Text Size: Zoom In

Google Listens

277064154_b9ab8061c7

Photo by: pixiduc

The University of Chicago’s Wisdom Research website is presently featuring a news report about an 87 year old Zen Master who has been asked by Google execs to help  bring a sense of humanity back into their corporate work culture.

According to an article in The Guardian, doors are opening for this elderly Buddhist monk even though he is being counter-cultural in his appeal for mindfulness and meditation to return the peace and happiness that have been lost in the rush for economic profitability and material success. Regarded by business people as a breath of fresh air and a return to sanity, many are seriously weighing what he is saying about our need for compassion and sustainability to begin undoing the damage being done to ourselves and to our environment.

At a time when so many are trying to get religious controversy and polarities out of public life, the article reflects a growing awareness of what science and technology cannot give us. Through a call to spirituality that allows for personal choice and thoughtfulness, matters of the heart are being considered in places that have worshipped change, efficiencies, and profitability.

Upon hearing this, we might be inclined to be critical of the 87 year old Master, the religious dogma he represents, and suspicious of corporate execs who will do anything to keep their ships afloat.

What if we instead honored the wisdom of this elder with the admission that we all desperately need lives marked by mindfulness, meditation, compassion and thoughts of sustainability (i.e. thinking in terms of how we can use for the common good the limited resources entrusted to us rather than self-destructing in blind consumption).

What if more followers of Christ were known for the kind of thoughtfulness, compassion, courage and wisdom that come from him (James 3:15-17)?

Do we need to begin the conversation with our conviction that Jesus is the only ultimate source of wisdom in this life and the next, or start with the assumption that people will hate us for trying to bring Jesus into their lives? Could it be time for the  kind of wisdom that begins with where our world, neighbors, and co-workers are —rather than where we are?

Let’s talk about it…

P.S. I’ve removed some of the earlier questions and copy from the end of this post, since– without face to face conversations they could have been misleading.


Vote on whether you think this post is something you'll be thinking about:
Vote This Post DownVote This Post Up (+21 rating, 22 votes)
Loading...
140 Comments »

140 Responses to “Google Listens”

  1. foreverblessed says:

    Mart asked:”Do we need to begin the conversation with our conviction that Jesus is the only way to wisdom in this life and the next?” Well that is exactly what I have done this weekend, with my in-laws, we had a family reunion, and as soon as you talk about being a christian, people look at you and find you retarded, “who on earth believes that?”
    I was unsettled about it, as I was not beginning the conversation with Jesus, but it was at the end. No matter, whether you start at the beginning or at the end, the name Jesus is hard to swallow.
    I was mulling over this at night, until this thought came to mind: I want to follow Jesus, I gave my lie to Jesus, so He will make right everything that I did wrong, He will work it out in their hearts, and so I still pray for them intercessory prayer: God, you opened my heart for the need of a Savior, who is Jesus alone, You can work it out in their hearts too.

    With this comment I do not want to say that we can say whatever we want as Jesus will set it straight anyway, no, I am trying with all my heart to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, and I do not want to say wrong things. Next time I know, it is better to show love instead. No words, just the working of Jesus in my life, that makes me a humble and full of grace.

  2. foreverblessed says:

    Artle, I have a note for you in the last topic

  3. Bill says:

    Good Morning Mart and Friends,

    This is one of the most profound and important blogs you’ve ever written, Mart. I believe it has the power to change the world.

    Interestingly, this subject matter is the basis for a book I’ve been researching for awhile: interfaith dialogue and its potential to heal the world’s deep, deep divisions.

    The 87-year-old Zen master is Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese monk held in very high regard by people around the world. He is considered on par with the Dalai Lama in terms of his teachings on compassion and peace, mindfulness and love.

    At the outset, I’d like to address some of your comments in a paragraph near the bottom of your post:

    “Upon hearing this, we might be inclined to be critical of the 87 year old Master, the religious dogma he represents, and suspicious of corporate execs who will do anything to keep their ships afloat.”

    1. “The religious dogma he represents” is a statement that could just as easily be applied to you, Mart. All non-Christians say that about Christians. It is an us-and-them way of viewing the world that is exclusionary, an ideology that leads to divisions, distrust, and worse. If we are critical of Thich Nhat Hanh because he is a Buddhist monk, then we are shallow, narrow-minded people indeed…and others have a right to be critical about us and our “dogma.”

    2. “…suspicious of corporate execs who will do anything to keep their ships afloat.” Don’t forgot, you are a corporate excec. Your “ship” is RBC. You will do anything to keep your ship afloat because many people’s lives depend on it. Should we be suspicious of you and those who currently steer RBC into new waters?

    I’m not sure where these “suspicions” regarding corporate execs come from. But if their ships did not stay afloat all of us would starve to death because our economy would fail and we’d find ourselves trying to club squirrels for food. There is nothing inherently evil about a corporation, or those who run them. (Frankly, I’m usually more suspicious of people who tell me I should be suspicious of corporations and corporate execs.)

    Regarding the rest of your blog, here’s what I have to say:

    A. According to the linked article, “[Thich Nhat Hanh] plans to discuss with [corporate execs] how they can develop a deep understanding of the inter-connectedness and inter-dependence of all life and offer practical tools to better integrate mindfulness in their daily work, in the products they design, and in the vision they have for how technology can change the world. The event will end with the practice of walking meditation.”

    That is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. It is a very skillful way for people (not just corporate execs!) to live in this world. If we understand that we are all connected, that we depend on one another, and if we are fully aware of our actions and how they affect others, we will think we’ve stumbled into Eden, pre Fall. If Thich Nhat Hanh can help corporate execs discover compassion and mindfulness, they will treat their employees better, and they will create products and services that benefit the world.

    Two thumbs up!

    B. According to the linked article, “…Martin Luther King nominated [Thich Nhat Hanh] for the Nobel peace prize in 1967 for his work in seeking to end the Vietnam war.”

    That’s extremely important to note. Dr. King was a Baptist preacher; however, it’s a mistake to think of him as Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. Dr. King was deeply spiritual, heavily influenced by the teachings of Gandhi, Tolstoy, Thoreau, and, of course, Jesus. He was the real deal, a genuine man of God. On October 14, 1964, Dr. King received the Nobel Peace Prize for combating racial inequality through nonviolence.

    So, for Dr. King to see value in Thich Nhat Hanh should give all of us pause. If a man of God like Dr. King thought so highly of Thich Nhat Hanh, who are we to criticize the Vietnamese Zen master?

    I bow in reverence to Thich Nhat Hanh, as well as to Dr. King.

    C. Somewhere along the way, Christians have lost the ability to see beyond the back of the head of the person in the pew in front of them in church every Sunday. However, even as recently as the 1960s, people like Dr. King and Thomas Merton revered others from religious traditions different from their own.

    I recently visited the Thomas Merton Center at Bellarmine University in Louisville. There, I saw Merton’s personal library of books. It spanned such a wide range of subjects and authors that I’m sure my jaw dropped open when I beheld them.

    Merton, a Catholic monk, had a special affinity for Zen, and his library reflected that. Shelves of books about Zen, many written by D.T. Suzuki, could be seen among books about philosophy, psychology, and literature, such as novels by William Faulker. The depth and breadth of Merton’s studies was remarkable to say the least.

    By contrast, I believe Christians today are incredibly shallow. They know very little about other religious and, therefore, generally fear them. They don’t read literature. They don’t study philosophy. They don’t reach across the self-imposed chasm and take the hand of fellow sojourners, people who don’t walk the same spiritual path but who are, nonetheless, fellow human beings.

    When I study the lives of people like King, Merton, Gandhi, and Thich Nhat Hanh, I see giants among men. (Thanks to my studies of King, I’ve recently discovered Tolstoy, who was a deeply spiritual man committed to Jesus and nonviolence. I never would have known that had I not ventured out of my local Christian bookstore.)

    D. Finally, the reason why someone like Thich Nhat Hanh could be invited to speak to corporate execs and not a popular fundamentalist author/teacher (pick a name; doesn’t matter who) is because of the walls the former tears down…and the walls the latter builds up.

    If the goal is to train corporate execs to think broadly and compassionately, to not see the world in terms of us and them, in black and white, then Christianity fails as a tool for training. Because Christianity is profoundly divisive.

    For example, Mart’s question:

    “Do we need to begin the conversation with our conviction that Jesus is the only way to wisdom in this life and the next? Or do we need to start with the assumption that people will hate us for trying to bring Jesus into their lives?”

    As soon as we open our mouths and say “Jesus is the only way to…” we immediately divide people. We erect walls.

    This is the problem the world faces now — too many walls. Too many entrenched ideologies. Not enough flexibility of mind, compassion of heart.

    I honestly believe Mart’s blog today contains the seeds of wisdom that could grow to become the love Jesus encourages us to embody.

    Thank you for reading this.

    Have a great day!

    Love,

    Bill

  4. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    Have been looking at and wondering at the Apostle Paul’s words to the believers in Rome, “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand…” (Romans 5:1, 2)

    The article in The Guardian mentions some of the content of the Zen master’s convictions:
    “His teaching is based on transforming our suffering by letting go of the scars of the past as well as worries about the future, via meditation and mindful living.”

    It seems all but monastic Christians have kissed such mindful worship and living good-bye. Every heart yearns for the peaceable kingdom — seemingly few have set out to receive it with true intentionality.

    This quiet, contemplative way of life calls for attention to hearing the Lord’s voice daily. It seems to me the world yearns for this peace. I could be wrong — I’ve been wrong before in estimating the hunger of the world for the Prince of Peace.

    Yours,
    Maru

  5. SFDBWV says:

    This might be a good subject for Bill to wade in on as he is very informed in the content of other religions. I on the other hand only know enough to stay away.

    Last winter PBS had a series of programs about the major religions of the world, I recall a very polite and gracious woman explain that the teaching of Jesus were around for many years before His teaching and that His desire to bring peace and love to the world was in concert with the earlier eastern religions.

    If I look only to anthropology and archeology to answer the deeper questions of life and what all of this means I will come up with a mixture of philosophical examples and directives with which to choose from.

    So what separates the message Jesus brought from the message *eastern philosophy* or religion presented? Or to answer Mart’s question is wisdom found only in our Bible and only presented through Judaism and Christianity.

    First let me say that wisdom is found in all cultures in every peoples of the earth because all peoples of every culture are all made in the image of God and wisdom originates there in our creator.

    Solomon gave the ant credit for being wise and yet an ant has no religious affiliations as far as I know.

    Yet I always say there is a balance in creation so where is wisdom there is also foolishness, they both have to exist in order to make a distinction between them.

    The special message Jesus brought is far and above even wisdom, His message is about hope is a world of hopelessness.

    His message is about being able to know what God’s plans and desires are for all of us.

    His message is counter to all of the foolishness and designs of the imaginations of mankind.

    His message actually flies in the face of knowledge as He died and rose from the grave; what might wisdom say of such an idea?

    Wisdom says we can learn from all things around us, even false religions, and the evils of this world. Christian wisdom tells us we must place all of our hopes and dreams and futures on Jesus of Nazareth as we gleam wisdom for living from the table God has set before us even in the presence of our enemies.

    Steve

  6. remarutho says:

    I wonder whether we are called to “boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God.” (Romans 5:2) If we as a (Western) culture have come any distance at all — it is to put less value on boasting and pride. Even with the dropping value of proud boasting, I find we have not risen much in loving every child of God — especially those on the “other side” in competition.

    Maru

  7. foreverblessed says:

    Steve, I have a comment for you on the former topic.

    And to add, I did not say: Jesus is the only way. I said, I believe in Jesus. And there the wall came up. It was not me who set up the wall. It was the mentioning of the name of Jesus, so yes Mart, thanks.

  8. Bill says:

    @Maru, what you wrote…

    “It seems all but monastic Christians have kissed such mindful worship and living good-bye. Every heart yearns for the peaceable kingdom — seemingly few have set out to receive it with true intentionality.

    “This quiet, contemplative way of life calls for attention to hearing the Lord’s voice daily. It seems to me the world yearns for this peace. I could be wrong — I’ve been wrong before in estimating the hunger of the world for the Prince of Peace.”

    …was brilliant. You’ve nailed it. We can pooh-pooh Catholic contemplatives like Merton (or, today, Richard Rohr, Joan Chittister, Thomas Keating, etc.) all we want. But they discovered something I believe we’ve lost.

    @Steve, you are as articulate and profound as always:

    “First let me say that wisdom is found in all cultures in every peoples of the earth because all peoples of every culture are all made in the image of God and wisdom originates there in our creator….”

    If we glean anything from Thich Nhat Hanh it’s this: “Be mindful. Be compassionate. Be aware that we are all connected as fellow human beings.”

    It’s that aspect of shared humanity you mentioned, Steve, that I pick up on in Thich Nhat Hanh’s writings. If the old Zen master can teach me something about treating my neighbor better, I’m all for it.

  9. cherielyn says:

    I would love to comment on this subject, but my mind is too clouded by the pain medication I am on. COntinued prayers would be appreciated.

    Here’s an update (copied & pasted from a mass email I sent to my friends & family).

    Had my appt with the neurosurgeon yesterday. I am now being referred to radiation doctors.

    Dr said that tumors in the area where I have them are unusual. Dr said that where the tumors are (instead of 2 there are 3 or more) that it is risky & dangerous to remove it (the largest one) sugically & completely.

    Other options are:
    •Leave it alone & keep taking medication until I find the optimum dose that controls the pain.
    •Balloon decompression to isolate the nerve from being pressed on by the tumor.
    •Focused Beam Radiation – it’s a 1 time thing & radiates the spot to shrink the tumor that is causing the problem with the Trigeminal Nerve.

    So, until I see the radiation doctor, I really don’t know much more than I already did.

    Will keep you posted when I have more details.

    Cheryl

  10. foreverblessed says:

    Bill, you have a very good point, christians, especially evangelicals tend to stay in their own circles.
    Bus this is what I found (in the manner of the Preacher, ha ha) that even if you do that, and go all along, like Paul said,become all things to all man so as to win some 1 Cor 9:19-23 then still, there is something about the name Jesus that brings hostility.
    So I want to add, that whatever we do in relating with others, prayer for opening up their hearts is essential, otherwise whatever else is meaningless.
    (try Dostojevski, especially the Karamazov brothers, he has a very very good point about christianity, how it should be, and how it had become)

  11. foreverblessed says:

    Cheryl, I pray for you, God bless you, and be with you, and strengthen you, and make you lift above this physical realm, and mind the things of the Spirit, which is a real miracle that only God can in Jesus.
    1 Thess 5:23

  12. SFDBWV says:

    Cheryl dear sister this doesn’t sound good for you and I am certain you struggle as well as suffer. If only I could make both go away for you I would. For now I will remember you in my prayers and love you.

    Steve

  13. SFDBWV says:

    Bill I knew you would be the man for this topic, when I began my comments no one had yet commented and when I posted boom there everyone was.

    Maru whereas I start my days with quiet conversation with God even when I wake throughout the night, I too think it important to set aside *special* time to quiet yourself and be able to *listen* to God. The problem is always the same *life* gets in the way of that serene time I try and plan for and if in my spirit I begin to complain, God reminds me it is there in that din and noise of life where He is and where He wants me to be.

    Steve

  14. remarutho says:

    Cheryl —

    Prayers going up for your comfort and for wisdom and insight for your doctors. May your pain be removed. I ask this of the Lord not knowing what will be required. God be with you, Sister.

    Jesus told his disciples: “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.”

    Easy enough to cocoon in the prayer closet and be at peace. It seems to me the calling of Christ is to walk out, as Jesus did every day, into the midst of those who instantly hate anybody unlike themselves. Perhaps we are not called to check racial origin, religious preference, political party, number of piercings or correct spelling of tattoos.

    For me, if I have managed to make friends of my enemies, it has meant taking myself much less seriously. Also, I hope to see the need and vulnerability in folks very unlike me — as I remain vulnerable toward them. Not very good at this, but I hope for the Holy Spirit to cover my failures.

    I’m with you, Steve & Bruce, wisdom emerges from the indelible imprint of the Creator God in the human spirit.

    Maru

  15. BruceC says:

    Cheryl,

    I will keep you in my prayers. The Lord is with you as always and as always His love never fades.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  16. swwagner says:

    When I compare the way that Jesus lived here on earth to the way I live, it is disturbing to see how many “things” I have accumulated. All they do is complicate my life and give me something else to clean and try to keep in order. I give up!

    In the quest for a more sane life, it has been my mission for several years to get rid of things I no longer need. In the process I get to be an avenue for God to provide a need for someone else…it is so fun to give and give some more. You can’t take it with you.

    Calm living sure beats the frantic clawing we do to get to the top or ahead or to fit in with a certain crowd. This does not happen just in the corporate world…but also in church. We have so many groups, meetings, committees, and requirements that the real reason for the church disappears. We are more stressed out on Sunday sometimes with all we are supposed to do…it is almost a relief to go back to work on Monday. I quit that church rat race several years ago…now I actually have time to read my Bible and Pray.

  17. poohpity says:

    Mart, you asked, “Could it be time for the kind of wisdom that begins with where our world, neighbors, and co-workers are —rather than where we are?” Yes to reach out to anyone we have to know where they coming from, what their beliefs are and the condition of their heart. Forcing others to adhere to the way I have chosen to live my life will only hinder them from desiring to know the Lord. As an example Paul sat and listened to the Greeks at Athens before he told them of the unknown God they already had a pedestal for and then those who wanted to hear him out they remained, he then shared the Good News. They asked him to remain because they wanted to hear more and the others left. Paul was strong enough in His faith to listen to them and then to go on and write 1 Cor 9:19-23 NIV, that seemed to be the way King responded as well.

    If I were able to talk to Thay I would ask if aimlessness were the kind of philosophy he lived by but did he not have purpose when he wrote his books which have sold over 2 million copies?

    As he shared all the things he suffered while in VN and now teaches that those scars of the past and the worries of the future can be overcome with meditation and mindful living, what is it that he thinks about that makes it better? He also talks about getting rid of anger and fear and using meditation as a means to suffer less and I just wanted to know if that in fact has worked because he never really stated if it did or did not?

    He seemed to talk about success not equaling prosperity and prosperity not bringing happiness but all the times he has been asked to speak and give seminars how much did he make off of them aside from book sales? He also taught that what I do does not determine who I am and with that I totally agree because if we fail then we would be deemed a failure rather than a lesson. A person from thousands of years ago said that the person who desires to be rich falls into all kinds of temptations and can fall into ruin. But godliness with contentment is great gain.(1 Tim 6:6-10) Happiness only depends on the circumstance one finds their self in so although he does not equate happiness with materialism is he not pretty much set up financially to not worry about anything?

    I relish the thought of ecumenism through cooperation and understanding and yes to me that would be peace to the Nth degree but how does one get rid of self through meditation and mindful living? Do we not need something greater than self to bring a peace that is far above our understanding or should we entrust man to bring the philosophies of man to change man? I just do not know how that will work and if history is the great teacher in the heart of any man left to their own devises has always brought ruin and destruction no matter what guise it comes in.

  18. poohpity says:

    Cheryl, I know the doctors can not get to those tumors but God can, praying that He will. Praying for peace as you wait.

    I know that Thay teaches that Mother Earth can heal but I will depend on God.

    Love you Deb

  19. oneg2dblu says:

    Well said pooh. I wanted to post a much shorter version but you covered/uncovered much ground with your thoughtful comment.
    I would say only this as an addendum, as a Christ Follower we are commanded to test first, then we can judge for ourselves, that which we will follow.
    Man, or God.

    There are many worldly roads for a man to choose, some lead to self-fulfillment, happiness, peace, and pleasure, but according to the word of God, only the narrow one, is the one we should be on.
    If that makes Christians narrow-minded according to the world veiw, then it would also seem to follow God’s plan for Salvation. Gary

  20. Artle says:

    I am short on time today. Hope to have more time to read and digest the discussion later. My initial thought:

    History is littered with people who thought they knew all the answers. So, I must surmise we, as well, do not have all the answers. Mysteries remain and God is long suffering. There is nothing that says He may not offer another plan unaware to us. All is His to do as He pleases, is it not?? Open Mind, Open Heart, Yes??

  21. BruceC says:

    Sorry, but I am a leery of “eastern” religions.
    I wonder why they didn’t hire a Bible believing minister? Can’t he teach those same qualities?
    Of course the answer to that is that the “world” doesn’t want to hear that or from a minister.

    When my dog Ginger had to take a pill from the vet she would not take it as is; but hidden inside a piece of cheese and she would gulp it down. You can hide poison inside a chocolate chip cookie.
    Sorry, but I am not going there.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  22. BruceC says:

    “Google Listens”

    My question is, to who and to what?

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  23. poohpity says:

    Gary, narrow minded Christianity is what has pushed many away from the saving grace of Jesus Christ as well as really presenting a true picture of faith in light of what it truly is. Most Christians are spiritually bankrupt and then want to share their faith when they really do not have any to share. Christians seem to act in their own strength far more than they trust in the Lord especially in the USA they gain their worth by what they do not by who they trust in. Anger, hatred, prejudges and self righteousness are behaviors that are frequently displayed more than love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control those can only be displayed when we realize we have no part to play in them they come from living connected to the source.

  24. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… I have a problem with any thinking that says, anyone possessing the Holy Spirit as all Christ Followers certainly do, also being as you state, “most Christians are spiritually bankrupt.”
    Then, you say, “having no faith” to share as well?
    That was quite a double blow for all those you find guilty, who are not here to defend or support themselves, or your judgmental thinking.
    Wow, where did all that love and compassion for your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ suddenly go?
    Isn’t it funny how all those narrow minded Chrsitians in the world today, did not keep all of us away from following the faith though?
    Gary

  25. oneg2dblu says:

    Is it not unsetteling to you, that what many here would feel is the most close minded faith of all, especially toward women, but is also growing more rapidly today than all others?

  26. oneg2dblu says:

    We must not follow the masses, or take the wide road, or fall victim to this worlds great religions, and this worlds great temptations.
    We are to be as set apart, as a Holy chosen people, and only follow one master.
    If others seee that master in other religions, we already know they are only being religious, and being a religious follower is not what Christ teaches as the Way.

  27. oneg2dblu says:

    and being a religion’s follower is not what Christ teaches as the Way. :0

  28. oneg2dblu says:

    He said, “Follow Me,” not others and their religions.
    But as the world turns, that advice would become so very closed-minded.

  29. poohpity says:

    The reason I said, “spiritually bankrupt” is due to time spent with the Lord and getting to know Him. If they did that then their lives would be a reflection of the light, grace. Gandhi said, ““I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” I would say in reply to that is no one will ever be like Christ there was only one but they can be Christlike as in how they treat others. Most want the light to shine on them, they take credit for things that are from the Lord, they want to be heard, applauded and then boast as if it all depended on them.

  30. poohpity says:

    There is no trust when a calamity befalls them, they curse the Lord. When there is suffering they question God’s goodness. When asked why they believe the way they do they get mad and defensive because you asked. If a prayer is not answered the way they think God should answer they grumble and complain or feel undeserving of their request and most times do not even ask what God’s will is in the matter. They are seldom in need so they have never experienced God’s provisions, they try everything before they go to God and ask for help, they try and talk people into change rather than relying on God to do the changing. They trust what they can see, other people, before they trust what they can not see, God. Why do I say these things because of experience, listening and watching.

  31. Artle says:

    An elaboration of my initial comment: Adam and Eve missed the point and sin entered the world. Israel as they left Egypt missed the point and the law was given. The people still didn’t get it and the kings were given along with a few dozen profits for good measure. Jesus came and talked with them, God on earth with all the miracles, and they really missed the point that time.

    They all thought they knew the answers.

    Beyond that I need to study on this some. Not something that concerns me on a daily basis, but it is something I have wondered about at times.

    Here is a question that may add some perspective. The first people on earth to recognize Jesus as King of the Jews was three men from the east. What east did the come from?

  32. BruceC says:

    Artle,

    Some in theology believe that the “Kings of the East” believed what they did because of the influence of Daniel and other Jews during the captivity in Babylon. They had those writings and likely studied them.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  33. Artle says:

    Bruce, sounds like a possibility. They popped out of nowhere and returned.

    Have looked over the article and it sounds like the Zen Master has good medicine for an ailing world. I imagine people who take care of the people and the world around them are a step or two closer to God, so I can see why Dr. King and others would support his work. A mindful person would be more likely to listen to wild and crazy ideas that Jesus has to offer. To the world the Gospel is foolishness, but maybe not to a more thoughtful world.

    Followers of this type teaching are better for the world than many other teachings that are available.

    The big difference I see is the world that Jesus saves is not the one we are walking on.

  34. Bill says:

    Do some people here really and truly believe they’re going to hell just for entertaining thoughts espoused by Thich Nhat Hanh or brushing up against an “Eastern religion”?

    If God is not more powerful than Thich Nhat Hanh’s words, or even his entire religion (Pure Land Buddhism) then (a) no amount of effort on our part will make it so, and (b) God is really, really puny.

    Pooh’s comments are fascinating, insightful, and right on, like this one (September 26, 2013 at 3:53 pm):

    “…narrow minded Christianity is what has pushed many away from the saving grace of Jesus Christ as well as really presenting a true picture of faith in light of what it truly is. Most Christians are spiritually bankrupt and then want to share their faith when they really do not have any to share. Christians seem to act in their own strength far more than they trust in the Lord especially in the USA they gain their worth by what they do not by who they trust in. Anger, hatred, prejudges and self righteousness are behaviors that are frequently displayed more than love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control those can only be displayed when we realize we have no part to play in them they come from living connected to the source…”

    I agree with that statement, with one change: I’d use the word “some” instead of “most.” Otherwise, she’s totally right.

    She was also right with another post (September 26, 2013 at 5:02 pm), too. Many people have a problem with Christians saying one thing and doing another. Gandhi espoused 70 years ago what people still find true today.

    @Artle, your last post (September 26, 2013 at 7:55 pm) was another well-balanced and insightful one. Contemplative Christians (mostly Catholics like Thomas Merton) used to sound a lot like Zen masters. They were all about mindfulness, peace of mind, calmness, serving others.

    Somewhere during the last half century or so Christians shut out all but evangelical/fundamentalist ideology. In so doing, they shut out vast storehouses of wisdom from other traditions about how to be more at peace with God…and more of a servant to the world.

    @Pooh, you wrote a series of questions in an early post (September 26, 2013 at 1:41 pm). I’ve studied some of Thich Nhat Hanh’s works. Maybe I can answer some of your questions.

    You wrote: “If I were able to talk to Thay I would ask if aimlessness were the kind of philosophy he lived by but did he not have purpose when he wrote his books which have sold over 2 million copies?”

    Thay’s “aimlessness” is an antidote to the opposite of itself — being too busy and too worried about the future. Once someone attains that awareness of the present moment, there’s no need to practice aimlessness, except as an occasional reminder. So there’s no discrepancy between aimlessness and the focus required to write books.

    You wrote: “As he shared all the things he suffered while in VN and now teaches that those scars of the past and the worries of the future can be overcome with meditation and mindful living, what is it that he thinks about that makes it better?”

    He could be thinking about many things; however, I”m willing to bet he’s not thinking at all. He’s feeling — compassion. Meditation is not about thinking. It’s about clearing the mind, slowing down the world, focusing on something as simple as one’s breathing. Thay and others like him (the Dalai Lama, for example) spend time feeling compassion toward others. In short, replacing anger, bitterness, and fear with compassion. That can be transformational.

    You wrote: “He also talks about getting rid of anger and fear and using meditation as a means to suffer less and I just wanted to know if that in fact has worked because he never really stated if it did or did not?”

    Yes. It did. Thich Nhat Hanh’s life is exactly how it appears to be. He’s a very slow talking, methodical, mindful guy. He’s not known for angry outbursts, or for being afraid of anything. He is content in his own skin.

    You wrote: “He seemed to talk about success not equaling prosperity and prosperity not bringing happiness but all the times he has been asked to speak and give seminars how much did he make off of them aside from book sales?”

    I imagine that he makes a fortune from his popular seminars, books, and speaking engagements. However, his life is not one of extravagance. He lives simply, owns very little, and probably gives all of his money to his Plum Village organization. In fact, the copyright on his books is Plum Village, or the Buddhist denomination to which he belongs. It’s possible that he doesn’t receive money at all.

    (If you think about it, what difference does it make? Rick Warren — author of The Purpose Driven Life — makes a fortune as well. He gives it all away. Making money does not mean keeping money, nor does it mean having money corrupts one’s values and morals.)

    You wrote: “He also taught that what I do does not determine who I am and with that I totally agree because if we fail then we would be deemed a failure rather than a lesson. A person from thousands of years ago said that the person who desires to be rich falls into all kinds of temptations and can fall into ruin. But godliness with contentment is great gain.(1 Tim 6:6-10) Happiness only depends on the circumstance one finds their self in so although he does not equate happiness with materialism is he not pretty much set up financially to not worry about anything?”

    He, like any church pastor, doesn’t really have to depend on finances to survive. He is taken care of by the congregation, which in his case is called a Sangha. If he gets sick, a collection can be taken up. Or he has insurance already. But money is not what gives Thay peace of mind. It comes from his decades of meditation and mindfulness.

    You seem to be making an assumption that Thich Nhat Hanh is fabulously wealthy. I’ve read books by and about him for years. I’ve never gotten the impression that he has money.

    You wrote: “I relish the thought of ecumenism through cooperation and understanding and yes to me that would be peace to the Nth degree but how does one get rid of self through meditation and mindful living?”

    In my opinion, much more quickly than through Christian living.

    Christians talk about not having a self. But I’ve never known a single Christian in my three decades of being one that acted like he/she didn’t have a very strong self. Guys like Thay say they want to be like Buddha, and they sure enough are like Buddha. Christians, on the other hand, say they want to be like Jesus…and they act nothing like the Jesus of the Bible. Go figure.

    Getting rid of self for a Zen practitioner is about recognizing dualities and eliminating them. That doesn’t take a higher power. It just takes practice.

    You wrote: “Do we not need something greater than self to bring a peace that is far above our understanding or should we entrust man to bring the philosophies of man to change man?”

    Again, from my personal experience, Christians have far less peace than they claim to have. Or, to put it another way, Christians have as much peace as people in other religions — no more or less.

    You wrote: “I just do not know how that will work and if history is the great teacher in the heart of any man left to their own devises has always brought ruin and destruction no matter what guise it comes in.”

    You’re forgetting Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard, the youth pastor who was accused of raping young boys, etc. Christians have a very long and sad history of abuse, embezzlement, lies, and felonies. They have not been spared “their own devices” and they have brought ruin on themselves and their congregations.

    I know of a few Sanghas (Buddhist “churches”) that have had scandals, usually Zen teachers having sex with Sangha members. But no more than any Christian pastor cruising rest stops for gay lovers or diddling the church secretary.

    Having studied other religions and having so many friends from other religions has given me a perspective about these matters. I know Christians who are beautiful people. I know Buddhists and Sikhs who are beautiful people. And their number is about the same. Christians are no more at peace or loving or holy than people in other religions. They just claim to be more often.

    Seriously, people, it seems incredibly strange to me that most of the posts here are about the evils and wiles of Thich Nhat Hanh and his religion. They’re about how superior Christianity is, how much greater we are as believers.

    Very few posts are actually about the CONTENT of Thay’s teachings. How can any of us condemn others or what they believe without knowing anything about them?

    Doesn’t that seem odd to anyone?

  35. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… would you please explain to me, who are they and them you speak of, are they the narrow mined Christians?

    “They are seldom in need so they have never experienced God’s provision…”

    Christ in us is God’s provision.

    If we believe the word of God, then Our God already has supplied all our needs.

    What is it that we still need?
    Forgiveness?
    Salvation?
    Hope?
    Love?
    Direction?
    Helper?
    A friend?
    You seem to be listing the only things of this world,
    the needs of all fallen humanity.
    The bible teaches man’s greatest need is to have their sins forgiven, their answer to this eternity which God has placed in the hearts of everyone, their minds renewed.
    We who know Christ, know our place is at the banquet table of the Lord.

    They or them, to me, are the worldly, who need only be releived of their guilt, lonliness, emptiness, fear of death.

    Doesn’t Christ living in us fill all those needs?

    Prestige, power, recognition, status, wealth, and the like are all the trappings of this world, the temptations which would satisfy the fallen nature only, but the Spirit of God that is placed in us, that is what fills our greatest need.

    They and them must be the unfulfilled….Gary

  36. Jwigg says:

    By all means begin where people are when we declare the life-changing Good News of the Lord Jesus. The Good Samaritan in the parable came where the robbers’ victim was.

    Unlike the priest and the Levite, the despised Samaritan didn’t leave his neighbour to die by the roadside – With Christ’s help, we should aim never to leave our unbelieving neighbours “where they were” when it comes to their relationship to God.

    There is sufficient truth in Buddha’s teachings to make them appealing to post-modern Westerners: Desires do lead us to pain beyond the pleasures they pursue. Pursuit of material comfort and prosperity only tends to remind us that the “salvation” offered by materialism is an illusion – a kind of maya in Buddhist and Hindu terminology.

    However,the idea that humans and all things which have characteristics are connected reminds us that, ultimately in Eastern mysticism, good and evil themselves are illusions in a realm where the ultimate reality is something which is a nirvana only to be spoken of by what it is not.

    In ethical monism, good and evil are mere faces of the one illusory coin … even hunger and thirst after a God who is a person… a thirst after His righteousness are, on this level of thinking, illusory desires chaining humans to the physical realm.

    Biblical compassion is a “gut-wrenching” connection with the pain and suffering of others – a connection which reaches its apex in the vicarious suffering of the crucified Son of God for lost sinners. karma at best sees kindness to others as a means towards that divorce from all desires which is supposed to lead via moksha to nirvana.

    Compassion as an expression of a universe where universe and creator are one – illusory emanations of an entity without form and void and physical life is enmeshed in a web of reincarnation cycles makes some sense: What is now animal, may soon be human and vice versa; the same all-pervading soul is alleged to be in both the king and the mud beneath his feet…

    The true recovery of humanity in human experience is not in ascetic detachment and contemplative mystical disciplines: It lies in the confronting message of the crucified Jesus, who suffered the Just for the unjust so that sinners might once more come to truly bear the image and likeness of the God who created them as the pinnacle of life on His earth.

  37. Artle says:

    Are Christians as we think they are, as described in the comments above, or is the appearance simply the foolishness the world sees and maybe sometimes what we see though spiritual tired eyes?

    It may be the only appearance problem with Christians is trying to appear like the world thinks we should and not wanting to appear foolish, which is the natural look of a Christian as seen by the world (1 Corinthians 1:21 NASB).

    Forever, you might well have planted a seed or two at the family reunion. It does not take much faith to get started, just enough to weigh gently on a heart.

  38. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    It seems to me we, who are born into the world without any say-so, are not the source of being. God is uncreated and absolutely free — and has no “have-to” in his person or substance. We encounter God in the creation, in one another and in the special revelation of the Bible, but none of these is necessary.

    Mart, you wrote:
    “At a time when so many are trying to get religious controversy and polarities out of public life, the article reflects a growing awareness of what science and technology cannot give us. Through a call to spirituality that allows for personal choice and thoughtfulness, matters of the heart are being considered in places that have worshipped change, efficiencies, and profitability.”

    God did not have to create the world, the sky, seas, land, plants, animals or human beings. In the freedom of God’s person and being, God created what we are. Our person and being are not self-generated. In the Son of God we become authentic — entering the fellowship of God — and so become truly and fully human.

    When we (philosophically or scientifically) begin to obliterate (try to obliterate) the Creator God, we are steering toward nothingness and self-destruction. And, with our growing technological advances, we can accelerate toward the big zero at incredible speed.

    Thich Nhat Hanh offers a door out of that spiritual numbness — perhaps one door that is non-threatening in some way. In the Buddhist tradition, however, the ultimate goal is nothingness. I pray that in the “pause” of Zen contemplation, the very ground of being (God) will be revealed in corporate culture — and the Lord of Life will be found and worshiped.

    Maru

  39. s2inkzoo says:

    I think Jwigg hit on an important point to think about: Jesus often used Samaritans in his parables where they were the ones doing the right thing. They represented the spiritually “off base” of the day. Yet he pointed to them as sometimes being more righteous than the Jews.

    I think the message here is something to really take to heart: Do we start with “no” and “your wrong” when we talk with others, or do we support the Biblical truths that they are teaching (even thought they don’t come from the Bible). That would assume we take time to listen to what they are teaching. And there is the first part: loving them enough to respect and listen to their thoughts and beliefs.

    Working at a large corporation, I have to attend many training classes. It is amazing how many of the successful and lasting ones have underlying biblical truths woven into what they teach. I am not saying that it is presented as a bible teaching or is tied to Jesus, but truths like you need to truly care about others, stop being selfish and just thinking about yourself, and you have to reflect on what you are doing wrong and your part in the problem before you begin to look at what others are doing wrong. There is much more too. But, truth is truth no matter if they attribute it to the Source or not.

    The second part is that if we show them that we do love them, and care and respect them, then eventually when they will realize the shortcoming or inconsistencies in the teaching, we may have an opportunity to help them. That is when we can guide them to the more excellent way.

    As someone said above, God and his message is more powerful than we give Him credit for. The Spirit is more powerful than our power to persuade people to believe God. The truths of God’s Word can can draw people on its own.

  40. SFDBWV says:

    Remembering that the underlying subject is *wisdom*, once again I point out that Solomon used the ant as an example of wisdom in action. God also used the mysteries of His creation to confound Job; so as people we look for wisdom to produce actions that produce good results.

    I believe that is the thrust of Google’s action; attempting to achieve a desired result.

    So wisdom teaches to find actions that can achieve our goals and we call such action *wise*.

    The *Wise* men from Persia were the “Magi”, the Magi were an educated ruling class people of the old religions of the Babylonian, and Persian peoples. They were old school astrologers not to confuse their form of astrology with the fortune telling nonsense we see in the newspaper today.

    Their teachings and their study of the Hebrew Torah gave them information that on or about this date in the astrological time cycle a King would be born in Israel and He would be the promised Messiah.

    They made *wise* use of studying the Hebrew text and acted upon it by wanting to witness this birth and give Him the honor they thought appropriate, they also knew a lot more about His future as is reflected in the gifts they gave Him.

    We must not confuse our worship and devotion to God through Jesus with our learning from life around us.

    If we can learn wisdom from Aesop’s fables or from O’Henry’s short stories or from just watching a beaver build a dam or an ant store food for winter, surely we can learn from other religions.

    The danger doesn’t lay in the recognition of wisdom in these other religions; the danger lay in adopting their beliefs.

    Another warning from wisdom tells us that we can not take fire to our breast and not be burned, so we sometimes can look but not touch, just like in the garden.

    Steve

  41. Bill says:

    @Maru, you wrote (September 27, 2013 at 3:29 am):

    “Thich Nhat Hanh offers a door out of that spiritual numbness — perhaps one door that is non-threatening in some way. In the Buddhist tradition, however, the ultimate goal is nothingness. I pray that in the ‘pause’ of Zen contemplation, the very ground of being (God) will be revealed in corporate culture — and the Lord of Life will be found and worshiped.”

    That is very wise, and quite fairly balanced.

    I would like to mention that Zen is not about “nothingness.” Just the opposite. Zen is about everythingness. The word sunyata (“shoon-ya-ta”), most often translated as nothingness or void or emptiness, is more accurately translated as everythingness. The misconception about Zen is that it is nihilistic or negative because it tries to attain nothingness or emptiness. Not so. Zen is about embracing all of life — attaching nothing to it — and reveling in what is, which is another way of being content with just being alive.

    There is no “goal” in Zen other than to wake up. And what one is supposed to wake up to is the reality of this present moment.

    The point of intersection between the classic contemplatives like Thomas Merton and Zen Buddhists is on this point — they are both interested in experiencing the reality of *this* moment. They seek to shed all the layers that life has piled on and just BE in this moment, taking it all in.

    I don’t know if that explanation helps or muddies the water. But I thought I’d throw it out there as part of the discussion.

    Love to all!

    Bill

  42. Artle says:

    The comments starting with Jwigg says: September 26, 2013 at 9:57 pm thru SFDBWV says: September 27, 2013 at 5:36 am, (discounting the Artle which I need to do so as not to boast, and was looking at Christians, not Zen) contain a good balance of the topic; accepting with thoughtful reserve. The combined speak to Bills idea of why this topic may be good for the world.

    There were other “outsiders” who recognized Jesus as he walked the streets, people that had not been included by Him in His ministry. He was not talking to them but, when they approached, he did not turn them away. Though he was sent to Israel (at the time) he spoke to the Samaritan women at the well and he knew her life story.

    I imagine if Jesus walked by a Zen master, there is a fair chance the Zen master might feel the presence of the Master of all.

    Belief is great, but knowing what you believe is greater.

  43. Artle says:

    Not to say that all the other comments have not been useful. Jwigg’s seemed to bring things into perspective.

  44. Bill says:

    Steve, I’d like to comment on something you wrote this morning (September 27, 2013 at 5:36 am):

    “If we can learn wisdom from Aesop’s fables or from O’Henry’s short stories or from just watching a beaver build a dam or an ant store food for winter, surely we can learn from other religions.”

    That is true wisdom, my friend — to see the world and those in it as teachers, learning from everything and everyone. I learn a lot from taking walks with my wife in a nearby nature preserve. The lake is bordered by a forest that is slowly being eaten up by beavers. I kid you not. Trees are falling left and right from being chewed down. It’s an amazing, truly awesome sight to see that little animals can fell massive trees that I can’t even get my arms around. I’m sure I can draw all sorts of lessons from this. But I’m just amazed by God’s creativity and sense of humor.

    “The danger doesn’t lay in the recognition of wisdom in these other religions; the danger lay in adopting their beliefs.”

    I’m not sure there’s a whole lot of “danger” involved for believers. We’ve already adopted many pagan elements into our life — Christmas, for example, has pagan origins. We simply made it something different. Same could be said of Easter.

    I used to have a Jewish friend. On more than one occasion, I attended a Seder with her or even a Friday night service at her temple. I have, in a sense, “adopted” beliefs from Judaism in that I am much, much more attuned to Jewish holidays, and even like embracing certain phrases like shalom or mazel tov.

    I have Buddhist friends who have a tradition of bowing to each other, which I find absolutely adorable. For some reason, I have “adopted” that tradition and I often bow to my Buddhist friends when I meet them. It is a sign of respect and love.

    If God is God, and if I am his, then I have very little to fear from other religions or practitioners of them.

    Thank you for your continued contributions, Steve. You are a great teacher, indeed.

  45. Artle says:

    I picture a great highway that we all walk toward the House of God. I see all sorts of people, some I never imagined would be on this road. Some are in front of me as I walk and some are behind. I imagine all peaceful, neighbor loving people are on the road, whether they know it or not. If they don’t know they are on the road, and cannot see the House at the end, they may stop and sit down. As I walk by with purpose, I imagine they will feel the need to rise up and follow. (If they happen to be meditating as I walk by I may “accidently” kick a pebble in their direction.)

  46. cbrown says:

    Artle that was awesome! But, I think that it is more a sraight pathway yet God’s pathway can be like the camel and the eye of the needle.

  47. SFDBWV says:

    Good morning Bill et-al, having a little time between getting our dinner in the oven and Matt’s walk; I thought I might look in and see what’s cooking on BTA.

    I find no disagreement in Jesus’ teaching and the customs of being polite and friendly, As a matter of fact presenting oneself as such is quite disarming and sets a more relaxed mood for conversation or even just to say hello.

    I was trying to recall as I write this about Jesus telling Simon that he (Simon) did not follow what seemed to be customary in that time for water to wash the feet of a visitor or a welcoming kiss or oil to anoint such a favored guest. (Luke 7:44)

    As I recalled that Scripture story, I was also reminded of an ancient Greek custom of male visitors being bathed by the women of the house upon their arrival.

    The custom of waving hello to someone has its roots in showing someone as they approach from afar that you are unarmed.

    It seems the tradition of bowing and presenting the back of your neck to someone also has a traditional root in showing trust in the person to whom you bow towards.

    Such common sense polite behavior even the adoption of such behavior is certainly not out of favor with the teachings of Jesus, but what is, is worshiping along with people of any other religion other than what we would consider “Christianity”.

    We can not light incense to their gods or bow to them or enter into the customs of worship to any god other than the Hebrew God and only by way of Jesus of Nazareth.

    To some that is that old saw “my way or the highway”, but Jesus said himself there is no other doorway to God except through Him.

    So whereas I can be polite and friendly to all peoples of nearly any religion, I will always be at odds with them concerning their *faith*, that being the only time I may question their wisdom.

    I hope I ain’t offending or stirring the pot, just being honest and expressive.

    Steve

  48. oneg2dblu says:

    Google Listens…Wisdom, I botrh fear and trust comes in many forms, where there is certainly much worldly wisdom as displayed by all the writings, quotations, and works of all learned men, and then there is another Wisdom that begins with the Fear of God, a godly wisdom which only comes through knowing God.

    John 14:6
    Christ answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

    John 1:51
    Then he said,” I tell you the truth, you will all see heaven open and the Angels of God going up and down on the Son of Man, the one who is the stairway between heaven and earth.”

    Then, there is a quote from the wisdom of Buddha…

    “The sky is not the way. The heart is the way.”

    I too truly see a very close parallel lurking there in those words, an almost genuine pure holy thought, but it lacks the real way, and that to me, has all the markings of a counterfiet which must look deceptively right, or it will not get passed around and fool many, which is the “soul purpose,” (PUN) of its design, and designer.

    Whom do you choose to believe?

    Whom do you choose to follow?

    Whom do you hold in your heart?

    The learned teachings of the man Buddha, religion, or the only One who is both fully man and fully God, the person of Jesus Christ, the eternal living God, which lives in the heart of every believer.

    Only the heart that has received the faith deposit of Christ “revealed,” can ever be the heart that is the way.

    There is no other way according to Jesus Christ, Our Lord, and Our God.

    To me, Although it may seem that all the roads of the world traveled by “learned man” may lead many others to much worldly wisdom, but only the Narrow Way leads to the Following of Christ, where the correct fear of God exists, and that according to the Word of God, is the Beginning of all true Wisdom.

    Gary

  49. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve…”Such common sense polite behavior even the adoption of such behavior is certainly not out of favor with the teachings of Jesus, but what is, is worshiping along with people of any other religion other than what we would consider “Christianity” (.”)

    I would light a candle for you on that one, your taking that stand, but I am not commanded in my heart to light candles, to me, that would be following another religion instead.

    Your comment was perfection, with eloquence, and much godly Wisdom!

    We must all discern for ourselves, lest the Spirit in us leads instead, just where our truth ends and God’s truth endures, and finding a place where we all will mix well.

    Gary

  50. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… thank you.
    Matthew 10:22
    How that verse rings so true for us today where Christians are being pursecuted everywhere. even here!

    We must remember it is all part of Following Christ, and making sure of “our election” to not fall for into another’s way, no matter how loving it may sound.
    Gary

  51. poohpity says:

    There is a vast difference in being persecuted for your faith and being rejected for behaviors that do not faintly resemble what one says they believe. Day and night.

    I bet it is so possible to live a cloistered life and practice peace, sustainability and serenity. I respect this master of zen for the ideas he is promoting I just differ in how and who I depend on to achieve them. I would do well (maybe,lol) if I had people who ministered to my every need and thought of me like a godddess separated from the world around me not cluttered with junk or noise or even my own thinking but that is not possible. The Lord told me if I trust in Him and treat others like I want to be treated being in the world I can find peace, contentment, security, compassion and joy without a cloistered existence. Happiness is elusive and seems to trust in circumstance to find it.

    If I seek wisdom from heaven my stance will be a peacemakers not a disturber. (James 3:17-18 NIV) Being considerate of others and submissive to their needs does not go against my faith it promotes it. Listening compassionately to those who talk and not put them down because I may believe differently does not pose a threat to my faith or me.

  52. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… I agree. If I seek wisdom from heaven, (and if I apply it) my stance will be a peacemakers not a disturber :)

    I don’t think this covers all circumstances though, sometimes cords must be gathered together to make a whip to chase the money changers, or evil motives, out of the house of God.

    Sometimes the wisdom even comes to divide families, like the wisdom from heaven shown in Matthew 10:34.

    So, being a disturber may be using great wisdom as well.
    Gary

    Like Artie kicking the pebble to awaken the meditator.

  53. Artle says:

    I think we have to admit that there are some qualities to different religions that may be beneficial to those who follow them, while realizing that although their ideas may fall short of the ultimate destination, what they practice may bring them closer to the Truth.

    I think we have to admit that there are some qualities to different beliefs that may be beneficial to those who follow them, while realizing that although their ideas may fall short of the ultimate destination, what they practice may bring them closer to the Truth.

    I think we have to admit that there are some qualities to different Gospels that may be beneficial to those who follow them, while realizing that although their ideas may fall short of the ultimate destination, what they practice may bring them closer to the Truth.

  54. remarutho says:

    Fellowshipping with those who come from every persuasion, it seems to me I am called to hold closely the following:

    1) God, who breathed the cosmos into being, is necessary to being of any kind. (Genesis 1:31-2:1)

    2) There is no “flame without the candle.” This is what Hindu philosophy calls “sat,” the way things are in reality. (Ecclesiastes 12:1, 7)

    3) The wheel of samsara does not exist. Only the Creator God is without beginning and without end — the Lord is the only giver of life. (Genesis 2:7)

    4) God in Christ loves the world, and I am sent to share that love (John 3:16)

    Maru

  55. poohpity says:

    That is where you and I differ Gary. I do not believe it is my job to do what Jesus did with the money changers, he knew the condition of their hearts. I just can not compare myself to the Lord in anyway or think it is my job to do His job. I trust and depend on God.

    Yes there will be divisions with families, friends and anyone who thinks me giving my love and devotion to the Lord above all else and choosing His ways above how they think I should be does cause divisions those divisions can also happen with believers who have yet to trust in God alone. I have not been able to do that perfectly but it is my desired goal and purpose.

  56. Bill says:

    I have a question for everyone.

    If you met someone who is a Buddhist, let’s say, and he asked you if you would accompany him to a service at his temple in exchange for him attending a service at your church, would you do it?

    In other words, if you had a chance to witness to a Buddhist but the condition was you had to attend a service at his temple, would you say no?

  57. remarutho says:

    I have Buddhist friends and colleagues, Bill.

    We are much more likely to share in other settings — neither a temple nor a church. We might have tea — or meet for a meal, rather than worship. We meet at food distribution — or advocacy meetings — ministry breakfasts, which might be held in a church or temple dining area…etc.

    It seems to me the ecumenical community has much work to bring us together in our common humanity. Jew, Adventist, Christian, Ba’Hai, Muslim…seldom discuss theology in the things we do together.

    Do you worship with your Buddhist friends?

    Maru

  58. Artle says:

    Short answer (via tablet) = sure, why not. I’d be worshipping my God in either location, but I strive to do this wherever. Not always successful. :-(

  59. poohpity says:

    What does going to a building have to do with witnessing? I would just invite the person over for a cup of tea to get to know each other.

  60. poohpity says:

    lol, I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.

  61. Artle says:

    Pooh, may be a good approach. Tell me about your life (faith), and I’ll tell you about mine.

  62. Artle says:

    Sitting in the nighttime air, I imagine similar to the “cool of the day”. Been a tramatic few days (aka another story). I believe the blessings flow as I pray for everyone to share the blessings I have.

    God bless us all… every one.

    Check your faith. It should be stronger. If it is, it ain’t me. It’s Him.

  63. Bill says:

    @Pooh, here’s my question again:

    “If you met someone who is a Buddhist, let’s say, and he asked you if you would accompany him to a service at his temple in exchange for him attending a service at your church, would you do it?

    “In other words, if you had a chance to witness to a Buddhist but the condition was you had to attend a service at his temple, would you say no?”

    So “the building” is your new friend/acquaintance asking you to visit his temple, in exchange for which he’ll attend your church.

  64. bubbles says:

    When someone comes to the door with false teaching literature, I always take what they have to offer.

    THEN I ask them to take something from me and tell them I hope they read it thoughtfully and carefully. They leave my door with a tract that contains the gospel.

    I pray they will read this when they leave.

  65. bubbles says:

    Ecumenicalism is not of God.

  66. poohpity says:

    Bill, the building is just that, a building. I was not saying as Artle said about show me your faith and I’ll show you mine. I was saying if you show me your temple I’ll show you my church both are just buildings and have nothing what so ever to do with faith or witnessing. So I can not answer your question to me it is to silly but that is just my opinion. I could no more learn about the buddist beliefs from a visit to a temple as mine could be learned about going to a church service. I have actually never witnessed to someone by taking them to church not to say that it is not done but I have talked with people out of a church building more times than I can count. If I take them to church then it is not me witnessing to them, it is the pastor.

    What I have desired to know about buddism I have read only in a FYI kind of way. Why would I want to learn about something else when I have found complete satisfaction in the faith the Lord has given me?

  67. poohpity says:

    It is the Lord that draws those who listen to Himself and normally if someone wants to know they will ask then is the time to witness and use words if you have to.

  68. cbrown says:

    Ecumenism mainly refers to initiatives aimed at greater Christian unity or cooperation. These initiatives are often referred to as interdenominational. It is used predominantly by and with reference to Christian denominations and Christian Churches separated by doctrine, history, and practice. Within this particular context, the term ecumenism refers to the idea of a Christian unity in the literal meaning: that there should be a single Church. Not to be confused with Nondenominational Christianity.

    The word contrasts with interfaith dialogue or interfaith pluralism aimed at unity or cooperation among diverse religions and referring to a worldwide “religious unity” by the advocacy of a greater sense of shared spirituality.

  69. cbrown says:

    Footnote for above definition- Ecumenism – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  70. Artle says:

    Shortly to follow will be a comment regarding Bill’s question. It is not aimed at anyone, though it does use bits and pieces left lying. It’s only purpose is to clear the fog in which we live and try to breathe.

    I do love you all (those whoever may read this) more than you can know, at least for now.

  71. Artle says:

    I think the importance of Bill’s question is would we listen to someone else so they would listen to us. Please forgive me if needed, as I take the question to a higher level and outside the walls of uselessness. Buildings are of no concern. Afternoon tea is of no concern. It does not matter who or what belief they hold. Would we listen to them (whoever they are) in hopes they would listen to us?

    People, regardless of who they are, do not care what we know, unless they know how much we care.

    If we don’t care, the answer is NO. If we do care, the answer is YES Lord, show me the way.

    Please forgive my outburst, but more importantly, get over it and live for Christ.

    Praying very hard as I hit the button.

  72. belleu says:

    Yes, I would visit a Buddhist Temple with someone who invited me. I couldn’t ask them to go to my church because I left organized religion years ago. But I would love to discuss their beliefs and mine. My sister considered becoming a Buddhist in order to find peace of mind. She tried meditation for awhile. She quit because she worked long hours and couldn’t find the time. She says you must spend considerable time in meditation to become peaceful and calm. She thinks Buddhism is a way of life, not a religion. She is a Christian now.

    The definition of a ‘religion’ is worshiping a higher power and Buddhism does not do this. She told me of the 4 Noble Truths and the 8-Fold Path. It was all good stuff in my opinion. Desiring too much does cause pain and suffering in this life. And striving to be good is a ‘good’ thing.

    I have found God gives me peace of mind and contentment in life when I pray about it. I know I couldn’t do this for myself – perhaps some people can through meditation. I have some mental problems because of abuse in my childhood but God has seen me through this and is my comfort and joy. I see Buddhism as a way of helping yourself and becoming serene through your own efforts. This would be impossible for me. I’m a thoroughly mixed-up person who needs God desperately.

    The goals of Google in hiring this teacher are good. I would like to see corporations become kinder, more thoughtful of others and less greedy.

    Cheryl- I pray God’s mighty hand will be upon you. May he bless and help you. I pray wisdom will guide you and the doctors.

  73. foreverblessed says:

    How to start a conversation:
    It would be very good to see the good points of mindfulness:
    Do we as christians not have to come to a point of rest?
    Do we not have to step down, and give all our worries to Jesus?
    We could start the converstation, with listening, in ht emeantime we can listen to the Holy Spirit, and this is the stage I am in: if I do not hear specific commands, I do not say anything. What I do hear is my own thoughts, or many thoughts going around, and I am not sure whether they are from the Holy Spirit. So I come to the conclusion, that the coming to rest of my own thoughts I have to learn that more and more! They have a good point, mindfulness: Christfulness, is my interpretation for myself: give your unrest, the continuing rattling of thoughts, give it to Jesus. Come to rest, come to Jesus, ask for rest, for peace, and wait till He gives it. And this to me is a training, a disciplining, and in my case it takes years.

    Lat night we had a church evening, and a good speaker: John 14:6
    He said, many people do good things looking for God, doing what is good.
    But the only way to seeing God as Father, is through Jesus. Jesus shows us the Father! God as Father, we his children, free as a child in His care, fully confident that our Father will take care of all our needs. We do not have to worry, what a mindfulness!

  74. SFDBWV says:

    I said at the beginning of this topic Bill is more qualified to speak concerning it as I don’t really know much about Buddhism. I know only enough to sound foolish if I were to discuss their beliefs or practices, so that I have to leave to those who do know.

    Bill’s question of whether I would attend a service at a Buddhist temple in exchange for attending a service at my church has merit and requires a thoughtful answer.

    At the beginning I am led to Acts 15:20 this verse of Scripture dealing with “temple* worship and a requirement of abstinence from it. An added more complicated and stern warning comes from Peter in 2 Peter 2:20. I say complicated because this warning is about false teachers who entangle the old pollutants of their former faiths with the revelation of Christ.

    In the garden the serpent was not direct but subtle; on the surface it may sound harmless enough to be cordial enough to say yes I would go to a Buddhist temple service in exchange for a Buddhist to attend a church service. However this is way more complex than just that.

    In the garden it was what Eve seen with her eyes that she desired in her heart, nothing has changed. What we see is only a beginning to what we may desire in our heart.

    My answer to Bill’s question lay in what I know of in the Word of God.

    I almost have to discard all of the examples in the OT concerning this because the God of the OT had no tolerance for even the least infraction of His Law. So I then must turn only to the Gospels and teachings of the NT. The teaching from the OT would say *no*.

    Jesus went wherever it was He was ask to go and even seen as polluting Himself by being in the presence of defilers of the law. However He did not as I have read violate any conditions of the law.

    Jesus’ commandment is to love one another as He has loved us. (John 15:12)

    Paul is *taken* to a rocky hill in Athens which is also a court named Areopagus (Acts 17:19) where he gave his famous Mars Hill speech (Acts 17:22-34).

    Aside from Paul speaking in Hebrew Temples, I know of no Scripture reference of him going into any pagan temple to speak or to listen to their beliefs.

    I think it very necessary when aiding a new believer to remove them from distractions while they are still new and vulnerable to being misled. They must be protected and nurtured like little babies until able to stand on their own.

    It is said faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17); so what may be the destroyer of faith? What would be the opposite of the Word of God? Perhaps all false religions and their doctrines.

    So is it polluting our hearts by listening to false doctrines or is it hearing false doctrine and being able to discern it as false.

    Do we purposely place ourselves in front of the tree or do we avoid the tree and avoid temptation?

    I have to ask how many Google employees will take a closer look at Buddhism as a religion as a result of *listening* to the teachings of this man.

    I must follow the urgings of the Holy Spirit in my heart and say I would feel very uncomfortable in a pagan temple, would only be there under false pretense and so acting in a lie.

    My Buddhist friend would just have to respect my beliefs and understand I could not partake in a service of worship to any God other than the God of Israel. If they want to talk about their doctrine it would have to be in a setting outside of their worship setting.

    Steve

  75. Artle says:

    The second to last sentence in my last post should have read: “Please forgive my outburst, but more importantly, live for Christ.”

    Steve’s points about actual worship services are very good. We too often expect all Christians to be on high ground and they (we) may not be there yet.

    Adding some background to my last post, which I had veered away from building worship services: To me, and from a, “should I talk to this person”, point of view, it should not matter whether someone is in to Zen or in to gin. Their religion, beliefs or gospels or lack thereof, really does not figure into the question. (Side point: Someone who lives by an outdated Gospel is also in need.)

    I think where the majority of Christians “miss the point” is, we don’t need to convert people; all we need to do is listen. If we listen then the opportunity will present to talk softly to their heart. It’s only if their heart hears His voice when we speak that they will be blessed with His presence, and at that point, our work is finished and His work can start.

    There are great things that happen in the churches across the land, but all things of worth would happen without the buildings and I sometimes wonder if we would not be better off without them (the buildings).

  76. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    The listening that Google executives and HR directors are doing is good for people in my view — and good for their organization — and ultimately the quality of life of all — and perhaps the financial health of Google.

    Thich Nhat Hanh does not offer answers, it seems to me. His tradition is noted for spending time de-stressing, being mindful and appreciative of life in the moment.

    It seems to me we all live in the questions — never securing a “once-for-all” answer to any spiritual question. I continue to pray that open dialogue among peoples will allow the Prince of Peace to enter into the lives of us all.

    Mart, the passage you chose from the Book of James is very appropriate:

    “For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.”

    Blessings,
    Maru

  77. cbrown says:

    Romans1:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

    13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. 14 I know and am convinced [f]in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be [g]spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then [h]we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats [i]and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have [j]as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin. To me the important question is in light of the above verses when “Google” sets up the above seminar for your department will you go?

  78. Artle says:

    Paul warns the Corinthians concerning visiting an idol’s temple (1 Corinthians 8 NASB); similar to Steve’s comments above, but with a twist (same twist as Cbrown’s). His concern is someone of weaker faith may see me walk into the temple and be led astray. With the knowledge I could hurt someone else by doing something that my faith gives me the strength to do, I must stop and consider. I would not be able to visit the temple without a large sign that said, JESUS IS THE WAY, to keep others from stumbling. So, I suppose now I would need to ask my Zen friend if my sign would be welcome.

  79. Artle says:

    Just caught Cbrown’s question at the end of his last comment, “To me the important question is in light of the above verses when “Google” sets up the above seminar for your department will you go?”

    It would be interesting to know how companies handle this question.

  80. Bill says:

    I have been champing at the bit reading all of these posts coming into my iPhone. I’ve been out and about, unable to reply.

    I’m finally at the office and can add my two cents (for whatever they’re worth) to this discussion, which took a fascinating turn, with a number of superb comments from people.

    @Steve, I believe this may be the first time I’ve disagreed with one of your opinions. On this one, I disagree sharply.

    You wrote (September 28, 2013 at 7:47 am):

    “I must follow the urgings of the Holy Spirit in my heart and say I would feel very uncomfortable in a pagan temple, would only be there under false pretense and so acting in a lie.

    “My Buddhist friend would just have to respect my beliefs and understand I could not partake in a service of worship to any God other than the God of Israel. If they want to talk about their doctrine it would have to be in a setting outside of their worship setting.”

    That answer is 180 degrees different from what I believe the Bible teaches — and contains within it the seeds of why I believe you are in error.

    To recap, you…

    * judged your friend’s temple a “pagan temple”

    * said you would feel “very uncomfortable”

    * said you would be there under “false pretense”

    * said you’d be “acting a lie”

    Furthermore…

    * your “friend would just have to respect my beliefs”

    * you “could not partake in a service of worship to any God other than the God of Israel”

    Bottom line:

    “If they want to talk about their doctrine it would have to be in a setting outside of their worship setting.”

    Like the opening line of Rick Warren’s book The Purpose Drive Life, “it’s not about you.”

    With all due respect, my well-read and articulate brother, everything you wrote was about you, instead of about your friend, whom is likely unsaved and looking to you for answers.

    Yet, instead of providing answers (or help), you told him — if he reads between the lines — (a) your God is so small, and so full of dos and don’ts, that you’re afraid to make a wrong move, and (b) that saving his soul means less to you than being very, very careful not to offend your God.

    Try as I might, I can’t find an example in the New Testament that supports your opinion — especially not in the life of Jesus, who routinely spent time with tax collectors, whores, lepers, and others deemed unworthy by the religious rulers of the day.

    I also cannot find an example in the teaching of Paul, who wrote:

    “For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but nunder the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.” (1 Corinthians 9:19-23, ESV)

    Even in 1 Corinthians 8:1-11, Paul answers the question if it’s okay to eat meat served to idols with a Yes.

    “…an idol has no real existence, and that ‘there is no God but one.’” (1 Corinthians 8:4, ESV)

    You’ve always struck me as a guy with deep compassion and wisdom. Yet, on this matter, you are telling us (and God) that saving the soul of someone has to take a back seat to your understanding of “the law” of scripture (which I cannot find in the New Testament). That surprises me.

    I believe your answer arises from a misunderstanding of Buddhism, which belleu ably discussed in an earlier (September 28, 2013 at 1:52 am) post.

    Buddhism can be a religion. And some within it actually do worship Buddha. But it is mostly a way of life, especially Zen, as belleu indicated.

    Belleu’s sister was correct. Buddhism, in general, does not worship a higher power. I used to think it did, too, when I’d read books about cults and world religions. When I actually studied it myself, and got to know people in it, I realized the books are wrong.

    The Four Noble Truths are, actually, brilliant. The Buddha observed life and concluded that people suffer, and that they suffer because they are attached to things (people, places, ideas, religions, etc.). He concluded there’s a way out of suffering. He called the way out the Eightfold Path, which calls for being mindful of one’s life, treating others well, etc. Christians would say the way out is God. And that’s right, in theory. But even that falls short because I know many, many, many, MANY Christians who are just as unhappy, just as fearful, just as caught up in ideas and attachments that they’re no better off than non-Christians.

    A Zen temple isn’t about idols, or even religion. There may be a statue of Buddha in a Zen temple. But that’s no more an idol than crosses or elaborate statues of Jesus on the cross in Catholic churches.

    Meditation happens in a Zen temple. And a Dharma talk, mostly likely, which is a kind of “sermon” given by the Zen teacher. But it’s not a “sermon” about Buddha, or religion. It’s a “sermon” about being compassionate toward others on life’s path.

    It’s entirely possible people could be “uncomfortable” in a Buddhist temple. But I’m “uncomfortable” in churches of certain denominations or in certain regions of the United States. Anywhere that is unfamiliar to me makes me uncomfortable at first.

    But is my lack of comfort enough to keep me from sharing my faith? Heck, no.

    And did Jesus tell people, “Look, if you want to hear my teachings, you’re going to have to leave behind your brothel, tax collection business, or get healed so you’re not covered with all those sores. You look terrible”? No. He just mingled with people. He went where they are.

    I could not even imagine telling someone from another religion, “Sorry. I can’t attend your service to understand you better. But you’ll have to attend mine if you want to understand me better.”

    That, to me, is precisely the kind of religiosity that Jesus warned us about…and died to save us from.

  81. Bill says:

    All of this is why I said at the outset of Mart’s post:

    “This is one of the most profound and important blogs you’ve ever written, Mart. I believe it has the power to change the world.”

    I believe our response to Mart’s post — as well as to the question I posed, or that cbrown posed (September 28, 2013 at 8:48 am) at the bottom of his/her post — reveal more about ourselves and our faith than anything yet discussed on BTA.

    I also believe that our answers to this issue are indicative of the future of Christianity in America.

    In the early 1980s (perhaps 1982 or ’83), Franky Schaeffer, the son of the late Dr. Francis A. Schaffer, recorded a talk given (I think) at Liberty University titled “Christianity as Truth Rather Than a Religion.” It changed my life.

    Either Christianity is truth — whether we believe it or not — or it is a religion, one that requires our continued effort to maintain, explain, defend, and abide by lest we fall into the pit of hell.

    If God exists, if Jesus really died on the cross, and if the Bible (as much of it as we understand) is true, then how could it possibly matter if we attended a Buddhist service every single day of our lives?!?!?! What possible difference could it make if we think Thich Nhat Hanh has something wise to offer, or that we might benefit from attending his lecture at our company??!?!?!

    Is our faith so tenuous, so puny, so fragile, so dependent on our precise actions and thoughts (which differ by denomination, study Bible version, and seminary ideology) that we are AFRAID to actually rub shoulders with other human beings, even those with whom we disagree, perhaps even sharply?!?!?!

    Apparently, for many of us here, the answer is Yes — our faith really IS that tenuous, puny, fragile, and dependent on what we think and do.

    What that tells me is our God is no more powerful, no more capable, than Buddha. Or Vishnu. Or Mohammed.

    Either our God is the creator of the universe — all powerful, all loving, all holy, all King of Kings and Lord of Lords — or he is not. If he is, then 99% of what we’re worried about in our lives, in this blog post, as well as others Mart has initiated over the years, is pointless. If he is not, then why are we wasting our time in churches and with our Bibles?

  82. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    The entire body of wisdom literature in the Bible owes much to non-Israelite writings. Solomon himself was somewhat eclectic on his sources for wisdom. The so-called “Sayings of the Wise” passages of Proverbs are attributed to an Egyptian sage, Amenemope, I believe.

    Hear his thoughts:

    Incline your ear, and hear the words of the wise,
    and apply your heart to my knowledge,
    for it will be pleasant if you keep them within you,
    if all of them are ready on your lips.
    That your trust may be in the Lord,
    I have made them known to you today, even to you.
    (Proverbs 22:17, 18, 19)

    Surely the blessed Holy Spirit gives discernment to those who put their trust in the Creator God through his Son. (1 John 4:1)

    Maru

  83. SFDBWV says:

    Bill, Matt will soon be coming to the computer and I off to many chores so my time is very limited, so forgive me if I don’t get in all I want to say.

    It is ok if you don’t agree with me, I am me, not you and what you feel comfortable with doesn’t mean I should or visa versa.

    Jesus may have been friends with whores and tax collectors but He didn’t join in the act of prostitution nor did he put money ahead of all else. Jesus leads I follow.

    The question you ask is, would I attend a Buddhist temple service, this is a question about *me*. So to quote Rick Warren about a question directed at me is way off subject.

    I tried to lay down my reasoning behind my decision, concerning your question.

    I said this is a complicated answer and to give it full reply would require a very long and detailed writing, but you have went on ahead and filled in the missing parts with your own judgments concerning my actions.

    So be it!

    I could not in all good conscience attend and participate in a worship service that directed worship towards anyone or anything except God the Father through Jesus of Nazareth.

    That’s where I am that’s where I stand.

    You want to discuss how to interact with others who believe differently is another subject with different particulars.

    I am sorry Bill to have disappointed you and not just be a reflection of yourself, in my beliefs.

    Steve

  84. Bill says:

    No need for anger or sarcasm, Steve. I meant no disrespect to you. You took my disagreement of your opinion far more personally than you should have.

    Two quick responses:

    1. When I wrote “It’s not about you” I meant that your answer as to what you’d do didn’t take into account the non-saved person. So my comment was not “way off subject.” It was PRECISELY the subject. You provided opinions about how you felt about the situation. But nowhere did you indicate what was at stake if you didn’t do as your friend asked. What price a soul, my friend?

    2. You’ve missed the point regarding what I told you about Buddhist temples. They do not “worship” anything. So your opinion is based on an assumption. To look at it another way, do you attend football games, or watch sports on TV? The level of “worship” at such events far exceeds that found in a Buddhist temple.

    I do not personally care what you or anyone here does with his or her life. You stand before God alone, not with me by your side.

    Furthermore, in the grand scheme my opinions don’t matter one iota. I’m nobody.

    People can take or leave what I post here. I hold no animosity for those who disagree, nor do I assign positive feelings toward those who agree. I merely observe and offer opinions.

    And you know what they say about opinions, right? They’re like, uh, elbows. Everybody has one.

  85. poohpity says:

    Please pray for me. I received a letter yesterday from my insurance company and my family doctor, we have gone to over 15 years, will no longer be covered under the new insurance rules and regulations starting in November. Pray for direction and wisdom. We also share the same faith.

  86. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Praying for you pooh. Do you mean you won’t have insurance or that your insurance will no longer cover the doctor you’ve had for 15 years?

    Tracey

  87. Bill says:

    Dear Pooh,

    If you refer to the implementation of ObamaCare, I’m afraid we’re all in the same boat. Many of us will lose our healthcare coverage. I’m afraid I will no longer be able to afford healthcare. And the newly discovered “marriage penalty” in the law (Google it) could sink us if we have to resort to ObamaCare for our insurance. At one of the shakiest times in America, where families are struggling as they haven’t been since the Great Depression, I’m truly afraid for our country once ObamaCare kicks in.

    If you refer to new rules and regulations just in your healthcare system, then we need to be in special prayer for you and the members of your family that a suitable alternative is found — and soon.

    So, our prayers can be for America at large and/or for you in particular.

    Healthcare is not something to be trifled with. So I know the situation you’re in.

    Prayers for you and yours!

  88. remarutho says:

    Dear Pooh —

    I have been concerned about some of the insurance exclusions that will be applied to existing policies under the national universal health care rules.

    Prayers going up over here. It may be you can find an ins. program on one of the exchanges that will cover the exclusions you are struggling with.

    Yours,
    Maru

  89. bubbles says:

    Pooh,
    I am so sorry to read about this news. Know I will pray that God will meet this real need in your life and bring you comfort and peace.

    Bill,
    I think your hypothetical question is just that. Hypothetical.

    You said people don’t really worship Budda, what are they doing when I see photos of flowers, candles, incense, and food in front of a large Budda, and people standing there with folded hands, rocking back and forth, and praying? To me, that is worship.

    Yes, a Buddist temple is pagan. NOT because a man “judged” it to be, but because God says it’s so. There is one way to heaven, and that is through Jesus ONLY. He is the only way to have peace.

    Now, I would not be rude, disrespectful, or unkind to a Buddist or whoever. I think it’s okay to listen to them, show them love, but then we should share the truth in love to them.

    Whether or not we would go into a pagan temple is beside the point. We don’t have to go there to be a witness to someone of this false teaching.

  90. poohpity says:

    Bill and Steve, I think that is exactly why Mart wrote, “Could it be time for the kind of wisdom that begins with where our world, neighbors, and co-workers are —rather than where we are?” To listen to others we want to understand them and how they see the world that shows a true interest in them but if we do not even care to listen then we are only concerned with where we are and how the world revolves around “me”. I do not think that involves prejudces or hatreds towards others who do not believe as we do, bottom line is ALL sin and fall short of the Glory of God if we keep that in mind we can show grace to our nieghbors. Thay did not push Dr King away because they did not share the same faith nor did Dr King push Thay away they listened to each other with thoughtfulness, compassion and if more Christians did that then maybe more people would come to Jesus as a safe place to learn about peace and serenity, if we lived it ourselves.

  91. Artle says:

    A world without walls would be better.

  92. poohpity says:

    tracey, I will still have insurance but not the same doctor. If anyone does not have insurance they will receive a monetary penalty.

    Yes Bill prayers for our whole country under this new law. My fingers are tired from writing my Representative, Senators and the President. The congress has listened to my letters. The President’s reply was that it was just my opinion and everyone has one like elbows(lol) and his is the one that matters.(my paraphrase but his content) Can you believe that was his response to me, go figure.

  93. poohpity says:

    The people from Neveda need to flood Reid with their concerns but he probably will not listen either. So prayers may be our only hope.

  94. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… for you to say, “I do not personally care what you or anyone here does with his or her life.”

    All that blatent animosity from a man who calls another here his brother, also claims to be one who says,”Love Wins.”

    Can we who you have deceived here now pray for you?

  95. Bill says:

    It’s not animosity, Gary. And I think you know that.

    I care about all of you very much. What I do NOT care about is running your lives or telling you what to do. It’s not of my business what you do with your life. So if it’s “blatant” anything it’s “blatant” me saying I do not mean, intend, or desire to run anyone’s life.

    You have a vast knowledge of the Bible, and are passionate about serving the Lord. Don’t waste time trying to pick a fight about something like this. It’s beneath you.

  96. bubbles says:

    What I meant by ecumenicalism was the thinking of “lets all get together” regardless of our doctrinal beliefs. That is dangerous and not pleasing to God.

  97. Artle says:

    Just noticed something this morning; actually had a hint of it a while back, but was this morning when it came into focus.

    There are varying degrees or types of comments made here and I suppose elsewhere. There are thoughts, opinions, theories, conjectures and statements of fact, knowledge, faith and belief. While an opinion, a conjecture or a theory is open for debate, a person’s faith or belief is not. Faith and belief are actually inseparable from a person as they both define the person whether for better or for worse. Ground will never be gained by questioning another’s faith directly. The only way to address someone’s faith and belief is to listen and pray.

    Someone’s faith may be inadvertently questioned by another’s statement of faith and if the other one’s faith is strong, the first may grow in faith, but a direct assault will never result in growth, and if the assault is successful, the result will be diminished faith.

  98. SFDBWV says:

    Bill I sense you may be having a bad day, so I’m not going to say a great deal more.

    Max Lucado also wrote a book “It’s not about me”.

    Once again I apologize if you think my responses to you are sarcasm, they are only met to explain and inform.

    Phil Jackson practiced Zen in his coaching technique, which may have contributed to his winning record and lack of blowups on the sideline.

    Steve

  99. poohpity says:

    bubbles, I do not think God meant for us to be divided into Catholics, Baptists, etc. I think the Lord would honor us becoming unified not by denomination but by our love for Him.

  100. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill… sorry I thought you said, you do not care, meaning, you do not care.

    Now you are saying, “I care about all of you very much.”

    That to me, was a touch confusing, for now you say you do not care, or intend, or desire, to *run* anyone’s life.

    Those are much different word choices my friend, than used in your original post.

    Sorry I could not properly read your heart in those words you first used.

    Apparently, you really meant something “other than” what you first wrote.

    So forgive me for reading your words only.

    If we could only self-correct our human condition through using all these other paths you’ve helped us see, than perhaps we would not even need Christ to die on that Cross for us, having found *another way* to save ourselves.

    I’m not yet ready for that way of mindfulness, or higher learning if you will, because I’m narrow-mindedly stuck on the fundementals of Christ, as the Way.

    Gary

  101. oneg2dblu says:

    Fund “a” mentals, for those who are still stuck on using an “a” and have not moved on to the higher learning of alphebet.

  102. oneg2dblu says:

    Artle…. you are right on.
    Our opinion is open for discussion, but our Faith is not. Faith is not opinion.
    God is not swayed by man’s opinion either, but by man’s faith response, tested and proved to be His, then does God find pleasure.
    For we know that God is not pleased by those who do not have faith in Him.

    “Without faith it is impoosible to please God.”

    Today’s ODB has a bold typed ending which fits your first response about saying, “Yes,” to the invitation. To go with that friend to his place of worship and not feel threatened by it, for Our God is with us at all times, His Spirit living in us protects us from any false teaching, and we must have enough faith in Him to allow us to befriend his enemy, which we all were at one time ourselves, and bring them into His House.

    “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.”

    That is the soul purpose for our inviting and bringing others into our Houses of Worship, to have an opportunity to hear “His” word.
    Gary

  103. phpatato says:

    I wish we all were in a cozy armchair in the same room. Bill, you have much knowledge and wisdom. I would love to sit with you and just learn. Steve, you are another. I have read both your comments and subsequent comments and I see what both of you are saying. With you both, I’d literally be speechless, afraid to make a noise in case I’d miss something!!!

    If we were all in a room together, surely we’d not be too quick to be so petty as to pick apart what someone said. As in the words of Bill…that is so beneath us, isn’t it??? I will add immature and childish to that. Hopefully we’d all feel the love each of us has within us to give.

    ArtLE (thank you for pointing out the spelling of your name. The font on my monitor made it look like an “i”)…you have made a good point in your comment posted, September 28, 2013 at 2:17 pm.

    It would be so off topic for me to ask what Obamacare entails. I thought he was trying to set up a health care system similar to the one in Canada. I have tried to understand what that would mean for my American friends but I don’t understand enough of it. Deb, I will be praying for you and your health insurance problem.

    Cheryl, you are in my thoughts and prayers. A dear friend of mine has just been diagnosed with lung cancer – top left lobe of the left lung – and there are dark spots on the kidney. I gave to him, and so will give to you, this verse for comfort… Joshua 1:9 “Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”

    Huge Hugs to everyone

    Pat

  104. Artle says:

    At 2:17pm, I should probably have not lumped belief in with faith since a belief could be about anything. “I believe X burgers are better than Y burgers”. My faith though is most of who I am. I feel I would cease to exist without it.

  105. bubbles says:

    Then what do we do with false teaching that does away with Jesus’ death as the only way to Heaven? I will not pray to St. Jude or another “person” when I lose something. I will not pray to Mary for brownie points with God. This is idol worship. Mary is not an intercessor. Jesus said, “I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. NO man comes to the Father but by me.” He did not say He is A way, A truth. . . He said THE way, meaning THE ONLY WAY.

    Sure, God loves us and we love Him, but we should not work intimately with groups who have watered down the gospel by saying there are other ways to God other than Jesus, because this is false teaching clearly stated in the Word. We don’t have to be mean and hateful with other groups, but they are wrong. Paul deals with this in Galatians. There were those who were adding baptism and circumcision in order to be saved. He showed them this was not correct teaching.

    This is not ignorance. This is what Jesus said.

  106. poohpity says:

    There is false teaching about the things of God even in our homes from one generation to the next. That is why it is so very important to know God’s Word for ourselves and be tuaght from the Master devoid of denominations or authors or religions. Relying on God to tutor us because after all we are His disciples.

    All peoples are God’s children and His creation and knowing that there is nothing wrong with having compassion for our fellow man and listening.

    Pat, I lived in Canada for a while so I know about your healthcare system. It is like me putting on the Olmpics without a plan, budget, knowing all the details, long term goals or consequences or even having the time to work it all out before I decide to put it on.

  107. poohpity says:

    We are not used to our government running everything that is what our constitution was written for but at this time it is trying to. I apologize this is not the place to discuss this.

  108. bubbles says:

    That’s right. We need to show them love and respect. They will never listen to us if they do not feel we care for and about them.

    If I came across as saying it is acceptable to be condescending, I did not mean that.

  109. poohpity says:

    I know your heart so I would not have thought that of you ever. ;-)

  110. bubbles says:

    Thank you for understanding.

  111. royalpalm says:

    Hello Mart and BTA friends,

    There are many good thoughts in this topic; I admire Google’s acknowledgement of their need to infuse “human kindness” to their business and their invitation to this Buddhist monk to show them how. However this initiative does not address each person’s basic need which is to be RECONCILED WITH and have PEACE WITH GOD. Without peace with God, a person could not find peace within himself and with each other.

    Our sin brings its own consequences –fear, doubts, discontent, greed, apathy, sadness, hopelessness, etc. etc which are manifestations of spiritual death and being separated from God. Jesus Christ provided the way and those who have put their trust in the Lord and His Word experience this peace through the presence of the Holy Spirit who indwells each believer. On our own we could never live the life that is pleasing to God that is why God sent the Holy Spirit to indwell us and as long as we let Him control our lives we can live a life of kindness, righteousness, humility, service, love, patience, peace, joy, contentment, gentleness, etc.
    These are not the results of our own efforts like meditation, will power, etc. but the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

    There many worthy pursuits in life but they can be narrowed down to these: to be wise, to be rich, and to be powerful. God however, desires us to spend our time knowing Him. (Jer. 9:23,24) To truly know God and be known by Him is the greatest pursuit in life. Matt. 7: 22,23. John 17:3 Though His creation speaks of His glory, He has given us His word so we can know His thoughts and ways which are higher than ours. (Isaiah 55:8,9,10,11)

    As for Bill’s question about going to the Buddhist temple – personally I would not feel comfortable going to a place where a person (Buddha) is revered/honored more than my God and Saviour. As to sharing my faith with the Buddhist – honoring God in my heart is more important than sharing my faith, for without the first, the second is worthless. When God is honored in my heart He can use and direct me to accomplish His work His way and in His power. John 15:5,7,8,9.

    May the Lord bless each one here at BTA.I too, pray for God’s loving kindness and tender mercies for everyone esp. Cheryl, Bubbles, Pooh, Steve, Matt, Blessed. Psalm 91:1,2

  112. SFDBWV says:

    I hate it that our conversation once again became combative because of disagreements; it would seem no one is immune to such behavior.

    Looking back over Mart’s edited version of his original topic I come to a question he has left intact; “What if instead we honored the wisdom of this elder…”

    I have to wonder about the *wisdom* of an 87 year old man who has chosen *not* to follow Jesus, but rather to follow Buddha.

    The forbidden fruit also looked good, but taking it in caused all of the world’s woes.

    One of the signs of the times Jesus warned us about is that there would be false Messiah’s and people would be pointing to them and saying *he* is there or there but they are all false do not be deceived.

    I can bring the message of the Gospel, but only a receptive heart will receive the message, I have to question a heart that won’t receive Christ.

    Steve

  113. saled says:

    I have a Buddhist friend who moved to my community 20 plus years ago. She didn’t look much different than the rest of us who were born and grew up here, except that she lived more simply and had more time to spend with the sick and elderly. It was a relationship with a local boy that brought her into our lives. He died 15 years ago, but she has chosen to stay. My daughter took sewing lessons from her for a few years, and as their relationship developed, we learned the story of her choice to be Buddhist.

    She was born into a great Christian family. We met her parents and brother, all very conservative Christian. I’m guessing that their choice would have been to have her remain Christian. Their ‘mistake’ was sending her to a big name secular collage, where she learned about different beliefs.

    My husband didn’t attend college, but he did attend a Christian school from grade 6 to high school graduation. When I met him, I was impressed that his education was basically as good as mine although I had attended college. However, he is currently questioning his faith due to the fact that his Christian school didn’t teach him about the Bible. Oh, they taught the Bible as a class, but they didn’t teach him ABOUT the Bible. Secular colleges are blamed for taking away the faith of young Christians, but maybe the blame should be placed on our failure to teach that the evidence for our own Christian faith is not as cut and dried as we try to make it.

  114. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    It seems to me the interest of Western competitive-model organization has long been fascinated by Eastern collective-effort ways.

    Mart, you ask:

    “Do we need to begin the conversation with our conviction that Jesus is the only ultimate source of wisdom in this life and the next, or start with the assumption that people will hate us for trying to bring Jesus into their lives?”

    RoyalPalm, it seems to me your observation on poor education about the Bible, and your personal heartache with your husband’s struggle with Scripture after so many years, are at the heart of the world’s contempt for Christians’ ways of sharing their faith. The Bible, written at many different times of history — in many different genres (history, prophecy, poetry) — cannot be dragged into modern thinking without any consideration of the ancient societies it comes from.

    I recall a time about eighteen years ago when my entire concept of what the Bible is — a monolith of God’s holy Word — more or less “fell apart” in my hands. As I studied more and more carefully the different books of the Bible, I realized that

  115. remarutho says:

    it demands much more of its reader than many of us are willing to sacrifice to it — close reading, historical study, attention to archaeological discovery…on and on.

    It has taken me some time, thought and effort to “put it back together.” Will never be a full-out whole Bible scholar. Life is too short.

    Blessings,
    Maru

    PS Sorry, paused the curser over “submit” and it took off!

  116. remarutho says:

    PPS In my humble opinion, even the most learned Bible scholar cannot claim to be offering a locked-down, pure and unbiased reading of Scripture! Such a thing is impossible.

    It seems to me our highest hope is to prayerfully read God’s Word to know God better and to express utter gratitude for the coming of Christ — the Word made flesh. (John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5) Our overriding outward expression of God is love, not judgment.

    Maru

    Cursor, nor curser. :o)

  117. remarutho says:

    So sorry, Saled and Royal — got your names mixed up when I was reflecting — Maru.

  118. SFDBWV says:

    The public ministry of Jesus, his healings, his feeding the multitudes caused throngs of people to follow along with Him.

    He said He had to get away from them because if for no other reason they would tag along just to be fed.

    God removed the manna once the Israelites came to the Promised Land.

    God didn’t abandon them, but ordered them to take charge of their lives and live the moral live he had laid out for them.

    Jesus didn’t abandon the multitude either, rather He sent His Spirit to dwell with them forever. But we also are to take charge of our lives, not sit and expect to be fed without some effort on our part.

    Everyone questions their faith at some point in their lives; it was questioned in the garden, it was questioned during 400 years of slavery to the Egyptians, it was questioned during the captivity, it is and forever will be questioned and tested until its purpose is fulfilled.

    When we question our faith, we tend to be strengthened by what we discover, the danger is when we look away from Jesus to the world for answers, the comfort is seen in the story of the Prodigal Son and how the Father is awaiting our return eager and willing to forgive and return us to our place with Him.

    The wayward son in the story also thought he could be satisfied with what the world offered only to find himself starving for lack of true spiritual nourishment.

    That nourishment is not found in Buddha or in any other form or under any other name except from God the Father through Jesus of Nazareth.

    This is a truth I learned from my Christian Bible, not from setting at the feet of a false messiah and lapping up his worldly wisdom as if it were real food.

    Steve

  119. poohpity says:

    Self destruction and blind comsumption as in sustainability we have to remember how many Christians live in the USA. At this time for every 21 cents brought in, $3.50 goes out; there are more unemployed than the population combined of Canada and the UK, the average work week is 31.5 hours and God has been taken out of schools and most public arenas. So maybe if it takes Thay to open eyes because we have failed to live what we are tuaght and be a witnesses to our faith, if God can use a donkey to get His word out then maybe using Thay is needed.

  120. poohpity says:

    I have never met a Buddist that was not humble, who started word battles, who put others down so they can feel superior nor have a exclusive body where others are made to feel unwelcome because they did not fit because they were different.

  121. Artle says:

    Pooh, I smile at your donkey connection. It was perfect timing for this question: What do we do with great people of history who fit (Galatians 5:14 NASB) and/or (Galatians 6:2 NASB), but do not publicly accept Jesus? Are they part of God’s plan or not?

  122. Bill says:

    Amen, Pooh. Especially Buddhists from Vietnam, Thailand, and a few other Asian countries. They are some of the sweetest, most humble and loving people I’ve ever met. They put most Christians I know (including me) to shame.

    Here’s a sad fact, though: Many of the American Buddhists I know are just as arrogant, argumentative, and prideful as some people from Christian denominations.

    Conclusion: Americans have a LOT of pride and superiority as a general rule. They attempt to justify it by couching it in pious language and demands for holiness. It makes me sick.

    With a few exceptions, I trust Buddhists far more than I trust Christians. Buddhists are not known for stabbing each other in the back.

    Pooh is right…and extremely wise.

  123. royalpalm says:

    Mart you said, “Do we need to begin the conversation with our conviction that Jesus is the only ultimate source of wisdom in this life and the next, or start with the assumption that people will hate us for trying to bring Jesus into their lives? Could it be time for the kind of wisdom that begins with where our world, neighbors, and co-workers are —rather than where we are?”

    As Solomon said, there is a proper time for everything. It starts with ourselves and our relationship with God and then with others.

    The sower in Jesus’ parable did not go out to sow his precious seeds in the hard, stony,, or thorny ground but in the good soil which he took time to prepare with hard work. The same with the word of God we need to cultivate and soften the hard hearts of people with our kindness, service, frienship and love before we sow His precious Word. When the ground is prepared the seed will grow and produce a harvest of good deeds that will bring glory to God.

    Bill, I take note of your comment “ As soon as we open our mouths and say “Jesus is the only way to…” we immediately divide people. We erect walls.” September 26, 2013 at 7:51 am These are God’s Words and how people react is their choice. The Bible teaches us that the ONLY WAY ACCEPTABLE to GOD is HIS OWN WAY. God did not give man the freedom to choose what he thinks best. There was only one door to the Ark during Noah’s time. God decreed that Only the High Priest can approach Him through the Holy of Holies; only through the blood of the unblemished lamb/animals can sin be atoned for; Jesus is the only way, He is the only source of truth, and the only way to life. John 14:6 These are not my words, nor any person’s words but God’s words.

    God has confirmed that to those who are being saved the message of the Gospel is a sweet aroma that leads to life but for those who are perishing it will produce anger and hatred because it brings the smell of death that leads to death. 2 Corinthians 2:15-17 Christ died for everyone but not everyone will receive that gift. The gospel will divide people for to follow Jesus is to forsake the world and its ways. 1 John 2:15,16 Persecution and hatred will be part of a follower of Jesus’ life.

    Saled, I too know of people who turned away from their faith and it brings much sadness to me. Nevertheless I continue to commit them to the Lord who never stops loving them – that their heart will be softened so the word of God that had been planted there will grow. Isa. 55:11

    Maru, knowing God and His word takes time and effort but most of all personal desire. As you said we need to know the time, place, customs, history of the Bible to have a better understanding of its message. It also requires a humble and a teachable heart for this is God’s Word and only He can impart its truth. My own knowledge of the Bible comes from a desire to know more of God so I can honor Him and I want to share His word with others. Church service is good but never enough (2 hrs/Sunday x 52 weeks = 104 hrs- equivalent to less than 5 days out of 1 year) Even our own personal relationship with people will not progress much if we devote only 5 days out of 365 to that person.

  124. poohpity says:

    royal, true that and when people see in our lives something that is content, peace loving, compassionate and serene they will ask, “what is it that you have, I want some?” then the door is open to share the reason for our faith. I guess we have to ask ourselves how many have asked us? If none then maybe we need to take a closer look at how much of us God really has.

  125. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… sorry to carry this thread to bear upon you,
    but you have a voice in you that tells you which way to go, and not go.
    You respect, honor, and listen to that voice above all others.
    So, in that light, you know your place is not to be found in any Buddist place of worship for a reason, which you have adequately described, and that makes perfect sense to me.
    For what is it worth, you also have made the right choice.
    There has never been a voice in me that says I neeed to study any other religions or be exposed to further open myself beyond where my internal spiritual voice directs me to go.
    It says If remain in ME, then, I will remain in you.

    That being said, I may well go to another’s place of worship, but, if that voice says it is time to leave,
    I leave.
    Gary

  126. royalpalm says:

    Pooh, how true – when our hearts are right with God He Himself will live His own life in our lives – a life that is pleasing to God and man.

    That is why I personally believe that it is important to praise God in every circumstance, to commit to Him our every moment and situation and to thank Him for who He is. His way is perfect and His words are sure. Psalm 18:30 We are just aliens in this world – let us keep our eyes and hopes focused on the author and finisher of our faith while giving our testimony of His mercy and grace through our good works towards others. Eph. 2:8,9,10.

  127. belleu says:

    I do believe Jesus is the only way to eternal life and salvation. However, a man like Socrates, who had never heard of Israel’s God followed the light from God as far as he could see. He believed there was one God – he just didn’t know who he was. I would suppose he will be saved.

    If a person is born in an Islamic land and has never heard or read the gospel, then I think if he follows the light of the Holy Spirit in his life – he will be saved. He will be saved through Jesus’ death even though he knows nothing about it.

    I read of a Chinese man whose father had told him there was something more in his spirit and one day his son would know who that was. The son found out about Jesus later in his life and knew it was Jesus his father was talking about. He became a Christian and I’m sure his father was saved also.

    When we say to people, “Jesus is the only way,” are we saying there is no hope for those who have been raised as Hindu, Buhddist, Shinto etc. Are there none among all these millions of people whom the Holy Spirit has not moved upon? John 1:9 says, “There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.”

    If I had been raised a Muslim, I would probably stay a Muslim, but hopefully I would take what is beautiful and good from that religion and pray to Allah for wisdom and goodness. Then if someone showed me about Jesus, perhaps I could hear that message. Imagine yourself being born Muslim. Do you think God could save your soul anyway if you were sincere in your beliefs?

  128. poohpity says:

    belleu, when you read Socrates I think you will find that some of those writings are similar to the prophet Isaiah and his writings. Isaiah come 200 years before Socrates so I am thinking it may have influenced him in some way if I believe God’s Word played an influence even then.

  129. poohpity says:

    I have also found that because all God’s ways are beyond anything I can imagine or even think I know but I believe what the Bible teaches in John 3:16-17.

  130. oneg2dblu says:

    belleu… this is not given to belittle any of your thoughts, but to express mine.

    I believe what the bible says, “If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, then you will be saved.”

    It does not say, If you believe differently and have never heard the gospel, then you are living in darkness, and not if you living in darkness follow the light of Holy Spirit…you will also be saved.

    Then you are in essence saying, that all people already have the Holy Spirit’s light in them to follow, so they are not living in darkness as the bible says they are, or like “we were” before our hearing and believing.

    That is not part of the Gospel message, or we would not have any need of the giving by Christ, the Great Commission, which says we who are saved are the light of the world, and we are to go and bring that light, that saving gospel message to all nations, because one must hear and believe it to be saved.

    That is what the bible teaches.

    But, your position sounds like such a right and loving one to hold dearly, lovingly embracing all others regardless of their beliefs, holding them to another standard that did not apply to you.

    I think we would be much safer to believe only the gospel as written, and leave our wishful thinking and loving intentions to the rest of the world, who do not yet know Christ as their One and Only Lord and Savior, and are living in the darkness until they do.

    I know this sounds so harsh, but it is the written truth according to the Word of God, which should be our only standard.

    We can not ignore and replace words, like the *should* and *might* which are used in the verse pooh has given us, and but our own loving conjecture in there, even if it feels right to think that all the others in the world WILL be saved, it still is not what the word says.

    To me, the truth found the Great Commission stands against such thinking.

    Gary

  131. royalpalm says:

    Dear Belleu, I too was thinking about your post and these are my thoughts…

    God’s word emphatically states that there is only one mediator to God – Jesus Christ 1 Tim. 2:5 He is the only way to the Father (John 14:6)and there is no other name given under heaven by which one can be saved except Jesus (Acts 4:12)

    When Jesus ascended to heaven He sent the Holy Spirit : “ And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.” John 16:8-11

    As Jesus said everyone in the world will receive conviction from the Holy Spirit and how a person responds to the conviction will determine his eternal destiny. I believe that for those who will respond with a desire to know God and how to be right with Him and who seek Him in faith – God will find a way for him to know about Jesus. This happened to Cornelius, a Gentile (Roman) who was “a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. Romans 10:1,2.

    Yet, despite his devotion to God, he needed the saving power of the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of his sins. God honored his faith by sending Peter who declared, “To Him (Jesus) all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.” Acts. 10:42,43, 47.
    This was also true for the Ethiopian eunuch who worshiped God and was seeking the Scriptures about Him. His devotion was not enough – God honored his faith by sending Phillip so he can hear the message of the gospel. Acts 8:27,28, 35,36,37.

    In view of these 2 examples, I believe that anybody right now who is seeking to know God with all his heart will find Him. God will honor his faith by sending someone or something (a gospel literature, a radio broadcast, a person, etc.) that will enable him to hear the message about Jesus. God keeps His own word – no one can come to the Him except through Jesus.

    How about those who were born before Jesus – like Socrates? God has always spoken through His creation Psalm 19:1,2,3,4. How people respond to Him will be the basis of His judgment. Some have used Luke 12:47, 48 to say that the amount of revelation one receives from God will determine the severity of his punishment. Because believers are exempted from the wrath of God ( 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10) this judgment is only for non-believers. Nevertheless it is not for us to make conjectures.

    We know that God is holy and all knowing. He is loving, merciful and gracious. He did everything for us. All we need to do is believe in faith what He did. When judgment day comes our Saviour will be the Judge. Acts 10:42 Acts 17:31 We can be confident that all His judgments are holy, perfect and righteous, now and in the future.

  132. belleu says:

    It doesn’t sound harsh. I know that is what most Christians believe. I do not by any means think all will be saved. I think all who listen to the Holy Spirit’s promptings and follow them as far as they can will be saved. I believe God is love and loves everyone and judges them according to the light they receive from God. This is shown in these verses:

    “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.), but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.” Romans 13-15

  133. royalpalm says:

    Oops. Sorry, the account of Cornelius is in Acts 10:1,2 not Romans.

  134. belleu says:

    I’m sorry, I left a verse out. and didn’t give the chapter. It is found in Romans 2. Here is the verse I left out: “Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.”

  135. Artle says:

    Not trying to rock anybody’s boat, just pointing out that there really are not that many absolutes when it comes to a God as patient as the One who puts up with the creature known as man.

    There is solid evidence in our possession that a person can be saved without confessing or believing first.

    His name is Paul.

    Did Jesus see some glimmer of hope in Saul’s heart, or was He simply saving the person who hated Him the most to make a point.

  136. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    Mart, you ask:

    “What if more followers of Christ were known for the kind of thoughtfulness, compassion, courage and wisdom that come from him (James 3:15-17)?”

    It seems to me it would be a new day in the public forum if the elderly Zen master’s attributes were shown forth by prominent Christians and unknown, anonymous Christians alike.

    Where is it written that this man cannot be a minister of God’s grace? Recall that it was the Samaritan who pulled the naked and bleeding Jew out of the ditch where he was left for dead, (Luke 10:33) after his own fellow countrymen walked by unwilling to help.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  137. foreverblessed says:

    Good morning everyone, have been doing things, not too busy, but no time to sit behind a computer and type a comment.
    I like it what Bellue says, and indeed Gary, that is not the Gospel, the Gospel is the good news,
    Good News that God loves us, and has done and does everything in His power to show that.
    But we can think that in ourselves can’t we? It is not the Gospel that we preach.
    Does any one of you know about Sadu Sundar Singh? He was a hindu man born to be a sadu, he was getting depressed, and was thinking things like this: here I do all these hindu rituals, or Brahman rituals, and I have all these wise sayings of the great teachers, but my heart is still miserable. Who can help me?
    He had been in a christian school for a while, but got very antagonistic to the faith.
    But he got so desperate, he was going to make an end to his life, and than that night Jesus appeared to Him:
    just like He did to Paul: I am Jesus, the one who died for your sins, but as the sadu said, His face was so lovely, so immensely full of burning love for him that he was encaptures by this Great Love.
    ANd there he became a christian.
    You can read about him, he is very good in asking question to all these eastern religious people.
    It goes like this: If the stomach is hungry it needs food, if the heart is hungry it need spiritual food, and that is Jesus, the bread from heaven. It does not help to starve the body to death, neither does it help to starve to heart to death: telling that you should not be burning with desire, a desire of the heart to be stilled, and loved.
    God gave us that desire in our hearts, and He gave the way to fill it: the Bread from heaven: Jesus.

  138. foreverblessed says:

    I mean to say, we can think in ourselves, that if a person has led a good life, has been helping people, loke the samaritan, he did a christian thing while not being a christian, that when that person dies, he will come in the spirit world, and there the angels divide the good from the bad. Matthew 13:37-43 And the good will have a chance to accept Christ, Jesus will appear to them I believe He will, as it is said in Revelation 20:12-13
    compare this with Matthew 25:31-46
    Anyway, that is not the gospel that we preach to the unbelieving, but we can discuss it amongst ourselves.

  139. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… good thoughts all around.
    I have been taught that it is not good people who go to heaven, only forgiven people go there.
    Acording to scripture there is none good enough, all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

    Romans 3:23 and Romans 8:23 pretty well covers most of us, and John 1:12 gives us some bearing on what is “required” for our grafting into the family.
    I find the actual words very comforting to my legalistic bent.
    Gary

  140. belleu says:

    Hi Everyone. Forever Blessed is right – good thoughts all around.
    Gary is right, none of us are good enough and none of us can be saved by our works. I guess what I was getting at is that the Holy Spirit – who is God – can work on people’s hearts and change them and make them good. They may never hear the gospel from humans, but God can teach them if they let him.

    I think our conscience is from God and as Paul says, it will either excuse us or condemn us on the day of Judgement. I remember reading that on the walls of the Egyptian Pharaohs is written all the good deeds the King did during his life. He helped the poor etc. So, the ancient Egyptians knew what was right and wrong. Most of them probably didn’t do right, but they knew what it was. I believe the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world of right and wrong.

Leave a Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.