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Persecution Complex

DSCN5278In general usage the idea of a persecution complex refers to an unhealthy state of mind that causes persons or groups to assume that they are the victims of an evil conspiracy that has singled them out because they are different than the mainstream.

The term therefore is apt to cause many of us to feel uncomfortable.  To the extent that we believe that our world hates us for Christ’s sake, we are likely to resent the suggestion that it us “unhealthy” for us  to think that we are being singled out and targeted for the same reasons that he was. Many of us know that it was Jesus himself who said we should not be surprised to find that the world that hated him cannot help but hate those who follow him (John 15:18-19).

Prior to that the Teacher made a revealing comment to his own family members who didn’t believe in him, and actually thought that he was mentally unstable (John 7:3-7).

But with this much said, a question lingers. Why then did Jesus have a reputation for being a friend of sinners, while being hated by so many leaders of the synagogues and experts in the law of Moses? What was “the world” that hated Jesus? And why?

Am guessing this is the kind of question that can be best answered by trying to think through it together. While being resented or rejected for the sake of Christ would be honorable, we need to make sure we are making progress in knowing the difference between suffering “for Christ’s sake” rather than for our own mistakes and resulting persecution complex.


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95 Responses to “Persecution Complex”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    1 John 2:18 tells us that there are many *anti-christs* and 1 John 2:22 tells me that liars deny that Jesus is the Christ and he is an anti-christ who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 4:3 states that *every* spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ is not come in the flesh is not of God and that spirit is the spirit of the anti-christ.

    1 John 4:4 and 1 John 4:5 states we are of God and have overcome the world because of Jesus who is in us. 1 John 4:6 states that those who are of God recognize each other, but those of the world do not recognize the Holy Spirit because they listen to a different spirit.

    Anti of course means against, the opposite or opposing; so an anti-christ spirit is one that looks for and finds contention with Christ and His believers.

    Most people or as Mart has chose to call them *sinners*, are not really religious. They don’t care about the arguments between religions because they mostly are concerned with the day to day activities of finding satisfaction for themselves.

    They aren’t offended when a Jehovah’s Witness shows up at the door they just either don’t answer the door or smile take the pamphlet and say good day.

    However there is great emotional disagreement between the religions of the *world*, enough to go to war over. In this arena of *believers* there is enough hatred to produce attention from the masses who don’t *believe* in much more that being fed today.

    There is an old wayward truth that says people resent winners. At first they say hurray, good job, but secretly or not soon after they begin to resent that person for their success; this is the same attitude or spirit Cain had concerning Abel.

    Paul lined out the spirit of the world in Galatians 5:19, 20, 21; the flesh or the world behaves in this anti-christ spirit. Whereas the Spirit of God which is Jesus produces a very different attitude in people who posses Him as Paul also explains in Galatians 5:22, 23.

    The world resents that attitude and the success that it brings and so comes against it from every side.

    In essence, because we are confessing Christians we have a world of people who either join us or hate us or are indifferent.

    The Spirit in us *convicts* them of the spirit in them, and so they retaliate by resentment that leads to hatred.

    Steve

  2. Bill says:

    Another wonderful blog post, Mart!

    In my experience, Christians like to say they are being persecuted nearly as often as they change their underwear. Usually, it’s Satan after them. Sometimes, it’s “the world” that hates them.

    Yet, if these folks weren’t so busy being abject weenies I’m quite sure “the world” would think them fine. And as far as Satan goes, I think he’s got more important people to harass.

    Your questions:

    * Why then did Jesus have a reputation for being a friend of sinners, while being hated by so many leaders of the synagogues and experts in the law of Moses? What was “the world” that hated Jesus? And why? *

    I’ll answer in reverse order.

    1. “The world” was, primarily, the establishment. The order of things. The norm. How things were. Part of that was political. Part of it was religious. Part of it was social.

    Jesus was tolerant of politicians (“Render unto Caesar…”), he was intolerant of religiosity (overturning the tables of the moneychangers). He did things against the norm (healing on the Sabbath — even healing, figuratively and literally, some of the more undesirable members of society…like lepers and prostitutes).

    In short, if Jesus were around today (in the flesh), he’d be considered an iconoclast, a rebel, a troublemaker. He’d likely be in jail, as was Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. He’d be tazered, cuffed, roughed up, and thrown in jail.

    Why? Because he wouldn’t stand for government red tape, for society’s apathy — especially regarding feeding the hungry, preventing war, or tolerating government or religious corruption, or for abiding by norms that are counter intuitive or just plain stupid.

    In response to that, he wouldn’t wring his hands or sit around waiting for a quorum. He’d just do something about it. He’d feed. He’d clothe. He’d tell the churches that they’ve given over the job of being salt and light to government, thereby rendering themselves powerless and useless in society.

    But he’d do all that calmly, without fanfare, violence, or threat. He’d simply DO.

    “The world” is the same today as it was in Jesus’ day. It is just as corrupt politically, just as haughty and shallow religiously, and just as apathetic and tolerant-of-the-intolerable socially.

    2. That’s why Jesus was “…a friend of sinners, while being hated by so many leaders of the synagogues and experts in the law of Moses…” He broke society’s norms, did what needed to be done, went where he was needed, avoided where he wasn’t wanted.

    Christians are being persecuted in the Middle East every single day. They’re losing their heads — literally. Their churches are burned. Their wives and daughters are raped and/or beaten. That’s real persecution.

    Here, in the States, Christians serve scones and coffee in the narthex, climb into their Lexus SUVs, drive off to their $1.3 million mansions in the suburbs, and attend their high-school daughter’s Mozart recital later in the afternoon.

    Persecution is coming to the United States. Major persecution. From our own government. And from forces of society that have grown to despise our hypocrisy, greed, and narrow mindedness. Our days of comfort and laziness are drawing to an end.

    But the looming persecution is not because we’re following in Jesus’ footsteps; rather, it’s because we’ve followed in “the world’s” footsteps. We’ve become, as a people, the same folks that Jesus ticked off 2,000 years ago. Our Christian faith and the world’s values appear the same now.

    That’s why people (especially Christians) look aghast at those who actually DO what Jesus did — spend time in the inner cities, feed people (despite not having a government “permit” to do so), raise their voices against war and death, hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors, party with those who party (for example: the celebration at which he turned water into wine), talk about love and forgiveness, etc.

    I like to say that Jesus didn’t preach the gospel. He WAS the gospel. He didn’t preach the truth. He WAS the truth. He didn’t talk about love. He WAS love. Jesus was showing us in word and deed what we are supposed to do every single day of our lives.

    If we did that, we most definitely be persecuted. We’d become the friend of sinners…and the enemy of the religious. We’d become the salt and light…and the enemy of government which believes IT has that responsibility now.

    I’ve rambled long enough.

    I appreciate this question, Mart. I appreciate everyone’s patience reading my response.

    Much love to all.

    Bill

  3. BruceC says:

    We also find in the world the conflict of grace versus works. People like to think they are basically good and do not like being told differently, which is what the Word of God says. Many who are “religious” think they can earn their way to heaven by “doing good” or following the Law. And as Steve said there are those who decide to live in ignorance; not wanting to hear the Truth; making up their own beliefs as they go through life either by whim or fantasy. Some of these think ALL will go to heaven and that there is no hell.
    Satan has deceived many and through various means but all with the same goal.
    If we are in Christ and stand for what is right then others may see the light of Christ shine upon their lives and reject it and us; or hopefully they will see their need of Christ also.
    It is the Light that exposes the evil in all humanity and it is pride that makes them rebel and reject Him and in so doing us.

    Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  4. BruceC says:

    “Here, in the States, Christians serve scones and coffee in the narthex, climb into their Lexus SUVs, drive off to their $1.3 million mansions in the suburbs, and attend their high-school daughter’s Mozart recital later in the afternoon.”

    While the “church” does have its problems; I would say that that is a rather broad brush. I know very few believers that fit that mold. The problem I see is a “cooling down” of love.

    ” That’s why people (especially Christians) look aghast at those who actually DO what Jesus did — spend time in the inner cities, feed people (despite not having a government “permit” to do so), raise their voices against war and death, hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors, party with those who party (for example: the celebration at which he turned water into wine), talk about love and forgiveness, etc.”

    Another rather broad brush. I know of many that support and work in these ministries, etc, etc.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  5. Bill says:

    @Bruce, here in West Michigan the “brush” I used was alarmingly accurate. I can think of many, many churches here that fit my description.

    Of course, it’s not the norm. Of course, there are exceptions to the pictures I painted.

    But I was trying to make a point…one I think you missed. I apologize for using less precise words.

    Our “persecution” in America is minor to non existent compared to that occurring daily in other parts of the world. Here in the States, we live in comfort, enjoying an easy, high quality of life.

    While you may know people that support work in the ministries I mentioned, or you may know Christians who are not affluent, your personal experience represents the exception, not the rule. America is the most affluent nation on earth. Not all are millionaires driving Lexus SUVs. But, to the rest of the world just trying to find clean water or their next meal, that’s how it seems in their eyes. They see us as incredibly wealthy.

    I do not believe what you wrote in your first post today (October 2, 2013 at 7:10 am):

    “If we are in Christ and stand for what is right then others may see the light of Christ shine upon their lives and reject it and us; or hopefully they will see their need of Christ also.

    “It is the Light that exposes the evil in all humanity and it is pride that makes them rebel and reject Him and in so doing us.”

    I think that’s what Christians like to tell each other to make themselves feel superior. Or to placate their consciences.

    I have been a Christian for over 30 years. I have been involved with churches of all kinds — from Presbyterian to Charismatic, from non-denominational to Baptist — in three to four different states. In all that time, I can count on one hand the believers around me who were shining the light of Christ on anything, let alone society.

    I HAVE, however, seen Christians who, as you wrote,

    *…think they can earn their way to heaven by “doing good” or following the Law. And as Steve said there are those who decide to live in ignorance; not wanting to hear the Truth; making up their own beliefs as they go through life either by whim or fantasy. Some of these think ALL will go to heaven and that there is no hell.*

    That’s because that’s the norm. That’s what human beings do. Every Christian believes something a little different from another. And every denomination most assuredly believes something different from another. I know very, very committed Christians who believe in Universalism. I know very, very committed Christians who believe in Calvinism. I know very, very committed Christians who believe in salvation by works (even though that’s not how they’d put it).

    I know Christians who believe a great many things.

    But what I haven’t known too many of are Christians who are Jesus-like.

    Until we see a lot more Jesus-like Christians, we will not truly know persecution. And any problems with “the world” we face — especially in the States — are because IN GENERAL we’re shallow, hypocritical creatures of comfort. That’s why “the world” hates us. If we were like Jesus, the sinners and downtrodden and outcasts would welcome us with open arms, just as they did Jesus.

    So I don’t think it’s a our holiness or piety that gets a rise out of the world. Just the opposite.

  6. SFDBWV says:

    What a jump from being *accused* of feeling superior to being *accused* of harboring a persecution complex that is falsely based.

    If we believe Paul, *all* fall short of obtaining that perfected Christian being.

    Which is better a person who sets out the race or the one who gets up and tries?

    Which is worse the behavior of a person who criticizes another’s attempts or the accusations of a person who doesn’t recognize their own reflection in their criticism?

    I get it that there are many areas in the body of Christ that need healing; the very fact that there is a Catholic and Protestant Christian division reflects that those who protested the actions of the church created their own church.

    That under that same division of protesters there seems to be no end of dividing into more and more groups who don’t agree with the other.

    This is what that style of individual thinking produces, opinions and judgments.

    The end result being that in continually judging the actions of other Christians you find yourself with no fellowship at all except that of being alone content with only your own self satisfied thoughts.

    Whereas it is very Scriptural to point out backsliding or non Christ like behavior between Christians, blank accusations of entire groups of people is very un-Christlike behavior and a form of persecution of its own.

    Steve

  7. BruceC says:

    Bill,

    If you can count on one hand the number of Christians shining the light of Christ around you then maybe it would be time to open the eyes a little more. If you expect to find perfect churches and Christians you won’t. Perhaps your eye is too critical. Just saying.
    Just my thoughts.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  8. swwagner says:

    hmmm….great topic. To me persecution complex is another word for pity party pessimism…everyone is out to get me…everything bad happens to me. I know Christians and non-Christians who fall into this category. What a wasted and self centered life.

    One person actually became angry when I talked about God blessing me…they said, “God did not bless you, Someone provides for your needs with hard-earned cash. God had nothing to do with it.” After a stunned silence, I said, “It is true that I receive monetary support through another person, but they do not make the air, or the sunshine, or living things…they do not provide salvation for my soul.” Of course, my reply fell on deaf ears.

    “The world” is an attitude and mindset that is against God. Of course, people are the ones that have the attitudes and mindsets so that means there are people who are against God. Even so, Jesus prayed for their forgiveness “because they know not what they do.”
    Are we not called upon to do the same? Pray for our enemies and the lost.

    How glad I am that someone prayed for me in my lost condition. Even though I resisted the Holy Spirit and was unhappy with the persistent gouges of the gospel, I am so glad that some one endured my rejection and didn’t give up on me. Finally, Christ became my very own savior…what a day of rejoicing!

    My prayer is to follow the example of Jesus…to be common and yet apart. To have an attitude of hope and thankfulness, to be an encouragement while gently pointing to the need of salvation. The gospel is a two-edged sword..it causes pain, but that pain is priceless in the long run.

  9. poohpity says:

    #1 Why then did Jesus have a reputation for being a friend of sinners, while being hated by so many leaders of the synagogues and experts in the law of Moses? It seems because of Jesus hanging around with what the religious community/religlose/pious thought as unacceptable but Jesus knew they are the ones that needed Him. Those who practiced excessive religious piety felt they were better than others and therefore looked down on the very ones who knew they needed to experience forgiveness, mercy and grace. They depended on their external representation and noterity to hold high positions and acclaim rather than on their spiritual bankruptcy. Jesus was persecuted by them because He confronted their spiritual need and that they weren’t all that because while they looked good on the outside their insides were filthy.

    #2 What was “the world” that hated Jesus? And why? It would seem the world that hated Jesus were those who depended on self rather than on God. Those who sought after things in this present life for fulfillment, self worth, contentment, pleasure, boasting in what one has and does and living for their own will. Why does that kind of living hate Jesus because He called us to put aside the natural for a supernatural existence dependent on God, His will for our own, elevating Him above ourselves, seeking to know Him and allowing Him to change us, putting Him first above anyone or anything. The world hates to come to terms with the true state of their humanity and Jesus opens our eyes and ears to the ugly reality that is hiding inside. Truth most can not handle the truth so they reject Jesus because He brings to light what many would like to hide but loves us in spite of and accepts the unacceptable because they see their need.

    Are we persecuted because of religious piety and hyprocisy because we try and look good on the outside while our hearts are such a mess and we do not share that part? Or are we mocked and made fun of because we trust and depend on the unseen, risen Savior and point people to Him rather than on how spiritfilled and holy we think we are?

  10. fadingman says:

    “In general usage the idea of a persecution complex refers to an unhealthy state of mind that causes persons or groups to assume that they are the victims of an evil conspiracy that has singled them out because they are different than the mainstream.”

    This is a good definition, but it is missing one thing. Yet even though Jesus recognized the world was against Him, He didn’t have a persecution complex.

    I think a persecution complex could be defined as a form of paranoia (…even if they really *are* out to get you!), and Jesus was not paranoid. So I would add one more element to the definition Mart gave: Fear.

    Whether it is expressed or not, those who have a persecution complex are afraid for their future. Jesus told us we would be persecuted, but He never told us to be afraid. Quite the opposite, He said, “Don’t be afraid.” (Matthew 24:6,9, 1 Peter 3:14-15) Our future is secure. As Christians, being aware of persecution heading our way only becomes a complex if we let fear take over or we become preoccupied with it.

    “Why then did Jesus have a reputation for being a friend of sinners, while being hated by so many leaders of the synagogues and experts in the law of Moses? What was “the world” that hated Jesus? And why?”

    The world of humanity consists only of sinners. The self-righteous religious leaders were just as much in this condition as the tax-collectors and prostitutes. Jesus was a friend to those who recognized their condition and wanted a way out. But those who didn’t see themselves in the same boat wanted a Savior for those who deserved saving (like themselves), instead of one who rescued those who didn’t deserve it. They saw Jesus being a friend of the wrong kinds of people. The world consists of those with the “we don’t want/need Jesus” mindset.

    Andrew

  11. Artle says:

    This may sound unsound, but I don’t think persecution is of any consequence to the one whose eyes are on Jesus.

    When I first read this topic, I thought of Stephen, and I imagined he did not feel persecuted. Sure, in our terms, being stoned to death is certainly persecution, but I don’t think Stephen saw it that way, because his eyes were on Jesus.

  12. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all… there is an awful lot of “spirit” in those words posted, put I would ask, Who’s spirit?

    Those who have their eyes on Jesus, certainly would perhaps turn the cheek more and bash all Chrisitians less.
    Just a thought…

    Jesus was not hated for being pious, but He did follow all the coommandments of His Father, word for word.

    He was not a fsll down drunkard, partying like the rest of them, nor did He only show His soft side in love, but, He got violent with overturning tables, and with a whip He fashioned with his hands for chasing the, ” P C business as usual crowd,” out of His Father’s House.
    So, there is some truth and some real streching to make a point effort in all of that spirited posting,

    But, to me, the posts that display the actual verses to back up their points are the ones I see as being most accurate.

    Christ wouldn’t be shooting up with the junkies, smoking herb with the pot heads, or doing shots with the any drunkards today.

    He would certainly make a stand for something though, and following the word of His Fsather, He would always continue to do, and do at all cost.

    He probably wouldn’t be marrying any gays in His Fsather’s house, even if it was the current trendy P C thing to do, in this ever darkening world of coddeling man’s selfish desires either.

    He would not break any of the Ten Commandments nor would He live under man’s latest fling that goes against such.

    He would remain pure, sinless, and fsithful, to His Fsather and not bend to the wishes of the masses who are born bent to oppose Him.
    But, if you think differently than I, then who is doing the dividing in your eyes?
    Gary

  13. oneg2dblu says:

    Sorry I’m at Panera with my small screen and lots of reflection on my screen as well. Typo’s reflect as well. :0

  14. oneg2dblu says:

    Andrew… that was huge, Thank you!
    Fear is a very valid reason why the world won’t allow themselves to change their evil ways, or become Chraitian. They fear they will lose something that is very important to them, and that very thing is what separates them from God and from seeing their condition.
    Gary

  15. oneg2dblu says:

    I do not agree with Bill’s staement about Satan having better things to do than bother Christians.
    Why, because Satan is never a bother to the worldy siiner, he is their ever pleasing friend.

    Funny how my Pastor always tells those who are called to ministry to expect greater attacks from Satan, What better victory then to stiffle any possible truth telling at the height of its calling.

    Pauls says put on the armor saily, because he knows, the battle will continue to come.

    I’m sure that Satan is threatened by every confession of faith in Christ, for that would bring about a change to every sinner who now beleives in Christ, Satan’s mortal eternal enemy.

    Whether one drives a Lexus or not, that vhas no bearing on anything other than, like all other material blessings, they are from the Lord, regardless of whether man thinks he has earned them himself or not.

    Gary

  16. belleu says:

    What was the “world” that hated Jesus? It was prideful, mostly rich, hypocritical believers in God. Why? Because Jesus was good and they were evil. Because Jesus didn’t praise them and tell them what a great job they were doing leading the church. Nope, he pointed out their mistakes and he did it with love and anger also.

    The Parisees and Saducees were full of pride as the church of Laodicea in Revelation – the last church on earth before Jesus returns.

  17. poohpity says:

    1 John 2:16 NIV The world in this verse are the same things that Satan tempted in the garden and Jesus in the wilderness. Gen 3:5-6 NIV; John 4:3-10 NIV

    1. gratifying physical desires; questioning whether God can provide or not.

    2. accumulating and craving things.

    3. boasting in one’s status or position, achievment, significance, the desire to be like God.

    One can be with sinners and not adopt the way they live which is what Jesus did. But on the other hand the religious people thought of themselves to be unclean if they even associated with them. Jesus was rejected because He did not follow all their traditions believing that is what made them clean and righteous. John 2:16-17 NIV; Matt 15:18-20 NIV; Luke 7:36-50 NIV

  18. poohpity says:

    That was not John 2:16-17 it was Mark 2:16-17 NIV, ooops

  19. poohpity says:

    If a Christian is persecuted for religious snobbery that has nothing to do with or for the sake of Jesus. That is about a person thinking they are better than another and there is nothing humble about that nor do they recognize who they are kneeling at the foot of the Cross.

  20. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    Christians in the USA are not being persecuted. Perhaps some are in some isolated cases — a caveat for abnormal settings where a few are being victimized, since I am no expert on these matters.

    My belief is that the time is coming when the “freedom from religion” movement will seek power. Mart, you depict a Lebanese crew who reenact the training and the discipline of the Roman military of ancient times (above photo). The picture is a reminder of history’s precedents where powerful position is coupled with military force. It would surely take great courage and faith for Christians to remain non-militant when we are really targeted with malice and the “law,” perverted to suit a godless ruler, as by the later 1st c. Roman emperors.

    Jesus spoke to his worldly-minded family members: “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.” (John 7:6-7)

    Will the Christians continue to speak truth to power? It seems to me it is the vital function of the community of faith to do so. Also, we cannot be too thin-skinned about insults and disbelief from those around us. See how Jesus loved his enemies!

    Maru

  21. remarutho says:

    Could not get the BTA site to load my response earlier today, so saved it to post later. Clearly, I should have updated my greeting to “Good Evening!” :o)

    Blessings,
    Maru

  22. poohpity says:

    I made another mistake that was not John 4 it was Matt 4:3-10 NIV where Satan tempted Jesus with the things of the world.

  23. foreverblessed says:

    About the persecution complex: you can be persecuted because you are very Christlike, as Bill wrote, BE as Jesus was, He was Love, He was forgiveness,
    But I think I had a persecution complex, as I grew up, being a christian who kept the Sabbath on the 7th day, and kept all the biblical Feasts (Lev 23), living in a christian rural area, where the norm was: keeping the Sunday, Christmas, Santa Claus (in our area we have Santa Claus on Dec 5th in the evening, we would not keep these feasts as they were considered pagan, from pagan origin, we would not even keep our own birthdays, as they were considered by our church as being pagan too). Did the community like us? No, we were considered outcasts. Being persecuted not because we were Christlike in our being, loving, full of grace, no persected because you keep different days as the other christians.
    (I must admit that I liked it when more and more people, workers from the middle east who were muslim, they had other religious rituals too, we were not the only ones being different. The tolerance for different religions grew, which is a good thing)
    Anyway, it was also our own mistake, we were taught that a real christian would keep the Sabbath as Jesus did. We missed the point there ourselves too. So yes, a persecution complex that was so unnecessary.
    But God was mecifull to us, as we were really earnest in seeking to do God’s will, He showed us what He really wanted:
    Col 2:16-17
    it is not in keeping of days, nor of eating certain foods. But we worship God in spirit and in truth.
    Gal 4:19 Christ formed in you.
    In us should grow the beautiful character traits Jesus had, being totally humble, full of grace, full of burning love, especially for the ones that felt lost, the sinners. Instead of focussing of keeping of the laws.
    But am I now persecuted because of these character traits? I do not think so… do I have them not enough or is this still a christian society, much more than the middle east area, and places like India, areas in Africa, where christians are really persecuted?

  24. bubbles says:

    We should remember to regularly pray for those who are persecuted in other countries.

  25. SFDBWV says:

    2000 years ago a person who chose to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Messiah, did so up against the established and entrenched religion of Moses’ Torah.

    Believers would be shunned, ostracized and even killed by their own families and tribal peoples for this choice.

    A clear and precise example of persecution.

    Subsequently as followers of Jesus included other nationalities, their choice most often collided with accepted religious beliefs or customs of their families and people as well.

    Persecution for their beliefs would follow.

    Once the Roman Empire became the Christian Empire there soon was a split and the Empire became the “Western Empire” and “Eastern Empire”, both Roman and both Christian, but both at odds with the other

    Now the idea of persecution has changed.

    One Christian faction though remaining Christian persecuted the other simply by being divided.

    The “church” persecuted any followers who did not submit to their control even unto death, especially death by being burned alive at the stake.

    The very people whom the church persecuted were professing Christians, so the explanation of being persecuted for Christ becomes fuzzy as it also become being persecuted for an individual or different Christian theology; never the less still persecution for that persons belief in Christ.

    The formation or separation from the Roman Catholic Church in the Western Empire by “protesters” became a great blood letting within the “family” of Christian believers and certainly persecution for taking sides was in place.

    The Church of England so persecuted any Christians that did not follow their authority that they began to look just like the church they had split from or worse.

    Persecuted Christians colonized the Americas and eventually established a Christian Nation where the freedom to worship God and be Christian was not to be controlled by any government.

    We as American have not been under physical persecution for being Christian because we established our nation and our culture around Christ and the freedoms to be Christian however the Spirit led.

    However that doesn’t keep one sect or faction from disagreeing with the other even behaving un-Christ like towards the other. The Church of the Latter Day Saints were so persecuted by other Christians that they sought to form their own “nation” in the western Americas, the state we now know of as Utah.

    Shall I continue?

    The point is that even if we reduce the violent nature of persecution from death to just hatred, it still is persecution if one person is hated for their own Christian belief and that hatred is acted upon in spirit or in action; even if from one Christian to another.

    I’m out of time and am exhausted; I hope you all understand that persecution in any for is still persecution and if for your beliefs in Christ, still for Christ.

    Steve

  26. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    Mart, you ask:

    “Why then did Jesus have a reputation for being a friend of sinners, while being hated by so many leaders of the synagogues and experts in the Law of Moses? What was “the world” that hated Jesus? And why?”

    It seems to me Jesus was ready and willing to be a friend to the synagogue leaders and experts in the Law. But, the white-knuckled grip these power brokers had upon the members of the Jewish society would not allow them to listen to his claims such as, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

    The priests and scribes of the day believed that they had fulfilled the Messianic prophecies – and that they alone stood between their people and the cruel oppressors who occupied Palestine. They were prevented by the blinders they wore to search again in the Scriptures for the truth. Hence, they hated Jesus because he threatened their position and prestige. It seems Jesus is always calling us to read the signs of the time – and to go with the moving of the Holy Spirit rather than our own inclinations. The Pharisees thought he was just messing everything up.

    When Jesus speaks to his own brothers & sisters, he implies that even they have only a worldly grasp of his mission. In the passage you cite, Mart, they dare Jesus to go to the festival and announce his Messiah-ship by working wonders and signs. It seems to me they challenge him to be either torn to pieces by a furious crowd, imprisoned by the temple officials or to be accepted as Lord. Their words are cynical and faithless. Jesus tells them simply that “their time is always here.” It is most poignant that he tells them, “…my time has not yet fully come.” (John 7:8) He knows that when his time does come, he will be making the ultimate sacrifice – for them and for all humanity.

    His behavior is a clue for how we are to respond to
    taunts and disbelief. He did go to the festival. (John 7:10) He did continue his work in the temple. (John 7:14) He pressed into the business his heavenly Father gave him to accomplish. And, in the temple he engaged those who hated him in a way that gave them yet another opportunity to believe. (John 7:15, 16, 17, 18)

    Maru

  27. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… this persecution complex is very complex because it knows no barriers. It can come from the world, anywhere in the world, against any religion, organization, or group of people who differ in beliefs.

    Or, it comes from within and relentlessly attacks its host with thoughts of how they wasted their lives, didn’t live up to a certain standards they or others had or have placed on them.

    Our their current state which they identify as their place of woe, or poor me, which they ironically relish in this life as they perpetuate it upon themselves.

    Never done complaining, never really satisfied, never feeling “their” needs are being met.

    Constant self-emasculation if you will, refusing to change their current identity which is what they complexly persecute themselves with, and wiillingly share or infect others, every waking moment.

    Most answers, most of what bothers us, most of what we do not, or will not, see in ourselves is fear based abilty to change, and that is a persecution from Satan who lives within the constantly wounded, constantly woeful, constantly unwilling, constantly unchanging, self.

    The place of origin where all pride and sin find their beginning and their sustainable life, and for some a life without end.

    When the only real solution lies within each believer, and in what they choose to believe.

    Be it their right or wrong choices where they alone decide for themselves which one they will live with.

    Being more Christ-like is nothing but doing what the Father wants, His will, and that is why Christ took the longer way and met the woman at the well. He did so because He obeyed his Father’s commanding voice in Him, and not any easy out or easy way which HE could have picked for himself.

    The woman at the well was there at noon in the heat of the day, because for her that was easier than getting all those shame based looks, or listening to all the accusations of others who met there earlier in the day, and they knew she was living incorrectly.

    She was nothing but another sinnier who like Adam or Eve were found hiding from their nakedness.

    God’s plan was fulfilled in her meeting the Savior, and her eyes were openned to the truth, the way, and the life she should go on living.

    Go and sin no more, meant only that she had to change a few things in her decission making future, or continue in this ever complex, persecution complex of her own making.

    Gary

  28. Bill says:

    Good Morning, All!

    @Steve, technically, you are correct. According to one definition of persecution I found online, it is:

    “hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of race or political or religious beliefs.

    “her family fled religious persecution”

    synonyms: oppression, victimization, maltreatment, ill-treatment, mistreatment, abuse, ill-usage, discrimination, tyranny;”

    However, I agree with Maru (October 2, 2013 at 7:19 pm): Christians aren’t being persecuted in the USA — not by the traditional definition of the word.

    Frankly, I’d be ashamed to say that Christians in America are being persecuted when my brothers and sisters in other countries are literally losing their lives because of their faith.

    Nothing remotely like that is happening in America. We are not tortured, beaten, whipped, decapitated, maimed, or starved to death. Our laws prohibited such things — for now. I foresee a time when that will change. But we’re not there yet.

    The example you gave — of Mormons — was a century and a half ago. I don’t recall anything like that since. We aren’t even at each other’s throats like they are in Northern Ireland, Catholics against Protestants. Our divisions happen today mostly on Facebook and in pulpits. Such arguments can get heated. And nasty. But nobody storms the gates with pitchforks and torches any more.

    The phrase that more accurately describes what’s happening to Christians in America is “discriminated against.” It is happening at the hands of our own government, at the hands of the media, and through the ever growing legion of vociferous atheists like the late Christopher Hitchens.

    But the reason for that is not necessarily because we’re so unbelievable Christ-like. I think it’s because of all the lies, hypocrisy, shallowness, TV evangelists, scandals, knee-jerk reactions, and discrimination on OUR part against gay people, women in church office and anything we don’t immediately understand or agree with — even Harry Potter. Or Catcher In the Rye. Whatever.

    The pent-up anger the public has against Christians that has been building for decades is now bearing fruit.

    But does that mean it’s because we’re Christ-like and that we’re shining the light on the world’s sins?

    No way. Not by a long, long shot. As I’ve mentioned before, I think we’ve brought this wave of discrimination and marginalization on ourselves because we are UN-Christ Like. If we WERE Christ-like, it’s entirely possible the sinners would dig us now as they dug Jesus then. He was a friend to sinners, remember? Why? Because of what Foreverblessed wrote (October 3, 2013 at 2:36 am): “BE as Jesus was, He was Love, He was forgiveness…”

    @Gary, you wrote (October 2, 2013 at 2:00 pm):

    “I do not agree with Bill’s staement about Satan having better things to do than bother Christians. Why, because Satan is never a bother to the worldy siiner, he is their ever pleasing friend.”

    I didn’t write anything close to that. I wrote (October 2, 2013 at 7:02 am):

    “In my experience, Christians like to say they are being persecuted nearly as often as they change their underwear. Usually, it’s Satan after them. Sometimes, it’s ‘the world’ that hates them.

    “Yet, if these folks weren’t so busy being abject weenies I’m quite sure ‘the world’ would think them fine. And as far as Satan goes, I think he’s got more important people to harass.”

    Nowhere in that statement did I say Satan does not exist or that he does not try to screw with believers. My statement was about all those Christians I’ve known who like to say that Satan is harassing them when it’s clear to others that nothing of the sort is happening.

    In other words, Christians like to blame Satan rather than themselves for some of the calamities that befall them. It’s a defense mechanism. People don’t like to face the shortcomings in themselves.

    It all comes down to this: If we tried our best to BE Jesus — and not a bunch of scripture-quoting theologians (each with his/her own slant on what the Bible means) — the world would be transformed. I’ve written it before, but it bears repeating:

    Jesus didn’t preach the gospel; he WAS the gospel

    Jesus didn’t preach love; he WAS love

    Jesus didn’t preach truth; he WAS truth

    Jesus didn’t preach forgiveness; he WAS forgiveness

    When we realize and admit that we’ve put OURSELVES at the center of the universe because we’re fixated on trying to figure out what the Bible says, how it all fits together, what this verse or that verse means, which doctrine is superior, which pastor or author to follow, hairsplitting what salvation means, who gets it, who doesn’t, etc….

    Then maybe we’ll just lay that all aside and BE Jesus to the world.

    Much love to all,

    Bill

  29. Bill says:

    @Gary, you wrote (October 3, 2013 at 7:48 am):

    “Being more Christ-like is nothing but doing what the Father wants, His will, and that is why Christ took the longer way and met the woman at the well. He did so because He obeyed his Father’s commanding voice in Him, and not any easy out or easy way which HE could have picked for himself.”

    I disagree with that.

    Why?

    Because your statement leads to these questions:

    “What does the Father want?”

    “What is His will?”

    In my experience, that’s where it all breaks down — and leads to deep divisions among Christians.

    Christians haven’t a clue how to answer those questions because they look for hidden, esoteric, subjective, spiritual answers to them, when the answers are staring them in the face — literally in red letters — in the Bible.

    What does the Father want? He wants us to BE JESUS and to tell others what Jesus did.

    What is His will? For us to BE JESUS and tell others what Jesus did.

    How do we know this? Because Jesus said so, as recorded in John 14:5-7:

    * Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” *

    So, I would change what you wrote just to clarify it from this:

    “Being more Christ-like is nothing but doing what the Father wants.”

    To this:

    “Being more Christ-like is nothing but doing what Jesus did.”

    That makes it more concrete, easier to attain, easier to explain. It makes it easy for even a child to know what the Father wants.

    If being Jesus-like is not what the Father wants, if that is not His will, then we can eliminate Jesus from the Bible and just preach the Bible, the words in it. Because that’s what would be left to us.

    The entire warp and woof of history, from “In the beginning God…” at Genesis 1:1 to “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.” at Revelation 22:21 is about Jesus.

    Everything points to Jesus.

    If we overlook that, or if we make God’s will something we just cannot fathom, or something that is known only to a few people, then we are lost…and the Bible is worthless.

    This is why I try to make my message very clear. We are to do one thing: Be Jesus.

    Of course…

    This post — as all of my posts — is just my opinion. All of you can take from it what you wish, discard the rest. I am not God. I do know definitively know anything. I offer opinions, nothing more.

    Thank you for your time reading this.

    Love to all,

    Bill

  30. SFDBWV says:

    Christianity spread throughout the known world and everywhere it went life improved for believer and non alike.

    The enemy today to Christian believers is the same as entered the world scene some 1100 years ago “Islam”.

    The Moor’s pushed deep into Spain in an attempt to wipe out Christianity in and conquer Europe. Without Christian warriors who fought for Christianity in successful agreement with the desires of God, Islam would have swept over Europe like a plague.

    That scenario is being played out again on a global scale. Islam is the persecutors of Christians in every country in the world.

    Islam is the face of persecution to Christianity.

    That being said let me turn to the accusation of being under the delusion of being persecuted, or thinking that one is being persecuted when by the judgment of another they are *delusional*.

    Who makes that distinction?

    Any one with any sensibilities recognizes that you can feel the darkness of being hated or reviled spiritually. People can sense hate without being slapped in the face or cursed to your face.

    There is a spirit world, and the dark spirits of it can torment you or come against you and you will *feel* its results even though unseen.

    If you don’t believe there is a spirit world, then if one says there is, you may think them *delusional* or insane.

    A psychiatrist trained in the flesh of the world may agree.

    Jesus said there is a spirit world and Paul said the battle is there.

    Don’t be misled, the fiery darts Paul spoke of can come from people same as from Satan, in fact it is the demonic *spirit* that is fed, controlled and led by the spirit of man. And you can sense it across oceans, across rooms or anywhere hatred is fed.

    We live at the end of the age, everyone *senses* it, how you handle it or treat others as time grows short is up to you.

    If someone tells me they feel persecuted or hated, I must show them *love*, not judge them delusional.

    Steve

  31. Bill says:

    You truly have a solid grasp of history and current events, Steve.

    Very well written!

    I have one minor point of clarification. You wrote:

    “The enemy today to Christian believers is the same as entered the world scene some 1100 years ago ‘Islam’.”

    That is only one enemy. It happens to be our biggest and deadliest at this time. But I think we’re faced with more “enemies” today than we have in a long, long time — especially in the United States were we aren’t used to many “enemies” at all.

    But you’re absolutely right about the tsunami that is Islam. It will wipe us out unless we wake up to what’s going on.

  32. SFDBWV says:

    One of the onus’ Jesus put on us is the fact that you don’t have to actually kill someone or sleep with their wife to be guilty of murder or adultery. You just have to want to.

    The topic being “Persecution Complex” and Mart’s explanation of that being an *unhealthy* state of mind that causes persons or groups to assume they are victims of an evil conspiracy that has singled them out because they are different than the mainstream.

    Was Jesus in a state of an *unhealthy mind* when He said that the world first hated Him and would also hate His followers?

    If I believe that being Christian means I am now a part of the body of Christ, and happen to be an American, does that mean being Christian is restricted to only being an American? Of course not!

    Christians are persecuted, I am a Christian, if my brothers or sisters in Christ are suffering so am I.

    My lack of physically suffering the same as another Christian does not change the fact that *Christians* suffer persecution.

    If I am a Christian am I now supposed to separate myself from other Christians and say they suffer I do not? Where is the love in such a view?

    Amazing; America leads the world in evangelism and charity and are criticized for not suffering the same maladies as those to whom we aid.

    I have to ask you Bill, is there something troubling or disastrous occurring in your off line life?

    Your recent antagonism really isn’t the reflection of the love you first came to the blog with or I think that you want to show.
    Sadly the message is lost in the spirit of the comment.

    Steve

  33. Bill says:

    I’m not sure what you mean, Steve. My life is great, online and off. I see no “antagonism” in my posts. My posts are the same now as they’ve always been. In fact, I go out of my way to indicate at post’s end that y’all can chuck everything I’ve just written because it’s merely an opinion.

    I apologize if I am coming across as “antagonistic.” Are you sure you’re not reading something into my posts because of something going on in YOUR off-line life?

    Regardless, I will do my best to be more attentive to my words.

  34. phpatato says:

    First of all, Steve, I am concerned that lately I have read words such as exhausted and tired and if memory serves me well, world-weary in your posts. Please, dear brother, take care of yourself. I wished I lived closer to you so that I could lend a helping hand. With fall now here, I know you have the added pressures of making sure things are ready for another long winter. Isaiah 40:31 – But they that wait on the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. xoxo

    As for asking Bill about his recent antagonism…I don’t see it as antagonism. I see it as a burning passion, a heart-felt inspiring plea for Christians to just BE. I would love to be sitting in a pew when he is in the pulpit. His passion is bound to be contagious. He has the makings of starting a much needed revival. :-)

    Love you both as I do everyone here!!!

    Pat xoxo

  35. poohpity says:

    I can not be Jesus. I can only follow Him and let Jesus be Jesus. I can cloth myself with Him but I can not be Jesus. I can learn all that He gave me to learn about Him but I can not be Jesus. We were given the Bible to know Him and to reveal who I am compared to Him but I can not be Jesus.

    I can abuse His Word by expecting others to live by it and tear it apart by not knowing it and falsely applying it to arugements, my points of view and to oppress, demonize, hate because of it but then I really do not know it at all. Jesus is the Word made flesh, I can not be Jesus.

    Satan even knows and acknowledges Jesus and who He is and has to ask Him to sift me but I do not fear being lead astray by that devil because the Word is in me. I do not fear any other religion or hate those who practice them because the One I follow is greater than what any man can come up with to follow in his attempt to rebel against the God I know and love.

    The One I follow does not hate the world He died for it with the most amazing type of love ever known by mankind. The world however hates Him because at His name everything in the earth, on the earth and above this earth will bow down at His name which I already do. The world hates but Jesus loves and love will cover a mulitude of sin. I can not be Jesus so I will struggle against this flesh until I go to be with Him in paradise freed from this flesh. In that struggle I know that I will overcome not because of anything I can do but becuase of what Jesus has done.

  36. poohpity says:

    The world hates Him because they do not know Him if they did they would love Him too!!!

  37. poohpity says:

    Disagreeing is often mistaken as antagonistic when it is only disgreeing. It does not mean one thinks any less of another if they do not think alike but that is often taken as a stand against someone when it is not. Hopefully we follow Jesus and not each other.

  38. Artle says:

    When I read all that I read here; the wisdom, knowledge, and yearning to understand; the likenesses and differences, the agreements and disagreements; the questionings and the supports; the blindness as well as great insights; faith and doubt flowing from different directions each day; all of this likely looking foolish from the outside; I can only draw the conclusion that y’all must be Christians.

  39. SFDBWV says:

    Sorry Bill I must have misinterpreted the tone in some of your comments, my apologies for doing so. Only out of concern for your wellbeing did I ask.

    Pat how I wish you did live closer, or even for now if you and RBC could get your email matter resolved.

    We are having a beautiful Fall here, but then we did last year just before “Sandy” showed up and knocked out our power for 10 day with 3 feet of wet heavy snow.

    See all tomorrow, God willing.

    Steve

  40. poohpity says:

    Artle I know I am a Christian and that is why I point people to Jesus and His Word because my failings, faults and inabilites are nothing compared to His grace. A book that I flipped through recently “Jesus Wants To Save Christians” about what happens when Christians support, animate and participate in the very things Jesus came to set people free from the desires of the world, to be praised rather than giving praise. We are all broken vessels in need of a touch from the Master. So those who come here will see our need for forgiveness and grace just like is needed for all mankind, we are not perfect. The problems come when we try and hide our flaws or deny we have them.

  41. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill … look who is getting all the attention now!

    Is it Jesus, or you?

    I forgive you Bill, for now your saying that Jesus didn’t teach, or preach the Gospel?

    But you sir, really need to rethink that one.

    You said, he didn’t teach or preach love, truth, or forgiveness.

    All wrong, because He both “taught and lived,” all of those very ideals.

    But, if you want to have your opinion heard, then you are entitled to it, but please don’t make anymore ridiculous misleading statements.

    Then you say, that you never said, Satan does not exist. Okay….

    Who was holding you accountable for saying that is beyond me, but you added it to your retort back to me anyhow to perhaps distract or invalidate something or everything I said, but was that really your point?

    I find those kind of tricky maneuvers only provoke more attention back to you.

    Why you need to use absurd references or other diversions for attention is perhaps showing us something is not quite right somewhere.

    That of course is not a professional opinion, only my opinion because others here are lining up to hear more from your pulpit.

    Now, on to this meeting at the well, another contention held by you where you go on to say, was not any following of the Father’s will.

    Somehow, you have created in your mind a Jesus who acted on his own, a Jesus who was just being himself, doing his own thing, which is not the Jesus of the bible, I know.

    Never, did Jesus act, do, or say anything during his ministry, that the Father did not will, or first direct him to do, because once his ministry started, every word and action portrayed from him, came from the Father and through Him.

    That free will association as Jesus being just a man, or finding his own separation from His Father that you are promoting here, is not anything I’ve found scripture, and you sir, will have a hard time proving that as being truth, through any scripture you will find in the bible.

    There was one moment though, that one tick of time where that separation did exist, it was however the Father’s will and plan as well, and that moment was on the cross were Christ surrendered his will to live, just to die for us.

    Jesus acting out or being just himself, the people’s man doing his own will, is not found in my bible, or in my opinion, or my thoughts.

    So, we differ greatly on what we glean from scripture, because Jesus prayed to His Father just before setting out on that journey, and that course changed the lives of many.

    To me, it was all part of the divine plan, and the Father’s will.

    But, you are finding something that is really not there, you choose to find only a man doing his own thing, and not under the Father’s direction.

    I wonder who does that serve, and why?

    Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.

    Perhaps I’ve misread you somewhere.

    Gary

  42. oneg2dblu says:

    Yes Artle… we are both Christia and all flawed, and that flawed condition, is what caused Christ to reach out to us.
    Praise God!

  43. poohpity says:

    Gary, I think you may have misunderstood what Bill was saying.

  44. phpatato says:

    In my opinion, Jesus didn’t teach or preach the Gospel…HE WAS THE GOSPEL. If there wasn’t Jesus, there’d be no gospel.

    I will take in part a posting from a blog that comes to into my email. It was a conversation between an energetic 86 year young retired minister, Pastor John Witt and a the author of the blog, Pastor Ken Weliever, The Preachersword.

    “””John looked at me and said, “Too many people look at Christianity as being a part of their life, instead of being their life.”

    I’ve thought about them all afternoon. Last night. And now this morning. They powerfully speak to what conversion to Christ is about. What our lives should be about, if we are Christ followers.

    Paul, who was converted from a persecutor of Christians to a proclaimer of Christ, penned, “I have been crucified WITH Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives IN me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith IN the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me” (Gal. 2:20).

    The apostle reminded the Colossian Christians, “For you have died, and your life IS hidden WITH Christ IN God. When Christ who IS your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” (Col. 3:3-4)

    And toward the end of his life Paul wrote from a Roman prison, where he was shackled for sharing Christ, and freely admitted, “For to me, to live IS Christ, and to die is gain” (Phil 1:21).

    As I think of John’s observation and the words of scripture and see two kinds of “Christians.” Each are represented by a circle.

    John said that people have their home life, work life, recreation life, procreation life, and then their Christian life. This life represented by a circle with five or six or seven lines dividing it into the various life components. Each are unique. Separate. Distinct.

    The second circle portrays a different kind of Christian. His life is the Christian life. The circle has various divisions. But there is another circle inside the circle. In the very center. It represents Christ. And all of life is directed and dictated by Christ. By the gospel of Christ. By Christianity. Their life is defined by their relationship with the Lord.

    As we talked, John asked me why I thought so many who attend church lack commitment to Christ. Why they have made Christianity a part of their life instead of their life?

    It is a question that challenges each of us. Each day. In every activity. In every decision. Is Christianity just a part of my life? Or is Christianity my life?

    (it was me who put the capitals on the words. My intent is to show that we are a BEing with Christ. We can BE JESUS)

    What does it mean to BE JESUS? To live our lives LIKE Him. By LOVING, by forgiving (those who have stepped on our toes or who have wronged us by refusing to carry forward that “grudge” that so many seem to carry today), by being humble and compassionate, caring…by denying self and to BEcome a servant.

    That, to me, is what Bill and Foreverblessed meant by BE JESUS…at least in my common sense way of looking at it. I could be wrong though :-/

  45. Bill says:

    @Gary, Pooh is right; you misunderstood me.

    @Pat, I can’t speak for Foreverblessed, but that’s what I meant: we cannot literally be Jesus. (Pooh is right about that.) But if we do as he did, we will be LIKE him. That’s what I believe we are supposed to be — like Jesus. That’s what the phrase Christian means, isn’t it — follower of Christ?

    @ Artle, you wrote (October 3, 2013 at 11:17 am):

    “I can only draw the conclusion that y’all must be Christians.”

    That made me laugh out loud. :)

    I seriously doubt anything we’re saying in this forum has the power to lead anyone to hell. If that were true, I would be more powerful than God. So would Gary, Pat, Pooh, Steve, and all the other brilliant, insightful interpreters of scripture in their lives.

    That’s really what this comes down to — how we interpret scripture in our own lives. We have to do it that way. God didn’t create a legion, an army. He created me. He created Gary. He created Pooh. He created Steve. He created Mart…

    We all stand before him, alone, on our own merits, with our own understanding.

    I offer my own understanding. It is not suitable for others unless it agrees with what they think/believe on their own.

    Bill

  46. Artle says:

    There is only one thing needful. Only one.

  47. Artle says:

    That’s what I think to myself when things get too complicated; there is only one thing needful.

    In case the phrase does not ring the right bell, it is what Jesus told Martha when she complained that Mary was not as she thought Mary should be. (Luke 10:42 KJV)

  48. oneg2dblu says:

    To all who want to hear only what they want to hear, here goes, and I quote…
    “Being more Christ-like is nothing but doing what Jesus did.”

    But…
    He never said, “Be Me,” He said Follow Me, for He is the leader, and we are to follow Him like sheep who are in need of a Shepherd.

    Good luck living a sinless pure life that is only directed by God, that would be a Jesus moment…
    Good luck with changing water into wine,
    Good luck healing the next leaper you see,
    or healing the woman with the blood issue, who rubs against your garmet, and finds her faith has healed her.
    Good luck feeding thousands with only a few fish and a few loaves.
    Telling the local fisherman where to throw their nets, I like to be there for that trespass…
    or tell them to go find a fish with their taxes inside its mouth.
    Oh yeah, then there is walking on water, calming the seas at your command, those might be a rush…
    Shall I go on?
    Or, has pooh made made any sense to you with her more rational clear thinking and better point, we are not Jesus.
    We are not fully God, and also fully man.
    We are not the Bridegroom and never will be.
    But, if that is your position, then have at it.

    And, while I’m at it ,make sure you don’t preach the Gospel either, if that is what you think Christ avoided teaching.
    When you come back to your senses, then you can return to the Father telling Him you have made a mistake in your judgment, about where you’ve already spent yourself, wasting the inheritance on your wishful thinking, and you are now ready to come back under His Discipline.
    For you have wondered from the truth, like another who wished and tried to be a god himself…
    To me, Satan comes to mind.

    How’s all that working for you?

    Only one of us has the nail scared hands, and they are not posting here with them, we had better never forget that one small point.
    I did shoot a framing nail into my right hand years ago building a deck, so maybe I’m half way there.
    Oh, I forgot to mention that God did not tell me to do it, that I did on my own in my own strength, and He has so far, not asked me to show it around to make believers of the doubting among us.
    Yes there is some sardonic wit in my words, but also some real truth lurking throuhghout, finding which is which, may be a chore for those who only want to hear, what they want to hear.
    Gary

  49. Bill says:

    Here’s what I posted, Gary:

    “…I can’t speak for Foreverblessed, but that’s what I meant: we cannot literally be Jesus. (Pooh is right about that.) But if we do as he did, we will be LIKE him. That’s what I believe we are supposed to be — like Jesus. That’s what the phrase Christian means, isn’t it — follower of Christ?”

    I’m not sure where the miscommunication is coming from. But I’m not sure I can be any clearer than that. If you wish to continually try to attack me, that’s your right.

    What Jesus are you following, Gary? If it’s not one POSSIBLE to follow, then it’s probably you’ve got the wrong savior.

    We can be IN HIM, FOLLOWING HIM, LIKE HIM, LOVING AS HE COMMANDED US, or we can’t. If we can’t, then we’re all in deep doo-doo here.

    Please quit trying to dissect every single syllable of my posts, quit trying to attack me personally, quite singling me out as the subject of your anger. I’m not sure who or what angers you so deeply, but I can assure you it’s not me.

  50. cbrown says:

    There are 2 points of view, old man and the new man. You can be talking about the same thing but I think it was Gary pointed out it depends on which point of view you have but if you are in Christ you should keep the 11th commandment.

  51. phpatato says:

    My dear brother Gary…it seems to me that you too are only hearing what you want to hear…or as I sometimes think…reading what you only want to read. That is a two-way street that applies to all of us at times. Did you not hear/read what Deb said at 1:42pm “Gary, I think you may have misunderstood what Bill was saying.”

    I too think that you misunderstood what Bill was saying. I also think you have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

    Oh how I wish we could meet. I am sure that once we got to know each other, you would find that I do not have such a heathen outlook as you seem to think.

    p.s. I do try very hard to practice what I said…I try hard not to carry grudges forward. What disagreement there was in a topic from a day or week or even month ago is right there…a day or week or month back. On any new day, there has to be something that is said that I will be in agreement with. In other words, I try not to paint a person with a wide brush so as to taint everything they say from then on to eternity. I guess you could say that I have been blessed with a short memory. Getting old does have its advantages. :-)

    So that being said, I love you dear brother! You bring great insights to the table!!!

    Lovingly

    Pat

  52. oneg2dblu says:

    Bill…Please quit trying to dissect every single syllable of my posts, quit trying to attack me personally, quite singling me out as the subject of your anger. I’m not sure who or what angers you so deeply, but I can assure you it’s not me.
    Gary

  53. oneg2dblu says:

    I’m sorry again Bill I’ve misread your words, I thought you said, BE JESUS,
    Bill … I’m guilty again!
    As usual I’m wrong and did not read your words as written.
    I thought this was your post…

    “What does the Father want? He wants us to BE JESUS and to tell others what Jesus did.”

    “What is His will? For us to BE JESUS and tell others what Jesus did.”

    So forgive me for thinking you said, Be Jesus.
    What was I thinking?

  54. oneg2dblu says:

    Sorry we can’t seem to find common ground in your constant changing of your words.
    So, I’ll have to keep changing mine to suit you, just so you don’t continue to feel attacked.
    But first go and read your 8:38 post with the actuaal words you used.
    Perhaps that is where I’m coming from, and I’m not the only one you’ve played with here, so let the word games continue., they seem to suit your needs.

  55. oneg2dblu says:

    I’ll break this particular thread with you Bill, and no longer respond or defend my actions as it is already confused many. I will not continue to debate in this kind of word game with you. Gary

  56. oneg2dblu says:

    Thanks, Pat.

    I do sometimes read things incorrectly, as I am human.
    Not Christ, but only human.

    What I reitterated about the meaning of those two words, was misunderstood, as well.

    I did not read those two words incorrectly, they were clearly written, “Be Jesus.”

    So, when I responded to what “was written” the words were changed with a broader definition into now reading more correctly, “like Him.” which was my whole point.

    Meaning, we can’t be Jesus but we can be more Christ-like.

    Only problem is, now I’ve become the misunderstood stepchild of evil, who became labeled as an attacker.

    Not just someone making a point, or having a misuderstanding, like everyone else here can have, who at times must pick others words apart, to make a point more clearly presented.

    My only point of challenge was just the same as pooh had posted, when she said, “I can’t be Jesus!”

    That was my point, perhaps explained using other words, but the very same point, none of us, can ever BE JESUS.

    But now it has morphed into my becomig a personal attacker, and everybody is happy, happy, happy!

    I’m finding something is amiss in this equation.

    Have a good night my sister, and God Bless.
    Gary

  57. oneg2dblu says:

    Be well my brothers and sisters. I’m taking a few days off for some mental clarity, a Fasting with the Lord. For In His Presnece, I’m not so misunderstood, or displeased.
    Gary

  58. oneg2dblu says:

    Persecution Complex Disorder perhaps. :)

  59. poohpity says:

    Matt 6:17-18 NIV. The persecution complex is a learned behavior and will cause disorder in one’s life and to those around them.

  60. poohpity says:

    Gary, we all have issues that need work and when we realize them the more we understand how so very wonderful grace truly is.

  61. plumbape says:

    Thought this could help!
    “Seven Way King”

    My King was born King. The Bible says He’s a Seven Way King. He’s the King of the Jews – that’s a racial King. He’s the King of Israel – that’s a National King. He’s the King of righteousness. He’s the King of the ages. He’s the King of Heaven. He’s the King of glory. He’s the King of kings and He is the Lord of lords. Now that’s my King. Well I wonder if you know Him. Do you know Him? Don’t try to mislead me. Do you know my King? David said the Heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament show His handiwork. My King is the only one whom there are no means of measure can define His limitless love. No far seeing telescope can bring into visibility the coastline of His shore of supplies. No barriers can hinder Him from pouring out His blessing. Well, well, He’s enduringly strong. He’s entirely sincere. He’s eternally steadfast. He’s immortally graceful. He’s imperially powerful. He’s impartially merciful. That’s my King. He’s God’s Son. He’s the sinner’s saviour. He’s the centrepiece of civilization. He stands alone in Himself. He’s august. He’s unique. He’s unparalleled. He’s unprecedented. He’s supreme. He’s pre-eminent. Well, He’s the loftiest idea in literature. He’s the highest personality in philosophy. He’s the supreme problem in high criticism. He’s the fundamental doctrine of proved theology. He’s the carnal necessity of spiritual religion. That’s my King. He’s the miracle of the age. He’s the superlative of everything good that you choose to call Him. Well, He’s the only one able to supply all of our needs simultaneously. He supplies strength for the weak. He’s available for the tempted and the tried. He sympathizes and He saves. He’s strong God and He guides. He heals the sick. He cleanses the lepers. He forgives sinners. He discharged debtors. He delivers the captives. He defends the feeble. He blesses the young. He serves the unfortunate. He regards the aged. He rewards the diligent and He beautifies the meek. Do you know Him? Well, my King is the key of knowledge. He’s the wellspring of wisdom. He’s the doorway of deliverance. He’s the pathway of peace. He’s the roadway of righteousness. He’s the highway of holiness. He’s the gateway of glory. He’s the master of the mighty. He’s the captain of the conquerors. He’s the head of the heroes. He’s the leader of the legislatures. He’s the overseer of the overcomers. He’s the governor of governors. He’s the prince of princes. He’s the King of kings and He’s the Lord of lords. That’s my King. Yeah. Yeah. That’s my King. My King, yeah. His office is manifold. His promise is sure. His light is matchless. His goodness is limitless. His mercy is everlasting. His love never changes. His Word is enough. His grace is sufficient. His reign is righteous. His yoke is easy and His burden is light. Well. I wish I could describe Him to you, but He’s indescribable. He’s indescribable. Yes. He’s incomprehensible. He’s invincible. He’s irresistible. I’m coming to tell you, the heavens of heavens cannot contain Him, let alone a man explaining Him. You can’t get Him out of your mind. You can’t get Him off of your hands. You can’t outlive Him and you can’t live without Him. Well, Pharisees couldn’t stand Him, but they found out they couldn’t stop Him. Pilot couldn’t find any fault in Him. The witnesses couldn’t get their testimonies to agree. Herod couldn’t kill Him. Death couldn’t handle Him and the grave couldn’t hold Him. That’s my King. Yeah. He always has been and He always will be. I’m talking about He had no predecessor and He’ll have no successor. There was nobody before Him and there’ll be nobody after Him. You cant impeach Him and He’s not going to resign. That’s my King! That’s my King! Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory. Well, all the power belongs to my King. We’re around here talking about black power and white power and green power, but it’s God’s power. Thine is the power. Yeah. And the glory. We try to get prestige and honour and glory for ourselves, but the glory is all His. Yes. Thine is the Kingdom and the power and glory, forever and ever and ever and ever. How long is that? And ever and ever and ever and ever. And when you get through with all of the evers, then, Amen.

    I’m just wanting to love Jesus and show it as best I can. I have my ups and downs, have sure learned a lot from Mart and friends, praise the Lord for that.

    Plumbape
    Michael

  62. foreverblessed says:

    Yeah, thats my King! Hallelujah, when I read something like that my hallelujah really means something!
    Thanks Michael, that brings everything in perspective!
    If we are so focussed on Him, than no persecution would do us anything, just like Bellue wrote, Stephan was singing praise to God, when he was stoned.

    When I said, be Jesus, I mean it in the same way as when Jesus told us:
    Be you therefore perfect Matt 5:48
    We could tell Him: Jesus, we can never be perfect, why then do You command us to be perfect.
    Jesus would answer something like this: I know that you can never be perfect, but to aim for anything lower then perfect, what would do that any good?
    And my own thoughts on this: be Jesus, we are not to do that in our own strength, we are to live in Him.
    Pat had a good live of scriptures of being in Jesus, Jesus living in us, oct 3 1.48 pm
    Gal 2:20, Col 3:3-4, Phil 1:21
    I would add: Gal 4:19 Paul was in pains of childbirth, so was he concerned that Christ would be formed in us.
    Lets encourage one another to have Christ formed in us, die to our old self, die to the world. When we are dead to the world, we have already died, and persecution can’t hinder us. We live for Christ, Christ lives in us.
    If we say: Be Jesus, it means we aim for not anything less than that.

    Jesus our King, that’s my King yeah, that speech made my day, what a start of the day!
    God bless you all, and especially you Gary, be much blessed!

  63. Bill says:

    I had no idea the phrase “be Jesus” would be so controversial around here.

    Haven’t you guys ever heard a sermon in which the pastor encouraged you to “be Jesus to a lost and needy world”? I have. So has my wife. We didn’t think the pastor expected anyone to literally become Jesus, even though he used the words “be Jesus.” We understood he meant “be” as in represent, stand in for. Like an ambassador. Like our representatives in Congress. We elect them to ‘be” us in Washington.

    It really is time to move on from a group of Christians when things deteriorate to point where even the phrase “be Jesus” causes such unrest. I thought we were all rational, reasonable members of the same family — or, at the very least, respectful enough fellow human beings to have disagreements that didn’t become personal attacks in nearly every thread.

    To be honest, I’m tired of the clashes, tired of worrying about offending people if I use the wrong words or — God forbid! — see things in a slightly different way. I’m tired of having to put disclaimers in what I write, explaining that my posts are just my opinions. I walk on eggshells every time I venture into one of Mart’s posts.

    There are some very articulate, insightful, warm, kind people here. I’d be honored to be in the same room with such folks.

    But there are also people here who, well, aren’t so nice.

    That’s life, though. I realize that. In any online group there are bound to be a few who need to be right all the time and who feel threatened or affronted by any disagreement. Even though I understand that, I sometimes let it get to me. Like this morning. I couldn’t sleep. So, I started writing this at 4:30am, in the dark, on my iPhone.

    It’s entirely possible that McLuhan was right: the medium is the message. So, try as we might, we will never in this online group rise above the fact that this is an online group — faceless, nameless, virtually anonymous…

    …and prone to constant bickering.

    In the end, what does all of this mean? Who cares if anyone here is “right,” or if anyone here is “wrong.” To some looking in, we’re ALL wrong because we appear to be a bunch if passive-aggressive, insecure, argumentative poseurs to the kingdom of God, which surely cannot exist because all of us — supposedly his children, members of the same family — cannot quit arguing…even about something as simple as love.

    Or the phrase “be Jesus.”

    I can’t tell if this behavior is endemic to Christians, or if it’s a problem of human nature and our penchant to build walls in our minds, and always operate from the perspective of us and them.

    Regardless, life is way too short. And I’m not getting any younger. So I’m going to step away from BTA (again).

    I have no idea when (or if) I’ll return. But it doesn’t matter either way. BTA will still be BTA, with or without me.

    Much love to all,

    Bill

  64. SFDBWV says:

    I am going to *think* in a different direction this morning.

    Mart’s final thoughts on this subject were; “we need to make sure we are making progress in knowing the difference between suffering “for Christ’s sake” rather than for our own mistakes and resulting persecution complex”.

    Though “Persecution Complex” is the title of this topic I don’t like the judgmental tone of the words. It implies that the person feeling persecuted is mentally off track and there is just something uncomfortable about feeling that way towards a person who feels they are *persecuted*.

    Jesus clearly said his followers would be hated. He added that some would even be dragged before the religious leaders and punished for His sake.

    In this conversation are we restricting only being beaten or killed as a condition for being persecuted for Christ’s sake?

    Walk into a party or gathering of people and as soon as you state you are a Christian watch what happens to the demeanor of those same people towards you.

    In fact you can feel the ice as soon as you profess you are a follower of Christ.

    Does this meet the criteria of persecution for Christ as intended in this topic?

    The ideal intent of the formation of the USA was that Christians could have a place of their own and have a place that gave us the freedom not to be persecuted.

    How ironic that now we are singled out for not suffering enough or correctly.

    I think deeper thought and a wider view needs to be addressed regarding this persecution concept and I also think we should leave out the *complex* side of the subject.

    Steve

  65. SFDBWV says:

    Regarding Bill’s final comment; I am saddened that he has decided to leave the group, saddened because I hate it when any leave embittered from the experience of interacting with others.

    I often wonder why God listens to any persons prayers given He hears all the griping complaining and selfish wants of us all, but I have learned it is love that keeps His attention and ear to our voices and love that loves us in spite of ourselves.

    I learn from both man and God and then choose which is best.

    Love especially difficult and sacrificial love is always best.

    Bill, you’re a smart guy, I would have thought a man who writes for a living would have long ago overcame criticism for the things he writes. Yet I understand hurt feelings are still hurt feelings, I apologize if I have offended you and ask your forgiveness.

    Steve

  66. SFDBWV says:

    Our friend Bruce’s wife has been persecuted by her own family because she left the Catholic Church in order to find a more personal relationship with Jesus through a different fellowship.

    Would you agree with me in seeing her persecution from her catholic family, though through a choice of hers, still suffering persecution for her faith in Christ as in Christ’s sake?

    I don’t really feel the insults and stupidity of the news media or the amoral TV and movie industry are persecution directed at me, but Christians in those industries who are ostracized for being so, do I am sure, feel persecuted.

    Even if you micro manage this subject, you can see that “The Watch Tower Society” feeds off of and feels persecuted by other Christians for their *brand* of faith in Christ, as again for Christ’s sake.

    Even the Catholics have to feel persecuted by all of the Protestant rhetoric they hear directed towards them.

    As you sift down through this subject it comes down to *who* decides what is actually persecution for Christ and what is imagined persecution for Christ.

    Once again the final judge should be Jesus not us.

    Steve

  67. SFDBWV says:

    I am sure you are all getting tired of Stevie this morning, but one final thought before my day gets too busy.

    For all the people who suffer illness, crippling and disabling conditions. Jesus went about healing all he came into contact with. His attention was compassion for all who were sick and disabled.

    You ask God and wonder why it is you have to suffer and ask Him to relieve you of that suffering.

    In suffering you still hold out hope in Jesus for your healing, even up to and including death.

    Your suffering is real, your faith in Jesus is real and when you hear or feel persecuted for believing that your suffering can and will be relieved through Jesus of Nazareth, you too are being persecuted for Jesus’ sake.

    Do not let any one steal your joy or question your faith by telling you that you don’t suffer for Christ’s sake.

    Steve

  68. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Plumbape (Michael) – I want to thank you for the words about our King. I admit at first I just skimmed it because it was so long, but then I went back and read through the entire post.

    How good it is to praise God! Praising Him truly lifts my spirits up. Phil 4:8 Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable – if anything is excellent or praiseworthy – think about such things.

  69. BruceC says:

    Steve,

    I agree with the posts you have written. And I know personally that “feeling” that one can get around those that truly look down their nose at you because you believe differently.

    I also remember all the “weird” looks I have gotten when I tell people that the “Lord delivered me” from addiction to cigarettes. It’s that “Yeah…right!” type of look. But that is okay…..I know the truth and so does Jesus and my wife.

    Thanks again for your posts.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  70. cbrown says:

    Isn’t it something how God works. Last night I could not sleep so I did a word search in Bible Gateway on the words “in Christ”. This morning my wife said “the morning devotional in Our Daily Bread is really good. When I read it I was filled with Joy. As I said before my youngest son who is in prison told me they are all good!

  71. Mart De Haan says:

    If someone can see that we honestly care about them, respect them as a person, and have made an attempt to understand them– would they have come in contact with a person who loves them in a way that parallels the heart of Christ?

    If, in our attempt to be true to Christ, we disagree with one another with patience and kindness, while making more of an effort to understand than to be understood– could we say that in one another we have come in contact with people who love one another in a way that parallels the heart of Christ?

    If someone else was trying to figure out what kind of Christ we believe in, would they think we believe in a Christ who said, “This one commandment I give you…. ; and If you only love those who love you… what i.e.makes you different than anyone else?

  72. SFDBWV says:

    Ok Mart you’ve brought the comic out in me; if we behave *like Christ* wouldn’t that make us *Christ like* (the very definition of Christian)?

    Hope you are enjoying your Friday.

    Steve

  73. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    Have checked in a few times, but have not known where to “jump in.”

    About 160 AD/CE a North African history writer & theologian, Tertullian, wrote: “’Look,’ they say, ‘how they love one another’ (for they themselves hate one another); ‘and how they are ready to die for each other’ (for they themselves are readier to kill each other).” (tertullianproject.com)

    In all the gospel accounts of Jesus, he was consistently self-giving and patient with his family, his disciples, his admirers and his enemies. Seems to me it might take all my devotion all day every day to hope to be like him in the world. He is going to have to help me a lot.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  74. Artle says:

    Off topic, I’ll continue to pray.

    On topic, I think we are all persecuted at times and at times we could have a touch (or more) of persecution complex. I think there is a simple way to tell the difference and that is whether the focus of ones thoughts is inward or outward. Is our concern for our self or is it for those who have (figurative) stones in their hands?

  75. phpatato says:

    I am deeply saddened, to the point of tears welling up, from reading Bill’s comment this morning. Everything after that is read but not “read” (absorbed). Bill, I so wish you will reconsider. I will miss you. Please!!!!

    How on earth can a group of people who call themselves Christ-ians become so petty, nit-picking, bullying, blind, self-righteous…ahhhh man I’ve got to stop. My sadness is turning to anger.

    I’m so sorry Mart. You don’t deserve to be constantly picking up the garbage your blog can be littered with. I apologize for strewing mine. I am so very sorry.

    People….Satan is alive and well. His target is obviously right here. What better enjoyment can he get than to cause strife in the very people he hates…Christ followers! And we are letting him win.

    I believe I am going to have to wait for a windy day to come my way because the wind has been knocked out of my sails. But as they say in Newfoundland Canada…long may your big jib draw, or may there always be wind in your sails.

    Love to all

    Pat

  76. billystan454 says:

    “For God so loved the world… that the world through Him might be saved.” “For rthis is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

    What or who is the world? Ephesians 2:12 says it best for me; “That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

    The world? Those “without God.”

  77. poohpity says:

    I do not think it is Satan at all. I think it is the Lord calling us on pride. When we respond to someone in a self defensive posture, attack or leave just because another has a differing opinion that seems to be pride. The Lord never leaves us as He found us and with pride we can feel as if we are being persecuted but I would think that is the Lord taking us off the pedestal where He and only He belongs. Phil 2:3 NIV

    We are followers of Jesus, not Bill, Steve, Gary, Mart, Artle, Bruce, Pat, Deb, tracey, Michael, Maru, cbrown, etc.. We all have areas that need work and I know God will keep us going through those things unitl we learn the lesson. It seems at times it can be a little rough but fire burns and hopefully He will not let it get so bad that we are finally just cut away. Phil 1:6 NIV

  78. phpatato says:

    Deb

    Me sitting back (leaving) has nothing whatsoever to do with pride! Me sitting back is because I am almost full of the defensive posturing, the attacks and the self-righteous blind attitudes displayed by those who have allowed satan to rule their thoughts and words. Satan is alive and well. Those nasty attributes are a result of satan and not God calling us on pride. I believe if the Lord calls us on something, He’d do it within each person’s heart through that still small voice.

    We all need work, yes indeed. But placating the issue of why people leave here by glossing over the seriousness of it is not helpful. Why can’t people work on what’s wrong with themselves in the privacy of their own home. Why do they feel the need to come on a Dear person’s blog, as a guest, to show others their dirty laundry. Why can’t they stay off until they learn to be decent human beings who are sensitive to those who participate. Some people NEVER learn the lesson. Why does Mart have to put up with people’s garbage all in the name of learning a lesson. Mart is human too. He may just feel that he can’t stand the continuing smell of pungent burning ashes and douse this whole thing. And the sad part is those who are blind won’t even see or realize that they are part of the reason why he did so.

    No Deb I wholly disagree with you on this one. Turning a blind eye to the seriousness of this is wrong. Decorating it up with flippant words is wrong. And not recognising that Satan has a hand in the attitudes of responses is blind. We, and that includes more than you and me, have strewn our garbage on Mart at times and that’s not fair!!

    I will sit back now and wonder if I should apologize for telling it like it is. Right now I will settle on a food for thought saying found in an older ODB article….Honesty should not be the best policy, it should be the only policy. This is honestly how I feel.

    I will apologize for my anger. I know there is a more loving way to express what I am feeling but right now I fail to see that way. Sorry. God forgive me for I am feeling so wretched.

  79. cbrown says:

    Things are not always what they seem. God’s ways are not our ways but Praise God he is sovereign and nothing takes Him by surprise. I am thankful for this fellowship and how transparent we can be. Sometimes painfully so. Hope everyone has a good weekend.

  80. belleu says:

    “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

    This is the standard for all of us. There is faith, hope and love; but the greatest thing of all is love. I was just thinking and praying about loving enemies today. I was talking with God about how to hate what people do, yet love them as a person.

    It isn’t an easy thing to wrap my heart and mind around. Loving fellow Christians should be easier – yet it’s not, because Christians can be just as annoying as non-believers.

    When I’m angry with someone, I pray and ask God to help me not be angry but to love. I guess that is all we can do here on this blog. Also, I think we reflect Christendom in this blog in not agreeing among ourselves on what scripture means and nit-picking about words. That is why we have hundreds of churches. It is such a sad state of affairs. Oh well, God bless everyone and I sure hope Bill comes back because I usually like and agree with what he says!

  81. poohpity says:

    Pat, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. Far to often we “blame” Satan, or others for our horrible attitudes or how we perceive things. Yes most often we fail to see things in our own lives because we would rather pick them apart in another.

    I have learned that since I belong to the Lord, Satan no longer has dominion over me and can not cause me to do anything that I have not made the choice to do. Bad behaviors are personal choices we have made and contiue to make. We have everything we need within us to overcome when we are tempted to act like jerks but most often we make a choice to act out then apologize or we do it with no malicious intent but it can be deemed that it was done with ill feelings because the person listening takes it that way. An angry person sees anger in another, a hate filled person will see hate in another not because that is how they are but how self is.

    God has given us the Holy Spirit and with that Spirit comes self control. Spewing out of our mouths ugliness is our own behavior problems, blaming it on others is also a behavior problem and is the easiest way to not accept responsiblity for what we do. No one can make us do anything. Disagreeing is not prideful how we respond or react is. This is what I see as we are talking about a persecution complex not being persecuted for the sake of Christ but because our behaviors often times pushes people away, for the sake of self.

  82. poohpity says:

    It often times seems that when someone disagrees some take that as a personal insult. I do not know about anyone else but when someone disagrees with me, I do not dislike them or think any worse of them, I just do not agree with something they said. It is not personal against the person. I have found in most really good conversations all kinds of thoughts from differing points of view can make the conversation fuller and more meaningful and find that we may have more in common than we have that divides especially when it comes to talking about the Lord and the Bible. Lack of knowledge in those areas seem to be what causes more problems and the funny thing is those are available to all.

  83. Artle says:

    It’s too easy to walk away when something wonderful could be learned. Pooh just mentioned a thought that had occurred to me and that is, we are all not that far apart.

    See if this makes sense. A day or so ago, I realized there is something that Gary and Bill have in common. They both want Christians to be better Christians and have strong beliefs (opinions) about what makes a better Christian. Their strong beliefs (or opinions) bumped heads because, even though they were after the same thing (a better Christian), their ideas of achieving it seem to appear to maybe be mutually exclusive (sorry about the iffiness of this last part, but I do not know the whole story).

    I could continue, but if this doesn’t make sense, I’d be wasting cyberspace.

  84. phpatato says:

    Deb…..I write in the spirit of being extremely honest but at the same time will try and be sensitive and loving (and yes my anger has abated)……

    Is it not our sinful nature (sin in this world is a direct result of satan) that has us packaged with horrible attitudes? Satan is the cause of everything NOT Godly, therefore satan is to blame. We either give satan a foothold to rule our lives or we actively work at becoming Christ-like, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to “fight” our thoughts and therefore our nasty words and comments when it comes to Mart’s blog. Note that I am not on Mart’s topic here…persecution complex. I am on why Bill has left and others in the past. It has to do with “blog etiquette” and the horrible nasty attitudes and comments. It happens far too often (at least far too often for my comfort level). People have a bad day, are in a bad mood or simply and blindly overlook an unchecked disagreeable attitude (they are self-righteous) to come to Mart’s blog and spew comments at other people and their opinions. They nit-pick, split-hairs, bash and downright insult when someone says something they don’t agree with. They try and make the other person look stupid and seem to enjoy playing the oneupmanship game. You did by your comment to Bill when he said “Be Jesus”. You and I both know that you knew that he wasn’t saying that we are to physically be Jesus. We are both way too smart for you to come off as being that dumb not to realize what he meant. And by you doing that, snowballed into an appalling series of comments on what was meant by Be Jesus. The end result was that a dear brother in the Lord, who if my suspicions are right, is a highly respected author of several Christian articles and books (some I’m sure everyone here has enjoyed reading) as well as being a Pastor in the Lord’s work, has left this blog. And, Believe me, if I am right, his leaving is most certainly our loss!!!! And Bill, if I am wrong, let me say that you should be both an author and a Pastor!

    Perhaps it’s time for a little soul-searching. Perhaps it’s time to check our bad attitudes at the click of Beenthinking.org. Perhaps it’s time that we come together for the Christian fellowship that Mart must be yearning to see. Perhaps it’s time that when someone crosses the line, someone else points it out and helps him back over the line. Perhaps it’s time……

    Please know that I have tried with an upmost spirit of love and care to express this. I am truly sorry if I failed to show that.

  85. poohpity says:

    Yep, it is all my fault because I said I can not be Jesus. My bad!! It is my fault for all the attitude problems of others. If blaming me works for ya, go for it. Far be it for anyone to accept responsibility for their own heart condition or you could just keep blaming Satan.

  86. Artle says:

    Mart seems to let learning take its course, but did offer some excellent guidance at 8:57am.

  87. belleu says:

    I find the discussion on how much power Satan has over us interesting. I never used to think of Satan until I listened to Joyce Meyer. She brought to my attention how Satan tempts us through our thoughts.

    I used to wake up horribly depressed every morning. She had preached to us that would be Satan whispering thoughts into my mind. She said to quote the Scriptures out loud and Satan would have to leave. I will tell you all, this type of spiritual warfare works! I quote scripture every time I feel depressed and the depression leaves. God’s power is unleashed and Satan has to run away. I never realized before how Satan can influence my thoughts – but I guess that is what temptation is.

    So, in my mind, the power Satan has over us is to tempt us to think a certain way – a bad way – but he can’t keep us there.

  88. belleu says:

    I re-read the comments section to try to understand why there is so much dissention here. I think it is because there are some who by name attack people and their comments. There is no need for this at all.

    All we have to do is nicely state our own beliefs, not quote what others said and then attack it with a machete.

  89. cbrown says:

    The closing verse of Ephesians is an encouragement also.Ephesians 6:23 Peace to the brothers and sisters,[c] and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love.[d]

  90. foreverblessed says:

    To be at peace with each other is something to be trained to be, just like in this discussion, it is very good training ground!
    Go back to Jesus and get the rest back, nothing between Jesus and me, all unrest must go.
    (My utmost for His highest Oct 3 and 4 are very appropriate for this situation, we have to get through our difficulties, if we go away here, we have to learn it somewhere else in clashing with other christians)

    Very very good, to tackle these depressing thoughts with the words of Jesus! All these thoughts that are bombarded at us, and we think that they are our own! Send them away, that is also the reason why it is good to bless those that curse you! The good overcomes the bad.

    But there is another thing, and that is our old self, that is still reigning in us, and we feel we have a point, the other person is attacking us, and we feel we have the right to strike back, it is our old self that does it, and is still on our throne.

    Paul was saying, Gal 2:20
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    So to come back to: Be Jesus
    It is actually true, we ourselves resign on our own throne, and let Jesus reign, Jesus actually living in me, Be Jesus is very real. Now not all of Jesus (that would be impossible), just a little bit of Him a little bit of His love, and mercy, as Jesus is soooo immensely full of love, peace, mercy… thanks again Michael for your post yesterday morning! Concentrate on Jesus.

    If we say I can never be Jesus, then we have a good point: of course you can never be Jesus, that is why you have to crucify your self, and let Jesus live in you, and then, Yes it is real:Be Jesus, it is actually Jesus in you…

  91. Mart De Haan says:

    foreverblessed, I think you’ve expressed how the Scriptures can be used for the highest purpose.

  92. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all… sadly for some I’m back, and those sharing that feeling of course are not being very Christ-like, but they are just being who you are.

    I wonder if we can perhaps “see” how much good discussion has come out of those who spoke up, and can see the growth that this recent debacle, although painful, has actually provided for us all.

    First… and not first because of any pride issue, but first in my now finding a better choice of words.

    “If we could only see in the words of others, the words of Christ in them as an intended balm, and not see a bomb with our name on it, then we would not explode the way we do.”

    Here are some of my favorites words from others who spoke up… and if you are not included it is not intentional, ever if you feel it is. : )

    Pooh,
    “Gary, we all have issues that need work and when we realize them the more we understand how so very wonderful grace truly is.”

    Plumbape,
    “I’m just wanting to love Jesus and show it as best I can. I have my ups and downs, have sure learned a lot from Mart and friends, praise the Lord for that.”

    Foreverblessed,
    “Yeah, thats my King! Hallelujah, when I read something like that my hallelujah really means something!
    Thanks Michael, that brings everything in perspective!
    If we are so focussed on Him, than no persecution would do us anything, just like Bellue wrote, Stephan was singing praise to God, when he was stoned.

    Pooh, (double billing)
    “I do not think it is Satan at all. I think it is the Lord calling us on pride. When we respond to someone in a self defensive posture, attack or leave just because another has a differing opinion that seems to be pride. The Lord never leaves us as He found us and with pride we can feel as if we are being persecuted but I would think that is the Lord taking us off the pedestal where He and only He belongs. Phil 2:3 NIV”

    “We are followers of Jesus, not Bill, Steve, Gary, Mart, Artle, Bruce, Pat, Deb, tracey, Michael, Maru, cbrown, etc.. We all have areas that need work and I know God will keep us going through those things unitl we learn the lesson. It seems at times it can be a little rough but fire burns and hopefully He will not let it get so bad that we are finally just cut away. Phil 1:6 NIV”

    Steve,
    “I often wonder why God listens to any persons prayers given He hears all the griping complaining and selfish wants of us all, but I have learned it is love that keeps His attention and ear to our voices and love that loves us in spite of ourselves.”

    cbrown,
    “Things are not always what they seem. God’s ways are not our ways but Praise God he is sovereign and nothing takes Him by surprise. I am thankful for this fellowship and how transparent we can be. Sometimes painfully so.

    foreverblessed,
    “To be at peace with each other is something to be trained to be, just like in this discussion, it is very good training ground!

    Mart,
    “foreverblessed, I think you’ve expressed how the Scriptures can be used for the highest purpose.

    Here’s some I have chosen, not to point fingers,
    but only to help us all focus on what is actually
    going on here.

    Luke 7:18,19,22,23 NIV

    Be Blessed, Gary

  93. poohpity says:

    Gary, I want you to know that I understood your point on “Be Jesus” but what I failed to do was to ask Bill if he understood what you were saying. Forgive me? I am glad you decided to write again and hope Bill does the same.

  94. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… thank you. I hope Bill returns as well.
    His notes add to the symphony of ideas and the wholeness of our expression, a seeing of our humanity, if you will, whether at its best and it worst, because we need all voices present, all people to be real, and all to give voice to the greater voice among us, Christ in us.

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