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The Unchosen

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Flickr Photo by Melissa

Some time ago I read an article in the BBC Online magazine about the 500 year old silver mines of Bolivia’s Cerro Rico mountain.

According to journalist Catharina Moh the tunnels that riddle the mountain are like a death trap for the men and boys who still lug wheelbarrows of rock to the surface. Locals call it “the mountain that eats men.”

Moh tells the story of fifteen year old Marco who works a night shift in the mine’s dimly lit tunnels so that he can go to school during the days. Covered in sweat and dirt, he breathes the silica dust that leave miners with an average life span of 40. Since his father walked away, his mother and younger brothers couldn’t survive without his wages.

We know Marco only because of the journalist who wrote about him. But his story is familiar. Like Ishmael, the first son of Abraham, he didn’t ask to be born. He didn’t choose the father who had too many of his own problems to be able to provide for him. Neither was he chosen for a special purpose like his younger brother Isaac.

In the record of Genesis, Ishmael’s rejection started even before his birth. Soon after Hagar, his Egyptian domestic mother, became pregnant, she was thrown out of the house into the desert by Sara (Gen 16:1-14). It happened again several years later when Ishmael was just a young boy (Gen 21:14-21).

Yet both times the record makes it clear that, even though Hagar and her son were the result of Sara and Abraham’s poor judgment, the Father of heaven was watching. He loved Ishmael and his mother, and had a plan to bless their “unchosen” lives. Hearing their cries he assured them of his presence. He gave them a hope far beyond the wilderness that seemed ready to consume them.

Thousands of years later, the New Testament reflects on the ongoing generational implications of God’s love for both his chosen and unchosen people.

In the Apostle Paul’s letter to the Romans he writes as a chosen servant who could wish himself cursed from Christ if it could result in the salvation of his Jewish countrymen (Rom 9:1-5). Then in one of the most controversial passages of the New Testament he goes on to defend God’s right to choose some at the apparent expense of others (Rom 9:6-16).

Some interpret what Paul says about God’s choice of some over others as his right to mercifully grant eternal salvation to some— and not to others. Other interpreters believe the implications have more to do with being chosen or not to be God’s special “chosen nation” or “chosen ambassador” for Christ.

In any case, before Paul is done with the subject of “the chosen and unchosen” he has made a case that seems to level the ground as far as God’s ultimate purposes in election. While this section of his letter begins on a low note of agony (Rom 9:1-5) it ends on a high note of praise. Paul goes on to conclude that God concludes all in sin and unbelief so that he may have mercy upon all (Rom 11:29-32). Then he gives us one of the most wonderful expressions of praise we will ever read (Rom 11:29-36)

Even though Paul doesn’t answer all of our questions, he gives us reason to believe that there is a lot we have not yet been told (Deut 29:29).


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158 Responses to “The Unchosen”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    There is an anti-christ whose spirit has been around since the world began. Was this spirit “chosen” to be such or just happened as an affront to God’s plans?

    Is God not able to develop the story of existence or is he like us having to deal with unplanned events?

    God chose nations to punish Israel and some to even assist them.

    The fact that God took care of Ishmael and Hagar shows that even though Sarah pushed Abraham into a union with Hagar and the result a child out of sync with God’s announcement and instruction, that he would honor Abraham’s love and concern for them both and take care of them.

    When the Angel told Hagar that Ishmael would also become a great nation, did he mean great in the sense of wonderful, blessed and good, or great in the idea as a great many people?

    It seems that God chooses people to exact and accomplish His will. It would appear that if there are any un-chosen people it may be all those who live with His choices.

    It is written that God chose we Christian believers from the foundation of the world. Who then are the “Unchosen”?

    I don’t get this Mart are you trying to make a case for Islam?

    Steve

  2. Mart De Haan says:

    No, I’ve been thinking about expressions of the tenderness and care of God that can be overlooked while focusing on “the chosen”.

  3. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    It is always wise to mention the mystery of God’s ways, since God’s mind is far beyond our own in conceiving and working out the plans of the universe. (Isaiah 55:9) It seems to me there is a door (or window) open to full fellowship with God for all peoples. Election and non-election arguments have morphed in this era of greater global consciousness.

    Paul’s analogy of the wild and cultivated olive trees makes sense from the premise that “it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.” (Rom 11:17, 18)

    Plainly put, being chosen or being “unchosen” might be a matter of whether or not the olive branch (wild or cultivated) has heard and taken to heart the message of God’s great love and provision for all. Therefore, the work of telling the Good News is unfinished unless every creature has been told — sometimes with sacrificial effort to bear the message to the farthest place. Let none become arrogant!

    Blessings all day,
    Maru

  4. oneg2dblu says:

    Aren’t we actually showing support to a doctrine called the Second Chance here?
    Or, even a doctrine that says All Creation is ultimately going to be saved, or Heaven Bound regardless?
    Does not the (Gardener) God himself, prune for a purpose, graft for a purpose,, and cut off, (separate forever) for a purpose, those branches who are then thrown, by Him, into the fire to be destroyed?
    If the greatest gift is Love, and if one must possess Faith in order to please God, and God is a God of order, then we are saying here, that even Faith does not matter to God, because, “All Will Be Saved.”
    Aren’t we in our intellectual prowess, actually just trying to avoid the tension God Created by the darkness and the light, which He also created for a purpose?
    Why would “we choose,” to now undo that which God has already done?
    Why would there be a distinct difference between the chosen, and the unchosen, if there really exists to God, no Eternal difference?
    I don’t get it either, bu it does make for good discussion, and if that drives us into the Word, again, again. to me, that process alone is where we get blessed.
    Gary

  5. remarutho says:

    Dear All —

    If, as in the BBC article on Cerro Rico, the men and boys are Catholic on Sunday, but make offerings to the devil of the mine on workdays, then there is no hope but to repent of trusting in and praying to the god of the silver mine. Then, to ask God for forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus and to stop putting offerings of coca leaves, beer and cigarettes at the shrines.

    How many times did the children of Israel turn back to the ba’als in the time of the Judges? That whole tussle went on for 300 years! God is mighty patient with sons and daughters of Adam, it seems to me!

    Maru

  6. joycemb says:

    Oh the mystery that is God! Chosen is taken to mean more often that not that someone else has failed. Remember in school when we would line up and wait with baited breath to be ‘chosen’ to be on a team and how the last few, if you were one of those, felt so bad and knew the best and brightest/athletic were the ‘chosen’ elect and you weren’t? I don’t think that’s what God means at all. If I look at scripture through my life lens I would assume some are better than I am. Not unlike the 15 year old who works in the mine to feed his family. However, God’s ways are so much higher than ours. (preaching to the choir now, I know) Mercy and grace seems to level the playing field, according to scripture. Mysterious, loving, God we serve. Amen

  7. street says:

    mart quoted, ” Locals call it “the mountain that eats men.””

    Numbers 13:32 …. They said, “The land we explored devours those living in it. “

  8. street says:

    He didn’t choose the father who had too many of his own problems to be able to provide for him. Neither was he chosen for a special purpose like his younger brother Isaac.

    Matthew 20:7-9

  9. street says:

    He loved Ishmael and his mother, and had a plan to bless their “unchosen” lives. Hearing their cries he assured them of his presence. He gave them a hope far beyond the wilderness that seemed ready to consume them.

    been thinking about different covenants. adam through Jesus. three different periods of people with different depth of God revealed. people being “chosen” prior to abraham, people being “chosen” prior to the church, and people being “chosen” in the present and future. one covenant does not invalidate the one prior to. they just get better and better. Matthew 13:12 Luke 12:48

  10. street says:

    Romans 3:23 There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Romans 5:20
    But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

  11. street says:

    Ezekiel 34:27

  12. poohpity says:

    The chosen seem to be those through whom would be the ancestors of Jesus. It does not seem to have anything to do with any of their behaviors or actions but on God. Ismael was born under bondage from human effort which also seems to represent the law and Isaac was born through a promise which also seems to represent faith and trust in God. I am so thankful that God seems to want both the chosen and the chosen to experience His amazing grace and mercy not because of who they are but because of who God is.

  13. poohpity says:

    The chosen and the unchosen, lol.

  14. street says:

    Matthew 11:25-27
    25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 26 Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

  15. SFDBWV says:

    Over 10 inches of snow today and still coming down, I’ve plowed and cleaned off things 3 times and am about to go and do some more as soon as I get Matt up to his dinner at 3.

    This subject actually has several trains of thought from me and I have to be careful not to entwine them or trail off into too many thoughts at once. Leaving you and I both confused about what I may be trying to say.

    So let me get my political thoughts out of the way first.

    The Prime Minister of Israel just addressed the Congress of the United States with a stern warning not to agree to the nuclear deal with Iran as it is a bad choice and a deal with the devil.

    Obama and his lap dog Kerry disagree.

    The fear Israel has, has been voiced and declared already by the Iranian religious run government. “Death to Israel” and may I add “death to America” as well.

    Iran will develop a nuclear bomb as soon as it is able and will use it.

    It is written God will bless them that bless Israel and curse them that curse Israel.

    Is God to be mocked or tested?

    The Bible identifies Israel as a chosen people; but chosen for what?

    This is how I see it;
    Chosen to introduce God to the pagan world.
    Chosen to produce Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah.
    Chosen as an example to all nations of the earth in blessings through obedience and disasters through disobedience.

    Reading the prophesies given in Scripture I see that even though the nation of Israel dropped the ball, God still honors Abraham and rescues Israel at the end of the age.

    The scattered Jewish people were once again returned to their “Promised Land” in 1948 and stands alone as a steadfast ally to America in the Mid-East. All end time prophesy refers to the nation of Israel and her enemies.

    This current administration in my country is the first in my lifetime to show itself not to be a friend to Israel.

    As prophesy states that in the end Israel will stand alone with God’s its only protector, I am sickened to know that my country will abandon Israel in favor of her Islamic enemies.

    The only way that politically to me this can happen is the “rapture”, the snatching away of Christians from the world along with the Holy Spirit. Leaving the world to deal with its rejection of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

    Reading that only 144,000 are chosen out of the nation of Israel for a special purpose and salvation and that all who choose Christ are beheaded for their rejection of the religion of the ant-christ.

    What of the rest of the world? Are they chosen for destruction, because they are the “unchosen” or because of their own choices?

    Steve

  16. tracey5tgbtg says:

    The BBC article was heartbreaking. Why was I chosen to live in the U.S. and not in a country with such horrible hopelessness? The things that some people in this world face are unimaginable in the scope of suffering. We don’t get a choice of where we are born, who we are born to, and how we are raised and what we are taught to believe. We all work with the lives that God has given us.

    The Scripture verses that Mart included tell me that we do not know what God’s plans and judgments will be. Especially moving to my heart, Romans 11:32-33 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
    Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

    I’m afraid that some may find it annoying that I type out verses even though you can hover over the verses and they pop up on the screen. That works pretty well on a laptop, (or desktop) but on a phone or tablet, you generally get moved into the window with the verse, then you have to go back, and I don’t think many people actually click on the verses, and to me, the words that are written in the Bible are so beautiful and well worth ingesting.

    Joyce – your words about being the last to be chosen in picking teams really puts meaning to the idea of chosen or unchosen. How many people identify with the unchosen and feel that they are unworthy to be one of “God’s chosen” because they believe that God chooses only the saints who look so good on the outside.

    Maybe there are some who look into their hearts and know what is there is not good, and believe they have no hope at all with Christians and therefore no hope with God either. Maybe they don’t know that (Romans 9:15-16) … He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s DESIRE OR EFFORT, but on God’s MERCY.

    Matt 20:15-16

  17. street says:

    the parable of the different grounds comes to mind. three different grounds did not bear fruit. the last type of ground did bear fruit of 3 different measures. they all received good seed or God’s word.

    the wheat and the tares throws an interesting twist on this. tares are tares, did the ground let the tares grow or did the ground have to choose?

    make for yourselves purses that never wear out.

  18. poohpity says:

    Steve, I am a bit confused where in scripture does it say that only 144,000 are chosen from the nation of Israel for special purpose and salvation? Could it be that there is a misunderstanding of the prophesy and the rest of scripture outside of the Book of Revelations. What about all those from the nation of Israel that are already saved? What about all those Muslims that will give their lives to Christ? From what I have read that the Lord’s intent and desire is that ALL peoples from ALL over the world will be saved. So does the Lord not CHOSE ALL people? There will be those who do not accept His invitation but All are invited.

  19. oneg2dblu says:

    Let’s not forget this small point, “we were chosen” before the foundations of the world were laid, “I chose you.”
    So, we know that our works were probably not being considered, or are they, being that God knows both our beginnings and our ens, our heart, and how He would use us, in His Divine Plan.
    We are but pawns on a board awaiting His next move.
    Gary

  20. street says:

    poo these are the ones protected from God’s wrath in Revelation. they will enter the 1000 year rule. it’s a lot better than 8 souls.

  21. poohpity says:

    street, I think you may have misunderstood the point again.

  22. phpatato says:

    Revelation 7:4 – And a heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel – 12 tribes of Israel; 12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” (12,000 x 12 = 144,000) These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period.

    The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24–27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

    Steve, you said: “What of the rest of the world? Are they chosen for destruction, because they are the “unchosen” or because of their own choices?”

    It is my belief that they are facing destruction because of their own choices.

  23. joycemb says:

    Malachi 4:1-6

  24. poohpity says:

    Pat, I think some of Daniel’s and Zechariah’s prophesy you mentioned has already come to pass.

  25. joycemb says:

    Pat: It is my belief that they are facing destruction because of their own choices.

    I agree. Hebrews 9:28 NLT notice the last few words, “to all who are eagerly waiting for him”. Knowledge of/acceptance/devotion to Christ (devotion meaning to keep a clear conscience by obeying the law given to Moses as reminded of in Malachi 4:4)

  26. foreverblessed says:

    Psalm 136 rings out in my mind
    Whatever the question regarding this subject, the answer is:
    His mercy endures forever

    26 times it is repeated in this Psalm, so I try to think of 26 questions about this subject:
    If God chooses Jacob, and not Esau, what about Esau, is he lost?
    God’s mercy endures forever.
    What if God starts His 1000 years with Israel, will the rest be lost?
    God’s mercy endures forever
    What about Ishmael, he strifes with his brothers, what about him?
    His mercy endures forever.

  27. foreverblessed says:

    What if you are in hell, and finally your heart is changed and repentance has set in, and you “are eagerly waiting for Him” will you be lost anyway?

    His mercy endures forever

  28. jeff1 says:

    I believe we are witnesses in a post Christian world and that is what we were chosen to be prior to the beginning, a “Royal Priesthood.” I disagree that the unchosen are lost because to those who are chosen more is expected that I take to mean we are to be encouragement and help to those unchosen when the tribulation comes.

    We are not our own God will require our services when the going get tough and that is what God word teaches us that just as in Biblical days it was tough being a follower of Christ, in these modern times it will be just as difficult. We may fall away like Peter did three times but what God expects of us is to be a living sacrifice for those who have fallen away or were never taught to begin with.

    Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war
    With the cross of Jesus going on before
    Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng
    Blend with ours your voices in a triumph song

    Christ the Royal Master, leads against the foe
    Forward into battle see His banners go, oh

    Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war
    With the cross of Jesus going on before
    Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane
    But the cross of Jesus constant will remain

    Marching as to war
    (Marching as to war)
    Oh, we’re marching as to war
    (Marching as to war)

  29. SFDBWV says:

    It is 7 below zero as I write this and most likely will dip further downward before sunrise. I have observed for years that it is always coldest just before sun up. Just as I have that it is always darkest before the dawn.

    Foreverblessed it is my personal hope that because our Lord’s mercies endure forever that there is always hope for the lost.

    Jesus tells a story about the rich man and the beggar, because He names the beggar it is one of those stories Jesus tells I believe to be factual not just an allegory.

    Before the great white thrown of judgment mentioned in Revelation, whereas the unsaved are resurrected for judgment, there appears to be a dual place where the souls of people go after death. One being Paradise as mentioned in the story as well as from the lips of Jesus as He hung on the cross and gave encouragement to a dying thief, the other being a place of torment where we find the rich man of the story.

    Peter tells us that after the death of Jesus on the cross that He went into this place of torment and brought the good news that forgiveness was made possible through the Gospel to all the dead souls of men from before the flood up to date.

    I have always imagined that no one chose to remain there in torment over Jesus’ offer of freedom from it.

    Yet over the course of human history from the time of the cross forward people have made the wrong choices and so are held there in a place of torment awaiting judgment from God.

    I am so thankful that it is God and God alone who will judge and not me nor others who are flawed in character. Following from that point in future events it is written that death and hell are thrown into that lake of fire spoken of.

    What that means to me is that there is no more death and no more hell they are done away with forever.

    Whether some like it or not God will have His way and all souls live again with Him in perfect harmony.

    For those who believe that not fair because of the sin in others and so deserve eternal punishment need to reexamine their own hearts and think beyond the moment.

    It made it to minus 8 below zero as I have written this. That didn’t take too long.

    Thank God today for your many blessings and for being chosen for salvation not destruction.

    Steve

  30. street says:

    poo i think the confusion is our attempt to understand what the requirements of salvation are. we are dancing all around it on this blog. if you put up a list of requirements and follow it, is that the same as living by law or worshiping an idol? where is faith when people do this? is this the same as putting God in a box? thinking, i have this checked off my bucket list? it doesn’t work in any relationship. the box will be broken. this activity leads to judgment in personal relationships. faith is to lead us to hope and love. God’s Word is a sign post for direction in life. it tells us if we are off the narrow road. there will come times when the road seems unmarked and there is a sense of absent of God’s presents. we have to remember the sign post He has already given us, to not settle for anything less than Him.

  31. bubbles says:

    The sun is shining this morning. There must be large ice crystals or something on the snow’s surface. I’ve seen snow sparkling on the sun but nothing like this. I wish all of you could enjoy this with me. I’m thankful for the gift of eyesight this morning.

  32. SFDBWV says:

    Bubbles we ended up with just under a foot of new snow from the storm, and like you the very cold temps this morning (-9) have made it a beautiful morning.

    I am glad you could enjoy it and wanted you to know I have too.

    Steve

  33. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    Having said all I can about God’s perfect will to save all creation –every being of every kind of religious belief, I can only agree with your statement about Paul’s letter to the church at Rome, Mart:

    “Then he gives us one of the most wonderful expressions of praise we will ever read (Rom 11:29-36)”

    (vv 32-36) > “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

    O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

    ‘For who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has been his counselor?’

    ‘Or who has given a gift to him,
    to receive a gift in return?’

    For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen.”

    36F and mostly clear under the full moon. Remember to turn the clock forward one hour Saturday night — those whose region observes Daylight Saving.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  34. oneg2dblu says:

    Hell now becomes the Second Chance Place of Salvation for all there?
    Who writes that premise on the minds of man, other than man,who can so easily be deceived, “Did God really say?”

    Now, we can say that the sinner on the cross, would be Following Christ after the cross, would also go down into that place of terror with Him first, then after gathering all the other sinners there, move on to Paradise?

    “Today, you will be with me in paradise, (the Words of Christ) but first, let’s remember, I’m going into this place of “short term torment,” to bring other souls with us into paradise as well.

    Gee, it seems the more we learn the less we actually really know what the incomprehensible plan of the Lord actually is.
    Thank God for that.
    If we only had each other to teach each other, total confusion would be the end result.
    Today, we see in some of the minds of man, that all this darkness now being worshiped in the world today will ultimately be rewarded, and come to light.

    There is a message folks, that reigns against, and leaves powerless, the Great Commission, as it does no longer matter to the rest of the darkening world.

    Wow! How much more eternal deception will we spread in the name of Following Christ?
    Gary

  35. poohpity says:

    street, the requirements of salvation is one thing that I have never been confused about. That is the only thing I know for sure. One reason I preface the things I say with “it seems” etc. rather than speaking like I am an authority on any issue because I understand I am a student still in the process of learning. So I hope you are speaking about yourself when you say we are dancing around it on this blog. This blog is the way it is because there are people here the very same people that Jesus gave His life for and if that is the only thing we know for sure that will be enough.

  36. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Gary —

    It might be important to read the Scripture, or it might not, but here is what Paul said on the matter of the election of God’s chosen:

    “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.” Romans 11:32

    God’s mercy is very wide. Salvation comes to those who trust and obey. I believe there are seventy times seven times of forgiveness for those who sin.

    Maru

  37. SFDBWV says:

    I have in the past referred to the idea that our Heavenly Father is a micro-manager; in keeping with that concept and our topic, my train of thought takes me out of the stories of the Bible and over to the remainder of civilization that lived, thrived and existed all the while the drama of Scripture was being played out.

    As our world shrinks further and further, almost weekly I read of a “new” lost city or civilization being discovered.

    Profoundly interesting to me is the fact that all ancient civilizations revolved around their belief in a deity or deities and their survival being left to the whims and generosity of their imagined god or god’s.

    Even more profound is the wide spread use of human sacrifice thought to “please” their respective deities.

    I can’t help but believe that within all of these ancient peoples there existed all of the same moral characterizations of people just the same as today and of course all of the amoral people as well.

    Because I have the Bible, I know that God encoded into mankind’s DNA the existence of God and as a result of Adam and Eve’s sin, the knowledge of good and evil.

    So in my understanding even though all of these people were not formally “chosen” and represented in Scripture they still were “chosen” for life and so lived out their own particular lives with all the same joys and unhappiness we do today, with all the same disappointments and yes the same questions we all have.

    Were they abandoned by God because of the circumstance of who they were and where they were born? I think not. It is my belief that they strained to know their creator same as we do today and may have even had fireside stories of creation handed down from their ancestors.

    So important to God were and are these “unchosen” peoples that He became Jesus of Nazareth lived, died and rose again for “them” as well as all else, and sent us as disciples to their children in order to educate, explain and offer the good news.

    Like Mart has said, I too believe that God cared for the “unchosen” people who live and lived along the sidelines of His story represented in the pages of the written Word.

    It almost looks as if the “chosen” may have suffered more for having been “chosen”.

    Steve

  38. remarutho says:

    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. May the Lord lift up His countenance to you and grant you peace. Amen.

    Num 6:24, 25, 26

  39. street says:

    We know Marco only because of the journalist who wrote about him. But his story is familiar.

    Hebrews 12:2

    James 5:11

    Revelation 2:3

  40. street says:

    does suffering increase faith?

  41. joycemb says:

    Street the short answer is; if it doesn’t make you bitter, it makes you better.

  42. poohpity says:

    You are traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. Your next stop, the Twilight Zone!

  43. joycemb says:

    LOL! That’s funny pooh! Only Christians call it the Spirit realm, beyond imagination!

  44. street says:

    more questions

    does suffering increase righteousness?

    does suffering increase humility?

  45. street says:

    joycemb is what your saying it depends on the condition before the event?

  46. poohpity says:

    Never thought the twilight zone had anything to do with spirituality it has everything to do with humanity.

  47. poohpity says:

    Spirituality gets rid of confusion and brings about sounds minds.

    And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. 7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.

    8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. (Col 2:6-10 NLT)

  48. joycemb says:

    Street I think that suffering is common to all of mankind, some suffer more, some less, but the depth of suffering all hinges on ones belief system. All suffer, ALL. Marco may not even be aware of his suffering, to him it may seem normal. I knew a man who grew up on an Indian reservation who said he was very happy until he left the reservation and saw how little he really had and became miserable trying to live up to the white man’s standards. Even the rich man walked away sad when Jesus said he had to put God before his riches. Yes, the condition, our poverty, needs to be addressed and accepted before we can truly follow Christ. Hope I’m being clear, I can get lost in my thoughts sometimes and get off course.

    Pooh the ‘twilight zone’ has everything to do with the spirit realm. They both contain events beyond human reasoning; miracles, things that defy logic or even the laws of physics.

  49. joycemb says:

    Not saying the ‘twilight zone’ is the zone of the Holy Spirit, just the zone beyond the physical world.

  50. joycemb says:

    The show of the same name used to scare me when I was a kid, but since I knew Jesus nothing scares me anymore!

  51. joycemb says:

    Pooh I completely agree with everything you said at 11:19a

  52. fadingman says:

    Paul, a member of God’s chosen people, traveled among the Gentiles (the unchosen peoples) to tell them Jesus died for them as well. God chose the unchosen also. There is no difference between Jew or Gentile. Even the unchosen, if he is in Christ (God’s Chosen One) is himself chosen.

  53. poohpity says:

    You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

  54. poohpity says:

    I believe giving consideration and weight to the words “chosen” or “unchosen” one may tend to fall on the side of pride so then maybe it has more to do with “all” people and we could be more concerned with the depths of what Jesus Christ actually did for mankind.

  55. joycemb says:

    I Peter 2:9 NLT the use of the word chosen has to do with duty/responsibility.

  56. joycemb says:

    Duty/responsibility are not a good choice of words, more like the outcome or as you said Pooh, “the depths of what Jesus Christ actually did for mankind”.

  57. joycemb says:

    I am proud to be chosen by Christ Jesus to be His follower. Not for anything I did, but for what He did for me!

  58. poohpity says:

    Are you fulfilling your responsibility of being an ambassador for Christ, a royal priesthood by showing the goodness of God? Does that not mean the goodness of God was showing grace to those who are undeserving or are our enemies or those we do not agree with or those we are angry with or those that are murders, liars, living different sexual lives? If so then what is there to be proud of if it is the Spirit of God working within us? Rather than being proud would it not be more fitting to be grateful. In being grateful one may not risk losing sight of how it all comes about into being.

  59. joycemb says:

    I do none of those things well, I am a work in progress, but of Christ I am proud of and grateful for for working with a wretch like me! The One who does all things well.

  60. joycemb says:

    Christ in me, my hope of glory.

  61. joycemb says:

    Every day my prayer is, More love, more mercy Lord for me and others.
    Pooh I know I have failed to love you and for that I am sorry. Perhaps God will give me that which I am lacking.

  62. street says:

    since there is no difference in “chosen” and “not” chosen
    and both need grace and mercy
    what does suffering kindle?

  63. jeff1 says:

    While I believe that all will be well in the end I find it difficult to see it now.

    Having seen violence and hatred since I was 15 it is difficult to imagine a world without it.

    I do not want to be judgemental but if I could see some glimmer of a change in attitudes then I would be more hopeful.

    I am tired of men’s judgements for it is pot calling the kettle black as I see it.

    With God’s judgement we will have righteousness that leaves no one unsure of their salvation.

    Today as in all through history men will not take responsibility for their actions leaving as I see it in God’s hands to pass judgement.

    According to men God is on their side, and if God is on their side then the other side is wrong, but the other side says God is on their side too so their is stalemate. I do not see it like that for it is for us to align our hearts with God.

    It is mankind’s failure to see and do this that leaves God with little choice in his judgements.

    I do not believe that God will leave anyone in torment for eternity and long for his righteousness to rule the earth as in heaven and in doing so alleviate men’s wrath on this earth and not God’s wrath.

  64. poohpity says:

    Joyce you failed me in no way. I never expected anything from you. Our discussion has nothing to do with our relationship so please let that go. I thought we were discussing the topic so please do not take it personally.

  65. joycemb says:

    Pooh when convicted I take it personally. Letting go…

  66. joycemb says:

    Street I just think that suffering is a product of sin, i.e the Garden and the pronouncements that came with the fall.

  67. joycemb says:

    Job got a ‘fresh lesson’ on the cost of our rebellion, don’t you think?

  68. SFDBWV says:

    Feeling as though there may be some not acquainted with Jesus preaching to those in prison. So I will give a couple examples of Scripture for their learning.

    1Peter 3:18, 19, 20 Isaiah 42:7

    I only want to say this to you Gary; why are you so preoccupied with insisting sinners are punished instead of looking for their forgiveness?

    Steve

  69. street says:

    dear joycemb, job got more than a “fresh lemon” he got an Audience with God!

  70. street says:

    i can not sugar coat this or explain it away.

    Matthew 25:31-46

  71. jeff1 says:

    I do not believe God intended us to focus on whether sinners should be punished as we all are sinners in one sense or another and as such none of us are in a position to say who or who not should be punished. It is God’s call and grumble we may but God will do as he sees fit i.e. vengeance is mine saith the Lord.

    We do well to examine ourselves for I have found more deception in myself which I did not realise was there until I looked deeper within.

    When you realise that you are not as good as you first thought then you see others differently and realise that it is only God who can judge.

    I think it depends on how righteous you see yourself and I struggle with this because though I would not intentionally do harm to anyone I am not above having hatred in my heart or thoughts so perhaps if you do not struggle with these thoughts then you will see yourself as a righteous person in which case you may feel justified in judging others.

  72. joycemb says:

    Verse 41 of Matt. 25 has a footnote description; Heb 6:8 I guess it explains the difference between those who will be saved and those who will not, and how we can know. No mention of a 2nd chance here. Maybe there is scripture I’m not aware of?

  73. joycemb says:

    Street did you really mean fresh ‘lemon’? Very funny and poignant.

  74. joycemb says:

    Street and yes he got an audience with God, and don’t we all hope for that some day!

  75. joycemb says:

    Street Jesus was addressing the Hebrews in Mathew who were using God to put others down.

  76. joycemb says:

    Romans 3:9, Romans 11:32

  77. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… I’m still growing and still stuck in my own thinking about what Christ taught in Matthew 7:13, That there are two roads, and not that all roads lead to Paradise,as others here may choose think.

    If all the judgement of God is to only show mercy, then why bother holding court in the first place?

    If everyone is ultimately going upstairs to the banquet hall anyhow, why would God first hold some of them in the dark basement, or whatever you might call it, and then bless them anyhow?

    Doesn’t God’s word say He will not be patient with mankind forever?

    That is why as you say, I am so “preoccupied” with my thinking about such things like the purpose of the Great Commission.

    But, if God ultimately only shows mercy, then there is no need to send out the troops, or disciples, or share His Gospel, and I am not yet ready to give up on those commands given for a purpose.
    Gary

  78. joycemb says:

    Dear Street, I am reading The Royal Road by Thomas a Kempis. In it he writes regarding suffering:

    There is no escaping the cross. Either you will experience physical hardship or tribulation of spirit in your soul. At times you will be forsaken by God, at time troubled by those about you and, what is worse, you will often grow weary of yourself. You cannot escape, you cannot be relieved by any remedy or comfort but must bear with it as long as God wills. For He wishes you to bear trial without consolation, to submit yourself wholly to Him that you may become more humble through suffering. No one understands the passion of Christ so thoroughly or heartily as one who has suffered similarly. I wonder if Job met Jesus face to face during his visit with God. If not, I’m sure Jesus was looking over Gods shoulder with a knowing smile on his face.

  79. joycemb says:

    I should have put a space between similarly. and I wonder if…

  80. oneg2dblu says:

    Maru… Yes, God’s mercy is very wide, and salvation comes to those who tryst and obey, and as an example for forgiveness, 70 times 7 is the number used.

    All are certainly true, and scripturally based, as premise.

    Thanks for sharing.

    To all I ask…

    How about all those times that God has poured out His wrath upon the disobedient, the wicked, the stiff-necked and wayward people?

    Are not those things also part of His truth, and don’t they equally support a premise?

    Can we say with equal enthusiasm that God is patient and merciful, and yet, His word declares that He will not always be so?

    Did not Christ say, “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two, and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter -in-law against mother-in-law.”

    Luke 12:51,52,53

    We wonder why this tension still exists today, don’t we?

    Oh yeah, it is truth, and it is scripture based.

    Gary

  81. street says:

    joycemb said,”Street and yes he got an audience with God, and don’t we all hope for that some day!”

    would you say praying is an audience with God?

    i remind you,He is at liberty to respond at the proper time.

  82. street says:

    thomas kempus said,”At times you will be forsaken by God, at time troubled by those about you and, what is worse, you will often grow weary of yourself.

    God said,”….. for He Himself has said, “I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,” 6 so that we confidently say,

    “The Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid.
    What will man do to me?”

  83. street says:

    gary yes He brought division and on the night before He died He prayed for unity in His followers. John 17:11

  84. street says:

    oh gary i forgot there is no agreement between light and darkness.

  85. street says:

    being shrewd as a snake and innocent as a dove comes to mind.

  86. SFDBWV says:

    Since the coming of Jesus of Nazareth into the world and with the exception of His death on the cross where has the wrath of God been seen or exacted upon any nation or people?

    The whole of the OT Scriptures leads us up to Christ and the punishment of all past present and future sins of mankind poured out upon Him on the cross.

    Mankind with all its wars and evil, as well as its charity and kindness is in a season of “grace”.

    The wrath of God is being stored up in the vials poured out upon the world during the last 3 and ½ years of the tribulation period.

    Gary have you chosen to be a follower of Jesus Christ only out of fear of hell or because it is the right attitude to develop in living with other people?

    And by right attitude I mean His attitude.

    I don’t particularly believe there are any “unchosen”. I think that matter is fully in the hands of God as who and how He uses people to obtain His results.

    Steve

  87. saled says:

    Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, Joseph and his brothers, even the two disciples who asked for the best positions along side Jesus, sibling rivalry seems to have been instituted from the beginning. Its purpose? To reveal what’s in our hearts? But notice the mercy extended to the ‘unchosen’ in these situations. The posts between Steve and Gary are good examples of sibling rivalry.

  88. SFDBWV says:

    Saled I feel very insulted right now, so would you please explain why you feel my discussions are an example of rivalry.

    Steve

  89. saled says:

    Sorry, Steve. My comment was kind of ‘tongue in cheek’, meant to get a response. But I do think that at the fall, Adam and Eve blessed us with this propensity to seek our individuality and to seek recognition for it. We don’t like it when someone appears more ‘chosen’ than ourselves. Gary’s comment at 6:15 last night mentions the verses from Luke where Jesus says that he came to cause division. So is division a good thing? Maybe it is necessary for now. Maybe the examples of Issac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, etc. are examples of the divide we must experience on our way back to unity.

  90. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    The BBC journalist quotes Marco:

    “I want to be something better, not work in the mine… I’d like to get a degree, to be a lawyer,” he says.

    Then the journalist adds:

    But for now the family would not survive without his earnings. (bbc.com)

    You compare Marco to Ishmael, Mart, but his mom and the other two kids in the family would not survive without his work in the silver mine. Abraham at least provided for the son Hagar bore to him, while Marco’s dad abandoned him and the others to starve.

    I cannot imagine the dangers and the hardship Marco faces daily to provide for his family. He works at night so he can attend school during the day.

    Why would I sit in a padded chair in a heated home, with a cup of coffee and condemn this young man who has such hope for the future — and who is willing to put his life on the line for his brother/sister and his mom?

    Who am I to quote Jesus saying, “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two, and two against three…”? Who am I to condemn Marco who struggles so hard to keep his family together and fed? Just asking, Gary.

    How about you walk a mile in Marco’s zapatos before you condemn him.

    Maru

  91. remarutho says:

    correction: There are four kids in Marco’s family, not three.
    Maru

  92. jeff1 says:

    Steve you ask Gary if he chose to be a follower of Christ for fear of hell or because it is the right attitude to develop in living with other people.

    It was fear of hell was the reason I became a follower of Christ. It also brought me into a closer relationship with the real Christ.

    I would be concerned that if I had not feared hell that I would not have developed a relationship with Christ at all.

    Is it not so that I am who I am in Christ and you are who you are in Christ? We are all partakers in the body of Christ.
    If we look for fault in each other we will find it for none of us are worthy, we must rise above condemning each other for we do more damage to the body of Christ by criticising each other for our weaknesses than any non-believers do.

    We need to work to our own strengths and understand that others do too, then we will feel at ease about asking help with weaknesses and come together to help each other overcome that which is burdensome to one and not to another.

    We are in a post Christian era and many have fallen away or have never come to the faith that we have. Whatever our experiences and for whatever reasons we follow Christ but not perfectly.

    Non believers do not need to see division in us for it turns them away from Christ. There is nothing that will put people off God like division in the body of Christ and by our words to each other we are reflecting a broken body.

    We say we want to do right by Christ but we hurt him much more with our words than our actions.

    Think of the words of the communion:

    So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.

  93. poohpity says:

    With Paul conclusions in that Romans 9 passage it seems to be saying that God has chosen some over others. He chose Jacob over Esau and Joseph over his others brothers for special purpose. Does it seem God cared more for one over the others, I do not think so but it does seem like the choices were based on which heart would be more receptive to God’s leading.

    Paul goes on to say that all Israel is not Israel nor those born from Abraham are Abraham’s which may also imply that not all who “say” they are Christians are actually followers of Christ. One can on the outside be born genetically as an Israelite but their hearts do not follow God nor depend on Him. Did God know in advance which would be submissive to Him I believe yes and possibly knowing before hand is why the decisions were made of who to use.

    Paul used this comparison often it seems for those who live in their own strength by outwardly following the law of Moses but their hearts are far from God. Jesus also spoke of this many times in the Gospels. As street pointed out with the parable of the soils some are just not fertile enough for His roots to grow deep into and others only end up with a superficial relationship not wanting to go any deeper. Does God love one of those more than the other may not be the right question but rather which person loves God.

  94. SFDBWV says:

    Well Saled, I forgive your insult, not kind of, but for sure. I don’t see any relationship to any questions I have ask Gary to be in any light, a division from Jesus Christ nor in any form of a rivalry for being chosen.

    Perhaps you should just have given your thoughts on the subject and left Gary and I out of it.

    The division Jesus speaks of between families and people are clearly in either accepting Him or not. It is their choice.

    Moving on.
    Every morning when I turn on the TV for Matt there are several advertisements asking the viewer to symbolically adopt a child in Central or South America, showing them drink water from a ditch or going through a dump for something to eat.

    It is always the same story, they have to gather sticks or some other work in order to feed their family. Of course the answer is always to send money and money will solve all their problems.

    Their father is either dead or has abandon them and their mother seems only able to just keep having children she can’t afford.

    The way out of poverty is always going to be some form of education and an adherence to the ethics outlined in Scripture and of course obedience to God.

    It is the choices of our parents that have placed us where we begin, but at some point in our lives it is our choices that place us where we are.

    Everyone is chosen by God to be blessed, it is our choices that are stumbling blocks not His un-choosing us.

    I think I have had enough of this subject, so I will see you all in the next one.

    Steve

  95. poohpity says:

    The disciples bickered over who Jesus loved more and who would have places of honor in His kingdom but Jesus turned that question around by asking which one loved Him more than they loved anyone else. Have you chosen Jesus? Or is His name just words that are thrown around like a badge of honor outwardly yet not honored in your heart?

  96. SFDBWV says:

    Vivian when I posted my last comment I seen yours and out of love and respect for you I wanted to just say a little more before I leave for the day.

    Just a few subjects back we talked about questions we ask. The questions I have ask are often meant to be more as a doorway to looking inside oneself rather than an answer to a question.

    Why am I a follower of Christ? If it is only that I believe it will keep me out of eternal punishment, I will have missed the whole purpose of Christ altogether.

    I agree that may be the initial fear some people have instilled into their thinking and so a normal response to such a thought as eternal punishment.

    However if that is all that we offer to unbelievers in the disguise of the Gospel we are only promoting fear, not the blessed hope Jesus offers.

    My own commitment to being a Christian began when I was being formed in my mother’s womb. As she prayed for me my spirit was being nurtured along with my earthly needs. After I was born her love and prayers for me never went unheard nor were wasted.

    My early indoctrination into church were always about a loving Heavenly Father and loving Christ.

    The very first time I ever heard a preacher preaching hell fire and damnation to young people and watching them cry because of his browbeating them and accusing them of going to hell because they listened to that rock and roll and smoked cigarettes, I knew his message was wrong, and I was just a child.

    I will forever reject fear as a means to introduce God and His Son Jesus, and use only His love, care and giving nature to show Christ.

    I felt I had to share that with you Vivian and everyone else who reads it. I am just glad that by whatever means you came to be a believer I am happy for you.

    Steve

  97. poohpity says:

    Steve, did you use God’s love, care and giving nature in your response to saled? :(

  98. poohpity says:

    Or was it a reaction to pride being bruised because of thinking yourself better than Gary that you were insulted when she lumped you both together?

  99. street says:

    chosen….been thinking of a new tangent.
    it has to do with who we are and where we are placed. God chose all and made all to be placed where He wished in the body, circumstance, time period, and the authority figures over us and the ones we are responsible for.
    a potter if you will.
    where much is given much is expected.
    another thought comes to mind is, the one who is faithful in little is faithful in much.

  100. street says:

    steve i think you are correct in saying fear or suffering will not save. it will change behavior but not the heart. i believe people come to salvation because of God’s love not any other reason. sure fear and suffering can kindle need for God, but i remind you our parents discipline did not completely remove the foolishness from our hearts.

  101. street says:

    been thinking of the underlying current in the bbc article. i think it appeals to liberal theology. the thought that human flesh can save you. don’t work the mine it is dangerous and the silica will kill you. not only that the owner is steeling from you. to name a few. if you have faith and not work someone will come and take care of you with free money. God already promised to take care of you. the sun and rain still come on the unrighteous did not God set His Love on you in Christ? liberal theology suggest that you can save your body of death some how or save another through your efforts. God chose a higher and more costly route to salvation, love.

  102. street says:

    been thinking some more. the jews jealously guarded the temple so as to not make it unclean and defile many. i wonder if when the roman’s came and entered they where found out to be a fraud? they complained there was nothing there!

  103. poohpity says:

    If any of you has the time there is a beautiful 2 part series on Day of Discovery called “The Potter” that seems to be a life application of this topic. :-)

  104. joycemb says:

    Steve I also agree along with Street that fear and suffering do not change the heart. It was God’s love that impressed me into serving Him, not running away from my abusive past. Ah what a glorious day/change that became, the beginning of the rest of my life of loving service.

  105. joycemb says:

    SFDBWV says:

    March 7, 2015 at 5:36 am

    Since the coming of Jesus of Nazareth into the world and with the exception of His death on the cross where has the wrath of God been seen or exacted upon any nation or people?

    Steve I was thinking about this statement and peoples/nations like Atlantis, the Incas and many other indigenous peoples that have disappeared; (not to mention the native American Indians who were so brutally dispersed, hunted, forced into white schools and punished for using their native language along with being refashioned in appearance to look like whites). I wonder if the neighboring groups looked on these devastations as the wrath of a god? Or, if it was perhaps the wrath of God? I think that each generation has it’s apocalyptical events that make them wonder, is this the end? We are certainly doing that now also with the wars and such in the Middle East.

    Yes, God is the potter, we are the clay. Chosen for whatever use He has for us. But all being destructed eventually, as clay pots usually end up. The good news is our spirit will live eternally with God in peace and indestructability; as chosen sons of God in His eternal kingdom by grace, if we choose to accept that great grace/salvation.

  106. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, If anybody should know about false pride or anything about NOT using God’s Love, Care, and Giving nature in responses to others here, I believe that would be you.

    Why do you harass Steve so much?…is it jealousy derived from false pride because he is so highly respected?

  107. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, could you tell us what your jabs at Steve are generated from?

  108. poohpity says:

    To me each generation has horrible people who think that they are better than another race, culture, socioeconomic status, religion, gender so they seem bent on destruction emotionally and physically which shows the absence of God not results His wrath. His wrath was taken out on His Son who made the choice do to the will of the Father. Even if we do not choose to accept it He still did it because of God’s great love for mankind not because anyone would ever love Him but because He loved us.

  109. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours as it is 33 this morning and windy. March wind is always a welcome event here.

    Steve

  110. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours as it is 33 this morning and windy. March wind is always a welcome event here.

    Steve

  111. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours as it is 33 this morning and windy. March wind is always a welcome event here.

    Steve

  112. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours as it is 33 this morning and windy. March wind is always a welcome event here.

    Steve

  113. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours as it is 33 this morning and windy. March wind is always a welcome event here.

    Steve

  114. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours as it is 33 this morning and windy. March wind is always a welcome event here.

    Steve

  115. joycemb says:

    Good day all! I forgot to set my clocks ahead so guess what, I got an extra hour of sleep anyway as I didn’t really get up until 10:45am. wow, retirement is sooo nice that way and even my cat didn’t wake me earlier as she usually does!

    Now, I have a couple things to say about yesterdays rant (blog). My first thought is, if this is church I’m leaving. But decided to leave my thoughts on it one more time. (not leaving really)

    Concerning Steve, his feelings were hurt and with the load he carries I can certainly understand the amount of work and effort, especially as he is older-like me- that it takes to accomplish all he does, all that has been put on his plate, so to speak. But being the gracious man he is he forgave, I like that and that’s how Christians should behave. But then, on top of the misunderstanding Pooh tells him he is prideful. That was uncalled for and unchristlike, like kicking someone when they are already down. And this event is the same trouble I encountered with judgement and curses within the organized churches I used to attend.

    Steve I know you to be a ‘big’ man in the flesh with your responsibilities/duties and in the Spirit, even though I don’t know you personally at all. Yet you have the humility and grace to forgive and admit your own shortcomings from time to time. I think as a ‘leader’ here you will always be challenged by some, but that’s the cost of discipleship, isn’t it. Even though I don’t always agree with you on all issues, I still hold you in the deepest respect along with the courage and strength you show as a follower of Christ.

    ( And yes I am expecting the wrath of a god to come down on me for posting this.)

  116. joycemb says:

    Good day all! I forgot to set my clocks ahead so guess what, I got an extra hour of sleep anyway as I didn’t really get up until 10:45am. wow, retirement is sooo nice that way and even my cat didn’t wake me earlier as she usually does!

    Now, I have a couple things to say about yesterdays rant (blog). My first thought is, if this is church I’m leaving. But decided to leave my thoughts on it one more time. (not leaving really)

    Concerning Steve, his feelings were hurt and with the load he carries I can certainly understand the amount of work and effort, especially as he is older-like me- that it takes to accomplish all he does, all that has been put on his plate, so to speak. But being the gracious man he is he forgave, I like that and that’s how Christians should behave. But then, on top of the misunderstanding Pooh tells him he is prideful. That was uncalled for and unchristlike, like kicking someone when they are already down. And this event is the same trouble I encountered with judgement and curses within the organized churches I used to attend.

    Steve I know you to be a ‘big’ man in the flesh with your responsibilities/duties and in the Spirit, even though I don’t know you personally at all. Yet you have the humility and grace to forgive and admit your own shortcomings from time to time. I think as a ‘leader’ here you will always be challenged by some, but that’s the cost of discipleship, isn’t it. Even though I don’t always agree with you on all issues, I still hold you in the deepest respect along with the courage and strength you show as a follower of Christ.

    ( And yes I am expecting the wrath of a god to come down on me for posting this.)

  117. street says:

    dear mart thanks for not posting my disjointed thoughts.
    i did find a verse that brings them together and might set well with the discussion it in Mark 4:41 They became very much afraid and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?”

  118. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours as it is 33 this morning and windy. March wind is always a welcome event here.

    Steve

  119. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all…When Christ brought his explanation of division into his teaching in Luke 12:52. He used the words, “from now on.”
    I see this division is still going on everywhere, even in the house of God today.
    Those who are led by men who twist the word for the itching ears, they know better, but choose to play to the masses, as the masses will no longer tolerate the truth.
    Sound familiar?
    It is scriptural, and it is truth.
    The narrow road was not designed for the masses, but the wide road certainly was, and with all those twisted messages that fit it so well.
    Be Blessed, Gary

  120. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all…When Christ brought his explanation of division into his teaching in Luke 12:52. He used the words, “from now on.”
    I see this division is still going on everywhere, even in the house of God today.
    Those who are led by men who twist the word for the itching ears, they know better, but choose to play to the masses, as the masses will no longer tolerate the truth.
    Sound familiar?
    It is scriptural, and it is truth.
    The narrow road was not designed for the masses, but the wide road certainly was, and with all those twisted messages that fit it so well.
    Be Blessed, Gary

  121. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all…When Christ brought his explanation of division into his teaching in Luke 12:52. He used the words, “from now on.”
    I see this division is still going on everywhere, even in the house of God today.
    Those who are led by men who twist the word for the itching ears, they know better, but choose to play to the masses, as the masses will no longer tolerate the truth.
    Sound familiar?
    It is scriptural, and it is truth.
    The narrow road was not designed for the masses, but the wide road certainly was, and with all those twisted messages that fit it so well.
    Be Blessed, Gary

  122. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours.

    Steve

  123. foreverblessed says:

    The comment Jeff1 made a few days ago, that the chosen ones were not chosen as being the only ones, but for the sake of the “unchosen” ones.
    I believe we are called to bring many to salvation.
    It must be the same when you make a puzzle, you start at a point to make the puzzle. You have to start somewhere, it is not done all in once. Isn’t it the same as how God works in drawing all mankind to Him?

    In church we had a sermon on the feeding of the 5000,
    John 6:12
    “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted”
    When I read that, it struck me deep in the heart, and a meaning was added to it in my mind: That is how Jesus looks at mankind!

  124. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours.

    Steve

  125. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours.

    Steve

  126. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    Mart, your words of hope:

    “…the Father of heaven was watching. He loved Ishmael and his mother, and had a plan to bless their “unchosen” lives. Hearing their cries he assured them of his presence. He gave them a hope far beyond the wilderness that seemed ready to consume them.”

    The BBC story about Marco can be a source of hope for those among us who feel overwhelmed by circumstances and hardships.

    We have good reason to believe Jesus when he says, “…but for God all things are possible.”

    In Jesus we are delivered from evil.

    Maru

  127. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce I am speaking solely from the evidence written in the Bible. Each time God punished a nation or people, he sent a Prophet to tell them and to tell them why.

    He even used these same Prophets to tell of the future when He would once again exact His “justice” upon them; as in the events of the “Tribulation”.

    John the Baptist was the last Prophet, there will no others until the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation and they are thought to be Elijah and either Enoch or Moses, depending upon which theory you believe concerning these two men.

    Personally I believe any civilizations that have disappeared since the coming of Jesus Christ has either been as a result of their choices or the choices of other nations.

    The one nation of people who has not disappeared, even though evil people have tried to eradicate them, is the nation and people of Israel. And this is because God chose them for a special purpose and He will see them protected by His hand and the influence He has upon their allies until that time when they have no allies, and then only God will be their protector.

    I see that Minnesota’s weather is warming up, so is ours.

    Steve

  128. poohpity says:

    If prophesy ended with John the Baptist then how did the Apostle John write the book of Revelations? Also then why did Paul write that that would be one of the Gifts of the Spirit to minister to the church? (Romans 12:6 NIV; 1 Cor 12:10 NLT)

  129. SFDBWV says:

    Pooh I have never ever said that prophesy ended with John the Baptist, I have said that the era of Prophets did and still have until the two witnesses in Revelation. Who are thought to be OT Prophets.

    If you insist on criticizing my comments all the time at least be accurate in what you accuse me of.

    Steve

  130. poohpity says:

    Oh Steve I did not accuse you of anything. Where did you learn that John the Baptist was the last of the prophets? Is that accurate? Was not John the Apostle a Prophet and was not the Book of Revelation prophetic? Since when is asking questions criticizing? It should not upset you to back up what you are teaching I thought we are to be ready to give an answer to explain why we believe what we do. Is not prophecy what a prophet gives?

  131. joycemb says:

    Steve yes it’s so nice to have the warmer temps, although with little snow this winter we are all concerned for the farmers. After I wrote to you I remembered that seeing things through a biblical worldview explains things differently. As far as nations either self- destructing or being destroyed by others in the OT God did use other nations to destroy each other, but in the end had compassion on them all i.e.Nineveh for one. Hope your days of shoveling/plowing end soon!

    There is a famous tv psychologist who says “you can’t change what you don’t acknowledge”. The accusing aggressor on this blog is one such as this. Some are incapable of changing and only able to “parrot” what they have learned.
    Blessed day!
    Joyce

  132. joycemb says:

    Now I know why the blog was not posting comments yesterday, must have had a ‘bug’, but came back a bit confused! Glad it’s back.

  133. SFDBWV says:

    For any who need edification, Matthew 11:9 and Matthew 11:13 identify John as a Prophet and the last.

    Luke 7:27 states that John is the messenger told of that would prepare the way for the coming of Jesus. Malachi 3:1 identifies who John is as well as Malachi 4:5 and Malachi 4:6 clearly says unless he comes God will smite the earth with a curse.

    Make a study of the matter, read some others thoughts who have written books on the subject and it is very clear that John was the very last OT style Prophet until Tribulation comes.

    The purpose of the Prophets were and are to introduce the Messiah and once He came their purposes were done.

    The gift of prophesy to the church is not the same as a messenger sent from God to deliver a coming judgment upon a country or people. It is meant solely for the church.

    I hope this may help any who need help; as for me I know what I know by a long and exhausted study of the matter as well as peace concerning the issue.

    I see that all my attempts to post yesterday finally popped up, oh well.

    Steve

  134. street says:

    God still speaks. is anyone listening? many times i find myself in my own thoughts and completely in the dark. it’s not a good place to be at anytime. other times i find myself wrestling with God Word because my thoughts have a thing or two that needs to be addressed. i do thank Him for He persistence and faithfulness in not leaving there. i do know my thoughts are inferior to God. it’s when i trust,seek,and understand Him that life gets to be a real joy, not before. i think i read today He is the gate for the sheep, they will go in and out and find pasture. bread from heaven or if you will our daily bread. God bless you with His presents.

  135. jeff1 says:

    For those God has chosen he has set apart for the fulfilment of his plan and as you say Steve God choose Israel before time began to bring about that fulfilment. We are witnesses in the present age to that which was prophesied and is yet to be fulfilled.

    A PRAYER FOR PEACE

    Our Father, up in heaven,
    hear this fervent prayer:
    May the people of all nations
    be united in the care,
    For earth’s peace and man’s salvtion
    can come only by thy grace
    And not through bombs and missiles
    and our quest for outer space…
    For until all men recognise
    that “the battle is the Lord’s”
    And peace on earth cannot be won
    with strategy and swords,
    We will go on vainly fighting,
    as we have in ages past,
    Finding only empty victories
    and a peace that cannot last…
    But we’ve grown so rich and mighty
    and so arrogantly strong.
    We no longer ask in humbleness-
    “God, show us where we’re wrong”…
    We have come to trust completely
    in the power of man-made things,
    Unmindful of God’s mighty power
    and that He is “King of Kings”…
    We have turned our eyes away from Him
    to go our selfish way,
    And money, power and pleasure
    are the Gods we serve today…
    And the good green earth God gave us
    to peacefully enjoy,
    Through greed and fear and hatred
    we are seeking to destroy…
    Oh, Father, up in heaven,
    stir and wake our sleeping souls,
    Renew our faith and lift us up
    and give us higher goals,
    And grant us heavenly guidance
    as war threatens us again
    For, more than guided missiles,
    all the world needs guided men.

  136. joycemb says:

    Street said: i do know my thoughts are inferior to God. it’s when i trust,seek,and understand Him that life gets to be a real joy, not before.

    Life can be a real joy even when I don’t understand Him, which I find is more often than not. Trusting IS the key. He does all things well, in His own time.

  137. poohpity says:

    Jesus said my sheep(my chosen) will hear my voice and follow me but there will be those who come in seeking to destroy and lead astray with all kinds of false teaching similar to wolves in sheep’s clothing so beware and be on guard. Those wolves will be the ones who point people to themselves, their understanding, their thinking and not to God.(John 10:14, 27; Matt 7:15, 24:11; Romans 16:17; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1)

  138. street says:

    your right joycemb about understanding. the understanding is like what some one on here said a truth discover is greater than a truth learned. the discovery to me is His tender loving care in the midst of the wilderness experience. did i mention His sacrifice?

  139. joycemb says:

    Street I am so glad your are finding Him to be loving and caring in your wilderness experience. Some become angry and hostile in their wilderness experiences. But hopefully all will find peace eventually.

  140. joycemb says:

    Just a thought, where in scripture did Jesus tell His followers to confront people about their pride or other sins? Off the top of my head He just told them to preach the gospel. The work of the HS is to convict of any sin in ones life. And if they are confronted for grave sin, i.e. sexual sins going on in the church, they are to be banished from the church/group for a time until they come to repentance.

    Are we disciples, or little Christs?

  141. joycemb says:

    I too once was an abusive Christian that loved to share what I thought was love but turned out to be the ungodly ‘gift of criticism’, which I learned from my abusive upbringing. It takes a long time to shake the old off and embrace the New Life in Christ.

  142. street says:

    Psalm 119:165

  143. street says:

    Nahum 2:5

  144. street says:

    i like this translation better it made me dig deeper.

    He remembers his nobles; They stumble in their march, They hurry to her wall, And the mantelet is set up.

  145. street says:

    John 11:10

  146. street says:

    Matthew 21:43-45

  147. poohpity says:

    Steve, I always thought that Malachi was the last of the OT prophets and John the Baptist was the first of the New testament prophets. I am not speaking as an authority on it but rather as a student still learning and very open to correction.

  148. poohpity says:

    It would also seem that one of the jobs of any prophet was to point people to the Lord.

  149. poohpity says:

    Will that job ever be finished? Well unless it is until the day when the Lord comes for His church?

  150. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all… sorry for the three-peat I posted earlier, thinking my end was having the problem.
    Gosh,It’s never just about me…
    My sibling rival brother, (just kidding Steve) also got caught up in it.
    But, when I came to my sense, and noticed others were not posting either, I contacted ODB Ministries about it.
    Problem solved!
    Pooh… like I commented earlier,all the gifts given today, just like all the word of God, are valid and alive.
    Gary

  151. oneg2dblu says:

    Prayer request for my dear friend Laraine who lives in Gloucester Ma and has suffered from a fall. She tells my by email that she really injured herself and is now learning to walk again.
    I do not have any particulars to share other than, to share what we all being at one time as “Babies in the Lord ” needed to learn, how to walk as well.
    She needs the Lord to embrace her, To comfort her, To capture her, and to heal her.
    We all having been born again, needed to learn from Christ how to walk again.
    May it come to be His pleasure, and mine, that her hand reaches out for Him, for He is Willing to Heal every disease, all our brokenness and despair, and supply our every need, as He alone, will satisfy the Soul, the Heart, the Mind, of all who seek Him.
    Gary

  152. phpatato says:

    Joyce – there are abusive Christians and there are those who are just plain Christian busybodies. But then there are a few really special ones who are abusive Christian busybodies. They are the ones who have mean abusive comments on things that they simply have no business commenting on. I hope you stay around and aren’t really leaving!

    Gary I will remember your friend Laraine in prayer. Wishing her a speedy recovery in the hands of our Great Physician.

  153. oneg2dblu says:

    pat… thank you, and thanks to all the others who have already or will respond to that call. (the call to pray)
    “Pray First, Pray Right, Pray Often,” are the words on the bracelets our church has recently given us to wear as a reminder to all.
    Gary

  154. street says:

    been thinking of marco’s story and how it might parallel naomi’s story. we rejoiced in naomi’s story because we were given inside information. not so much with marco’s story. i look forward to meeting up with the naomi’s and the unfinished stories of the marco’s of the worlds. i suspect i will and it will be wonderful in my Fathers house. we were made to know.

  155. foreverblessed says:

    That event of our comments not being posted was very useful to me.
    It is like our prayers being kept together in a bowl, when they are poured out.
    It made me think of all my prayers, what would they look like when all put in line, one after the other?

    About the chosen and seemingly unchosen:
    In the treasury of David, I found some commentary about Psalm 19, as this Psalm is now in the lithurgy this week of the Protestant churches here in my country.
    Psalm 19:2 some comments were: in daylight, as is the time of Grace now, there a pouring out of the Gospel, like a well pouring out, or bubbling. But in the night time, the time of trouble or tribulation, it is a small whisper, that still can touch hearts. That people may come to their senses.
    So I was thinking: the chosen in daytime, the “unchosen” in nighttime.
    God does not want to destroy, He wants people to come to repentance.

  156. foreverblessed says:

    Street, you often asked about suffering:
    CH Spurgeon has said this about suffering:
    “Our afflictions are the health regimen of an infinitely wise Physician. He told his students,

    “I dare say the greatest earthly blessing that God can give to any of us is health, with the exception of sickness … If some men, that I know of could only be favoured with a month of rheumatism, it would, by God’s grace mellow them marvelously”.

    He meant this mainly for himself. Though he dreaded suffering and would willingly avoid it, he said,

    I am afraid that all the grace that I have got of my comfortable and easy times and happy hours, might almost lie on a penny. But the good that I have received from my sorrows, and pains, and griefs, is altogether incalculable … Affliction is the best bit of furniture in my house. It is the best book in a minister’s library.

    He saw three specific purposes of God in his struggle with depression. The first is that it functioned like the apostle Paul’s thorn to keep him humble lest he be lifted up in himself. He said the Lord’s work is summed up in these words:

    “‘Not by might nor by power but by my Spirit, saith the Lord.’ Instruments shall be used, but their intrinsic weakness shall be clearly manifested; there shall be no division of the glory, no diminishing of the honor due to the Great Worker … Those who are honoured of their Lord in public have usually to endure a secret chastening, or to carry a peculiar cross, lest by any means they exalt themselves, and fall into the snare of the devil”.

    The second purpose of God in his despondency was the unexpected power it gave to his ministry:

    “One Sabbath morning, I preached from the text, ‘My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken Me?’ and though I did not say so, yet I preached my own experience. I heard my own chains clank while I tried to preach to my fellow-prisoners in the dark; but I could not tell why I was brought into such an awful horror of darkness, for which I condemned myself. On the following Monday evening, a man came to see me who bore all the marks of despair upon his countenance. His hair seemed to stand up right, and his eyes were ready to start from their sockets. He said to me, after a little parleying, ‘I never before, in my life, heard any man speak who seemed to know my heart. Mine is a terrible case; but on Sunday morning you painted me to the life, and preached as if you had been inside my soul.’ By God’s grace I saved that man from suicide, and led him into gospel light and liberty; but I know I could not have done it if I had not myself been confined in the dungeon in which he lay. I tell you the story, brethren, because you sometimes may not understand your own experience, and the perfect people may condemn you for having it; but what know they of God’s servants? You and I have to suffer much for the sake of the people of our charge … You may be in Egyptian darkness, and you may wonder why such a horror chills your marrow; but you may be altogether in the pursuit of your calling, and be led of the Spirit to a position of sympathy with desponding minds”.

    The third design of his depression was what he called a prophetic signal for the future. This has given me much encouragement in my own situation.

    “This depression comes over me whenever the Lord is preparing a larger blessing for my ministry; the cloud is black before it breaks, and overshadows before it yields its deluge of mercy. Depression has now become to me as a prophet in rough clothing, a John the Baptist, heralding the nearer coming of my Lord’s richer benison”.

    I would say with Spurgeon that in the darkest hours it is the sovereign goodness of God that has given me the strength to go on—the granite promise that he rules over my circumstances and means it for good no matter what anyone else means.”
    By John Piper of the Bethlehem church of Minneapolis
    but maybe I cannot post it here, as it is someone else’s writing.

  157. street says:

    dear blessed, job was the healthiest man on earth, even in his greatest trial. job proved you could believe in God and trust Him in the most difficult circumstances. as the devil said for nothing. God won the bet and job got to see God face to face. God truly is the reward of those who seek Him.

  158. street says:

    14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

    “Cursed are you above all livestock
    and all wild animals!
    You will crawl on your belly
    and you will eat dust
    all the days of your life.

    these verses brought to remembrance this post.

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