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One Reason Bible Readers Disagree

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Our last conversation about “sharing our faith” is one that deserves a second look. It’s another example of how followers of Christ can both agree and disagree about just about everything.

We agree that everyone needs to hear what Christ did for us. We differ, to some degree, about how we are each to respond to that need.

It is also an example of how differently we can read the Bible. We can read it as if it was written directly to us. Or we can read the Bible as if it was written for us. The difference is behind many of the disagreements that are dividing the Body of Christ.

How do the two words of “to” or “for” make a difference in the matter of “sharing our faith”?

If we believe The Great Commission was written to us, individually, then it seems to follow that we are personally being told by our Lord to “make disciples of all nations”. More specifically, if The Great Commission was written to us, then our Lord is saying to us individually and personally: “Go…and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20).

If, on the other hand, The Great Commission was spoken to Jesus’ eleven disciplesfor the Church (Body of Christ) in every generation, then we have a different challenge.  Then the challenge is to discover how the love, wisdom, and desire of Christ (1Cor 13: 4-7) can be expressed through us (1Peter 4:7-11).

If the Great Commission was spoken to us personally, we have an impossible rule that leaves us all with overwhelming feelings of false guilt and defeat. If it was spoken for us, then it becomes the mission that gives meaning and purpose to our lives—as the truth of the Gospel calls out our love for others, as expressed by our willingness to use whatever we have been given for The Cause and Love of our Savior.


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64 Responses to “One Reason Bible Readers Disagree”

  1. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… are you saying if it is written to us, we were there, alive, in His presence? But,if for us… that would be for the world-wide church today, and not to be taken as a freshly given personal commandment?
    I do not see it as a, to us, or for us choice, but both!
    “If you love me… you will follow my commands.”
    Gary

  2. SFDBWV says:

    Matthew 28: 19 is one of the verses of scripture I use to point Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons to the Holy Trinity. Their edict and doctrines do not accept Jesus as being an equal in the God Head. Thinking only from a human understanding they can not accept that Jesus the Christ is in fact God. I also use John 1: 1 to make my case, there are more, but these two do well enough for this conversation.

    The great commission is both to us and for us, as there are among us those who do go into the mission field and those among us who help sponsor them, together doing the will of Christ.

    Witness to everyone you can, brag about Christ, support ministries and outreach programs do whatever it is you are led to do, not what you think you should be doing and you can have peace…get *you* out of the way and quit trying to be more than God has equipped you to be.

    Hot in the mountains, I already long for the cool days of fall…

    Steve

  3. bratimus says:

    The Bible was wrtten for Him(Jesus),

    And because of Him and through Him it is for us, to us, and for them.

  4. Toml5169 says:

    Interesting thoughts Mart. I can think of many times I have heard teachers talk about this subject as it pertains to the Bible. We need to understand who the writer was delivering the message to, why he was writing etc. The early church even struggled with the question of was Jesus intended for everyone or Jews only and if everyone how much OT law applied to NT living. Take for instance the OT; it was not written directly to us and yet without it could we fully understand the beauty of Christ and His place in the trinity? Not to mention the Holy Spirit and His function in our lives. The issue of “to us” or “for us” has created much division on that topic alone. Interesting to this conversation is an OT passage on the naming of Judah found in Genesis 29:35 is what God used to lead me out of severe legalism. In that case I knew it was to me and for me.
    Just returned Monday from our daughter’s wedding in Maryland and it is nice to be back in our community here. Cool here in Portland Oregon

  5. Mart De Haan says:

    oneg2dblu,

    Yes, I am saying that each part of the God-breathed Scriptures (OT and NT) comes to us in a form that reveals its own times, hearers, issues, and culture.

    In that respect, I’m asking all of us to consider the thought that, even though the Bible is, without question, God’s priceless gift to us, all of it was written to someone else.

    Our challenge then is to find how words written to another time, place, and people reveal the heart of God– while giving us a mirror of our own fallen, brokenness.

    Our challenge is also to find the timeless truth (in i.e. the form of knowledge, principles, and wisdom), and the motive of love that is at the heart of its Story, laws, proverbs, predictions, poetry etc. (Gal 5:14)

    In addition our challenge is to find how all of its truth and grace (i.e all of its rescuing elements) are fulfilled in Christ (Matt 5:17)

    Rather than making the Bible a less personal gift to us– it actually makes the Bible more personal… because when read in this way it does not leave us encumbered with customs and laws that do not appropriately reflect the truth and grace of Christ in our own times.

    Rather than complicating and confusing our minds with the culture and circumstances of another time and place, this approach helps us find timeless principles of truth and grace.

  6. InHisHands says:

    Hi all of you at BTA. I have been thinking about and praying for all of you. Have enjoyed reading all the comments over the last couple of topics and you have all spoken so well on them that I couldn’t think of anything to add.

    I do want to thank you Pooh and Steve for the ‘rat’ suggestions. We have 6 cats (my highest allergy trigger, but God is so good) but can not let them out because of coyotes here in the desert. Cats are one of their favorite meals. We did dig up on of the bushes closest to the house, praying to keep them outside, at least, and my hubby has made use of his BB gun.

    I was blessed with a wise pastor who impressed on us that we all have a function to perform in the ‘body’ of Christ and that when we are allowing the Holy Spirit to guide our lives and listening to the opportunities sent by the Father, we will function properly and timely. Paul reminds us that some are sent to sow, some to water, and some to reap – I figure I am a sower and waterer (encourager), but once in a while during my turn to serve at ‘altar call’ I get to pray with one who wants to accept Christ – and, if I read Paul’s message right all get the blessing of that saved soul.

    There is much we are not to know about on this side of Heaven and one of those items may be the *who* we have influenced for eternity. So, in agreement with what many of you have said, as long as we keep Christ on the ‘throne of our heart’ and live as He has instructed us to – He will work on the hearts of those who observe us and cause the desire for change that is needed to bring about salvation.

    Have a blessed day – it is the first official ‘no school day’ for summer, and I am so happy to be at home. It is only 70 outside now, but expect it to get HOT later.

  7. florida7sun says:

    The Word is the Word to us and for us. The Word is in us.

    His light shines wherever the Word resides. It cannot be hid: in Jerusalem (the bodily temple where His Holy Spirit resides in all believers); in Judea (the neighborhood where believers dwell); in Samaria (those adjoining areas where believers travel); and to the ends of the earth (wherever God’s calling on our lives as bond-slaves takes us in obedience to His Will).

    The fruit of His Spirit is displayed through His love wherever the Word is present.

    We no longer live. As John the Baptist said, “The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease.”

    The Lord is light. The Lord is love. Light shines. Love radiates.

    Light and love transforms us and others over time to bring honor and glory to our Lord and Savior.

    We have received the gift of faith from Our Father to share the Good News of His Precious Son wherever we are: in our home; throughout our community; across borders and to the very ends of the earth.

    The beauty of “Our Daily Bread” and Mart’s ministry is to share the Lord’s nourishment to all who hunger and thirst. Presented with love, asking nothing in return, we are drawn to the wellspring of life.

    Peace and grace to all, Ray

  8. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… We all love that you give us these things to consider, they grow us, they help open us up to other trains of thought, that not being here, and being involved, and contributing would be a loss for all.
    We’re all blessed every day, for the exhaustive studies and work you have already done, and the work that others have done and share here. What makes the bible personal to me, is the knowledge that the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me,a so when I encounter the Word every day, I find it to be Alive! Gary

  9. poohpity says:

    To me both the OT and the NT are for us to learn about God and how He dealt with those who gave their testimonies as tangible proof how God worked in their lives. While reading this God inspired book I learn how many before me experienced their life knowing, trusting, believing and depending on the God of all creation for wisdom, love, mercy and grace. It also reveals to me the state of my human condition.

    I often wonder that those who speak the loudest and the noisiest have ever really read the bible all the way through if they had they would understand it takes years of reading and studying to gain all that it has to offer and they would humbly began to realize they do not know all that they think they know.

    All each of us have is our testimony about how God has worked and is working in our lives realizing that any change that happens is because they are open to allowing the Spirit to work in them. Shouting that although everything about them deserves the death penalty they have received a pardon.

    I read the bible with the thought in mind how can this be applied to my life today not how can I apply this to anyone else. What is it you want me to learn today Father and thank you for the death of Jesus that I can now have a personal relationship with you. Teach me about you, help me to hear your voice, lead me to a desire to want more of you and help me to love as you have loved me.

  10. disciple7 says:

    Great posts here, I agree with others that the Great Commission was written both for us and to us.

    A couple of pastors have told the story of being out at some festival of some kind. They saw some guys off in the distance that were wildly waving their arms and shouting towards them, but they couldn’t hear what they were saying. As they got closer, they heard what these guys were so excited about. “There’s free beer over there!” they explained, not realizing they were talking to pastors.

    You see, it’s human nature to share something that we find value in. They thought they had knowledge of something valuable. How much more valuable is the knowlege of the way to eternal life?

  11. oneg2dblu says:

    Hi all… I just got off the phone with my doc from the V.A. were I had some blood work done, and was put on meds for urinary infection, he told me my blood work looked like crap, and wants me back on Tuesday for additional blood work and consult. Also, if I break a fever over the weekend, I am to check into the ER, because my PSA count is way up, and he said things could get messy quickly, and if you were 70 years old I would say you have cancer. Well, my being 68 doesn’t leave much wiggle room. So, please pray that Tuesday’s report will have better numbers. :)
    I know I will. I lost my Dad to prostate cancer, and my oldest brother has survived his bout. Who knows, I may be the next one on the list. Gary
    Pooh… what a tragedy to see all that burning out your
    way, lets pray they get it under containment soon! :(

  12. florida7sun says:

    Be at peace Gary. The Lord is with you. I’ll be in prayer for better test results on Tuesday and a good word from your doctor.

    God bless you, Ray

  13. branch says:

    In the Bible as in John 17:8 Jesus seems to be talking TO the disciples only; however, his words are intended FOR all people in all generations just as if they were written for each one of us only yesterday. Also, I consider myself guilty of not always paying attention as when the disciples fell asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane.

  14. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    We had a great word at our Thursday evening meeting in our little Barn Fellowship this week.
    Basically it was about how Jesus defined Himself by Using only Scripture.
    Luke 4:
    When tempted by satan He responded with Scripture.
    In the Synagogue He read from Isaiah and claimed the word for Himself.
    The whole Bible was written for Jesus and to Jesus. He knew who He was because Scripture told Him and defined Him.
    We are to be like Him and Scripture defines who we are and what we are to do.
    Jesus was often feeling low and tired but He used Scripture to know the truth of who He was, just as we should be transformed by the renewing of our minds in Christ.
    The Word of God may have been written by others for others in a different age but it is what defines us as sons of God.
    So when things get tough and you are feeling down remember what and who God says you are and act upon it.

    Bob

  15. peacedove says:

    What seems to be a simple post topic,turns out to be quite a challenge to respond to.What I am certain of is that when one reads the Bible with God in your heart,it is totally different than without his presence.
    We are supposed to set an example for non-believers.
    All the divisions are not helping spread the word.
    Every day there is a natural disaster,new war starting…
    How much more time is the Lord going to give us to get the job done?

  16. royalpalm says:

    Hello, everyone,

    Great topic Mart…makes me think also…First, Poohpity, I am sorry if I have misread you… I hope you realize that your time at home is a blessing to us who read your posts- for your faith encourages us. I pray for you as well as Ray and those who shared their concerns in BTA…

    I believe that the Bible’s message is for us and to us. God chose to reveal Himself through the Scriptures because He wants everyone to know Him (Jeremiah 9:23,24) so our greatest motivation in reading it is to know God’s character, what He did and will do, what pleases and displeases Him, and His expectations.

    Though the last book was written 2000 yrs. ago to people who lived at different times and different places, God is eternal and He does not change. What He expected of the people 2000 yrs.or 3600 yrs. ago is the same as what He expects of us today. So when we read about God talking to the Israelites in Mt. Sinai, “You shall not commit adultery,” to show His holy character and expectation from the people He saved from their bondage – we too, who have been freed from the bondage of sin, should realize that God also have the same expectations from us.

    In the same way, the great commission, spoken to the first believers by Jesus, reflects His righteous desire that everyone should hear and learn about the Good News of His salvation. If we love the Lord, we want to do what PLEASES Him – and ALL His commands including the Great Commission will be our pleasure to obey.

    Perhaps we are confused about the command itself – In Luke 8:38, 39 we read about the demon possessed man cured by Jesus wanting to go with Him but was told, “39 “Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you.” And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.”

    This is what the great commission is like- telling others what God has done in our lives. When we do, we are helping others see the reality of what God can do in their lives as well. Every time we tell of God’s goodness and demonstrate that goodness we are pointing them to the Lord, helping them become His disciples.

  17. florida7sun says:

    Thank you all for wonderful posts praising His Name.

    The Word is truth. All of it is the embodiment of our Lord and Savior. Truth has led the way in guiding His beloved creation. He is Sovereign, and we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses that herald His majesty and cheer us on to completion in Him.

    We are not alone. There is agony in running the race of life. There is pain. Yet, He is sufficient and inspires us to be like Him; for light and love are the elements of truth and the foundation of life eternal.

    He exists in us and for us. His radiance shines through us. Every breath we take is a gift from Him to use for His honor and glory.

    We run and rest in Him. Every mention of His Name quickens our hearts as we see the beauty and wonder of all He indwells. He is the fountain of life, and every word of His Word brings refreshment.

    Open the Word. Its very center is Psalm 118:8 – “It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.”

    Take any page, any jot or tittle, slice it with a knife or scissor and it will bleed the Blood of Jesus.

    Our Father’s love for us took Him to Calvary, His Love for us nailed Him to a cross of our making, and His Holy Spirit’s love for us brings illumination to our hearts.

    Through the power of His Word our love for Jesus grows day-by-day. It cannot be contained but is ever growing.

    His nature is truth. He is the foundation of all that is worthy and good. He is life itself.

  18. remarutho says:

    florida7sun writes:

    “We run and rest in Him. Every mention of His Name quickens our hearts as we see the beauty and wonder of all He indwells. He is the fountain of life, and every word of His Word brings refreshment.”

    Thank-you for this expression of “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col 1:27)! Matthew 28:19-20 is spoken in the plural (go, make disciples). It is for “all y’all.” It is a gentle command to be one of the disciples — to enter the story — there on the mountain with Jesus. As I hear him give this last word in the gospel of Matthew, I hope to live in it. The Great Commandment is for me as I take my place in his body, the church. If the end-times are pressing, it seems to me Christ’s call still comes in the context of the long ages: “He that believes shall not make haste.” My witness, our witness, is all that we think or do.

  19. nezzar says:

    oneg2dblu

    I will pray for you and hope that you continue in good health.

  20. SFDBWV says:

    I am not schooled in seminary nor have I taken college courses in archeology or the academic study of scripture writings either the ancient writings of the Hebrew Torah or the letters that comprise the “New Testament”. All I have is my Bible, my faith and Christ.

    When I read any of the Bible I consider it written to me, for my enlightenment and to lead me into a fellowship with God and acceptance of Jesus of Nazareth to be Christ.

    I must sadly disagree that the Bible is written to Christ, but rather is written of Him. Psalm 40: 7 states clearly that the volume of the book is written of the Messiah, and Hebrews 10: 7 confirms it.

    If one considers that the sifting of all scripture is for our better understanding of God and His will for us, then good, go forward and sift every “jot and tittle”. However if we sift through every word looking for division and disagreement, we are on the wrong road of discovery. Our journey will lead us to confusion and into a dark and unhappy place in our spirits.

    Believe what God says, don’t play semantics with His written Word, constantly straining for a way to twist what He has said into something that you feel comfortable hearing.

    My prayers for all of us to be led into the Light of His Word…Psalm 119: 105

    Steve

  21. poohpity says:

    John 1:1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

    Bible Readers disagree because they are not filled with the Word they are filled with words. If it were more than just words our focus would be on the Lord and allowing Him to express Himself through us.

  22. dja says:

    Amen, Steve and Pooh.

    Recently, I decided (with my husbands blessing) to opt out of Sunday School. The reason is that I have a hard time with people disecting verses and debating over them. I love God’s Word and just want to delight in it, not argue over it. Although my husband has to be there (he’s an elder and sometimes teaches), I sit in the car and read quietly and prepare myself for worship. I no longer feel tense before worship. I’m thankful that I have a husband who understands.

    Gary, I am praying for you. My husband had surgery last year for prostrate cancer (he was 66 then). It had grown considerably, but they got it all out and his recent blood work showed wonderful numbers. We are so thankful. May the Lord draw near to you as you have additional tests.

    Thunder storms early this morning in NEPA. It’s overcast now and a bit cooler. Looks like more rain, but “This is the day the Lord has made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.”
    ~Della

  23. tracey5tgbtg says:

    I believe that God has gifted us all differently and calls us to further His kingdom in different ways. We can’t all do the same things or even say the same things or speak in the same style. And I don’t believe God wants us to.

    1 Cor 12:27 – 1 Cor 13:13 talks about gifts and how, without love, they are useless.

    I have heard people try to force their beliefs on others and they only end up antagonizing them. I have also been around people whose love for Christ just naturally spills out in their conversation and their actions and they are a joy to be around. Mainly because their love for Christ carries over to a love for the person they are talking to.

    Somewhere, someone mentioned Matt 7:21-23. To me, those verses have always said that Jesus knows the difference between those who are going through the motions and putting on a show of religion and those who really “know Him” and “love Him.”

    Hebrews 4:12 says the Word of God is living and active. If we read the Bible prayerfully, asking the Holy Spirit to speak to us, we can be convicted of different things from the same passages, because God is ABLE to use His word to tell every individual the message He has for them.

  24. oneg2dblu says:

    Thank you all for your prayers. It is a comfort to know that others are there, who will use their prayer words
    and bring blessings for someone else, that cost them nothing but words, and are valued through His love of one another. You all have blessed me! :)

  25. oneg2dblu says:

    Christ knows the heart of every believer. Some are hot, some are cold, and some are lukewarm. It is the lukewarm, the ones with all those phony words, and religious rituals, who think that their many words and practices, bring them closer to Him. They now of him for they are always reading about him, but they know him not, for He knows their heart, and it is deceived.
    He said, he will spit them out of his mouth!

  26. InHisHands says:

    May the LORD bless and keep you, and give you the peace that comes from knowing He is the ‘great physician’ and is in control. I pray your numbers come back where they should be. We went through that scare with my hubby and he was only 58 – but by God’s grace his surgery and follow up proved no cancer and his numbers have been good every since. I am truly blessed by your comments and encouragement.

    Thank you all for the insights – it seems as though we are all in agreement that the Bible is the *living* Word of God and so is relavent to all time and ages. I am often pulled back to Solomon’s words, “there is nothing new under the sun”. All we see in our society, all the questions we ask, all the answers we come up with, all these things have gone on before and will go on when we pass; should the LORD tarry. I praise GOD for His constancy and that He has shown Himself as THE ANSWER to all generations.

  27. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart & Friends —

    Your concluding paragraph begins: “If the Great Commission was spoken to us personally, we have an impossible rule that leaves us all with overwhelming feelings of false guilt and defeat.” This statement allows for the truth that no one is up to the gospel task on his/her own.

    I need the body of Christ — to laugh with me in my joys and cry with me in my sorrows. In the church, I am inspired and strengthened to take risks in mission and outreach. As Uncle Red Green says, “We’re all in this together. Remember I’m pullin’ for ya.” May we all discern the truth of the body of Christ. No solo-flight, kamekazi Christians!

  28. davids says:

    I don’t think that a peaceful and respectful discussion among believers about what the Bible means is unhealthy, or needs to be a cause of discension. After all, isn’t that why we are readinng Mart’s blog? If our only intent is to evangelize to one another, then it hardly seems fruitful.

    Mart’s topic was intriguing, but I decided to mull it over a bit. RoyalPalm’s post helped bring it into focus.

    While there are many laws in Leviticus that Christian still apply, there are many that Christians do not feel bound by, even though they have not been specifically suspended in the New Testament. Therefore the Old Testament was not written to us, but rather for us to understand God’s holy will toward an ancient, tribal people.

    Even in the New Testament, there are things that were written to the people of that time, but which we treat as written for our understanding. How many would insist today that a woman should not have her hair braided? (1 Tim 2:9)

    So it seems that almost all of us on some level treat the Word as having been written for us, rather than to us.

    Gary, you are in my daily prayers. Please keep us updated.

  29. oneg2dblu says:

    InHisHands… that is where we all long to be, In His Hands! Yes, He is the Great Physician. Thanks for sharing that good news about your hubby. :)

  30. oneg2dblu says:

    davids… thanks for your prayers. I do agree that the Word is written for us. But for many reasons, one of which is to show us, Who God is, and who we are in relation to Him! If we are in Relationship with Him, we are His Possession!
    The Word is all about the human condition, and about our history, and our future. It shows us the cost, and the freedom, of knowing Him, and the cost, and the cursed result, of not knowing Him as well. In His Son, through His Son, and by the Power of the Word of God, do we Fear, Worship, Honor and Obey, this Living Word and it’s author, Our Almighty God. Gary

  31. florida7sun says:

    The Body of Christ can never be divided. The Word is the fullness of God in every respect. The Word created all things by Him and through Him.

    Love does not create division. It heals. It unites. It glorifies.

    However, those called by Him as children of God can and do create division, for we are not complete in Him. He is the potter. We are the clay. Much work needs to be done.

    As with Job’s understanding, we cannot fathom the full majesty of Almighty God in our fallen state. The advice given by his friends (Eliphaz,, Bildad, and Zophar) does not comfort nor satisfy. It is lacking.

    Moment by moment, we are being transformed into our Savior’s likeness through application of His Word; along the path and through the pain He has prescribed for us, individually.

    It is a beautiful process to be in submission to our Lord and Savior. In His Hands we receive our daily bread. His Word speaks to us. The beauty of His creation is incomprehensible through this dark glass we peer through. Yet, our desire for Him longs for greater understanding.

    His love is a deeply personal one.

    Today is the day He has made. Let us rejoice in His presence.

    Grace and peace to all, Ray

  32. peacedove says:

    This posting could be turned into a college course almost.I have spent quite a bit of time re-reading the posts/scripture excerpts.Earlier this morning I had read Acts 2.The Holy Spirit added 3000 believers that day.
    I am with you DJA.If staying in the car enables you to allow you to prepare for worship properly,then bless you.
    The goalie for the Vancouver Canucks just reciently surrendered 12 goals in 2 games.Before the latest game he went on a long solo walk along the Vancouver harbor sea wall.In that nights game he allowed no goals and his team won 1-0.
    “Windows on Easter,” the book reciently offered from RBC is great for making the link between antient times and today.It opened many doors for me to understanding how customs in Jesus day relate our world.He has written a book on Christmas as well.Somehow,I will get my hands on that one as well.I recommend it to everyone here.
    Thank you Mart De Haan for challenging us to open our minds and keep on Gods road.

  33. poohpity says:

    I think at times we forget that it is in the hands of the Master that people are changed, transformed, taught and most of all loved. The bible is written so that we can see that fact, “It is the Master who does it all”. It is written FOR us to learn that God IS.

    The things written in the bible are to certain peoples, about certain peoples, autobiographies, biographies, songs, history, wisdom, genealogies and tangible evidence of God and his dealing with His creation.

    I think we disagree because we talk “to” others not “for” their benefit. Sometimes parents talk to their children rather than allowing the freedom to think and reason on their own for their ability to grow and learn. Sort of like it is my way or the highway that is “to”. To, seems to demand while “for” seems to prompt a desire to expereince.

  34. poohpity says:

    Whether it is “to” or “for” God wants us to know Him and trust Him to provide and care for us as only God can with a love that is far above anything we can imagine. We will never get it perfect but we know when we see Him there will be no need to have faith anymore and all our hopes will be realized and the only thing that we will carry from this life to the next is LOVE. It is here and it will be in heaven our eternal home. So speaking only to myself how am I going “to” show love “for” others.

  35. annalisa says:

    Greetings to you Brothers & Sisters in Christ: Though I haven’t commented in awhile I’ve been following (sometimes I feel inadequate to comment, child like or superficial- so I say nothing) most of you are so knowledgeable of scripture & I only have an opinion on what the Holy Spirit guides me.

    Basically I just wanted to say Hello- I’m still reading along with you all & still am very grateful for all of your comments (usually burning with lovely passion for our Lord) Thank You for your words, continue to Be Blessed & sharing the Blessings.

    I found this topic to be moving. All I can say is it is a Living thing; the Bible to me. I believe it was written (both) to us & for us just as it was for those living in OT times & NT times. The Word develops & grows with greater meaning each day for me- its why I read & reread repeatedly.

    Even though times, customs & technology change/ evolve with the day & age we live in, it fundamentally remains the same at the core of the condition of the human spirit. For example: I take the saying give unto Caesar what is Caesars- to mean today (because of course we are not under Roman Rule) to mean- follow the Laws of where we live, wear your seat belts, pay the IRS :), not buy illegal knock-offs (cd’s movies, handbags) and obey governing bodies even when in disagreement. Although…there are times the Bible, God’s Word and the Spirit tell me otherwise, in those instances I anticipate having to take a stand as a child of God.

    You have really poured out pearls in your posts & I thank you again. Gary, I’ll remember a special petitions for your health.

  36. Regina says:

    Good Evening All

    Hope all is well in your lives. Mart, the last sentence of your intro comment, “If it was spoken for us, then it becomes the mission that gives meaning and purpose to our lives—as the truth of the Gospel calls out our love for others, as expressed by our willingness to use whatever we have been given for The Cause and Love of our Savior.”

    brought to mind a song, titled, “I Give Myself Away” (William McDowell)that we sing at my church. I’ve included the Youtube address (www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ofQmeao9I), and I hope that’s ok.

    Sunny and warm in Texas today (90 degrees right now).

    Love to all,
    Regina

  37. xrgarza says:

    Mart,

    When I was younger I can remember memorizing verses, it was more of a ritual. When I was in high school, I think only the KJV bible was the only one everyone used. When I was introduced to the NIV it was as if my eyes were opened and I could understand what had been written.

    But it wasn’t until I was 30 y/o after not seeing my children for almost 6 years they came to live with me. I realized then that I had no values or principles that I consistently lived by that I could teach my children what it meant to be a Garza.

    I can still remember seeing my children jumping on their bed one night and I was going to spank them out of impulse simply because I was spanked when I jumped on my bed.
    I then asked myself “what’s the wrong in jumping on the bed?”

    So as I began this journey to develop my family value plan I realized that it would take a lifetime to complete, it was simply overwhelming. About that time I was learning how to be more disciplined in reading my Bible, when I realized that the bible was a gold mine of values and principles that were already established and proven. So I in essence decided to plagiarize those values for my own personal use.

    Long story short, I took the Bible even though it was written thousands of years ago to a culture so much different than ours yet with an with an intent to reach us all, it was so much more than simply the beginning and the end and the life of Jesus, it was as if principles and values were jumping off the pages.

    It was amazing, don’t get me wrong, today even though I have never been to Bible College, I have a pretty good understanding of the literal message of the Bible but I believe that with the help of the Holy Spirit I have been able to find these nuggets that have been so powerful and valuable.

    Here is one example: Jesus washing the apostle’s feet:

    In our homes growing up most of us heard “I’m the parent, you’re the child, you do as I say not as I do” similarly Jesus could have said “I’m the king of kings, you wash my feet”

    Knowing that Jesus was trying to teach the apostles about servant hood, I took this example and applied it literately to my family value package. I wanted to teach my children how to respond positively to discipline, the first thought I had was whenever I would be disciplined they would see how I respond to discipline. Then I realized that I was the head of the house, who would discipline me? So like Jesus I made a level playing field and allowed my children to discipline me. Heck what did I have to lose? You won’t believe how many times I found myself on time out, could not talk on the phone, watch TV, or visit with friends, I had to sit in my room and write sentences. Today six grandkids later, I realized that I not only taught my children to receive discipline I taught them how to administer it, when it comes to my grandchildren I rarely have to get involved, my kids are doing a much better job raising their children than I ever did.

    So was the Bible written to us or for us? Yes I would say both.

    Love you all, sorry for being so long winded

    Rocky

  38. cherielyn says:

    To keep it simple: The Bible was written TO and FOR anyone who will hear and follow Christ! It is also a book of history: HIS STORY!

    Gary, you are in my prayers for your appt tomorrow. It is annoying to have tests come out “normal” and yet the problem still exists. I go through a lot of that with my son. I pray that your doctors will quickly get to the bottom of whatever medical issue is going on.

    Annalisa, thanks for your input and please never feel that you have nothing valuable to contribute. Just express yourself as the Lord leads. You never know when your contribution will be just what another person needs.

    Good posts, everyone. You’re all in my prayers, even though I haven’t named each one & the circumstances afflicting you at the time.

  39. oneg2dblu says:

    May the Lord bless all those who he has led here.
    Her’s a word for whomever relates to it, it is to you, and for you.
    Because we are led within our spirit, to post a word to a particular situation or person, and it is not taken well by them… that rejected response, is not our fault, as we posted in love, with the understanding we have been given, led by the spirit that gives us the words.
    So, annalisa, I agree with cherielyn, we should not let our feelings prevent us from sharing that special word, that can come only from the directed spirit within us.
    we are all at different points in our walk with the Lord.
    But, no matter where we are, we need to express our love for Him, and express are given words for others.
    Some will read those very with relish, and others with a different veiw point then our intented purpose.
    We leave that to the one who guides us in all things,
    Our Lord And Saviour, Jesus Christ. AI give all Praise, Honnor, and Glory, to Him who directs our paths. Gary

  40. oneg2dblu says:

    For all typo’s and misspelings, and possible misunderstandings do to those, I take full resposiblity, as I failed to proofread it, before posting. :)

  41. florida7sun says:

    Thank you, Cherielyn. It truly is HIS STORY!

    This morning my daughter shared with me Michael Hyatt’s post on his blog today, which deals with “Project Management and Herding Cats.”

    I had to laugh, for the Lord through time has sought to feed and bless wayward people who act like cats in many respects.

    We hiss and scratch. He bears the scars and so do we. We cough up fur balls after preening ourselves, and spit at those who invade our territory.

    Yet, the Savior loves us with an abiding love. Through His Word and by His Spirit, He is rounding up His Church so that we can purr forever in His perfect presence.

    Blessings to all on this beautiful Monday, Ray

  42. oneg2dblu says:

    I hope you all enjoy my sense of humor. :)
    Those of us who seemingly proofread the Bible… I wonder why we are constantly looking for those faults in God’s Word. His word is always perfect, but man’s ever searching for errors, is questionalbe at best.
    I’m glad He knows the heart and intentions of all our actions, and I’m so very glad, He forgives us, as we present ourselves before Him, asking with a contrite and loving heart. :)

  43. cherielyn says:

    I am guilty of proofreading and looking for faults in the Bible – that is the NWT (New World Translation) that the Jehovah’s Witnesses use. They are not consistent and I have found many instances where they overlooked making a change in one verse, but had made the change in another similar verse elsewhere. It is helpful to point out those discrepancies to a JW who has been coming to my door, off and on, for about 10 years now. I don’t point them out in a confrontational way, but rather ask an inquisitve “innocent” question, i.e. “Why does it say this in this verse when it says this over here.” She never is able to give me an answer, always stating that she will “find out” and let me know. I’m surprised that I haven’t scared her away by now. Perhaps my “innocent” questions are causing her to dig more deeply for the answers and perhaps, in time, she will have enough of her own questions to realize the error of her beliefs and come to faith in Christ. It is all in God’s timing and His plan for her life if or when she will recognize the truth and come to Him.

  44. oneg2dblu says:

    cherielyn… you heart is in the right place, when you search the word to empower its meaning against other religious beliefs. Even those that use most of the Word of God unchanged, must change it up for thier belief system to be decptively used against those will not, or choose not to dilligently search , or contend for the one true faith. Not a form of the word as a religion, but our Faith in Christ Jesus, as Our Lord, and Our God! The relationship they have, is all within thier words, while our relationship, is with our Lord Jesus Christ, and His Living Word! Gary

  45. joy4 says:

    “To and for us.” Thank you for showing us both perspectives in order to grow in Christ each supported passages are relevant. Love the beautiful picture. joy4

  46. oneg2dblu says:

    My pastor tells us to share with them, love them, and invite them to our church. I relish their dilligent efforts at spreading the word, and I always pray for them, defending on what I know best, to be about my Jesus. I always tell them, they bless me because they take me out of the world for a moment, to discuss God’s Word.
    I do proofread their literature as well, and find its discrepancies are revealed through the Discerning of the Holy Spirit that helps me to read it, and protects me from its deception. :)

  47. poohpity says:

    If I come to realize that all of what the law says and what the prophets said was fulfilled in Christ and my part is to love others as God loved me then God’s word would be used not to point out the flaws in anothers thinking or their behaviors but to allow it to reflect the flaws in my thinking and behaviors.

    I do not feel I have the right to apply scripture to anyone else. I owe my life to the Lord and when I daily spend time in the word I have often erroneously applied it to others then I miss what the Word has for me. It is like listening to a sermon and saying I wish so and so were here to hear this it would really help them when it would be nice for me to say what is it you want me to take form this word today to apply to my life.

    Several times in scripture it says God wants us to know Him, that is more important than any sacrifice or anything else in the world. I think that is the primary reason we have the bible for us to get to know God not to prove others wrong.(Hosea 6:3,6; Micah 6:6-8; Matthew 9:13; Matthew 12:7)

  48. poohpity says:

    I need to cling and trust in God’s word and promises that if anyone, anyone who truly is seeking God He will reveal Himself to them.

  49. JCW says:

    well friends does this scripture clarify or complicate?

    2 Timothy 3:15-17

    15 You have known the Holy Scriptures ever since you were a little child. They are able to teach you how to be saved by believing in Christ Jesus.

    16 God has breathed life into all of Scripture. It is useful for teaching us what is true. It is useful for correcting our mistakes. It is useful for making our lives whole again. It is useful for training us to do what is right. 17 By using Scripture, a man of God can be completely prepared to do every good thing. (NIRV)

  50. poohpity says:

    What I love about that scripture is the personal application of it while some use it to apply to others. We are taught in Psalms 119:105 Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.

  51. florida7sun says:

    Hi JCW. I believe it clarifies.

    Whenever I am in the presence of another believer my soul rejoices. Words do not have to be spoken. There is understanding and unity in the One we hold dear.

    A verse I love is in Romans 1: “…since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

    Everywhere we look, God is there. We cannot see Him with our physical eyes, nor can we hear Him with our physical ears. He is perceived through a heart that loves Him.

    The world has a menu of choices that cry, “Indulge in me! Be satisfied.” However, as Helen Keller said, “What I am looking for is not out there, it is in me.”

    The Lord Jesus formed us in our mother’s womb.

    When we come to Calvary stripped of all that ensnares us, we comprehend that the Word is all we truly have and all we truly need. It builds us up. It guides our path.

    “I AM” is life; abundant life now and forevermore. He provides our daily bread and gives us living water.

    When we cast aside His love for us and go our own way, there are consequences we bring on ourselves. So it is with those who preceded us. So it is in our world today.

    “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.” – Leviticus 17:11

  52. poohpity says:

    As a footnote written in my bible regarding the misuse of scripture by satan to prove his point in Matthew 4. It says “Study the bible carefully, especially the broader contexts of specific verses, so that you understand God’s principles “for” living and what He wants “for” your life. Only if you really understand what the whole bible says, can you recognize errors of interpretation when people take verses out of context and twist them to say what they want them to say.”

    Mart, you have talked about this many times. Do you feel that this may be a reason why bible readers disagree because they only have part of the whole?

  53. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh…Truth is, for me, I do not possess the learned ablity within myself, or need to posssess the entire bible within my mind, to grasp exactly what small part, the Holy Spirit asks me to impart to others, whom he places within my phere of influence.
    I rely on His leading me exactly where We need to go, givnig me exactly what WE need to bring, and what lingers when WE leave, is also only that which He provides!
    I do immerse myself daily in His Word, but not through an intense study on my part as much as intense desire to understand why I am lovingly driven ever closer to His Word daily.
    The entire parts of bible I do possess to memory, are exactly those parts of the whole, which He has impressed upon me.
    What He has also impressed upon me, is that the entire word is true , connected, and useful, for teaching, rebuking, and correcting others as well as myself.
    2 Timothy 3:16-17 ” All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoruoghly equipped for every good work.”
    Part of the good work, is to sometimes give a word to put others right in according with the Word of God.
    The rubuked always feel it is out of context concerning them, unless the Holy Spirit allows them to be open to being rebuked. If not, the words get rejected, and only the giver is blessed with obeying that directed response, and all others within that given sphere that allow its words to find them in accord, they find they are blessed in the hearing of His Word as well. Gary

  54. oneg2dblu says:

    My most powerful spiritual gift is, the giving of the word when directed, as in prophesying. If you know the bible, you know an “unwelcome word given,” is a word much rejected as well!
    But that rejection, is not what concerns the deliverer as much as the acting in accordance to what is given by the Spirit, to be delivered.
    We’ve just read about Kings that would cringe on the hearing of the words given them, and those who were stiff-necked always refused to listen to the word as being beneficial to them, as they already had their minds set upon another context.
    Unbelief, disoebidence, disregard, unrepentant, are some of the qualities of those who refuse to take rebuke for their own correction.
    That prophet may go away hated… but in honoring the position he has been granted, even unto death, He obeys! So, every word you hear that rubs you the wrong way, may be exactly what you need to revisit with an open heart of new understanding. Gary

  55. poohpity says:

    In our zeal for the truth of scripture, we must never forget its purpose–to equip us to do good to others. We do not study God’s word simply to increase our own knowledge, or prepare us to win arguments or to sit in judgement of others. Hopefully we study God’s Word so that we will know how to do God’s work in the world. It does not seem useful unless we use it to do good to others. That may at times be useful with blatant sin but even then I have to understand that none of us will ever be without sin and with that in mind we must be careful to not try to be the Holy Spirit who convicts a person of sin. The basic that I have been given to do is to love God and love others that will be shown in how much mercy and grace I show others. I have never read where convicting someone of sin or rebuking them is a fruit of the Spirit but it is possible I missed that somewhere. 2 Tim 3:17 to me says that is what trains each person to be fully equipped to good works.

  56. oneg2dblu says:

    Only the Holy Spirit convicts a person to changing,
    there are no words expressed by man the can replace that work of the Holy Spirit.
    We who are called to share a hard word, are not the ones who convict others. We don’t play Holy Spirit games with the scriptures, we only deliver the message.
    If it convicts, that is the Holy Spirit doing the work.
    Whether one recieves it as a good work, or something else, is not within the messenger’s concern, for the good work of delivering has been addressed, and many times without knowledge of its resultant effect upon the recipient. That is the work of the Holy Spirit
    alone. A shared word of God is always for the benefit of both the giver and the receiver, and God always gets all the Glory. It is never about the vehicle used, it is
    about the destination, and the purpose, God’s Glory
    revealed.

  57. poohpity says:

    That is where we differ strongly it is about the vehicle and scripture gives us warning about that. Sometimes the vehicle gets in the way of the work that God will do. Allowing God to do that kind of work with the gentleness and kindness of his delivery shows how much we either trust God or not. God is the only one who can see a man’s heart.

  58. royalpalm says:

    Hello, BTA family,

    It is good to remember that rebuking, like correcting is an act of grace, so the sinner may realize his errors and repent of his sins.

    When we are silent in the presence of sin, we show tolerance and approval…and encourage wickedness. The Bible teaches us that as sons of the heavenly Father we are to hate evil. Rebuking is part of our mandate as salt of the earth – preventing moral and spiritual decay in the society where God placed us.

    Rebuke is necessary to stop evil and to develop godly character

    Proverbs 29:15 “The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.”
    Proverbs 24:25 “But those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, And a good blessing will come upon them.”

    Paul wrote to Titus in 2:15 “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
    and to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:2 “Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.” and in 1 Timothy 5:20 “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.”

    Jesus rebuked unrepentant cities Matt.11:20 and said in Revelation3:19″As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.”

    Rebuke is an act of love. mercy, and grace and we should exercise it when it is called for.

  59. foreverblessed says:

    Thank you all, Gary I pray for you.
    And this I found today, it is maybe good for this topic, to search scripture, to find the hidden treasures of the Kingdom, like one treasure Rocky worte about, that the one who is the leader is the one who washes the dirty feet, that is a great treasure,

    “Consider the Truths of My Kingdom as well worth all search, all sacrifice. Dig down into the soil. Dig when it means toil, fatigue.

    Above and below the ever-present material you must look for My Hidden Treasure. It is not what you say, but what you perceive, that will influence other lives.

    My Spirit will communicate this to you and also to those round you. So for their sakes delve.”
    from God at eventide, june 4

  60. poohpity says:

    Boy royalpalm, you got all those rebukes down pat and have used scripture to prove YOUR point. Now look for those verse that say things like “those without sin cast the first stone”, “There is therefore no condemnation”, “judge not lest thee be judged”, “Bare with one another because we each have faults”, “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. I agree that there are times that we are to rebuke but more times than not encouraging others to do and be better would seem like the good and right thing to do.

  61. nezzar says:

    In the past I have clung to false beliefs and Jesus had to send a person to me to make a correction, because I had stopped listening to Him. I would hope that Jesus could count on some of you to do the same. I have seen the affects of false doctrine, and how it spreads like ripples in the water. I’ve seen how false doctrine hurts the individual believer. I do not want to be responsible for the spread of false doctrine. That being said I hope that people can correct me when I’m wrong.

    Poohpity

    I can’t think of anyone I’d rather be corrected by, because I know that you would be kind and gentle.

  62. poohpity says:

    Oh sweetheart thank you but I need correction many times too. The bad part is when we do not think we will ever need correction or that we are always right. We all fall short.

  63. disciple7 says:

    “Rebuke is an act of love. mercy, and grace and we should exercise it when it is called for.”

    Amen, RoyalPalm, that is a love too often overlooked in these days of people only listening to what their itching ears want to hear.

  64. disciple7 says:

    oneg2dblu, your last post sums it up perfectly.
    Soli Deo Gloria

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