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Secret Disciples

DSC01751At the time of Jesus’ burial, two men are ready to take a risk. Both appear to be members of the Sanhedrin, a ruling body of Israel. One is Joseph who had been a secret disciple of Jesus for fear of other Jewish leaders (Luke 23:50-51) (John 19:38). He is the one who went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus, apparently so that he could place the body in the grave he had prepared for himself (Matt 27:57-60).

The other was also a member of the Sanhedrin. While Joseph got the body, and provided the tomb, the second brought  about 75 pounds of myrrh and aloes to help Joseph prepare Jesus’ body for burial.

Together the two wrapped the body of Jesus (John 19:40). I wonder what they might have been saying to one another. Were their faces wet? Were they beating themselves up for not speaking more courageously in behalf of Jesus when he was alive?

We have no record of a possible meeting between Joseph and Jesus. But Nicodemus had come to Jesus under the cover of darkness for that, now famous, conversation. He had heard the teacher speak not only about the necessity of a second (spiritual) birth, but also those amazing words about needing to be lifted up, as Moses had lifted up the bronze snake in the wilderness so that those who were bitten and dying could live (John 3:14).

Now, as these two rulers of the Jews helped one another wrap Jesus’ body what were they saying, and thinking? Did they talk not only about the bronze snake–and that all the people had to do was look at it and live? Had Nicodemus really also heard Jesus say  “For God so loved the world that…” (John 3:16).

As I think back over my life, I have so many questions about times when I did or didn’t seem to have the courage to start a conversation about the one who died in our place. Sometimes I spoke when I wish now I had asked questions–and been a better listener. Sometimes I was silent while longing for the courage and wisdom to know what to say. Sometimes, it all seemed to come together, as if God himself was providing both the occasion and the words. But over all, I’m wondering how much my thoughts echo the regrets–and eventual overwhelming gratefulness of  those two men who would soon discover that–because of such personal failures, and far more… Jesus had died for them…


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55 Responses to “Secret Disciples”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Amen Mart, if only we could *learn* to control our tongues many embarrassing encounters could have been avoided as well as many opportunities could have blossomed all for the glory of God and the uplifting of His Son Jesus of Nazareth.

    As we now go about our lives spewing out our thoughts and our views concerning our faith I also wonder how many people secretly are hearing what we say and are either encouraged or harmed by the things we do and don’t say.

    Which is why I suppose the Psalmist wrote in Psalms 141:3 “Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips.” In a sometimes vain attempt to aid our actions.

    Steve

  2. swwagner says:

    This make me think of all the times I have led a double life. It makes me sick to remember all the things I did or said that turned others away from Jesus. Peter is very much like me…boisterous, loud, and promising things before thinking. I’ll have to think about this for awhile.

  3. Bill says:

    Good topic, Mart.

    Two quick comments:

    1. Asking questions is my favorite thing in the world to do. It may be the natural journalist in me. Or maybe I’ve always been too shy to talk about myself. But I’ve found that asking questions is the very quickest way to get someone else to open up and feel at ease. No one who claims to be a spiritual leader (pastor, counselor, priest – whatever) can do even an adequate job without being a very, very good question asker and listener.

    2. Regrets are pointless. They’re the anchors that prevent the ship from sailing. The past is gone. The future doesn’t exist. All we have is right here, right now, this present moment. If I dwell on should haves and could haves and all the things I did wrong, I’m quite sure I’d lapsed into a catatonic state. I don’t believe regrets are skillful.

    Life is for living, not for worrying, doubting, and “checking,” which is a word borrowed from another spiritual tradition. Human beings “check” themselves all the time, often to the point of mental illness.

    The pertinent point about your post is that regardless of what could have or should have done, Jesus welcomes us equally — with open arms and a heart full of love.

    Have a great day, all!

    Bill

  4. SFDBWV says:

    The people Mart has reminded us of here in Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus remind me of two others who *sensed* who Jesus was, they being Simeon and Anna (Luke 2:25-38).

    Having said that I am reminded also of a story in 1 Kings 19:18 whereby God tells Elijah there are 7,000 who have not entered into Baal worship, Elijah thinking he was alone against the evil in the land.

    We sometimes forget that the Jew was raised up in the Word of God and many I am sure recognized Jesus as possibly being the Messiah from both the writings and prophesies of Scripture as well as the urging of the Holy Spirit.

    The purpose of the raising of Lazarus from the tomb was to show those watching that Jesus had the authority to raise the dead. Many *important* men witnessed this event, though some came away trying to figure a way to kill both Lazarus and Jesus some also came away impressed.

    The key to those who believed that Jesus *may* be the Messiah to fully *knowing* He was, is in the resurrection.

    Joseph and Nicodemus both had to consider what the Scriptures said as they buried Jesus in anxious anticipation of either seeing Christ rise or not.

    The Church began there in Israel with nearly all the first followers being Jews, I have to believe just as in the story in 1Kings God had already began to open the eyes and hearts of many including the scholarly as well as the *normal* people and on the morning of the resurrection their anxious anticipation was realized.

    Joseph and Nicodemus prepared Jesus for burial, but hoped for something else.
    It causes me to wonder what do we anticipate as we learn from Scripture what to expect *next* now that we see through opened eyes with the aid of the Holy Spirit His Word and our *hope*.

    What is it we prepare for as we hope for something else?

    Steve

  5. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart —

    Don’t we all have regrets for something we have said — or failed to say! I also wonder about Joseph and Nicodemus’ feelings. The story is poignant. I observe that I am inclined to remember what I said or failed to say. It is more important to remember what the other person in the conversation has said, as I assess my “effectiveness” as an agent of Jesus’ kingdom. Is it possible that understanding how to pray for another is more important than supplying “just the right word?”

    I pray you will be consoled keeping in mind what Jesus has accomplished, Mart. He may have curbed, in the power and grace of the Holy Spirit, a remark you or I would cringe to recall — perhaps avoiding the hurt we might have otherwise inflicted. Perhaps also a moment of silence on your or my part has permitted the Lord to plant a seed of goodness we were unable to sow.

    Does our performance, despite good intentions, ever measure up to the immense gift we have all been given? The Lord knows your heart!

    Maru

  6. foreverblessed says:

    Maru ” Is it possible that understanding how to pray for another is more important than supplying “just the right word?” thanks for that!

    Mart, my guess is that at that moment the grieve of losing Jesus was the main thing. They all must have been terrified! As all that they had hoped for was gone! I believe that all Jesus’ followers were anticipating Jesus starting His Kingdom in their time. I believe they were devastated!
    We now know that Jesus came to die for our sins, these disciples, hidden or open, were busy in another realm. The Kingdom which would come visibly while Jesus was with them on earth, wasn’t that why Jesus came: to testore the Kingdom of God?
    I believe we hardly know how devastated they were! And how humble thy were in staying together, and praying together.
    The whole scheme of things were hung on a cross, to be buried in the ground! All gone!
    The realisation that forgiveness of shortcomings, sins, through that same cross, wHich torpeded their dreams, must have come later, and even very slowly.
    Think of how unbelieving the disciples were when they were told that Jesus was risen. They did not believe it, Peter didn’t, John didn’t. While we can read in our bibles, safely in our comfortables homes, that Jesus had told them several times beforehand that he would hung on a stake, they did not get that message, it just did not seem to sink in.
    (I also believe that we are in the same position nowadays, thinking Jesus will come, and we will be taken up before trouble starts, and all is well. Maybe we will have the same shocking experience as they had when they buried Jesus!)

  7. poohpity says:

    Mart, this is so weird but this was a confirmation of a conviction from the Lord I had this morning about yesterday morning. I guess I was being a secret disciple rather than a bold one too!!

    Yesterday on the way to my elders son’s church to watch him play drums which is about 30 miles away there was a man on the street who had a sign about 2 city blocks from the church which read “smile” then he drew a happy face on it. Rather than asking him if he would like to go to church with me I said your sign says smile but you do not have a smile. Good grief, duh. He probably had no reason to smile. So this morning when I woke up the Lord put it on my heart about 2 things one I could have taken him to church with me and I had $5 on me as well that I could have given him. I asked the Lord to forgive me then I opened up the blog and this topic was another little prod that I am really shirking in my acts of kindness and ran it home.

    I get so focused sometimes in the trip I lay aside the joy in the journey. I do not want to be a secret disciple, I used to be bold in those areas and I pray I have a chance each day to return to that kind of disciple and take my light from under the basket which is where it seems to have been lately.

  8. poohpity says:

    Ooh my then again on ODB. Lesson really learned today.

  9. goldengirl says:

    I agree about the regrets thing not being productive especially if you dwell on the regrets of the past to the point of immobilization; which I have done on many occasions. But regrets can also spur you on to avoid repeating them because you have Godly sorrow and want to repent and follow the Lord and be the example He was.

  10. foreverblessed says:

    In the former topic I have a few comments for Maru, Plumbape, Gary and Bellue.

  11. oneg2dblu says:

    Well I guess the “secret” is out, as we all disciple each other by sharing our experience. Our remebered failures, and our learning journey.
    I too have held my words but not my prayers when I was comfronted in my soul to speak, I blaked and prayed instead.
    So, I learned two things tripping over one stone, first I did hear within my being the right thing to do, and I chse also a path with leads to my doing something, rather than nothing.
    So, what could be the great regret is not a regret at all, but an avenue of learning to be what I can be, while not being what I’m not ready to be.
    I’m certainly not ready to go out and stand on a street corner with a sign, nor am I led in my spirit to do so.
    I’m not ready to say the future does not exist, because I await what God’s word says will happen in the future.
    So, to me it is as real as the present faith I have in the word, Christ will return for His bride like a theif in the night, and for that future event, I believe and trust there is a futre awaiting us all.
    Be Blessed, Gary

  12. oneg2dblu says:

    Now I am awaiting foreverblessed words as well. I trust it to be a future event.

  13. Artle says:

    I once tried to help a person thru a life endangering episode. Faith is always a good thing to have and to share and I shared mine to the point the person looked at me and asked if I was Jesus. Later that night or the next night I was walking the streets where I did not want to be trying to find this person and I remember saying, “Okay, God, what part of the plan is this?” Things had gotten well beyond the control I thought I had. The person survived and I survived, but I was not the person I was before. Shortly after I felt as though I had been damaged emotionally and mentally, but looking back, I think it was more of a refining by fire that striped away cares and concerns that simply were not important.

    Reading this post and comments brought the ordeal back to me. Thinking about it enough to put it into words, I realize the person I was helping wasn’t the only one God was working on those few days.

    The person you think you need to help may not be the one God is working on. He is always at work. I imagine He was working on Joseph and Nicodemus before during and after the story before us.

  14. belleu says:

    Forever blessed, I left a comment for you on the last post.

    After I read this teaching, I thought about what I might regret about not saying something to someone. Yes, I do have a few regrets. I can only pray God will give me the right words at the right time to people I know or even just meet once. Certainly, things people have said to me have either helped or hurt me in my Christian walk. I hope to always be a help to others.

  15. SFDBWV says:

    Have you ever said something and then wondered “where did that come from?” Or have you ever did something and not really know why you were doing it, only to discover later its purpose?

    Like Peter many of us just run head first into the wind never taking the time to know why, as when Jesus ask “who do people say I am?” Peter said “you are the Christ” and Jesus said he was blessed because it was not so much Peter’s figuring it out, but rather the Holy Spirit working through him.

    When Jesus told the disciples to go to a certain place and tell the owner of a donkey that the Master has need of it; who do you suppose this person was and why would he just entrust his property to these men? Jesus knew exactly where to send them and had no doubt the man would obey.

    We see only a small sliver of events in the life of Jesus and we see only a small sliver of God acting in and around us; sometimes we don’t see it at all until the time comes for us to.

    Joseph and Nicodemus were under an unction/anointing from God even if they did or didn’t realize it they were obeying God’s will right down to the letter.

    I believe many times we do the same, never realizing it is exactly what God desires from us at this or that moment. If we ever reflect on any of it we may think we should have done things differently, but perhaps it is exactly what God needed for us to do at the time.

    So even in reflection sometimes we have to trust it to God and leave it there.

    The words of wisdom tell us where the tree falls it lays, the Word also tells us that the soul of every living thing is in the hand of God. Was not the tree also in the hands of God?

    Steve

  16. s2inkzoo says:

    As I thought about the point about them being “secret” disciples, and that they may failed to say, it made me think of back to something I learned in reading about the “seven deadly sins”. I was surprised to find that Sloth included the idea that we failed to do the good that we were supposed to do. So, it was not just “laziness”, but laxness in following God in what he would have us do. In fact just last night after reviewing the comments here, I stumbled across I Samuel 12:23 – “As for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by failing to pray for you”. So, it can be a sin to not pray when we should for others. Maru mentioned the importance of not just speaking to, but praying for people.

    Then in reading Bill’s comment on not living with regrets, this made me go to the idea that we don’t want to live as if we always need to do more. Whether it is in not saying the wrong things, or not doing things we shouldn’t, or if it is in failing to alway say the “right” thing, or do more for God. So, this seems to lead to the idea of living “all out” for God. As Oswald Chambers phases it, having our lives be “crushed grapes and spilled out wine”. Or as Francis Chan put it, having a “Crazy Love” for God, where we are willing to do anything, not out of obligation, but out of love for the Lord. Like when we date someone we really love, we spend our whole time pursuing them, trying to please them, and looking for ways to spend more time with them. Or as Kyle Idleman put it, being follower, not a fan. Not just sitting on the sidelines and cheering, but really committing ourselves to following Christ, no matter what the cost. This kind of commitment forces us out of being “secret followers”. But it is not based on guilt or rules to live by, but by the fact that drops of time that make up our lives are more important spent pursuing our love of God and Christ.

  17. Artle says:

    Regrets seem to stem from our interactions with other people and with God. Is not regret a form of conviction, if not the same thing? The Holy Spirit saying, “You know, Artle, you did not do that as well as you could have”.

    On another line, the two secret disciples may have not had any regret because they had done all they could. What more evidence could we have that their hearts were right with God in that they were chosen for the task at hand.

  18. BruceC says:

    Reading this topic what struck me as odd is that those closet to Jesus were not the ones to provide his burial place or take care of the body. They were scattered and likely cowering in fear. But here we see Nicodemus and Joseph taking a huge risk in doing so as they were members of the group that had voted to have our Lord put to death. So who were the real “secret disciples”?
    Are we not sometimes “put on the spot” and keep our mouths shut about our Lord for what ever the reason may be? A sin of omission for not doing what is right? Almost like Peter’s denial?
    Then we read later;
    Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

    Wow! Even though we are not given names it appears that many in secret have come out! There is a good chance that Joseph and Nicodemus were among them though we are not specifically told so. And these from the group that showed scorn for our Lord and His work! Amazing grace!!!

    And we too; if we show fear, can and will be strengthened by Him! Even though we fail Him often He is there to forgive and give us power to move forward. To only look back as an object lesson and not as something to drag us down in defeat.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  19. poohpity says:

    Amen Bruce! I was also thinking about the disciples who were with Jesus and the very few that remained but Jesus had said that they would scatter. Jesus knows what we are going to do before we do it but Jesus restores rather than condemns. He knows us better than we know ourselves and everyday as we wake up we join in His classroom of learning about an unconditional love that is into conforming us into His likeness. Process not perfection.

  20. BruceC says:

    An Old Testament Scripture that reminds us to look forward:

    Lam 3:21 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
    Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD’S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
    Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

    God Bless All!

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  21. poohpity says:

    Psalm 32:8 NIV

  22. phpatato says:

    I was thinking perhaps Joseph and Nicodemus were secret disciples because if they were open, they would not have been there at the time they were needed. Perhaps they seemed to be secret but weren’t really. It being a matter of being in the right place at the right time to be used by God at that moment in time. Perhaps the Holy Spirit “closed” their mouths so that they would be able to be used..meaning that if they were discovered to be followers of Christ before that time, they may have lost what they had (wealth for the grave and for the spices etc), the access they had to ask for Christ’s body to be buried.

    Whatever the reason for being secret, they stepped up to the plate when the time came and were bold enough to bury my Lord and they did it with loving care at great expense. I am thankful they didn’t remain secret when the time came!

    Hugs to everyone

    Pat

  23. poohpity says:

    But it seems they still did not believe all that Jesus taught them. They went to all that expense it seems out of love but they still were not getting it in the sense that on the third day He would rise from the grave. No real need for the spices or grave cloth but because of their love for the man of Jesus they went out on limb and pushed the repercussions they may have suffered afterward as they acknowledged that they even knew Him.

    If we only ever shared with people what Jesus did for us and for them then the message may not be so hard to share. I think we often times bumble through sharing the gospel because we may not be grounded enough in what we believe. I know it became easier for me once I had actually did it and realized it was just sharing what Jesus did in my life no frills, no fancy words, no fanfare just the facts ma’am, lol. Just opening up my heart and telling others how time spent with the Savior has changed my life makes it easier especially if we do not get into any theological debates.

  24. oneg2dblu says:

    I agree pooh…Telling our life story, is our only way to keep it real, both for ourselves and for others.
    Either you experienced something when Christ became real to you and that changed your life story, or you didn’t and you are still the same old you, having no real testimony for Christ, to either live out, or to reveal.
    Theological debates are another whole story in themselves, they are to me, how we try to support our religious sense of the things found in us, or how we are grounded in the Jesus Book as best as we are taught to understand them, and how those understandings have affected us.
    Certainly others will debate with us, sometimes adamantly, if their understanding and teaching is not the same, and it does not affect them in the same way.

    To me, people who are ungrounded either believe in anything, or nothing at all.

    The ungrounded are more like bending reeds or sinking sand, if you will. Taught by the world to be worldly, having an anything goes, your okay, just do it, it is not your fault type of mentality, it is just the way you are.

    No need to change, just be who you are and that will be good enough to get you to heaven if you believe there is a heaven, and if not, then not.
    Foot loose and fancy free is all one needs to be, just take care of number one. Serve yourself first, and always stay on your game.

    Not exactly a dying to self every day as carrying one’s cross.

  25. oneg2dblu says:

    I hope that was not too harsh, I was just trying to be real.
    Those who do not see their sin, may not see that they need a Savior.
    Gary

  26. poohpity says:

    What?!???!!?

  27. Artle says:

    Referencing poohs’s What?!???!!?, I think a better question is, Why?

    If my asking why doesn’t make sense, read 2 Timothy 2:24. If it still doesn’t make sense, read 2 Timothy 2:14-26. In the meantime I’ll pray.

  28. SFDBWV says:

    In a place where none of us profess to have finite answers to the questions raised (With the exception of Jesus’ place as Lord), the best any of us can do is offer up the thoughts we have at the time we write, which may change over time depending on the will of God.

    I think all of us have at some time or another been secret disciples in that at some area or point in time we quietly watched as others exemplified or witnessed Christ and we remained silent observers.

    I can reflect on a few, but that could sound like a regret when in fact it was just that, an observation with quiet interest.

    What about those of us who are not affiliated with any church, we believe, pray and go about doing good where and when we can, but leave the duties of attending and working in the group at a church to someone else.

    Privately or within the conversations with others we profess our faith, don’t actually belong to any group of followers.

    This is sort of how it seemed to be for Joseph and Nicodemus, though not actually a *member* they were yet followers in principal and heart, and when the time came for action they stepped up.

    I think maybe there are a lot more secret disciples among us then we realize, maybe we ourselves.

    Steve

  29. remarutho says:

    Morning All —

    Rains have begun in the Pacific Coastal Basin (north). Praying for a good, soaking rain to move south over the Yosemite Rim fire. Please agree with me and millions of others in prayer.

    The thing about the scene of Joseph and Nicodemus preparing Jesus’ corpse is: it is not tragic — not from our perspective on this side of the cross! In three days they will be facing a new cross-roads in their faith journey. Will the resurrection loosen their tongues and open their hearts to serve Messiah?

    Mart, you have described the varieties of your own boldness in witnessing the good news of Jesus’ gift to us. Surely Joseph and Nicodemus faced just the same times of vocal or silent discipleship after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus. What is the tipping point of realizing that changing an established institution (Sanhedrin, Church, Mission Organization) is hard work — from the inside or from the outside?

    I believe they did something. They did not decide that the whole Jesus phenomenon was “just a blip” in history. Surely their love for God the Son spurred them on to ministry and mission.

    Maru

  30. poohpity says:

    I worked at a medical detox unit for those who were either homeless or had no insurance but although the company wanted the patients to work the 12 steps which the first 2 involved recognizing they had a problem then allowing God to heal them but I could not speak of my faith. Some days when I was giving the educational lectures I felt like I would burst from holding back what Jesus could do in their lives. The permission I had however was if they asked me how I got sober I could tell them but because that did not include AA/NA after a while some of my superiors would push back on that and it started being a problem. I can not tell you how many times I was in the bathroom crying and praying cause at the time I had not developed thick enough skin yet to face persecution. I wanted to be liked by everyone so the rejection really hurt.

    It was easy sharing in front of churches because they knew God but not so easy in front of unbelievers. I do really good vocally but to put the passion I have for the Lord to paper I am not very good at that. I had a friend who I used to tell him what I wanted to say and he would write it for me with all the passion I felt. I still really have a problem conveying my heart in the written word that is why I have enjoyed reading what Mart writes because He has the ability to put it to paper. That is a gift that I envy.

  31. Artle says:

    pooh, I have to study sometimes on your message, but your passion for the Message is always clear. For what its worth, I have to study on Mart’s message sometimes too; of course, Mart has a way of putting enough thinking for a book in three paragraphs. :-) Gifts from God no doubt.

  32. poohpity says:

    Mart does give us much to think about and through that thinking has often times opened up different levels to a better understanding while getting us to look within and taking God out of the box that most have placed Him in all tied up neat and tidy.

  33. poohpity says:

    I had never considered that Nicodemus was the one who helped Joseph prepare Jesus’ body for burial. I had always thought it was John, Mary and Mary mother of Jesus.

    Mart’s blog has caused many to open up their Bible more than they ever did before. That is what is so wonderful about learning together even with disagreements.

  34. poohpity says:

    In Luke it says that Joseph did not consent to what the Council had deiced to do to Jesus so does that mean he was not really a secret disciple but an open one? Luke 23:51 NIV

  35. remarutho says:

    It seems to me Joseph was a just man from the get-go, Pooh. The whole business was a hurry-up, late night travesty of justice. The “witnesses” and the testimony against Jesus were fake. Perhaps Joseph, like Nicodemus, was one of the many who believed in Jesus. (John 8:31, 32) Maru

  36. SFDBWV says:

    Rather than thinking of “Secret Disciples” this morning I am leaning more toward *prayer warriors* that silent army of believers who do battle in the spirit for so many causes on behalf of those who need it and in obedience to God.

    Secretly they may go into their private places or openly they may stand in a congregation, but together they lift up their requests to God.

    Today as our President considers military action again against a foreign Government we need to come together as a nation and pray for guidance for our national leaders. Though it all seems like a snare dragging every nation into the Mid East for that day of Armageddon; God’s will, but we should all be praying for the Peace of Jerusalem.

    Steve

  37. Artle says:

    Pondering Mart’s last paragraph, I think we struggle with what to do and when to do it when we think “I (with a capital ME) need to do (or say) something”. When our thoughts are on God, we are more likely to know what to say or do and when to say or do it, because it is He not I, that knows these things. He may say, “Don’t worry Artle, I’ve got this one.”

    It is not necessarily a failure on our part if we did not say or do, if our heart was yearning to help.

    Working for the Kingdom is 100% on the job training for the heart that lasts a lifetime. The retirement plan is Awesome!

  38. Bill says:

    Excellent advice, Steve. I’ve seen articles from more than one source that say this could be the start of World War III…and that Israel’s time is limited because of it.

    What people don’t understand is how a President can proceed in matters of war without approval from Congress, a declaration of war.

    We are involved in too many wars in the Middle East. We cannot afford the loss of life, nor the loss of revenue. Our nation is broke — spiritually, morally, and economically.

    So, yes, prayers. Lots of them. We are in a bad way.

  39. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, as Bill said to you, “YES”….. to prayers for our world leaders. Things are not looking good at all.

    Artle…I find your messages very deep, warm, and enlightening. Thank you…..also…WELCOME!

  40. poohpity says:

    Yes, it does seem to be on the job training. Mistakes/personal failures are the blessings we learn from. If we never made any it may be the cause to puff us up. We also will have repeat mistakes but God seems to encourage us after He picks us up and brushes us off and sets our feet on the path again.

  41. poohpity says:

    It seems we did not get involved in the 400,000 lost lives in Darfur or the first 98,000 in Syria but one country gives us access to oil the other does not. One crossed a political red line not by the deaths of all those souls but if they used chemical weapons. These are some pretty tough decisions and when left to the last minute become worse and more expensive. I sure would not like to be the one making those calls and yes prayers are really needed for God’s wisdom if they even really care about God in all this or is the lack of God what has caused this to get this bad.

  42. BruceC says:

    Amen poohpity. Nor is there much talk about the slaughter of Christians in Nigeria either. I do not see a difference in such killing whether it be by guns or chemical weapons. Things are getting tense and we need to pray fervently for the Gospel to reach as many as possible and for guidance for all involved.
    But when one looks at prophecy things will have to get tense in order for one leader (anti-Christ) to deceive many and come up with a “short-lived” peace plan.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  43. oneg2dblu says:

    Good thoughts all… not wanting to separate us into any localized thinking, or cause us to be polictical enemies either, but am addressing a more worldwide thought process in saying, “What if a country were really Under God in all their decission making, wouldn’t they then act with God in mind first, and what would that look like?
    Wouldn’t their leaders take that country to its knees in prayer?
    As a nation’s peoples see its leaders act, so they are led.
    Why can’t we as a nation show the rest of the world exactly who our true leader really is?
    Or, have we already shown our hand?
    Makes you wonder who’s cards are we really playing with?
    “If me people who are called by my name, would turn from their wicked ways and humble themselves and pray, then I would hear from Heaven and heal their land.”
    From Bill’s “right on” comments, we can well see that America today is a sick and suffering nation, and through its own bad choices or lack of good people standing up against a rising evil, we can clearly see a lack of any God first conditions being met in the leadership of this nation.
    I believe, God hates debt, because debt owns its debtors.
    Aren’t we are really thinking we are being led by “love” when we want to just provide so many things for others but bankrupt ourselves first, and there by never really help anyone?
    Unless this unpresidented rising debt, which certainly can not continue forever, or that period of time that forever represents, continues to disguise itself as only “loving and helping” those who are in need. Then, the America of the golden rule/fool who now thinks, lets keep up the promise of hand outs for all, finding they soon will be on its knees to China and others instead.
    Sorry for that rant, it seems that all we know now is that Love Wins,but do we know how love also must have some restraint, and how that restraint should look and act?
    God knows the answer, but are we really asking God how to act, or how to love, His Way?
    Or, or we really doing it all man’s way, which seems right, but in the end?
    Just some thoughts…
    Gary

  44. poohpity says:

    Even doing nothing for the one American Pastor Saeed that Iran is holding captive for his beliefs seems to be a travesty. One would think that even that could be addressed by even a call from our President to theirs. Oh my standing for the rights of the weak seems to be an area that we all may be seen as secret disciples rather than bold witnesses. The response from the president to my letter said thank you for sharing your opinion with me but we all have opinions. Really?? I thought it to be concern and a call for action.

  45. BruceC says:

    The majority of this nation does not want to have God tel them what is right and wrong; or what to do.
    Far too many people thinking far too highly of themselves. Pride leads to greed of money, power, and fame…and from there it is all downhill.
    A day will come when this land will learn humility before almighty God. What we see going on hurts all of us here.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  46. poohpity says:

    Amen Bruce but does it not give you comfort that God even though they do not seek Him still has all things in His control and gave us a peek at the things to come so we would not be so surprised or scared.

  47. phpatato says:

    Gary, I have a rant on the Syria situation as well. BUT, wheels are in motion that I personally believe cannot be stopped. And sadly that means rising debt, rising oil and gas prices and hard economic times. I believe that events have started to fall into place to line up with prophecy. The road is under construction (although more and more people are believing it is almost completely paved and finished), for the rise of the anti-Christ and Armageddon. Although we know how bleak this world will become, we must always hope that Love will Win this time with a peaceful solution to its end. What we can do as Christ’s disciples, is to obey His commandment in John 13:34 and love enough to pray for all the leaders of every nation involved, especially those in the Middle East. Otherwise, all we will have left to do with our time is rant.

    Pat

  48. oneg2dblu says:

    Well put by all… the wheels are in motion, God is in control, and we still can pray for all leaders in all countries, that love may rule over them. Gary

  49. oneg2dblu says:

    And pray for us to love them as well!

  50. lovely says:

    Amen to all . Reading through i think the war has already began at the Garden of Eden. When Adam took that fruit The world has already been given to the evil one
    1 John 5:19 .Therefore there will continue to be evilness as long as we’re in the world.There are turmoil everywhere in the world no matter where you are. That’s why we as sons & daughters of God are called to rise up & pray. 1 Timothy 2:1-2. To me whatever is happening in the physical has already been decided in the spiritual(In Job a decision has been made in heaven before it was to be made happen on earth)Jeremiah 1:5 the famous vs that God knew us before we were formed and then goes on to say that we’re called to be prophet to the nation. Its the Lord who will still roaring seas Psalm 65:7 who stilled the roaring of the seas,the roaring of their waves,and the turmoil of the nations.Who knows He chose to do it through us!Keep on praying

  51. SFDBWV says:

    When Jesus said for us to turn the other cheek I have always took that to mean if insulted to just take the insult and not return insult for insult.

    I have never read where Jesus tells us not to protect ourselves from harm inflicted on us from another, in fact He instructed His Disciples to take a sword with them for protection at the outset of their Gospel journey.

    In spite of all the political ramblings and rhetoric I believe that any country that professes itself to be Christian and as a people follow the precepts of Christ have a much better chance at surviving and prospering than any other.

    A country that is not a Christian nation and does not follow the precepts of Christ are not punished for it at this time, but rather suffer because of it here, now and in the future. In fact they will someday disappear from the earth altogether.

    At the end of WWI Woodrow Wilson attempted to create a world alliance called the “League of Nations”; its intent was to threaten the wayward nations of the world with overwhelming odds if they were to try and start war with their neighbors.

    It failed miserably; we endured WWII with 10’s of millions of casualties on a scale the world had never seen before.

    From the failed ashes of “The League of Nations” the “United Nations” has dominated the world political scene and not once have they prevented any war anywhere or had any effect on any wayward country or its leaders….not once.

    If we go to war against any threat to our national safety and the wellbeing of our life and our freedoms the only way possibly to win is to totally defeat, humiliate and crush the resolve of our enemy.

    To just *punish* them for their wayward behavior only deepens their resolve to be an enemy. We win nothing and strengthen our enemies.

    Two big powers in the world that keep the little braggart countries empowered are China and Russia.

    In a world of nuclear warfare the concept of global war with enemies poised to launch nuclear weapons at each other has been the deterrent that has kept us from such a global catastrophe.

    It may be that God is allowing things to move toward that end for His purposes, it may also be that we are witness to prophesies Jesus gave in picturing the world before He returns.

    This does not make me feel better about the events that seem to have no end in the great sink hole the turmoil in the Middle East is and has always been.

    People who want to set at home and watch warfare played out on CNN as they are safe and comfortable need only to live in a war zone and be part of it to realize this is nothing they want to experience for themselves or those they love, ever.

    Jesus did not come into the world to change it by military force, rather to save it from such.

    Pray for peace in the hearts of men.

    Steve

  52. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    Mart, you wrote:
    “He had heard the teacher speak not only about the necessity of a second (spiritual) birth, but also those amazing words about needing to be lifted up, as Moses had lifted up the bronze snake in the wilderness so that those who were bitten and dying could live (John 3:14).”

    So, Nicodemus had been given two (actually three) ways to advance the kingdom of God:

    Be born again (welcome the Holy Spirit) (John 3:8)
    Lift up the sign/banner of Messiah (John 3:14, 15)
    Carry forth to all the love of God (John 3:16)

    Jesus forgives us when we have failed to be effective in these. He also calls us to continue to witness (Acts 1:8) and make disciples (Matt 28:19, 20) – even in the seeming chaos of this world. It is simple enough to understand, but not always easy to accomplish. Perhaps we do not see all that is taking place when angels and other ministers of God’s grace are at work in our midst…

    Yours,
    Maru

  53. poohpity says:

    I think it is just very telling about the character of a person who looks back over their life and reflects on the times they may have remained quiet rather speaking up for the Lord, or not listened or asked questions to get to know someone better which in turn opens the door for dialogue about the Lord or even being prepared if asked what one would say about where their hope is. To me it signifies a heart that reveres the Lord and is thinking about Him. 2 Tim 4:2 NIV; 1 Peter 3:15 NIV

    It not only says we are preparing but how it is done is just as important not by putting anyone down but in a gentle, humble manner elevating Christ and not the one speaking. If we keep in mind that we are looking up then we will not look down on others. It is also important to me of how I receive what others say because even in snipes there is always something to learn.

    Mart you wrote, “Sometimes, it all seemed to come together, as if God himself was providing both the occasion and the words.” I wonder if not being aware of those times by carefully listening may not be the best. I think often times one may force it by their own wills and then it just becomes a real mess and turns folks away rather than to.

  54. poohpity says:

    Oh by the way Maru, thank you for bringing this discussion back on topic. :-)

  55. poohpity says:

    Going off topic. Our brothers/sisters in Syria have sent out a prayer request that we pray for President Obama nor NATO to bomb there. They said it would cause more harm down the road as in sharia and the Muslim Brotherhood. So please pray for no bombing in Syria for them as per their request.

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