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Christ and Culture

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As we transition into a new year, it seems like a good time to post once again an excerpt from an early 2nd or 3rd century letter explaining and defending the faith of Jesus’ followers.

The letter was originally written in Greek to an unknown person named Diognetus from Mathetes (probably a pseudonym since it literally means disciple).

While much remains unknown about the details of this letter, its importance is apparent to people everywhere and in every age.

While some translations are more difficult to read, I found this excerpt at a Vatican website:

“Christians are indistinguishable from other men either by nationality, language or customs. They do not inhabit separate cities of their own, or speak a strange dialect, or follow some outlandish way of life. Their teaching is not based upon reveries inspired by the curiosity of men. Unlike some other people, they champion no purely human doctrine. With regard to dress, food and manner of life in general, they follow the customs of whatever city they happen to be living in, whether it is Greek or foreign.

And yet there is something extraordinary about their lives. They live in their own countries as though they were only passing through. They play their full role as citizens, but labor under all the disabilities of aliens. Any country can be their homeland, but for them their homeland, wherever it may be, is a foreign country. Like others, they marry and have children, but they do not expose them. They share their meals, but not their wives.

They live in the flesh, but they are not governed by the desires of the flesh. They pass their days upon earth, but they are citizens of heaven. Obedient to the laws, they yet live on a level that transcends the law. Christians love all men, but all men persecute them. Condemned because they are not understood, they are put to death, but raised to life again. They live in poverty, but enrich many; they are totally destitute, but possess an abundance of everything. They suffer dishonor, but that is their glory. They are defamed, but vindicated. A blessing is their answer to abuse, deference their response to insult. For the good they do they receive the punishment of malefactors, but even then they, rejoice, as though receiving the gift of life. They are attacked by the Jews as aliens, they are persecuted by the Greeks, yet no one can explain the reason for this hatred.

To speak in general terms, we may say that the Christian is to the world what the soul is to the body. As the soul is present in every part of the body, while remaining distinct from it, so Christians are found in all the cities of the world, but cannot be identified with the world. As the visible body contains the invisible soul, so Christians are seen living in the world, but their religious life remains unseen. The body hates the soul and wars against it, not because of any injury the soul has done it, but because of the restriction the soul places on its pleasures. Similarly, the world hates the Christians, not because they have done it any wrong, but because they are opposed to its enjoyments.

Christians love those who hate them just as the soul loves the body and all its members despite the body’s hatred. It is by the soul, enclosed within the body, that the body is held together, and similarly, it is by the Christians, detained in the world as in a prison, that the world is held together. The soul, though immortal, has a mortal dwelling place; and Christians also live for a time amidst perishable things, while awaiting the freedom from change and decay that will be theirs in heaven. As the soul benefits from the deprivation of food and drink, so Christians flourish under persecution. Such is the Christian’s lofty and divinely appointed function, from which he is not permitted to excuse himself.From a letter to Diognetus (Nn. 5-6; Funk, 397-401)

Am wondering whether this resonates with you as much as it does with me when it comes to weighing and reflecting on our life in the neighborhood, city, and global community.


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70 Responses to “Christ and Culture”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    What do you suppose someone of the quality of observation as presented from Mathetes, would write today of Christians?

    Are we still a mixture of being culturally blended yet separated in morality?

    Do we rejoice in being persecuted?

    It is interesting to me that since the time of Constantine we have tried as people to make all things Christian and create a Christian controlled world.

    Am wondering why this is seen as wrong?

    We live in a very different world than the one that existed when this letter was written; life for the most part has been enriched for the entire world because of Christian nations. Christian nations populated by Christian peoples and theologies. Laws that are based upon the moral teachings of God.

    Yes we are at war with the flesh of being human, but we recognize good from evil and right from wrong because of our Christian souls and have attempted to improve the quality of life for all by those standards in our actions of living, not the standards of the flesh.

    Yes today is a very different time than when this letter was written, but there is a movement in the spirit of man to return to the depravity and evil of the world as was in control then.

    Steve

  2. poohpity says:

    Yes it does Mart. Christ within a persons life produces the same qualities and character traits no matter where one lives, what language they speak, the color of skin or the era it is the same Christ and His work in us surpasses everything else. The same grace, mercy and hope lives in all Christ followers and the Fruit from living in fellowship with Him is still the same Fruit it never changes just as God remains the same. Talk about security.

  3. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    The disciple’s testimony comes from inside faith in the Son — though the disciple speaks in the third person. We must still pray for the light of Jesus to ignite in all the Diognetus-like people of our day.

    This resonates in my spirit with world Christ-followers. Not so much do I think of believers inside the USA. Unless we venture overseas, we do not engage with a society that imprisons, tortures and kills Christian leaders.

    The profile raised by the disciple’s description of Christ-followers sheds light on the path of complete trust in him. I am wondering whether comfortable, unchallenged Christian faith engages the forces of darkness at all.

    Food for thought at the approach of the watch-night at midnight on December 31st, 2013.

    Blessings at New Year,
    Maru

  4. poohpity says:

    Maru, don’t you feel that Christian faith in the USA is also persecuted maybe not by torture or imprisonment through the culture but look at the young lady in Columbine who was killed as she professed her faith and look at what is happening to Phil Robertson because he quoted what the Bible calls sin when asked, “What is sin to you?”. Or look at the testing of faith when children are lost to crime and the perpetrator is forgiven. Or how people react when mistreated and do not retaliate in name calling or anger. Or how someone handles tragedy, loss, suffering or trials do they question God’s goodness or understand it? I do agree that unchallenged or untested faith is not very strong.

  5. poohpity says:

    I wonder if the question should be for those who live in the USA in not being the recipient of some type of persecution if they in fact do not look to much like the people of the culture they live in or are treated badly because they treat others badly rather than showing mercy and grace when it is so undeserved? You know like judging or criticizing others then receiving it back rather than being kind then getting back ugly.

  6. oneg2dblu says:

    What a powerful letter to be written about “any” people group living in the 2nd or 3rd century. It would be a stretch to apply it to the more modern Christian man today, who has changed the old laws to politically correct the culture, watered down the old teachings, added doctrines that did not exist back then, and now we freely intermarry, take our sin as already forgiven, and have no thoughts about ever losing ones faith.
    We’ve changecd our address from suffering for Christ to living on Easy Street.
    None of those things were even entertained by the early Christian world where the old warnings were fresh and taken as written and applied.
    But, time has changed much of the safeguards that were in place and modern man always pushes the limits and treads dangerously and without fear as he lives in this easy to burst bubble of a false security founded on a doctrine that was not part of the old culture, or way of thinking.
    Satan has had many more years to sudue, alter, weaken, and invade the church and its people, and they do today suffer from the deceptions and falsely applied security teachings many hold today by adding one modern doctrine and many other strongly held beliefs that really never properly challenge much of the old ways, old world, or the word.
    But, I am glad to hear that “at one time,” things were more inline with the truth as written, and that those old ways had a positive effect on the old world.
    But, I’m stuck on the old stuff that used to work quite well according to this old letter, and my old ways of stuck thinking.
    There is one truth that none of us can deny and that is we are clearly closer to the second coming then they were, and the signs we see in our time, are certainly darker for it.
    So, God’s plan is right on track and the false teachers we were warned about still teach their poison to the masses which grow by the number every day.
    Let’s face if evil was losing the battle because we Christians are winning thwe world over today, we would not need the second coming.
    Come Jesus!Don’t let reality ruin your day! Gary

  7. oneg2dblu says:

    Part of the problem I see that others do not is this, when we “the church” step away form the hard teaching that says we must judge our brothers and sisters, or Chrisitiasns, we have already lost that battle and the good people no longer can take a stand against evil, because that is considered judgment!
    We should want to be judged and we should judge all others accordingly using all scriptural references on this subject and not just selecting the ones we like.

    Paul taugh old school, he wanted this evil whenever and wherever it existed to be thrown out of the church.

    But today we embrace many Christians who continue living outside the confines of scripture, failing to call them to righteousness by saying we are showing them mercy, and evil really loves that deceptive embrace, because it feels so loved, celebrated, idolized, approved, and that unfortunately has weakened and corrupted the church.
    But, I’m sure that is a hard message to hear as well.
    Gary

  8. bec4jc says:

    I know that my Christian family and some friends think of me as a fanatic. They come up with many excuses as how I ended up so fanatical like: her mother wasn’t strict enough with her while growing up,she was spoiled,she got caught up in a cult, her grandmother was always at her to read Christian literature against her mother’s will,she’s faking her illnesses and won’t even try to get a job,she has retired too early because of her fake illnesses and because she doesn’t want to have to face people or reality,all she does is study and talk about the Bible and Jesus when we do get together,if she’d spent as much time looking for work as he did with her nose in the Bible and reading all that Bible “stuff” she may not be retired yet,and the big one “she thinks she knows more than us about the Bible and she just likes to show off.” I know for a fact that they feel obligated to ask me to family gatherings but would rather not have me at them. My eldest sister thinks I’m not a Christian because 1. she never came to my baptism so it doesn’t count in her book, and 2.I don’t belong to any church she claims is a good Christian Church. Is that a form of persecution?

  9. poohpity says:

    I have to disagree Gary that is not at all what Paul taught. Paul before he met Jesus lived under the law and acted that out in his persecution of Christ followers. He gave reason to be hated and to be feared but as was mentioned above, “yet no one can explain the reason for this hatred” because love, grace and mercy give no reason for hatred but people do. If we hold our brothers/sisters to account we hold them to account on the lack of love, grace and mercy because if one does not hold that in their hearts their lives will show behaviors like Paul did before conversion and like you do in your teaching of law based religion and that does give reason for hatred but not because of Christ. You are right sometimes it is a hard lesson to hear and receive especially for someone who is gungho on telling people to live under the law again after they have been saved by grace not to sin again but free from it’s effect to do good.

  10. bec4jc says:

    * as she did with her nose in the Bible

  11. poohpity says:

    bec4jc, what is your response to their treatment?

  12. SFDBWV says:

    2014 will be my 67th year and I in no measure can lay claim to being any more of a Christian than any other.

    I have seen a lot in my lifetime, known pleasure and pain, heart ache and joy.

    A lifetime of the observations of all things I could and the study of many.

    I have learned many things and I am sure missed more.

    What a wonderful thing writing is; to be able to go back in time and peer into the imaginations and thoughts of those gone on long before our coming.

    I am sure they would stare in amazement at we today and shake their heads in disbelief at our confusion over things they thought simple.

    Some think we are an enlightened society better educated and more knowledgeable. Are we?

    As I look around today I wonder where are the Constantine’s and Charlemagne’s of the past, who could take up the cross as did such men and change the world in the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

    Because I believe God empowers man for His purposes, I believe such giant’s were men God needed to be in place just at the time He needed them to be.

    Because I believe what I have learned from the Word of God, I also believe the time of the Gentile is running out and understand what that means on the horizon.

    Jesus stood and wept for Jerusalem because He knew what was coming.

    Indeed we need to look to the past in order to know what the future holds and glean all the pearls of wisdom and gather our courage for the coming storm.

    We may be sojourners in a foreign world, but that does not mean we have not love for the world we are a part of and weep as does our Lord for it.

    Steve

  13. poohpity says:

    Aren’t there great hero’s of faith that do not have such notoriety that serve in their communities one person at a time with the Love of Christ. Helping people know how much they are cared for by our God by sharing the good news with them but maybe their name is not in the history books but it is written in the Book of life and they will receive their reward in heaven directly from the Hand of God?

  14. remarutho says:

    It seems to me, Pooh, that in the struggles you mention, the “winners” are largely silent and do not retaliate. The losers bray loudly about the ugliness and backwardness of Christ-followers — and their own right to “freedom from religion.” In fact, at the moment, freedom from Christ’s love *seems* possible. Only when everything high is made low and everything low is filled up will reality be restored.

    It is a matter of valley and mountain — honor and shame. The world sees it as it currently seems to be. Those who are trusting in Jesus see beyond the illusion that might makes right — and bad is good — and the powerful rule the world.

    It seems to me we have not yet seen the persecution and darkness that is possible as The Day approaches. May the Lord have mercy on us all.

    Maru

  15. remarutho says:

    The tragic murder in Columbine was the act of a deranged young man. The judgment on Phil Robertson has been done by an entertainment network — same difference as I see it. Whose rights are being upheld — and whose rights are being taken away? Who are the winners and who are the losers? We need not apply reason here, since these cases are outside the realm of reason, in my opinion. Maru

  16. djkeyboard says:

    Powerful. Does give one pause to ponder what would be said about us? We are in the world, but not supposed to be of the world. Yet, the church often goes out of its way to look and sound like the world. As do we personally. Lots of thoughts to marinate….

  17. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… to recap your post to me,
    “I have to disagree Gary that is not at all what Paul taught.”
    I never said that was all that Paul taught.
    But, what I did say was, “Part of the problem I see that others do not is this, when we “the church” step away form the hard teaching that says we must judge our brothers and sisters, or Chrisitiasns, we have already lost that battle and the good people no longer can take a stand against evil, because that is considered judgment!
    We should want to be judged and we should judge all others accordingly using all scriptural references on this subject and not just selecting the ones we like.”

    True to my accusation and to prove my point you do not like what I said Paul had taught about how the church should judge.

    If you feel that Paul has mis-spoken, and to appease your position we could just remove his teachings.

    But, those warnings that he taught to the churches of yester year, are the same problems that exist in the church today, and the same Head of the Church is Christ, so nothing has changed very much, accept that this age of the Church and its work in the world is not complete.

    I never refered to Paul’s pre-apostalic mission and the hatred that it and many other things in the wolrd “not mentioned” had brought into the world.

    I wonder if the early church had given the world any more mercy and love than the church of today, and why it is any different, or better because of Paul’s teachings, or better for our refusal to recognize their importance and relevancy today.
    We certainly have more of God’s word in our modern bibles then they did in the old days, so we should be even more effective for changing the world for Christ today, but we all know that the darkness is growing as well.
    I guess we could blame it on the church not sticking to the old plan, but we seem to want to attach blame just those Christians who do not agree with us, and the few easy softer verses we today like to share instead.
    We ignore the point that the message to the believers needs to be different than the one given to the unbeliever, because one is to set the hook for the catch, and the other is to get to about the remaining hard work of reeling us in, or out of the world’s way lest we are to become attracted again and swim the other away.
    Gary

  18. street says:

    I hope Diognetus can find me guilty of being a Christian.
    Awesome writing! Thanks for sharing.
    Diognetus knows God.

  19. belleu says:

    “They suffer dishonor, but that is their glory. They are defamed, but vindicated. A blessing is their answer to abuse, deference their response to insult.”

    This is where I see a difference in the Church today. We do not answer abuse and insults with blessings. We get angry and frightened. We go on TV to debate or write articles on how we Christians are attacked and the nation is in danger because of these attacks.

    As for judging fellow Christians, yes, Paul says to do that in your church and perhaps not allow them to fellowship with you, but Paul said to do this in order to save their souls. We are not to judge unbelievers – ever.

    After the Emperor Constantine became a Christian there was deadly persecution against anyone who didn’t agree with the Church. I would rather live in a country where there is too much freedom than too little. What do I care if people want to make movies that are lewd and violent? I don’t have to see them. At least we don’t have arenas where people are fed to lions or inquisitions where people are burned to death for what they believe. I like living now – in this generation of freedom of religion.

  20. BruceC says:

    Does this letter apply to our culture? In some ways I don’t think it does. But our culture; here in the US is not like other nations. I think this letter could apply to Christians living in China, southeast Asia, the Middle East, etc.; but not here. Here we see the effects of misunderstood and misguided freedoms. Miss-application of what our laws mean at their heart. Our humanistic culture is set on re-defining everything that blocks its progress towards its version of “utopia” where man himself is god.

    belleu,

    We may not have here in the US those things you describe in your last paragraph; but in other lands some things take place that are just as horrific.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  21. foreverblessed says:

    Bellue, yes I agree, we should bless where people, unbelievers go wrong
    In a little towns, where many christians live, (the bible belt in our country) there was an action this week of christians who put pamflets on the windows of a supermarktet who opens on Sunday. The pamflet said: we will shop in othere markets, because you open on Sunday.
    In my opinion, the christians should have put pamflets on the window that go like this:
    God bless you, even if you open up on Sunday, God bless you, may He give you love and peace in your hearts.

  22. SFDBWV says:

    My old friend Joe Kesterson is dead and gone now, but many memories of him remain with me.

    He was a retired communications worker from the old Bell telephone system and had been a Marine during the Second World War serving all throughout the Pacific.

    We were friends on many levels. But shared a *brotherhood* of both being in the Marine Corps, even though at different eras.

    The movie “Full Metal Jacket” came out and Joe went to see it, seeing how it was a look into the Marine Corps he thought it may parallel either his own experiences or the older movie with Jack Webb “The DI”.

    After having seen it he said to me he didn’t like the movie and when he was in they didn’t swear all the time like the movie showed.

    He was shocked to see the abrupt change that had taken place in just 30 some years in our culture.

    For any of you who like a peek into the past there are many letters that men had written home to their families during “The American Civil War”. In spite of the wretched horrible conditions they endured, you would find a people filled with eloquence a hope and faith in Jesus and never any foul language.

    If you are a student of history, you can have a lot of fun peering into the past cultures of mankind and view from that base the very stark and disturbing transition from then to today.

    The coming of Christianity changed the world dramatically and especially the customs of the countries Christians conquered.

    Temple worship, prostitution, drug use, cannibalism, among many other customs were replaced by the tenets of Christianity.

    These *sins* continued, but in secrete not as an open and accepted custom of its people.

    For some students of Scripture the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation 2 and 3not only represent seven actual churches and peoples, but also church ages, from first to last.

    Looking at the culture of Christianity from this view, one can clearly see the church to be in the *age* of the Laodicea church mentioned in Revelation 3: 14-19 with special attention to Revelation 3: 19, 20, 21, 22.

    Whereas the letter Mart has shared with us looks at the beginning of the age of Christianity in the world, Revelation shows us the complexion of the world prior to Christ’s return and the end of the age.

    Steve

  23. Artle says:

    The letter seems to be descriptive and timeless. I think it fits today as much as it did when written. I also think it is as applicable to the USA as any other country.

    If this letter does not describe a Christian of today, is the subject person a Christian??

  24. poohpity says:

    Very good question, Artle.

    foreverblessed, Sounds like what Paul wrote to the Galatians 6:7-10 NIV. We sow blessings then we will reap blessings and if someone shows us hatred, anger or persecution sow blessing anyway.

    I know for myself I get stuck at times wanting to apply God’s Word to others then miss what the Lord is trying to teach me. No sooner do I begin to write something then the Lord says, “but do you not do the same things?” then I have to delete and it is very hard when it comes out of my mouth cause I can not delete that but I can stop and think before I say anything whether it is beneficial or encouraging.

    I think in it all frequent self evaluation whether I am living by the fruits of the Spirit or the fruits of the flesh takes so much time I do not have the time to look at other Christians unless it is to share the wonders of the grace we live under and the struggles, faults and failures we share.

  25. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Second, or third actually, time for this letter. I wonder what it is in this letter that resonates so strongly with Mart. It is a good discussion starter.

    What I see is that this letter was written about 100 to 200 years after the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I think at that time Christianity and Christians were a very new thing. This was not a time like ours where news traveled instantly. Probably at that time, most people (99.9%) had never heard of Jesus. Figuring out Christians was a brand new thing to do. They didn’t have a 2000 year old history as we do today.

    I still think the main point from this letter, that we can receive today, is that Christians ought not to be caught up in this world, this life, social expectations, the battles for acceptance, etc.

    In that day Christians accepted poverty with thankfulness, abuse with blessings, misunderstanding with forgiveness, hate with love…

    From this letter, it seems that Christians were not trying to stand out and make their presence and beliefs known with powerful displays or campaigns to change everyone around them.

    They shared their beliefs by simply having them.

    In 1 Corinthians, Paul talks of how the message of God is foolishness to those without the Spirit. I think it is the same now as it was then. Christians appear foolish for their beliefs to an unbelieving world. 1 Corinthians 1:18-25, 1 Corinthians 2:14.

    Christians, I believe, are not embarrassed or humiliated to be thought fools. 1 Corinthians 3:18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may be wise.

  26. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All –

    It seems to me the apologists of our day, William Lane Craig, Ravi Zacharias and Dinesh D’Souza for example (among many others) offer the updated form of the disciple’s defense of the Christian faith. The portion of the letter before us is just as relevant as the things these 21 c. apologists have done (radio, books and debates).

    I once heard William Lane Craig speak – not in a debate setting, but at a symposium. One major conclusion he has come to over many years of gladiatorial effort for the faith is that, bottom line, atheists simply do not want any appetite or desire to be curbed. The famous atheist, Christopher Hitchens, comes to mind. He was known for outrageous licentiousness and heavy drinking, as well as brilliant argument against God. He died too young – perhaps partly because of his lifestyle.

    In the passage you quote, Mart, the disciple writes:

    “The body hates the soul and wars against it, not because of any injury the soul has done it, but because of the restriction the soul places on its pleasures. Similarly, the world hates the Christians, not because they have done it any wrong, but because they are opposed to its enjoyments.”

    I wonder whether all the elaborate arguments and “proofs” that God doesn’t exist are not just a stubborn denial of our fallen state. The reality is we are not morally or ethically independent of our Creator. The only answer to that childish notion is love. Pro-actively emulating Jesus is the “cure” for rebellion. Saying I am right could never make me righteous.

    Maru

  27. remarutho says:

    Hoped to write “21st c. apologists.” Maru

  28. Artle says:

    It should be obvious that you cannot tell a Christian by outward appearance. Not so obvious may be that you cannot tell a Christian by where they live, work or go to church. Even less obvious is that you cannot tell a Christian by their actions or speech. The only true indication is the heart, which our eyes alone cannot see and our ears alone cannot hear. (Isaiah 11:3 NASB)

  29. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Artle – Amen. I need to remember that and quit being so quick to judge based on outward appearance.

    Maru – your comment “One major conclusion he has come to over many years of gladiatorial effort for the faith is that, bottom line, atheists simply do not want any appetite or desire to be curbed.” That struck a chord with me. I agree.

    I also think that telling someone to stop seeking after their sinful lusts only adds fuel to their destructive fire. Only when the Spirit speaks to their heart will they hear the Truth.

    How can I change a person that is lost? I can’t. I have tried. I can only surrender them to God who loves them even more than I do. Pray continuously for the hearts of the lost to hear Him. I can only trust God, obey Him, love Him.

    The father allowed his “prodigal” son to follow his sinful desires. Following the path of selfish desires without restraint is the quickest way to come to the realization that sin will never satisfy. Eventually you are faced with the abyss.

    When we hold out the love of God we reveal the only thing that will ever truly satisfy the soul.

    I already hear the message of “we must preach repentance.” But first a person must hear the calling of the Lord, then the overwhelming need for repentance is clear to the human heart.

  30. oneg2dblu says:

    Artle…I will have to challenge that position of saying you can not tell a Christain from any outward appearance.
    Then, how could Paul say to the church to choose a man you know has the Holy Spirit to serve in the church, if there is no wasy of ever seeing it?
    I think lifestyle is the great common denominator when looking for any Christ Follower.
    Just because Following Christ by its very definition and the biblical descriptions that clearly says that the disciples droppoed what they were doing and lived quite differently.
    If that does not ring true for anyone who has been Following Christ for any period of time, Like my Pastor says, “then nothing has changed.”
    There is a very good chance that the unchanged person who claims he is a Christian has not received the Holy Spirit and probably needs to Repent and Return, and recommit to Following Christ, because they have walked away or backslidden and need to change direction again.
    “If nothing changes, nothing changes.”
    The bible is full of many a living testimony of people encountering Christ and changing their ways, and many were radically obvious to the world.
    To me, if the change does not show in their lifestyle as well, then the whole reason for Christ dying for our fallen condition, or our evil behaviors, as was quoted for us in Paul’s writing used today in the ODB lesson.
    I would ask only this, how many actual known serial killers are preaching in the pulpits today, how many known rapists, how many known town drunks, or known child molesters performing for us as professing Christians but have a hidden witness within them to the changing power of Christ being part of their lives?
    If we could define what “repent and be saved” actually means then change would be “very obvious” to many, and hiding it would be evil.
    I’m not speaking about any absolute purity, or any reaching of perfection while we are here in these esarthly bodies, but some changes should be obvious.
    In my opinion, Gary

  31. oneg2dblu says:

    tracey… yes the call must come from God first and then the repentance can be real and well supported by the Holy Spirit deposited within every beleiver.

    After all, the Holy Spirit is the Helper not the fleeting, momentary, or useless possession, but the Gift of God given for a purpose, which I will call the changer, from depravity to divine, but it is a progressive process and a lifelong endeavor.
    Gary

  32. poohpity says:

    I have to agree Gary there is a change and it will be visible in behaviors, character and the desires of our hearts. Seeking to know God better, living for Him and sharing the Good News. Like anyone you love you want to find out all one can about them but it can also be similar to when we take that loved one for granted and forget what drew us to them in the first place. The fire of that was first experience when we first believed can go out if we aren’t careful.

    One of the contrasts with the 1st century believers is we have far more to distract us and fill our time. Our time is taken away from God and most often even from our families as well.

  33. oneg2dblu says:

    Yes pooh… Our time is the one thing we all have in common, we all only have those same 60 seconds in the minute, the same 60 minutes in the hour and so on, no one gets any extra time out of that ever ticking clock.

    Some may get more years or time to live here than others, but how they use that time will be accounted for on judgment day, so I’m told.
    To me our witness is one of those elemnets where our time is many times multiplied by a world who does stop look and listen, or watch our every move, how we act, how we live, and what we do with our time, and especially if we claim to be a Chrisitian.

  34. Artle says:

    There are visible and audible changes in a person who moves from unbelief to belief. But that does not equate to all who look and sound like Christians are Christians.

  35. oneg2dblu says:

    Tracey… that was huge… “The father allowed his “prodigal” son to follow his sinful desires. Following the path of selfish desires without restraint is the quickest way to come to the realization that sin will never satisfy. Eventually you are faced with the abyss.”

    Are we not all prodicals as well, as Our Heavenly Father has given us the desires of our hearts through our free will choices also, but then as we confess our fallen postion to Him, He implants His Helper into the heart, and our free will is then gently always leaning toward the Father’s Will.
    That to me is the most powerful changing element in our newly forgiven, born again life.
    Gary

  36. quietgrace says:

    I have a very personal story of God taught me about enduring persecution. I was attending a Charismatic fellowship and during worship experienced a vision of Christ who turned to me and said, “You are released, you are healed”. Just before the vision came the Holy Spirit convicted me of a sin in my life of which I repented. I told everyone there of my experience and others were also convicted and asked for prayer. It was an amazing and humbling experience. While many could see I had been healed and believed my experience, others accused me of lying or being healed by the devil. I was crushed by the naysayers until Christ again appeared to me, but this time He showed me the holes in his hands, a reminder that suffering is what I am called to, as He was, and as we all are.

    I live in a free country and enjoy many freedoms even as a Christian, but still suffer persecution mostly from non-believers in my family, job and neighborhood, which I take with a grain of salt now knowing that to this I and the rest of us called Christian are called. Thankfully I do not suffer alone as I have Christian friends and acquaintances who pray for me as I for them.

    Thanks for the article Mart, it’s a good reminder and sign that in today’s world we can still be on the same path, or Way, as the early followers of Christ.

    Wishing you blessings of great Joy this Holiday season.

  37. poohpity says:

    Artle, that may be true but would it not be better for us to leave that in the hand of God when one day it will be the angels that will separate the wheat from the tares and I do not think that fits into our job description. Jesus taught in the parable of soils 4 different types of people that receive Gods’ Word. (Matt 13:19-23 NIV; Mark 4:14-20 NIV; Luke 8:11-15 NIV) I think we need to see how that applies to our own lives and not others.

  38. belleu says:

    This is an interesting topic and I’m enjoying reading all the comments. I do agree our culture is very sinful. I’m sorry for the children being raised with sex and violence being portrayed everywhere. I liked it better in the 1950s when there was censorship. I also believe in freedom of speech, and when Phil Robertson said what he thought sin was, well, I think he has the right to say what he believes without being persecuted. In my opinion, to say you believe that homosexuality is a sin is not hatred, unless you say it with hatred.

    I just read a sermon by Charles Kingsley last night and he says this:

    “Know, that when all your arguments and philosophies have failed to teach men what they ought to do, one earnest penitent look at Christ upon his cross will teach them. That their hearts will leap up in answer, and cry, “If this be God, I can believe in him. If this be God, I can trust him. If this be God, I can obey him.”

    I remember the day I went forward at an evangelistic meeting to give my life to God. The previous sermons had been on prophecy and the Ten Commandments. But that day the pastor spoke on Jesus giving his life for us on the cross. I remember feeling full of love for God and thankfulness for what he did as I got up and walked down the aisle. It was the cross that changed me.

  39. poohpity says:

    :-) it is the love shown through the Cross that changes us all. Those who wrote in the OT looked forward to it and by faith it changed their lives too!! Love helps us go through all things and hope for the things to come, depending on it, bringing joy down to the very root of our existence knowing about it.

  40. oneg2dblu says:

    Artle… I beleive that the Holy Spirit within each believer helps us discern who are real and who are giving us lip service.
    The only thing I can say is that we must test the spirits that we encounter through using God’s word as the filter, or the developer bringing all things into the light, then discerning which we are dealing with, truth or falsehood.
    That would probably take more than a quick glance and passing an immediate judgment on our part, but actions do speak quite loudly and as pooh has stated, the wheat and tares will have their day of final judgment, and that is not our job in the here and now.
    But we must use the Holy Spirit to help us discern which spirit is right, for us to decide for ourselves who we will believe and follow.
    Lest we be deceived in our own thinking, we have the divine power living in us already and that Holy Spirit will not be deceived by a false witness, or will it be tempted beyond what we can endure.
    2 Peter 1:3 (NIV) “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his owm glory and goodness.”
    The rest of 2 Peter is very powerful for us to read and apply as well. Gary

  41. remarutho says:

    Good Evening BTA Friends –

    The turn of another year is a good time to lean into the meaning of Jesus’ gift to all who acknowledge his holy love. Even while darkness persists, God’s glory cannot be extinguished. The forces in opposition to God’s unfathomable love will not stand. Like Nebuchadnezzar, all will finally acknowledge that the universe coheres by the will of our Creator God.

    Mart, you quote the disciple saying:

    “It is by the soul, enclosed within the body, that the body is held together, and similarly, it is by the Christians, detained in the world as in a prison, that the world is held together. The soul, though immortal, has a mortal dwelling place; and Christians also live for a time amidst perishable things, while awaiting the freedom from change and decay that will be theirs in heaven”

    Have believed for a long time that there are, in many unknown places, those who faithfully pray and worship and adore Jesus, and their prayers and devotion are even now sustaining the world as we know it.

    Maru

  42. bec4jc says:

    poohpity says:
    December 27, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    bec4jc, what is your response to their treatment?

    Jesus said that we would have enemies within our own families. He also said to pray for your enemies and those who persecute you for His sake. So, that is what I do and I’m pleasant to them when we gather together. I just posted this because I thought that maybe it was persecution and that is what was being talked about in the posts before mine.

  43. SFDBWV says:

    The underlying object of this subject is the * invisible* *visible* Christian citizen.

    He, for all appearances, is identical to any other citizen, yet by the very action of following a moral lifestyle stands out from the amoral crowd.

    In today’s culture he obeys the law of the land, is active in civic as well as voluntary activities, he leads by example and is also quietly and secretly in prayer for his brothers in faith and especially his fellow countrymen.

    The world hates him, makes fun of him, attempts to discredit him, silence him, and works at erasing him from the face of the earth.

    He stands in opposition to the world, as a witness against it by his very lifestyle.

    Maru you are right judgment will not come to the world as long as he is in it, because of Him who is in the Christian heart.

    Woe to the world when the Christian is removed from it.

    Steve

  44. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    As 2014 approaches, I hope to uphold and to stay ever closer to the New Covenant. Prayer must be a good part of this, it seems to me. (1 Thessalonians 5:16, 17, 18)

    In Him,
    Maru

  45. Artle says:

    Pooh & Gary, Agree the judgment is not ours to do. My earlier comments were simply expanding on the idea of the “indistinguishable” nature of Christians in the population as a whole. Interesting thing about wheat and tares is that they are also indistinguishable for a time.

  46. poohpity says:

    bec4jc, it does say that there will be division in our own families due do one’s faith in Christ and your persecution by them is all the more reason to shout with joy and love them anyway. :-)

    Yes Artle, sometimes it does take a closer look and careful examination especially of those who write books or teach saying they are Christians maybe that is why we were asked to be as shrewd as snakes and have a discerning spirit. If Satan can appear as an angel of light then we can be fooled if we do not watch out.

  47. oneg2dblu says:

    I beleive we are taught that the workers the God paced in the field could recognize that the field had more than just good seed planted in it, and when they asked the owner if they should pull out those bad plants, they were told to wait for the harvest because they could possibly destory many good plants in doing so.
    That means we workers can recognize or judge the good from the bad, and we need to understand God waters both and both grow until the harvest, then all will be gathered and judged accordingly, and the bad ones thrown into the fire.
    Gary

  48. poohpity says:

    I find much comfort in realizing that Christ transcends culture, social economic status, centuries, languages, gender and race. To me it is so reassuring the stability found in our relationship to the God who is over all and brings all together in unity for common cause and meaning as we keep our eyes, worship, hearts and souls focused on Him alone and our eternal home as we are sojourners on this earth.

  49. poohpity says:

    I think what the letter was referring to as invisible is the soul and Christ who lives in us is also invisible but the character would be visible in how we chose to live our lives. It would be nice if it was very distinctive to everyone we come in contact with. Not because we preach to them but because we live for Jesus and we act like it. (Col 3:12 NIV) No matter what time a Christian finds themselves in the substance of their lives is not dictated by the world but by the invisible Spirit that resides in our hearts.

  50. Mart De Haan says:

    Good discussion! One of the things I’ve wondered in reading this letter once again is to what extent the description is a realistic or idealistic reflection of 2nd or 3rd century followers of Christ.

    In any case, the letters reflect an ability to keep perspective. As dark as the culture was, the letter reflects a desire to use the darkness as an opportunity to live as children of the light.

    At 5:00 on Dec 28 belleu talks about the surrounding culture not with a sense of anger, but rather sadness—and then uses a wonderful quote and personal story of conversion that suggests the power of being able to see a God who suffers with and for us.

  51. foreverblessed says:

    What a great letter to share with us to read and to ponder. When do we ever get that message?

    I found some verse that resound the intend of the letter .
    Rom 8
    You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

    12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

    14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

    And I was thinking all the little things happening here and now, that are against us, even illnesses, or difficuls housemates, should help us to train to endure as a christian. and to always rejoice, as Maru gave some verses, 1 Thes 5:16-18
    1 Petr 2:19, 1 Peter 4:13
    But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

  52. foreverblessed says:

    To go on in this subject, to be trained to always rejoice,
    When I am sick, naturally my thoughts go out to all that is going wrong in my body. I am now training myself to immediately focus all my thoughts on Jesus: He is our Healer, He is stronger then all darkness. He is my Lord.
    I also have to say, how difficult that is, that the next minute my thoughts are on the body again. So a training, isn’t that being a disciple, being disciplined? BUt as many of you know, I have this struggle with miagraine, but it is good traing ground for learning to endure, and to even start singing, like a Paul and Silas did in that terrible dungeon of that prison.

  53. SFDBWV says:

    Reading Marts added comment this morning reminded me of the fact that God is the Father of us all. Jesus reminded us that as a Father God knows what is best for us and wants the best for us.

    What parent hasn’t tried to keep their children from harm only to be forced to watch them disobey and be harmed as a result?

    Matt will tell me often, when I tell him I love him, that I have to because I am his dad. I wish it were true that all dads’ loved their children, but I know some do not.

    Matt’s friend Mere called last evening to say she was coming down today with her children so Matt could have a visit and give them the gifts he had gotten for them. She had planned on being here much sooner except her little 4 year old had been sick Christmas day.

    A parent who loves their children would rather be sick themselves than see their child sick at any level.

    We are but a shadow of our Creator, we understand love at our level, God’s love is far above ours and even our ability to fully comprehend.

    It makes sense then to see that God our heavenly Father hurts for each and every one of and it most often we who hurt Him.

    The evil people we see and deem evil, breaks God’s heart and He weeps for them as any parent would their only beloved child.

    The best we can do for God is love them through His eyes not ours.

    Steve

  54. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Mart: Thanks for the added perspective on the letter. It does seem to describe the ideal that Christians should reach for. To me, it is a reminder that when I am weak, tired and selfish, my focus needs to be readjusted back to worship of God.

    Foreverblessed put it very well: “When I am sick, naturally my thoughts go out to all that is going wrong in my body. I am now training myself to immediately focus all my thoughts on Jesus: He is our Healer, He is stronger then all darkness. He is my Lord.”

  55. poohpity says:

    I wonder if one is defending the faith of Christians if it is not realistic because it may have been by observation. I have seen people who’s behavior was like what was described not many but they exist. It is similar to much of what is written in the Bible and I believe the Bible to be truthful and authentic. If it were not possible why would we be lead to believe it is?

    The distractions of the world especially in America push God out and why depend on Him when one is usually so self sufficient, self absorbed, self important and filled with selfish ambition. God seems to take 4th or 5th place in the life of a believer giving Him 2 hours on Sunday and then we begin to think the Christian life described is idealistic not realistic as we fit God into our agenda not us fitting into His.

    foreverblessed, it is a disciplined life, I think that is why one of the fruits of the Spirit is self control but it is also a life that we do not always do the right thing in the right way and recognizing that gives us a humble spirit that helps us to show grace, mercy and forgiveness.

  56. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… thanks for revisiting the letter. It is worth another reading. : )
    Like scripture, one exposure does not accomplish all its intentions, as we may be caught up in a different frame of reference from when we first encountered it.

    Funny how the letter says you can not recognize a Chrisitian by the customs, or city, or nation they live in and yet the religious extremists of this day who hate all Christians chose to specifically attack America calling her the great satan.
    Yet, we have a President who says we are “no longer” a Christian nation, both seem to stand in opposition to the premise of this accute blindness applied to Christians.
    What it does explain however is that evil will find a way to Hate, and what it hates most is anything that threatens to expose its deceptive presence.
    As terrorism has its hayday preying on the innocent in the here and now, God will have His day to judge this evil for all Eternity.
    As we who have no nation here witness this horrific unbalane in justice in the dark hour we live, there will be a day when God’s light will expose every evil and bring it to justice.
    As we today, Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem, as a well recoginized city, a target to be destoryed by the very same evil that hates Christians.
    Go figure. Gary

  57. oneg2dblu says:

    To me, all evil will always try to hide and shrink when in the Presence of God, whether in the unseen world, or the very obvious.
    Evil in any and all its forms already knows that we whom God has chosen will prevail and have ultimate victory over it.
    It seems to me the dark world already knows the end of the book even if they claim they have not read it.

    For Praise God that He has planted eternity in the hearts of mankind, and a void where only the Presence of Jesus Christ or Lord and Our God can ever fill.

  58. poohpity says:

    Gary, if there is so much evil in the world maybe we as Christians are not doing our job of overcoming evil with good. MLK overcame the evil of segregation by doing good and our recent conversation of Mandela also overcame the evil of apartheid by forgiveness/good. We can make a choice to be part of the problem or part of the solution.

  59. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… I believe the solution lies in Jesus Christ, and the problem lies in the heart’s of man and his sin nature that rejects Christ, rejects the Holy Bible as the authority for how to live one’s life, and then lives in disobedience to God’s word, laws, and commands as if having no fear.
    I do not blame Christians for the state that the world is currently in, for Satan roams freely and devours who he may by God’s permission.
    But, I am still learning and these are only my thoughts as I have not yet learned how to personally control the thoughts of every other evil man who still possess his own free will bent on doing evil, until God calls them,
    I can only pray, “Come Jesus!”
    Gary

  60. poohpity says:

    Isn’t returning good for evil obedience? Isn’t showing mercy to those who do not deserve it obedience? I guess I have not read where it is our job to control the thoughts or actions of others, only my own. If they could see us living out our faith would that not be the best example to lead them to Christ rather than trying to control them? If those who even call themselves Christians reject the Bible by not reading it how can we expect anyone to want to read it when it is used as a means to judge, criticize, accuse and condemn rather than a means to understand God’s amazing grace. People used the Bible to start the evil of racism and the apartheid.

    I thought the Bible was to apply to each of our own lives not to apply to others. Well unless we learn how to treat others through it.

  61. BruceC says:

    I have been reading but not posting.

    I would like to wish all a very blessed 2014! Especially for those who are facing health problems( my wife and I both know that)and for those who are helping others through life that are coping with health issues.
    God be with all of you my brothers and sister in Christ!!

    And stay warm! Brrrrrrrrr!

    Come quickly Lord Jesus!!

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria@

  62. Mart De Haan says:

    When it comes to the challenge of weighing our relationship to culture, seems to me that it is difficult to speak beyond ourselves of human evil and divine wrath without referring to our own predicament apart from Christ.

    Jesus seems to speak with such tenderness and understanding when he says, “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him! 12″In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

  63. SFDBWV says:

    Looking back over this year I must admit this has been the fastest year of my life.

    It seems it quit snowing I cut the grass and it began snowing again…poof one year gone.

    In some ways it has been a very eventful year and in others just the passing of time.

    Matthew lost 44.2 pounds this year for a total of 144.8 since he began his diet and exercise routine.

    We had a ribbon cutting ceremony and opened a new bridge between our community and the neighboring state of Maryland; an effort of nearly 25 years to get accomplished.

    My soon to be 95 year old mother in law had a small stroke in the spring, but survived it to still be able to live independently.

    We buried too many old friends.

    Every day Matt asks me what’s the purpose of living and every time he asks I remind him we don’t live for ourselves, but rather for each other.

    I have come to learn that no matter who you are you are there because someone needs you to be, even or especially if you don’t know it.

    Love is the greatest gift of all.

    Steve

  64. remarutho says:

    Good Morning & Happy New Year to All —

    Had to chuckle at your quip, Steve:

    “It seems it quit snowing I cut the grass and it began snowing again…poof one year gone.”

    In the Pacific NW at sea level, we must strike “snow” and put in “rain.” When it dries out even a little, we crank up the old mower quickly.

    Thanks for reminding everyone of the solid foundation that is the love of Jesus. We love because he first loved us. Have made a great exodus west this past year. Now, the whole family is able to be in the same state.

    My mom would have been 99 this year, but is gone now. One of the ninety-something members of my fellowship says, “At my age a thing has to persist for five years before I take notice — one year is nothing, because time seems to accelerate from age 80 on.”

    Just got word of the death of a dear sister in Christ — too young to get away from us so soon, it seems to me. Will miss her, but there is rejoicing in heaven.

    Love is the greatest gift, as you say.

    Grace & Peace in 2014,
    Maru

  65. poohpity says:

    This last year I asked God to help me understand the full importance of Grace and I learned about a teacher named Joseph Prince who has opened my mind to the fullness of it’s meaning. This morning as I read the last 3 Chapters of Revelation, John concludes it with “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.” Another year stands before us to experience God’s Grace and the ability to grow in our knowledge and understanding of the One we worship.

    It just blows my mind that God has opened up a way for us to get to know Him up close and personal. How amazing is that? Lord of Lords; King of Kings and yet friend and brother. In Genesis God walked and talked with mankind and it ends in Revelation that again we will walk and talk with Him face to face but the oh so neat part is while we are here we can walk and talk with Him too by faith. God stays with us through it all, never changing but changing us to be conformed to the likeness of His Son.

    The grace of our Lord be with you all as we start a new year looking forward to what God will reveal about Himself to each of us. Romans 12:2-3 NIV

  66. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… we do agree, we both can not ever control the thoughts of other men bent on doing evil.
    Which was my point…
    I never claimed I read that point anywhere, but you’ve missed my use of sardonic wit in saying that, I have not yet learned to.
    My bad?
    Sorry for that bunny trail you are now chasing.

    Will we Christians ever change Satan’s intentions by showing him good, for he is bent on evil and freely choses to live and die in it, just as those “terrorists” who flew our planes into the World Trade Center buildings, and the recent terrorist bombers who blow themselves up only to kill innocent others.

    That was my whole point, that the “evil of terrorism” exists, and not because of a lack of good in the world and not because of any Chrsitains lack of doing good.

    Certainly not our failure to read the bible or show them enough love, but I will admit, that I have never knowingly hugged a terrorist.

    Maybe what we can only see or point to is that some Christian somewhere that has failed to show them enough love, but I do not think the same way.

    How can we show that kind of evil already done, good for the evil they have done?

    As Hillary has said, What difference does it make now?

    Perhaps I’ve read differently that evil exists regardless of all the good we can show it.

    We do know this… that even God has not withheld His goodness from them, because the rain He provides falls on both good and evil.

    Did you know that telling Evil you love them may make them hate you even more?

    Is it lack of love that fuels terroism?

    Or, is it false religious thinking and teaching, using the controlling of minds that makes them strap a bomb on and go into the world to kill others who they think their god has told them to?

    Love is God’s light and evil hates any light that exposes and brings to light their beloved evil.

    Only the sting of conviction brought by the word, the law, the Holy Spirit, can change the darkness within mankind, to then change them, to seek His Everlasing Light.

    Remember all mankind, even terrorists think they are good enough, as all a man’s ways seem right to him.

    I think I have read that somewhere in the bible it is only when one recognizes they are a sinner, that one can ever change that which makes them sin, following their flesh or a false spirit.

    Unfortunately, that correcting equation is the work of the written word of God, the Law of God, and the Holy Spirit, not the goodness shown by another mortal man.
    Have a blessed New Year,
    Gary

  67. oneg2dblu says:

    Thanks Bruce,
    A.) For holding your thoughts and not posting, or just reading.
    B.) For finally sharing your thoughts to us, thoughts keeping us far from the challenging points in the letter.

    You may not look outwardly to the rest of the world like one of those ugly Christians they see, but inwardly you are definitely seen as Christian to us all
    who can see your spirit.

    I would call that a double blessing… : )
    Gary

  68. poohpity says:

    Yes it is the lack of love that fuels terrorism and every other sort of evil. If you have never loved a terrorist how do you know it does not work?

    Hillary was wrong when she said, “what difference does it make?” The difference was no one was paying attention to the cries for help and then after not holding anyone accountable especially her or her boss for their lack of engagement in the the affairs they were elected and appointed to take care of. That is the same “excuse” many give but it does make a difference, a very big difference.

  69. belleu says:

    I don’t think it matters if our love for evil people changes them or not. What matters is if we are learning to love everyone and seeing everyone as a child of God. He created us all and we all belong to Him. Psalm 50:12

    Learning how to love is one thing God teaches us on this journey. I don’t find it easy to love those who hurt me, but I’ve been learning and it feels good. It takes immediate prayer and giving those bad or hurt feelings to God every time you feel them. It is for our good we are taught to love the unlovable, and to also learn we aren’t so lovable either.

  70. oneg2dblu says:

    belleu… thanks, that puts it all in proper perspective.

    Love is never looking for anything in return, not even the canceling of an evil, even one done to you.

    It is very hard to love anyone that unconditionally, actually impossible for sinful man, for that is love in the purest form and only through a Holy God can man ever possess it.

    But, I do believe through Christ all things are possible, even this unconditional love.

    Gary

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