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Win or Lose

Recently while in Curitiba, Brazil, I saw a city caught up in the enthusiasm and display of local elections. As an outsider who didn’t speak the language, it was easy not to get entangled in regional concerns.

Today as those of us in the US are entering into the final hours of a national election I find it far more difficult to know how to even acknowledge the day without arousing suspicions, fears, and disagreement among ourselves. Within this past week we saw on this blog how painful it was to see friendship broken, or at least strained, over our nationalistic and political differences.

So let’s together resist the urge to use this  space to engage in the kind of partisan debate that violates the evidence of our relationship to Christ (Gal 5:22-23); the marks of Christ-like wisdom (James 3:13-18) or the full spectrum of biblical values (Micah 6:6-8).

Long ago a prophet of God told the city of Jerusalem that she had made the communities of Sodom and Samaria look good by comparison (Ezek 16:51-52). Ezekiel described the sins of Sodom like this: Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.” (Ezekiel 16:49–50)

The prophet said this not to judge Sodom, but rather to humble a chosen people who had been unfaithful to their God.

As people who believe that a heart relationship with Christ is the ultimate biblical value, we have every reason to join our neighbors in voting for the common good. But let’s not bank the reputation of our King and the principles of our first citizenship on the altar of political sacrifice.

Wherever we stand in the messy deliberate half-truths of partisan political debate, let’s remember that those on the other side of the political aisle are not demons, but people for whom Christ died.

This is no time to lash out. It’s a time to reach out to one another, and moreso to our God.


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108 Responses to “Win or Lose”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    15 degrees here this morning, still 1/3 of town without electricity.
    For some the only thing heating up are tempers.

    Steve

  2. SFDBWV says:

    Mart has asked for us not to use this space for political debate that violates our relationship with Jesus of Nazareth.

    I promise not to be vile or callous to another’s feelings, but the very subject of elections and voting choices is divisive.

    I will quote to you here from Billy Graham as published in “Decision” magazine November 2012.

    “The legacy we leave behind for our children, grandchildren and this great nation is crucial. As I approach my 94th birthday, I realize this election could be my last, I believe it is vitally important that we cast our ballots for candidates who base their decisions on Biblical principals and support the nation of Israel. I urge you to vote for those who protect the sanctity of life and support the biblical definition of marriage between a man and a woman. Vote for Biblical values this November 6, and pray with me that America will remain one nation under God.”
    Billy Graham.

    The thing about politics is that when we vote we make a statement of our belief as to how our country will face the coming challenges and what direction we want our earthly government to take in the governing of nearly every aspect of living here amongst our neighbors.

    I have a very dear friend who is a reporter for the Keyser Tribune; she has a bumper sticker on her car that says “Christian Democrat”. I always get a laugh when I see it, as she is trying to get the message out that Democrats can be Christians also.

    I hope everyone votes today, a lot of people have tried to prevent us from having this freedom and a lot of people have sacrificed all they have so we can, so we honor them by exercising our vote and thumb our noses at those who would keep us under their heel of oppression.

    Steve

  3. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    I am grateful this long, expensive ($6 billion?) campaign is at an end – as your title says, Mart, “Win or Lose.” Campaigns have become cruel and unusual punishment for the voters of our country! It seems to me the real issues can be brought forth, debated and decided in something more like 90 days than 18 months! I have felt for some time now that this process is producing more heat and smoke than light and understanding with the energy it has used up.

    Win or lose, we will have a president. I have questions about whether the political will of this nation can be focused as 1) the party in control (the winner?) – joined in good faith by 2) a loyal opposition (the loser?) who will work together to solve the great challenges before us. We have not seen unity of purpose in the USA for something like fifty years.

    I pray as many as are able will cast their vote according to their own conscience. The fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy of Jerusalem’s and Judah’s humbling makes Hurricane Sandy look small. It is in our care of one another and seeking true justice that we are great according to heaven’s measurements.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  4. Bill says:

    Today — Tuesday, November 6, 2012 — Americans go to the polls to choose a President, to re-elect Barack Obama, or to elect Mitt Romney.

    I have a feeling that no matter who wins…

    …The media will gin up (or will continue to gin up) controversy and division.

    …Facebook and Twitter will overflow with anger — or haughty smugness.

    …Friends and family members will rejoice — or feel marginalized and defeated.

    …Political groups will demonstrate — perhaps even resorting to violence.

    In other words, now’s the ideal time to keep the love in mind that we discuss here from time to time.

    If the candidate for whom you voted wins, remember to love those who voted against him. Don’t lord it over them. Don’t add to the divisions. Approach them with open arms and ask them to work with you to help make America a better place. If the ideologies are too great, and unity can’t be achieved, then lead with humility, compassion, peace, and grace.

    If the candidate for whom you voted loses, remember to love those who voted for the other guy. Don’t hold it against them. Don’t add to the divisions. Approach them with open arms and request to work with them to help make America a better place. If the ideologies are too great, and unity can’t be achieved, then follow with humility, compassion, peace, and grace.

    Either way, love will see us through — come what may.

  5. poohpity says:

    As Christians we already know who has won and who has lost. We can allow many things of this world to distract from the One thing that holds us together, where our commitment and heart truly is. We can take sides with many things, people, polices, governments and their leaders but there is only one winning side and as long as we remain faithful to Him nothing here will separate us.

    This is only a little piece of sand in time and will be forgotten years from now but how we live follows us into eternity and has value. No matter win or lose it is how we play the game that really counts.

  6. redleaf3 says:

    Today, let’s remember that our country is make up of diversity. We don’t all think a like or have similar beliefs. It is our responsibility, as citizens, to cast our ballot based on our own understanding and not based on the thoughts of others.

  7. phpatato says:

    I am holding your great nation up in prayer today. God is watching; He is guiding; His Will will be done. He is also listening so pray before you mark your x.

    Our countries are close neighbours. It has been said that as America goes, in many ways so does Canada. Our boundaries enjoy great freedoms unmatched anywhere else in the world. So because of that closeness, I have my opinion as to who I want to win your election, albeit it’s a very uneducated one. I hope regardless of who wins, Biblical values are upheld and are even brought back into your everyday lives. In God you Trust… so do I.

    As for Mart’s desire of wanting no political debates here, may I say that I am guilty of having a strong opinion of what to me seems right from wrong. As in the last topic for example, I find it very difficult to sit back witnessing a wrong being done and not say something. In that case I was not taking sides; I only wanted to stop a wrong. I liken that to watching a child, wife or senior being abused and turning a blind eye to it; to let someone else deal with it. To me, especially as an outsider with nothing to gain or lose, Not saying something makes me as guilty.

    So may I apolgise again for sticking my nose in when it may not have been be warranted. Forgive me if I offended anyone, at any time, because of this desire to stop the wrongs. I promise I will try very hard not to step into the fray, but when I walk away and have to come back 3 or 4 times, to read and reread what I’m about to say and still have that strong desire to post, I will, hoping always that what I say is said in truth with love. I am a middle man and admitting it is the first step to recovery.

    God Bless

    Pat

    Mart, I tried to update my email address for this blog and couldn’t. Is that because of the site problems over the last few days?

  8. Bill says:

    @redleaf3, diversity shouldn’t mean division. But it does. When people value diversity over simply being an American, there will always be division, anger, and a profound lack of peace.

    @pooh, well said. Thank you.

    @Pat, sadly, we’ve become a nation ruled by political correctness, where every syllable is measured and run through a filter to see if it’s acceptable. So we’re all having to watch ever word, consider every thought..and, more often than not, those who tout PC the loudest are always those who vociferously demand its implementation. So those with a contrary opinion are told to sit down and shut up for fear of rocking the boat.

    I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t care. I will not be silenced, in word or deed. I will speak my mind with love, compassion, and respect. But I will not remain silent out of fear.

  9. poohpity says:

    That reminds me of James 1:19 NIV. Good communication has to do more with listening, really hearing what God has to say to us and what others are sharing. Not so much to be heard but rather to hear. Our actions speak so much louder than words but whatever is in one’s heart will come out in their speech.

  10. phpatato says:

    Bill quoting you: We’ve become a nation ruled by political correctness…. As I said, as America goes, so does Canada. I am almost to the point of drowning on the words “political correctness”. That phrase is among many other caustic ones, in my belief.

    Why is it that when someone steps in to stop a wrong, that the people involved first-hand will turn, join forces and lash out often times with a vengeance at the person just trying to help? I think of an abused wife who joins with her husband to tell police to mind their own business. Is the world twisted or what.

    I always try to weigh the seriousness of what is wrong before I speak out. If I believe it to be blatantly obvious and potentially hurtful and harmful, I have no problem becoming vocal. I believe myself to be a straightforward, tell it like it is type of person – whether that is a good thing or a bad thing I often wonder. But I always try to speak honestly in love. Key word try.

    It is sad that in the world today, wrong seems to be winning over right.

  11. redleaf3 says:

    @Bill, “When people value diversity over simply being an American, there will always be division, anger, and a profound lack of peace.”

    America is a diverse nation. Division, anger and lack of peace come into play when love is not present. Love should be the foundation of all that we do, all that we think and all that we believe.

  12. Bill says:

    I couldn’t agree more, redleaf3.

    But when was the last time you saw diversity equal love?

    I’m all for diversity. I love it, in fact. I learn from all types of people, and consider it an honor to be taught by so many ethnic groups, genders, and religions.

    But the media loves to divide and make angry.

    That’s what I object to. Not the diversity. The ginned up anger and division when there shouldn’t be any.

  13. BruceC says:

    Our first order of business is to follow and obey Christ. Patriotism is good but it can become a god to some. I pray for our nation and all its leaders; and for the people in our land who do not know Christ.
    Come what may; God has all of human history and all of our personal history spread out before Him like a scroll.
    He knows the beginning from the end concerning all things down to the tiniest detail. Regardless of who wins, Christ will always be King and the nations used as he sees fit.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  14. bubbles says:

    I also need to apologize also for the last post before last.
    I am very sorry for saying anything that should not have been said.

  15. His Sparrow says:

    We are, like the people of Sodom, Samaria, Jerusalem,

    about to get what we deserve if

    the bible is truth,

    if it is not about forgiven sin,

    but to be humbled for our unfaithfulness to God.

    There was no ‘recovery’ then; there will be no ‘recovery’ now.

    In love and sadness,
    His Sparrow

  16. SFDBWV says:

    Not sure whether Marts wants us to continue our discussion on national politics or not.

    I see no problem with discussing politics here as long as we do so with regard to others feelings and presenting the face of Christ when we do.

    I personally did not watch the returns last night as I felt I knew what the outcome would be, so no surprises this morning.

    The wonderful thing about America is that we will go on, nothing broken can’t be fixed and as long as we work together for the common good, things will work out.

    Do we make mistakes, yes, will we fumble the ball occasionally, yes, but we are only hated by the world because we are the envy of the world.

    Nothing will stop God’s will; just make sure which side of the aisle you are on where He is concerned.

    Steve

  17. BruceC says:

    Before going to bed last night I told my wife that God was on the Throne. When I awoke I told her He is still there. We are not the only “nation under God”. All nations are under His sovereignty. I also believe that we have been witnessing that “great falling away” for quite some time now in this world.
    My hope is in the Lord and no one else.

    I remember some of a sermon I heard by a well known preacher about the topic of “but God”. Man may think he rules and he can decree that there is no God and live like it. But God…….
    We already know the end of the story.

    God Bless All,
    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  18. Bill says:

    This election was pivotal because we, as a nation, stood at a crossroads.

    And we took the wrong road.

    Every behavior, attitude, action, and thought the Bible condemns as sin is now accepted, valued — even rewarded — by a majority of the citizens. If we believe the Bible at all, we have to know what that portends.

    Sparrow (writing at 3:01am) hit the nail on the head. Only I changed the tense. We are not “about to get” what we deserve. We got it. Sadly, our kids, grand kids, and those yet unborn did not. They deserved better.

    We are now a nation under God’s condemnation. Persecution and purification are coming. (And I don’t even want to imagine what will happen to Israel.)

    May God yet have mercy on us.

    And the world.

  19. BruceC says:

    Bill,

    I agree with what you said to some degree. As a nation we blew it. Just like ancient Israel did.
    The Church was born during the rule of one of the most barbaric empires ever known. Slavery was legal, sexual perversion was not only accepted as “normal” but was in many cases practiced openly and in public, people were killed for entertainment of others, greed, corruption, the poor allowed to starve to death, and human compasion at one of the lowest degrees. Pagan gods worshipped everywhere; even worship of living humans.
    You could almost use the cliche’; “the more things change the more they stay the same”.
    And the Word says what will happen to Israel before He sets foot on earth again.

    The crossroads you spoke of were crossed back in the late fifties and early sixties. School prayer was tossed aside and shortly after Bible reading. This was followed by legalized abortion; which to date has taken the lives of 54 million defenseless babies. So evil in our land is not a recent occurence.

    I look at this world as a big fancy restaurant. The maitre d’, the waiters, the cooks;they are the politicians, big global corparations, and world finaciers of this earth. Behind them are the princes of this world pulling the strings for their boss. Once the “meal” (the world) is finished and ready; the anti-christ will enter and he will sit down and have his meal served to him on a gold platter and it will happen for his “honor”. All the little people looking in through the windows will cheer him on even though they may be in misery. Before that meal is finished Jesus Christ; King of Kings, will crash the party. Game over.

    So when many of us say “Come quickly Lord Jesus” don’t be alarmed at what we see before He does.
    His will be done. And it shall.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  20. poohpity says:

    We still have a voice in what happens in our country. First and foremost we have prayer then we have the ability to pay attention to what is going on in our government and take part by writing and calling our representatives so that our voices are heard. We are the “United States of America” and this is a wake up call to not let things slip by anymore but take action in a civil, loving manner.

    Hopefully our President can bring this country together with our help as we support and pray for him.

  21. BruceC says:

    “Win or Lose” is the topic of this post.

    My candidate may have lost; but I won back in my 20’s when I accepted Christ in faith. Anyone who has put their faith in Christ has won by God’s grace. Those that reject Him have lost.
    I and folks I support may lose a battle here and there; but the victory has already been won by King Jesus.
    Sometimes I need to remind myself of that if my emotions get the best of me; as they do at times.
    Those on the losing side still have time while there is life in them to switch over and taste victory. That is the message we need to get out to them. The King is always open for more recruits.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  22. oneg2dblu says:

    Good morning all… our world will be worldly.
    Our nature will have its way, when, “All a man’s ways seem right to him but in the end lead to death.”

    The results of a single days election show nothing different then what we have been living as a society or PC entity now. The world supports the worldly, nothing under the Sun is new there!

    As darkness grows and finds its hour ever lengthening and so pleasing, so does our journey home become closer.

    When my “IF,” became my “I AM,” and saw the whole world differently, and that gave me His vision, instead of mine.
    No matter what society says, no matter what PC wants,
    I will not burn my flag or my Bible today… but I will Praise God that today is still His!

    Habakkuk 3:17,18,19 NIV Be Blessed, Gary

  23. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill, Bruce, Pooh, and others… just as we now stand together we all seem to have typed together, and even though we may seem we have posted separately, our world and our home became the very same the day we first met Christ to be Our Saviour…
    That day, our little world became much brighter, and we are now sharing, the Light of the World, even in its most darkening times. Gary

  24. poohpity says:

    I really get confused sometimes on how we expect the government to do the things we could be doing in our own home. When Israel first asked God for a King, when they had God to lead them, they (we) left ourselves open for trouble following after man.

    Why ask the schools to have prayer and read the bible when we neglect it in our own homes. Why ask a government to follow after God when we have been given a job to do, being a servant until the Master returns. I think I need to look first in my own life before I expect others to do something where I fall so short in doing myself. Matthew 24:45-47 NLT

  25. florida7sun says:

    The Apostle Paul knew the importance of “grace and peace” in living a victorious life. These qualities expressed within a person, a home, a community and a country provide healing and hope. They are as essential to personal well-being and the governance of a nation, as are food and water to an individual or collective body.

    Our Lord and Savior is ever present and ever watchful. He governs in the affairs of men. We are blessed beyond measure to have His Heart, His Word and His Spirit to guide us.

    As believers, all of us are winners. Our Father in Heaven has proven His love for us… the Word became flesh; the tomb is empty; His Son became the Resurrection and Life.

    “O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” – Micah 6:8

    Grace and peace to you, today and always.

    Ray

  26. ttl7praz says:

    I feel that several of you “regular” bloggers could really benefit from reading Joe Stowell’s message for today (Nov 7)entitled “Savor the Flavor” in the Strength for the Journey section of the RBC website. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to pick up on your personal disdain and overall air of pending doom and gloom. Perhaps your prayers should start with some inner soul searching which include asking
    yourselves, “Is my thinking and belief system TRULY in line with the same Jesus who was ridiculed for “hanging out” with tax collectors, prostitutes and the like?”, before you take on the more challenging task of praying for the safeguarding of the United States, Israel or any other place in this world.

  27. kingdomkid7 says:

    John 14 is providing comfort to me today. My heart was much troubled by the country’s vote. Right now, I work in the belly of the beast, a university. 99% of the people I work with are now jubilant because their god is their political platform of unlimited government largesse to those they identify as needy, along with support for ungodly relationships and life-styles of legalized drugs, abortion on demand, and same-sex marriage. They worship the right to just do whatever they want as long as it feels good to them. And the vote yesterday affirmed everything they believe in.
    But what do I believe? I believe what Jesus said in John 14: that Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him. That He has gone to prepare a place for me. That I have His peace and not any peace that the world could give. That I should not be troubled or afraid. That He has left his Holy Spirit with me to be my Comforter, teacher and guide. That He is coming back. And that my job is to not give up — to keep the light of His love strongly burning.

    May God bless us all and keep us standing through the difficult days ahead. And may we continue to show our love for Jesus through our continued obedience to his commandments.
    (John 14:21). We are in this together.

  28. Bill says:

    @ttl7praz, I’m not sure I understand your post.

    Joe Stowell’s entry, in part, says this:

    “In Him our diversity doesn’t divide but rather unites and enriches us as we recognize that we all have Jesus, His Word, and His ways in common. As we embrace Him together, our differences become secondary and our mutual love for Him drives us to love each other as He has loved us.”

    His comments have nothing to do with the reality of what’s been He’s speaking to believers. He’s not speaking to unbelievers, the number of which is growing by the day.

    Judging by the deep, deep divides in America — I think, greater than at any time since the Civil War — I’d say even believers have trouble setting aside politics and making diversity secondary to embracing Jesus.

    You wrote:

    “Perhaps your prayers should start with some inner soul searching which include asking yourselves, ‘Is my thinking and belief system TRULY in line with the same Jesus who was ridiculed for “hanging out” with tax collectors, prostitutes and the like?’

    I can’t speak for others who are deeply alarmed about the direction in which our country is headed. But I can say that I resent your implication that my beliefs are not “TRULY in line with the same Jesus…” because it seems to imply that we harbor some kind of prejudice, or an unloving attitude toward diversity, or that we are racist in our opposition to the damage done by those currently in Washington.

    Even if I dismissed everything said or done by President Obama in the last four years, what he did to those four Americans trapped in our consulate in Benghazi — watching them die while telling nearby forces to “stand down” — is enough to sicken me and bring me to tears. That, alone, was treasonous. But the subsequent lies and coverups are grounds for impeachment.

    I stand for Lex, Rex — Law is King. That was the foundation for our Constitution and Declaration of Independence…both of which were heavily influenced by men of God who revered the Bible and its Author. However, this administration has reversed the order and has declared Rex, Lex — the King is Law.

    Pooh made a very good point. We cannot expect our government to do what we will not. What’s going on in Washington today is a direct result of our turning away from the Bible. We, as a nation, have rejected God. Therefore, I believe God has given us over to precisely that which we desire in our hearts.

    That’s why I wrote earlier that we have the government we deserve.

    So, we DO have to search our hearts. But not for reasons of not embracing diversity. Until we repent as a nation, and return to God’s law, we will continue the downward spiral.

    I’m done with this topic. No more politics for me.

  29. poohpity says:

    ttl7praz, I agree revival starts one heart at a time and I am only responsible to God for mine. Often times we try and clean others up while there is so much work to be done in my own heart. Thank you for the challenge.

  30. kingdomkid7 says:

    Diversity is a new shibboleth for some. Bill, like you, I hope and pray that diversity will soon become something that is secondary to embracing Jesus. It has become a buzzword, a catch-phrase, and a shield. Yes, we all have to examine our hearts on our prejudices and allow Holy Spirit to purify us. That is truly personal.
    But examining the conduct of our elected leader should be fair game, without anyone having to be viewed as anti-diversity, or God forbid, racist. Enough of the “race card,” please. What will it take to retire that old, tired thinking? Can we please replace it with the Jesus card? The Stowall devotion seems to support that notion by citing Galatians 3:28.

  31. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh.. aren’t we all glad that Christ, all the Prophets, and Apostles, and even Paul felt responsible for more than just themselves, by sharing and teaching others as the Lord led them?

  32. oneg2dblu says:

    1 Peter 4:10 comes to mind about responsibility toward others, am thinking if God has gifted you and you do not use it, what then? Just wondering…

  33. Mart De Haan says:

    Seems to me that it is too easy to forget that partisan political condemnation of others is often the result of selectively hearing one side of the evidence, and then not allowing the wheels of time and justice to do their work.

    That’s one reason I’m convinced that letting our faith get enmeshed in a partisan political process is so detrimental to our spiritual health. It’s an unequal partnership that all too often brings out the worst in us.

    Who among us will deny the wisdom of listening to both sides of an issue, praying for discernment, using the best judgment we have– while suspending the kind of condemnation reserved for God alone– and loving even our enemies in the process.

    May sound about as appetizing as eating beets, sour kraut and dandelion greens. But there is a bitterness far worse…

  34. kingdomkid7 says:

    Who is advocating partisan political condemnation? Can you please tell me Mart? Should our faith never motivate us to speak on issues of public concern? Who is bitter? As a black woman, I find your comments just a little bit condescending. I was born the year our country desegregated the public schools in America. I’ve devoted my entire adult life to trying to eradicate the badges and incidences, the vestiges of slavery — not just for me, but for us all. But some of us are saying it is time to go to the next level: give up the race card and pick up the Jesus card. I stand by that and know in my heart that I have walked the talk. We all need to grow, but it is wrong to say that politics and faith should be separate. They cannot be separated. Everyone who thinks they are “neutral”needs to know, there really is no such thing. Our politics and our faith show themselves — at the same time — every time we open our mouths.

  35. Bill says:

    I agree with Kingdomkid7. I see no evidence of partisanship going on here, nor in the elections in general. What I see are deep divisions based on ideologies — ideologies that directly conflict with the Bible. No more, no less.

    It is a mistake to by into the straw-man argument that partisanship is the culprit. The divisions go much deeper than that.

    Politics are the only avenue we have as Christians to right wrongs or to address issues of tremendous impact to us. Look at what’s happening to Catholics right now. They are being told to set aside their religious beliefs to do something anathema to their faith. Is that partisan? No. It is a clash of ideologies that are forcing Christians to bow to government.

    Romans 13 clearly tells us that we live in a political world and that we, as Christians are to take part in it.

  36. kingdomkid7 says:

    So true, Bill. Love you brother.

  37. BruceC says:

    kingdomkid7,

    I’ll pray for you sister while you are at work. You are 100% true. Colleges are the belly of the beast. I know a brother in Christ who retired from one locally about ten years ago and he filled me in on what goes on.
    I pray to the Lord that your light shines upon the darkness there and he gives you wisdom and strength.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  38. davids says:

    “That’s one reason I’m convinced that letting our faith get enmeshed in a partisan political process is so detrimental to our spiritual health. It’s an unequal partnership that all too often brings out the worst in us.”

    Thank you, Mart.

    Bill, I very much appreciate much of what you write, but you claim that the President is “treasonous” and then you say, “I see no evidence of partisanship going on here…What I see are deep divisions based on ideologies — ideologies that directly conflict with the Bible.” Which is to say that you believe that one party represents the correct ideology.

    I’m not going to comment anymore on this thread. I’ll wait for the next one.

    Peace.

  39. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thanks Bruce. I need so much prayer to keep going. It is a battle every day. Thanks from the bottom of my heart.

  40. Mart De Haan says:

    I’m not trying to discourage political involvement or partisanship.

    I’m talking about partisan (or ideological) judgement/condemnation of our president, or the claim that real Christians belong on only one side of the aisle. I’ve heard that over and over, and the only way it works is to selectively choose which “biblical values” we are going to use to define the difference between us and them.

    Civil rights, liberty and justice for all are huge issues, as are many others that we can support regardless of our religious faith.

    We have to decide though whether we are going to treat our participation in government as if the government is to be organized and ruled like a church.

    The Apostle Paul made it very clear that the rules we apply to fellow members of the body of Christ are not the same rules we apply to society in general.

    Biblical values include faithfulness to the One true God; faith in the Son of God as our only hope of life now and forever; sexual faithfulness; loving our enemy; living by wisdom; peacemaking; concern for the poor etc.

    We’ve just gone through a political season where countless followers of Christ seemed to feel no conscience when it came to passing along half-truths, gossip, and outright lies if it served partisan interests.

    The issue is not whether we should be involved in the political process, but rather how we enter that process, and whether we do so with the carefulness of concern not only for our own reputation but the reputation of those on the other side of the aisle.

    A just cause cannot be fought with an anything goes attitude.

  41. james451 says:

    I cannot understand, during the upcoming election, that so many Christians who believe in Jesus Christ and daily read the Bible, can brush all that aside and vote for a man without Christian values. A man that claims that Jesus Christ was born after a god walked the earth as a man and had sex with Mary producing Jesus and Satan as his brother is just not someone that a Child of God should vote for. Have they let their politics overshadow their faith? It is impossible for me to understand.

  42. poohpity says:

    And on the other hand one who says they are a Christian who lies, never takes responsibility for their actions but blames someone else, has several close relationships with extremist Palestinians, deflects questions when asked, uses the suffering of others to promote a political agenda, suffers from a messiah complex, etc. etc. etc. That is why it is so important to consider both sides of the isle. It was to me considering the best of two evils. It is over now. What it came down to for me, was who had the experience to get us out of the mess we are in not their faith. It is very hard to be a politician, lawyer or car salesman and maintain a Christian reputation, lol, IMHO.

  43. bubbles says:

    I have written two posts and deleted them.

    What is the use in voicing thoughts any longer?

  44. kingdomkid7 says:

    If you ask the wrong question, you will get the wrong answer. The question is not whether Obama is a nominal Christian (or even a hidden Muslim), or whether Romney is a Morman (or a member of a questioned Christian sect). No one needs a President who only represents his/her religious affiliation. The election of JFK laid to rest the idea of a President’s personal religious beliefs being a genuine campaign issue. So the question is not what is the stated religion of our elected officials.

    But the question is also not what political party the President belongs to. That is equally irrelevant.

    . The question is what values will the President advance on behalf of the country — on our behalves. Well now we know the answer: values of “pro-choice” baby destruction. Values of big government. Values of appeasement of our identified enemies. Values of sexual impurity. The first and last of these values are absolutely spoken about in our Bible. That is why I personally crossed the line from the party I first belonged to: the democrats. Because the real question is simply not about party affiliation. It’s about voting a conscience that is trying to adhere to what God would approve. Is there a perfect candidate? Of course not.

    But some of us know beyond a doubt that, at a minimum, God wants us to choose life. That means letting those who are conceived be born. Will that position be perceived in our increasingly secularized society as extreme? In some quarters, yes. Does that matter? No.
    We really must start asking different questions. Our answers will improve if we do.
    Back to the salt mines. Love to you all.

  45. cherielyn says:

    So many of you have voiced the thoughts that have been going through my mind that I will not be redundant.

    Just wanted to share the automatic signature that I have been using on my email for the past several years, which is as follows:

    One day closer to Christ’s return!
    When life is more than you can stand, kneel!
    Life is not a Dress Rehearsal – Live the gift of each new day.
    Find a way to be thankful for your troubles – they might become your blessings!

    Praying for our country’s future and for each and every one of you.

    I have been having internet problems. When I finally got back online, there were so many comments on the last post (pr two?) that I haven’t had a chance to catch up.

  46. Bill says:

    @Mart, you wrote:

    “We’ve just gone through a political season where countless followers of Christ seemed to feel no conscience when it came to passing along half-truths, gossip, and outright lies if it served partisan interests.”

    Could you provide examples to support your assertion? I think we might learn something from you doing so.

    You wrote:

    “I’m talking about partisan (or ideological) judgement/condemnation of our president, or the claim that real Christians belong on only one side of the aisle.”

    I think our President’s actions speak for themselves.

    I’m not sure I’ve heard the claim that “real Christians belong on only one side of the aisle.”

    It seems you are the one getting hung up on politics and partisanship. The people who are posting here are listing grievances that have nothing to do with politics. Or which side of the aisle one sits on. Yet, you keep turning it into a political matter. You are creating a straw man.

    When I read these posts, I see brothers and sisters in the Lord with very real, quite biblical (or even merely constitutional, ethical, or fiscal) concerns regarding this administration. I don’t see anyone saying, “One must be a Republican to be a Christian” or “Democrats are not Christians.” Or vice versa.

    In other words, just because a Christian values life and does not wish to see taxpayer-funded abortion on demand forced on everyone does NOT mean we’ve all become political animals motivated by partisan politics. Ironically, to suggest that we are turns the matter into politics and partisanship. But an unborn baby is neither Democrat nor Republican. It is merely a human being trying to survive.

    Since when did that become a political issue and not a human-rights one? Or, to put it another way, if a biblical case can be made to save the lives of unborn babies, why would anyone suggest that Christians should not be at the forefront of trying to save said unborn babies — partly by feeding, clothing, and sheltering pregnant women, partly by offering pro-life counseling services, and partly by not voting for politicians who have made it their life’s goal to not just support the killing of babies (right up until the second before birth…or even to allow babies born alive after a botched abortion to die in buckets or on a cold table in an abortion clinic) but force even Christians who are adamantly opposed to abortion to PAY FOR such services.

    Politics goes by the wayside at that point. Then it’s literally a matter of (a) life and death, and (b) the freedom to practice our religion as we see fit — not as the government tells us.

  47. narrowpathseeker says:

    Hello All, I just stopped by to see if Steve, Cherielynn, and any others in the path of Sandy were ok. I am glad everyone here endured it without any tragic incidents.

    Pat, Claudia, any anyone I missed(I only skimmed through a few posts to see that everyone was ok) thank you for your concerns. I prepared with prayer and was singing, “I know the Master of the Wind”. We lost power for several days but other than that we had no problems whatsoever. There was hardly any evidence in my immediate area that there had even been a storm, but down the road in both directions trees and debri covered the roads. I was praying for all here to be safe and wasn’t thinking that my own absence might cause concern in regard to the storm. I thought the reason for my absence was more obvious.

    I have treasured many of the profound insights and inspiration here and you have definitely helped me through some difficult times and I am very grateful for that. Thank you. Unfortunately, at this time I am not able to ignore that which isn’t in that realm at all. Therefore, I have to stay away until the Lord deals with me. Again thank you for your concerns and I am sorry I worried anyone. I don’t know when I will be back again, but I am in the Lord’s Hands, and I will be praying for “y’al”. God Bless

  48. His Sparrow says:

    The only question I need to ask any politician (or anyone for that matter to get to know them) is whether or not they believe in abortion.

    The enemy seeks to kill, steal, and destroy.

    If you “buy into” or rationalize the first one…killing,

    the next two follow and are unstoppable.

    Love
    His Sparrow

  49. Mart De Haan says:

    Our disagreements here are painful. But don’t they also help us to see why Jesus did not come to make the ten commandments the law of the land?

    Isn’t it apparent that our disagreements are based on the selective use of moral law? On ideology? On judgments that we are making about one another and others?

    These approaches will not change anyone’s mind, or anyone’s heart.

    As Ken Burns shows so well in his documentary series on prohibition, making alcohol illegal turned a nation of drunkards into a nation of scofflaws and then into a nation of hypocrites.

    Doesn’t that illustrate why fighting with one another and others on the basis of moral law and ideology only makes matters worse?

  50. foreverblessed says:

    Bubbles asked, what is the use of having some more thoughts posted. Yes, what it the use? I agree with Mart, that the main point is to work together, not polarising, but seeking a way to make decisions that are good for the country. For our country a big issue has to be dealt with, the deficit. Pray for them the will make wise decisions.
    In our country we lately had an election, two parties were the biggest, the one is the labour party, the other the party for rich people, and businessmen. Two opposites. They decided to work together and lead the country, I pray they will be succesfull in that. Polarising is not good. Saying that the opponent is of the devil. Both sides have good points and bad points. In our case it is good that the one party sees to it, that the poor are not hit hard by cut downs. And the other party sees to it that businesses are not hit hard. But the rich are already grumbling. There is going to be a change in health insurance: the rich are going to pay more then poor, it used to be that everybody paid the same. And the rich are opposing this strongly.
    The bible is full of verses that God is upset about Israel, mainly because of suppressing the poor, or other words that are used: Unjust gain. Ezekiel 33:31. Leviticus 25:35
    So I agree with Mart, see both sides. And work together.

  51. SFDBWV says:

    I am 65 years old, I come from depression era parents who worked hard and sacrificed for their children. They built a better America to hand over to their children.

    During my lifetime I have watched as those who do nothing for anyone else expect those who do work and sacrifice to hand over to them the benefits of their labor.

    They have plenty of advocates who use the name of Christ as their guilt prod to make Christian people feel guilty for feeling angry at such parasites and misuse scripture to base their political beliefs.

    Yesterday Palestinians cheered at the election of Obama, while Israeli’s wept.

    4 years ago I expressed my displeasure of this president and especially of his political party’s immoral agenda. I got beat up by several here for doing so.

    So I will say very little more except it is sad that there are those among us who chastise others for not agreeing with them all the while saying we should ignore the world around us and live in a fantasy oblivious to the wrongs forced upon us by others.

    Homosexuals danced in the streets in a couple states as their states legitimized a behavior God condemned as being an abomination.

    The blood of innocent babies cries up from the ground and God hears them.

    The Barbarians are not at the gate they are in the treasury and plundering all we have.

    This evil administration has been filling people with fear for the past 4 years, they will reap the whirlwind.

    My fear is in the Lord, and my hope is in the Lord, I am ready to leave and say goodbye to the hypocrisy and wrongs of this world, but God is not yet done with us, we have to stay a little while longer and be a contrast to the world around us.

    It is God’s way of doing things, and somewhere in a future history it will all make sense.

    I am not going to let evil steal my joy.

    Steve

    PS: There are still 1/3 of the homes in my community without electricity, winter is upon us, yet our volunteers are still feeding those who can not feed themselves and offering assistance to all in need of it. Outside of the municipals assistance there is no government aid, no Red Cross, only neighbors helping neighbors. We kind of like it that way.

  52. BruceC says:

    Steve,

    I will pray for you and others in your area.

    Neighbors helping neighbors. I like that. No strings attached.

    I agree with you about this mindset in the US where some people who don’t want to work think they have the right to the earnings of those that do. Although I would never begrudge help to those that truly need it. I am on disability for an illness and even though I paid into SS I don’t like it much. But I can’t do anything about it either. The ones that used to irk me when I worked Welfare Fraud in the Sheriff’s Dept were the ones younger and stonger than myself and fully able to work that were getting the whole package and didn’t feel guilty at all. In fact for many it was a generational thing. But worse than their human nature to do so; was the system than not only allowed it; but actually encouraged it. Mostly for polital reasons and for job security. Just a nasty vicious circle where everyone loses.
    God help as we try to do what we can.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  53. Mart De Haan says:

    I’ll try to have something else up tomorrow morning to move in another direction.

  54. kingdomkid7 says:

    Let me see if I understand why I should shut up about trying to speak on what God definitely says, Mart. It is because Prohibition did not work. We cannot legislate morality. So it means we should not even try to reach the hearts and minds of others by sowing the good seed of God’s word which says that we should not kill? God gives the increase, but we must sow. We cannot give into the darkness. We must not shut up. I respect you Mart, but you are advocating the path of least resistance. And we are in war.
    One of my students was a lesbian. Someone reached her enough to get her to go to church. She was saved, left a long-standing lesbian relationship, sold her home, changed her life and has become an outspoken advocate for Jesus Christ. But I suppose she should have just been left alone. I don’t think so.

  55. phpatato says:

    Dearest Narrow

    I am thanking God for His protection of you, your family and your home in Sandy. It is good to hear you are safe!

    ” I have to stay away until the Lord deals with me.”….

    It saddens me to read that so I hope you don’t mind that I will be praying that you are a quick study :-). Please don’t stay away long. You will be missed. As always, may God keep you surrounded with His love.

    Love your sister in Christ

    Pat

  56. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all…We all know giving is good.
    It is even biblical!
    Government giving entitlements is easy, or allowing it to continue until there is no more, easier yet, to give what is not theirs is easy for them, but is it godly or biblical?
    The answer may be…Just try stopping it, and see if you get a godly response!

    That is a whole different problem, one which I see as an even greater one, for if the Government were to stop it, all we would see is God’s Greater giving, and God’s greater power, or a nation returning to being “Under God.”

    We all know this type of giving, entitlement giving by a growing government must be stopped before it becomes unstoppable.

    Government does not earn anything or own anything, and what it now gives so freely as entitlements, can only come from and must be taken away from others, to do their giving.

    God who owns all things, and freely gives us all things,
    is not into taking anything from the blessed, He only asks the blessed, to do the right thing.

    In fact He only asks all of us to do the right thing.

    Just like turning the cheek on many sinful lifestyles, allowing its darkness to creep into the churches, and then calling it love, inclusiveness, compassion, personal rights, or personal freedom, or any other proper sounding label, is in fact, calling it anything but sin, and that lie will be gladly accepted by the ever sinning masses.
    Too bad God isn’t in the numbers game, too bad masses don’t sway his ideals.

    But for a remnant of those will be obedient, who will be law abiding?

    That is what breaks the heart of God as multitudes turn there cheeks in favor of not condemning sin, but only condoning those who practice such.

    He alone calls us to a higher standard, a higher love if you will, but we won’t tolerate it, we would rather soft peddle, or gloss over, and even lies, rather then just tell them the truth.

    So, the masses vote God out of office as we run our vote seeking governments just the way we want, and the masses decide against the laws of God, as they crucify his values, his law, his Son, and themselves!

    Government today builds another Tower of Babel as it competes for power from the people it entitles.

    We are a leaning tower as we are getting to the tipping point of all this growing entitlement, and just like Greece, the entitled mentality will not tolerate being stopped!

    As others here have so wisely stated, the right answers really lie in how we pose the questions.

    We know there is no more deceptive poser than Satan!

    The right answers really lie in the Appling of limits, not an anything and everything goes mentality, like making everything legal where we have no law breakers.

    God gave us the law, so that we would know the right questions, but if we form the question wrongly, we get the wrong reply.

    “Did God really say you would die?”

    Here’s a thought… Everyone who now supports this Abortion on Demand as being a women’s right, showing love, compassion and the lot, is really living on the wrong side
    of this issue, because they are also very glad they have their life!

    Just dare to ask them the right question…

    We must have law and order, and lawlessness leads to disorder, opposing godly values, giving man anything that tickles his fancy, and don’t bring your Jesus into that equation, or you will be labeled a bigoted, bible bashing, moral extremist, unloving, and without compassion.
    But, who is really giving out all those labels, and
    How do they from their questions?

    Is God really first in their lives, or is it man’s ideals that they now serve through a more powerful political party which is now our government, conveniently growing even larger under this deceptive, Separation of Church and State.

    Just a question…and we all know the answer!

    We win or lose by the questions we ask!

    Have a blessed day! Gary

  57. SFDBWV says:

    Last evening on the History Channel the topic of the Rapture was discussed.

    I thought how appropriate.

    We all live wherever it is we reside. We can and do follow the teaching and compassion of Jesus of Nazareth, but we are all citizens of somewhere here and now.

    As citizens we owe a responsibility to God to be the best citizens we can by living the example He has brought forth through Biblical wisdom and example.

    Jesus did not ask us to renounce our citizenship He ask us to surrender our trust to Him.

    There are several things God hates. Am I to believe that that once He became a man that He changed His mind? Not according to Scripture.

    Political correctness has trumped our ability to honestly express ourselves, and heaven forbid if we say we are unhappy with our present administration in Washington, we are quickly told that Paul told us to accept earthly rule and to pray for those in control.

    I can accept earthly rule, but that does not mean I have to like it nor does it mean I should be silent, certainly I should pray for our leaders, pray for them to become as I a Christian that believes in and follows Christian ethics.

    I don’t know Mart if changing the subject tomorrow morning will make any of us feel better about this subject and where it is left.

    Kingdomkid7 I like you a lot, bless you.

    Steve

  58. poohpity says:

    Legalism seems to say I have a moral compass I live by and I expect everyone else to do the same. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world it is hidden from hands of those who could bring it ruin. He never wanted the job of a earthly king or ruler, He wanted something more precious our hearts so that we could be that beacon on the hill. Who wants to be around someone like what is written in Col 3:8-9 NIV.

    To demonize anyone who does not think, act, live and say the way I think, act, live and say, to me is the worst judgement around. That is how clicks get started, that is how churches get destroyed, and that is how peoples lives get butchered. We are called to a higher road not to elevate ourselves but to elevate Christ. Col 3:10-11 NIV.

    How others can see that in us Col 3:12-14. I do not think we are called to change the world, I believe that is God’s job but we are called to be peacemakers so that others will want to know about Christ for the world to come. Col 3:15 NIV. Each person has to look within and not gauge themselves on worldly standards because that resemblance will be more prevalent but to how much we do not look like the world. Loading rules on others really looks to me like exactly what Jesus confronted in the Pharisees’ and Sadducees’ on and I know sometimes it is hard not to act like them.

  59. poohpity says:

    I do not feel like I can push my beliefs about abortion on anyone but I can tell them how it will effect their lives in the future. I can help at Child Crisis Center that gives alternatives to abortion. I can explain that there is also forgiveness for those who have gotten an abortion and are eaten up with guilt. I could write my representatives or call them and tell them I do not want my tax dollars spent on that but could they put it in the fund for the military instead. There are ways of doings things that will not cause harm.

    Homosexuality is no worse sin than alienating another Christian or holding a grudge against them. Jesus died for all people and their sin and it is our job to tell them about that not to dictate how they should live. It is Jesus that changes a person’s heart and life not by condemnation but by the love he had for all sinners by paying their sin debt. That knowledge and experience is what changes us all from what we were to what we will become. He who began a good work in you will complete it.

  60. poohpity says:

    I did not want a president that regulates moral standards, I wanted a president that would get the governments fiscal house in order, lead to get a balanced budget, make sure our countries defenses are at their greatest so no other countries would think twice about coming against us. To lead by bringing the country together and not bring class, gender, or party warfare which causes division. To bring about trade agreements and revamp our tax system. To great rid of the red tape caused by the government that brings down businesses. To just lead for what would be best for the American people. Leave the moral regulations to God.

  61. oneg2dblu says:

    Bubbles… I feel your pain, but we need every voice to be heard here, and every verse to be read.
    Is it then, we will really understand all things?
    No!
    But, at least each has given what they have been directed to say here, and God’s voice will be seen and heard here.

    Unfortunately, for a few other voices, God’s word has been shut down in the schools.

    Unfortunately, for a few other voices, abortion on demand is now a right, same sex marriage is now a right, and God’s voice, now sits on the self of man’s preferred choices.

    Who has really won, and who has really lost?

    I guess for today each decides for themselves, and for a few other voices, many have taken God’s word and put it on the self, where self serving desire wins their day, and Separation of Church and State rules their party and their governments.

    Or as some would say let’s give it more time and not jump to our conclusions here, for maybe we are just being more political then being godly.

    I wonder what happens when God’s voice is shut down…
    Oh yeah, God’s speaks up!

    He sometimes un-mutes an ass,(donkey)to get his message converged, even the rocks, (dust)will cry out, as He hears the Prayers of His People, and He Heals their Land!

    In that premise and upon that promise we must wait, but not in Silence. Gary

  62. phpatato says:

    My thoughts of moral decay….the eating away of all that is right.

    For the Christian, where is the standard for what is right found? In God’s Holy Word, the Bible.

    Don’t despair. Moral decay is not exclusive to only the United States. Sadly, moral decay has eaten away the whole world. The values by which we try to live are unravelling or have already eroded away. The world today indeed belongs to the prince of darkness. Ever so slowly, the light of all that is right is being snuffed out.

    But as God’s children, seeing this, should we give up; call it quits; yell we are defeated? Is that what God wants us to do? NO! We are told to fight the good fight. We are the light of this world! More now than ever, we must hold our lights high, shine that beam brightly, become a beacon and don’t hide it under a bushel. It may seem daunting and even impossible at times, but keeping it lit will keep the “darkness” away. Hold to what is right in spite of it all.

    This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine.
    This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.

    Won’t let Satan blow it out.
    I’m gonna let it shine.
    Won’t let Satan blow it out.
    I’m gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.

    Let it shine til Jesus comes.
    I’m gonna let it shine.
    Let it shine til Jesus comes.
    I’m gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.

    Hide it under a bushel – NO!
    I’m gonna let it shine.
    Hide it under a bushel – NO!
    I’m gonna let it shine, Let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.

    Let it shine over the whole wide world,
    I’m gonna let it shine.
    Let it shine over the whole wide world,
    I’m gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.

  63. kingdomkid7 says:

    I am sure Mart will soon change this subject. I will only say one more thing. Peacemakers come in all sizes and shapes. Because some decide to speak the truth about God’s word does not mean anyone is condemned. If anyone feels condemned, it is their own sin that does that. Jesus came to save the world not to condemn it. But he does not say keep on sinning. He says go and sin no more. I take that to mean that Jesus is not neutral on sin.

    When the legislators in any of our states sit down to write the laws that we all must live by, you may be certain that their personal values and morals are melded within that law. Abortion laws are laws. They permit killing of innocent life, and only because a majority of the lawmakers do not respect life at the time of conception. But we must stay silent about that whole law-making process? We should not care how our legislators think? Then why vote at all?
    Yes, Jesus refused to set up a worldly rule while He was here. But He does not expect us to sit back and let things fall apart. Does anyone do that in their family? We have examples in the Bible of chaos within families that do not set limits. (Even dear King David bore the brunt of poor parenting.)

    The bottom line for me is that we clearly have some work to do, so we should just roll up our sleeves and get to it. That might also require doing some talking.

    Let’s keep talking, at least to each other. Steve, in my book, you are “good people”!

  64. poohpity says:

    Jesus teaches us to return good for evil not as the world does returning evil for evil. Yes we do need to roll up sleeves and do what God has told us to do. That is to share what He has done in our lives, forgiving. Be kind when others do not deserve it. Attack hatred with grace and kindness. Being patient with others just as God has been patient with all mankind for generations. Use soft tones when others are being angry. Be gentle with those who are being harsh. Show mercy when others are being disrespectful and showing malice. That is the kind of light that I am drawn to.

    The world teaches if someone treats you bad treat them bad. If they are angry with you be angry back. If someone raises their voice to you raise yours higher. Protect yourself because no one else will look out for you. Think that your voice rises above another because they do not deserve to be heard. Look at the faults in others rather than looking within at your own. Think that your morals are higher and more righteous than someone else.

    No, God does not ask us to sit back and let things fall apart, He wants us to trust Him and how He handles things because He does it in away where truth and grace are the priority.

  65. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… 11-8 12:55 Wow! How do we take something like holding a grudge against another Christian, and compare it to a sexual act clearly condemned by God, where two people engage in a same sex union called homosexuality?
    We are not talking about hugging and holding hands in love, we are speaking about a specifically condemned sexual act, a defiling of the body.
    Destroying the sanctity of marriage as sex with one man and one woman as designed by God, compared to the holding of a grudge? Wow!
    We are talking about direct disobedience to His,” Be fruitful and multiply.”
    We are talking about defiling the very temple of our own body (and) the body of the other as well, when we do these things?
    We are not talking about having thoughts and concepts here, like holding hands, or like holding a grudge, but an actual condemned sexual act.
    I trust we are not to start justifing everything as being the same as holding a grudge.
    Sounds so very legalistic…when we ask the right questions though.
    Not condemning by just the word, but also the act! Gary

  66. SFDBWV says:

    Talked with a young mother of three this morning; she was getting frustrated at running her generator keeping her kids warm and doing without electricity for 8 days and counting.

    Very upsetting that I can’t fix hers and everyone else’s problem, but praise God there are utility trucks in town this afternoon so things are starting to look up.

    My lilac bushes are frozen in a bent over bow with the tops of their branches frozen to the ground under several inches of ice. They seem to be in a state of prayer, thought I might free them but in order to do that I would injure them so I have let them remain bent over in prayer.

    36 degrees and sunny this afternoon.

    Steve

  67. poohpity says:

    Gary, I believe a sin is a sin. You break one you have broken the whole law. There are not degrees to sin. Jesus said if you even have anger in your heart toward a brother then that is the same as committing murder. That is what the Bible says not me. So whether it is sexual sin or anger at your brother or sister in Christ it is all the same to God according to His Word. I believe that is why Jesus said what He did in Matthew 7:1-4 NIV.

  68. poohpity says:

    Jesus confronted those who feel self righteous by saying the law of Moses says but “I say to you” and that is found in Matthew 5. He asks us to look deep within at our hearts so that we can see exactly how short we really do fail so we will not be so quick at taking someone else’s inventory.

  69. foreverblessed says:

    A friend of mine has friends living in Long Island: there are still people without electricity since the storm, and so without heat. Many have lost their homes, and there are not enough homesto rent. (This is mainly effecting the poor people). Not enough gasoline, so generators have no power. And tonight a snowstorm is coming. Please pray for these people.

    Steve, I liked your lilac: they seem to be in a state of prayer..
    The devotion of Oswald Chambers of today is about our role of intercessory prayer… a state of prayer!
    Have a sensitive mind of what the Spirit tells you what and for whom to pray. This is so opbuilding.

    I was thinking about Kierkegaard, a christian writer from Danmark in the 19th century. He was complaining that the whole country was christian, everybody born in the country was without question christian. Kierkegaard said, this is not what Jesus wanted: He wanted people who follow Him with their whole heart and mind and body. Someone who chooses for Jesus himself, not because of being born in a country, but because they are fully convinced this is the only way to live. And so they will follow the moral laws too.
    Are we telling people to follow a moral law, or are we showing the life of Jesus Christ? People need to be turned to Jesus with their whole heart. This is my prayer for those whom God brings me in contact with everyday.
    But maybe I have accepted it that the laws in my country are not all in line with the bible, and I stopped fighting for them, just as Jesus did not come to change society His way. Instead I want to get in the state of prayer…

  70. poohpity says:

    Mart spoke about what James mentioned as Christ like wisdom in James 3 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the “meekness” of wisdom. 14 But if you have “bitter jealousy” and “selfish ambition” in your hearts, do not “boast” and be false to the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then “peaceable”, “gentle”, “open to reason”, “full of mercy” and “good fruits”, “impartial” and “sincere”. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in “peace” by those who make peace.

    Then what God says is pleasing to Him in Micah 6:8. Are we fair in dealing with people? Do we show mercy to those who have wronged us? Are we humble thinking of others before our own rights?

  71. His Sparrow says:

    Kingdomkid7

    We cannot shut up.
    Being the only voice crying out in the wilderness doesn’t mean we are wrong.

    Apathy is what got the U.S. in the trap it’s in.

    As far as the homosexual agenda goes, I would hope they would find their true love in Jesus and not the counterfeit “love” the world has offered. I’m so glad one of your students did; and I pray that many more people will.

    Love
    His Sparrow

  72. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thanks His Sparrow. You’re right. The lone voice that cries in the wilderness is a good example. I’m also reminded of the two blind beggars who sat on the way side and screamed all the louder when people told them to leave Jesus alone as Jesus left Jericho (Matthew 20: 29-34). Jesus stopped for them and healed them. So They received their sight and followed him. But what if they had listened to the people who told them to be quiet? I wonder.

    I have heard of several other stories of homosexuals who have discovered the love of Jesus that changed their lives. Another one is a woman who is a friend of my daughter’s. This woman’s life is totally changed. She got married and now has three children. It is such a happy story. But several people took the time to actually talk to her about Jesus. Yes, they showed the quiet and meek spirit that we must demonstrate. But this woman also saw that she was living in a sinful lifestyle and she was changed from the inside out. She would tell you that she’s glad people took the time to talk to her and to be her friend.

  73. poohpity says:

    I knew one person, very close to me, who was very angry and mean all the time and she cried out for a healing from the hand of the Master!! He healed her too and gave her a new heart although she still would get angry but she recognized it and would ask for forgiveness, never perfect but was in process of being changed until she went home to be with her Savior!! She came to the Lord because she heard of the great love He had for her.

  74. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… 11-8 2:49 post reply.
    I am sorry but I can not in all good conscience, let you say there are no degrees to sin.

    All wrong doing is sin, very true, but not all sin leads to death, according to the word of God.

    That would oppose too many verses in the word of God that clearly show us there are degrees when it comes to sin.

    I get your point about breaking one, is like breaking all, but there are degrees.

    According to Jesus some sins are greater though, John 19:11, NIV.

    If there is a greater sin then there must also be lesser sin.

    Let’s read Genesis 18:20 NIV and Exodus 32:30 NIV, and 1 Samuel 2:17 NIV.

    Ezekiel chapter 8 speaks of degrees also, first great abominations, then greater abominations, then greater than these, found in Ezekiel 8:6, 13, 15.

    Then, there is greater wickedness, Nehemiah 13:27 NIV and great transgression Psalm 19:13 NIV.

    Then in Moses time there were sins that required capital punishment, Deuteronomy 21:22

    How about the eternal sin in the New Testament described in Mark 3:29, or in, 1 John 5:16-17.

    I agree with the word of God, that there are degrees to sin.

    Jesus taught his disciples his most serious message about sin and he didn’t single out unbelievers either:
    Mark 9:42,43,44,45,46,47,48 NIV.

    The Lord clearly taught certain sin, not just unbelief could cause one to die spiritually and not enter the Kingdom of God.

    These are all consistant to the first mention of sin in Genesis 2:17 to Revelation 22:19 where we learn that a believer can have his share in the holy city revoked by sin.
    Gary

  75. bubbles says:

    Gary, can I ask you a question?

  76. oneg2dblu says:

    bubbles… why didn’t you?

  77. poohpity says:

    Gary, in that John passage who was it that brought Jesus to Pilate? If your answer was the religious leaders you are correct. Now why do you think Jesus said that their sin was greater? Remember to leave things in the context they were written anyone can pull anything out to prove a point but to leave it in the context we get a fuller meaning and a better picture of our God and what He is Teaching us.

    It seems to be human reasoning that would like to set degrees of sin to justify their own behavior. To say things like “Oh I am better than he/she because I would never do things like murder or homosexuality” but to God all sin leads to death so even calling someone a fool is a sin, every single solitary one of them is still sin and just think about all that is hidden from other people that we hold in our hearts. It is no secret to God. Adam and Eve “only” ate a piece of fruit.

    You also said, “That would oppose too many verses in the word of God that clearly show us there are degrees when it comes to sin.” I bet once you have read the Bible you will find that is not a true statement.

  78. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… once you have read the bible? “Ouch!”

    I hope you are not holding a grudge against a Brother in Christ!

    How about the sin of the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

    All sins the same?

    You may be right accepting for a little point, “There is a sin that can not be forgiven.”

    Is that not a true statement?

    Even if you believe in OSAS taken to its extremes, you can not overcome that word, or deny it!

    If you do, then aren’t you are taking the word of God out of context?

    Christ only says and does the Will of the Father, and He can not, and will not, ever remove that one sin.

    That one sin will not be covered by wishful thinking, or deceptive teachings, or lack of context, or any other misunderstanding.

    Sorry, you can have all your other sins lumped into a pile as you wish, but not that one!

    It is written, and I actually read it, how about you? :)

  79. poohpity says:

    I did not say that as an “ouch” or a put down. I know it takes time and you told me you have just begun to read the bible so it was said as an encouragement to continue the course.

  80. bubbles says:

    Gary, are you tired?

  81. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… I am sorry, I thought you said:” I bet once you have read the Bible you will find that is not a true statement.”
    It seems I’m out of context again.
    Please set me straight on this sdin issue.

    If all sins are the same, as you have quoted, and all sins are forgiven, then, in what context do we place that Mark 3:29 sin?

  82. oneg2dblu says:

    bubbles… Oh my, have I been too slow in answering something for you?

  83. oneg2dblu says:

    I’m like the little boy in Sunday school class, he knows the answer is Jesus, but he can not remember the question.”

  84. bubbles says:

    No, you have not been too slow in reply.

    I asked if you were tired because you appear to be.
    We don’t need to “work” our way into Heaven, or “keep” our salvation.

    We (Christians) are kept by the power of God.. . we are sealed until the day of atonement. . . nothing can separate us from the love of God. No one can pluck us out of the Father’s hand.

    We can rest in the power of God to “keep” us.
    If we could work to keep our salvation, we would end up boasting about what we did. We cannot do anything to stay saved. Our salvation in not in what “I” do, but in what He did for us. That’s why when we get to Heaven, we will cast our rewards at His feet. He is worthy, not us. Our “good things” are like filthy rags.

    It saddens me to read of your struggles with this security question. I care about you, and would like for you to understand the greatness of God’s power and love. God tells us to come unto Him. He will give you rest. Doing things to keep salvation will not give you rest and peace. God’s mercy is forever. He withholds what we deserve.

    I have messed up many times in life, and I thank God I can go to Him, confess it, and ask for forgiveness. When the Father looks at me, He sees Jesus’ blood. He died for my sins. We will never be perfect while we are in this human body. If we were perfect, we would be like God.

    Please receive this message in the intent it was written: out of concern.

    If you took time to read this message, thank you.

  85. poohpity says:

    Gary the conversation started when “you” were saying homosexuality as being a worse sin than holding anger in the heart of a believer towards another believer. Then the twists and turns started, I will not follow you down another rabbit hole. Do not read the bible if you find it offensive.

  86. oneg2dblu says:

    bubbles… Thank you for your concern it shows your real heart for another believer.
    Please know this: I have no struggles with my security. I am as secure as anyone who Follows Christ, no more no less. I get my beliefs from the same word you do, God’s!
    We all have the same Lord, the same Holy Bible, and the same Holy Spirit.
    Our belief system “should come” from one common source, Almighty God!

    Now here is the problem, if you believe in Unconditional Security, or the OSAS Doctrine as it is taught today, then you must believe that all your sins, before, during, and after your salvation are already forgiven, that is what they teach!

    I do not, I can not, and I will not, be sold into that, as long as there is a sin which can not be forgiven.

    According to Jesus Christ, who is God, and according to what the scripture reveals in Mark 3:28, 29 NIV “I tell you the truth, all sins and blasphemes of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”

    Whoever also means anyone who believes!

    If there can be an eternal sin, and there clearly can be, then there can not be unconditional security, if we can still sin after our initial salvation.

    We all know that after we are saved we still sin, and if we still sin, then we can still sin Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and then we would clearly lose our salvation.

    OSAS can not overcome that teaching, and if you believe it can, you have also been taught falsely.

    1 John 1:9 NIV “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us from all unrighteousness.”

    This verse is clearly written to believers, those who confess their sins, and that must mean a believer must confess his sins to find forgiveness after his salvation.

    OSAS says all sins before, during, and after salvation are already forgiven, and
    that is a conflicting teaching that would make this verse and many others completely unnecessary. But, they are there for a reason!

    Therefore, something is very wrong with this OSAS Doctrine, and the way it is taught and believed today!

    Your Salvation clearly has conditions! In His Love, Gary

  87. bubbles says:

    Thank you for your reply, Gary. I tried.

    No, my salvation does not have conditions. It is based on God’s unconditional love.

  88. tracey5tgbtg says:

    In Mark 3:29, Jesus is talking to teachers of religious law. In Mark 3:28 Jesus says that all sins of man will be forgiven.

    The teachers of religious law were so sure that their ability to know and follow the law was making them good that they could not see Jesus as their Savior. When Jesus casts out demons, rather than acknowledge that Jesus is God, they say he is a stronger demon, a prince of demons, and that is how he can cast out demons.

    If someone absolutely, point-blank cannot see Jesus, but rather sees Him as a demon, then they have never been saved. They have no salvation to lose, they have never received it.

    If someone falls on their knees before Jesus and knows in their heart that Jesus is God and He is the only way to the Father, then their faith has brought them salvation and it will never be taken away. I repeat, in Mark 3:28 Jesus says all sins of men will be forgiven. Anyone who asks for forgiveness receives it. It is a humbling thing to ask for forgiveness because it is an admission of sin.

  89. oneg2dblu says:

    bubbles… yes you are right, all things in Creation, are based on God’s unconditional love.

    I always thought that faith played a huge part, because without faith it is impossible to please God, but I may be wrong.

    It is faith in Jesus Christ that saves us, according to the Word of God.

    Only through a relationship with Jesus Christ, do we have our Salvation, according to the Word of God.

    You know… the basics of Christianity!

    Salvation only comes in and through one name, the name of Jesus Christ….and no other name I know of, but I may be wrong.

    There is no real relationship with God without first having a believing faith in Jesus Christ.

    To me, there is no salvation in believing in your salvation alone, like OSAS.

    I’m open to other interpretations, and OSAS definitely is not one of them!

    OSAS can make claim to so many false, empty, and void positions that it is staggering.

    But, like all things we only believe what we are capable of believing, and we do not hear what we do not understand.

    What humanity has no problem understanding today is a falsely taught doctrine, where one can claim all the promises and ignore all the warnings… welcome to the OSAS extreme position!

    I don’t buy it, but it is a very popular sell today, just ask Satan, I’m sure he loves it!

    Satan through this finely crafted and deceptive doctrine of belief as is taught by many today, like Charles Stanley, has multitudes of believers convinced beyond a shadow of any doubt, that all their continued sinning, their lack of any change, lack of producing any fruit, or having any form of worship, any prayer, any baptism, any ongoing relationship, any church, any love, and even any faith, all because you are home free, with the OSAS Doctrine as the way, as it is taught by many today.

    It is a lie from the Pit of Hell, it stands against any and all warnings in the bible, as it deceives many, it becomes like the Devil himself, and is followed like a god.

    I believe there is salvation through Jesus Christ and it comes only through an ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ!

    Satan, who also believes in Jesus, he has destroyed that relationship by believing falsely,
    as he now continues to sin freely, and serves us up his greatest deception, ongoing sin!

    Jesus Christ who is our salvation taught us to hate sin!

    OSAS doctrine says sin does not matter any longer, yet the whole world around us is going to Hell for their sins, of Disobedience and Unbelief.

    Just try to figure that out without an ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ, and without the Great Commission!

    I’m only trying my best to disciple here, by being a disciple here, and without an ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ, that process of making disciples is as void as salvation that stands on its own, completely useless.

    Thank you for your relpy, bubles. I tried!

    Gary

  90. poohpity says:

    Yes salvation has a condition on it, faith! There were two thief’s beside Jesus one who rejected Christ and one who believed in Him which went with Him to paradise? Did he earn his salvation? See also the parable of the hired workers in Matthew 20:1-16

  91. poohpity says:

    Even David realized that salvation in not something earned in Psalms 62:5-8 NIV.

  92. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… reply to your 11-9, 7:03 post.

    I am sorry that you are now pointing fingers at me by saying I started the conversation.

    I’ll take the heat if it helps any, “I am guilty of starting the conversation.”

    But, your actions now are equally guilty of stopping it.

    Instead of answering the question I asked you, you are now you are telling me not to read the bible, and of course, going to such extremes is no help at all.

    Here’s the question again, “If all sins are the same as you say they are, and all sins are forgiven, then, what do we do with the verse about the unforgivable sin, clearly spoken to both the saved and the unsaved?”

    That is where the conversation ended, and a more personal attack began.

    Now we are talking bunny holes and twists and turns and my finding the bible so…

    You see pooh, once you are sold out to the extreme OSAS position, then you have no failsafe when it comes to the actual words of the bible that would oppose it.

    So, you then attack the messenger, but if the messenger is turning you back to the words of Christ, then you blame the bunny holes and twists and turns.

    There are only the extremes left, when you follow the false teachers, and their teachings with the OSAS position falsely held by many today.

    Here’s one… “If any one does fall way, after their salvation, he was never saved in the first place.”

    Unfortunately, that also is not biblical either, as there are verses that oppose it.

    Here’s another problem for OSAS, Mark 15-16.

    I’m sure you don’t like than one either because it mentions another condition.

    Where do we go now? In His Love, Gary

  93. oneg2dblu says:

    Tracey… that lesson was given in the presence of the believers and unbeleivers as well, the follwers, the disciples, were there.

  94. Bill says:

    Do you guys ever get discouraged reading comments posted on BTA?

    I do.

    I see the same 8-10 people — a handful of whom nearly always ending up squabbling — posting the same half dozen or so responses to whatever Mart’s topic happens to be.

    Don’t you guys ever just want to lay aside the bickering, fault-finding, and get along? Or is this fun for you?

    America has never been more divided. This election was split nearly 50/50 — with only about 2.7 million votes separating the two candidates. The overall percentages were Obama 50%, Romney 48%. With 2% going to Ron Paul/Libertarian/Independents who are fed up with the system.

    That means, right now, for every one person rejoicing in Obama’s victory, there’s one person weeping.

    The opportunity for us to reach out to one another is huge. If Christianity was ever to be a force for good, a loving, healing, uniting force, now’s the time. This is the place.

    What’s “biblical,” people? What’s right? What’s wrong? You all claim to know the answers, yet you’re often bickering with one another about that very topic. How can that be? How can everybody claim to know the absolute truth, without a shadow of a doubt, yet end up bickering over what it means?

    Think about it. Please. It’s important that you do.

    There is a world of hurting people out there. Heck, I think there’s a world of hurting people right here, on BTA. Yet, we’re too busy spouting scripture, and jockeying to see who’s right or wrong (according to what we each think is the Bible’s true meaning) that we’re missing it.

    I sometimes come away from reading BTA feeling discourage, rather than uplifted and edified, my burdens made lighter by the joy and love.

    All I can do is ask everyone to please not let every thread deteriorate into a squabble, or a challenge, or a claim of absolute knowledge of what the Bible says and means. As others have pointed out before, this isn’t a Master’s course in Theology. We’re not defending our thesis. We’re a bunch of human beings trying to survive in the world.

    We need each other. Now more than ever. Can we just set aside the theological point-making and just embrace in love so that we can move on to more important things?

  95. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… 11-10 11:23 now we are talking only of earning salvation?
    From degrees of sin to now earning….

    I guess we all pick our battles where we feel most empowered.

    How about the Parable of the Sower, God, and the seed, His word?

    The seed, the word of God, fell in many places and it brought about fruit, as it sprang up. But because it had no good soil, no good root, it withered in the heat, or was trampled on the path, or eaten up, and it all died, accept the seed sown on good ground, well rooted, that seed survived, it produced fruit, more fruit, much fruit.
    It is not that everyone that first hears and believes is not saved, they are, but some only believe at first, then they fade away when the troubles of this life come and swallow them up.

    This parable speaks most about those who first believed and were saved, and then never make it into the Kingdom of God. Ouch!

    False teaching that is so prevalent in our world today is killing believers in droves, even though they first believed and were saved, they now believe in a false doctrine, where they now sin freely and believe in vein.

    You probably don’t like hearing that warning either. Gary

  96. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… you’ve made some very valid points, thank you.

    I heard that Governor Mike Huckeby said that, about ten million Christians did not vote in this last election.

    That may need more scrutiny…

    Separation of Church and State seems to only be working for the sake of State, and the Church is failing to respond for the sake of churched.

    With all this perceived imbalance of the voice of the Christianity, is it brought to bear in silence in the pulpit because churches fear most of all they will lose their tax free status, if they tell their people how to vote?

    I hope I have not just started another battle, or spreading rumors…. Gary

  97. bubbles says:

    Gary, please know what I wrote to you was done out of Christian love and concern. Nothing else. I was not trying to pick a fight or put you down or be contentious.

  98. poohpity says:

    Bill, thanks for sharing your opinion. Sometimes we have to heed our own advice. I would rather talk all day about God’s word and His teachings than to learn about the principles of other philosophies but that is just me. God and His words mean life to me not that I am perfect but just to speak of His unfailing love is what wins in my life. Sometimes conversations are just that conversations if they emote feelings in you that cause such despair maybe you might look at listening to them with a different voice rather than being suspect of attitudes of others that may not be there. Think the best rather than judging the worst in others.

  99. poohpity says:

    If Mart deems it necessary to intervene in a conversation then he will, it is after all his blog and everyone is welcome to comment but does ask us to follow certain guidelines to prevent hurting others.

  100. oneg2dblu says:

    bubbles… you echo my sentiments exactly.
    My heart in this matter is only for those who are saved, as they are saved for a reason, other than just their own salvation!
    Some of the saved are misled through false teaching to not even repent, for that would fall into works, and they believe there is no working out of their salvation, as it must remain totally unconditional for them.
    That is just a small part of the tragedy and frustration of the Divine Plan brought about by adhering to false teaching, false doctrine, and false beliefs.
    I believe for now, that we are lovingly moving on to other things.
    In His Love, Gary

  101. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… I may have missed your point in the hiring parable, if we are still talking about salvation not being earned.
    For each of those hired had conditions to meet. They all worked for their wage, and were paid exactly the same, one denarius for their work.

    What was your point in directing me there?

    I seem to have not gotten it, you know that I am quite challenged when it comes to figuring out the context.

    I did listen rather intently though to the recent teaching of this parable in Mart’s shared discussions with Alice and Haddon last week, on their program, Discover the Word.
    There were so many bunny trails discussed, from all different angles, and all very revealing, so I’m not really sure which one it is, that you are referencing here.

    Please enlighten me! Gary

  102. poohpity says:

    Gary, I had included it with the thieves on the cross because I have always understood that one of it’s meanings was about the grace of God and His gift of salvation even if it is in the last moments of life when one can not work it out. I had not ever thought about it meaning anything about working but I am still learning too.

  103. poohpity says:

    Gary, I also wanted you to know I am unable to enlighten anyone. Only God can make His Word come alive to those who read it. I really do not know if that is considered enlightenment or if that is not more of an eastern philosophy type of thing.

  104. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh…I do not know much about eastern philosophy, I was just looking for some more specific information about that parable.
    Thanks for explaining that to me, now it makes more sense, I think…
    One of the angles that was given about the landowner was that he had compassion on those who stood in the market place all day without anyone else hiring them,
    so he did.
    But, finding what drove that compassion was difficult to know for sure, because he might have been motivated to get his crop in more quickly.
    But, his generosity at the end of the day was well beyond the norm for sure, so much so, that it upset the ones who toiled all day for the same pay.
    We could liken it to those of us who have known Christ all our lives and served him more than others, like the one on the cross, and only to receive the same salvation.
    Of course, having those feelings means their hearts were not right because they knew first thing in the morning that they would get paid one denarius, and in the morning the were very pleased, in fact they were much more pleased having gainful work to do, then those who had to stand all day waiting to be hired.
    There are so many things going on in that parable that I wanted you to qualify what your explanation was.
    Please forgive my inappropriate word choice, but my Standard Encyclopedic Dictionary says: Enlighten… To give revealing or broadening knowledge to; cause to know.
    I thought you might like to be “enlightened” on my use of that word.
    It seems we are all sharing with each other here what we know and hopefully also learning what we don’t know, even about each other.
    Here’s a gift I got from a teaching at church tonight…
    A disciple is a lifelong learner, constantly connected to Christ, who is learning that we are to be discipled first by Him, before we can disciple others.
    Gary

  105. poohpity says:

    Amen! That is what I admire about you Gary is your continued pursuit of knowledge about God. ;-)

    I was reminded this morning that Jesus did not say, “I am the way the truth and the life and it is by your works that earns your way to heaven” but Jesus did say, ““I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

  106. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… did you also notice in today’s ODB what else was said in the verse cited in Revelation 2:10 that you left out in your other post, in the God Hates Us?

    “Be faithful until the end and I will give you the crown of glory.”

    Does that mean that we are also to be faithful until the end?

    Does that mean that (if) we are faithful until the end we get the crown of glory?

    Is that a condition for us to consider?

    I just want to continue the context fully, and being that we are always learning, perhaps we should not leave out anything.

    Revelation 2:11 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.”

    Does it mean that the he who overcomes (should also be us)?

    Meaning that we (must) also overcome to not be hurt by the second death?

    I think I see a few more (conditions) in those verses that you may not see in them, and that may be something for us to consider, because those verses are clearly speaking to those who were already saved.

    Just a thought…

    But, that is how I see it!

    I wonder what you actually see in those verses.

    I am open to learn more and more about what actually applies to those like you and others here, who now aspire to the OSAS condition, and what verses are really useless to ever challenge them, or even be considered! Gary

  107. poohpity says:

    I see God’s grace and the power through Him to overcome anything that may detract us from putting Him first in our lives. Then when we are not faithful, He IS. That is what I see in every page of the Bible. May His name be Glorified, not ours.

    After all we do toss those crowns at His feet when we realize it is because of Him that we even have a heavenly home. All Glory is given to God, the great “I AM”.

  108. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… yes, His name, “I AM,” should be Glorified!

    I only wish the world could see His name Glorified in the behaviors of churched today. But unfortunately, the Carnal Christian today are still raping, killing lying, cheating, stealing, even divorcing at the ssme rate as the world, and the doctine they believe in, allows them to be, and remain, as Carnal Chrisitians that look just like the rest of the world, thinking they are already doing everything they need to, to receive their reward and get to go to Heaven?

    That absurd deception was never anything Christ taught, promoted, our supported, not ever!

    But, that type of teaching and thinking has destroyed the churches effectivness in the world today. The world, who now see “no change” in Chrsitian behavior, because of a falsely taught doctrine that ssys, leave no sin behind, continue on being who you are, for you are already forgiven. No matter what!

    The very same lifestyle that brought one to confessing their pathetic need for Christ, now goes unchnaged, as it celebrates and brings your new unchanged life into the dressing room of Heaven.

    Many today are getting their deceptive doctrine from modern teachers, all the corrupted side notes, or the man manipulated commentarries rather then from the direct word of God.

    Do you know why the early church were so effective?

    There was something different, holy, and pure about those who were promoting it. They walked in the outwardly seen Power of the Holy Spirit. They were setting a Chrsit-like example, instead of this tainted false doctrine of eternal security that has ruined the churches that are now so filled with unchanged Carnal Christians.

    There really should not be any carnality allowed in the church, if fact it should be tossed out with the trash.

    These ineffective for any change churches today, embrace carnality at every turn, not wanting to offend anyone, and doing so, says to me, something is very wrong!

    Embracing, or dimissing all this carnality in others is not really love at all, it is disobedience excused by sinful man, and run amuck, for the sake of not offending anyone.

    Shame on us, the church of the modern day saved forever, for our allowing sinfilled wolves in sheeps clothing get our approval and go behind our alters to teach us their trash, where purity used to be called for, and taught.

    The bible is a very quick read if you gloss over all the warnings, or aviod them completely, and just grab the promises for yourself.

    Eternal security is saying I’m okay just the way “I” am!

    It makes me wonderr which “I am” we are really worshiping today.

    I’m on my small screen so typos may be rampant… but the message is unadulterated truth!

    Read it and weep, repent, and be restored to again walk with and worship the correct and greater I AM! Gary

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