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The Wrath of God

DSC01031Is God angry with us, even furious to the point of threatening to kill us, until we accept his Son, at which point he begins loving us?

One thing is clear, those who read and believe the Bible must do something with the wrath of God which is said to rest on those who have not yet believed in the Son of God (John 3:36).

Then we need to do something with the Son of God, himself, who urges the religious leaders of his day not to think that he is going to condemn them to his Father, but rather to realize that the one who is condemning them is the Moses in whom they are trusting (John 5:45).

Jesus says that after telling them not to think that it is the Father who is going to judge them, but rather the Son to whom the Father has entrusted all judgment (John 5:22).

Some will say that this reflects the circular reasoning and self-contradictory nature of the Bible. Others might interject that this is, once again, the problem of trying to reconcile the angry God of the Old Testament with the loving God of the New Testament. But if that’s our frame of mind, could it be that it is our view of God’s wrath that deserves a second look?

It is the God of the Old Testament who tells the prophet Hosea to marry an unfaithful woman and then to go out and lovingly buy her back for himself after she has sold herself into the bondage of her lovers.  And it is the New Testament (rather than the OT) that describes God to followers of Jesus, not only as the ultimate example of eternal, immeasurable love (1John 4:16), but also as a consuming fire (Heb 12:29).

KONICA MINOLTA DIGITAL CAMERAIs the Bible making us crazy? Or is  the only answer to think of God as having a divided personality and character, one side of which is angry at sinners all of the time—whether in Christ or out—while the other side caused him to love sinners all of the time—whether in Christ or out?

Or is there a sense in which God’s anger and wrath is motivated by his jealous interest in us—which causes him to hate with a consuming passion anything that brings harm to ourselves or others?

Seems to me that we see in the God of the Old Testament what we see in Jesus– who enraged religious leaders by being a friend of sinners. At the heart of his story we see the affections of an eternal God who loves us before and after we turn to him… while never wanting us to forget that he remains intensely against anything that would turn our hearts away from hDSCN0134im— causing ruin to ourselves and others…

Isn’t this the Jesus who intervened to show us how much God loves us by bearing in his own body the reality of the evil passion…and self-deceptive anger that caused us to unwittingly call for the death of the God who loves us– rather than to give up the kind of self-defeating, war mongering, self-affirming, moral obsession that we sometimes mistake as our honor and calling?


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122 Responses to “The Wrath of God”

  1. foreverblessed says:

    What a difficult topic.
    God a God of wrath, it is written like this. But is it really the wrath of God?
    God shows a person heaven, he looks in, and sees people singing and praising God, and the unrepented sinner can’t bear the looks of it, and he flees away.
    Although it is written like this: John 3:36,
    it is not the wrath of God that sends people away, but it is the sin in people themselves which is the wrath.

  2. BruceC says:

    “self-defeating, war mongering, self-affirming, moral obsession that we sometimes mistake as our honor and calling?”
    You likely could also word your statement above to say “Doing it our way, in our power, and earning it”
    The works of self-righteousness. That’s why those who rejected Jesus had their “hope” set on Moses. On keeping the law for salvation. But the one command; to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is the one they stumbled on. The one that opens the door of grace and mercy.
    I think that the wrath of God remaining on the wicked actually remains on their rebellion and their sinning. For at any time if they turn and repent He would lovingly and willingly forgive them. Loving the sinner and hating the sin. The wicked are cast out of His presence at the end because they would not allow God to wash them clean; and He cannot allow sin in His presence. Just as we believers must come to God and confess and ask forgiveness for sin to restore our relationship with Him; so the unbeliever must do the same and believe in Christ to have a relationship with the Father.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  3. SFDBWV says:

    What is it we are trying to explore here? Are we trying to determine whether God is either vengeful or forgiving? Flexible or stoic? Restricted or free? One but not the other?

    In the OT the Prophets always were giving a message of warning, the message or Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth is “The Good News”.

    The warnings of the OT came always with an escape/mercy; the Gospel also comes with a warning.

    In order to take a little pressure off any of us who think we must have all the answers that Scripture provides questions to, these are questions that the church has ask since Jesus began His public ministry. There are books and writings throughout these past 2000 years that have tried to satisfy the curious.

    God created the Jewish race in order to re-introduce Himself accurately to the human race, He came to man in the person of Jesus of Nazareth in order to reconnect mankind to Him and from Jesus’ ministry we are to inform the world that mankind has been reconciled because of Jesus of Nazareth. This is the good news.

    The emerging Church was also warned of “perilous times” (2 Timothy 3:1) and what those perilous times looked like (2 Timothy 3:2, 3, 4).

    Why are we warned of the coming events? Is it to make us afraid of a coming judgment or rather to give us encouragement that in spite of our spiritual condition perilous times will still come, but have no effect on our standing with God, only meant to encourage our faith?

    Steve

  4. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Does this have anything to do with the recent conflict about the song “In Christ Alone” in which the Presbyterian church would not include the song in their official hymnal unless the lyrics were changed from, “and on the cross as Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied” to “and on the cross as Jesus died, the love of God was magnified.”

    And when the writers of the song, Stuart Townend and Keith Getty refused to change their lyrics, the song was denied admission.

    I completely agree with the last two paragraphs of Mart’s comment.

  5. Mart De Haan says:

    tracey5tgbtg, I was not aware of the issue over the phrase in the Getty song “In Christ Alone” (which I have always loved). But I’m guessing that you’re on to something.

    I recently read a book in which the author argues for a profound and complete commitment to the saving nature of Jesus’ substitutional sacrifice for us— while showing how the Scriptures describe Jesus bearing in his crucifixion the self-consuming rage and wrath of our human rebellion against God.

  6. swwagner says:

    This is too complicated for me to digest this morning…I will have to do some thinking before commenting. Other than that, I am happy to let God be God…and simply have child like faith to rest in His provided salvation.

    God does have wrath, love, mercy, anger, jealously…all of these are in the Bible so we can’t discount them. We can argue about the meanings and contexts until we are dead…then, we will know for sure what is what. Until then, let us pray for the lost of the world and do what we can to bring them to salvation.

  7. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    First of all: Nice rant, Mart! It seems to me we each need to stretch out our hearts and our minds to reach for understanding of the character of our God. Holy Love can rearrange human thinking and bring us into a covenant relationship with our Creator.

    One answer to your question, Mart, is yes (amen!), “the Jesus who intervened to show us how much God loves us by bearing in his own body the reality of the evil passion…and self-deceptive anger that caused us to unwittingly call for the death of the God who loves us” is the long foretold Messiah, the Son of God.
    Wrath in Hebrew (‘aph) derives from the term for “breath.”

    Would not the God who breathed stars and planets into being have the breath that creates and destroys in the most awesome way? Destruction is reserved for the evil one and his followers. (2 Thessalonians 2:7, 8, 9)

    Blessings,
    Maru

  8. Artle says:

    Same God, same Big Story, same wrath and love in OT and NT, loves who He loves and hates who He hates.

    Our small minds have difficulty grasping the infinite capacity of the mind of God. Even the phrase, mind of God, is woefully inadequate because it makes an immediate comparison between His thinking and ours. We are like little children not understanding how Daddy can be mad and still love us.

    If the story were all hugs and kisses it could not be real and would not be real.

  9. short357 says:

    The wrath of God? What a topic of discussion, and who could really describe God’s explanation of choosing his wrath on any for whatever reason he has. In my mind, I don’t totally understand the explanation of him loving, forgiving, dying on the cross and raising from the dead giving eternal hope for sinful humanity, but I’m glad he did( Jer. 17:9,10,John 3:16-17,Rom. 6:23). By faith I’m trusting Him to be holy and righteous in his wrath as he is holy and righteous in saving many from wrath that would allow him. It’s amazing in John 5, Jesus did something wonderful in healing someone suffering 38 years and the religious leaders(whose so suppose know God, yet wanted to kill Jesus) got upset he did it on the Sabbath. I would think they would be glad that man would not have to suffer anymore and rejoice about. What difference did a certain day make, Jesus also said is Lord of the Sabbath anyway.

  10. Bill says:

    Good Morning All!

    Mart’s post this morning is the crux of everything — it is the foundational issue that both unites and divides people.

    The “angry God” reading of the scriptures has been the key motivating factor behind most spiritual movements — as well as cults — since the church began. Remember Jonathan Edwards’ “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” sermon? He preached it to his own congregation. To this day, I know Christians (some here in BTA) who walk on both sides of the issue — at the same time.

    This becomes especially schizophrenic when we see posts like this on Facebook: “God loves you so much. Turn to Jesus or face God’s eternal wrath.”

    Then comes the inevitable posts from Christians and non-Christians alike: “Are you saying God only loves me if…” or “What kind of God forces people to love him under threat of eternal punishment?”

    Last week on Facebook I watched a thread on a prominent Christian pastor/musician’s page deteriorate into shouts of “HERESY!” versus “UNIVERSALISM!” within a half dozen posts.

    Is God angry with the world? Or does he love the world so much that he sent his son to die for its sins?

    These questions are at the heart of conflict today — within the body of Christ as well as in those who look at us and say, “You people are crazy. You can’t even decide what your God thinks of people.”

    Mart, your last paragraph was a good summary — but it went too far to include a few liberal chestnuts: “war-mongering and moral obsession.”

    I don’t see either of those as being part of this discussion. For example, we currently have a Commander in Chief who claims to be a Christian (whose actions are anything but) who is the very epitome of a war monger. So his meddling in foreign countries has nothing to do with his alleged faith.

    Ditto for “moral obsession.” Our morals/ethics are laid out for us in scripture and are, to some extent, given to us by the Holy Spirit. Granted, some people take this to the point where they say if you (even Christians) are NOT all of the things listed in the Bible then God will cast you into the lake of fire. But, generally, our morality has been the salt which has preserved America, and this world. The world would be a much darker place if not for the morality of Christians.

    This issue — God’s anger and wrath — were the wedge that created the orthopraxy movement today. Christians, tired of the constant barrage of threats of eternal damnation (while the world starved or went without food and clothes) broke away from orthodox denominations. These people (Rob Bell, Shane Claiborne, Brian McClaren, Richard Rohr, et al) are part of the so-called Emergent Church.

    Bottom line: We will not (in this lifetime) be able to answer the question Mart posed in today’s post. The Bible indicates it could be either way.

    To me, it doesn’t make sense to read the Bible as a manifesto against humanity. Not post-Jesus, anyway. So, for me, God’s wrath is done. His anger is assuaged. Jesus bore the world’s sins, and punishment for them, on the cross. Case closed. Love wins.

    But that’s just my opinion, and I’m willing to maintain that opinion until my last breath. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. As a believer, I won’t be experiencing eternal damnation regardless of my belief one way or another in this matter.

    Have a great day!

    Bill

  11. fadingman says:

    When we think about the wrath of God, we think in terms of man’s wrath, and we get the wrong idea. God doesn’t lose control of Himself (i.e. lose His temper) like we do. He doesn’t do things out of spite.

    Jeremiah is one of my favorite books. So many read it and see God blowing His cool. But when I read it, I see God who loves His people very much (i.e. Jeremiah 2), and it pains Him to have to punish His people who reject Him. He wrath in their case was due to His love for them, and it worked out His purpose in the end.

    Somewhat recently, I have thought of God’s wrath as not being so much a part of who He is (i.e. a character attribute), but His response when our sin comes up against His righteousness. All His other character traits are permanent and exist apart from who He is. But His wrath is ‘for a moment’, and when sin is gone, His wrath disappears.

    God has taken away the sin of those who trust in Jesus. As far as we are concerned, the Bible says nothing about God ever showing wrath towards those He has saved.

  12. poohpity says:

    Could the “war mongering” be those that are just angry and divisive wanting to stir up strife? I do not mean those who have differing opinions but those who intentional/unintentionally are harsh, critical, call names and are prejudice. Moral obsession or could it be called arrogant, prideful, thinking they are better than others or are able to follow the laws of God that seems were meant to point us to Jesus?

    I was going to say that I do not know of any religious leaders that even recognized who Jesus was or the impact of what He taught or did but then I remembered, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Paul. Being a people who so called served God but did not even recognize Him as He stood in their presence. The religious people’s own honor exceeded that of the King of Kings, go figure but still happens today.

    I guess as I read the Bible I did/do not see any difference in the God of the OT and of the NT. God is the same always and that is the only sure thing I have ever known in my life. The only thing that I can count on that never changes while everything around changes all the time. People who were once friends turn, people die, society changes, technology changes, economy changes and hopefully people change either for the hopefully, good or bad but God remains the same. I see in the bible the great lengths He has always made throughout history for us just to know Him and I know we can’t do it perfectly but to love Him with all that we are capable of.

  13. poohpity says:

    fadingman, that seems so true about how our mind comprehends wrath because we base it on us.

  14. poohpity says:

    His kind of wrath includes laying down His Deity to take on flesh. If we ever pursued Him with the same intensity that he does us.

  15. oneg2dblu says:

    Are we talking about God’s Word, the actual foundation that the church had better be built on, now becoming a wedge that creates a movement? Are we now to be following the Emergent Church which is tired of hearing about the Word of God, and says the word is the wegde in the church todsy?
    It should not be the wedge but it should be the foundation,
    but instead we can no longer as a movement tolerate the word, then we have moved in the wrong direction.
    Those are the very problems with the Emergent Movement, why are they really moving away?
    Maybe sin, or not tolerating God’s word, does actually separate.
    Thank God that the Word,says,
    In the begining was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God.
    Jesus Christ, the word, actually did come to divide us.
    It is written in His Word.
    Perhaps that is also part of God’word that some may not be able to tolerate.
    Divide and conquer may well be part of His plan, where His Wrath and His Love each have a place in Eternity.
    Gary

  16. poohpity says:

    Yes it does divide those who think and act like this; self-defeating, war mongering, self-affirming, moral obsession, arrogant, self righteous, prideful that we sometimes mistake as our honor and calling and those who think and act like this; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

  17. oneg2dblu says:

    I wonder what was the root cause that divided the Ten Virgins right down the middle?
    Was it the Wrath or Love of God that closed the door on half of them?
    What lesson was Christ teaching in that parable?
    They all clearly knew who was holding the wedding banquet, and they all felt they were invited.
    Did half of them act as self-defeating, war mongering, self-affirming, arrogant, self-righteous, prideful, or with moral obsession, and did they lack love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness or self-contol?
    What if the same thing that divided them, also divides us, and ultimately the entire church?
    Maybe there is something to this faith with works, and wrath with love, after all.
    Maybe our thinking they can never both be God’s plan is what divides us all.
    Just a thought…

    ,

  18. poohpity says:

    I always thought that that parable was to teach us that we are not responsible for the spiritual relationship with God of another. Like I can not give your life to Christ or you can not give my life to Christ. 5 made the choice for God before the end and the other 5 may have thought that they could wait thinking the end was not near but it was and they had not made that choice.

  19. poohpity says:

    2 Peter 3:3-4 NLT

  20. oneg2dblu says:

    Thanks pooh… you are right. Yes, I agree we are not responsible or held accountable for another’s actions, or lack of action.

    I thought the lesson is that each one needs to be prepared for the end, for we do not know the day or hour when Christ will return.

    He will come like a thief in the night, and if we are not full and ready at all times for that moment, we could find ourselves empty, on the outside, looking in.

    Five were full, perapred, and five were not.

    All Christians are to be held accountable, as we will be judged for the things we have done after our initial salvation.

    I beleive we are to be accountable for both our comission of sin, and our omission of obedience after salvation though.

    I beleive the rewards are only given to those who have earned them.

    So, was entering the banquet the reward given only to those who met the conditions, those who chose wisely to obey and not ignore certain warnings?

    Didn’t they need to keep their lamps full at all times, and do not leave things unattended that required their action?

    To me, entry to that banquet apparently was conditional, and five did not meet those conditions.

    If entering that banquet is akin to entering the kingdom, then one’s position of a place at the baquuet table has to be conditional as well, or all would have been allowed in.

    So, isn’t the oil in the lamp, akin to our ongoing relatioship with Christ, that we Christian’s all must attend to?

    We Christian’s as living vessels are to actively be pursuing our being filled with the Holy Spirit, because our vessels all seem to leak over time, and one filling apparently is not enough.

    At least that is what I have been taught, and what Paul taught as well.

    Was the door closed as an act of Love or Wrath?
    I believe it was both.
    Gary

  21. tracey5tgbtg says:

    What divides the ten virgins is that five of them were at the gate when the bridgegroom arrived and five of them weren’t there. And why weren’t they there? They saw in the other five something they didn’t have. The Holy Spirit was manifest in their lives. They had confidence and peace and assurance that they were beloved. I have read commentaries suggesting that the “oil” in the lamps represents the Holy Spirit in the heart.

    Perhaps the foolish virgins didn’t look as good, weren’t as prepared and that bothered them. They wanted to look just as good as the others, so instead of trusting in the love of their bridgegroom, they took off to “earn” or worse “buy” some oil. (Some Christian credentials.) When the bridgegroom came, they were out trying to make sure they would be acceptable enough to get in. Moral of the story: you can’t go out and earn it – grace that is, and fellow Christians can’t share theirs with you. You must receive it knowing you don’t deserve it. Receive the Holy Spirit and His grace today and be ready. Don’t waste your time trying to earn it, buy it, deserve it or create it.

    Back to the topic, I wasn’t aware of the controversy between theologians in regards to the atonement and what actually was accomplished on the cross. Until I heard the controversy about the song. To be honest, I really don’t have a clue what they are arguing about. To me it seems so simple. I am not scared of the wrath of God even though I believe that the wrath of God is pure, perfect, undeniable and without measure. I can’t come up with enough adjectives to describe what I believe His wrath to be. Nothing and no one could be perfect and pure enough to face His perfect infinite righteousness other than Himself. So God became man and faced the wrath for us. It’s love beyond the scope of our understanding.

    The idea that believing we are not saved by our works, but by the grace of God will lead people to believe that they can now indulge in their “sinful desires” (whatever that means) boggles my mind! What exactly are sinful desires? The thought of indulging in sin as something that I would look at longingly is mind-blowing. Sin is not fun! There is no fun in destroying myself and hurting my soul and distancing myself from God. I want always and only to focus on my God, and yet I hear a comment, or read a comment saying people need to change their ways or face the wrath of God and my sinful heart wants to jump in and argue. You can’t be good enough to earn it! And every time you tell someone they need to earn it you are implying that somehow you have done just that. Earned your way to heaven. You can’t change your ways until you have received Him into your heart and then allow Him to change you.

    Sorry for the confusing wording. I don’t think I am expressing my point well at all.

  22. SFDBWV says:

    When you tell small children about whom God is what do you tell them?

    Do you tell them He will burn them forever in a lake of fire if they don’t do exactly as He says?

    Or do you tell them He is like a loving Father who would do all He can for their wellbeing and happiness?

    When a tornado destroys an entire neighborhood of Christian people do you tell them it is because of God’s wrath?

    Or do you tell them they are alive because God kept them safe?

    When we bury our small children because of a house fire or automobile accident or a long and lingering cancer do we think it is because of the wrath of God?

    Clearly 1 Thessalonians 5:9 tells us we are *appointed* to obtain salvation not wrath. And Romans 5:9 also states we are saved from wrath.

    The word we live in has only seen the results of their wayward ways, of the carless ways in which we care for everything especially our children and our environment.

    The wrath of God is yet to come and when it does it is against the whole of the world (Revelation 6:16, 17).

    When we speak to small children or tender people in the faith we speak of grace and mercy and of love not of punishment.

    Though we see God as both merciful and vengeful we look at the side of mercy rather than the side of wrath, because for now this is how God is shown to us in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

    We need to keep our eyes upon that side of the nature of God, because there is where He wants us to concentrate our focus, for ourselves and toward others.

    Yes God is all powerful, but He is also all loving.

    I personally don’t think He is punishing anyone today, rather letting people have things their way and suffering for it.

    Steve

  23. Artle says:

    I must admit it has taken a couple days to decipher Mart’s post and this topic. I fear we are making it to complex. God always has loved us, but I suppose could be angry about what we do.

    God was ready to wipe Israel (His chosen) off the face of the earth and Moses stood in the way, asked God to turn away his fierce wrath and he did. I think God is probably ready to wipe us all off the face of the earth, but Jesus stands in the way. It is more complex than this, but it’s also just that simple. Psalm 2:12

    It seems without Jesus there is only darkness and worse that is akin to the wrath of God. Does the wrath of God come upon us for what we have done (our sins) or for what we have not done (believed in the only begotten Son)?

  24. Artle says:

    A reference when Moses stood in the way and saved Israel as Jesus stands in the way to save us today. Exodus 32:10-14.

  25. BruceC says:

    When we look at God’s mercy we see the Lamb of God; Jesus Christ. When we look at God’s wrath we see the Lion of Judah. Those who have accepted the mercy of God (Jesus) will escape His justice (the wrath of God).
    That wrath will come because they have not been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  26. poohpity says:

    I respectfully disagree I am not on of those who sees God as vengeful but full of patience, mercy and grace not treating us as our sins deserve.

    I also would not try and comfort someone in their loss whether from natural disaster, accident or intention with any explanations as to the character of God but with sharing in their tears, grief and mourning as they go through their respective situations. To me it would not be a very good time to venture into a theological debate especially if I did not have the answers they needed to hear at the time because it would just be supposition or assuming devoid of comfort. I would just sit and listen.

    If I were explaining to a child the character of God or to an adult for that matter and I did not believe that God was a loving God then I would not be sharing the truth as I understand it. If I believe that He is full of wrath and vengeance I would share that because that is how I see it but I don’t.

    As a parent I did not punish my children in an effort to break their spirit I corrected them with appropriate consequences for their offense or they would have never learned the difference in right or wrong. When my son was 8 I took him to work with me and while I was working he helped himself to my debit card to go the store next door for some candy and a drink when he got back I explained that was stealing and was made sit by me until work was done. Then after work I went to the police station and said I would like to report a theft. The policeman knelt down and explained what happens to one for stealing then asked me if I wanted to press charges and I said not at this time. Scared that little man. There were consequences but not so severe to break him and then came the mercy when he apologized for doing what he did. That is how God seems to be with us not giving us what our sins deserve. He has never stolen anything since. If I were a wrathful parent I would have spanked him and taken stuff away but then he would have feared me and not learned the real consequences for that type of behavior.

  27. poohpity says:

    If I believe that Jesus represents in the flesh our God and Father if He is wrathful then why did He say things like John 8:15-16 NIV? Then even a step further in John 8:19

  28. poohpity says:

    Mart in your last 2 paragraphs that is what I have seen in the OT. An affection that many, many times knew ahead of time what His children would want which most times put Him on the back burner if not totally rejecting Him to go their own way. God knew what their choices would be, let them know He already knew, told them what would happen if they did and then was there always when they decided to return to His Omnipotent, Omniscience care just like the example He gave through Hosea. How can one translate that into a wrathful, vengeful God? That same God who after the very first fall came searching for His creation and covered the beauty of their naked bodies with skins so they would not feel shame.

    Isn’t that exactly the same thing Jesus revealed by every action He took? He was the example of what God is like that the religious people had made so convoluted and distorted to present God to be feared rather than revered. Wrathful and oppressive rather than freeing and loving who was the very manifestation of love described in 1 Cor 13:4-7 NIV. God fully knows us, everything secret and what we will do and knows every step we will take but still loves us like that. Simply amazing and totally awesome!!!

    When we share the good news don’t we have to know what that good news really is?

  29. Artle says:

    pooh, I agree that God is Love and His love for us is amazing and totally awesome!!!, but I’m not sure I understand your comments completely. Is there no wrath for the disobedient or the unrepentant? Is there no judgement to come for those who refuse to accept the good news?

  30. poohpity says:

    I know that while I was still alienated(a sinner) from God, Jesus still went to the Cross for my sin whether I trusted in Him or not. God’s wrath was satisfied through Jesus which was intended from the very beginning of time. I believe that there will be judgment for those who judge Matt 7:1-2 NIV.

  31. cbrown says:

    Pooh thank you for continuing to proclaim the “Good News”.

  32. BruceC says:

    God truly is patient and kind. He is truly loving also. And He is these things to a degree we cannot fully understand. But the Word says that these are not His only attributes. He gives all a chance to accept His Lamb right up to the time of death. After that all chances are gone. His patience has run out. His justice shall occur.
    We need to see things in balance. I have a relative that has an anything goes type of attitude and sees God as ONLY love. And that He would not send any one to hell( which is kink of true as people make that choice themselves). I told her that maybe she should read the Bible (which she laughs at) and especially Revelation.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  33. SFDBWV says:

    Ok Mart, I was hoping that this subject would have been wrung out by today, but since it is still here and just for your questions I will try and inject some of my thoughts.

    First of all to your first question; “Is God angry at us?”

    I will answer as such; If you have children or even a friend or someone close to you and you warn them of the dangers or lifestyles they may be living and they ignore your advice and concern, are you angry at them?

    Anger is probably not the emotion you feel. It is most likely a combination of frustration, disappointment, concern and most importantly designing a way to pick up the pieces when what you know is going to happen, happens.

    I being a man and feeling this way instead of anger, imagine just how much more perfected God is in dealing with that same scenario.

    Jesus tells us we are to forgive someone 70 times 7 (Matthew 18:22). Does that not also include Jesus’ Himself?

    Interestingly in Luke 17:3 Jesus says for us to take heed and when some one wrongs us *rebuke* him and *if* he repent forgive him and in Luke 17:4 Jesus says if that same person wrongs you 7 times a day and *repents* we still are to forgive him. Does this also not include Jesus?

    God says through in Psalms 103:3 He forgives *all* our iniquities*, in Psalms 103:4 He redeems our lives from destruction, in Psalms 103:8 He is merciful, gracious, and slow to anger, filled with mercy, in Psalms 103:9 He will not keep his anger for ever, in Psalms 103:10 God says He has *not dealt with us because of our sins or rewarded us according to our iniquities, in Psalms 103:12 God says as far as the east is from the west is how far He has *removed* our transgressions from *us*.

    God also states in Psalms 103:6 that he executes *judgment* for all that are oppressed.

    God’s judgment and His wrath is against *sin*…Sin was defeated at the cross and at a predetermined time that same spirit of sin will forever feel the *wrath* of God.

    So then what de we do with those who refuse to repent? Are we or is God in a covenant to forgive even them?

    More later.

    Steve

  34. poohpity says:

    I think that we “judge” God’s wrath, anger, justice, love, mercy and grace based on our human understanding. Through reading the bible if we step back from our self for those few minutes and ask for guidance from God to show us more about Him we may come away with a different light about many things.

  35. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    From the perspective of being and reality: evil either is something or it is nothing. God’s hatred and destructive intention toward evil told again and again in the Scriptures is evidence that it is something, rather than nothing.

    Mart, you wrote:
    “One thing is clear, those who read and believe the Bible must do something with the wrath of God which is said to rest on those who have not yet believed in the Son of God (John 3:36).”

    All the “people of the Book” – Jews, Christians and Muslims — have a place for the Son of God in Messiah, Jesus Christ and the Prophet Issa in their God narrative. It seems to me we are called to fervent, persistent prayer for the people of the Book – as well as all other peoples – to come to faith in the Carpenter from Nazareth. The shadow he casts across history is the shadow of a Roman cross. Rebellion must die by that cross – faith must live on in His resurrection. It’s not over yet.

    Yours,
    Maru

  36. rrbck1 says:

    Just a couple of things to say here. First of all for remarutho’s comment “All the “people of the Book” – Jews, Christians and Muslims —”: “the book” seems to group these three as people who accept the same Book, which is not true. Jews I can accept in that they accept the Old Testament, but Jews and Christians are the only ones that accept that Book. Also, Muslims do not accept Jesus as God come in the flesh, as Jesus Himself claims and I accept as a reality. However, the rest of your comment I agree with.

    I suspect by the rest of your comment that you probably didn’t intend anyone to think otherwise. I just wanted to be sure that all readers will be clear on that. I had one professing Christian check with me (in person) that what they told someone else was correct, namely that “Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the same God.” The first two (Jews and Christians), but Muslims do not – theirs is different, very different.

    Referring Mart’s initial comments: we can be easily confused by trying to picture God as a changing person by “the God of the OT and the God of the NT.” Whether in the Old Testament of the New Testament, God is the same – the Never Changing God. He has been loving and merciful from Genesis 1:1 and knew just what man would do and had His plan of salvation all ready from day 1, which shows His love even then. His wrath is clearly against sin, whether in the OT or the NT or today.

    However, I think you agree with that and did not intend a division of thought, but I just wanted to be sure it was clear for any readers that might not be clear in understanding.

  37. belleu says:

    I don’t think God telling us we will die if we don’t believe in him is a threat. I think he is just telling us it is the natural result of not having God in our lives. It is just what will happen, period.

    Fear is a great motivator and I think God also uses it to scare us into coming to him, which is not the ideal, but once we come to him we will learn and grow to love him.

    When I was 19, God gave me a dream. In it I was walking with friends, drunk and laughing. We were on the top of a city hill. All of a sudden the sky went black. I turned around and saw a huge rainbow spanning the black sky. I knew Jesus was coming back and I wasn’t ready to meet him. Did it scare me? You bet, and I’m glad it did. I began to study and pray and eventually was converted.

    I heard a preacher say, “The wrath of God is God turning away from us when we keep rejecting him until we hear him no more.” This in found in Romans 4. It says God gives us up. He doesn’t want to,”How can I give you up?” God asks in Hosea 11:8. But he has to accept our free choice.

  38. cbrown says:

    John1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were [a]born, not of [b]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. God has commanded us to carry the Gospel of Peace to the world and to keep on doing it. We have no clue who will receive it and when the will receive it. God does!I keep bringing these examples up because they bring home the point. Thursday night I was talking to a man who has been in prison for 40 years. 1 and 1/2 years ago he accepted Christ as his Savior. I asked him why after all those years and he said that he finally surrendered . We had discussion one in the Spirit about God’s Word. Somebody may question his salvation and my response is talk to God about it.

  39. cbrown says:

    When we go into a cellblock to witness, we don’t tell the people there that they are liars and thieves and they are going to hell!We tell them that God loves them and wants to set them free. Not from prison but free indeed.

  40. Artle says:

    Interesting how everything ties together with all the things that God has offered, is offering or will offer; love, wrath, mercy, judgement, salvation, indictment, invitation, hope, grace, fear, eternal life and eternal damnation. Is it because somewhere at sometime, someone needs each one of these to either get to the path, stay on the path or get back to the path. Why else would God offer any of them. I use the word offer, because the choice of which we receive is ours. Is it not?

  41. plumbape says:

    Hi everybody, I Love God and I show love to everybody, but I’m no saint! I find it’s easy to love my enemies because I don’t have any. I did lose my cool with the last crack smoking neighbor but I gave in and let my wife write a letter to the court for him. He’s ignorant so I would still show him love now but I don’t see him. I’m asking for the prayer warriors out there ( you know who you are ) to pray for my wife Sharon who had a stroke “almost” Friday while getting our 5yr grand daughter old out of the bath tub. She is numb on the right side, getting better to understand her and pressure is high put not out of control. I said almost because the doctor said she suffered the symptoms of a stroke but did not actually have one. So it’s a warning, she smokes, is 5’2″, weighs 189. Eats candy snack cakes isn’t lazy but doesn’t do any exercise per day and drinks Coke 4 a day. I think she will come home, get a therapy nurse and get all or most back but I’m the pessimist. LOl I love you all and could sometimes “feel” the prays from some of you before and it helped! Praise Jesus Christ.
    Thank You
    plumbape
    Michael

  42. BruceC says:

    cbrown,

    You don’t have to tell them they are thieves, liars, etc. They already know it. Believe me I have seen it.
    But many do need to see that what they is sin and not okay. God’s loves them enough to pay the penalty for that.

    Michael “plumbape”

    Will pray for your wife brother. And for you as well.
    The modern church needs more like you. We all need to show more love and learn more of it and from it. God bless you.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  43. SFDBWV says:

    Luke 23:34 “Father, forgive them; for them know not what they do.”

    Them; whom is Jesus referring to?

    Is it the Roman soldiers casting lots for His clothes?
    Those responsible for nailing Him to the cross?
    Those whom have rejected Him?

    John 11:42 “And I knew that thou hearest Me always:”

    God always hears the Son!

    John 17:1-26 in this prayer Jesus offers up to God there is no wrath only salvation.

    Then we come to Romans 5:6 “Christ died for the ungodly.” And in Romans 5:8 God commanded that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us and in Romans 5:9 we are saved from wrath.

    Clearly those of us *in* Christ are saved from the wrath of God, but what of those who have yet to accept Christ?

    Christ also paid the price for their sins as well, just like for us.

    What is it that bothers us about sinners in our midst receiving the same pardon for their actions as we have already?

    Why do we want others to *feel* the wrath of God, for rejecting God while we are comforted in believing we escape for accepting Him?

    My attention is directed to Revelation 19:20 whereas the *beast* and the *false prophet* are cast into a lake of fire and again to Revelation 20:10 where the *devil* joins them, then on to Revelation 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15.

    A great white throne, with Him setting on it.
    The dead small and great stand before God; their books and a separate *book* of life were opened, they were judged according to their works
    Death and hell deliver up them which are in them and every man judged according to their works.
    Death and hell are also cast into the lake of fire.
    Whosoever is not found written in the *book of life* is also cast into the lake of fire.

    Personally I find it interesting that death and hell are cast into this lake; one being a condition and the other a place.

    It seems that God has done away with both.

    Looking at it that way it would also seem that even though God says that the devil, the beast and the false prophet shall be tormented day and night forever, they too seem to be done away with.

    Yet it is also said that whoever is not found written in the book of life is cast into this same lake, they seem to be also done away with.

    These judgments seem to be the ultimate wrath of God.

    So what then do we do with Jesus’ statement hanging on the cross? “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”?

    Will God deny Jesus’ request or honor it?

    Steve

  44. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    The only photo that is self-evident, in my view, is the shot of the photographer setting his f-stop before he takes the picture. The first and second photos might be a rising sun — or a setting sun — or one of each. I will guess they are both sunsets.

    The objective truth is there, but even with a light meter or an atomic clock we mortals do not know what time it is. Jesus said, “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matt 24:36-37) Our best guide is not others, or any religion or theory — but rather prayerful Scripture reading and study and mutual encouragement in the love (not the wrath) of God.

    “For as long as it’s still God’s Today, keep each other on your toes so sin doesn’t slow down your reflexes. If we can only keep our grip on the sure thing we started out with, we’re in this with Christ for the long haul.” (Hebrews 3:13-14, translated by Eugene Peterson)

    Blessings,
    Maru

  45. Artle says:

    Let’s look at the wrath of God from a slightly different view.

    There is joy in heaven over one sinner who repents. Does God have delight and pleasure (joy) with a sinner who does not repent? I use these two words, delight and pleasure, because they are antonyms of the word wrath. The wrath of God exists along with his delight and pleasure, wrath for the unrepentant and delight/pleasure for the lost soul that is found. The wrath of God does not consume the lost soul; only rests on the lost soul until they repent and the wrath is replaced by delight.

  46. poohpity says:

    God seems to be saying in John 3:16 that He loves those of the whole world. That to me means sinners and saints alike all of them, everybody. God seems to look at all of them through the blood of His Son. Nothing anyone in the whole world past, present and future could do earn that or it would not be grace. God knows that “ALL” fall short of His Glory. So if your a believer or future believers everybody still sins it never goes away until we are out this body. So watch out if you ever sin again because God’s wrath will be upon you!!!!

  47. poohpity says:

    It may be that we are talking over one another when it comes to wrath. I see correction, rebuke or chastening as a means to bring us to restoration in a relationship which is shown in love, mercy and grace. Wrath seems to impart punishment, oppression, shame and fear which causes as person to feel less than, worthless and scared. If I had to equate it with something human I would say the difference in a brutal dictatorship like that of China or North Korea who rule by fear that have taken away the personal freedoms of their peoples.

    I can not imagine those dictators ever wanting a relationship with the people they rule over enough to call them children, brothers/sisters or friends. If they fear and follow on that count because of retribution then it is not out of a choice it is demanded. Loves allows us freedom, wrath demands servitude.

    I find it a bit odd to say the lest that those who do not believe in God have no fear of Him yet those who believe even after experiencing His grace go on to fear Him, how is that? After one has learned of His great love for us goes on to believe He is wrathful and vengeful when it should be the exact opposite!! I am so confused. Or does it have to do with living what we are taught from the different denominations or our own parents way of parenting and not really reading the Bible?

  48. poohpity says:

    Indy, praying for your family healing for your wife, comfort for all and the knowing that God’s hands have you covered with His care. Praising God with you, Deb

  49. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all…
    rrbck1… thanks, I’m also having a little trouble following the this loose throwing around of theology about, the people of book reference myself.

    Which book are we talkiing about here?

    If the book we are talking about is the Holy Bible which clearly says that Jesus Christ is God, then neither the Jews, or the Muslims fully believe that book.

    Are we saying that the Muslim book of faith, the Koran, is the bible?

    Or, are we now “taking the book apart,” to fit different religions?

    Or are we waiting for God to fit ALL humanity into believing only Jesus Christ and folowing only His word?

    This finding of hell just being a place, and death, or the lake of fire, being something else is also troubling.

    Where does it say that both are done away with? Give me the verses I can read for myself.

    According to scripture,there is no final death or total loss of consceincessness even in the second death, or for those who are thrown in the lake of fire which is the same place called hell, where they will burn for eternity.

    Where in the bible does it say that anyone can repent of anything after the first death?

    There is no repenting, but only judgement, according to the Holy Bible, or the book, I believe.

    The book where thire consuming worm lives forever.

    Steve, I may have misread your post, but I read what you said, if you say that Satan is not going to spend his eternity in the lake of fire because it is no longer going to be there…or done away with?

    I need some more evidence like all the other things that must be substantiated in the bible to be good theology, where it says, “It is written.”

    Jerry McQuire may say,”Show me the money!”

    I have to say, Show me the verses…
    First, where everyone gets saved, and then, where hell is done away with.
    Gary

  50. oneg2dblu says:

    I wonder why we the “followers of the book,” would be subjected to or even need any mention of any second death, if Christ already died for all the sins of all the world, and for everyone, the first time?

    Does Christ having lived as man also need to die twice, or is it priviledge just for the sinners only, those who according to some theology are already forgiven, because He died for them?

    I guess we all can’t have it “our way,” and for some of us more legalistic ones, according to the actual words or the bible, eternity will be spent in one of two places, Heaven, or Hell.

    Gary

    It is written!

  51. Bill says:

    Steve’s observations and insights are valid and worthy of consideration. Pooh also offers valid questions in her posts. They understand the depth of Jesus’ love.

    The issue of God’s wrath (which is the subject of Mart’s thread) comes down to this:

    1. Did Jesus’ action on the cross only remove the sin and punishment for the elect, a finite number of people?

    or

    2. Did Jesus’ action on the cross remove all sin from the world, effectively and finally taking away the punish and wrath for it for everyone?

    Of course, these issues are known as Limited Atonement/Predestination and Universalism, respectively.

    I’ve studied both for decades. And I have found ample verses to support both. In short, there is no definite answer to this issue.

    What is clear, however, is that Christians cannot see eye to eye, and often don’t get along when the conversation enters into this area, which it almost always does.

    This is why love trumps all. The Bible is clear on that issue. Very clear. The world will judge us by how we treat one another, not by our theology or doctrinal positions.

    Jesus did not merely preach the Gospel. Jesus IS the Gospel. He does not point to the truth. He IS the truth.

    So if we follow Jesus, do as he does, with unconditional and self-sacrificial love, we cannot be condemned – not by God, not by the world. A search of the Bible, seeking out references to love, will indicate all one needs to know.

    Again, I refer people to the slim volume The Mark of the Christian by the late Francis A. Schaeffer. That book is a must-read for all believers.

    Here’s why:

    * There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. *

    (1 John 4:18-21, ESV)

    Or this:

    “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

    (John 13:35 ESV)

    “…that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”

    (John 17:21, ESV)

    There is nothing to be gained by in-fighting, arguing, and especially using the club of “speaking the truth in love” on one another — or, worse, on unbelievers.

    Jesus IS the truth. Jesus IS the Gospel. Jesus IS the way. The “truth” we speak in love to one another is JESUS.

    If we align our lives with Jesus, and if we speak JESUS truth in JESUS love, we will be one with each other, and a shining example to unbelievers.

    That’s what it’s all about, folks. It’s that simple.

    Love to all,

    Bill

  52. SFDBWV says:

    Gary, dear brother, In Revelation 21:1 it states that the first heaven and the first earth are gone/passed away. In Revelation 21:4 it states “And God shall wipe away all tears; and there shall be no more *death*, neither *sorrow*, nor *crying*, neither shall there be any more pain: *for the former things are passed away*.” In Revelation 22:5 there is no night.

    All the way back to the beginning in Genesis 1:1, God created the heaven and the earth. This is and has always been seen as *the beginning* of creation. God created the light and the darkness.

    Here in Revelation 21 we have a *new* creation, as said the *former* things are *passed away*. There is no more darkness!

    The beast, the false prophet the devil are tormented *night* and *day* (Revelation 20:10) in the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14 states *death* and *hell* are also cast into this lake and whosoever’s name is not written in the book of life.

    In the new creation there is no night and all former things are passed away.

    I really have no time to elaborate further right now, I hope you get the direction of my thoughts, but before I do go I want to ask you something.

    What bothers you more Gary, the idea that people you think should suffer *forever* may not, or that they get the same pardon you do with out working for it?

    Steve

  53. Artle says:

    I enjoy the perspectives presented here.

    I see wonderfully different perspectives from people with different backgrounds, understanding, insights and views. I learn as much from trying to see someone’s point of view as I do from what they say. My perspective changed in trying to see pooh’s way of seeing and same with looking at Steve’s comments, what Gary said in response and even what Bill commented after. If the conversation does seem a bit strained at times, I still don’t see it as a problem. A perfect discussion understood perfectly by all would not serve much purpose, would it?

    I do agree the most important thing is quite simple. Jesus is the way and the truth and the life (John 14:6) and love of God and neighbor certainly simplify the commandments.

  54. Artle says:

    pooh, I think you have something there in that we have been influenced by too much fire and brimstone preaching (and parenting too maybe). That is why I point out the opposite of wrath can be delight or pleasure. I do not see the wrath of God as an action on his part.

  55. Artle says:

    Gary, I waiver back and forth over whether many will be saved or few. Obvious to me one must accept Jesus to have eternal life and likewise obvious if one doesn’t accept Jesus they do not have eternal life.

    Not aware of any actual number that are cast into hell or not.

    Not differing on this, just saying I don’t know, but is there a verse or easily understood passages that plainly state hell is for eternity?

  56. foreverblessed says:

    Artle
    Good questions
    Sometimes it makes me very unsettled: to think in this way: because God says that the unrepented sinner goes to hell forever, so it must be this way, or otherwise God is a liar. As if we want it to be this way: The wrath of God must be true, not only true, but forever.
    While someone mentioned here: the wrath of God is only for a moment.

    While maybe God wants to look at our heart: what do you yourself want for all these sinners? Would you pray like Moses did: God blot me out of the book of life, so that they may come in, Or the prayer of Paul, which was also a plea to God in Romans 9,
    it is called Paul’s anguish over Israel: “2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. “

  57. foreverblessed says:

    Forever in hell, and God’s mercy is never ending,
    both things are stated in the bible,
    And all things are possible with God.
    also in the bible…

  58. Artle says:

    I cannot find scripture that plainly states hell is forever or that the wrath of God is forever. I’m not saying it’s not there; I just can’t find it. References would be helpful.

    Who are “all these sinners”?

  59. plumbape says:

    I’ve lived in man made hell and in order to break the chain of becoming a career I choose to go to segregation for about 13 months. It does not have a/c just huge fans on each end. this is Menard prison by East St Louis and when the sun went it was my side The south faces north & south. I used to strip, set on the toilet, and pour water over my head to fall asleep. I spoke to a chaplain and did mail order bible study having never been in church I didn’t have a clue. I thought when I discovered John3:16 I was on to something maybe everyone had missed! talk about not knowing your right hand from your left! I was 23 when off parole after 8 years in juvenile and 2 tips to max joints. I left the state but didn’t become an angel. When we went to the hospital to have our first it turned out to be twins, 1 more the next year then I fixed the problem, lol. God knew my whole idea of love was mixed up. I began to understand then. Decent people that don’t believe In Jesus could go to hell & be consumed by the fire after a day which will seem like eternity, ashes to ashes kinda thing. I saw a man near 7′ tall 300lb, viciously stab a man to death in front of my cell while he was laughing with psychotic grin on his face. I still have nightmares about it. I get up, read the daily bread and talk to Jesus through out the day like He was right there. I literally love Him more than anything and I show it to everybody! It’s wonderful! Thanks for listening to my rambling. Am wondering about Daisy Mary and Bob from England some where. I got my eye on you Forever Blessed and keep praying, to me I just talk to Him.
    With the Love Of Jesus
    Plumb Crazy oops
    Michael
    P>S> Love you to Mr. Mart De Haan

  60. poohpity says:

    plumbape, daisy seems to be still around when you see a hands down on most topics but have read some things from her on other blogs on RBC but not recently. She seemed to have it in for Mart a long time before she stopped and some also attacked her as they have others, not as in disagreeing either. Bob from England asked to be removed if I remember right.

  61. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve, why would you premise such a question as this, “What bothers you more Gary, the idea that people you think should suffer *forever* may not, or that they get the same pardon you do with out working for it?”

    That stuff does not play on this side of the street,
    because my beliefs or ideals don’t fall into those two little boxes, or categories.

    What bothers me more Steve, is why we would think anything “other than” what the bible says about those things, and why personalizing scripture to meet opinion is important at all, compared to what God actually says about who is going where and for how long.

    This verse about, All things pass away, may not mean that hell, or the lake if fire no longer exist.

    Or, the wprd of God no longer exists.

    Or the book of life no longer exists.

    Or the temple of God no longer exists.

    Or the Laws of God no longer exist.

    No, it speaks of heaven and earth, about another creation, about a new world where there is no
    darkness and suffering.

    But, there are still those who according to the word must go elsewhere because, It is written.
    You’ve named a few already who will not partake of that new realm because they are already predestined, or will be cast into eternal damnation in the future, where their suffering will never cease, according to the Word of God.

    But, If we only lay claim to this new religion of “love Wins” which is now becoming also the new prophesy of man, the new gospel message for all us lovers of this world, then I guess all older references like the ones in the bible that God wrote in and upon the hearts of man in the past, are now returning as void, especially if they dare mention anything other than this new, love wins.

    So, where the bible used to say, God is a jealous God, that must return void, because love is not jealous.

    and… Love Wins

    Where the bible says, God remembers their sins to the three and forth generation, that is void, because love does not hold accounts.

    and.. Love Wins

    Shall I go on and quote a few hundred more verses that this new love wins now tries to make void?

    Or, can we leave God’s word alone, giving Him a little wiggle room if you will, for His Wrath as well?

    Or has Ron Bell and his followers made the rest of the bible void also?

    To me, a “must read” for all Christians had better be the bible, where God’s Love and Wrath actually exist because, “It is written about in His word for a reason.

    We can’t erase all God’s words be implanting our new mantra, of “Love Wins.”

    I wonder why God didn’t choose to make His entire bible using only those two words, an just void out everything else like modern man is now trying?

    How about, “God is Love, and His Love wins?”

    Anytime we leave God out of the picture, the message, the mantra, the religion, the schools, or our prayers, and our loves, Satan seems to win!

    Just a thought…
    Gary

  62. Bill says:

    Love *does* win, Gary.

    No matter how hard you try to stamp it out, water it down, make it unseemly or worldly, or attribute it to Rob Bell in an attempt to denigrate it, you cannot change the Bible’s love to one of your own limited definition.

    Love put Jesus on the cross. Love kept him there. Love gathers us to him, and us all together. Love keeps us to the end and one day ushers us into the presence of the creator of the universe.

    Love wins, Gary. It does.

    Whether you want it to or not.

  63. remarutho says:

    Good Evening All —

    Have to agree on the one book being the Holy Bible alone — that making us all “people of the book” (an ecumenical term). As Bruce Feiler (author of “Abraham: Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths”) walked across Israel, he came again and again upon a great variety of folks who claim Abraham as their father.

    Jews first, Christians next, and finally Muslims all draw upon the faith of our father Abraham for strength and inspiration to continue into an uncertain future in the Middle East — especially the Holy Land. The only hope there, as everywhere, is Messiah Jesus. He brings love and mercy, not wrath.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  64. foreverblessed says:

    OK Maru, that sounds reasonable, thanks for making this issue clear.

    Plumbape, thanks for your concern, I pray for your wife, and I am so glad you are with her. Bless her, she needs lots of blessings, and I pray that God will release her from the grip of food, that He will make her whole through and through, body, soul and spirit!

    Bellue, thank you so much for sharing your testimony. That makes it more clear to me, that for some it is needed that the warning of hell is spoken to them.
    And I so agree with what you say too, wrath is the natural consequence of being independent of God.

    Gary, Love is jealous, but if no one if left who has another god then God, then love does not need to be jealous anymore. If that ever is possible, but with God everything is possible.

  65. foreverblessed says:

    Artl,
    Here are some bible verses about the words fire and forever:
    Revelation 19

    20 The two of them () the beast and the false prophet) were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

    Revelation 20
    10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits Strong Concordance nr 86

    Revelation 21

    6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

    This sounds all very very very sad.

    But it is not yet the end of the book:
    There comes a little more, and it goes like this:
    Revelation 22

    14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    So after it is told that they were thrown in the lake of fire, it is said that outside are the dogs, etc.
    They are still there!!!!

    But that is not the end yet:
    There is still more after that:

    16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
    17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

    Yes, at the end of all there is still an invitation, not only by Jesus, but also by the Bride!
    Yes, this is true, and invitation! And the Bride will do this together with Jesus.
    So I get it this way:
    Those thrown in the lake of fire are outside of the City, and inside of the City are Jesus and the Bride, and what do they do? They call: “”Come”

    Psalm 86:5 You, Lord, are forgiving and good, abounding in love to all who call to you.
    Psalm 145 :18 The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.

    (To be honoust, there are a few more verses after that, as a warning not to add or to delete anything from the bible, the punishment is not being thrown in the lake of fire, but having no part in the tree of life and in the Holy City)

  66. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… thanks for sharing those verses.
    Hearing your understanding of them is rather enlightening, as now you beleive we are to believe that those who are thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented for ever and ever, are also those who are given another chance to say “Come’ and be saved, even after they are found suffering in the second death, which means to me, they have already died and been judged.
    I would call that type of thinking to be adding just a wishful bit to the word, and we are not to really add anything.
    I thought I read somewhere in the word about one who was actually suffering in hell, who only wanted to warn his brothers, and would give anything for just one drop of water.
    He was surely desiring water, but not the water that would actually save him, because he was already judged and forever cast out of the kingdom.

    I do not believe he would also then be offered a chance to just say, “Come.”
    Unless I’ve read that wrong and need some more correcting, but I never thought about him or anyone else ever receiving their salvation after suffering in the second death.
    I thought for ever and ever, was for ever and ever.

    Gary

  67. remarutho says:

    Hello Foreverblessed –

    Referencing your post of 12:11 p.m. today:

    When I got back to BTA and the responses and reactions to my mention of the final in-gathering of the peoples, I was shocked at the character of what some here chose to write!

    People of the Book is an often-used term for the monotheistic, Abrahamic faiths. What book would I be referring to other than Torah and the subsequent writings of Holy Scripture? All three faiths receive the Word of God at least in part.

    Thank you for pausing to reflect before speaking.

    I am not fond of long, involved posts, so will leave it there.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  68. Artle says:

    Foreverblessed, I very much appreciate your thoughtful insights. I think some of the difference is due to bible versions, and I have no answer for where accepted versions of the Bible differ to the point of disagreement. I imagine God creates different versions to reach different minds which is what we are, all of us.

    Everyone, it is very easy to pluck bits and pieces from here and there in the Bible and believe what they mean, when in fact; they still only represent a very small part of the picture. It’s also easy, and sometimes needful, to cling to a verse when it means so much, and hold back the things that are difficult. No one here has all the perfect answers and I would not expect that any would. If they did, I imagine our hearts would be burning as He spoke and He would vanish after the blessing of the meal. All seem to have their foot to the path and that is most important.

    My idea is we only understand what we need to and are capable of bearing at the moment, which I am thankful for. So, we can all come away with different understandings that are important to where we each are at the moment.

    The wrath of God has a purpose which is clear to me and clearer now than a few days ago. If the idea of the wrath of God is too much, then ask Jesus to take the burden from you and whether you understand it or not, you will be relieved, and God’s peace and love will be yours. I pray that all I say is not mine, but His and that He will use it His Glory.

  69. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Artle, thank you very much.
    Gary, if we take it literal what is said in Revelation, then you must agree that only for the beast, the false prophet and the devil it is said that they will be tormented for ever and ever.
    For the rest who are thrown into the lake of fire, it is not said that they will be there for ever and ever.
    And the man who wanted water, it does nowhere say that he will be there for ever and ever.
    It says that it is impossible to go to the other side, but it is not added that it is for ever and ever.
    So you see, who is adding to what is actually stated?

  70. oneg2dblu says:

    Now who is being legalistic?

    Yes, I see that everyone is capable of adding or taking away, or we would not have had to be warned about such things.

    Like all the wanings in God’s word, they are there for a reason.

    Because we all at times seem to put words where they do not exist, maybe just to help us fill in the blanks that we all sometimes have.

    Or, like some preachers today, we even leave out the hard verses or words that may give others or ourselves some form of discomfort.

    The word of God also says, “Without faith it is impossible to please God.”

    To me that means, it is not ever possible to please God without faith.

    How long is not ever?

    When does what God says is impossible, suddenly become possible?

    It may well be an eternity if you are waiting for something to happen that God says is impossible, or is not ever going to happen.

    Thank God, that others before us, actually listened to the warnings, and then did not add or take away the words from that book of Revelation we have written for us today.

    Or have certain translations tweeked it up a touch, adding their own words, just for our understanding?

    Gary

  71. belleu says:

    Hello Blessed. Thanks for your comment. As for people suffering in hell forever, I believe that is a misinterpretation of Scripture. God says, “All the wicked I will destroy.” Destroy means gone forever. “The smoke of their torment…” I believe it means we will never forget what happened to the people who were judged and found to be evil. They will be destroyed, but their final end is a lesson never to be forgotten. Honestly, I could not love a God who would make people be in pain for eternity.

  72. Bill says:

    @Artle, this was well put (August 26, 2013 at 3:17 pm):

    “No one here has all the perfect answers and I would not expect that any would.”

    and

    “My idea is we only understand what we need to and are capable of bearing at the moment, which I am thankful for. So, we can all come away with different understandings that are important to where we each are at the moment.”

    Amen.

    @Gary, can you elaborate on what you wrote on August 26, 2013 at 8:35 pm? I’m not sure what you mean or what you imply with this:

    “The word of God also says, ‘Without faith it is impossible to please God.’

    “To me that means, it is not ever possible to please God without faith.”

    Are you suggesting that if one’s faith slips, let’s say during times of great challenge or doubt, that God isn’t “pleased” at that moment? If so, what does that lack of “pleased” look like? What does God do to the person who’s faith has been undermined by a tragedy or doubt? Is a believer, at such a moment, at risk of being cast away from God?

    Have you consider that phrase you quote to mean that once once believes in Jesus (has faith in the gospel of salvation), that God is then “pleased” with the person and never again becomes “unpleased” with the person?

    You seem to have an incredible fear of pastors or fellow believers slipping up, accidentally adding to or subtracting from the Bible, or believing the “wrong” thing. The more you post here, the more I see that you must live on the edge all the time — either always believing that your understanding of the Bible is flawless and the only correct way to view it…or constantly worried that you may slip up and find yourself on the outside of God’s love, looking in — like a child at Christmas peering into a store window at a train set he knows his parents cannot afford to buy him.

    Do you ever rest in God’s love, knowing for a certainty that you are his forever?

    @Belleu, what you wrote (August 26, 2013 at 10:07 pm) –

    “Honestly, I could not love a God who would make people be in pain for eternity.”

    – is why people are rethinking the Bible and what Jesus accomplished on the cross. Many authors/pastors/believers are wondering if the God they were taught in Sunday school is really the God of the Bible. So you’re not alone.

    I do not have all the answers. I have very few. But I have a lot of questions that I ponder, research, pray about.

    Love to all!

    Bill

  73. Artle says:

    We are limited to reading words whose meanings shift with time. As example (but not limited to),for ever and ever does not mean the same as forever. For ever and ever literally means more like for ages and ages, and could reference the future or the past. Forever is more of a term meaning for all the future time and it is never used in the KJV. It used 289 times in the NIV, but not once in Revelation. Not picking on either version, just the two I checked.

    Eternal is a word that seems to mean perpetual or everlasting. It is used mostly when referring to life or God or God’s glory, etc., but does pop up a few times for other uses. Mark used the term eternal damnation (Mark 3:29) for those who speak against the Holy Spirit. Jude used the term eternal fire (Jude 1:7) when speaking of fallen angels. The worst punishment seems to fall on those with the most to lose. Hmm, I’ve heard that somewhere.

    Point being, we are limited by our language(s), which is far less capable than that of the Holy Spirit’s (Romans 8:26). Perhaps the purpose is so we rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us, so we do not stumble.

  74. oneg2dblu says:

    So many questions, so little time.

    To me, the lake of fire= eternal damnation.

    If you are thrown into it, it is not just a resting place for future glorification, sanctification, salvation, or a mini vacation, it is eternal.

    Eternal= is forever, and ever, and ever, and ever.

    Bill, I enjoyed your loving synopsis of who Gary is in your mind, and perhaps others as well may agree, but your mind determines what it wants to.

    I can’t change what you want to have determined as your truth.

    So, I’ll choose not to entertain your list of possibilites about who I am.

    As I’ve said before, and before, and before, I’m His…

    Why don’t we just leave it at that for now?

    Even if that statment was a claim to be forever His, according to some, even using forever is not really for ever either?

    Impossible I guess, is now the new possible, and God can not possibly be a God of both Love and Wrath, if we can only see His Love as being everlasting, because to some that would be impossible.

    I really prefer using the “old stuff,” like Jesus Saves, over this new Love Wins, because then everyone knows just Who’s Love we are talking about.

    God’s Love, certainly not ours!

    God is perfect in all his ways, in using both His love and His Wrath.

    But not man…

    I’ll give you two points for your creativity though!

    To me, if you are the branch that is cut off and thrown in the fire, you are certainly destroyed.

    If you are the one who is thrown in the lake of fire, you will be tormernted forever, and ever, and ever, never ceasing destruction is your eternal place of existance.

    If that does not compute to your existance as being destroyed, then it is certainly worse.

    Gary

  75. phpatato says:

    Artie

    I was going to post something along the same lines as you (August 27, 2013 at 8:56 am). I was going to start with…….Lost In Translation.

    If only we knew what the Hebrew and/or Greek translations of the words that we are discussing are (or the original language of the words). If only we were there, in the time they were written, so that we could at least have a bit more knowledge as to their context. We are at the mercy of a group of Biblical scholars who chose to translate words..eternal, for ever, forever and a whole slew of other words…into the English language. Anybody who has had to learn English knows just how difficult the language is to learn. Too, to, two – there, their, they’re – your, you’re – are now noticeably and constantly misspelled and interchanged in today’s text messages and writings. Also, they each have different meanings. Then let us talk about grammar – synonyms and antonyms – and add that to the mix. It’s no wonder that theretheirthey’re is confusion in reading and understanding what is trying to be said.

    I fully and totally agree:

    “Point being, we are limited by our language(s), which is far less capable than that of the Holy Spirit’s (Romans 8:26). Perhaps the purpose is so we rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us, so we do not stumble.”

    Is it that we are making mountains out of mole-hills? Or are we just not happy until we have dissected each and every verse in the Bible to have it match what we, in our own minds, are convinced is the only and right way to read it.

    I love child-like faith. Children are simple to the max. They believe without getting so deeply involved as to become paranoid or angry or defensive or…..They keep it Simple-Stupid! Perhaps it doesn’t hurt to look through the eyes of a child now and then. They can teach us adults more than we give them credit for.

    Hugs to All

    Pat

  76. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… you wrote
    “Gary, can you elaborate on what you wrote on August 26, 2013 at 8:35 pm? I’m not sure what you mean or what you imply with this:

    “The word of God also says, ‘Without faith it is impossible to please God.’

    “To me that means, it is not ever possible to please God without faith.”

    I was trying to explain that being thrown into the lake of fire was not a temporal condition, as being the “amount of time” it would take to move from impossible to possible, if God’s word says something is impossible.

    It seems to me that confusing fleeting or not fleeting salvation as the issue, is another issue.

    I wish you had asked, “Is God pleased about what that verse says, is impossible?”

    I guess He alone determines what pleases Him, and if we want to know what that is that pleases Him, we need to know what is in His word.

    Sorry I was further confusing things.

    Gary

  77. belleu says:

    For all the verses on eternal damnation, which people believe means suffering forever, there are many more like these verses in Malachi 4.

    “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”

    “Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the LORD Almighty.”

    I think we have to take every verse in the Bible on the death of the wicked, compile them all and come up with the truth about hell and what it means.

  78. Artle says:

    Pat, I almost wrapped that comment up with, let’s not get lost in translation.

    You also said “I love child-like faith.”, echoing the thoughts of Jesus. 2 He called a child, whom he put among them, 3 and said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:2-4)

  79. poohpity says:

    Children can obey because they love their parents or because they fear their wrath. Those that grow up healthy usually with a good relationship with their parents are those who are taught with love and respect. Fearing wrath they usually do not share their inner most thoughts and lives with their parents because they fear repercussion. One promotes a very close relationship the other promotes a far off, distant relationship. One sets up guidelines to live by with consequences while the other no matter the offense results in a punitive reaction.

    Thinking of God in a wrathful mindset folks usually follow Him as a distant God who they may feel does not get involved with their everyday life but only from a distance watching every step they take in fear of doing things wrong which paralyzes them and most do not do anything cause they are so scared of messing up.

  80. phpatato says:

    Deb

    I agree that once a child becomes old enough to know and reason that what you said is sadly true for those who have the misfortune of being raised like that. What I had in mind, are the 4 and 5 year olds who hopefully haven’t yet been tarnished by parents who have bad parenting skills. Young children are innocent and trusting and can usually, if we adults listen carefully, tell it like it really is. And if the children you are talking about had a chance to let their guard down, to be themselves and be free to speak with abandonment, I think they would surprise us with the wisdom they have that has been suppressed.

    Really I wasn’t thinking of obeying and fearing wrath either. I had in mind, when I wrote what I did, Art Linkletter interviewing young children – Kids say the darndest things. Anybody remember that show and yes I’m showing my age. :-)

    As Artie has pointed out, Jesus Himself, paid particular attention to them. There is a sweet simplicity to child-like faith.

    Pat

  81. poohpity says:

    I really was not commenting on what you wrote Pat I really had not even read it yet only from belleu down, but the conversation about children brought to mind for those who were raised by authoritarian parents and possibly now feel that God is like that in regards to wrath.

    I totally agree that God would love us to have that kind of faith that is as trusting as a child and as open and honest. I think that it is still possible for people to have that type of faith but many adults have a problem with that type of faith because they seem to be so used to controlling and being in control.

  82. cbrown says:

    1 Corinthians Love never fails; but if there are gifts of [c]prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I [d]became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror [e]dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the [f]greatest of these is love. When we see the Lord face to face there will be no need for faith and hope but the works of faith will remain. Seeing God face to face is overwhelming but “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.

  83. phpatato says:

    Deb

    I so agree with what you said. I think adults become too wrapped up in too many details sometimes, and they can become very controlling with the knowledge they think they possess. I read an old Daily Bread about knowledge last night. The ending thought was “You can get knowledge from college, but wisdom comes from God”. I’ve also heard it said that “head knowledge is good but heart knowledge is indispensable”. I believe young children have the heart knowledge. They love without borders.

    (I had a very authoritarian grandmother. When I was young, I remember thinking that she was absolutely no fun to be around. I never really looked forward to visiting her.)

    Have a good day!

    Pat

  84. oneg2dblu says:

    Pat.. that was a great quote, “Children love without borders.”
    How wonderful is that!

    Also a good reason why they need parental guidence!

    Could you imagine a world run by children and without borders being anything but chaos?

    God being Our Heavenly Father knows well how we function without them, so He gave us His borders when He gave us His Law.

    Like all things we need borders or we lose our balance.

    It seems we don’t seem to walk properly with them.

    Perhaps that is why God chose a good balance in using both His Wrath and His Love to help give us a proper footing and perspective.
    Gary

  85. oneg2dblu says:

    It seems we don’t seem to (type) walk properly ‘without’ them. :0

  86. poohpity says:

    Gary, don’t you think that child like faith is one area that God would always like us to have and the more we grow to know God the more we learn to depend on Him? God sufficiency rather than self sufficiency.

  87. oneg2dblu says:

    Absolutely!

  88. poohpity says:

    If you absolutely believe that then why do you feel it is your job to point out sin in others, do you not trust God to do that? If you believe that then why do not people see that God’s wrath was satisfied by those 39 strips that ripped apart the back of Jesus and then placed Him on that Cross as an atonement for the sins of the world? I think that when we say we have faith of a child we do not need to think we are doing the work of God by judging, condemning, putting fear into people of God’s wrath, retaliating, hating. If we have faith then we will leave so many things into the hands of God and just do what He has asked us to do by loving others as God has loved us by showing them His grace and mercy.

    If we have faith then we will serve as He served not demanding His own way but was lead as a lamb to slaughter for an example of God’s great love for His creation. If we have faith then why do we not love enemies? If we have faith then why do we not believe when we hold others to such high standards as the religious leaders did that they were in fact convicting and judging their selves of all that they saw in others? Romans 2:1

    A child knows that their parent will care for them and they do not have to take it upon themselves to provide, protect, guide and love them. They trust and depend completely. One can say they have the faith of a child but do they really? It is hard once one has grown with all the trails, sorrows and suffering that has caused so many scars to go back to that kind of child like faith, but it is possible and only probable when one has opened the door to accept Jesus. We can not earn faith it is a gift bestowed upon those who believe as Jesus takes us back to a stage of being a child trusting in His care when we have come to the end of ourselves.

  89. Bill says:

    That was very well put, Pooh.

    I think that’s what bugs me about some of Gary’s posts. He’s constantly trying to root out sin — in believers, no less!

    Sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin.

    And sin. And sin.

    And more sin.

    And still more sin.

    That, coupled with a very healthy disdain (distrust?) for love, forgiveness, and compassion, paints a picture of God that’s extremely vengeful and capricious.

    @Gary, on August 28, 2013 at 12:08 pm you wrote:

    “God being Our Heavenly Father knows well how we function without them, so He gave us His borders when He gave us His Law.

    “Like all things we need borders or we lose our balance.

    “It seems we don’t seem to walk properly with them.

    “Perhaps that is why God chose a good balance in using both His Wrath and His Love to help give us a proper footing and perspective.”

    To that, I say:

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22-23, ESV)

    He gave us Jesus, Gary! Jesus took away the sins of the world. How can the law compare to Jesus? In Jesus, we have everything we need to function as children of God Almighty.

    The Bible also tells me this:

    “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:29-30, ESV)

    If I had to constantly worry about every move I made, every thought I had, for fear of incurring God’s wrath I’d be a basket case. There’s nothing “light” about the Jesus you preach, brother. Your theology is very, very, very heavy, very weighty, serious to the point of oppressive.

    Either I can rest in Jesus, or I cannot. And if I cannot, then God isn’t much of a God then, is he?

    Bill

  90. Artle says:

    Ever heard the expression, “It’s difficult to see the picture if you are inside the frame.”? That’s where y’all are, inside the frame and since I have not been around that long, I’m still outside the frame. Would y’all like to know what I see?

  91. Artle says:

    I see a group of people, without exception, that care about what happens to the people around them. Some may show the care in different ways, but why else would they be here.

    If you really want to help all that you can, your mind and heart has to be wide open to accept what comes your way. God needs no one to correct anyone else; believe me, and if not me, believe your own experience.

    If on occasion, someone tosses a stick over the fence, the best way forward is to leave it lying on the ground. Never know if what you might pick up.

  92. poohpity says:

    Artle, so are you correcting while teaching not to correct? I am confused. I was not correcting Gary only asking to clarify what he said about the faith of a child. Sometimes it helps to restate what another has said to get clarification which prevents assuming or misunderstanding.

  93. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don’t but I never get upset with you because I believe your messages are all based on love and concern for others. I don’t see you pointing out the sins in others. To me it is more like you believe a storm took the bridge out down the road and your warning those traveling that road of the potential danger. Thank you for your concern.

    Pooh, I have no idea what you were saying to Gary or to Artle, but it sure seems to me that you were trying to put them in “their place” and as you pointed out to Gary….it may not be your “place” to do that.

    Artle, that was EXCELLENT advice about leaving the stick on the ground and I probably should have taken it, but sometimes I think it just needs to get picked up and thrown back over.

  94. poohpity says:

    narrow, do you try and put people in their place? Where is their place anyway?

  95. Artle says:

    pooh, I did not have an alleged pooh-correcting-Gary in mind. What made you think I did?

    narrow, If you are talking about just now, I don’t think you threw it, but I can see you have it in your hand. :-)

  96. Artle says:

    As a matter of fact I had no other particular comment in mind. If anyone thinks I did, why is it that you do?

  97. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, I think you know exactly what I meant and I don’t think and “clarification” as you like to put it, is needed. Have a good night.

  98. narrowpathseeker says:

    Artle. Sometimes I don’t do to well at accepting everything that comes my way, but I think you are right that we should and I need a lot of work in that area.

    I am going to type up your analogy of the stick and keep it on my desk. Thank you.

    Pearl

  99. narrowpathseeker says:

    “any” not and and “too” not to…sorry…it’s late. ;-)

  100. Artle says:

    Notice how the Wrath of God (this topic) seems to linger and not go away. Perhaps there is more to learn here.

    Instead of thinking, “If God has wrath, he must be evil”, realize that if it is part of God, wrath must be for good. Accept this and now you can work on understanding how wrath can be good.

    “How happy is the one whom God reproves; therefore do not despise the discipline of the Almighty. For he wounds, but he binds up; he strikes, but his hands heal.” (Job 5 17:18)

    “Dear Lord, would you please reprove me as needed, chastise me when I won’t listen and yes, visit me with your wrath rather than let me perish. All from Your Love and for your Glory” Artle 9:40

  101. Bill says:

    Artle,

    Whenever I see prayers like the one with which you ended your post, I think of the scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, specifically the scene in which they invoke scripture to use the Holy Hand Grenade:

    * …And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, “O LORD, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy.” And the LORD did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu… [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to “skip a bit, brother”]… And the LORD spake, saying, “First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.” *

    “Visit me with your wrath…all from Your Love and for your Glory” seems right in keeping with that scene.

    Bill

    P.S. You can watch the scene on YouTube if you search for “Monty Python – Holy Hand Grenade.” (The poster named HopelessRomantic27 has a 2:19 version of it with over 2.3 million views.)

  102. poohpity says:

    The friend of Job that spoke in Job 5:17-18 had a wrong impression of God and we find that out in the last chapters of Job as God rebukes and asks Job to sacrifice and pray for them. Job 42:7-9 NIV

  103. poohpity says:

    Not only can we have a wrong impression about God but we can also have wrong impressions of our friends, neighbors, those we consider enemies and brother/sisters in Christ. I think that is why Jesus asked us not to judge, criticize and/or assume.

  104. Artle says:

    Bill, I opened my heart and shared a moment with my Lord. He heard my prayer, and He understands why I ask for the things I did.

    I apologize in that I did not read your entire comment as, fairly quickly, I found no comfort. I have difficulty reconciling your words that I have heard you speak with your actions. Perhaps I can do better as eternity approaches. In other words, we have plenty of time to understand each other.

  105. poohpity says:

    Sometimes changing our old patterns of thinking can be uncomfortable or even when we step out in faith it can be very uncomfortable. Growth I have found most times can be quite painful as it stretches us however staying as we are is safe and comfortable but does no good as it often times means we are not continually growing in our knowledge and understanding of our Lord which never ceases until we go home to be with Him.

  106. Artle says:

    pooh, Would Solomon be an acceptable source for the idea in lieu of Job’s friend?

  107. Bill says:

    @Artle on August 29, 2013 at 9:12 pm you wrote:

    “Bill, I opened my heart and shared a moment with my Lord. He heard my prayer, and He understands why I ask for the things I did.

    “I apologize in that I did not read your entire comment as, fairly quickly, I found no comfort. I have difficulty reconciling your words that I have heard you speak with your actions. Perhaps I can do better as eternity approaches. In other words, we have plenty of time to understand each other.”

    I think you’re being disingenuous.

    You see, friend, my comment about your prayer — by the way, if it was just between you and your Lord, why did you post it here? — had nothing to do with you or your character. It was about the linking of the words “wrath” with “love” that confuses so many non-believers — and believers, alike, I’m afraid. It was why the clip from Monty Python is so funny. We’re laughed at because we attributed to God qualities that make him appear to be schizophrenic and capricious.

    Your reply to me, on the other hand, was about my character. You didn’t comment on my comment; you commented on my character. That’s entirely different.

    How do you know what my actions are? Do you know me at all, even slightly? Do you know what I do with my time when I’m not posting here?

    I am far, far, far from perfect. I’ll be the first to admit that. But those who know me personally know one thing for sure about me: I AM a loving, compassionate, give-you-the-shirt-off-my-back kind of guy. How you can say my words don’t match my actions is a leap of faith greater than I could ever make.

    To be honest, I’m not sure I see a point to Been Thinking About. The same people, posting the same stuff over and over again, “offending” and “apologizing” endlessly to each other is an extremely strange raison d’être for a blog to have.

    Don’t get me wrong. I absolutely dig reading some of the posts here. I think Steve, for example, embodies more wisdom than most people I’ve encountered in life. We would all do well to heed him.

    I think Pooh has tremendous depth and experience, she just lacks self confidence to express it without feeling hurt by naysayers.

    Gary has a vast knowledge of the Bible, yet seems to lack the compassion to apply what he knows to the real world.

    Everybody here has amazing strengths, as well as weaknesses common to all. Myself included.

    What this group lacks is the ability to come together as one, setting aside matters of learned doctrine (and all that divides us), and actually DO something as a family of believers, brothers and sisters in the Lord.

    Granted, there are weaknesses inherent in “communicating” like this, the written word, separated by thousands of miles. So, for example, you can’t see that my teeth are not gritted, I am not angry, and that I am, to be honest, smiling as I type this. I have no malice of any kind toward anyone here.

    What I dislike about BTA is that we cannot seem to get past the factions, the sniping, the feigned offenses, the hollow apologies, the in-fighting.

    Every blog Mart posts — and, trust me, I think Mart is a brilliant writer, far more accomplished than he is willing to admit — results in the same divisions into camps. We have the Gary camp, the Pooh camp, the Steve camp, the Bill camp, the [fill in the blank] camp. We pretend to communicate, but we’re just lobbing Holy Hand Grenades over the parapets into each other’s strongholds.

    There’s always a feeling of walking on eggshells here, like we’re all deathly afraid of offending anyone. We use ChristianSpeak instead of real English. We hide behind verses that we’ve clung to all our lives. We cloak ourselves in the theology and doctrines instilled in us from our pastors and churches…and then insist that we absolutely KNOW the truth.

    I contend there’s a whole world out there that we know absolutely nothing about — starting with the world inside our churches, homes, Bibles, and minds. We do NOT know everything there is to know about the Bible, about God, about being a Christian. We do NOT know what salvation means, what was accomplished on the cross, or what we’re supposed to do as believers. We may THINK we know. But we don’t.

    I would love to see BTA become a haven for people to discuss, openly, their thoughts. I would LOVE to see give-and-take, real synergy, of ideas and beliefs. Challenges to personally held beliefs.

    We all have God wrapped up so nice and tight, crammed in a box on which we’ve scrawled in black Sharpie letters: “GOD.” We think what’s inside the box really is God.

    Artle, please know this is NOT about you or your character. Your comment seemed like the perfect time to share my thoughts. Please feel free to reject them as you see fit. I and my thoughts are not one. I will not be offended if you say my thoughts are full of crap.

    To all, please make note of this. Write it down, print it out, tack it up by your computer:

    “When Bill comments, he does NOT intend to offend, attack character, or belittle me or anyone else. He is a plain-speaking, exuberant guy who reads voraciously, thinks deeply, and feels even more deeply than that. The only assumption I can make about Bill that will always be true is that he loves me and would be at my side in a heartbeat should I ever need a helping hand, or even just a hug.”

    That’s it. If you keep that in mind about me you will never have to wonder what’s behind my posts. Or who I am, for that matter.

    We’re all adults here. Let’s either don suits of armor so thick that we cannot pierce them…or — better yet — drop all pretenses and just allow ourselves to BE. Vulnerable. Open. Honest. Loving.

    Let’s be real people, working together to fix the world in which we live — before it’s too late.

    Much love to all,

    Bill

  108. narrowpathseeker says:

    Artle, I don’t know what is going on, but it almost seems as though you are undergoing some sort of cruel initiation. Sometimes, we can have other things going on that cause us to get off track and derail onto others. Please don’t be turned away. I find your comments very heartfelt, humble, and kind.

  109. Artle says:

    narrow, not to worry. I know who I am. I know my Father. I know my Lord and Savoir.

  110. remarutho says:

    Morning to all checking out “The Wrath of God”–

    Wow, Bill! Your post of 8:27 a.m. is very long. :o)

    Blessings,
    Maru

  111. Artle says:

    Bill, you stated what I have felt the need to state, but did not know the group well enough to be so bold. A few things I might not have said, but the gist of your message is so close to my thinking about BTA and the group interaction, it is uncanny; your hand grenade = my stick.

    When I read someone’s thoughts, I picture their face. I have images of everyone in my mind that becomes clearer with each comment and I have imagined you smiling at the keyboard.

    The diversity of the group is somewhat unique and I believe the diverse thoughts bring greater learning. How can I learn from anyone who thinks the same as me?

    I have my ideas, and this may not make sense, and may even seem disingenuous, but I neither accept nor deny other ideas that are beyond what seems to be necessary or needful. I will try to make that clearer when I post in topics that may have lines drawn, with grenade launchers on alert.

  112. oneg2dblu says:

    Talk about throwing a “stick” over the fence… that was more like being hit by the entire thrashing floor.

    That was more GodSpeak wasn’t it?

    Why is it… that the Oops, I’m Sorry, I Appoligise, Please Forgive, Only seems to come, after one regurgitates their rant?

    Oh yeah, that is the excercising of self expression that comes “before” the spirit self corrects.

    Oops, I did it again!

    Although I’ve always enjoyed a little productive well rounded panter, or even constructive critisism at times, I rather felt overtones of something else, something deeper perhaps, which presents us with another need to pray for each other.

    Lets all run to our prayer closets first though, so we do not openly offend anyone. :0

    This is a Christian blog, We come to share what we can, when we can, however we can, and as long as we can tolerate it ourselves, and the fact that others can’t seem to, only means they can’t seem to.

    You know what they say about those who keep doing the same thing over and over expecting to find a different result?

    They rant on, and on, and on!

    Or, they move on to higher ground, “Ooops!”

    That was only written as entertainment, I am not a highly qualified professional that can write you any acript other than what you have just digested.

    Take that every few hours and call me in the morning if it does not cure you!

    No one comes here without their own faults.

    Lets all try to lighten up and be more like His Dear Children again.

    Gary

  113. oneg2dblu says:

    Appologise? Sorry!!

  114. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, I smiled at your first line,”Talk about throwing a “stick” over the fence… that was more like being hit by the entire thrashing floor.”, because I thought almost the same thing except in lieu of thrashing floor I thought telephone pole.”

    Bill, are you and Pooh the same person with different accounts?

  115. poohpity says:

    Artle, if Solomon in any way proved the wrath of God it would be acceptable but I see in his life the mercy and grace of our Lord rather than His wrath. However David did write in Psalm 139:23-24 NIV wouldn’t it be nice if we all had that kind of desire then there would be no need for sticks or hand grenades.

  116. phpatato says:

    Ya’ll won’t mind if I just laugh right out loud by all of this because I am sorry but I find this becoming just too funny!

    On the serious side of things though, Mart, words fail me on how to express how my heart hurts for you. Please, be patient with us again. Someday it might just click into place for all of us (hoping that you have the patience of Job). Take heart in knowing that the rubik’s cube was solved. Hopefully for us, as we get to find our place, it will all someday come together for us.

    Today more than ever….hugs to All.

    Pat

  117. Bill says:

    Artle,

    You rock. Seriously. You got what I was trying to convey with your post of August 30, 2013 at 11:39 am:

    “Bill, you stated what I have felt the need to state, but did not know the group well enough to be so bold. A few things I might not have said, but the gist of your message is so close to my thinking about BTA and the group interaction, it is uncanny; your hand grenade = my stick.”

    I hadn’t thought about grenades = stick. But you’re right. Same thing. (For the record, I thought your stick analogy was terrific.)

    “When I read someone’s thoughts, I picture their face. I have images of everyone in my mind that becomes clearer with each comment and I have imagined you smiling at the keyboard.”

    Good. Because I am never angry when I post. Not even close. I try to organize and convey my thoughts in as linear and logical a fashion as possible. That can come across as emotionless. But it’s not. I smile often, and laugh often.

    I am very methodical (and too long-winded as Maru pointed out) when I write. I am much more conversational in person — although my wife accuses me of talking too much to strangers, like clerks and whatnot. I’m always asking them about their shift, how their day is going, when they get to go home, etc.

    Anyway, thank you, brother. I appreciate your understanding and patience.

    Bill

  118. phpatato says:

    Bill and Artie…you both rock in my world!!! People!!!! Now THAT’S the way it should be here!! Thank you to both of you! Yeehaw. Let the long weekend begin!!!

    Have a good one everyone.

  119. poohpity says:

    Mart’s heart? What about Jesus? Mart said, “Jesus was intensively against anything that would turn our hearts away from Him”. If we are causing ruin to others by “evil passions”, “self deceptive anger” and “war mongering” one is certainly not focused on Jesus. Oh my for those who believe God is wrathful I would say then we all would be zapped but He seems to be slow to anger and rich in mercy and grace. I for one am so very grateful. I am also glad Mart has not pulled the plug.

  120. poohpity says:

    I guess I see hypocrisy, not in the lives of others but one of the things I struggle with among many others. Asking the Lord about the things He sees in me that brings sorrow to His heart hopefully I will cut others a break.

  121. foreverblessed says:

    It was a week ago when I last participated in this discussion.
    In the evening our choir was rehearsing Verdi’s music of the Aida opera, 2nd Act finale
    this peace was new to me, and as the words were sung, it struck me how great the similarities with our discussion here:
    The army of the Egyptian king has wun victory over the Ethiopian invaders, and they are brought in the temple, then Aida (the ehtipan slave at the court of Farao) recognises her dad, who is King of Ehtiopa! Here the people are pleading for mercy for the soldiers taken captive. But the priests are getting angry: it is the law of the gods, that the soldiers taken captive must be sacrificed to the gods, otherwise the wrath of the gods would be on the egyptians!
    So everybody sing together at the same time, the people and slaves plead for mercy, and the priests cry out for wrath!
    We are the priests of God, of Jesus Christ, and we know that all the wrath of God is satisfied in Jesus, that whoever excepts Jesus will come into his Grace!
    Peace with God and man, reconciliation!

  122. foreverblessed says:

    typos: this piece (not peace)was new to me
    Ethiopian slave and Ethiopia

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