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Give the Facts a Fighting Chance

On the way home from work last night, I saw this billboard on one of our busiest streets.  The prediction  has been showing up around the country. According to the sponsoring group,  judgment day, and the end of the world as we know it, comes on May 21, 2011.

Look close. The sign promises “The Bible Guarantees it.”

The sight reminded me of what I recently read about another small religious group that made their own prediction about the end of the world for December 21, 1954. At that time, some researchers from Stanford University infiltrated the group to try and observe what would happen when the prediction failed.

As the day approached and then passed, the researchers realized that this was their moment to observe how the group would explain their mistake and group embarrassment.

At first, the failure of the prophecy resulted in confusion. But then came the unexpected. The group received what they believed to be another message from their spiritual Source. This time they learned that, instead of a failure, they had actually, by their faithfulness, saved the world from judgment.

The result was that the group became more convinced than ever of the truth and value of their mission.

The point of Chris Mooney, the author, was to provide scientific evidence showing how our human capacity for self-deception works. It  began quoting the Stanford researcher who said, “A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources.  Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point of view.”

The article goes on to cover a lot of highly debated political issues. But it ended saying, “Paradoxically, you don’t lead with the facts in order to convince. You lead with the values (i.e. of the person you want to persuade)– so as to give the facts a fighting chance.”

Then I found another article, this one by David Brin,that followed up on the first. It added that there is only one solution for the self-deluding bent of human nature. Since we are so inclined to hear only what we want to hear when it comes to our deeply held convictions, the only answer is for an atmosphere of  reciprocal criticism. In other words, our critics can sometimes help us more than our friends. Yet, according to the second article, criticism is most likely to be heard when the conversation is civil rather than marked by threatening accusations and  characterizations.

So how does this mesh with the Bible’s counsel for conflict? Admittedly, we don’t need such science to prove that what the Bible says is true. But, at the very minimum, such articles might illustrate why  the Apostle Paul taught a young man named Timothy to confront dangerous false teachers with unexpected kindness, patience, gentleness,  and reason, rather than with intimidation.

Leaving Timothy in the city of Ephesus to confront false teachers, Paul told him, “The servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will” (2Tim 2:24-26a).

Interestingly, Paul had earlier used far stronger language in describing the dangers of false teaching in Ephesus. On one of the Apostle’s trips to Jerusalem, he asked the spiritual leaders of Ephesus to travel about 30 miles to meet him at the coastal city of Melitus. When they had come together with him, he warned them in some of his last words to them that the day would come when human  wolves, (dangerous false teachers), would rise up within the church to draw away people after themselves.

From a distance, Paul spoke in strong and general terms. Yet when it came to counseling Timothy who was living in Ephesus and dealing personally, face to face, with false teaching, Paul encouraged his understudy to act with great patience, grace, and kindness toward those who were in error, while trusting God to provide the change of mind and heart that was needed.

Seems to me that whether we’re discussing the issue of date-setting for Christ’s return or countless other issues of disagreement, Paul’s counsel to Timothy tells us something very important about how to deal with human nature.

When it comes to personal communication…to give the facts a fighting chance, we need to handle disagreements with truth and grace, as we rely upon the Spirit of God to change hearts that, in all of us, are prone to self-delude– when under attack.


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78 Responses to “Give the Facts a Fighting Chance”

  1. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… love those critters!
    That bill board shows both sincere intent, and sincere deception, placed in the arena of a Guarantee, that both does, and does not exist. One, the end is predicted,so that is true. But, the other, the actual date, we all know better! That is where deception uses the Promises of a Holy God, “slightly altered” to be believed only by the deceived people, for they lack His Knowledge, which clearly says, My parphase…No man knows the day or the hour. He will come like a thief in the night, at a time you will not know.
    How they can realistically arrive at a specific date, can only come about, if you “deny” part of God’s Word!
    They suffer from unbelief and disobedience, even though their fleshly hearts, tell them they are right!
    Billboards will not be required, to “usher in” that day!
    Gary

  2. SFDBWV says:

    I believe that the Proverbs warns us not to argue with a fool. I have certainly learned that there is little to be gained from such frustration except bad feelings and perhaps a new enemy.

    Somewhere in a discussion where conflict arises, either party has a choice to argue their point of view or allow the other to believe them to be correct.

    It would seem that in an instant of time we make that decision and the result most often unpleasant.

    I know people who thrive off of conflict, who bathe themselves in the atmosphere of strife and further it at their every opportunity.

    I try and avoid such people and conversation with them, as nothing I say will satisfy their apatite for arguing.

    A false teacher is exposed by the Word of God, the Word will cut like a two edged sword and in so doing create a division among people who refuse to be taught.

    In religious circles I know of no more of an uglier existence than that of the arguing of God’s children over who is more right than another.

    The result being that outsiders judge such action as hypocritical and turn them against belonging to any such group of people.

    The words of Paul written to different people at different times in order to drive home points to the various listeners can hardly be applied to his instruction in conflict with themselves.

    To Timothy he urges restraint at creating division and destroying the fellowship they are attempting to build, while at the same time standing firm on the truth of scripture.

    To the Ephesians he gives warning of future people who would pervert the Word of God.

    We would be well advised to take this warning to heart today, as there are packs of such wolves running unencumbered today.

    Our only defense, staying true to the Word of God.

    This is the point, that we listen to the facts another may present, but when there is conflict with the Word of God then we have our answer.

    We then can either continue to argue or shake the dust from off our feet and move on.

    When approached with such a situation, Jesus stated His position and then moved on with nothing more to say to the fool who would stand and argue their point all day.

    Dense fog this morning, 51 degrees, the birds fill the air with their morning songs.

    Steve

  3. florida7sun says:

    No one knows the Day of Judgment…

    “Why does the Almighty not set times for judgment? Why must those who know him look in vain for such days?” – Job 24:1

    “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” – John 3:16

    “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.” – Romans 2:5

    “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” – 2 Peter 3:9

    Yet, no one is guaranteed another day of life.

    “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.” – 2 Corinthians 7:10

    “And they cried out in a loud voice: ‘Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb’.” – Revelation 7:10

    Today is the day of salvation. In the light of His Cross and His promptings upon our heart, we are cautioned not to grieve the Holy Spirit and thereby bring judgment upon ourselves.

    Bobby Richardson, famed second baseman of the New York Yankees, has said that “everybody is somebody’s fool.” He goes on in declaring, “I am a fool for Christ.”

    I, too, am a fool for Christ, for there is no better team to play for and no better team to cheer on. The World Series has already been won!

    Warming up today into the lower 90s.

    Ray

  4. tracey5tgbtg says:

    I think this is a very good post. Ray – you are right, today is the day.

    Mart – I especially liked the quote from the article about how impossible it is to make someone even consider a different point of view when they have their mind made up. It’s easy to see that tendency in others, but, here’s the sting, how often do I notice it in myself?

    The question that occurs to me: When have I left my firm belief in God and moved into a firm belief in the rules taught by men? Isaiah 29:13

  5. peterpugliese says:

    Mart,
    You clearly stated a concept that we often ignore, ‘we must rely on the Holy Spirit to change hearts.’ How often when we encounter someone providing bad information do we enter into an argument for the purpose of making our stance known rather than for the purpose of getting the information right. As Jesus encountered opposition His purpose wasn’t to get His view accepted, it was about His obedience to the will of the Father. Sure His purpose was to bring truth to the table resulting in changed hearts, but in doing so His priorities were in the proper order. So, when we engage someone in conversation how do we approach it? Biblically we know what we know. Looking at your billboard we know the bible doesn’t guarantee date, day and time for the judgment. ‘A time is appointed for one to die and then the judgment.’ [Heb.9: 27] and ’…no one but the Father knows when the end will occur.’ [Mk 13: 32] These are assurances from God’s word, assurances we trust in. How do we communicate these in a way that demonstrates God’s sovereignty and not man’s inadequacy? No matter what; we have to allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate our thinking, and our speaking as we live out each day trusting in the revelation of Jesus Christ in us. I commend that by reading Rev. 1: 1-3 we will again know that the time is near, but not when it is to be. What’s important is; are we prepared for the end when the time arrives? For me the answer to this question changes my approach when it comes to how I dialogue with others who might see things differently.
    Pete

  6. bratimus says:

    So we have a litle under a month to go, phew, i was getting worried it might drag on for years.

  7. royalpalm says:

    Matt, thanks for this topic. I especially appreciate your last line, “When it comes to personal communication, to give the facts a fighting chance, we need to handle disagreements with truth and grace, as we rely upon the Spirit of God to change hearts that, in all of us, are prone to self-delude– when under attack.”

    Scriptures tell us that we have a job here – to tell the good news about God and His kingdom established by Jesus. We are God’s ambassadors and servants – representing Him, taking His message, and proclaiming it. Jesus had set us an example – with wisdom, humility and meekness (power under control) he confronted with the truth the religious and political leaders who were entrenched in their beliefs and ideas. We do not have to “fight” to win our case because the battle has already been won.

    As God has spoken through Micah 6:8
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good;
    And what does the LORD require of you
    But to do justly,
    To love mercy,
    And to walk humbly with your God?”

  8. poohpity says:

    Wow, what a great topic not only the topic but for all the examples you have given when replying to this very thing in “Whether “Love Wins”…or not” and other topics. I hope I can get this lesson down. It is hard work at first but it will be easier for me after much practice. I am even trying to practice this in my home. Then it was also in today’s ODB Proverbs 10:11-23.

    Can you imagine the response from people who have not yet accepted Christ to see as you said Mart, “we need to handle disagreements with truth and grace, as we rely upon the Spirit of God to change hearts that, in all of us, are prone to self-delude– when under attack.” I do not know about unbelievers but as a believer I would be amazed.

  9. SFDBWV says:

    It would seem that the omission of facts isn’t limited to the speakers and seekers of Christ.

    The USA Today newspaper is a prime example that all people are interested in are the headlines, no story or facts need get in the way.

    Reading today in Christianity Today Franklin Graham was attacked by the Whitehouse spokesmen for coming out on Easter Sunday to question Obama’s birth certificate.

    While upon further investigation, Franklin didn’t question it, he simply said that it was a problem that the President had to address. Also that the interview had been taped a week earlier and it was the decision of the broadcaster to air it on Easter Sunday.

    I heard the Whitehouse Press Secretary make the misleading comments about the matter but void of the facts.

    However it was the intent of the Whitehouse Press Secretary to give misleading information and affect the thinking of millions of people.

    It was Satan in the Garden that did not include the facts to Eve when he convinced Eve to go ahead and give in to her desires and it still is that same evil spirit in us all that causes us to jump to conclusions and go off half cocked without the wisdom of getting the facts straight.

    We all sat and heard President Clinton blatantly lie to us about whether or not he had sex with a 21 year old aide, but once you heard the rest of the story, the fact was, he had.

    No, Christians need not bear this failing of human nature alone. It is just simple intelligence and wisdom that cries out for us to use precaution before we make a decision on any matter by getting all the information we can.

    However there is something broken about people who receive gossip for fact then add to it to make it more exciting and pass it along. They enjoy finding fault with others and inwardly hoping they fail and fall on their face. I think you find their attitude in Galatians 5: 19, 20 and 21.

    Steve

  10. bratimus says:

    Wow, I’m hearing about Obama birth certificate in here just can’t get away from that headline.

    The birth cetificate issues is a political ploy, for political gain. For Obama to release it now it is just staging of politics. I remember back in the 2008 campaign John McCain birth status was question because he was born in the Panama Zone. With politics facts or part of the facts seem to be released as polls rise orr fall.

    Facts in Bible work to some interpetation of individual or group. Some facts when i comes to interpetation of prophecy might not even be in play yet.

    Religion and politics has one thing in common, they can be very corrupted or corruptable, because human nature is in both. Mixing politics and religion can be a dangerous brew.

    The thing about Prophecies is, you really don’t know it is prophecy until your living right in the middle of it.

    The one true fact I know is God is all Knowing and he can straighten out all the facts from the misinterpeted facts.

  11. SFDBWV says:

    Bratimus, is you user name Latin for Bad boy???Or you secretly IMUS?

    Just a little humor in the afternoon..

    What if you did know when the world would end, how do you suppose the world would react to you?

    Actually I do know when the end comes, it is all spelled out in detail from Genesis to Revelation, with added information in Revelation. Very few people will believe me either.

    Steve

  12. bratimus says:

    Bratimus is for trouble, it is what Ahab called Elijah

  13. bratimus says:

    Steve,

    I used Bratimus before i even heard of Don Imus, it came about one day when i was in Toys R Us and bounused around the store on one of those bounncy balls and a friend call me a brat, then i said Brat I’m Us. I was in my twenties when i did this. Then Bratimus kind of stuck with me. I have also played basketball in Wal-Mart also. My mom has called me a brat all my life, so the name works.

  14. injesusname says:

    As a student of prophecy, there are a few more things that have to fall into place before God is going to level the place. In the end days scoffers will come saying “where is the promise of His coming?” And it is reckless stunts like this that are fuelling a secular view of the truth! And subsequent denial of Christ Himself!! The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over each time expecting a different result! These people will never learn. Does it bug me? Oh ya because it reflects on all of us who love real truth. My rant for the day!! :) Blessings Dale

  15. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    The End will come when the last word is written on this blog.
    If this is the last word then He is here and I am gone.

    Bob

  16. Charis says:

    My classmates asked me about this end of the world prediction (knowing I am a Christian). I’ve heard too many “end of the world” predictions to even pay them any notice. And I don’t agree with the “Left Behind” eschatology. IMO Revelation is an “everyman” look at the battle that rages within- the battle between Christ and carnal man/beast.

    “And I saw. . . those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name” Rev. 15:2

    May we each have victory over the beast! This would solve the problem of corrupt communication.

  17. SFDBWV says:

    Bratimus, Now you see I have the facts surrounding your user name, no more mystery…It works for you it works for me.

    Charis, are you saying that you do not believe the literal interpetation of the book of Revelation?

    Steve

  18. injesusname says:

    Just for the record I am not saying nothing will happen on May 21st, because I don’t know, what bothers me are the need for some to set dates and think that this time they will be correct despite all the others who have and failed! Yet they continue to try. I met this group in Philadelphia last year and the person I spoke to handed me a flyer and said that someone had been pouring over the old testiment and that it was all there. I was not convinced and still am not. Judge the world? God already has! Read Revelation! No surprises there but this group claims that this fall the earth will be destroyed by fire. (if memory serves me correctly) The timeline doesn’t fit with anything I have read and understand. All the money spent on advirtising a deception; could have been spent on feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, something more constructive than what they are doing. And Bob if this is the last word and He is here, the Bible says you will be here with Him.

    Blessings Dale

  19. bratimus says:

    I think that when it comes to the Prophecies of Revelation, that God will surprise many from what they think they mean and the way God’s will plays out. Many have used the Revelation of Christ, to make movies, and books and doing this many forget the warning of Revelation 22:!8-19 about adding and taken away.

    Jesus tels us to be watchful of the signs of the end, i never heard Jesus say perdict the end of times.

    Like the four horse horses of Revelation 6 people refere to this as the 4 horse men. but there are five things mentioned hades rides with or behind death Revelation 6:8 …”and Hades followed with him” (NKJV)

    So that sound like 5 horse men

  20. Charis says:

    Steve,

    :)
    What is “the literal interpretation of the the book of Revelation”?

    I don’t have time to dialogue on it, but if by “literal interpretation” you mean “Left Behind”, then no, I don’t agree with that eschatology. My eschatology was heavily influenced by my five years as a member of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod which takes an Amillennial stand, understanding the book of Revelation as highly symbolic.

    My understanding within that framework has grown as I have studied the book. I understand it as a Revelation which applies to every person. Every person has an internal battle between antichrist/beast and Christ.

    John, who wrote the book of Revelation, said that there were “many antichrists” contemporary with him. What is your “literal interpretation” of 1 John 2:18,22 and 1 John 4:3?

  21. poohpity says:

    This topic reminded me of what Peter went through with all the apostles and other brothers in Judea who started out with arguments and criticism until Peter gave all the facts and they then began praising God. Acts:11:1-18 There were also several times in the OT when someone was accused of something and almost killed until all the facts came to light.

  22. bratimus says:

    Well Poohpity at least ur comment post name didn’t come under attack, starting to think need to put on a flake jacket before i comment.

  23. xrgarza says:

    I’ve been seeing those same billboards around Northern California, what surprises me most is that this organization has been around for years teaching biblical truths and is widely respected around the world.

    How does this happen? When I was a kid I remember my mother listening to their programming all day long, on occasion they even had a young aspiring preacher who later became known worldwide, we all know what happened to Jim Jones.

    Is it possible that this organization is just under abnormal attack from the enemy himself? The bible says that in those days that even the most elect could be deceived.

    Rocky

  24. poohpity says:

    bratimus, when I first started posting on here about 4 years ago my handle also received some scrutiny. It was the name of a Great Dane I had. I hope you do not think I was attacking you in any way. I think if we could meet each other in person and listen to the manor in which we speak we could hear each voice in the writing which would bring a little more understanding. :-) The comment I just made had to do with the current topic not the comments.

    I think that so much talk about future events which Jesus even said it is not something we need to know because not even Jesus knows the times but it does take our focus off of the here and now and looking at things we can change in ourselves like how we respond to someone who we may disagree with.

  25. bratimus says:

    No Pohpity i didn’t think u were attacking me. i was just trying to comment to lighten the mood. i don’t let to many things bother me.

    I grow up with 3 brothers and metiphoricly speaking we ate r wounded.

    i’m pretty toughed skinned,and sometimes I’ll throw a little wit in my comments.

  26. florida7sun says:

    Seeing CBS on the billboard I googled “Judgment Day May 21, 2011” and came up with 12,100,000 results. It would not surprise me if TIME magazine has another cover story in the making.

    As TIME is always published in the year of our Lord, I have always thought that Jesus should be voted “Man of the Year” each and every year. At least, He should be named among the “100 Most Influential.”

    Just my opinion.

  27. davec says:

    I can’t help to comment as this was a good discussion..
    2012 is also near, a lot of people are also talking abt this..

    One good question always comes into my mind: What good would it bring if somebody would really know when the real judgement days comes??

    I think it would bring much more bad things than good things, even If I would be happier that Christ would come in that exact date.

    I think for common logic – the Bible would not want to represent itself as a doomsday prophetic book, but rather a TOOL OF HOPE for the coming dark days ahead.

    I don’t think that God wanted to predict that his beloved creation would be put in ruins in the end days..

    But rather he wanted us to prepare and be aware that there is HOPE in everything that is happening around us during this end times..

    after all, I think I realized if you analyze the destruction we are facing in the end times – it’s not God who is causing all this trouble but man himself…

  28. Dinakar says:

    Just a small note to let you folks know this is not confined to North America alone bills and posters of this particular advertisement are available in Chennai, India as well.

    I can’t see judgement day before the tribulation and to go as far as advertising this reveals a lot of money power behind the move.

  29. SFDBWV says:

    Bratimus, I hope you didn’t think I was attacking you for asking you about your user name, we most all get ask about our names at one time or another as we try to be more personal with each other. I was just trying to add a little humor into our conversations.

    I too was ask and the answer is not as much fun as yours or as cleaver as others just simple. SFD are my initials and BWV the town and state which I live. I need to make such things simple for me so as not to forget them when needed to recall.

    I did look into bratimus being what Ahab called Elijah and could not find it written in my English speaking Bible. However I did find where Ahab said to Elijah “Art thou he that troublest Israel?” 1 Kings 18: 17.

    Enough about your name, just wanted to make certain your feelings weren’t hurt or that I may have overstepped my bounds.

    Steve

  30. BruceC says:

    Just for everyone’s info. David Wilkerson; who I believe founded Teen Challenge and authored “The Cross and the Switchblade”; went home with the Lord yesterday.

    As far as the topic is concerned; this is not a new thing. Some groups have told of the End way back in time. I just trust my Lord with it all. While it is true that He told us what the signs would be before He came; we do not know when. So let us be busy living for Him. Groups like this bring the unbelievers to laughing at the church when their “predictions” fail. Years ago while young in Christ I attended a church where the pastor preached that he knew the year of His return. Well I didn’t stay there long and the year has come and gone. I oft wondered if this harmed some of the attendees walk with the Lord?

    With the weather the way it has been my wife has been worried as we have had several tornado warnings. But it didn’t come to pass. I just told her to relax as everything is in His hands. Maybe these “predictors” should do the same.

    Pray for those affected by all these severe storms in our land!

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  31. SFDBWV says:

    Charis, Dear sister you are so right we certainly have not the space nor time to fully expose the fullness of the book of Revelation here. I admit I am lacking in the doctrine of the Lutheran church. I would also agree that there is a great deal of symbolism used in the book, but I do believe that the events and people are as real as any others named in scripture.

    Daniel exposes the beast in his prophesies concerning this time in the events of man as well as details of the tribulation.

    If these are not literal people times and events of a future time, what would be the Holy Spirit’s purpose of writing them as if they were?

    I have no problem in agreeing with or understanding the writings of 1 John 2 and 4. The spirit of the anti-Christ has been around since the foundation of the world. The very fact that spoken here the fact that any one who denies that Jesus is the Christ is an anti-christ agrees with the fact that there is an anti-christ. This Beast spoken of in Daniel as well as referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24, is indwelt by Satan and so becomes the embodiment of the anti-christ.

    So I am clear, by literal I mean that the people events and times written in Revelation are as real as the people times and events written from Genesis through Revelation. Real people real events that actually took place, and so far as yet unfulfilled prophesy is concerned, will take place by actual real individuals and peoples.

    I believe there are numbered 144,000 Jews set aside for salvation and a remnant for God’s purpose just as explained in Revelation. I believe that there are 1/3 of all mankind killed during the tribulation period and I believe it to be 3 and ½ years long. The Tribulation beibg the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year reign of the Anti- christ.

    I too have studied and continue the study of eschatology, the only influence being what I read in scripture and am given conformation by way of the Holy Spirit in many ways.

    If by “left Behind” you refer to the books written by Tim LaHaye, I have not read the books, but am familiar with them. If by left behind you refer to not believing in a rapture, then once again I disagree and once again there is little space left here to elaborate.

    I do hope our differences are not upsetting, but rather as Mart is trying to express an opportunity to expose the facts of our beliefs and leave nothing to conjecture.

    Steve

  32. SFDBWV says:

    Bruce, I agree clearly that we all need to pray and do whatever else we can for those affected by last nights storms in the south.

    Watching video and reading stories this morning of some 184 people killed and thousands of homes and businesses destroyed.

    Loved the video and story of the mother and her two daughters who climbed into a tanning bed huddled and prayed together as the building they were in was destroyed. Good thinking mom.

    But reading of such destruction and death is sad.

    We had thunderstorms and tornado warnings here as well, but these mountains can protect us sometimes from the forces that create tornados, not that they can’t occur, just very rare. Almost 9 inches of rain so far for April, I don’t know if that is a record or not but very unusual for us.

    Steve

  33. oneg2dblu says:

    What’s in a name anyhow? LOL
    Even though you may not care, mine comes about
    because my intials are GWW.
    Or, it could stand for… God Works Wonders!
    Sometimes the apple doesn’t fall to far from the tree!The gravity of that is… once the fall takes place…the worms get them! So, if your an apple… HANG ON! :)

  34. poohpity says:

    I was also baptized and confirmed into LCMS it is my ancestors church of choice. Did not stay long enough to know what their teaching is on the future since I was an Easter or Christmas attender except in my youth then went every week. As a child I loved learning about the Lord. It must be the German background, lol.

    When I think about The Revelation I see imagery because the things that were shown to John he had never seen before and tried to relate them to things in his day so he could explain them. I just fully believe that it is all in God’s hands. Whether we are here, raptured or already with Christ my hope is in Him.

  35. poohpity says:

    I guess that the LCMS were good seed planters. :-)

  36. oneg2dblu says:

    I just took “another look” at the billboard, it does not say what Year, so they may have left themselves an out.
    Just like all believers who have very, very, strong doctirnal differences but also claim, the old, old story, of Jesus and His Glory, Jesus and His Love!
    On that we can all agree!
    Call yourself any denominational name you wish, claim any doctrine you feel you must, just stay Centered in Christ Jeusus and leave the Consequences to Him! GWW

  37. poohpity says:

    :-) Amen to that!!!!!

  38. bratimus says:

    Someone mention how could Judgment day come before the tribulations.

    Here is a thought, the trick here is to put my tought in to words.

    One of the biggest lies the world has ever know is the devil has got people not to believe “it” exists. The devils goal isn’t to best God or become God, but to take away from God what God loves most. One way to do this is not to believe in God or know God.

    So if the devil conceals its existence to people, wouldn’t the devil also try to conceal the time of sorrows and the tribulations also.

    The time of sorrows and the tribulations would go to the truth of God since they where written so long ago.

    From the beginning of time God procliamed that man and the devil would be at war.

    Genesis 3:15 “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head , and you shall bruise his heel.”

    One of the best tools of war is subterfuge, so it would be in the devils best intertest to mislead people to the signs of the times and cover things up, until the day that God lets the evil one be revealed.

    2 Thessalonians 2 speak to this line of thought.

    War is a dirty and tricky business, so be watchful and not so easily decieved

  39. nezzar says:

    First to the topic at hand. I know (because I’ve seen it happen) when false teachings are expressed and someone believes that false teaching they loose faith when the falseness of that teaching is exposed. I feel that I must admit that at one time I was the one that was teaching falsely and feel responsable for damaging someone else’s faith. I have also prophesied falsely and seen the damage that nearly caused. Since then I have vowed only to pass on what I know to be the word of God. If I am not convinced that something is true from the word of God then I will not spread it. I will not be the one through whom an offense comes. Rightly dividing the word of truth!

    I can’t help but become angry when I see falsehood being taught. Anyone else remember the Y2K end of the world senario. As I recall it was a lot of “Christian” radio that spread fear of the end of the world. After Y2K came and went the “Christian” radio never said anything about it again, as if they had forgotten it was supposed to be the end of the world and they also forgot that they spread fear instead of assurance based on the finished work of Jesus. How many people learned that the Church was a bunch of nuts, and God and His Bible were just another fable on 1 Jan 2000? Every time someone tries to make a buck on the end times and that end doesn’t happen it’s harder for those of us who uphold the truth to convince anyone of God’s grace and goodness. After all he is just another fable like the end of the world at 12:01am 1Jan2000.

    Secondly, and please tell me if I’m wrong, but I think I heard someone talk about their high position in a denominational organization to give weight to their argument about doctrine. Doctrines are truths taught by the Church that are only true if supported by scripture. The Bible is the only and final authority of all truth in the christian faith, not an organization of man. If you can’t back up what you say with chapter and verse don’t say it because it is not true, and no amount of DR. degrees or Pressadents of denominations will make it so.

    Thirdly, I think that we in the church must take a stand for the truth. I’ve been in a church that had every wind of doctrine in it because the Pastor would not correct his congrigation. That was a good place for me for a time, but eventually became poisonous to my faith. And I’m sure we’ve all heard the stories of churches that split over a word. Both new churches split and became so embittered toward the other that they poisoned the whole community not only to them, but to church and God in general.

    It’s odd that I’m in the middle of a word study on “truth” right now, and I’m finding numerous references that combine truth and mercy, truth and loving kindness. I think we need to be able to come to one another in truth with love. And humbly submit our Ideas to each other with a teachable attitude. In other words, when we discuss issues like this one need to come with an attitude of discovering truth not establishing truth.

    Fourthly, Bratimus I always look forward to reading your posts and now that I understand the name I think its cool. Poohpity I’m glad you explained your name because I was wondering and was just afraid to ask.

    Lastly I would like to say that my name came from a Babylonian King, witch is only part true. Back in the day I named a charicter in D&D that because it sounded cool, and it has just stuck ever since.

  40. nezzar says:

    One other thing before I forget.

    When I first started reading the Gospels I thought Jesus was bi-poler. One moment He’s saying “Let he who is without sin through the first stone.” and the next He’s saying “You are a lier like your father the devil.” He seemed to be very gentle with some and harsh with others. So I started to look for why this was. He was gentle with the woman at the well because she appoched Him accepting her sin. The pharasses however where self rightious and the only way to get through to them was with a verbal slap to the face. Jesus was not always a “nice guy”, but He was what was needed by those He came into contact with.

  41. poohpity says:

    Afraid of me? lol The whole name was pooh pity sing from the lips of a two year old saying poor pretty thing.

  42. poohpity says:

    Pat, how is your husband doing?

  43. bratimus says:

    nezzar,

    People that say verses in the Bible controdict, dont put themselves in the scene that is taking place and who is there who is being spoken to. Jesus spoke to the sinners and His disciples one way and He spoke to the holders of the law a different way. There was a whole lot of different characters that Jesus spoke to. If you understand who Jesus was talking to and understand what type of people they were. The words of what were spoken are easier to understand. If any of what i write is understandable.

    And for everyones information by real name is Christopher, since names matter so much lately lol and a rose called by any other name is still a rose

  44. oneg2dblu says:

    nezzar… you’ve hit a very needed point, that if Christ changed His methods, according to the situation and those involved, then, we being those who strive to be more Christ-like, should also.
    There is a time for “turning the cheek,” and a time for overturning the tables, “confrontation!”
    The real wisdom is to use the proper technique, at the proper time and place.
    So, saying “do not judge others,” is not always the correct answer to all situations.
    His Discernment, when properperly applied, could evoke different responses for different people and situations!
    As you say, everything must also align with scripture as well! Gary

  45. bratimus says:

    Gary,

    Jesus is the word, and we are made through Him for Him.
    Now all the laws that the Pharisees and scribes held to are from the word which is Jesus. Jesus came to straighten out the law of the Bible since so many used the law for there persdonal benefit.

    For Christians to get into conflicts over the words of the Bible or false teachings is not the wise course of action. Sometimes it is best to brush the dust off our feet as we walk away from false teachings and take our peace with us.

    the devils purpose for false teachings is to try to make conflicts and division. It is easy to make a false teacher do to human nature and the need to form religion around society.

    We all have that human nuture in us, that is the old man we have to fight off so we don’t return to our old ways.

    Jesus was all God natured, that is why Christ will judge.

    Human nature loves conflict or confrontation, vanity and pride.

    As Christians we are suppose to show the love of Christ, even to our enemies, which i will admit isn’t always the easiest thing to do

  46. Regina says:

    …wondering what was so special about the 21st day of the month?

    Sunny and warm in Texas today.

  47. Regina says:

    One more thought… That billboard totally contradicts what Jesus told us. He said no man knows the day or the hour of His 2nd coming… only God (the Father) knows when He will return.

  48. Regina says:

    correction: Wondering what *is* so special about the 21st of the month. May 21, 2011 is a future date.

  49. florida7sun says:

    Hi Regina:

    Like many false prophets they seek worldly recognition and monetary enrichment through publicity in the sale of their proclamations. Harold Camping, who is behind Judgment Day, has profited through his pronouncements and marketing prowess. He has stated the world was created in 11013 B.C. and the flood took place in 4990 B.C. The “Judgment Day” he now advertises is one of several he has promoted over the years.

    There are many false teachers in the world and in the church today. I think of the Pharisees, who loved money (Luke 16:14). They were also blinded from the truth of God’s Word. False teachers love to puff themselves up and have something to sell. They love to hear the accolades of the crowd. It would not surprise me if the Pharisees received a commission on every blemished animal sold to be sacrificed.

    False teachers abound and are bolstered through their handlers and publicity agents.

    Jesus gave all He had… freely. His focus was on doing His Father’s Will not in self-promotion. Only His Father knows the Day of Judgment, and I believe Jesus is pleading for all to come to a saving knowledge of His love, grace and mercy.

    As His Spirit moves upon hearts, false teachers (and the demonic influence behind them) are quick to snatch people away from His Way, Truth and Life.

    “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.” – 1 Timothy 6:10

    Partly cloudy today. Temperature in the high 80s.

    Ray

  50. oneg2dblu says:

    bratimus… I’m never found to be truly at a place of peace when surronded by false teachings. That may take some more growth on God’s, part of me that lacks such, as you come from another veiw, than I currently do not have.
    It makes my ears burn, my heart sad, and my feet itch to run, when falsehoods are preached by those who are professed to be soooo godly. The deceived, should be at peace, with false teaching, for they do not know any better, but the Discerning?
    Sorry, but I fall into the “hate evil” category, and false teaching to me, is EVIL!
    I also though I remove myself, find that God can even use bad, to bring about His good.
    He could even use a “brat” like you! LOL
    That was given in love, and I’m still laughing! :)
    Heard some really hard spoken words today over the world’s television networks, the words Jesus Christ Our Lord were freely spoken, and that stuff is very seldom heard coming out of Our President’s Whitehouse! I believe we will suffer for it being denied as part of every televised speach Our President makes, but, we are getting closer to elections again, so maybe there will be a change!
    I can only pray, and I do…”Lord please change our country in Jesus name,one President at a time. Amen!”

  51. oneg2dblu says:

    Or, telivised speech, oops! :(

  52. oneg2dblu says:

    bratimus… I usually read the ODB message first, but today, as every day, God Provides.
    Job 38:2 “who is this that obscures my plans with words
    (on a billboard) without knowledge.”
    It is always man, trying to make himself the authority!
    Gary

  53. bratimus says:

    Gary,

    I was just remembering what Jesus said to the disciples when He sent them out. Coming to a town and if they accept you your peace be with them and stay at one place. And if they don’t accept you leave and brush the dust off your feet and take your peace with you. And Jesus says that town will be worst off then Sodomn.

    I’m not trying to preach to you, i’m not a preacher or a teacher. My mind goes more to the warnings of the Bible. If it is to be that Jesus destrys a false teaching or 2 that isn’t my concern because the warning from a watchman has went out, the trumpet has sounded.

    i just don’t want to see a brother fall into a temptation that might lead into sin.

    Most false teachers want a confrontation, the conflict that is how they get noticed, and get their preemmence.

  54. nezzar says:

    Bratimus

    You are right to not get involved in arguments over words (ie. is it divine grace or divine provedance?)

    1Ti 6:3-5 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness,
    (4)he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
    (5)useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a [means of] gain. From such withdraw yourself.

    this is I believe what you are talking about and in some cases you are right however

    Jude 1:3
    Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

    I think some issues are worth contending for: like the issue above. No the world will not end may 21 there I did it. So when do we know when to walk away and when to confront. Ultimatly it is by the leading of the holy spirit, but since we are in a fallen state we have to use the bible as a guide as best we can. the folowing verse may help.

    Titus 3:9
    But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

    If winning the argument would bring no one any closer to God than its useless, but if there is something that takes people further from the Lord than we need to confront it. As always love needs to be our guide. Is walking away going to allow someone to be lied to in a harmful way? Or is it just going to cause more strife?

  55. bratimus says:

    nezzar,

    When it comes to false teachers Look to what Matthew 18:6-7 say

    6) “But whoever causesne of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a mill-stone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depths of the sea.”

    7) “Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offenses come!

    Then down in verse ten we hear that humans aren’t the only ones in the good fight for the truth of the word.

    10) “Take heed that you do not despise on of these little ones, for I say to you that in Heaven “Their” angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

    Why we have to put up with this false teachings and offenses i go back to Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43 so in confrontation we might trample some wheat as we take on some tares (or thistles as some versions say)

  56. bratimus says:

    A trampling of a little one(wheat) to take out a tare is no gain for Heaven. I most assured that that one little wheat holds more value then all the tares(thistles) in the world.

  57. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Well!!

    I saw something today that has changed me forever.
    Two people in their late twenties that committed themselves in marraige and what a beautiful thing it was.
    They, along with their families, chose the service and the hymns.
    Jesus Christ was venarated and lifted high.
    An estimated 2 billion people watched it live.
    I am not boasting here, but sometimes even this old corrupted country that many in the USA have rejected gets something right.
    I was struck by how many USA citezens were there along the prossesional route.
    God Bless America, but God save the Queen.

    Change of subject, but even I am proud to be British sometimes.

    Bob

    When the Queen entered the Abbey the trumpets sounded, just think when Jesus enters Jerusalem. wow!!

    Bye the way, Westminster Abbey is over 1000 years old and has the highest gothic nave in Britain.
    Built by the Saxons and then taken over by the Norman Kings.
    It forms one of the most strongest ellements that holds England, not so much the other three countries, together as a nation.

  58. oneg2dblu says:

    bratimus… Yes you are right! I never thought about False Teachers welcoming the battle. But, it does make total sense. Thank you!
    They do “look for” contesting points, and are always causing their believers to doubt. So, in that respect, I do get your point. Well taken, Brother!
    Satan’s greatest hour was to just get us believing that maybe what I thought I heard, or read, was wrong!
    Or, there really is some Error in the Word of God. What God really meant to say was ….

  59. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob in Cornwall… it was a beautiful thing to know the World was Witnessing a Christ Centered Wedding!
    It really blessed me, to hear Our Saviour’s name Exhalted, as England’s Royalty shows how it lights its way in this Darkened World!
    What an Awesome Testimony for Marriage, done God’s Way!
    Gary

  60. poohpity says:

    Satan just loves it when Christians battle each other over the simplest of things which we may not even have the answers to, just hunches. He loves it when our peace and unity is divided.

    Ooohh Bob, I lost sleep last night watching the Royals wedding. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen and the ceremony that the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge chose was over the top. The whole ceremony watched by millions around the world lifted up the name of Jesus. They looked like they were so much in love more than the other two I watched. IT WAS GREAT!!! They both seem to be very humble people with the good of many at heart. They will make a wonderful King and Queen when their time comes such a bright future for England.

  61. oneg2dblu says:

    It is a great comfort to know that, the False Teachers,
    or the weeds, will be gathered up at the harvest and burned. In that “Day of Judgment,” God’s Justice, and not man’s… will prevail.
    Perhaps, our burden is to watch it go on, while we wait for the Harvest, we must live among them who deceive.
    That is the Testing of our Faith, that we do not Battle the Enemy on his terms, but on God’s!
    Lesson Learned! Praise God!

  62. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Thanks Gary, I value your comments

    And thanks Deb!

    It shocked me to see and hear The Name of Jesus lifted up so high to the world.
    Yet our monachy is such a mix of personal and intermit relationship between people and state and also there is that legacy of Princes Dianna.
    We have always said, we have an hereditory presedent and you have an elected monarch.

    Let’s hope Mart changes the subject before I wonder too far off topic.

    Bob

  63. poohpity says:

    Those who search for the truth will find it. :-) The battle belongs to the Lord!!!

  64. poohpity says:

    I guess that is why the bible teaches us to pray for our leaders and encourage them. When it all comes down to it they are all just people with a different station and job to do in life.

  65. poohpity says:

    Bob we have one TV station here that has done nothing but show all week the history of the Royals and their weddings and backgrounds on TLC. I have been watching it all and thought about you several times.

  66. poohpity says:

    I was thinking if a human being can think of something so grand for a royal wedding what will it be like for us the bride of Christ when we are finally united with Him.

  67. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Just what I was thinking Deb when I watched the ceremony.

    Also twice the marraige of Christ and His Church was mentioned during the service.

    My mouth just dropped open, gobb smacked, as we say here!

  68. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Ray, thank you for the info you provided on false prophets/teachers. Was wondering why the 21st of the month was chosen twice.

    Bob, I’m excited for you and your countrymen! :) I think Prince William and Princess Katherine (or Catherine) will be a great King & Queen for Great Britian when their time comes.

    Sunny, warm and windy in Texas today (High 84 degrees).

  69. nezzar says:

    Sorry but I must go against the grain on two points:

    One: I was bored by what little of the royal wedding I saw. Happy that Jesus was exalted but bored.

    Two: I stand on my previous statement that we must contend for the faith. I agree that we should not get involved in arguments about words (divine grace vs. divine providence).

    Oh wait I’ve changed my mind, next time I hear some one teaching that Jesus did not rise in the flesh but just a spirit body I’ll just let that one pass. Or if some one teaches that the devil is Jesus’ brother I’ll just say halleluya. Deny the trinity you go brother. In fact you don’t have to be a christian to be saved or call on the name Jesus. There is no hell so it doesn’t matter what you believe.

    I’ve also decided that if I see some one in a burning building I’m not going in there to pull them out, just let them burn. If Im in a boat and someone is drowning I wont throw them a rope I’ll just let them drown. With no Hell they are just going to a better place anyway.

  70. poohpity says:

    nezzar, well it would seem that those who have a romantic side are the one’s who would find joy in the Royal wedding and then there are those who don’t.

    As far as coming against false teaching one has a choice there as well. We can either take a passive stance and say nothing or an aggressive stance and beat someone up with our words but there is also another way to approach false teaching and that is with respect, love and humility. There again we have the choice. I wonder which one would win people to Christ and which ones would cause dissension and division.

  71. nezzar says:

    poohpity,

    If we walk away and say nothing every time a false teacher leads people to himself we will end up with a church full of every wind of doctrine and the devil will be able to make us leave a place by sending a false teacher to spew his falsehood. Approaching false teachers with love and humility is the point I’ve been trying to make the whole time. Sometimes however the only words that will be heard are the harsh ones.

    Thank you very much for your responce.

  72. poohpity says:

    I think that stresses the point of people reading the bible more so they will know the difference in the facts presented to them. I have tried many ways to confront false teachers but then I realized who am I to do it because those who really want to find the truth will. God knows those who are seeking and it will be God who reveals the truth and facts to them. I have enjoyed reading your posts.

  73. nezzar says:

    I agree with you in that when people ask, seek, and knock they will find the truth, but what about the new Christian or the weaker brother. It may be that God has Chosen to work through you to bring that bit of knowlege to that weaker brother who has been praying about that issue and now a false teacher is teaching him falsely. You may not win the false teacher back to the truth, but you may save that weaker brother.

    As to who are you to make a correction You are a Christian covered by the blood and seated in the heavenly places with Christ Jesus. You in and of yourself are unworthy, but Jesus is your sufficiantcy. Humility is not thinking that you are not worthy to make a correction.

    Humility is a proper perspective of who you are in Christ!

    If you have a lot of knowlege on the subject at hand then ask questions perhaps you need correction, just don’t allow anyone to contradict the verses you know. If you only know one verse and perhaps don’t understand it properly then also ask questions. It may be that though the false teacher is not persuaded the weaker brother is. Also YOU may be the method that God has chosen to reveal that truth that someone else has been praying about. Of course we must always be prepared to be the one who is corrected it may be that our understanding is in error.

    Just to be clear the weaker brother is just weaker in one area not nessessarilly benneeth anyone or less than just not strong in that area.

  74. poohpity says:

    Not that I felt unworthy but I know that when and if someone is in error and they are not in the word it is like spitting into the wind. Correcting people does not take into consideration where they are in their walk with the Lord and the way a person learns is different for every individual. I have found it is better when someone asks rather than going around correcting and they learn better and I do not sound like a know it all because I do not.

  75. nezzar says:

    Sorry if what I said made you feel like I was accusing you of being a know it all. I kind of went from talking to you to talking in general without making that clear. I also don’t want you or anyone else to think that I bounce around like a pinball correcting people all day. Most of the time I let things that I feel are a little inacurate go because they are not important enough to tare down fellowship over. Most of the time when I think something is important I ask to make sure I understand their position first, then I ask myself and the Lord if perhaps I am wrong. Only when I’m sure that I’m right and the other person is wrong and the issue is important, do I interject. And I certainly did not mean to insult or put you down. so once again I am sorry if I did.

  76. poohpity says:

    nezzar I did not take it that way at all. :-) We certainly have to pick and chose the battles we take on because they may not be ours in the first place. I think that right and wrong thinking can put us in a prideful position then it would seem we are looking out and around instead of up. :-)

  77. nezzar says:

    I agree lets look up and speak the truth in love as God leads us.

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