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Theology With a Limp

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Jacob walked with a limp after his encounter with God (Genesis 32:31). As a result, according to Genesis, when his descendants ate the meat of an animal, they had a practice of not eating the tendon attached to the socket of a hip (Gen 32:32). Since Jacob’s people have given various explanations to this event, it would probably be a safe guess to say some have kept the tradition out of superstition, while others have done so out of reverence.

While recently reading a book by Austin Fischer I was impressed by the author’s reflection on this ancient story. While talking about the danger of trying to push our knowledge of the Bible into a tight logical system that satisfies our own understanding, Fischer urged the idea of theology with a limp.

Since then, I’ve thought a lot about that simple phrase and idea. What could be more important than approaching even the most basic themes of the Bible, and a resulting knowledge of God, with all due humility?

Seems to me that we hear echoes of such a limp in the Apostle Paul after writing about God’s past and future dealings with Israel and the nations. After penning words that have resulted in countless pages of interpretation and speculation Paul takes pause to exclaim, “Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!” (Rom 11:33).

As we think back on our last post and conversation, seems to me that so many of our problems with the Bible are not with what it says, but about what we think it is saying about the questions we bring to it—without humility due a Father who bends so low to speak to his little ones.


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116 Responses to “Theology With a Limp”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Seems to me Mart for a man who is as busy as you are you have a lot of time to read. I hope you find that which you are looking for.

    For an unsettled mind one will almost always be looking for the agreeable or explanation that for the moment satisfies.

    The Hebrew religion has a great many traditions as well as holidays and customs; I have a very difficult time keeping up with them. I suppose somewhere in the back of my mind it is *nice* to know information, but not *need* to know.

    Mart I purposely fought the urge to respond to some of the subject matter discussed in the thread of conversation in the last topic, as I had already said that people have forgotten that the Bible is the *Holy* Word of God and not treated with the respect it deserves, especially by people who want to *pick* it apart in order to *feel* better or even superior to those who actually wrote it.

    Jesus offers us a peace whereas the Scripture is concerned. Simply believe and trust, but it comes with a cost.

    It costs you your intellect, your curious criticism and need for what it says to align with what you want to believe.

    Yesterday I was ask to conduct a grave side service for a woman whom was a very strong believer. She remained faithful to her Lord all throughout her cancer treatments up and unto her death.

    It was a blessing and a pleasure to speak to her husband, children, grandchildren, even some great grandchildren and friends as they came to pay tribute to someone who loved them all.

    Funny how all the conversations, opinions and intellectual pursuits have no place nor purpose at the end of the road, only what you have come to believe as you move on beyond this journey into the next.

    Steve

  2. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    Am slowly and somewhat painfully making my way through the Gospel of John these days. The pain is that of self-examination. Having come through Jesus’ proclamation, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life,” (John 8:12) I must press on to John 9:1. The massive theme of Light will continue to prevail as I soldier on. There is an epic battle between Light and darkness — blindness and sight coming my way!

    I did not suffer through theological systematics for long. I gave it up early on, because there are always pieces left over when the “clock” is assembled. (to my mind, at least) Theology is not tidy. It is messy, and I can see how Jewish butchers would lay aside the hip tendon in reverence of Jacob/Israel’s struggle with the mighty angel of God!

    I do not set up a competition between Calvin and Wesley either, though I tend toward the more Arminian view of God’s grace personally. So, I cling to Jesus’ promise as my own (John 8:31, 32). I appreciate Pope Francis’ question, “Who am I to judge?” Nobody, as far as I can tell, is performing perfectly when it comes to discipleship.

    I am not yet familiar with Austin Fischer’s journey, but I have seen others’ changes in the theology they live out before the world. “Love Wins,” in my mind, indicates that we do not know everything about everything — least of all how the Creator God judges specific cases, even our own. (1 Cor 4:1, 2, 3, 4)

    Blessings,
    Maru

  3. quietgrace says:

    Good morning all!
    Mart I really enjoy your thoughtful posts, and this current one regarding the ‘limp’ and ‘humility’ of approaching theology is just what I think about a lot.

    In the last post telliot brought up about how the OT was translated differently by the Jews from how we today translate it. Your reference to the various explanations was so very interesting and I will be looking at that site a lot in order to gain more understanding of our history with the scriptures.

    As I have said before, there is so much about God that we don’t know and will not know until we see Him ‘face to face’. Just as a child doesn’t really know all about their parents, if they learn to submit to the good and not fight it they will grow in wisdom, just as Jesus did. As a child must be humble to learn so should we also learn in all humility, and with grace toward our fellow sojourners.

    Blessings in Christ Jesus,
    Grace

  4. quietgrace says:

    Maru I love those scriptures you quoted in I Corinthians. Such a balanced and graceful way of looking at ourselves and others.

  5. remarutho says:

    Yes Grace!

    It is comforting in a world of accusers to know that the only true judgment comes from our loving Creator God and his Son Jesus! It doesn’t make me any more “right,” but I am assured of being in the best possible hands! God is good and filled with compassion for my poor efforts. His love endures forever. (Psalm 136)

  6. poohpity says:

    It is amazing what one can fit in to read when the TV is turned off.

    It seems our understanding of something is a fight against pride continually. That would mean one has to give up control to ask.(Pro 3:5 NLT; Jeremiah 33:2-3 NLT) Asking for direction or seeking knowledge would mean we do not know it all or have all the answers. We are so limited because after all we are only a speck of sand in this vast universe constrained by time, circumstance, experiences and more than anything our own minds and thoughts. There is so much out there yet to God I bet it seems like a blink, if that even can describe it. Yet asking God anything is often left out again because of pride and to think that this one speck of sand is important to God is totally unfathomable to me.

    I am so glad it is not required of me to know much only Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

  7. poohpity says:

    Talking about things we have yet to know does not give reason to ignore the things we are given to know. It does seem we walk with a limp when it comes to things of God but we still have a leg to walk on. Things we can cling to so that we will not be lead down a wrong path because we can always compare to what we are taught in scripture. Ignoring that, we ignore wisdom. Ask, seek and knock does not mean that God will reveal all His secrets but He seems to reveal enough to give us reason to trust, depend, and experience Him in our lives through grace so undeserved yet so available. The really great thing is He knows the heart and can tell those who want to know Him while there is a possibility to fool others God never falls into that deception.

  8. quietgrace says:

    Maru reading I Cor. 4:1-4 I continued on to v.5. Therefore is a strong word putting emphasis on the previous verses. As I viewed I Cor. 4:1-5 it puts things in context as far as being directed how to think of others. A very humble way to trust God for the outcome of our faith and that of others.

  9. belleu says:

    Hi Everyone. It has been interesting to read the comments on the last post and this one.

    Humility is a good word for how we should approach the Bible and our concept of what God is like. I have said before that God has often surprised me. He answers prayers in ways I would never have imagined. Twice this past week my mother prayed about doing something she didn’t think she needed to do or even should do. But God spoke to her heart and encouraged her to do it, despite the logic she was using.

    Isaiah 55:9 says that God’s ways and thoughts are so much higher than ours that they reach to the heavens. We are down in this dark earth. We need him to fill us with his thoughts and ways.

    We should all be open to interpretations of Scripture that differ from ours. After all, we could actually be wrong! I don’t think there is any danger in studying all kinds of Christian beliefs while asking God to guide us into truth. He will do it as he has promised.

  10. quietgrace says:

    Belleu I so agree with you. Thinking of a time when Christians actually believed the Bible supported slavery, and also the issue of women preachers which is still in disagreement with some; and now the current debate about homosexuality. I thing humility is the best way to approach scripture.

  11. remarutho says:

    Yes, Grace, Pooh and Belleu —

    Mart reminds us that the heavenly Father bends very low to speak to us here on the ground. Any failure of humility on our part is so glaringly wrong.

    Mining that passage of 1 Corinthians brings more treasure: “So don’t judge anyone until the Lord returns. He will show what is hidden in the dark and what is in everyone’s heart. Then God will be the one who praises each of us.

    Friends, I have used Apollos and myself as examples to teach you the meaning of the saying, ‘Follow the rules.’ I want you to stop saying that one of us is better than the other. What is so special about you? What do you have that you were not given? And if it was given to you, how can you brag? (vv 5-7)

    Surely every gift, talent or ability we possess has been planted in us by the Lord. Humility is the only attitude that fits as we bow before Him.

    Maru

  12. SFDBWV says:

    Jesus used a parable to explain in story form that God had sent messengers to the people in order to tell them the truth only to have them killed by people who didn’t want to hear the truth.

    He even went so far to explain that even after God would send His son He too would be killed…. All about the truth.

    Pilate mocked the truth and questioned it.

    Nothing has changed.

    Jesus, who is the Messiah or Savior or Christ, in Greek, has been attacked since the beginning of this earth and the spirit of the “anti-christ” is very active in today’s world.

    This “anti-christ” uses the same tactic he used in the garden in order to *convince* Eve by twisting the truth and giving credibility to the lie.

    Do any of you really think that he doesn’t quote Scripture, and that he doesn’t use it to *convince* you of what it is you want to believe anyway.

    This Bible, this Word of God is the only solid foundation of truth that exists for our teaching and moral compass. It is not up for your editing or rewriting any more than it is available for the anti-christ to pervert for his purposes; which is for your confusion and ultimate destruction.

    The limp Mart is addressing “theologically” is that when you argue (wrestle) with God you are going to go away with a scar of some kind to remind you of it. May it be for your shame, not as a badge of accomplishment.

    Steve

  13. Mart De Haan says:

    Steve, help me understand. Are you saying that Jacob’s struggle with God to a point of blessing was to his shame? And what about our Lord when he struggled with his Father in the Garden? Could struggling with God be healthier than running from him, or worse, never even considering that there is a struggle to be had?

  14. Bill says:

    Good Morning Mart and Friends,

    This is an interesting topic, with equally interesting replies – especially from Steve.

    @Steve, I get the impression you’re upset about Mart’s topic. I don’t want to use the word “angry.” Because I don’t think that’s what you’re expressing. But you seem to be in sharp disagreement. Your opening comment (August 4, 2014 at 8:28 am) could be taken as joking. Or, it could be read as judgmental:

    * Seems to me Mart for a man who is as busy as you are you have a lot of time to read. I hope you find that which you are looking for. *

    I don’t get the impression Mart is “looking for” anything other than to understand God and his word as best he can, with great sincerity and humility. Not a shred of haughtiness or pride enters into it. I have never met someone as committed to the scriptures as Mart is. I can assure you and everyone here that Mart takes his faith very seriously.

    That doesn’t mean he doesn’t question things from time to time. I do. Christian authors and pastors do. Even people in the Bible itself did.

    As people grow spiritually, their understanding of things changes, too. Each time growth occurs, or a new insight is attained, I find myself reviewing what I believed previously to make sure it lines up with how I see things now. After all, what I believed about God and the Bible when I was twentysomething is vastly different from what I believe now. Not because I am rebellious or falling away today; rather, because I am not the same person now as I was then.

    For what it’s worth, here’s what I think about Mart’s topic:

    1. The Bible includes the story about Jacob wrestling with God not for any purpose – good or bad (“shame” or “a badge of accomplishment”) – other than to indicate that people can and do “wrestle” with God from time to time. God didn’t smite Jacob, didn’t wipe him off the face of the earth. Didn’t really even condemn him for “wrestling” with him.

    If God had been affronted to the point of anger or condemnation, he probably would have ended Jacob’s life. Giving Jacob a limp could have been done for the reasons Native Americans sometimes “counted coup.” A small mark on one’s opponent to indicate a face-off occurred and there was mutual respect exchanged.

    Plus, how many times have we read in the Psalms cries to God for understanding or help? Or how about Jesus himself asking God “Why hast thou forsake me?”

    I understand God likes – even requires – obedience. But I don’t get the impression from reading the Bible that God doesn’t allow honest challenges and questions. If that were not the case, he would have removed all free will and made us the dreaded automatons we often hear about.

    2. I am all for approaching the Bible with humility regarding what I think it says.

    In the last 30 years, I’ve spent time with Christians from all denominations, from Charismatic to conservative to Catholic. In their churches. Worshiping side by side with them. In addition, I read constantly about Church history and movements.

    Because of this, I know only *one thing* for an absolute fact:

    Everybody brings to the Bible two things: (a) what they’ve been taught by others (their pastors, parents, friends, or seminaries), and (b) what they bring to the table subjectively – their own feelings and emotions and opinions.

    That means there are vastly different opinions about what the Bible means in some key areas – End Times, Baptism, Salvation, Genesis, Jesus’ work on the cross, etc. Virtually every doctrine can be read/interpreted in different ways, by people with extremely high intelligence and education, steeped in the scriptures.

    So who’s right? Who’s wrong? And how do we handle differences of opinion?

    That’s what I think Mart means with this post. Humility and wrestling with what we think the Bible says/means, while trying to maintain a firm faith in something we do not know for a fact, we only believe with strong confidence.

    In short, I know enough to know that I’ll never know enough to know. That’s what keeps me humble. I know that I don’t know. Furthermore, I know that others don’t know, too. That realization enables me to be kinder to myself, and to others. We’re all just doing our best in a world that seems to make less sense all the time.

    Love to All,

    Bill

  15. poohpity says:

    Bill, what a journey, eeehh? :-)

    It seems the reason Satan gave to Adam/Eve for God not wanting them to eat of the Tree of Knowledge is because He did not want to them to know as much as He does.(Genesis 3:5) As if that were even possible. But that seems to be what they wanted, ouch! There is such a vast difference in knowing God and knowing as much as God. I would not even want to know as much as God my brain would bust and the amount of power that would have no human could handle it. Made me think of that spoof “Bruce Almighty”. lol I will just let God be God cause only He can handle that position and to me He does so very well at it. The big picture rather than this little itty bitty glimpse we see. Trying to fit God into my world rather than me finding the place He has for me in His.

  16. bubbles says:

    I would like to ask about struggling with God. How does a child of God know how far to go in the struggle and when does one know when to stop?

    In the Old Testament, Israel asked for a king and God said He was their king. They continued until God gave them for what they asked. He gave them Saul, who was not who God had in mind.

    I don’t want to be that way and ask continually if God’s silence is “no.” How do we discern if He says “no” or “wait?”

    Some things, like the salvation of others, we know that it’s God’s will that none should die without Him, and I have seen prayers answered after decades of many people praying for them.

    I want to ask but I fear God. Is it in the attitude of the asking that needs to be clearly stated in the prayer? I know God knows our hearts. But I don’t want to ask if God says ‘no.’

    I fear God and don’t want to end up like Israel with something because I asked and it was not His will.

  17. quietgrace says:

    bubbles I can share my walk with Christ in that I have learned through the years to preface my prayers with “nevertheless, not my will by thine be done”. God has told me to wait, and He has also told me to stop praying for something. I try to abide by His will and to trust that ‘Father knows best’ . Waiting is hard, especially for whatever the answer might be.

  18. quietgrace says:

    OH, I meant not my will but thy will be done.
    I believe God uses ANY conversation out of whatever emotion we are feeling at the time to help us to recognize that He is very interested in us and what we have to say as His beloved children.

  19. poohpity says:

    bubbles, if I may? Do you fear when you ask your dad a question? If you do because you know how he responds that is not how our Lord is. It seems God has an open door policy. Our earthly dad normally if they are a domineering, authoritarian or controlling person become very resentful and angry when they think they are being challenged. When a person is secure in who they are they do not mind questions that seems to be what God is like if there is even any comparison.

    There is no need to fear(be scared) of God. A reverent fear is way different. How do we know this by looking at Jesus who left the position of Deity to expose the heart of God to us. His perfect love casts out fear and shows us that in His desire to show us mercy has also opened a path(open door) for us to come to Him for everything. If a prayer seems like it is not answered there is probably a very good reason and we need to trust in that. God’s reasoning and timing seems to always have good in mind and although we may not understand the why’s we can trust His heart. Delight yourself in God rather than fearing.

  20. belleu says:

    Israel asked for a king knowing God did not want that for them. We are not to ask for something we know is against God’s will. I think that is the difference.

    Sometimes we don’t know what God’s will is and we can then ask for that. As Pooh was saying, we can actually talk with him about anything. Twice I prayed wrongly and both times God showed me to stop praying for those things. You will know when that happens; it’s like a slap on the back of the head. Of course, that was just me. I needed a slap I guess. lol

    One of the times I asked, it was for lots of money so I could help my family – everyone was in trouble financially. After a week or so God told me to stop it and not to ask again. I’m glad he let me know it was the wrong prayer for me anyway. Also, he showed me how poverty drives people towards him. Just because I want to help everyone and make everything alright doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

  21. poohpity says:

    The Holy Spirit is also our intercessor so when we do not know what or how to pray It does it for us on our behalf. It is so comforting to know it is about God and not us. We can lay our very lives, hopes and dreams in His hands. We limp but God reigns.

  22. remarutho says:

    As we pursued the fourth chapter of the Apostle Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth yesterday, I note that I did not place a closing quotation mark on the passage I cited. Am thinking this may have given an unfortunate impression that the words of the passage had been changed in some way. They had not.

    Just in case this is what is making my friend so unusually grumpy, I have copied and pasted the passage once more (please see below). The translation is Contemporary English Version, and therefore sounds rather modern compared to the KJV. I have no apology there!

    I cited the part where Paul said that he does not judge anybody — not even himself. Other commenters found more reasons for humility before God and other people a little farther on in the passage. Then, finally, I quoted verses 5 – 7 as an indication that we are always to bow very low before the throne of grace, since all that we have we have been given by the Father.

    Yours,
    Maru

    1 Corinthians 4:1-7 Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    The Work of the Apostles

    4:1 Think of us as servants of Christ who have been given the work of explaining God’s mysterious ways. 2 And since our first duty is to be faithful to the one we work for, 3 it doesn’t matter to me if I am judged by you or even by a court of law. In fact, I don’t judge myself. 4 I don’t know of anything against me, but that doesn’t prove that I am right. The Lord is my judge. 5 So don’t judge anyone until the Lord returns. He will show what is hidden in the dark and what is in everyone’s heart. Then God will be the one who praises each of us.

    6 Friends, I have used Apollos and myself as examples to teach you the meaning of the saying, “Follow the rules.” I want you to stop saying that one of us is better than the other. 7 What is so special about you? What do you have that you were not given? And if it was given to you, how can you brag?

  23. quietgrace says:

    Good evening all,
    Bill this morning you said, “In short, I know enough to know that I’ll never know enough to know. That’s what keeps me humble. I know that I don’t know. Furthermore, I know that others don’t know, too. That realization enables me to be kinder to myself, and to others. We’re all just doing our best in a world that seems to make less sense all the time”.

    I can’t agree with you more. When I entered Bible school, having studied independently and with only fundamental pastors/teachers for about 15 years, I thought I too knew how to interpret, but wow was I wrong. After 4 years I realized as did most that the more I knew, the less I knew. But it opened up so much more for me as far as learning, study, and personal growth in Christ. I am far less judgmental and a lot more gracious than I used to be, as the more I learn about God, the more I learn about grace now. And as we all know, grace is a gift, freely given, and no man can earn it through works of any kind in any way shape of form.
    Have a good evening all,
    Grace

  24. remarutho says:

    Good Evening BTA Friends —

    The question of reverence versus superstition seems to be a cross-road in matters of faith. Perhaps the Lord looks not so much at how well or perfectly his little ones perform — but much more at why they make the effort.

    The example of the hip-joint of Israel’s patriarch being commemorated in everyday practice — in the butcher shop — in the kitchen — when the main course is being sliced and served at the table. Reverence, it seems to me, is about remembering a meaningful, even awesome, event in the Lord’s dealings with his people. Superstition involves a ritual to appease God and avert disfavor.

    Jacob limped away from the intense encounter with God’s angel — having clung to him until he received the blessing. This is mysterious and no firm, logical conclusion may be drawn from it. I agree that the important thing is reverent remembrance of it.

    Mart, you asked:

    “What could be more important than approaching even the most basic themes of the Bible, and a resulting knowledge of God, with all due humility?”

    We can only lift up Jesus, and him crucified. The gift of Christ’s great sacrifice enters the lives of others in ways I can know nothing about. May we all remain simply faithful to the story!

    Maru

  25. poohpity says:

    Isn’t the logical conclusion told in scripture?

  26. telliot says:

    Hi everyone,

    Gen 32 Jacob’s struggle to me is very movingly illustrated in David’s heartfelt appeal to God in Ps 51:

    “Create in me a pure heart, O God,
    and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
    Do not cast me from your presence
    or take your Holy Spirit from me.
    Restore to me the joy of your salvation
    and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me. ”

    To me this is true Israel, “one who struggles with God and with man and overcomes”.

    A sincere and pure heart who struggles with his humanity but longs for God’s forgiveness and love.

    To me there is no complicated theology behind this simple message.

    My thoughts.

    Blessings. Tony.

  27. quietgrace says:

    Good morning friends!

    As I awoke this morning I asked Jesus to just hold me for a while and wishing I could just go with him without all the pressures and tensions of the day. Then I opened my Bible to Job 6 NLT and Job 7 NLT and was comforted to be reminded that God is aware of our struggle and that in the end, He doesn’t forsake us. Like you said Pooh, we know what’s coming because of what scripture tells us, but in the mean time, we all limp in one way or another till our days here are ended. I think though it is wrong to judge others as far as where they are in there walk with God. No one knows the struggles another is going through, really.

    If one tends to be a concrete thinker then living this way or that becomes logical and easy to understand. But for those who are more ‘thoughtful’ in their approach the limp becomes more obvious and here is where more grace is needed, and is available.

    Limping along with grace! Blessings in Christ Jesus to all, Grace

  28. poohpity says:

    Did I say that? I do not remember I will go back and reread but it does not sound like something I would say.

  29. quietgrace says:

    That is what I heard you say, did you mean something differently?

  30. remarutho says:

    Your conversation, Quietgrace and Poohpity,

    reminds me of the percentages cited in Mart’s previous post — especially something like 46% of those polled believe in the Bible as the Word of God but do not believe it should be taken literally.

    The Hebrew tradition of removing the hip tendon (the part of Jacob put out of joint by the angel of the Lord) and laying it aside rather than consuming it does not seem like a “logical” thing to do — to me at least.

    Instead, it seems like a way to be reverent and worshipful in honor of our forefather who wrestled with God and prevailed. He limped from then on. In the same way, our desire to know God better is costly to us on this side of the cross of Christ.

    I’m not certain we can nail down our belief system with anything like “proof.” We have strong evidence, we have good reason to believe — and especially we have faith and hope in Jesus.

    To me it seems there are always questions, and very few definite answers in the stories of the Bible.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  31. remarutho says:

    This faith requirement doesn’t seem like a bad thing to me.

  32. poohpity says:

    grace, if you are talking about, “Isn’t the logical conclusion told in scripture?” referring to what Maru wrote about Jacob and the hip thing. The logical conclusion was as telliot went on to explain simply. The struggle between man and man, man and God and overcoming. Does not sound anything like, “we know what’s coming because of what scripture tells us”. I will give it a shot at being clearer and thank you for asking for clarification.

    Maru, I see some definite answers in the bible yet there are mysteries to be revealed also. I really do not believe we have the capabilities to thoroughly know God and if we acted on the little we are given to know would not forgiveness, mercy and grace abound in our lives. Walking with a limp is something I put up with daily not only physically but spiritually as well leading to dependence and recognizing our weaknesses and rather than looking around we would spend more time looking up in awe and reverence.

  33. poohpity says:

    I so agree with what Mart stated, “that so many of our problems with the Bible are not with what it says, but about what we think it is saying” that is evident in our conversations with others as well. We got to get out of the way to really hear what another is saying and in God’s Word it is spoken of as dying to self.

  34. street says:

    The Hebrew religion has a great many traditions as well as holidays and customs; I have a very difficult time keeping up with them. I suppose somewhere in the back of my mind it is *nice* to know information, but not *need* to know.

    wouldn’t it be neat if everything,traditions, holidays, customs, and events Glorified God, or would that be boring?

  35. street says:

    in regard to not eating the hip. does anyone remember..
    Matthew 15:1-9

    It’s dangerous to make up things and use them to teach Spiritual Truth.

  36. street says:

    Thanks Tony Psalm 51 was on my mind this week too.

  37. street says:

    poohpity says:
    August 5, 2014 at 12:08 pm

    Love cast out fear. 1 John 4:18

  38. hera says:

    Hi all..theology with a limp = always in humility ? -similar to: empty yourself to be able to absorb/take in as much as possible what’s being ‘poured into’ you (knowledge, teachings, conersations etc), (sorry can’t remember what’s the term of that) also similar to – defy yourself…?
    I suppose since suffering, in one way or another, is a part of life (there is a theology of suffering, i read somewhere) struggle-questions seem to be perpetual. Discerning God’s will is also a struggle, especially if then it is not to our expectation. Just a little note on money, someone mentioned about asking money, well I too did that, there was a sort of lot (not lottery) and the prize was quite substantial and I prayed that I’d get it for I wanted to help a badly damaged church, alas! -or fortunately? :-) – I didn’t get it; but there is a Prosperity Theology though perhaps not many subscribe to it? so I think, just my thought, it’s ok to ask for money and I still do but just the ‘daily bread’ type not the first prize type though I might do it again if situation allows, or is it a sin? :-)

  39. hera says:

    Sorry, that’s conversation – not conersations.

  40. Mart De Haan says:

    Am thinking that Jacob’s limp seems to be a lingering reminder of the God who– by the means he chooses– is willing to graciously struggle with us… in our determination to have life our way— while leaving us with the reassuring mystery of his presence, goodness, and over-riding purpose.

  41. SFDBWV says:

    Cain also had an encounter with God. Instead of just killing Cain as would later be given as an eye for an eye law, God marked him.

    Many years later Paul would have an encounter with Jesus that also left him *marked* but then forever changed as his eyes were opened he could then see the *light*.

    Many among us say they have seen the light, but their old nature is the only light that emanates from them, and so they remain marked.

    All of professing Christians should be eternally marked with the blood of the Lamb, find it undeserved and give honor and respect to Him.

    But some won’t, they’ll reinvent Him to fit their broken view of everything, making themselves still seen as the center of existence.

    So do you have a *limp* or a *halo* to remind you of where you stand with “The Almighty”?

    Steve

  42. tracey5tgbtg says:

    The account of Jacob, sending his family ahead of him, while he stayed alone is on the surface a simple story, yet there is much to think about. This night is obviously a night that Jacob is under a lot of mental stress. He is about to meet up with his brother who, the last time they were together, was ready to kill Jacob for betraying him and for deceiving their father. So clearly, Jacob has some mental turmoil going on.

    I don’t understand the wrestling – what it means, why it happened. This is Jacob’s personal struggle and maybe we aren’t meant to understand in full what happened between him and God.

    What I have taken away from this story is that we will have struggles; we will have hard, painful struggles that have probably been brought on by our own actions, and God will go through them with us, no matter what.
    Jacob did receive a blessing and a new name. And he was changed forever.

    Because of the limp, every day Jacob/Israel had a physical reminder of his struggle with God. That makes it much harder to forget. But the limp is a reminder that God is with him, God blessed him, and God gave him a new name.

  43. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    It seems to me, Tracey,that new name is a sign that an immense turning or shift has taken place.

    Jacob the “supplanter,” who was at first a trickster, becomes Israel, “one who prevails with God.” It is interesting to me that when the strong angel renames Jacob and Jacob asks his name, the angel asks, “Why is it that you ask my name?” (Gen 32:29)

    And, Israel draws his own conclusion. He names the place Peniel or “face of God,” because he knew he had seen God face to face. This is mysterious. Can it be God met Jacob on terms that he especially understood — wrestling and competing with his last ounce of strength?

    Didn’t the angel of God “let” Jacob win? What unmerited favor from the Creator of the universe! The limp and the new name branded Israel from then on.

    So similarly Paul took a new name, as Steve points out, and Jesus renamed Peter, — setting him aside for God’s purpose. The story bears this out. Something to take along for today’s journey. Makes me think differently about my own “limps.”

    Maru

  44. SFDBWV says:

    Very well said Maru, as I was involved in writing when urged to look in before I posted, I seen you had already said similar things I would have, so I erased and smiled.

    It will always come to this in all of the stories with all the hero’s and villain’s in Scripture; it is all for God’s purposes, not theirs.

    His ultimate purpose the restoration and salvation of mankind.

    Steve

  45. Bill says:

    Good Morning All!

    Steve, you wrote (August 7, 2014 at 6:08 am):

    – So do you have a *limp* or a *halo* to remind you of where you stand with “The Almighty”? –

    This is either/or thinking that, I believe, limits us and causes unnecessary divisions and arguments.

    The answer is both.

    I believe there isn’t a Christian on the planet who always wears a halo. I don’t believe where I stand with the *The Almighty* depends on whether I have a limp, or I wear a halo. Jesus paid the price for my sins. Therefore, I stand with *The Almighty* unashamed and unencumbered.

    Whether I sport a halo or a limp, I am His. And He’s not going to look at me with condemnation either way.

    Of course, nothing I just typed is absolute. I could be wrong.

    Your mileage may vary.

    Love,

    Bill

  46. poohpity says:

    Determined to have life my way then forcing all around to have life my way too, wives/husbands, children, friends, parents and if they do not agree to my way here comes the tantrums, lol. So to keep peace no one says or does anything against my way. God even seems to step back until that person comes to the end of their self- if they ever do. Jacob had to be confronted with doing things his way by having his father-n-law sow the same seeds of deception. The first aww haa moment then when being faced with the brother whom he had deceived, the chill of fear sets in. The struggle of man to man.

    Then God. When a person believes they are drowning they slash all around and to try helping them at that point would mean certain death for both. So the rescuer waits till the person runs out of energy and stops struggling then as they go under they are able to be rescued.

    Why depend on God when one thinks they can do it themselves? Why point others to God when they want to be the savior figure? It seems our Life Guard patiently watches in the background until we are done slashing around before He steps in. God seemed to know exactly the point in time that Jacob was ready. The cake was prepared, it was now icing time.

  47. poohpity says:

    Never knew a halo was an option, lol!

  48. poohpity says:

    I want to thank all those who prayed for my son (the big lost coin) has been found. Over the last few weeks he lost what he thought was his dream job which was actually leading him away from God. He asked his girlfriend’s dad for her hand in marriage and when they said they would be proud to have him for their son-n-law he was humbled and then God provided him with a job of helping low income people. He determined that God had directed all this and had not left him even when he walked away. We both were in tears on the phone last night. So thank you for your prayers it has been a tough 2 years. Our God reigns!! Another lesson in knowing I limp but God.

  49. remarutho says:

    Hey Steve!

    With the massive power struggles now taking place on the world stage: Israel/Palestine; Russia/Ukraine; ISIS/Iraq — how easy it would be to allow the wheels to fall off our little wagon!

    Each of the leaders exerting power in military and economic bashing and counter-bashing should read Genesis chapter 32 today. in my humble opinion!

    I agree that the Lord wants to restore and deliver us all from ourselves. May we hold steady to His purposes.

    Maru

  50. street says:

    The limp Mart is addressing “theologically” is that when you argue (wrestle) with God you are going to go away with a scar of some kind to remind you of it. May it be for your shame, not as a badge of accomplishment.

    Steve

    Steve, help me understand. Are you saying that Jacob’s struggle with God to a point of blessing was to his shame? And what about our Lord when he struggled with his Father in the Garden? Could struggling with God be healthier than running from him, or worse, never even considering that there is a struggle to be had?

    are you two talking about the same coin from two different sides?

  51. street says:

    22 Therefore thus says the Lord, jwho redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob:

    “Jacob shall no more be ashamed,

    no more shall his face grow pale.

  52. quietgrace says:

    I think of Jonah and his struggle with God. How patient God was with Jonah in his very human humanness. But Jonah did not come out unscathed either, I’m sure being in that whale’s belly changed him, just as Jesus on the cross was changed from mortal/immortal to all immortal. I think the limp is the passageway to immortality through the arms of grace.

  53. quietgrace says:

    Pooh I am so happy for you and your son! What an answer to prayers.

  54. telliot says:

    Hi all,

    Please allow me to make a few more comments after reading your posts.

    I think it is safe to assume that Christians have mostly accepted that faith in Christ is a personal one? Many of us say it all the time in our conversations with other Christians reminding each other that it is always a “personal relationship with Christ”. It is not a country or nation that is important.

    “Israel” is the individual – the one who had an encounter with God and became the “new creation” (2 Cor 5 reconciling man with God; Gal 6). So it should not be a surprise that Rom 9 states “not all who descended from Israel are Israel”. Neither is a person a “Jew” if he is only one outwardly (Rom 2). Note that Gal 6:16 also refers to the new creation in Christ collectively as the body of Christ, the Christian church “the Israel of God”.

    In the final book of the Bible, addressing the established Christian churches then, observe the following verses (KJV):

    “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Rev 2:7

    “He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.” Rev 2:11

    “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.” Rev 2:17

    “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” Rev 3:5

    “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.” Rev 3:12

    “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Rev 3:21

    “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” Rev 21:7

    As I mentioned in the previous blog, many Christians have an identity crisis because they have not understood the NT enough. The New Testament (covenant) of our Lord Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of everything the OT points towards. Without the NT, a person remains confused in the myriad of Jewish interpretations.

    In the Jewish interpretation, the limp may well have significance in some of the ways stated in these posts. However, in Eph 1:13-14 the Christian’s mark is the seal of the Holy Spirit of Christ. There are numerous differences like this one.

    God bless. Tony.

  55. poohpity says:

    Tony, I think “Theology With a Limp” is showing that we do not know everything there is to know about God, so talking about God and the Bible in a way that shows that what we are discussing is only from our very limited understanding and sadly, shaded by our view point. I believe that may help us stay humble(limp) as we discuss both.

  56. poohpity says:

    And even saying things about them by reading more into them than is actually written.

  57. poohpity says:

    One time during a bible study we were having at my kitchen table one lady would not let us get past the first few chapters of Genesis because she felt it was totally against everything about God for sisters and brothers to have relations to start the human race. To her thinking she would just not accept that. She felt there were other people in another places on the earth and even asking to let’s just go on with what we have in front of us there was no going further we faced a brick wall. That is an example of putting our understanding and rationalizations in the way. There was not even a limp it was total paralysis.

  58. belleu says:

    Pooh – I am so happy for you and your son! How wonderful; praise God!

    I would say my “struggles” in life have left scars (limps). I am not the optimistic person I was at 20 years of age. With each tragedy in my life there is a new scar (limp)on my heart. But the scars also give me a new and stronger longing to be with Jesus; a new realization of how much I need him; a new realization of how this world holds nothing for me.

    My “struggle” with God has left a reminder, not a scar, in my heart that God is the only answer to heartache and scars. Now, when I am tempted to think he doesn’t care, I remember the struggle I had with Him and know he does care. I’ve been there, done that, and I have the answer.

  59. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Maru – you said, “Can it be God met Jacob on terms that he especially understood — wrestling and competing with his last ounce of strength?”

    It just struck me what a good point that is. I think God does meet us in ways that speak to our hearts and perhaps for Jacob, wrestling was something he understood.

    I think there are so many ways to think about how we have been affected and have a limp as a result. It makes me think of Paul asking to have the thorn removed from his flesh.

    I’ve heard/read many ideas on what the thorn was, but I think it could be so many things. Things we don’t want, but God won’t take away, because they keep us focused on Him.

    Pooh – I’m so glad to hear about the events in your son’s life.

  60. SFDBWV says:

    Let me look again from the very beginning of this topic. The story is about Jacob’s limp and how this concept of *the limp* can be present in *theology*.

    Genesis 32:24 (KJ) “And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a *man* with him until the breaking of the day”.

    “A man”.

    When this “man” saw that he could not “prevail” against Jacob he dislocated Jacob’s hip bone (Genesis 32:25). Then the man says it’s almost daybreak let me go and Jacob says I won’t let you go until you bless me. (Genesis 32:26).

    This man then asks Jacob what his name is (Genesis 32:27)

    Now this “man” changes Jacobs name to Israel because Jacob contended with divine and human beings and prevailed (Genesis 32:28).

    Jacob now ask this “man” his name and the man didn’t tell him only ask him why he should want to know. The King James now says that this “man” then blessed Jacob, other translations simply say he said goodbye and left. (Genesis 32:29)

    Jacob believing he has seen God face to face and lived to tell it calls the place where he was Peniel. (Genesis 32:30)

    Ok, following in the heart of the last topic is this “story” an actual event in the life of Jacob? Or is it an allegory meant to give symbolic meaning, open for endless interpretation? Or is it both?

    How can I relate this event to my life? Why the limp?

    The Jew seen the wound in Jacob’s hip as a divine act of God and so made a symbolic tradition of it.

    Where in any of our lives has God wounded us because we contended with Him?

    All of us has strayed from Him and all of us have suffered because of it, but is our suffering a direct strike from God?

    Have we been hurt by God in such a way that now we “limp” from the wound, solely because we wrestled with God?

    In Numbers 12:10 Miriam is struck with leprosy because she argued with God’s choice. I believe if you look you will find many others whom God punished for contending with Him.

    As I reflect upon my own life I can see where I have hurt myself from bad choices, but only to be rescued by God, not punished as by being struck by Him.

    If I have any residual effects from all of my encounters with God it is only the presence of His Spirit that emanates from me in the form of an aura (halo) not a limp to remind me that I wrestled with God and survived; limping with pride to a point of showing it off.

    This is only a beginning of explanation from me as why I have said what I have said. I didn’t really want to get drawn into this as I have no time for it, but Bill is upset with me and street has ask so I have begun to try and explain or defend my thoughts.

    Steve

  61. Bill says:

    Good Morning All,

    Steve, I wouldn’t categorize my responses to your posts as “upset” by any stretch of the imagination. I’m not even slightly miffed, let alone upset In fact, my opinion of you and your posts has not changed an iota. You’re someone I respect greatly, whose writings here always inspire me. Please don’t read anything negative into my posts.

    Mart wrote:

    * While recently reading a book by Austin Fischer I was impressed by the author’s reflection on this ancient story. While talking about the danger of trying to push our knowledge of the Bible into a tight logical system that satisfies our own understanding, Fischer urged the idea of theology with a limp.

    Since then, I’ve thought a lot about that simple phrase and idea. What could be more important than approaching even the most basic themes of the Bible, and a resulting knowledge of God, with all due humility? *

    I see nothing wrong with that second paragraph. In fact, it seems most wise to me. I believe when we approach the Bible with too much swagger, an unwavering belief in our opinion of what it means, we set ourselves up for a fall.

    That’s all Mart is suggesting – that we approach the Bible with a “limp,” a knowledge that we’re fallible and may not have the God’s-eye view of what it all definitively means.

    There’s no need to defend your thoughts to anyone here, let alone me. You offered opinions. So did we. No harm, no foul. It’s all good.

    Pooh, I’m very happy with what’s happening in your son’s life. Thank you for sharing that with us.

    Love to All,

    Bill

  62. poohpity says:

    Thank you guys for rejoicing with me.

    I think Job and the discourse between him and his friends is also a good example of this topic. Job came to the conclusion they were talking about Someone more glorious than their understanding could fathom so he placed his hand over his mouth in humility.

  63. SFDBWV says:

    Trying to keep my train of thought going and not looking in to read anything on BTA as yet.

    From a literal point of view, I would have a lot of questions concerning the “wrestling” encounter Jacob experienced.

    Doesn’t it just seem very odd that Jacob meets a stranger and they have a wrestling match? If an intruder into Jacob’s encampment this stranger would have been set upon by more than just Jacob and it would have been with sword or knife, not a semi friendly game of wrestling.

    If the strange man is an angel or even God then how could Jacob have been able to keep his opponent entangled and not able to leave unless Jacob let him up? It seems, as Maru stated, Jacob was allowed to have the upper hand in that matter.

    Why?

    Again relating this to my life I have no recollection whereas I have ever had a similar experience.

    I have certainly been upset with God and have plead my case which could have been viewed as arguing or wrestling as with whose will gets their way. But never to a point that I had God pinned and had to let him up and certainly not by my negotiating the terms in which I would let Him go.

    At any time I have “wrestled” with my faith or with God in prayer I have never went away from such times crippled by God for doing so.

    The literal interpretation of Jacobs encounter seems to be for the purpose of God’s plans for the establishment of the nation of people known as Israel.

    So now how do I segue this story into the study of Scripture (theology) with a limp?

    I don’t or can’t.

    How possibly could my interpretation or study of Scripture lead to any of the events found in the story of Jacob and his encounter with God?

    It just does not work.

    I don’t have a wound to remind me that there is more to God’s Word than I can possibly ever know. Instead of a limp I am given the knowledge I need from God in order to be at peace.

    No limp no wound; only a loving revelation given personally by a loving Father that knows exactly how to help me along on my journey.

    Steve

  64. quietgrace says:

    Steve have you ever been disappointed with God and His will, choices for your life? I have and it’s these events that have give me my limp, a limp that has slowed me down to be able to stop, look, and listen to others who have suffered as I have. And as I look up to the One I serve and love, it is always with the thought in mind that I didn’t submit willingly, but struggled with great passion knowing full well who was really in charge of my life. And that His mercies are ever-new every morning sometimes with great pain, sometimes with great rejoicing.

    I do enjoy also reading your posts, thoughts, as I do all the others here.

  65. street says:

    telliot says:
    August 7, 2014 at 5:25 pm

    the Vail comes to mind at the end of your post.

    2 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil [e]remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

  66. street says:

    telliot says:
    August 7, 2014 at 5:25 pm
    Your post has stirred in me the thought that he that overcomes or prevails are present tense. I can see why Paul can speak with boldness in 2 Cor 3:2

  67. street says:

    ops 2Cor3:12

  68. poohpity says:

    When we broach even the most basic themes of the bible with humility looking to God for guidance since we really do not have a clue it would behoove us to speak with that in mind.

    It seems before Jacob even wrestled with God he had named the place- a place of two camps(Mahanaim) which seems to mean a camp of men and a camp of God. Genesis 32:1-2 NLT Jacob was left all alone in camp when God came to him. When Jacob had his first encounter(Jacob’s ladder) with God he was also alone as he ran from Esau. It seems the first time resulted in living the 20 years of consequences of the bad choices he had made to get him to that place the second time he admitted that unless God had been with him he would not have come back with all that he had. It is amazing that God knows exactly what it will take to get us to a place of resting in God and giving up the struggle against Him.

    It could be that when confronting pride we can limp away or get the rug totally pulled out from under us but whatever it seems to take if we are truly putting God on the throne not ourselves we will be brought to our knees not in shame but in gratitude that God will never give up on those who truly seek Him and the really amazing thing it seems He never gives up on those who do not even know they need Him.

  69. SFDBWV says:

    Bill I am relieved to read you were not upset with my comments. I couldn’t agree more that we are to approach the Bible with humility and reverence for the Author.

    Grace let me answer your question this way. Around Easter 1999 or a little later my son Matthew and I took communion and ask God to use us for His purpose, both of us looking forward to service for Him.

    On June 7 1999 Matthew was involved in a single vehicle accident that put him into 29 days of intensive care with traumatic brain injury and comatose.

    In October of 1999 my wife of 30 years discovered she had cancer and died one year later on October the 20th 2000.

    I had worked my entire life holding 2 jobs and sometimes three to provide for my family, when she discovered she had cancer it had been less than a month since we had brought Matt home from the rehabilitation hospital. I had to quit working all together and stay at home to take care of them, without any real knowledge of where money was going to come from to keep us afloat.

    Coming into this personal tragedy God had been preparing me with loads of personal messages that made no real sense to me until all this unfolded before me.

    Two acknowledgements from Him were very clear to me and remain so unto this writing; “Stand fast” and “Trust me”.

    Was I wounded by God for all that has happened? No, God has taken care of us all throughout this tragedy, even allowing us to bless others.

    Has this slowed me down? I wish!

    God stopped Matthew and I where we were in life and placed us up on a shelf, awaiting (?). However to say I have been slowed down physically, certainly not. Has this made me look deeper into the heart of God? I hope so.

    My heart breaks a hundred time a day and am shaken to my core all the day long. But my faith remains the same, I will stand fast and trust Him even unto my death.

    I think we are playing semantics with the word and meaning of Jacobs limp. Probably this story and its meaning is going to be as different for each of us as are each of our needs.

    I suppose with all I have had to say today, one can see how it is almost impossible to just share a few words in order to make a comment about any of Mart’s subjects, as how we do has a long history of why we are who we are and why we say the things we do.

    Be blessed and tell someone today that you love them, it may be your only chance to and their last chance to hear it.

    Steve

  70. quietgrace says:

    Steve thank you for sharing a bit of your life with us. I’m sure you have done it before but I’m still fairly new and don’t the the history some have here. God has given you much to deal with. You sound as though is was easy to accept the struggles in your life. For me it wasn’t so easy. But all of our walks/personalities are different. I praise God for His faithfulness to you and myself also. Semantics or not, more grace is needed and that more than we or others could ever give us.
    blessings! Grace

  71. quietgrace says:

    I have to preface my sentence “You sound as though it was easy to accept the struggles in your life.” with the disclaimer that I know it wasn’t ‘easy’, but that you accepted them with more determination than I did.

  72. poohpity says:

    How about sharing God’s love since ours seems so conditional that when it comes to loving enemies only one who has a heart for God can accomplish that. Otherwise loving those who will love us back is as far as one can get which in reality is not very far at all. Luke 6:32-33 NLT

  73. poohpity says:

    Grace things are not always as they sound.

  74. Bill says:

    Steve, you really are an inspiration to me. I have no words to express how deeply I was moved by your story. Thank you.

    Pooh, are you addressing Steve’s post about his life, suggesting instead that people share God’s love instead of ours? What Steve wrote was perfect as is. We should always say, “I love you” to those close to us in our life. Unless we can say those words, and often, we likely cannot feel God’s love for us, or share his love for others through us.

  75. belleu says:

    Steve, I am so glad you expanded your comments. What you said gives me a lot to think about. Does God give us a limp or limps?

    I guess if we see God as able to prevent a tragedy and yet doesn’t, then we could see everything as coming from Him. In that way the limps are from Him. He does not wish us evil, but he allows evil to come. Jeremiah 29:11.

    I don’t think we can see “thorns” in our sides or limps as a blessing, and yet they are. Paul said his thorn was to keep him from being proud. Now, he also said the thorn was from Satan but God refused to remove it. Pride is a terrible sin, therefore God gave Paul a thorn to save him.

    Why do I have “my” limps? I think because, like Paul, I need to be kept humble. If I was full of self-confidence and life was a bowl of cherries then I guess I wouldn’t have much sympathy with those who suffer. I would think, “Hey, I can do it – why can’t they?” Perhaps Jacob had to continue to live with his limp to remind him to be humble, in the same way Paul needed to be reminded. We are not told why Jacob had the limp, but we are told why Paul had the thorn.

  76. quietgrace says:

    Pooh you said, Grace things are not always as they sound.

    Would you please explain what you mean by this?

  77. belleu says:

    I was just thinking that both Paul and Jacob received their limps immediately after seeing God.

  78. quietgrace says:

    belleu I think you are on to something. I just read in Mathew Henry’s Concise Commentary that if it was Jesus that Jacob wrestled with the broken thigh might have been necessary so that Jacob would not become prideful because of his revelation, as Paul was told his thorn in the flesh was to keep him humble also.

  79. quietgrace says:

    Then again, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego did not wrestle with or complain to God and though He allowed them to go into the furnace they came out without even the smell of smoke on them. Hmmmm. Maybe someone can explain the difference? Is it because of the nature of the confrontation? Purpose?

  80. poohpity says:

    Bill, I have to disagree saying those words has nothing to do with feeling God’s love for us, His love was shown by actions. I do agree it is nice to hear but sometimes it is over used without substance, only words.

    grace, it seems no struggles that people experience are easy or we would not call them struggles. The one thing about humanity is we all share humanity. Struggles are hard for everyone even though each person goes through different ones. I was trying to encourage you that although it may sound easy I am sure it was not.

  81. phpatato says:

    Good afternoon All

    Steve: I love you brother! You truly are an inspiration!

    Bill: As ALWAYS I so enjoy reading your comments! I have affectionately pegged you as our Love Wins brother. Love truly does win. It doesn’t get any more simple, does it.

    To Everyone: Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your prayers for my husband. Update: I am happy to report that he has been brought out of his drug-induced comma, has been extubated and is out of ICU. His kidneys, which shut down because of sepsis have not, as yet, bounced back. That is, doctors told me, a very foggy/hazy prediction as to when or if they will “come back online” – it is not uncommon for the kidneys to take 3 months and even as long as 6 months to kickstart back up. He is getting dialysis every second day now instead of every day. He has a long road of rehab ahead of him. He cannot yet even feed himself as his muscle mass has deteriorated. Once he is deemed ready, there will be a transfer from the hospital he is in to a rehab hospital, probably in the coming week or so. He is at one time really coherent and at other times really confused. I know he is frustrated. Your continued prayers are so appreciated.

    For those of you who keep track, there will be a supermoon on Aug 10. It will be 14% closer and 30% brighter. Competing for your attention, should you want to look heavenward, will be the Perseid meteor shower. Even though the sky will be bright from the moon, Science at Nasa says there is a good chance at catching the abundant fireballs streaking through the sky over the weekend and through the August 12-13 peak.

    Sorry for going off topic

    Pat

  82. phpatato says:

    Oops…my husband never was in a comma. He was in a coma though.

    Deb, may I say I disagree with you. I am 100% certain that when Steve said for us to say I love you to someone, he wasn’t inferring for us to just mouth the words and make them hollow. I know full well, right now, that life is so very very fragile. One never knows if they will ever get the chance to say I Love YOU to a loved one once they are out of sight. Say it loud and say it often. Life is but a vapour, here today and gone tomorrow.

    xo

  83. quietgrace says:

    Pat I will continue to pray for you and your husband. What an awful ordeal to go through, much like some of the procedures Steve’s son has gone through I’m sure with his son; so glad you can encourage one-another.

    Pooh thanks for explaining-I could not figure out what you meant at all! I don’t feel discouraged at all by what Steve has gone through and what I have gone through. I hope I didn’t sound as if I was comparing, just pointing out that I wasn’t as prepared as he was for the suffering I had to go through. Our sufferings are different in nature but the same God we all look to for comfort and help in time of need. And faithful He is!

  84. SFDBWV says:

    I just wanted to add that from my own life experiences I have learned that no one person’s tragedies or troubles are any worse than that of another, we all hurt the same no matter what the cause.

    One of the oddities of my life has always been dreams that stuck with me from my earliest youth that only made sense as life moved forward. For me where I am in life seems to be my purpose, my cross to bear. Without really knowing as I look back across my life I can see where I was being prepared as well as circumstances were unfolding that brought me to exactly where I am.

    One of the reasons for my optimism for the future is the view of my past, because looking backward I can see where God has always been there so why would he not be there *tomorrow*.

    I am happy for Pat and her husband Phil, though it still looks like a long road ahead for them before whatever normal will resume. I love her also and am happy to call her my friend.

    I hope all of you have a good day today and have reason to smile and enjoy life….even if with a limp.

    Steve

  85. SFDBWV says:

    For everyone, but especially you Grace. From “Days of Praise”.

    August 9, 2014
    Gracious Strength
    “Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.” (2 Timothy 2:1)

    As with so many other character attributes, a Christian cannot measure strength as the world does. True strength is not military might or athletic skill or purchasing power. “For . . . not many mighty . . . are called: But God hath chosen . . . the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty” (1 Corinthians 1:26-27).

    A Christian is strong when he or she is a person of gracious character, strong in the grace manifested by Christ in word and deed. “My strength is made perfect in weakness,” the Lord told the apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 12:9), who then prayed that we would also be “strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness” (Colossians 1:11).

    But how does one acquire such strength in grace? First of all, it is by the working of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the believer’s life-“strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man” (Ephesians 3:16).

    Then it is by spending times of quietness before the Lord in prayer and study. “Their strength is to sit still. . . . in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength” (Isaiah 30:7, 15). Frantic efforts to acquire, by human methods, the power one needs to accomplish a task or to reach a goal will be futile in the end, “but they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength” (Isaiah 40:31).

    After the people had spent a day before the Lord and His written Word, Nehemiah could assure them that “the joy of the LORD is your strength” (Nehemiah 8:10). “Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee,” the psalmist could say (Psalm 84:5). When we acquire our strength from Him, we can confidently claim the ancient promise: “And as thy days, so shall thy strength be” (Deuteronomy 33:25). HMM

    Steve

  86. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    Appreciate the prayer updates on your lost coin – Pooh, your husband – Pat and the reminders of the past fifteen years of your family’s journey – Steve.

    It seems to me this limping we do, both literal and figurative, is meant to keep us listening and watching for Jesus around every corner in every situation and encounter. Who else can wrestle us into kingdom reality? What joy when I encounter his strength and purpose!

    Was reading yesterday part of Julian of Norwich’s writing. Story after story gives me encouragement to trust Jesus – especially when events turn suddenly to bring pain and confusion. Julian faced the days of bubonic (black) plague.

    Please pray for my brother’s girlfriend. She has prolonged liver failure — which brings symptoms like what you describe, Pat. Rehab is still not in view for her. Looks like at least two more weeks in acute care.

    Joy all day!
    Maru

  87. quietgrace says:

    Steve good morning.

    All those verses are very dear to me. Hearing more of your life reminds me that all of our walks are different, but that the same Lord is Lord of all. As far as God’s purpose in all of our lives goes we all figure out eventually that He does have the same purpose in mind; to be glorified in our lives no matter the cross we bear.

    I was given my cross at birth, and have ‘walked through the valley of the shadow’ most all my days; both literally and now with ptsd. I still haven’t completely emerged but I do see light at every turn. It’s that Light that keeps me going, reaching up to bow down daily. Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ!

    I find that if I spent too much time looking at my limp, I start to question and even doubt sometimes, but the minute I remind myself Who’s I am, the joy of the lord IS my strength. Interesting how we can look with sadness and joy at the same thing. This limp-a-thon is quite the journey, but all done with crutches made of grace!

    Maru I too love to read dead saints writings, so inspiring and encouraging. Praying for you brother’s girlfriend, such a tough road now and ahead for her.

    Blessings in Christ Jesus,
    Grace

  88. poohpity says:

    Pat, thank you for the update on your husband I have been wondering how he was doing and will continue to pray. About inferring anything about Steve that was Bill who planted that seed. Mart, was speaking about reading what is said rather than what we think it is saying referring to the Bible but it happens in conversations too. xo

    Maru, that is how we lost Gary last year and I will be praying. It is certainly a rough road and my heart breaks for her, your brother and everyone around her same with Pat.

    Please pray for me too. I hurt my knee 3 days ago and thought it would get better but it is only getting worse. My son wanted to take me to the hospital but I keep saying let’s give it another day.

  89. remarutho says:

    Please don’t wait too long, Pooh. Prayers going up over here.

    We stand and kneel in the circle of prayer — most encouraging to me day-by-day. I linked arms with BTA about this time in 2011, needing a steady witness of King Jesus especially at that time.

    My prayer is that the ones who stop by this site always find refreshment and strength for the journey.

    Maru
    Lam 3:22, 23

  90. belleu says:

    Pat, I will continue to pray for your husband. May God comfort both of you during this trial.

    Steve, the Bible verses you brought up in your last post helped me today. I had forgotten that verse, “The joy of the Lord is my strength.” I need to write it on the walls of my house so I never forget. And yes, when we realize we are weak – then we can become strong in the Lord. What precious promises from our God.

  91. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    There is no conclusion to thinking about — even talking about and celebrating the cause of our limp caused by tussling with the Lord. Saw, at last, the movie God Is Not Dead last evening. No tidy ending — just traveling on — together — listening to one another’s stories, praying for others, and offering encouragement.

    Mart, you quoted the Apostle Paul writing to the church in Rome:

    “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!”

    How wonderful to be joined in fellowship, worshiping Jesus!

    Blessings all day,
    Maru

  92. foreverblessed says:

    Was on holiday, and could only read, once in a while were there was wifi.
    Thank you All for writing, it has nourished me a lot! So many thing to say, but here is some of it.
    First of all, Pat, I will pray for you and your husband! And Pooh, what a good news! Shows that it is best that we are reconciled to each other here, so we can pray in one mind, and God hears us, and works on our prayers! His ways are way past finding out, as Maru wrote just above!

    All the scriptures were very good for me, especially where Maru repeated the 1 Cor 4:1-7
    3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
    Letting these words sink in, Paul does not even judge himself, how often so I not do this, judge myself, seeing when I failed, was not patient enough. God does not look at me like that, He is so different. These verses also tell what happened to Jacob!
    It is God who will set us right, if we keep seeking Him, He will make us holy and pure, we are not yet, we are saved, but still with a lot of darkness, Jacob is a type of a christian, we are saved, God saved us from the kingdom of darkness, but there is still a lot of darkness inside us, like there was in Jacob, we can all see how much self work there was in him. But this story shows that God is the One who will deal with it. Watchmen Nee wrote a study about it, why God is called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Why God ties himself to a man called Jacob, his old name, not to the new name, Israel. That is to show to all people that God is the one who will deal with human nature, self willed men, human strength, and human determination. And 1 Cor 4:5 tells us that it is not to our shame, but that God will praise us! God’s ways of dealing with us is beyond description! He turns everything around, while we would say, this all was to his shame, being so self willed and hardheaded, God praises him! I have to become sooo much more like Jesus. I was also impressed by the fact that Jacob had indeed got rid of his old man, like that we have to die to the old man, and that we do not do that at once, but there is a point where we do, just as Jacob. And that when we have died to our old self, then the second death has no effect on us. Someone wrote about overcoming, and Rev 2 and 3, wasn’t this what happened to Jacob, he overcame. It was God who was the director in this all, but God praised him.
    When we overcome the second death will not harm us. And that brings me to the topic of Mart, theology with a limp! I should considered my theology with a limp, as many things might be just a little different. (Except for the fact that Jesus saved me through the cross, that is Number One Theology) I always thought that the second death was the final one, at the last judgment, but the first death, which is not mentioned anywhere is death to our old self! If we have died to our old self, and we will if we hold on to Jesus and let the Holy Spirit do the work in us, then our death, the death of our body will not harm us, we had already died to this life here, and live in the spiritual life in Jesus Christ. Which does not mean that we lost our identity, or our own being. That is why God want us to wrestle. He wants us to be real, and truthful, that we do not follow His will because we have to, because we know we have to obey Him. But because we are absolutely convinced that His will is the best, better then our own, then our will will be the same as His. Or His will will be ours. Then He praises us. That is why we have to get to know Him better, knowing who He is, what His will is. Get to know Him.

  93. poohpity says:

    If we can come to a place where we can admit that our understanding of God is but a shadow of all that there is but God however knows all there is to know about us we will understand the limp in our theology. Even though we have that limp does not give reason to stop searching or seeking because there is so much to know it takes a life time. What thing is better than to spend a life time getting to know our God. (1 Cor 13:12 CEV) Before that verse comes the actions of what true love looks like. To a child the world revolves around them, they are selfish, self absorbed (1 Cor 13:11 CEV) as we mature we find out there is more out there beyond our little world.

    Even though we are called to have faith like a child we are not called to act childish demanding our own way and acting like life itself is about us. Then we can come to the point Job did acknowledging that he spoke of things to glorious for his understanding. Humbling to say the least.

  94. quietgrace says:

    Foreverblessed it is good you were able to take a holiday. Your message is refreshing to me as it is very obvious you have been with our Lord.

    Blessings in Jesus,
    Grace

  95. cherielyn says:

    Pat, just catching up on BTA & saw the comments several made about your husband, enough to know that he needs prayers, so I am including him in mine.

    After several days of problems getting on the internet, I’m finally back online. It’s been very frustrating.

  96. street says:

    If we can come to a place where we can admit that our understanding of God is but a shadow of all that there is but God however knows all there is to know about us we will understand the limp in our theology.

    Shadow? Knowledge of God? Do you know Jesus? Hebrews chapter one comes to mind, the upper room discourse comes to mind. Are we talking about the same God? Did I mention entering into His Rest? What about this Peace and Joy? My mind is reeling on this one. I think the limp comes from this world. yes we are still the clay and God is still shaping. think of the world as a spinning wheel. sometimes i get dizzy too. when that happens my best coarse of action is to turn to God. He makes my day when i get a gimps of Him. if you read God’s Diary could you say that you know Him. did He not say you would find Him if you search for Him with all your heart? the greatest command comes to mind here. that is a goal! do you think a limp comes from two truths coming together that can not be reconciled in the human mind? like Abraham offering his son. only he trusted God and did not get a limp. God keep you all in His perfect peace.

  97. poohpity says:

    street, do you know everything there is to know about God? Do you have a thorough understanding of all scripture?

  98. poohpity says:

    How can a finite mind understand the infinite?

  99. quietgrace says:

    Humility is the result of knowing God and knowing yourself.

    From Our Daily Bread 8/12/14

  100. belleu says:

    “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12

  101. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Quietgrace, for the ODB
    Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus 2 Tim 2:1-2(NIV) what a good example of being humble that Moody showed! When we get to know Jesus better, we will see more of His grace, and humble service.
    Thanks Bellue, also for showing that Jacob might have gotten the limp in the same way as Paul had the thorn in the flesh, because he had seen God, and was to be kept humble about it.
    Today I spoke to a lady, and she told about a person who she recently had led to Jesus, and now this person is moving to a different place. She asked God about this move, why that had to be, and God answered: because it is My work, and otherwise you might have seen it as your work.
    And that made her very humble.
    Even in serving there can be much pride. We want to serve the other. Maybe God is saying with the washing of the feet, there in the upper room: that we consider the other higher then ourselves.

    I do like this theme of theology with a limp, there are many things I have misunderstood in the bible.
    And the main theme of theology: that we are saved by faith in Christ, that sounds so simple, and yet is sooo deep. Everything dark in us, is taken away by Jesus on the cross. Everything. It is gone in the ocean of His love. Do I get this truth, deep in my heart? Do I grow in this grace? Do I then forgive others as I have been forgiven?

    Thanks Street for your questions, I think mine are in the same line of your thoughts. May God give rest to our thinking, may we live in His rest, and in His peace and love. May God bless us all.

    And it was Telliot who talked about overcoming, Aug 7, 5.25 pm or around that time.
    Jacob overcame there in that night of his fight, and God praised him for it! And there his old man was dead, and buried, and he lived in the newness of life that is in faith in Christ Jesus. Jacob is a great example for us christians!

  102. quietgrace says:

    col. 2:9 NIV says if we know Jesus we know God. I love how all the deep, deep theological questions/thinking always come back to Jesus!

  103. quietgrace says:

    That’s Col.2:9 NIV

  104. street says:

    poohpity says:
    August 12, 2014 at 7:00 am

    street, do you know everything there is to know about God? Do you have a thorough understanding of all scripture?

    of coarse not, but i know who to ask if i have a question. i also understand how we view scripture plays an important part in it’s interpretation which in itself can cause all kinds of problems.

    thank you LORD for the Spirit of Truth.

  105. street says:

    Hebrews 3:1 3 He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the [c]out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God’s] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power.

    God would not have any trouble in raising His Children. He really is crazy in love with His children. Looking forward……

  106. street says:

    ops Hebrews 1:3
    i need an editor.

  107. street says:

    23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

  108. poohpity says:

    street, if you admit that you do not know everything about God then why did you have problems with the paraphrase “If we can come to a place where we can admit that our understanding of God is but a shadow of all that there is but God however knows all there is to know about us we will understand the limp in our theology.” of 1 Cor 13:12 NLT? According to your reply of August 11, 2014 10:05 pm then went on to ask if I know Jesus because I admitted I only know a shadow of all there is to understand about God and the scriptures.

  109. poohpity says:

    So that was another good example of Mart’s point. We read what we think one is saying rather than what is actually being said. There is not only “Theology With a Limp” but it seems we communicate with a limp too.

  110. shawnkeally says:

    There will be no white flag upon this ship. – smk

  111. foreverblessed says:

    I did some reading on the book of Austin Fischer, in and out of Calvinsim. He describes how he became a calvininst, and how he grew out of it again. So there it seems to me that theology with a limp would be very appropriate to this theme.
    Why pinning it all down? Why not say, we do not really know, but God knows. Spurgeon was a calvinist, but he would ask God: Go and choose some more people. I would say, that is theology with a limp too.
    I myself do believe that God chooses people, but that in the end He wants to choose all. It is not that I can say that there is a bible verse to back it up but it is what I hope. Why would God leave the serpent in the garden, why did He not expel him out of it, when He put Adam and Eve there? There is a reason for it. Even the book of Job is telling me that God is still talking to everybody, how lost they might be.
    I might be rambling, but sometimes I think, I can say to God what is deep down in my heart, and discuss it with Him, even as God allowed that Jacob struggled with Him
    Why would this verse be in the bible:
    Love always hopes. 1 Cor 13:7
    God is love, so God is always hoping for everybody, how lost they might seem to be.
    Theology with a limp, I like it when it is about a matter such as this calvinism.
    It is another thing if I would evangalise like this. Maybe He does not want it when you tell somebody who is going on his way to being lost. “O there is always hope, just go on as you do. God has always hope for you.”

    But on the other hand, where the Spirit of God is there is freedom. Which means too, that if a person does not want to go to God, there is freedom, let him walk away from God. I would think, God is waiting for the time opportune.

    What to say? I can rely on God to inspire me.
    “I have put My words in your mouth,
    and covered you in the shadow of My hand,”
    Isa 51:16

  112. foreverblessed says:

    Hallo Shawn, welcome her. I do not want to post and just ignore you. But can you use some more words?
    Do you mean the ship, that is God’s, who is directing us to bring us home to Him. All of the ones who followed His call to leave everything and follow Him.
    THe gates of hell will not overcome it.

  113. quietgrace says:

    Shawn holding up a white flag would be too humbling, lol!

  114. street says:

    poohpity says:
    August 12, 2014 at 11:13 pm

    street, if you admit that you do not know everything about God then why did you have problems with the paraphrase “If we can come to a place where we can admit that our understanding of God is but a shadow of all that there is but God however knows all there is to know about us we will understand the limp in our theology.” of 1 Cor 13:12 NLT? According to your reply of August 11, 2014 10:05 pm then went on to ask if I know Jesus because I admitted I only know a shadow of all there is to understand about God and the scriptures.

    God’s person has been completely revealed. it is a lie to say we don’t know Him or to continue to live in darkness. people tend put thoughts or beliefs in a box of their mind in order to manage them. God can not be placed in a box. He will destroy the box. causing us distress for our good. sometimes we make the box bigger, but we have not learn our lesson yet. in the end let God be God. to be forever worshiped and praised

  115. phpatato says:

    Good Morning All

    Thank you to everyone for your continued prayers! So much!!

    In addition to “There is not only “Theology With a Limp” but it seems we communicate with a limp too.”, I came across this quote the other day that has had me placing it on the front burner in my mind……

    Quote: “”Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” S.Covey

  116. shawnkeally says:

    Just like the Oracle mentioned in the “Matrix”, Temet Nosce, Know thyself. Be confident in what you know and do not waver. – smk

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