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Did Jesus Die for a Tree?

Did Jesus die on a tree not only for us, but also for the tree on which he died?

The question made me uncomfortable.

But I couldn’t deny that a broken trust and resulting curse have done more than tear  into our humanity. As the Bible sees creation as full of the glory of God, it also describes all nature as groaning with us under the present weight of the curse.

Yet, the vision of Revelation sees another day when “Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them” declare,… “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”  (Rev 5:11-13).

Maybe it’s not just a matter of whether we dare suggest that Jesus died not only on a tree but for the tree.  Maybe, most realistically, it’s just a matter of time before we join all nature in declaring that the creation that was cursed because of our sin, has been liberated by the same death that Christ endured for us…

For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills shall break forth into singing before you, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands” (Isa 55:12)


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72 Responses to “Did Jesus Die for a Tree?”

  1. jenricks says:

    you seem to be bother about the tree, where the Lord die does not matter, he die for u and me i do not belive the Lord die not a tree.

  2. BruceC says:

    Mart,

    I think that the topic you bring up should remind us all of just how devastating sin is to ALL of creation.
    Before the fall Adam named all the animals as they passed before him. Animals have changed, plant life has changed, the way the earth is watered has changed (since the flood). All our sins has become a poison to the entire universe. Even during the Millennium, (from what I have studied of it) there will be sin present. Otherwise Satan would not be able to out after his 1,000 years of being in chains and deceive the nations again proving just how depraved with sin humanity is.
    Then is when the Lord creates a new heaven and a new earth and for all eternity sin no longer exists and death with it. He makes ALL things new.
    So yes, He did die to remove the curse that has infected everything. All creation claps it’s hands and shouts forth the glory and praises of our Lord; but only the born-again believer truly hears it.
    We do not praise or worship nature as some do in this age and in ages past; but we along with nature are created to praise, glorify, and worship the Lord.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  3. SFDBWV says:

    The Book of Revelation; meat and potatoes, no baby food here.

    The first thing that came to mind with this topic is *when* the conversation occurs. The point in earth time seems to be just before judgment comes to the earth. The seven seals that the Lamb of God is about to open are bitter and apocalyptic, the end of the world as we have known it is at hand.

    The second thing that stood out to me is the statement found written in Revelation 5:3 and related to it Revelation 5:13.

    Who is worthy to open the seals? There is no man in heaven, in the earth or *under* the earth able to open the book.

    In Revelation 5:6, 7 in the midst of the throne stood the Lamb of God as it had been slain, and when He took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne Revelation 5: 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 it is then that all of creation aware of this event proclaimed Him worthy and all those aware began to worship and praise Him.

    Yes even the *creatures* which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth…and such as are in the sea. *Saying* “Blessing and honor and glory and power, be unto Him that setteth on the throne and unto the Lamb for ever and ever,”

    The uniqueness of this *Lamb* is that He is more than man, more than any created creature, for no man was found worthy and all of creation bows down to Him and recognizes His place in all of existence.

    Any person who *communes* with nature will tell you they can sense something other worldly in it. Where presently we can not clearly talk to or understand the language of nature as we do between men there is a presence we can perceive from it.
    It seems in our fallen state we can not communicate properly with nature, but before the fall we did and after apocalypse we will again.

    There are few events that occur that do not have collateral damage, and certainly the fall of man affected all of creation and with the full and completed redemption of man will come the full and total repair to all of it as well.

    So in that sense yes, Jesus’ sacrifice for mankind sets all of creation back in balance including the *tree*.

    Steve

  4. Mart De Haan says:

    Some of the tension in this discussion is that a person created in the image of God has a sense of personal identity and destiny that seems to be in immeasurable contrast to any individual tree.

  5. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –
    We are experiencing an amazing season in weather on the whole earth. I am not astute in the science of wind and water and land enough to say for certain that the warming of the atmosphere is due to carbon dioxide pollution, as some scientists say. Large destructive storms are an indicator that powerful forces are at work, and the destruction is the evidence.

    The prophets warned in the long run-up to the Babylonian exile that the land would have its Sabbaths restored in the absence of human evil. The prophet Jeremiah asked, “How long do we have to put up with this— the country depressed, the farms in ruin—
    And all because of wickedness, these wicked lives?
    Even animals and birds are dying off
    Because they’ll have nothing to do with God
    and think God has nothing to do with them.” Jeremiah 12:4

    Our hope is in Messiah to restore the relationship that is ruined between God and his creation. We have not seen the full restoration yet.

    Mart, you wrote:
    “But I couldn’t deny that a broken trust and resulting curse have done more than tear into our humanity. As the Bible sees creation as full of the glory of God, it also describes all nature as groaning with us under the present weight of the curse.” (Romans 8:19, 20, 21)

    Prophetic words concerning the land ruined by wickedness is repeated in 2 Chronicles 36:21: “This is exactly the message of God that Jeremiah had preached: the desolate land put to an extended Sabbath rest, a seventy-year Sabbath rest making up for all the unkept Sabbaths.”

    Jesus has made the ultimate sacrifice for the whole creation. It seems to me there is a lesson for us in the history of God’s long patience with Israel and Judah before they were removed from the land they could not manage justly.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  6. saled says:

    This topic reminds me of C.S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia
    as well as the writings of Tolkien. These writers sometimes portray animals, and yes even trees, as having a voice. I agree with Steve that we sense something otherworldly in nature. Imagine as in Isaiah 55 that Mart quotes above, the mountains and hills breaking forth in singing and the trees clapping their hands. I think both Lewis and Tolkien had a tremendous knowledge of the Bible that shows in their works.

  7. saled says:

    Just read Mart’s comment about the contrast between a person’s sense of identity and that of an individual tree. Well, I have to say that I know some trees better than I know some people! I also notice how the native tribes here in America respect nature and treat plants, animals, and mountains as having personalities. Yes, we would be wrong to worship these works of creation. But to respect them, no we would not be wrong.

    Looking forward to the rest of this discussion.

  8. fadingman says:

    In a similar sense, did Jesus die for the sacrificial animals as well so that they would no longer need to be killed in our place? Can you imagine, if those countless Old Testament lambs, goats, oxen, etc. knew God would send His Son to die for man, how they would have looked forward to it?

    I had thought of this before, that perhaps it would make for a good children’s story.

  9. tracey5tgbtg says:

    I’m not sure why thinking Jesus died for a tree would be uncomfortable. God cares for His entire creation. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.

    All creation worships its Creator. Luke 19:40

    And I like to think of that withered fig tree being renewed in heaven.

    God created man to rule over all other living things. Gen 1:26-30
    And we are to take care of all creation. I think we feel closest to God when we are out under the sky with all of nature.

    But nature isn’t God. It is one of His works. When people start talking about Mother Earth, now that makes me uncomfortable.

  10. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All–

    Tracey! I agree with your statememt:

    “But nature isn’t God. It is one of His works. When people start talking about Mother Earth, now that makes me uncomfortable.”

    Pagans, animists and alien-ists (is that a word?)have some spiritual notions that are ignorant of the Creator — and therefore dishonor His name. We have the privilege of glorifying God above any feature of His creation.

    Bottom line becomes how Christian conservationist work with mystical naturists to the benefit of the environment. Perhaps love the “nature child” and hate the denial of the divine Creator? These also are created in His image…

    Blessings,
    Maru

  11. poohpity says:

    If I thought for a moment that a tree had a soul or a heart then I would agree that Christ died not only on it but for it. What I do know is that in Genesis 1:29-30 the tree as well as all plants were a means for support of life for all those things that were created. As it was in the beginning it will be again in the end that the tree will support life for food and medicine. Rev 22:2-3 A tree is not a creature to me as mentioned in Rev 5:11

    I agree that all life has suffered the consequences of sin and will until that day when God brings us into the promised New Heaven and New Earth when ALL things will be new and most importantly we will be in the presence of the Lord for eternity that tree will be right there with us still doing what it was created to do sustain life.

  12. bubbles says:

    George Washington Carver, the botanist, wrote of the importance of crop rotation. He wrote, “Do not sin against the land.”

    What grieves my heart is how humans mistreat animals, waste woodlands, pollute the air, oceans, and rivers. So many animals suffer at the hand of humans.

    The sin of mankind hurts the land in addition to the curse upont nature brought by the fall.

  13. bill34sl says:

    If the WHOLE creation groan from the weight of the curse, why would a loving Creator pick only those that are on the “top of the list” to die for, and leave those in the bottom in oblivion? If we can imagine the New Earth void of trees, then maybe they’re not worth dying for. But God loves all His creation no matter how big or small their potential is in eternity. Certainly, Jesus died for the trees too. The only creation NOT groaning for liberation nor saved from death is the “fallen angelic realm”. That’s why the Lake of Fire is made for them. Brothers and sisters, we have to make it very sure we don’t go with them there. WE HAVE TO CONTINUALLY UPROOT ALL SINS IN OUR LIVES. God will surely help us if He sees we are persistent.

    God bless you all.

  14. SFDBWV says:

    I can still recall the feeling I would experience when I was a child and pondered eternity and the never ending universe.

    It would cause me to shiver almost in terror.

    I didn’t like the feeling, so over time if I thought about it I would callous it over.

    If you concede that as is said in John 1:1, 2, 3 everything that exists came from God, then everything that exists is a part of God, everything.

    If you then accept what Jesus said in John 4:34 and John 5:34 and John 6:38 and John 17:1 Jesus also goes to the cross for God as well as man, all of creation including the Creator is served by the act of the cross.

    Steve

  15. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    All that may be added, Steve and Randy, is that the work (service) of the cross of Christ is the reconciliation of all of creation to the Creator God, Father – Son & Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:11-16)

    This entails the transformation of those created in His image — and all else comes in by his/her dominion. (Romans 12:2)

    Blessings,
    Maru

  16. poohpity says:

    Steve, that sounds a lot like Pantheism which is closely related to atheism. I do not believe that everything that exists is a part of God nor do I believe that Cross was for God. That type of thinking seems to far from what I have learned in scripture. Jesus did go to the Cross for God as in doing the will of God, it may have served God by restoring our relationship with Him but God was not served by the Cross.

  17. Bill says:

    Mart,

    Interesting topic. Lots of ramifications.

    I believe the answer is Yes. Jesus also died for the tree.

    And the lion. And the butterfly. And the daffodil. And the earthworm. And the elephant. And the sea urchin. And the…

    You get the picture.

    If there’s one area in which I believe Christians have seriously dropped the ball it’s in the area of the earth, our environment, being stewards of other living creatures. Our cavalier attitude toward being ruler of all animals, and our seeming insatiable need to develop, build, expand, has made us worthy targets from non-Christians and the Liberal Left. We label them “tree huggers.” They label us “Capitalist pigs raping the land slaughtering the animals, even wearing their fur on our backs.”

    So it’s another bifurcation: The tree-hugging Libs vs. the earth-raping Conservatives. Or, in spiritual terms, the “tolerant,” and “compassionate” Liberals (usually non-Christians) who want to save the whales and trees and streams…versus the “narrow-minded” and “heartless” Conservatives (Christians) who want to take, take, take until the earth is barren and polluted.

    I think there’s a lot of truth in what the Liberal Left has been saying. Christians should have led the charge to protect God’s creations, big and small. We did not. The Liberals stepped up and now own that argument. We may forever be seen as Capitalist swine who don’t give a rat’s keister about the environment.

    @pooh, you wrote (February 23, 2013 at 12:13 pm):

    “If I thought for a moment that a tree had a soul or a heart then I would agree that Christ died not only on it but for it. What I do know is that in Genesis 1:29-30 the tree as well as all plants were a means for support of life for all those things that were created.”

    Whether or not a tree has a soul isn’t the point. Trees are alive. All plants and animals are alive. They all feel pain to one degree or another. It’s precisely the attitude that they are “lesser” than we are that has enabled us to make very foolish, short-sighted mistakes regarding our stewardship of the planet.

    I believe we could have learned a great deal from Native Americans and others who revere, even worship aspects of nature. They knew which trees and plants to use for medicines. They knew how to make sure they weren’t killing all the animals wantonly that they used for clothing and food.

    We entered the picture and changed all that. We thought them savages and heathens. We converted them from their wicked ways. We destroyed their animals. We tore down their forests.

    I call that a tragedy.

    @bill34sl, you wrote (February 23, 2013 at 7:04 pm):

    “That’s why the Lake of Fire is made for them. Brothers and sisters, we have to make it very sure we don’t go with them there. WE HAVE TO CONTINUALLY UPROOT ALL SINS IN OUR LIVES. God will surely help us if He sees we are persistent.”

    More works-based theology that will forever keep us wondering if we’ll make it to heaven if we can just figure out how to do X, Y, and Z. Please.

    @bubbles, you wrote (February 23, 2013 at 2:06 pm):

    “What grieves my heart is how humans mistreat animals, waste woodlands, pollute the air, oceans, and rivers. So many animals suffer at the hand of humans.

    “The sin of mankind hurts the land in addition to the curse upont nature brought by the fall.”

    Amen. And Amen.

    That’s precisely the issue to me. Christ died for the tree probably not directly, as if the tree had a soul. (But, frankly, how do we know what living beings have or have not?) I believe Christ died for the tree secondarily, so that it — and the rest of creation — will benefit from us (a) being born again and receiving more wisdom and compassion than we had before, and God (b) creating a new heaven and a new earth at the end of days. All the earth’s pollution and destruction, all of the pain and suffering enduring by animals at our whim, will cease.

    @remarutho, you wrote (February 23, 2013 at 10:42 am):

    “Pagans, animists and alien-ists (is that a word?) have some spiritual notions that are ignorant of the Creator — and therefore dishonor His name. We have the privilege of glorifying God above any feature of His creation.

    “Bottom line becomes how Christian conservationist work with mystical naturists to the benefit of the environment. Perhaps love the “nature child” and hate the denial of the divine Creator? These also are created in His image…”

    I don’t have a problem working side by side with pagans. Or naturists. Or satanists, for that matter. I don’t have a problem working side by side with prostitutes, drunkards, liars, gay people, adulterers, and thieves, for that matter.

    My job is not to label people and look down on those who are not born again. My job is to do my part to demonstrate what God’s love did for everyone, and to give people the hope that they, too, can experience that.

    So the word “pagan” will never be uttered by my lips. Nor “heathen.” Nor any other epithet. If people who are not born again want me to help them save some beached whale, I’ll do it. If I need more people to help shore up a dam before it bursts, and the only people around are “pagans” and “heathens,” I’ll ask them to please lend a hand.

    If I discover that the local chicken farmer — even though he’s a prominent Christian — is mistreating his stock and causing them to suffer, and the only people blowing the whistle on what’s going on are the “pagans” and “animists,” I’ll join with the “pagans” and “animists” to shut my brother down, force him to improve conditions for his animals.

    I truly believe we have stop bifurcating reality all the time, labeling this group, or that group, being wary of this, or avoiding that. Even making a hard distinction between human beings and the rest of the earth.

    People are suffering. The earth (calling it “Mother Earth” doesn’t make me uncomfortable — it’s just a phrase) is suffering. Animals are suffering. There is death and decay and destruction all around us.

    If it helps me to be more compassionate toward all to think that Jesus died for me AND for the tree, I’ll do it. I’m not too proud to side with non-Christians in order to save others. Including suffering animals. And trees.

    @pooh, you wrote (February 24, 2013 at 9:34 am):

    “Steve, that sounds a lot like Pantheism which is closely related to atheism. I do not believe that everything that exists is a part of God nor do I believe that Cross was for God. That type of thinking seems to far from what I have learned in scripture.”

    I doubt Steve is a pantheist. However, I do think Steve understands the connectedness of living creatures. God created all we see around us. Life is from God. Therefore, everything that lives has, however you care to define it, a spark of God in it. If it did not, it would not be alive.

    Saying that does not make me a pantheist. It just means I understand deeply that God created all, and I should revere His creation because of it.

    I’ve blathered enough. Sorry to take up your time.

    These are all my opinions. I make no claim of authority, or correctness. Discard everything I’ve written if it doesn’t align with what you believe.

    Blessings to you,

    Bill

  18. narrowpathseeker says:

    I also tend to see/feel/hear the beauty, power, and all around magnificence of God in His creation. I am always amazed how the comments here so frequently coincide with my prayerful communication with the Lord.

    Last night after reading a few chapters of Acts, I longed to hear His voice as clearly as Peter and Saul heard Him in their time and I asked Him about it.

    TODAY!!…..it is 11:37am as I write this and I have not seen even ONE bird at my feeders around the yard…NOT ONE as yet. This past Summer at the river I experienced a time of no birds and no wild life and I was very aware of their absence and very bothered by it.

    While I am very aware of the absence of the birds this morning, I am NOT bothered by it. I am thinking, “Who but GOD could keep the hungry birds away from the feeders for an entire morning?……. and thus communicating with me that He is in ABSOLUTE control of everything and clearly communicating with me as requested!!

  19. kingdomkid7 says:

    Hello everyone. I’ve been away and missed a lot. Hope everyone is well. This topic reminds me of two things: One — had a friend once who had some very unorthodox spiritual views. My daughter and I spent at day at the beach with her, and she was amazed at early evening with the fact that the moon controlled the tides. I said to her quietly (and non-judgmentally) that I was amazed at (and by) the God who had created both the moon and the sea. I don’t think she liked that reminder that the creation is wonderful but the Creator even moreso.
    Two — I was recently working with a group of students as an advisor in a debate competition. The competition was about animal rights. Apparently, this group thinks we should all stop eating meat, because it’s wrong to eat “sentient” beings. They want this for them, and for us too. This is why we have to worship God, but respect His creation. If we get it twisted, we lose our ability to reason properly and we start worshipping trees, tides, moons and stars. Just my opinion.

  20. SFDBWV says:

    Yesterday was my mother in law’s birthday she is 94. My sister in law and some of her children and their children and some of their children came and had a gathering there at her house.

    I keep her car turned around facing out of her garage so she can drive out of it when she wants, and so today she took herself to church.

    There are plenty of people who would take her, but she likes going when she can and driving, so since it is only a couple hundred feet from her house to the church we make it happen for her.

    Her given name is Pauline, but she also answers to “Crick”, Polly, or for some “Mom Mom” and Mother.

    When I was a teenager and so then a young man I used to love and set with her mother and ask her about “the old days” and she loved to tell me all about them, her name was “Bessie”; she had 14 children 11 of which lived.

    Now Crick and I talk about her and my old days now, and how every thing has changed and how some things haven’t changed at all.

    Yesterday we also buried an old friend, I wonder what tomorrow will bring.

    Praying you all have a blessed day. Narrowpathseeker I am glad you can hear that still small voice in your heart and recognize who He is.

    Steve

  21. poohpity says:

    Bill, I would not expect you to understand that God is not in everything since it seems that you have such a proclivity against the Bible. I did not accuse Steve of being a Pantheist but what he stated is exactly what they claim that god is in everything. If God were in everything then that would follow that we could then worship everything because god is in it. The use of John 1:1-3 is a description of Jesus being God in the flesh. God created everything. God was in Jesus period and that is how I believe. I try very hard not to syncretise different philosophies with what I know to be truth that is found in the Bible. Many folks in the times of the NT as they do now mix many trains of thought or philosophies to what the Bible says and that is like trying to mix oil with water either you believe what the Bible says or you do not but it does not really need anything added to it. I think it is wonderful just like it is and is so full of truth and is a guideline to live a holy life, our road map as well as a peek into God’s character and so much more.

    If there was only person alive on the face of the earth then I bet Jesus would have still went to the cross but if there was only one tree alive on the face of the earth I do not feel that there would have been a need.

  22. poohpity says:

    I meant only one person not only person, lol.

  23. Bill says:

    Wow, Pooh. What did I do to warrant your venom today? Such disrespect and sarcasm direct at me. Why?

    At February 24, 2013 at 9:34 am you wrote: “Steve, that sounds a lot like Pantheism…”

    At February 24, 2013 at 9:46 am I wrote: “I doubt Steve is a pantheist. However, I do think Steve understands the connectedness of living creatures. God created all we see around us. Life is from God. Therefore, everything that lives has, however you care to define it, a spark of God in it. If it did not, it would not be alive.

    “Saying that does not make me a pantheist. It just means I understand deeply that God created all, and I should revere His creation because of it.”

    At February 24, 2013 at 3:34 pm you wrote: “Bill, I would not expect you to understand that God is not in everything since it seems that you have such a proclivity against the Bible. I did not accuse Steve of being a Pantheist but what he stated is exactly what they claim that god is in everything.”

    I’m trying to see how you’d turn on me from those above-quoted exchanges, where the disrespect toward me would come from. Or how you’d read into what I wrote something I didn’t write, or didn’t intend.

    I didn’t say God was in everything. Nor did I say — any more than Steve did — that we should worship everything. Please re-read my words. What I wrote came directly from the Bible — in fact, the first chapters of Genesis. God created the world, and all that is in it. He made living creatures. He made everything we see around us. Last I checked, that’s in my Bible.

    I’ve quote scriptures at length here. That got me nothing but a sarcastic response from Gary. I’ve stated I’ve been a Christian for 30+ years and that I read the Bible often. I have some 10 Bibles here in my home, in many translations. I love reading the Bible.

    So why would you insult me and show such incredible disrespect by writing this: “Bill, I would not expect you to understand that God is not in everything since it seems that you have such a proclivity against the Bible”?

    That came out of left field — especially since I’ve congratulated you recently on posting such clear, helpful words in Mart’s threads.

    What am I saying or doing that displeases you? Conversely, what could I say or do that would please you? How can I make it so you don’t turn on me in an ugly way every so often? It’s hurtful.

  24. BruceC says:

    narrow,

    I know what you mean about “no birds”. Many times while I was hunting I would sit for hours in one spot and not see a squirrel; either red or grey or a bird or even hear a bird. Just dead silence. It’s almost surreal or creepy and it has happened many times. And it had nothing to do with me hunting as I was not hunting them; and at other times have had chickadees perch on my hat, my boot toes, or even the end of a gun barrel and sing to me. Chipmunks sitting next to me and mink coming up to me and staring at me. Most times I forget I am even hunting and wind up talking with my Father in Heaven.

    Bill,

    I know what you mean by the attitude of Native Americans but they were not always the nature conservationists some would have you believe. I have read many accounts of the Iroquois in my area and by sometime in the 1600’s most, if not all, beaver were gone from what is now NY because the Indians were affected by the same greed as the traders and hunted them out. Then they warred against other tribes to get their beaver hunting grounds etc. So ALL humanity has blood on their hands so-to-speak. And when the forests were used as much as they could they moved their “towns” to another area. Of course in time those used areas replenished. There is good and evil in all humans. Yes the “pagan” can do what is right and the saved do what is wrong. Thankfully our father sent Christ because none of us can do enough good and earn our way. When NA was “discovered” it was almost like another paradise in a way; and in the same way all involved blew it. Just like we would today. But I am not replying to put you down brother. I think we can learn from NA’s even today.

    God Bless All! You are in my prayers!

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  25. Bill says:

    You’re absolutely right, Bruce.

    I had forgotten that some Native Americans were just as short sighted as some settlers were.

    It would be foolish of me to assume ALL Native Americans were wise caretakers of the earth, just as it would be equally foolish of me to think that all white people were crass, narrow-minded buffoons bent on raping the land. That kind of bifurcation has been portrayed in books and films before (Centennial, for one, my favorite miniseries of all time – despite the heavy-handed stereotypes), and I’ve resented it. So I’m glad you made it clear

    The entirety of your post tonight was meant for my eyes. Well written. Wise. Insightful.

    Thank you!

  26. bubbles says:

    No, Jesus did not die for trees. Humans are different from the rest of His creation. Jesus died to save people’s souls.

    What is the purpose of this conversation anyway?

  27. remarutho says:

    Good Evening All —

    Bubbles, thank you for your laser-like question! Blessings upon your head. It seems to me Mart has asked a symbolic question about the extent of God’s sovereignty in Christ. It is poetic and ironic that the very “tree” upon which he was sacrificed is restored to a pure purpose by his resurrection from death. The extent of God’s sovereignty is unlimited.

    We are a fallen race — humankind — created in God’s image. The image has been marred — yet is restored in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son. One has paid the atonement price for all who believe in him.

    Jesus came not to judge — but to restore the image of God in who ever comes to him. When humanity is restored, the creation will be as well. He did not judge, but he also does not leave us as he found us. He restores our full humanity by the sacrifice of his own flesh. Our dominion (stewardship) over nature remains, even in our separation from God on account of sin.

    Blessings on all here,
    Maru

  28. bubbles says:

    I apologize if it came across as being hateful. I was trying to ask an honest question.

  29. Bill says:

    @Bubbles, I don’t think anyone here suggests that Jesus died to save trees directly, because they were lost in their sins. Only human beings were made in God’s image and needed to be saved.

    We’re talking about it because Mart raised the question.

    I believe Jesus died to save humanity first and foremost. But a secondary “salvation” will occur when the new heaven and the new earth are created (Rev. 21:1). At that time, as Mart noted, the sin that came into the world when Adam fell will be no more. So, in a sense, the tree will also be “saved.” Metaphorically speaking.

    Mart’s blogs do not always have to be literal, quick, or even easy. I believe he sometimes posts things to make us think, perhaps even to see how far our minds can wander, or how deeply we can ponder.

    Nothing wrong with that. I think it’s fun to exercise my mind now and then. Gets the cobwebs out.

  30. remarutho says:

    No apology called for, Bubbles, as far as I am concerned. There have been some close, but not on-target answers to Mart’s question here. I am simply and honestly thanking you for asking, “What is the purpose of this conversation?”

    I truly believe the original question, and therefore the conversation is about the infinite power and grace of our God. While trees are not redeemed in the same way humans are, the result of Jesus’ amazing, divine giving of himself affects even the trees and animals and stars.

    Yours in Christ,
    Maru

  31. poohpity says:

    Bill, there was no venom at all in my response to your comment. Try reading it with a different voice. I would go back over and bring up the many things that have been said to bring a negative light to the Bible and reading it while highlighting different philosophies. I said it “seems” which to me is an observation nothing concrete. “A spark of God in it or it would not be alive” lead me to believe that you think there is a spark of God in creation which seems to say that God is in it just like the Pantheists. If it is disrespectful or sarcastic to disagree with you or voice my opinion which was not how my heart or mind works does that mean you were being sarcastic and disrespectful to Gary when you were reaming him? That may be your M.O. it is not mine.

  32. Bill says:

    I don’t buy it, Pooh. There’s no possible way you can write this one moment:

    “Bill, I would not expect you to understand that God is not in everything since it seems that you have such a proclivity against the Bible”

    And then write this another moment:

    “Bill, there was no venom at all in my response to your comment. Try reading it with a different voice.”

    There’s only one voice in which to read your initial comment. If not venom, then at least sarcasm, and disrespect for me and my opinions. Your “M.O.” appears to be to attack, then retreat and blame the other person for pointing it out. I’m not the only one here who has mentioned that. You do it often.

    What does this mean:

    “I would go back over and bring up the many things that have been said to bring a negative light to the Bible and reading it while highlighting different philosophies.”

    Do you refer to me? At what point have I bought a “negative light to the Bible”?

    I understand you don’t like me or my opinions. I get that you think I don’t hold the Bible in high regard (even though I do). I realize you don’t like me to quote anything other than the Bible.

    I can apologize for a lot of things. But I can’t apologize for being different from you. I would appreciate it if you’d just accept that and quit attacking me.

    Disagreeing with me is absolutely and completely acceptable. I love it. I welcome it. I learn from contrast — as I’ve mentioned many, many, many times before. What I don’t cotton to is sarcasm and disrespect on top of disagreements. The former is wonderful. The latter is unacceptable.

    If you can disagree without being passive-aggressive and sarcastic, wonderful. I’d love to hear from you. I have much I can learn from your passion and wealth of knowledge. But please don’t keep sparring with me. Life is too short to have to put up with that all the time.

    Deal?

  33. bubbles says:

    Bill, I do not see the purpose in this conversation, not why are we having this conversation.

  34. Bill says:

    I don’t know what the purpose is, either, Bubbles. :)

    Maybe Mart’s just trying to see if we’re paying attention.

  35. bubbles says:

    Humans have treated each other horribly. They have hurt and killed and abused each other.

    Humans have abused, hurt, and killed innocent animals down through history. Many do not care.

    Humans have destroyed forests, cut down trees that were centuries old, ruined the oceans, rivers, torn the tops from mountains, polluted the atmosphere, and made a mess out of everything they have touched. Many do not care. They have done this out of their own selfishness.

    I am sick of this world.

  36. Bill says:

    I know what you mean, Bubbles. I know precisely what you mean. I think many of us do.

    I often wonder how much more this planet — and its people — can take. It seems to be unraveling, getting worse every day.

    This is why I keep harping on love. And being wary of legalism/orthodoxy. I believe legalism and orthodoxy spring from the same selfishness that results in the kinds of things you listed. Christianity should be free from that. We should be the freest, lightest, most joyful people on the planet. Yet, we are not.

    But as long as people have compassionate hearts like you do, we will be okay as a species. We just need to spread that compassion around to more people. And do our best to care for the world (and its creatures) that God gave us. :)

    Chin up. We have God. We have each other. We have prayer. Greater is he who is in us. Don’t forget that.

  37. remarutho says:

    “Maybe, most realistically, it’s just a matter of time before we join all nature in declaring that the creation that was cursed because of our sin, has been liberated by the same death that Christ endured for us…

    …’For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills shall break forth into singing before you, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands’ (Isa 55:12)”

    Thanks for your inspirational post, Mart! You have affirmed us all — never condemning any one.

    Maru

  38. SFDBWV says:

    Psalms 139:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 takes the time to explain that no matter where you go God is there.

    If I were to write a work of fiction every invented detail of it would come from me or from my thinking.

    God has written into being everything that exists, it all comes from God it all returns to Him.

    There are many questions one could ask concerning God and His infinite power; indeed men do ask sometimes foolish as well as revealing questions, but never a wrong question.

    People do not understand all at the same level, so each and every question will have a view that aligns itself with that personal ability of understanding. Why do some not allow others to understand what they can at their own pace to do so?

    How sad that everyone has to see as some do or else attacked for being different or maligned for not agreeing with them.

    If we were to view life as a classroom, most of us fail, only learning from the experience of living after the fact.

    I thank God for being long suffering and giving me the time I need to understand the simplest matters, as the deeper things of Him may take me an eternity to begin to understand.

    In Revelation we read that God will destroy 1/3 of all living things upon the earth and if not restrained all would die; except for rebellious mankind what did all the remainder of creation do to deserve *punishment*?

    Steve

  39. BruceC says:

    I pray that some don’t take me the wrong way here. I am a hunter, fly-fisherman, and a general outdoorsman. Yet at the same time I love being in creation and marvel at the wonders of God. I am against animal cruelty and the misuse of our resources. Many sportsmen’s groups are behind efforts to conserve and use resources wisely and not abuse them. It breaks my heart to see so much farmland sold and developed for malls, etc.; just for profit. Farms are wonderful wildlife habitat and farming was the first human profession. But as the Word says the love of money is the root of many evils and so it continues to this day and shall until our Lord returns.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  40. BruceC says:

    Steve, you said:

    “How sad that everyone has to see as some do or else attacked for being different or maligned for not agreeing with them.”

    Wow! If that isn’t the truth. I have seen that more than I care to in some churches and have witnessed the harm it has caused. Yet we must pray for and forgive those who partake in that type of thing. They are still “family” and are a tad misguided.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  41. Bill says:

    @Bruce, you wrote:

    “It breaks my heart to see so much farmland sold and developed for malls, etc.; just for profit. Farms are wonderful wildlife habitat and farming was the first human profession. ”

    My wife and I know exactly what you mean. We say that to each other all the time. We’d rather see empty fields and forests than strip malls and suburbs any day.

    What’s really sad is that a development company will raze a field and forest, build a strip mall, then the strip mall will go out of business, and be razed to make way for the next type of business. Often, the businesses put in those strip malls are guaranteed to fail. Like another nail salon. Or a pizza place. Or House of Tea Cups or Wads of Gum or something extremely specialized.

    Commerce and “progress” for their own sake always make us terribly sad.

    Give us nature any day! :)

  42. foreverblessed says:

    Steve, what a question….
    I was thinking about all things: Colossians 1:20
    all things, panta in Greek.
    I found this on biblos website. There you can also find the Greek bible verse and the Greek dictionary, under panta you can find all the verses in the New Testament with all things, quite a thing to see them all together. Panta is a word used in the bible very often- here are a few:
    Matthew 5:18,11:27, Luke 10:22, Matthew 28:20, Mark 9:12,10:27,14:36, Luke 15:31, John 3:35,13:3, Romans 15:11, 1 Cor 8:6,12:6,13:7,15:27,28, 2 Cor 5:18, Ephesians 1:22,3:20,4:10, Phil 3:21, Col 1:16-17,3:8, 1 Timothy 6:13 (as Bill already wrote about) Hebrews 1:3,2:8,10,17,3:4,12:6, Rev 21:5

    I agree Steve, it will take eternity till we know all things, and I think a lot of things are not revealed to us now, they are hidden, (occult is the meaning) it is better we do not know them, until we live in the full love of God in heaven.

  43. poohpity says:

    Bill, again I was not sparring with you nor being passive-aggressive. I have nothing to prove to anyone nor do I need to be noticed for wisdom, being spirit filled, knowledge or the good works I do. I have found that no matter how much one tries to be noticed for those things there will always be someone who can find fault so I no longer look to people for atta girls because often times they do not know what is in my heart which you have shown. So whether you believe me or not I can do nothing about that. I do have to admit I do use sarcasm but not in this instance.

    If I hurt your feelings for that I ask for your forgiveness because that was not my intention at all that is why I preface my comments with seems so that they are not taken as fact. I have to say I am feeling very hurt also by your false accusations without any seems in there but spoken as if they are factual, just because others have said I do something does not mean it is true. Right now I do not have the strength or energy to be antagonistic, lucky to just get to the computer.

  44. foreverblessed says:

    God bless you all, and keep the peace here, Pooh and Bill I wrote something to you in the former topic, as not to detract too much here.
    I was still with this verse in Colossians, that though Jesus everything is reconciled.
    It says everything, not everybody. But maybe everybody is meant, while using panta. But everybody would mean everybody on earth, otherwise there would have been no need to mention heaven too. Or are there bodies there too, somewhere not on earth?
    What is the purpose for pondering over these things, nothing else then this: we know only in part, as many here have written, and so it is best that we do not write things as definite facts, but leave the ends open. That’s why I like Mart’s blog: “could it mean”
    Accept for this: It is a sure fact that Jesus took all our sins upon Himself that whosoever believes in Him should not perish.
    Lets not forget we have been forgiven, and rejoice with Him in our new risen life with Him

  45. SFDBWV says:

    The strangest computer glitch happens now with regularity with my computer and BTA. After a few days and nearly always once a new topic is put up if I click onto the recent comment column MSN gets knocked off.

    However if I go to Internet Explorer and bring up RBC and so BTA all works just fine through that method.

    I mention it because it is doing it again this morning.

    Oh well; I think I have said all I want concerning whether or not Jesus also died for the tree as well as mankind.

    Many times during the thread of conversation a developing different or connected subject rises and so the conversation can continue along that line.

    However we seem to have locked into our conversations becoming confrontational and so most people back off and have nothing to say.

    I have learned over the several years now of my participation here to do my best to ignore the barbs and ignorant behavior of some who just want to disrupt and spoil the time we have together. Sometimes when others get entangled in arguments I want to step in and say “just ignore the offender”, but I also know everyone has to deal with their own conflicts in the way that works for them so I stay out of the fray.

    It is a very difficult and heavy burden that Mart places on himself to put up subject matter for us to begin our conversations with where ever it may lead; I for one appreciate his efforts very much and hope he knows that.

    I also enjoy very much meeting and getting to know all of you and have some time together. It is most always pleasant and anticipated every day.

    Yes there are spoilers, there was in the garden and unfortunately there will always be one. We must not let them drag us into their world of discontent rather we must pray for them and sometimes ignore them until they learn the unwritten rules of social behavior, especially learning to put love ahead of strife.

    By the way it seems the ground hog was dead wrong this year, winter just won’t let go and for February being the shortest month, it has seemed like three months already and still 2 more days to go.

    Steve

  46. His Sparrow says:

    Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant…

  47. BruceC says:

    Steve, I know what you mean about computers. Our internet connection is deteriorating and sometimes I cannot connect to RBC for quite a while. may have to go with satellite; but we will wait until June to see if AT&T does their upgrade. Computers drive me nuts at times and if mine knew my thoughts it would get an order of protection from HP against me! LOL! Ya jus want to choke em’ at times!!
    As I get older winter stays longer and the other three seasons seem shorter. Aches and pains seem to stay and not leave as when younger. But the promise of seeing Him gets closer!! PTL!

    Bruce
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  48. BruceC says:

    Maybe we should all enter into BTA with a heart of prayer; like many do before church or before doing something for His service??????

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  49. Bill says:

    Frustrations with computers/technology is one of the reasons why I don’t want to buy a new Nook eReader. I’m afraid it’ll just be a drain on my time and attention because of its glitches.

    I sometimes experience weird goings-on with BTA. My post will appear then disappear, along with a bunch of others. Soon, they’ll all re-appear. It’s weird.

    Plus, there are the self-imposed hassles of trying to deploy my sausage fingers to type a response to a post using my iPhone keypad. That’s an exercise in patience (or futility) if there ever was one.

    Regarding BTA, I think Bruce is correct. This is an open playground. We all know the rules. We’re all adults. Yet, I think I sometimes take this playtime too seriously. I get frustrated. There’s never an excuse for that.

    So, from now on, I’ll take Bruce’s advice. And Steve’s.

    By the way, many thanks, Steve, for another great post this morning. I’ve had my “orange juice.” I can now proceed with my day. :)

    Blessings!

    Bill

  50. narrowpathseeker says:

    HIS SPARROW!!! I am so happy to see your name appear here!! Unfortunately, I am clueless to the carbon dioxide statement. BUT, since I have not seen any posts from you in a very long time, it doesn’t matter…I am just happy to know you are here. I hope all is well.

  51. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    I am pausing to consider what a wonder it is for an international crew to come together at this virtual table — fireside — fellowship hall thing that Mart so graciously holds forth for us.

    It seems to me the differences are like a habanero in the sauce. May we let much go by — and marvel at a conversation that could not happen in the physical!

    I also now enter BTA via RBC’s home page, down the list to “blogs” — click — then log in & click “comments.”
    This seems to be best for me over here, since the last great tech-induced paradigm shift at RBC. At each of these entry points, the number of comments can change, or not. Curious, but do-able. Reminds me of the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland. “Not all there” at times. :-D

    Blessings,
    Maru

  52. phpatato says:

    Steve

    Such good advice……Sometimes when others get entangled in arguments I want to step in and say “just ignore the offender”,

    I am guilty of becoming entangled in arguments. If the offender, in my mind, has ***overstepped the social behaviour guideline***, (and that is the key phrase here) then not saying something and ignoring what was said, is condoning that behaviour. It is allowing them to carry on by letting them think it’s ok to say what they did. And sometimes, it is just not ok to say the things they say.

    I may be wrong here on this but blatant, uncalled for, sarcastic remarks should not be condoned. Should someone not tell them that they crossed the line? How can something be fixed if you don’t know it’s broken. Surely, common sense says, that if I am told enough times that I say things in an unloving way, I will want to change. Surely, commons sense says, that if I say the same thing over and over and people ask me to let it drop, I should be wise enough to let it drop. Is this not just common courtesy?

    I am still shedding a tear knowing that I am responsible for pushing Gary out the door by my asking him to stop beating the osas dead horse. His leaving was a direct backfire to what I didn’t want to have happen (as with Bruce). I don’t want anyone to leave.

    Maybe I seek the impossible and Maybe it’s high time I learn to just ignore the offender.

    If someone could help me with this inner battle of mine, by giving me some advice, it will be most welcomed.

    Hugs to all

    Pat

  53. narrowpathseeker says:

    Good Morning ALL. While I so very often want to tell you ALL individually how much your comments inspire, encourage, teach me or just sometimes make me smile, I just don’t have the time to do so. I smile when I understand exactly what you are saying because I’ve been there, am still there, or I’m on my way there.

    Some days, I am reminded of experiences that help me through a difficult encounter and on other days I forget that same experience that helped me and struggle with a similar difficult encounter.

    If I could remember this particular experience ALWAYS it would help me to deal with difficult people. I am going to share it and hopefully someone here will remind me if I forget and react poorly to any difficult brother or sister here should they present themselves.

    While working with a high functioning mentally challenged person that also suffered with schizophrenia, I never knew what to expect from her. While it was my job to care for her it was also my job to care for the other residents, entertain them, cook, clean, transport, and pass medications. One time she complained to me because I was not watching a movie with her. I told her I was sorry but I was very busy, but if I finished in time I would watch some of the movie with her. She cursed at me and told me I was the only one that did so much work and wouldn’t watch movies with her. When I finally told her I was going to take a break and watch the movie with her she told me I was lazy! At other times she cursed me, threatened me, told me she hated me, and told me she loved me in the same breath.
    Sometimes she could speak in such an intelligent manner that if I didn’t know her, I might believe her to be a professional educator of some kind. Other times it was apparent that she couldn’t add single digit numbers. The point being that something didn’t work right in her brain and I didn’t take offense to her insults(most of the time{ :-) }. The point is that it is very possible that sometimes the people we don’t really know here that tend to frustrate us have some similar disorder. When I remember that, I can ignore attacks and only respond when their heads are “working right”. I hope this can help someone here as much as it helps, but even if it doesn’t I would appreciate a reminder if it becomes apparent that I forgot.

    Have a great day (y’all) ;-)

  54. poohpity says:

    His Sparrow, you are so right it is what trees need as food so that we can have oxygen. So the tree breathes life for us just as Jesus breathes life for our souls, minds and heart. The tree is a gift not only for our eyes but for the air we need to sustain life. Carbon dioxide is a pollutant to us but to trees it is life along with the sun. All creation is a reflection of the character, wisdom, imagination, beauty, authority of it’s Creator. The tree was there from the beginning and will be there in the end of life as we know it but there will still be a need for the tree. Absolutely amazing the mind of our God!! Way, way beyond anything we can wrap our mind around but science tries.

  55. SFDBWV says:

    Pat I certainly do agree with you that any one who offends others here should be told so, but once or twice or dozens of times of confronting the same offender with out anything ever changing in them requires a different approach.

    A bratty child who makes a scene just for attention can be scolded once maybe twice, but when you figure out that the attention they get from the scolding is just what they want, then the better approach is to ignore them.

    Please don’t think I am labeling anyone here I am not, I am only using the adjective to explain my thoughts; a brazen hussy is someone who can not be ashamed of their behavior, if confronted they simply get louder and more *brazen* and you become the offence for simply telling them the truth.

    Such people can best be served, after confronting them, by just ignoring them.

    Narrowpathseeker is 100% on target with what she has said concerning people with mental disabilities. There have been a couple here that I have leaned toward believing they may have *limitations* so for them I express my views, but not take offence at theirs nor become entangled in an argument directed toward them in particular.

    Please Pat don’t feel bad about your comments to Gary, I as well as Mart and many others here had their turn at trying to help him see. You are a goodhearted person and dear friend I would hate to think you are grieving over any comments made here.

    Having said all of this it is to be remembered that Jesus died for all the *brazen hussies* and all the hard headed people and even the Pharisee’s and for the likes of me, so though I am certain to have offended someone by my comments here I also hope that we can join in conversation here without the bitterness strife brings and learn and grow toward the love Jesus wants us all to express by action and word.

    Steve

  56. saled says:

    Maybe the answer to Mart’s opening question is in how we interpret that little preposition ‘for’. This topic grabbed my interest because I recently heard a well-respected pastor say that he was sure Jesus didn’t die for dogs. I didn’t respond to the statement, but having loved and lost several beloved dogs, I just knew that he was wrong. However, after reading this topic and the resulting conversation, I’m thinking maybe he was right, if we interpret ‘for’ correctly.

    When I say that Jesus died ‘for’ me, I’m saying that he died so that I wouldn’t have to. So maybe he didn’t have to die for dogs and trees, because being without sin, they didn’t anyone to die in their place. What we view as death here on earth can’t be the same as death from sin that Jesus died for.

    I believe that all creation will be redeemed, and that all creation will praise Him. But Jesus didn’t need to die in place of a tree or dog; it was just the human rade who needed someone to die in their place.

    It’s late, and maybe my thoughts aren’t clear. Does this make sense, anyone?

  57. His Sparrow says:

    I’m staying away from the discussion because the conflicts are foolish;

    but am trying to provide a little humor…

    if any scientists think carbon dioxide is a pollutant, they could solve the problem by ceasing to exhale…

    plants take in carbon dioxide and in the presence of light (energy) produce food, oxygen and water.

    Humans produce carbon dioxide by exhaling (breathing out).

    “The survival of the human race and all other animal life depends on the oxygen provided and recycled by the green plants of the earth…Plants are the only organisms capable of manufacturing their own food. Our dependence on them is total.”

    (Ornamental Horticulture, Jack Ingels, page 16)

    My dependence on Jesus is total-my bread, my water, my life.

    I am excited about eternity because I want to see what the plants and animals will be like!

  58. phpatato says:

    Steve and Narrow

    Thank you my dear brother and sister for your advice. I respect what you have to say. When I tie in what you say, Steve, with the wisdom in Narrow’s comment, I can see that perhaps ignoring them is the best course of action. Like that dead horse, if there’s no apparent change, you have to just let it lie.

    Thanks for taking time to post.

    Saled

    What you have said makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for commenting. I will go to bed pondering your thoughts.

    Sleep well everyone!

    Pat

  59. SFDBWV says:

    God’s written Word has been around some 4 or 5 thousand years, Christianity now over 2 thousand years. We are not the first people to ponder how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

    Why do we ask some of the questions we do? Is it because we need conformation of what we believe or because we are just curious?

    Why won’t we believe the ponderings of those who came before us? Or is it that every generation needs to confront the same questions and decide for themselves what they believe?

    Interesting that the Word of God was kept from the masses from the beginning. Only read to them on Sabbath or special occasions and was the property of special people whose purpose was to keep it from being changed or polluted.

    Also interesting that that same approach was put forward with the writings of the NT until only the last several hundred years.

    Do we still hold the Written Word of God with the reverence it once had? Or has it become *too familiar* as to come under the scrutiny of *our intellect*.

    For those who are able, the History Channel is putting on a mini series about the Bible, including the life, passion and resurrection of Jesus. I seen a little screening of it on Christian TV, it stars Roma Downey as the Virgin Mary, her husband is the director and they have a powerful testimony themselves.

    I think the message we need to get out is salvation and how to obtain it. We can’t all have a ministry such as RBC or are we on TV or radio, but we can do what we are anointed to do and show the world around us what it means to say we are a Christian.

    Steve

  60. SFDBWV says:

    Have any of you noticed that behind the most anger and hatred is also the most pain?

    What greater pain than feeling ignored by God.

    Steve

  61. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    Also am grateful that there is a “new” telling of the Old, Old Story just in time for Easter. The dvd of THE BIBLE’s 5 two-hour segments is available for pre-purchase from several retailers.

    What could we do? Invite neighbors over and serve pop-corn and soft drinks! This is one way to keep presenting the Gospel message right where we are. It will show Sunday nights for the month of March on cable.

    Maru

  62. Bill says:

    Good Morning All,

    Steve, you asked marvelous questions in your post from February 27, 2013 at 7:25 am. Please allow me to take a stab at answering…and posing a whopper of a question myself.

    You wrote:

    “Why won’t we believe the ponderings of those who came before us? Or is it that every generation needs to confront the same questions and decide for themselves what they believe?”

    You answer the former question with the latter. I believe for our faith to remain relevant, vibrant, and personal it has to be as fresh as the moment in which we live. If we simply accepted everything decided before we were born, we’d be intellectually stagnant, and possibly spiritually dead. God’s word is alive. But only as we allow it be alive. If we keep it locked away in a dusty tome somewhere, it does us no good.

    You wrote:

    “Interesting that the Word of God was kept from the masses from the beginning. Only read to them on Sabbath or special occasions and was the property of special people whose purpose was to keep it from being changed or polluted.

    “Also interesting that that same approach was put forward with the writings of the NT until only the last several hundred years.”

    And now my “whopper” of a question, something my wife and I pondered yesterday on the way home from work. But first, a little background. I promise to be as brief as possible.

    As you know, I do a lot of observing on BTA as well as Facebook. I read blogs posted by prominent Christian leaders (pastors, musicians, authors, etc.). Quite often, they are of the dogmatic, legalistic variety. They cut a swath through the middle of the Church like a hot knife through a stick of butter.

    One recent post from a well-known Christian pastor/musician was about Calvinism and the acronym T-U-L-I-P. His comment touched off a firestorm. He wrote:

    “Limited Atonement and Total Depravity: ‘No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day’ (John 6:44).”

    People from the Arminianism side chimed in regarding the verses that indicate “all” will be saved:

    “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:22 ESV)

    “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 ESV)

    Someone pointed out that was “Universalism” and said the Greek word pas translated “all” does not always mean everything, totality. It could also mean all of a like kind.

    In reply to that, someone pointed out 2 Timothy 3:16: “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16 ESV). The word “all” in that beloved verse is the Greek word pas. So why does it mean all in one verse and not all in another?

    I watched that debate unfold and shelved it away in my head.

    Another post came up from this pastor/musician regarding his study of Revelation. The question was asked, “With so many different giants of the faith studying the Book of Revelation and coming to different conclusions, on what do you rely when you study Revelation?” His answer:

    “1. I’ve approached the book as a book of worship, sovereignty and glory.

    2. The desire to have an exegetical eschatology as opposed to one defined by the times had also been helpful. (eg, no Left Behind fiction allowed ).

    3. Sources: GK Beale, Dr Robert Thomas, Dr Douglas Kelly, Hank Hanegraaff, Dr Robert Mounce, William Hendrickson and I occasionally use Dr John MacArthur. They are diverse and I only go to them once I’ve done my work in the text first – exegesis, historical, and significant O.T. study.

    4. One things to keep in mind, out of 404 verses in Revelation, 278 are from the Old Testament. The difficult lifting on this area is that John seldom references the OT by cutting the source. So you must look for those foundational gems as a coin in the field. But what a journey!

    Hope this helps a bit.”

    I filed that away in my head, too. I pondered both Facebook threads.

    Yesterday, my wife and I got to talking. I told her about the debates about the Bible and asked my whopper of a question:

    “If lay Christians are told we don’t understand what we’re reading until we’ve taken courses in hermeneutics, exegesis, have mastered the Bible’s original languages, and have consulted the sharpest minds from the most venerable theologians, how is this different from the Catholic Church that used to preach in Latin and tell members what the Bible meant?”

    Her mouth dropped open.

    “I don’t know,” she said after a moment.

    “Isn’t that what the Reformation was all about?” I asked. “And the reason why the Catholic Church stopped preaching in Latin in the 1960s — so that the people could read and understand the Bible for themselves?”

    She nodded.

    I asked another question: “What good is having the Bible in English if we can’t trust that it means what we see that it means?”

    She looked at me.

    “What, exactly, is God’s word if we need the original languages to understand what the English words mean?” I asked. “I mean, we talk a lot about the Bible being God’s word. But which translation? There are many. And, if we still don’t know what it means — according to the pastor/musician on Facebook — until we study the original languages or consult a stack of theology books, or spend years learning ‘contexts’ and Old Testament references, does that mean the English translation isn’t God’s word?”

    She scowled at me.

    So I asked another question: “Let me put this another way. Why would God create a book of instructions for us, but make it impossible to know what He meant unless we become theologians to understand simple words like ‘all’…or have spent our lives in seminary…or have learned original languages…or have developed our minds to the point where we’re sharp as tacks, both logically and theologically — and even then it’s possible to legitimately draw different conclusions because, even with all that knowledge, there’s no way to know for sure if all means all in one place and all doesn’t mean all in another place?”

    She looked at me again. I knew I shouldn’t press my luck with another question.

    Getting back to your question, Steve, even though the Word is given to the masses freely now, can we actually say the masses know what it means if the “true” or “correct” meanings of various verses and doctrines are known only to those who have spent their lives studying the subject? How is it truly different today from what you alluded to in your post: “Only read to them on Sabbath or special occasions and was the property of special people whose purpose was to keep it from being changed or polluted.”

    Doesn’t that still go on today? Aren’t people still told they don’t know what certain passages or verses or entire doctrines mean until “special people whose purpose was to keep it from being changed or polluted” tell them what they mean?

    You wrote:

    “Do we still hold the Written Word of God with the reverence it once had? Or has it become ‘too familiar’ as to come under the scrutiny of ‘our intellect’.”

    I might argue that we hold the written Word of God in more reverence today than ever before — almost to the point of worshiping the Bible, rather than its author.

    But that’s a conversation for a whole other time and place.

    Thanks for bearing with me and my “whopper” questions.

    I have no answers to these questions. They just came to me yesterday as I thought about all these ongoing theological/biblical debates.

    Blessings to all,

    Bill

  63. narrowpathseeker says:

    Bill, I have only a few minutes to write and it often takes me long periods of time to retrieve the right words to articulate what I am trying to say. Hopefully, this isn’t one of those days. I have been relying on the Lord’s Prayer to start my days and as I focus on “Give us this day, our daily Bread” I have come to expect that He will give ME the understanding of the Bread He gives me, that I need for the day. I am thinking that maybe when I don’t understand something…it is not my portion of Bread for the day…but maybe it IS the portion for the person who is understanding it….able to digest it…use it…for His Purpose..

    Steve, yes, I see that PAIN is behind anger and yes, I also agree that the worst pain is to feel ignored or separated from God. Want to write more but have to run. I will try to find time later. God Bless ALL here.

  64. bep77 says:

    LOL! you guys crack me up. Thank you Mart for making me think outside the box. I’ll certainly take this topic to my family for our discussion. I wish more “pastors” would bring such topics to their congregations. I would never have heard this from the pulpit. Oh, maybe the verses repeated over but not put together as you have presented it here. Again, thank you.

  65. remarutho says:

    Good Evening Mart & Friends –

    Mart, you wrote:

    “But I couldn’t deny that a broken trust and resulting curse have done more than tear into our humanity. As the Bible sees creation as full of the glory of God, it also describes all nature as groaning with us under the present weight of the curse.”

    It seems to me the kernel of the matter in the current question (Did Jesus die for a tree?) is this – Jesus is now calling back to the Father *everything* that has been separated from Him by the curse of human rebellion. There is still super-abundant grace received through the Presence of Christ in those who believe him. There is also super-abundant grace for those who do not believe him.

    It was Jesus who came to seek and to save lost people. God saw – sees – will see all that He has created as “very good.” The thing that is predestined is that the only begotten Son is the Savior of the universe (all things). Very young children understand this truth. No moving parts, no battery required.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  66. BruceC says:

    Sorry for going off-topic; but could all here pray for my wife and I. Our dog Ginger that we asked for prayer about two weeks ago has not improved. She is losing bladder and bowel control and the medication for a possible urinary tract infection did not work. The wife was up all night taking her out every two hours. So we have to get her to the vet today and it doesn’t look good. We cannot continue like this; as one of us would have to be home or up all night all the time. With no children of our own I think we have a deeper attachment to our pets. Also the man is coming Friday afternoon to install our sattelite for the internet. Phone lines here are getting too bad to do it over them any more; so in order to stay on, this is our only option. Sometimes things happen one after another. Been there before.
    God bless all!!

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  67. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Bruce —

    Will keep your good friend Ginger in prayer today. Surely she has been a loyal member of your family these long years. I have a 12-year-old tom cat, Tad, who is a dear companion. May your farewell to Ginger be a kind and loving time for you and your wife.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  68. poohpity says:

    Bruce, I am so saddened to hear about Ginger and will be praying for all your current circumstances. If you have a moment look up the poem “Rainbow Bridge”. Love Deb

  69. narrowpathseeker says:

    Bruce, I am feeling your pain for Ginger. It is very difficult to lose a pet or to watch them suffer. I will certainly pray for Ginger’s recovery as well as for you and your wife’s hearts to heal if His Will is other than recovery.

    We lost two dogs last year. They were both from the pound.(can’t think of the word they us for that…it’s one of those mornings!!!!) But, although they were abused before we got them, it was comforting for us to know that they lived out their years very much loved and cared for. I am sure Ginger has received the same and hope the thought that you provided much loving care helps to comfort you if it is time to part company.

  70. phpatato says:

    Bruce

    Please know that I will be keeping Ginger in my prayers. I have lost a handful of precious furbabies over the years and the little Sheltie I have now is on low-dose prednisone for the rest of her life (a pill every second day) because she suffered a seizure last summer. She is only 7.

    Please keep us updated as to her condition.

    Hugs

    Pat

  71. saled says:

    Bruce, so sorry to hear on the following post that you have lost your Ginger. I also find comfort and hope in the verse that Steve shared with you about God holding the souls of all creatures in his hand. I have always loved the part of the Christmas story where the angels announce the birth of Jesus to the shepherds because shepherds were common people, not high and mighty. But the comments here make me think that the good news that the angels announced was meant for the sheep as well. Looking forward along with you to that day when all creation is redeemed.

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