times we say yes to Jesus, if we don’t act and do as He says then we are not showing or acting in Love.

  137. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… what a great question, although it was loaded, and my answer will be as well.
    I would first enjoy and need the love of my parents who raised me. Then, I would need the love of my siblings who I lived with and loved in return. All a natural set of events baring any mental disorders or other deviations of a fallen spirit or nature, where incest, rape, murder, and crimes of passion against even ones god-given family can occur.
    But, if denied those elemental natural family loving things, and unfortunately many today are denied them, whether Christian or not, those things are not guaranteed, promised, or always delivered.
    So, the Love of God is my first choice, my first love, because He has promised it, and delivered it, and when I needed it most. He has never failed me!
    Asking if His love, or if He is showing a Christian love or not is mute, compared to the life experience of knowing His Blessings and Love, and that He has already poured them into my life. None compare, none ever will.
    All the other loves of mankind or wonderful indeed and a gift from God, but temporary at best, and His Love is the Unconditional Love, the Agape Love, the Eternal Embrace of Heaven, so it can not be compared.
    Sorry, if I did not answer your question directly, but you did set it up rather well!
    In my now beloved experience, Gary

  138. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… thanks for sharing how easy, yet complicated our ideals of love can be, with each having a unique element of life experience wrapped within them.
    You experienced a very worthy dream, and an undeniable truth about being resposible for the love we each have now, and the greater love we can attain.
    You again, have forever blessed us. Gary

  139. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    Stopping by to share the great news from Chris, my friend with the employment and house payment woes.

    She sends thanks and love in Christ to all who remembered her in prayer. She felt those prayers — especially in the meeting last week where she was offered full-time work doing exactly what she has prayed to be sent to do: launch a new fellowship in an urban neighborhood! Hallelujah! So grateful for your faithfulness, BTA friends. Chris sends greetings of Shalom.

    Blessings & Thanks Again,
    Maru

    PS Sorry to be entirely off-topic!

  140. poohpity says:

    Jesus said, “what good is it to love those who love you even the pagans do that” in other words everybody has the capacity to love especially to those who return it. But to love those who hate you or that treat you bad or persecute you or disagree with you or do not see things the way you do or are different then on top of that “to know” it is because of the Spirit who lives in you and give Him the Glory. That seems to be the difference in God’s love and the love of man.

    Having the Spirit live within you it is not only how you love, it is also how you suffer, what you do when you get angry, how you react to people and then who gets the credit for it. Are you patient, kind, good, loving, forgiving with those who you may not feel deserve it? That seems to be the way Christ dealt with us.

  141. oneg2dblu says:

    Funny how God can come into your life and change that one way road to destruction you “were” on, into a two way street, where you can now choose to go either way!

    Then, when you get to really know Him, and how much He loves you, you love Him.
    When you truly love Him ,you also want to Obey Him, that’s how He measures our love for Him.
    So, if you really Obey Him, then doesn’t your road become again turned into Only One Way? “Following Him!”

    We are then living a new life and on a new path where we enjoy God’s Grace, learn from our mistakes, our wrong choices, plus the mistakes of other’s as well,
    and we can expect and allow God to redeem all the wrong choices we have made.

    Here’s it is in a nutshell, “To know Him and Obey Him, is to make Him known!”

    I’m sharing part of a recent teaching which is based on biblical principles, and whether we like to hear them preached to us or not, depends on where we are and who we will allow to teach us and direct us.

    If we are following Christ, then aren’t we exactly where God wants us to be?

    The choice is always ours to make. Gary

  142. cherielyn says:

    Finally got caught up on reading all the posts. So many good ones that have been a blessing to me.

    maru – PTL for prayers answered regarding Chris’ situation. Praying that God will also bless in her housing situation.

    Thank you all, for prayers for my son. He was doing better for a couple days and now seems to have relapsed. Hopefully he won’t get so dehydrated that he starts having hallucinations again.

    Please pray for a friend, Sylvia. She was diagnosed with 3rd stage breast cancer several weeks ago. Started chemo this week.

    Have to shut down. Weather radio just announced an approaching severe thunderstorm. We are at the end of a power line and lightning always seeks the end, so we get more than our share of lightning damage here. We have learned to shut things down & unplug them from sources that the lightning might use as a path to damage them.

  143. poohpity says:

    cherielyn, grieving along with you as your son goes through his struggles and praying for a full recovery while you cling to the Lord for His peace and strength. Also lifting Sylvia up to overcome the effects of chemo and the challenges she is facing.

    Maru, praising God for the news about Chris.

    Bob, continuing to pray for Tom.

  144. poohpity says:

    To me the idea of being comfortable in our own skin to the Body of Christ means;
    (From Truthnetwork)

    “I am a Christian”

    When I say “I am a Christian”, I am not shouting that “I am clean living”. I am whispering “I was lost, but now I am found and forgiven”.

    When I say “I am a Christian”, I do not speak of this with pride, I’m confessing that I stumble and need Christ to be my guide.

    When I say “I am a Christian”, I’m not trying to be strong. I’m professing that I am weak and need His strength to carry on.

    When I say “I am a Christian”, I’m not bragging of success. I’m admitting I have failed and need God to clean my mess.

    When I say “I am a Christian”, I’m not claiming to be perfect. My flaws are to visible, but God believes I am worth it.

    When I say “I am a Christian’, I still feel the sting of pain. I have my share of heartaches, so I call upon His name.

    When I say “I am a Christian”, I’m not holier than thou. I ‘m just a simple sinner who received God’s good grace, somehow!

  145. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Pooh,

    Thank you for praying for Tom, he is a good friend of mine and I love him!

    Bob

  146. poohpity says:

    Your welcome, it is my pleasure. How is he doing? Are you enjoying your furry, fluffy friend?

  147. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Deb,

    I love you to, enough to ask you to not be so critical of Gary!

    Bob

  148. poohpity says:

    The dog I mean, I know you enjoy your cat.

  149. poohpity says:

    Did it sound like criticism? If that is how it seems I will not ask questions any more. I had already decided not to respond to anything other than the topic. I kept rereading my replies and did not feel like I was being critical or negative but I was questioning inconsistencies but per your one comment, Bob, about leaving things to God I heeded that wisdom.

    I apologize to you Gary if it was taken as criticism. It was not meant like that in anyway nor does it diminish my care for you.

  150. poohpity says:

    It was felt more like confusion on my part but it may have not come out that way in my wording.

  151. davids says:

    I wouldn’t worry about that, Deb. Seems to be a misunderstanding.

    Thanks for sharing, “I am a Christian”. It’s a wonderful take on being comfortable in our own skin.

  152. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob… your Good Samaritain example was a great choice.
    Perfect actually, a totally loving response to a needy stranger with no anticipation of any return other than how it made him feel to help the needy.
    He did the right thing but do we know his motive?
    Did he do it because of the person he was, or because it was taught to him as an expected protocol for Samariains during that time?
    I was just thinking…
    Do you think God will grant him, a Samaritain, salvation for his good works alone? Gary

  153. oneg2dblu says:

    Deb… I will accept your offer. I applaud your heartfelt concern for all others, accept any and all that you bring to the table here, and please know you are loved. Thank you!
    I really like that, “I am Christian,” its very topical, and hits many strong points. Thanks for sharing it.
    Here’s a few of my own…
    “I am a Christian,” because of Christ, what he did for the world, what he did for the lost, what he did for all sinners, and what He did for me. He has called by name, He to me is the Great I AM, and I am His. “Jesus knows me, this I love, and that makes me a “Christian!”
    Gary

  154. oneg2dblu says:

    Agape Love… I’m thinking it must be an achievable human attribute of the highest attainable degree as a God-like love that even we, common man, can display.

    Instead of the Good Samarian showing unconditional love, how about the love of a mother for her child? Isn’t that an innate character of motherhood?

    Even in nature, a mother bear is so beholding and protective of her young that the most aggressive male would not bother to come between her and her cubs.
    He instinctively knows she would gladly fight to the death to protect them!
    What greater love is there than that, and she only has animal instincts…and those instincts come from the One who created her. They represent unconditional love for her offspring.

    I think we are on to something, and we could say it is not a Christian only attribute, but a human condition of caring for others without counting the cost, or expecting a return.

    But, I may be wrong, because I have no way of knowing if that Samaritan didn’t first know God. Any thoughts on that? Gary

  155. oneg2dblu says:

    AGAPE lOVE… IS NOT A NORMAL CHARACTERISTIC OF OUR FALLEN SIN NATURE, IT IS A LOVE THAT WE CAN HAVE THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT GOD DEPOSITS IN HIS BELIEVERS.
    THE LOVE OF A MOTHER FOR HER CHILD IS STORGE LOVE, FAMILY LOVE,NOT AGAPE.
    THE GOOD SAMARITAN HAD COMPASSION AND GAVE SACRIFICIAL LOVE TO THE STRANGER EXPECTING NO RETURN AND CHRIST USED IT AS AN EXAMPLE. BUT IF WE ALSO CONSIDER THAT THIS STRANGER WAS A JEW, and Jews hated Samarians we are talking about more than just compassion, but the Samaritan
    would not have to give his life for that Jew.
    What Christ displayed on the cross was Agsape Love for us.
    What God gave up for us in His Son, is Agape Love.
    and God still loved us while we were still sinners!
    Pooh was right on, when we can love those who hate us,
    it is not of our nature, but God’s. That is a
    God-given Agape type of Love, but would we give up our life for someone who hates us?
    Now, that is the most powerful example of Agape Love.

  156. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Just woken up by the dog barking at the milkman (my neighbour still has milk delivered to her door most days, a peculiar British thing from our past) 7am here.

    Anyway I am taken by the thread since my comment last night.
    Gary, you have raised such good questions.
    It is difficult to know how much of our behavior is due to “free will” and how much is “genetic instinct”.
    All mothers of any species loves their children to a point of death, (even earwigs nurture and clean their eggs for a year before they hatch). We just had an example of that here in Wales this week. A van driver went berserk and started running over pedestrians on the streets of Cardiff. He knocked down over 20 women and children and killed one mother outright. Before the van hit her she managed to push all her children out of the way but in doing so was too late to save herself. That action, though based in love, must have been an inbuilt instinctive reaction to a situation where there must have been little or no time to think of what to do.
    Maybe that is how we are to become in Christ.
    Have His thoughts & Knowledge so embedded in our hearts that everything we do becomes instinctive, without thought!

    Another point you raised Gary… “What God gave up for us in His Son, is Agape Love.
    and God still loved us while we were still sinners!
    Pooh was right on, when we can love those who hate us,
    it is not of our nature, but God’s. That is a
    God-given Agape type of Love, but would we give up our life for someone who hates us?
    Now, that is the most powerful example of Agape Love.”

    That made me think of all those solders in Afghanistan.
    I don’t know how many the USA are loosing but we have about two deaths a week, mainly due to attacks but some due to the Afghans being trained turning on their teachers.
    Is this Agape Love when you are willing to die for the peace of someone else’s nation?
    Both the USA, Russia, Great Britain & many others know the cost of freedom and that the “liberated” often turn on the “liberator”, The Libyan embassy attack being a recent example.

    bob

  157. foreverblessed says:

    All good questions, I agree Bob, that the real agape love is love from Heaven God’s love, that’s we why we eat from the tree of Life, and not from the tree of good and evil, we have our being filled with Life from above, totally unselfish love.
    Gary asked if someone is given salvation because of good acts? I see this in the following way: God sees at the heart of the Samaritan, and sees a person who cares for the lost, He sees an attitude which is also in Christ, and then God thinks: this person who already is showing some of the love in his heart, how can I withhold him my Life. I will offer Him the choice to choose for me through Jesus. Because nobobody can go to the Father other than through the Son John 14:6. But it is God’s to offer this choice, John 6:65.
    To a person who is totally selfish, and looking only for his own good, God would not want to offer such choice but would maybe have some crisis coming over him so he will come to his senses and see his selfishness.
    It is God’s work in His Kingdom, and I would like to follow His lead.
    If we are christians we are following Christ, and more and more of His mind should grow in us Philippians 2:5-6,7-8
    (Gary, thanks for commenting on my story, sometimes you share something very personal, and when nobody gives a reaction, it is a good test for my own old self, my old self is to die, and not feeling hurt, and feeling neglected and unheard in the crowd. It is good to join a blog like this, it is showing our deep parts in our selves, and not all is totally Jesus’ attitude yet. I am striving for that, but still see a lot of my own old self. Luckily God is happy with the striving and not with missing the mark, as I see the missing of the perfect Jesus in me, and feel unworthy. I think that that is what God is talking about the eye being lamp in me, Matthew 6:22 , if eye, that is the desire to go after Jesus, is light then my whole being is light, as long as my desire is on Jesus we are on the way. Just as with ball games, look at where you aim your shot, and that’s where the ball will go).

  158. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob… as a Soldier you are bound, and are under oath, to uphold and adhere to certain sworn covenenants for your country, and its people. Your life is expendable and given when asked for the greater good of protecting your fellow countrymen and your country.
    So, that is not in my opinion, a God-given love right, but a soldeir’s obligation if he is commissioned position to due his duty, it is his job!
    Although, is this country, So Help Me God, may well be part of that commission, I do not believe it is the Agape form of Love, because a soldeir could be addressing many other things and more, like the Honor to Serve, or following a family tradition, or even obeying the Law, as in the Military Draft.
    All Israeli children today know they will be asked to serve in the Military sometime in their lives, but their country has placed them in that position, and perhas not their obilgation to God!
    I feel the Holy Spirit is the driving factor, and God the Source, when one displays His Agape Love.
    It places our humanity on His Level, Loving becuase it is His Will and Character. and He has no opposing Sin Nature to overcome or address as it is natural to Him.
    Prayers from across the Pond!
    Gary

  159. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob… from an earlier post 10-24,10:13 you wrote: “There is no need to preach, no need to quote scripture, no need to judge, just a need to love without question and leave the rest to God.”
    Great heartfelt truth, and many will love you for it, including God. But as A Christian, there is more, as we also have been Commanded, we are given the Great Commission!
    One represents the highest ideal of how to live your life, and the other to display the “Works of God” received by, “All Who Will Obey and Follow!”
    Not to take away from what you have said, but only to add to it even more, the need to see, the lasting Eternal Salvation of others, presented throughout the entire world by us, spreading “The Gospel Message!”
    Gary

  160. oneg2dblu says:

    Just a thought….In the Good Samaritan story, none of those present were given the Gospel Message, but we have to carry it daily, because we are Christians.
    So, that makes helping others take on another whole element, it makes an eternal difference… Gary

  161. oneg2dblu says:

    “Feed My Sheep,” is more than giving the starving person a peice of fish, the naked a peice of cloth, or the homeless a roof for the night, or extending the helping hand of love, All those are blessings of compassion for sure. But, even deeper longer and more lasting, is the feeding of their Eternal Soul, through sharing the Gosple Message as well. Gary

  162. poohpity says:

    foreverblessed, The comment you made about feeling hurt and neglected when someone does not reply to something said. I think that is a very good example why the comment guidelines are in place to prevent things like that from happening.

  163. poohpity says:

    Whether it is old self or new that can hurt. Because we are a new creation in Christ does not stop us from feeling the pains of this life it stops us from holding a grudge and being slow to anger rather offering forgiveness, grace and mercy to those who may have offended us.

  164. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Gary,

    I think that is the point about Love, if you give love as apposed to showing love then there is no need to preach the gospel as it will just appear out of nowhere because Jesus will be in the middle of it.

    Just a thought

    Bob

  165. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Lift Jesus higher, on that pole, on that cross, how? by loving one another and our neighbour as ourselves.

    Oh, I forgot, Love the Lord your God with everything you have first!

  166. Bill says:

    Once again, we’re sitting around debating love — who has it, who receives it, how it’s received, what we say when we’re showing it, etc.

    While we’re debating love, there’s a world of hurting people who need love.

    I think Bob (October 26, 2012 at 2:14 pm) is onto something, something critical.

    @Gary, you wrote (October 26, 2012 at 9:26 am):

    “Feed My Sheep,” is more than giving the starving person a peice of fish, the naked a peice of cloth, or the homeless a roof for the night, or extending the helping hand of love, All those are blessings of compassion for sure. But, even deeper longer and more lasting, is the feeding of their Eternal Soul, through sharing the Gosple Message as well.

    _________

    How many times in the New Testament do you read that Jesus separated the “Gospel” from his actions of feeding, clothing, and healing? For that matter, when Jesus did open his mouth to deliver a message, wasn’t his message about how we treat each other, rather than, “Now, here are the words you have to say to be saved”?

    I believe what we think of the Gospel is radically different from the Gospel of the Bible. I think we’ve codified it into a paragraph that we tell people to say, expecting that they’ll be saved from that moment onward. I believe we’re in serious error.

    In other words…

    Jesus didn’t preach the Gospel. Jesus WAS the Gospel!

    His actions were the Gospel. Everything he said and did was the Gospel.

    Love is the Gospel. Feeding and clothing and healing is the Gospel. Standing up for “the least of these” is the Gospel. Jesus’ entire life embodied the Gospel, from birth to death.

    The Good News is that Jesus was born and crucified for our sins. What He demonstrated during those years showed us what the Gospel looks like when we’re free from the guilt and shame our sins. If it did not, what would be the point of all those parables and accounts of what Jesus said and did? Wouldn’t the New Testament be the length of the “Sinner’s Prayer,” roughly one paragraph?

    I believe the New Testament exists to show us what kind of life we should lead as Christians. I believe the Gospel is Jesus. I believe his life, words, and actions were the Gospel lived out on this earth. I believe we are “saved” when we do as Jesus did, and abide by his words — especially loving our neighbors as ourselves, and the “Lord your God” (as Bob noted above) first and foremost.

    I don’t know. Maybe I’m full of it. Maybe I haven’t a clue what I’m talking about. And maybe I’m getting discouraged by constant theological debates.

    As Steve Camp once sung, “It’s a dying world.”

    And it’s not getting any more alive as we sit here typing.

    Bill

    P.S. Please forgive my discouraged tone in this post. I’m feeling a little out of sorts today. The unfolding facts regarding what happened to our ambassador and three other Americans in Benghazi is really getting me down. It is unconscionable for a U.S. President (or someone under his command) to order military personnel to stand down at least twice as they (and everyone in the White House) watched the seven-hour siege in real time, doing nothing to save those fighting for their lives. We had help within an hour or so away, likely enough help within sight of our consulate. But the order from the White House was to stand down, do nothing.

    Then, on top of that heinous act, the subsequent lies and coverups are really depressing me. I want someone in the White House — Obama himself — to tell us why help was told to stand down. It was a seven-hour siege! Four Americans fought for their lives, waiting for help that never came.

    I can’t get my head around that. When I heard the father of one of the slain Navy SEALs talk about what happened, it broke my heart. I am still in tears over this. My heart is heavy. So my tone probably isn’t up to usual standards. I apologize.

  167. oneg2dblu says:

    I am a little surprised about the attack on the Gospel Message, or the Great Commission. Anyone can love others, the Devil loves a good liar. But not everyone has the Gospel Message, so not everyone is commanded to go and make disciples, unless you are a Christ Following Christian.
    Avoiding those truths to me is disobedience to the Word of God, which today, even hearing His Name seems to be wearing people thin also, go figure.
    I guess if one has personal fundamental problems with the word of God, conflicts because they will not conform to it, or be changed by it, then a little touch of disobedience here and there doesn’t seem to matter much to them either, especially if you can’t get the basics under control, why bother with the rest.
    Pagan’s can feed the hungry, and they do. Pagans can cloth the needy and they do. They can also offer a room, and they do. But, they can not give the Gospel Message any life. They can not believe it for even themselves.
    But that is my problem, I like the guardrails, I cherish the Commandments and the Law, for it reminds me of where I came from, outside those things, and why I’m here now, and that I’ve been changed through Grace and Obedience. But, I’m Old School… Reading, Writing,and Repentance, was taught to me. Gary

  168. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thank you Claudia. My prayers for you, too, and everyone in the path of this storm. I pray it change course altogether and head out to sea!

  169. davids says:

    Bill, I try to keep politics out of this blog, but it is clear that you are distressed by what you are hearing.

    In fact, there is a lot we do not know about what happened in Bengazi. This is high election season so the lies, distortions, and emotional tugs have been strong on both sides.

    There have been many distressing events in the past: Viet-nam war, the Iran hostage crisis, Iran-Contra, 9-11, the Irag war. But we must not let them distract us from the bigger picture. Politics, like ecumenical arguements, divide us and do not bring us closer to eternal truths or further God’s Kingdom.

  170. davids says:

    Prayers to those in the path of this storm.

  171. davids says:

    Gary, you wrote:
    “I am a little surprised about the attack on the Gospel Message, or the Great Commission. Anyone can love others, the Devil loves a good liar. But not everyone has the Gospel Message, so not everyone is commanded to go and make disciples, unless you are a Christ Following Christian.”

    Yes, I understand that and believe that, and I suspect that many here do too.

    I am going off-topic, but we have already veered many times off-topic while Mart has been away these days, and if we have done it respectfully, maybe that’s okay.

    Gary, in many ways I very much agree with you that as Christians we should follow God’s desire as expressed through Jesus Christ and the New Testament. As a Christian, I not only should, but I want to do that.

    My wife is not a believer. There are also many people that have not heard the word of God. My question is this: When someone dies, will the all-Merciful God send them straight to Hell, or will He give that person the final chance to understand His Glory and His Love and His Sacrifice before the judgement?

    I cannot answer that. I can only say that my attempts at obedience are based on love of Him, not on obligation.

  172. Bill says:

    @david, your question was, in part, the basis for Rob Bell’s book Love Wins.

    The answer to your question, from the traditional interpretation of the Bible, is hell. An unsaved person, according to the Bible, goes to hell.

    However, the human response, given the parameters you noted above (“all-Merciful” and “His Love”) may provide another answer entirely.

    I hate to sound like someone “attacking” traditional beliefs, but what if we haven’t really understood what the cross accomplished? What if our neat-and-tidy interpretation of love, salvation, redemption, and the penalty Jesus paid on the cross missed the mark? What if God’s love is bigger than we think?

    Who goes to hell is a topic that is being explored in greater depth, with fresher eyes, these days. If you haven’t yet read it, I suggest giving Rob Bell’s book a try.

    Ultimately, I think the only answer we can utter with complete confidence is, “We don’t know.” We don’t know what God will do after a person dies. That’s up to God.

  173. bubbles says:

    I do not need to “read” what another man thinks God is saying. . . we have the inspired, infalliable word of the living God to tell us what happens to unbelievers when they die, and to Christians when they die. The notion that hell is not a place for unbelievers and Satan is a lie straight from the pit of hell.
    I do not wish hell for anyone, but God is also a holy God, and we need to see Him for ALL of who He is, not just the love part.

  174. kingdomkid7 says:

    I must say Amen, bubbles. Why do we pretend we don’t know what the Bible says? I have about one hundred family members I am praying for, because they are not saved. Our wishes do not change God’s word. He stays holy when we are not. No, We can not fathom the depths of his mercy, but we do know what He has said about salvation, heaven and hell. And we know He is good. We can trust Him to be good.
    Some time ago, Mart gave us an excerpt of a book by Mark Galli who is a senior editor of Christianity Today magazine. Galli’s book is called “God Wins: Heaven, Hell, and Why the Good News is Better than Love Wins.”For all those who are swayed by Rob Bell’s “Love Wins,” you must read the thoughtful, respectful, scripturally-based response in “God Wins.”Bell’s ideas will will make us feel good, but it really is not about us.

  175. Bill says:

    I’ve read Galli’s book. I own a copy of it.

    What you guys seem to forget is that both Galli and Bell are authors. They are not God. Their books are not holy writ. Whatever they write is their opinion, regardless of what it’s based on or how much scripture they quote — or don’t quote. Just because you happen to agree with one author over another does not mean he’s any more right than the author you don’t agree with.

    There’s not a person here on the BTA blog who hasn’t been influenced by something and/or someone other than the Bible. Any sermon you’ve ever attended, any “teaching tape” you’ve ever heard, any Sunday School class you’ve ever been in, any Bible study group you’ve ever been part of, any women’s or men’s ministry…even the translation of the Bible one uses (and does it have study notes?) influences what you believe about the Bible.

    It’s all based on someone’s doctrinal opinion of what the Bible says. That’s why nearly everybody here has a different opinion of what’s right and wrong — and why there are so many clashes.

  176. kingdomkid7 says:

    With all due respect,Bill, I’d say your post recommending that we all read the Bell book required a response, and that’s what you got. I am more than happy to drop the subject now. Reasonable minds may differ on things, but we should all feel free to give a little bit of “pushback” as long as it is done respectfully. I do respect you immensely. but I do not agree with you on Rob Bell.

  177. cherielyn says:

    The reason that I mostly adhere to the KJV is because it is the most enduring tried and true translation. Yes, for some it may be hard to understand with the thee, thou, ye, etc., but once a person understands what those words mean, it really isn’t hard to follow at all.

    If the Bible is read, LITERALLY, word for word, it gives all the answers we will ever need for whatever situations they (the texts involved) apply to.

    The notes in a study Bible are someone’s opinion as well as all the books ABOUT the Bible. God’s Word is NOT His opinion. God’s Word ALONE, is the measuring stick for who goes to heaven and who goes to hell or whatever subjects may be the theme of the various verses, passages and books. GOD SAID IT, THAT SETTLES IT!

  178. Bill says:

    I don’t care about “pushback,” kingdomkid, because I’ve made it clear from Day One that I only post opinions, and that people are free to disagree with what I write.

    I’ve also stated that I love a good debate.

    But that wasn’t a debate. It was me suggesting a book and then you and Bubbles telling me it was wrong of me to even suggest such a book. Or any book at all, for that matter, because we have “…the inspired, infalliable word of the living God” why do we need authors?

    That’s not a debate, nor even a discussion. Just the opposite.

    You don’t even know what I think of Rob Bell. Or his books. But you assumed that just because I suggested someone read it that I must, therefore, agree with it 100%.

    I read as much as I possibly can — all sorts of books, from all sorts of authors…even some I disagree with. Why? So that I can cite references and/or discuss just about any topic.

    Therefore, that’s one thing you will never, ever see me post: a stern reprimand telling you or anyone else not to read — or even discuss — a book just because I don’t personally agree with it.

    I am always — and I do mean that: always — up for a great discussion. I’m open to people disagreeing with me. No one hear should ever worry about offending me or hurting my feelings simply by disagreeing with me. That’s not how I roll.

  179. Bill says:

    By the way, Cherilyn, I absolutely love the KJV. That’s the version I always go back to — even though I like reading the ESV for its flow and solid adherence to the source scriptures. There’s something to be said for a Bible version that’s been around for 400 years!

  180. phpatato says:

    Gary, Ray, KingdomKid, Della, Steve, Saled in Maine, Claudia, Narrow and everyone else who lives along the Eastern Seaboard please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you. This storm is being spoken of as a possible Perfect Storm (as in the movie) according to a local weatherman in St. John’s Newfoundland. Batten down and Be Safe! It is highly possbile that the hydro will be out. Please, if you are able to, keep in touch.

    May God keep you safely tucked inside His arms.

    Bill, I’ll be praying for you tonight as well. I wish I lived close enough to give you a big hug in person. I wish you a brighter day tomorrow.

    Pat xoxo

  181. bubbles says:

    So, if I pick up a book and begin reading it, and the author does not align himself/herself with the Word of God, it’s pointless to read it. Authors who doubt what God says or try to put doubt in the readers’ minds are false teachers.

    Again, why read the false things when we have the true Word of God. If we know the truth, the false will stand out. We don’t need to play around with the false to “understand” it better. Knowing the truth and being grounded in the Word will help us understand the false.
    Why waste time reading false teachings when we could spend it in the Word?

  182. kingdomkid7 says:

    Bill, you are ordinarily accurate in your re-telling of the conversation. Here, you have made a little mistake in suggesting that — speaking only for myself — I said you were “wrong.” Wrong is such a strong word and I don’t see where I ever used it. I believe in free speech, with very few exceptions that are not relevant here. Opinions are not right or wrong to me. The solution for opinions that I don’t agree with is to offer my own, so that’s all that happened. You recommended a book. I recommended a book that critiques the book you recommended. So please understand you were not being chastised for your view, nor could i ever purpoet to k now your view better than you know it I was simply offering a different opinion and a different book to read. It’s Ok to do that here, isn’t it?

  183. kingdomkid7 says:

    That should be “purport to know”. Sorry!

  184. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thanks for the prayers, Pat. We are all praying for each other on this!

  185. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Just a quick comment as it is 7am here and I am off to work.

    Bill, I have not seen any reporting here of your political cover ups regarding the Benghazi embassy attack.
    It does seem strange nothing was done if the attack was a long and protracted event. We have lots of political cover ups here and their gradual reveal always causes harm & hurt to those involved.

    This “Preaching the Gospel” thing as apposed to “Love” etc.
    I know from my own experience that trying to just preach the gospel by itself often causes offence and the last thing a hurting person wants is a “Jesus saves and died for you” scripture shoved in their face when they are at their lowest.
    Just remember Job & his comforters telling him it was all his fault etc.
    What people need is what Bill often has stated, people need someone to just love them, put an arm around them, empathize with them. Then they will wonder who is this person that is helping. Then they will wonder where the strength & love comes from.
    Most people have a motive in helping others, if we are only helping to preach the gospel then we will be seen for what we are and be rejected.
    If we have no motive other than compassion and are a caring loving person, then we will be accepted as we are genuine, then, and only then, will the gospel be received with an open heart as the Holy Spirit leads.

    Bob

  186. foreverblessed says:

    Amen Bob!
    Love is the basis of all, real love, the love of God.
    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoso beliefs in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
    And everything we are and do should be based on that love. God wants us to love Him, trust Him fully, and we can because He first loved us. 1 John 4:19, Rev 1:5.

  187. foreverblessed says:

    The Sandy Hurricane did not hit Florida, that is good news! I am praying for you all. Now especially for those who live in the region of New York.

  188. oneg2dblu says:

    Dear Family… Thanks to all for your prayers, Florida has encountered higher winds and rain but minimal damage and no loss of life that I have heard of. Praise God! Gary

  189. oneg2dblu says:

    Davids… please know this, I will start today to pray for your wife. “Today is the day of Salvation,” those words were from Christ, according to the Word of God.
    May today ring true for her salvation in Him as well, and to God be the Glory!
    To answer your question posted 10/26 7:22, like you, my answer is based on the Love of Him, not on obligation.

    I beleive the Great Commission is given to every believer.
    I believe a Christian husband is to be the leader of his household.
    He is to project and share with them Jesus Christ, and His Gospel Message.
    I believe you have done such, and your wife has made her own free will choice, to remain as an unbeliever.

    How will God receive that choice is only His to decide.

    I know His character has both Love and Wrath, and which one, or combination of those, your wife will receive due to her unbelief will be His Justice!
    I know we who are believers now, were first unbelieving as well, because that it is our default position.

    God alone has called us out of our unbelief.

    God desires that none should perish, that all be changed, and that all will come to Him, when called to their Salvation!
    He will never force that decision upon us, He is a gentleman.
    But, All will face the Day of His Judgement, on that day I want to be on His side!
    Matthew 10:28 NIV
    “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.”

    I beleive that the saved go to Heaven, and I just happen to believe, as Christ mentioned many times, there is also a place called Hell! Gary

  190. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… 10/26 7:46 We don’t know, we don’t know?
    I would say we don’t yet know everything!
    What about what we do know, by what is written?
    Do we then dismiss the entire bible, its message, and its teachings that have changed the world, and now support only the unseen, unwritten, and unspoken?
    Perhaps, that stuff is just fine for those who do not like how, what is now written fits them, and what, they now want to see in spite of it.
    Looking for another truth, another hope, another possibility, another dream, another reality?
    Where do we then look?
    Just a thought… Gary

  191. oneg2dblu says:

    Did you know that I heard somewhere that you can’t get your doctrine from the side notes, commentaries, teachings of others, Chrsitian themed books, tapes, classes, schools of thought, or any paraphase. You must get it directly from the Word of God, if it is to be without blemish, worthy, and alighned with God’s immeasueable truth, as Christ himself even quoted,”It is Written,” and it better be written in the Word of God if your doctrine supports it.”
    I think I read that in a phamplet, or heard it in some teaching, but it sounded so good I still beleived it!
    Gary

  192. oneg2dblu says:

    After all… as my Pastor teaches, and I believe as well, the Great Commission is not the great suggestion, even if others here seem to suggest otherwise. Gary

  193. davids says:

    Thanks, Gary.

  194. Bill says:

    Hi All!

    I’ve appreciated everyone’s posts. I read them, gave them the consideration they’re due, and thought about some things that have bothered me for decades.

    Maybe wiser minds than mine here can help me with my questions. I know I’ve come up short for answers in spite of all the time I’ve spent pondering them.

    Here’s what I mean…

    Gary wrote (October 27, 2012 at 11:22 am):

    “What about what we do know, by what is written?

    “Do we then dismiss the entire bible, its message, and its teachings that have changed the world, and now support only the unseen, unwritten, and unspoken?
    Perhaps, that stuff is just fine for those who do not like how, what is now written fits them, and what, they now want to see in spite of it.”

    Gary wrote (October 27, 2012 at 12:29 pm):

    “…the Great Commission is not the great suggestion, even if others here seem to suggest otherwise.”

    cherielyn wrote (October 26, 2012 at 9:35 pm):

    “If the Bible is read, LITERALLY, word for word, it gives all the answers we will ever need for whatever situations they (the texts involved) apply to.”

    ________

    I get all that. And I’m not suggestion that the Great Commission is a “suggestion.” Nor am I suggesting that the Bible should not be read “LITERALLY.”

    However…

    I do have a question that I hope someone here can help me with:

    How do we know when to take the bible “literally” and when to ignore it?

    I’d like you to consider that all of us ignore certain passage of the Bible every single day — even though many here advocate reading the Bible literally and following exactly what it says — to the letter.

    Here’s what I mean:

    * Putting homosexuals to death

    “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.”(Leviticus 20:13 ESV)

    * Putting witches and wizards to death

    “A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”(Leviticus 20:27 ESV)

    * Putting children to death who strike mom or dad

    “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.” (Exodus 21:15 ESV)

    * Putting children to death who curse parents

    “For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.” (Leviticus 20:9 ESV)

    * Putting adulterers to death

    “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.” (Leviticus 20:10 ESV)

    * Putting to death those who do not seek the Lord

    “And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.” (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 ESV)

    * Putting to death young women who are not virgins on their wedding night

    “But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.”(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 ESV)

    Now, I don’t know about you. But I have never put a gay person to death, or stoned an adulterer, or killed a witch or wizard.

    Have you?

    If not, why not? Those are clear commands — very, very serious commands — that are found in the same Bible that commands us, as Gary suggests, to follow the Great Commission.

    Why don’t we abide by the Lord’s clear commands in the Old Testament the way we do in the New Testament?

    If you say that the New Testament wipes out the Old Testament, in effect replacing it, please show me verses that say that. Because I can’t find them.

    What I do find are verses like this:

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 ESV)

    NOTE: Jesus did not say the laws and commands to stone or burn or kill were “abolished.” That means they are still in full effect.

    “…but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” (John 8:1-11 ESV)

    NOTE: Jesus did not say adultery was not a stoning offense (as the law in the Old Testament commands). He took the charge seriously, and knew the woman’s offense was serious enough to warrant death. But Jesus didn’t kill her. Why?

    There appears to me to be something else going on in the Bible, something more than following it “literally.”

    Could it be this:

    “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17 ESV)

    “For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Romans 13:9 ESV)

    Grace, truth, and love (see 1 Corinthians 13:1-13) seem to supersede the law.

    This speaks to what I’ve been trying to explain for months — that Jesus IS the Gospel. He is the summation of everything — all law, all love, all grace, all truth…and that love is the key to it all.

    If I am wrong, then why aren’t we stoning women or killing wizards — or children that strike their parents, for that matter?

    If I am right, then why do we stand on the “literal” wording of the Bible, as though the words themselves are what we must live by — rather than the spirit behind the words…or Jesus’ example of loving others?

    Do you see what I mean?

    In no way, shape, or form am I suggesting the Bible should be ignored. In fact, I am suggesting just the opposite. I am suggesting that the Bible be seen for what it is: Jesus’ story, which begins and ends with LOVE.

    If anyone here can help me understand these questions I have, I’d be much obliged.

    Thanks for your help.

    Bill

  195. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… that was quite a lengthy revelation!
    Quite a struggle within, especially for someone who possess the Holy Spirit!
    I find some of those offenses, or sins, you have quoted in Leviticus, are still to be carried over to the New Testament as well. But, they are now punishable according to the word of God through Paul for one, by rejection from the Kingdom of God for Eternity.
    Which, to me, is the second death!, not the one you’re calling for, done by the stoning of man by the Jews in Leviticus.
    So, your crafty citing of them in the Old Law, in that one place were the Levitical Law was part of the Jewish religious tradition only, and no longer applies to us today, deftly wanes some truth in your argument about not taking the word literally.
    You now having the Holy Spirit within you really are more enlightened than that!
    We do not live with the old dietary laws either, although they were written in the Bible for a certain place and time, and to be taken literally.
    However, The New Testament is also written for a time such as this, and does apply to us today.
    Those who live beyond their first moment of salvation in Christ, will be given the Holy Spirit to help them understand what does, and does not apply to them.
    Those Jews in Leviticus did not possess the Holy Spirit, or have their Salvation through Jesus Christ. But, today we do!
    So, if anyone can help you, the Holy Spirit in you can!

    New Testament Warnings about Unbelief
    Hebrews 3:12, 13, 14
    “See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful,
    unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
    But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

    Then, Hebrews 3:15, 16,17,18,19

    Disobedience and Unbelief sends us to a place of no rest. We will only have His Rest if we turn to God for our answers, and those answers are found in the Word of God, and with the Help of His Holy Spirit.

    Unfortunately, some of us are searching for what can not be found in the here and now!

    If I knew a better way, my brother, or another place to find what you are looking for, I would gladly share it.

    Gary

  196. oneg2dblu says:

    Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, just as you quoted. Perhaps then, when He uses these words found in His New Testament… “Away from me you evil doers,” He then fulfills the Law, that says guilty about the ones who today should be put to death also. Just a thought… Gary

  197. oneg2dblu says:

    Put to death for their Unbelief and Disobedience!

  198. Bill says:

    Hi Gary,

    I’m not sure I understand the implication of some of your word choices. Your reply seems to be condescending and accusative.

    You wrote:

    “Quite a struggle within, especially for someone who possess the Holy Spirit!”

    Are you implying that (a) I don’t have the Holy Spirit within? Or (b) that those who do have the Holy Spirit within never struggle with the Bible’s meaning?

    You wrote:

    “Which, to me, is the second death!, not the one you’re calling for, done by the stoning of man by the Jews in Leviticus.”

    Are you suggesting that I’m “calling for” these deaths? I was merely citing what the Bible states, nothing more or less. I’m not “calling for” anything.

    You wrote:

    “So, your crafty citing of them in the Old Law, in that one place were the Levitical Law was part of the Jewish religious tradition only, and no longer applies to us today, deftly wanes some truth in your argument about not taking the word literally”

    “Crafty”? What do you mean by that? The implication of that word choice is offensive to me.

    “…deftly wanes some truth.” Again, what is your implication by your choice of the word “deftly”? Do you mean that in a positive sense, as in you’re congratulating me on making my point clear? Or is that a pejorative word choice, much like your use of the word “crafty”?

    You wrote:

    “You now having the Holy Spirit within you really are more enlightened than that!”

    Again, are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit within me is different — or lesser — from the Holy Spirit within you? Or that, somehow, Christians do not ever come up against passages in the Bible that seem unclear? Or that I should be more “enlightened,” possibly even as “enlightened” as you are?

    You wrote:

    “Those who live beyond their first moment of salvation in Christ, will be given the Holy Spirit to help them understand what does, and does not apply to them.”

    Do you mean to suggest that Christians always know what the Bible means, and never struggle over the meaning of passages — especially as they apply to us today?

    You wrote:

    “New Testament Warnings about Unbelief
    Hebrews 3:12, 13, 14”

    Are you suggesting that I do not believe? Or that by raising questions and struggling with passages that I am an unbeliever?

    You wrote:

    “Then, Hebrews 3:15, 16,17,18,19

    Disobedience and Unbelief sends us to a place of no rest. We will only have His Rest if we turn to God for our answers, and those answers are found in the Word of God, and with the Help of His Holy Spirit.”

    Again, are you suggesting that I am disobedient or am an unbeliever because I do not have the answers to the questions I’ve pondered for many years?

    You wrote:

    “Unfortunately, some of us are searching for what can not be found in the here and now!”

    Are you suggesting that I should not have questions about the Bible?

    I refuse to believe that you’d use such negative, accusative, and condescending words toward me. That doesn’t seem like you. So I have to be misreading what you wrote. It has to be the medium of print causing a gap in my ability to understand what you’re saying to me.

    If you have time, could you follow up to better explain what you meant? I’d like to understand your teaching better.

    Also, you wrote:

    “I find some of those offenses, or sins, you have quoted in Leviticus, are still to be carried over to the New Testament as well. But, they are now punishable according to the word of God through Paul for one, by rejection from the Kingdom of God for Eternity.”

    That seems like an opinion, to me. Could you cite verses for me so that I can study them as well as you have? That way, I can draw my own conclusions. Also, could you let me know which of the offenses/sins I mentioned from the Old Testament carry over to the New Testament?

    Thank you for your time, Gary. I appreciate it.

    Bill

  199. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… I don’t have the time, the energy, or the power of persuasion to give you any answers that the Holy Spirit in you, who is never powerless, unless we refuse to hear him, is always timely, unless we are too busy doing things our way, and has enough energy that comes directly through God to empower us, if we allow it!

    So, rather than continue to try to lead where you do not want to go, by my words, I have given you the Only Path to Truth that I know, and that comes only from the helping Holy Spirit within you.

    We all can find ugly anywhere we look for it, and we can find answers to that ugly and change it, through looking within to the Holy Spirit.

    It is He, the Holy Spirit that has the Time, Energy, and Power!

    This is the third time I’ve noticed, that you have brought homosexuality into the conversation. That may not merit mentioning, but I have noticed it, and I’m sure others have as well.

    Although you could accuse me of harboring such, you continue to bring it into the light. Just a thought…

    This time, I answered that “one sin question,” as being exposed in the Old, and the New Testament, and both bringing a form of certain death, one through stoning, if the old Law were to be adhered to, and the other separation for Eternity.

    God’s Words, through Paul, not mine.

    We however, are now picking apart my words, so here are my words again to repackage for you what I actually said, not what you want to say you may have heard.

    You ask: “Are you implying that I don’t have the Holy Spirit within?”
    I answer: No! I said, for someone who possesses the Holy Spirit.
    Possession is not the accusation of absence, as you cite.

    You ask: “Those who have the Holy Spirit never struggle with the bibles meaning?”
    I answer: No! It is the Holy Spirit that Helps us to understand the Word of God, Helps us with our struggles. The Holy Spirit does not give us a spirit of helpless, unending, questions, and confusion.

    You say: I am not calling for anything!
    But, you called for an answer, by saying you never killed a homosexual,
    Then asked, “Have any of you?”
    I answer: No! Then, I explained that stoning is not for such a time as this, but the New Testament and its message about your concern about homosexuality is!

    Paul through the Holy Spirit that lived in him, and taught to the churched who were clearly saved at the time, a very well known, but unfortunately and falsely ignored teaching today, found in a list of warnings about those who practice such things, as he taught they will not enter the Kingdom of God!” That to me is a certain death!

    Let’s not compare it to a child, having a child’s mind, and slapping his parent!

    I in my opinion, I have given you clear and precise direction, a direction I believe may come from a closed minded, biblically and scripturally based mind of belief in Paul’s teachings that apply equally to us today.

    But, there is a modern, well endeared, doctrine of thought that says, it does not matter how you live, what you do or profess, you are saved, “No matter what!”

    I disagree with that modern falsely applied doctrine because it nullifies any sin, all sin, even ongoing sin, because living in it, and promoting others to the thinking it is normal to do so, is so popular in today’s churches as it soothes itching ears, as it gives no power to change, no power to overcome, no power to the Holy Spirit within every believer, if they also believe choose to otherwise, or a gospel other than, the gospel Paul first preached.

    A perfect counterfeit new gospel, the very thing Paul warns us not to follow!

    So, making this a personal attack, gives the moment to the little things in us, and the big picture is not seen, as we then busy ourselves delving into each word, with the ever ending questions presented by our little man that feels he is being attacked by his brother in Christ.

    Perhaps others will come to our support now, and that will further divide us.

    So, I guess if we can’t find the answers in the bible for ourselves, and if the Holy Spirit is lacking the answers and power as well, about how we should I live, or where we should I go with our itching ears, we then need to look elsewhere.

    Unfortunately, and sadly. that really applies to many falsely taught believers today!

    Sorry I’ve missed so many of your other points in your questions, and a hard message seems to be my only return. Be Blessed, Gary

  200. poohpity says:

    Bob, I think the reason you in the UK did not hear a lot about the Benghazi embassy attack was because your country as well as the Red Cross were wise enough to pull your people out before the attacks. They heeded the forewarning, our government seems to be in denial that al gaeda still exists and is growing.

  201. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Deb,
    We heard about the attack and the aftermath of that but not the political infighting and backlash/cover up there has been since.
    I feel a bit sorry for you all over there in the forthcoming elections as I like Obama, who has had a terrible time with trying to sort out the financial crisis while having to deal with political gridlock.
    This has made him seem weak and ineffectual, but your alternative candidate shows little concern other than for money.
    I pray y’all make the best choice.

    Bob

  202. poohpity says:

    It does not make any difference what someone came into it is what they do with what they have. I do not go on what people say I watch and keep very informed on things that most people only listen to on the news and do not bother to check out for themselves. I approach all of life pretty much the same way I do with my faith learning and not forming opinions with out hearing both sides and comparing them to the facts that are presented. I have already voted so that is a done deal for me. I do not vote on party lines I vote after much research for the person not the party. But thanks for telling us your opinion on President Obama who I pray for all the time, pretty big job. I usually vote for someone who has served in the military since he is the commander and chief but this time neither have any military background. Voting is a big responsibility for us in the USA that some take on emotions rather than information.

  203. poohpity says:

    For our President it is by EC not the popular vote, anyway but for those who represent us in the House and Senate it is done by popular vote.

  204. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    This is not a forum for political discussion as we have realised in the past, it only leads to argument & I am not up for argument with you again Deb.
    Bill mentioned that there was a debate in the US over the lack of intervention in Benghazi during the embassy attack, I had not heard of this debate.
    I can assure you that we are usually well informed by our media and take a keen interest in foreign politics & elections from all parts of the world.
    Having a parliamentary system as apposed to an exec and legislator that can be of opposing parties means that the government is always formed from the largest party or coalition of parties as we have at the moment.
    This system works well and allows executive decisions to be made without too much political conflict and certainly no gridlock as in the USA.

    Our coalition has come under great pressure and is trying it’s best to reduce borrowing but, like in the US, the deficit & Borrowing seems to be increasing and not decreasing. Luckily the government is taking tough action to cut spending but there is almost no “wiggle room” that would make any difference no matter who was in charge.
    I think the same applies over there no matter who wins the white house!
    We are all facing tough times and need to work together to resolve this world financial crisis.
    We are seeing a big increase in the use of food banks and poverty is increasing right across Europe with particular problems in Greece and southern Europe.
    This is very worrying as democracy itself in these countries is under threat.
    We have talked about love, and Bill has often mentioned that we should be out there “doing love” and not in here talking about it.
    I agree with that.
    There is such a great need to show love and like has been stated in the next topic, these disasters like “Frankenstorms” and poverty should be bringing us together in what we call “The Dunkirk spirit” over here.
    That’s when a defeat, retreat and evacuation of the beaches in Dunkirk in 1940 was turned into a triumph of human resourcefulness because every small boat from across Britain answered the call and rescued men under attack and plucked them to safety to fight another day.
    Where is our “Dunkirk Spirit”?

    Bob

  205. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob… we do not seem to have that “dunkirk spirit” when it comes to how we handled Benghazi today, but we do have a ballot box, and we will vote out of office those who do not have it.
    I wish we had the very efficent system that the UK has, everything settled in a few weeks, and spending so much less to get there. Politically speaking… while we are on the subject. :0 Gary

  206. poohpity says:

    I misunderstood the reference to Benghazi by affirming your country for bringing your embassy personal home before they were harmed. Put my foot in my mouth again and opened up the flood gates of intolerance and suspicion.

  207. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob…Thank God your country could see the handwriting on the wall, understood the growing darkness, and avoided the attacks that it would eventually make, if not rallied against, or stopped!
    To restate my possible intolerance and suspicion, I’m so glad your authorities, your government, didn’t tell those lifeboats to stand down, knowing full well many of those in harms way might not survive.
    No life preserver was sent by those who governed us that day, no get out of there now message came in a timely manner.
    But there were some who against all orders, against all political leanings, took the little they had and risked it all, even to their death, for the life or lives of others they saved that day.
    So, the Dunkirk spirit as you have labeled it, lies within the hearts of those who will take a stand, even against the rising tide of opposition, political correctness, and the intolerance and suspicions of others.
    Are we not all both labeled and found guilty as trespassers, against God’s clearly marked Word, knowing what goes forth around us daily, although it is clearly visible yet it goes as if unseen?
    Those now unmentionable trespasses or politically correct positions of modern man, have silenced many, lest some make a wave against its rising tide and make a stand, it will overcome us all!
    If good people don’t stand up against evil, or light does not pervail against darkness, then evil has it finest hour.
    In my humble opinion, Gary

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