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Sticky Music

Jerusalem Streeet Musicians

A science reporter for Public Radio International recently became interested in how many of us experience songs that suddenly pop into our heads and then play over and over until we wish we could get them out of our minds.

We’ve talked  here before about why we sometimes wake up with a song running through our mind– that in some ways we wish we could never forget.

Rhitu Chatterjee of PRI took her question to a music psychologist who told her that science refers to this experience as stuck-music syndrome, sticky music, cognitive itch, or “earworm”.

The psychologist went on to describe one study that documented 1000 examples of people who’d had the exeperience. She said she was surprised to find that out of the 1000 there were only a dozen or so who listed “involuntary recall” of the same song. Such findings seemed to indicate that the songs that we can’t get out of our minds may be a fairly personal experience. It’s different than concluding that a large group of people or even a whole generation is  walking around with the same song in their heads. (If there is more truth to that, this article didn’t reflect that).

The article went on to suggest that songs may be more likely than plain words to stick in our minds because of the multi-sensory combination of rhythm, rhyme, and melody of music.

As the article wound down Chatterjee notes that one of the most common questions people have is “how to turn off the songs that we can’t get out of our mind.” One answer is to try to think of another song—realizing that the one that cures us might be the one that gets stuck next.

In thinking back on the article, the examples it used seemed to show that at times there may be  undesirable characteristics in lyrics that become “earworms.”  (i.e.  sexual obsession).

So as an antidote to the songs that “drag us down” rather than “pulling us up” am wondering whether there’s something about “sticky music”  has anything to do with why the songs of Israel make up the largest book of the Bible (Psalms 1-150); and why Paul urged the people of God to speak to one another in songs, hymns and spiritual songs (Eph 5:19)  (Col 3:16). The article did mention that rhythm, rhyme, and structure of music can make it easier to remember than just words and that that was one reason songs were used in  pre-literate times to help people remember information.

What surprised me is that when I went to the last book of the Bible for what I assumed to be the ultimate sticky song, I found it said that living creatures were repeatedly saying rather than repeatedly singing, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!” (Rev 4:8).

Don’t know what to make of these words that are repeatedly said– rather than  sung– in the presence of God. But at the very least, it does seem showcase a God who deserves our consuming, repeated attention.

Am also wondering whether we might even be in a better place than the angels to see that “holy, holy, holy” doesn’t just refer to an absence of evil. Am thinking those repeated words may describe, above all, the absolute perfection of the love by which our God used a Roman execution to “become sin for us”… to bring us (through his resurrected life) into right relationship with Himself, His Spirit, and His Father. (2Cor 5:21).

Whether sung or spoken, the truth that our God loves us that much is the thought that deserves everlasting replay in all of us….

 


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112 Responses to “Sticky Music”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    We listen to a lot of music here in our home, mostly *country* music. There are all kinds of poems and music that is put to them, lost to us is the music that accompanied the Psalms.

    In one of the recent songs I have heard is a line that says “funny how a melody is felt like a memory”.

    Some people only hear the melody, while others only the words. In the matter of the music we listen to in our lives it may not matter that much, but in the Psalms the melody is not important only the message.

    So it is as I see it with regards to Revelation 4: 8 it is the message not the melody that is important.

    Steve

  2. BruceC says:

    Mart,

    I am glad you brought this up. I thought at times I was losing it (and maybe I still am) when I could not get a song out of my head for sometimes hours at a time. It would just keep popping up. But thankfully those songs are usually either some of the new praise songs we do in church or the old traditional hymns. And as your article said; when it did leave another took its place. I wish we had the music that originally accompanied the Psalms in the Word!
    Along with songs I have images that pop up from time to time. Some good; some not so. Some of those are from the Passion and that is good to be reminded of His great love for us and what it cost Him. I pray that everyday I am reminded of that.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  3. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart!

    You wrote:
    “Am thinking those repeated words may describe, above all, the absolute perfection of the love by which our God used a Roman execution to “become sin for us”… to bring us (through his resurrected life) into right relationship with Himself, His Spirit, and His Father. (2Cor 5:21).”

    I have just come through the experience (again) of sharing a song with a semi-comatose loved one who responds physiologically a song. This time, it was the sixth verse of Psalm 23. (Psalm 23:6) put to a simple melody. It has seemed to me over the years that it is the entire experience (“multi-sensory combination of rhythm, rhyme, and melody of music”) as the researcher states that is so compelling.

    It makes me wonder at the way we are made (Psalm 139:14). And I wonder whether it isn’t the “praise” component intrinsic in the whole creation as much as the “fearfully and wonderfully made” part…

    Our God is the ground of all being, I believe. There are harmonies we sense far deeper than by thinking — or over-thinking. Perhaps the holiness of God is more basic to being — than some complex philosophical idea.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  4. remarutho says:

    Could we possibly dance our praise silently?
    The angels certainly are saying their praise…unless perhaps John of Patmos couldn’t hear the music…
    Birds sing praise — and elk, and hyenas and geckos…
    What is the music of the spheres?

    Thanks, Mart! This is a grand way to begin the day!

  5. yooperjack says:

    Mart: On Saturday I listen and watch music programs on T.V. Bill Gaither is on 5-6 times, there almost all the same just different channels. I usually get one of those songs in my head all week. I think it may be a safe guard against the bombardment of thoughts, ideas and suggestions from old slue foot.

    I wish I could sing out of my mouth as good as I sing in my head, I’d be on T. V. myself.

    The part about saying or singing: they’re both a joyful noise to the Lord. Both our words and songs are powerful.

  6. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… I’m glad we don’t have the complete set of notes written before us with those Psalms, for some of us would surely not agree with them either as we might prefer a different beat, or another arrangement or more.
    So, now we have those gifts that God has given to others who put then to melody today. Many of our Hymns are created by Psalms words, much of our music and our National Anthems all set to them as well, for our Father has placed those songs in our hearts to always remember those very words. They are music to our ears, even to those who can’t sing well!
    Sometimes I think God can hear the hands of music, of those who gather to sign for each other in our church. They make my face wet as I see their wealth of expression displayed in such loving notes from His directed hands. Gary

  7. yooperjack says:

    Our words and songs are powerful. We had a spruse tree that about 15 years ago was 2 foot tall. I was ready to dig it up and get rid of it because it was sick looking. My wife began to attend it and now it’s 25 feet tall. I asked what do you do to these trees and flowers to make them grow so nice? The only thing I can get to grow is what I want to get rid of. She said: “I talk to them and sing them a song.”

    I bet that’s what narrow does to her garden.

  8. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Hi Mart,
    I also read this article last week and thought at the time it would make a good topic for discussion.
    One of the theories about this phenomena is that it goes back to before we had written language and stories were told and retold until they became inbeded in the mind.
    This is very much in Hebrew tradition and other cultures of that region.
    It is also the way God’s Word was taught to Hebrew children, as it is today and also with Islam.
    Seems to me if God wants us to Praise Him and have His Word foremost in our minds, He would give us the mechanism to be able to remember it.
    If we could learn and remember God’s Word the same way we get advertisement jingles in our heads then we would be in a far better place to Love, Serve and Worship Him.
    Paul said we should be “transformed by the renewing of our minds”. The constant re-sounding of tunes and words in our heads is part of this process.

    bob

  9. fadingman says:

    Commercial jingles are written as intentional earworms. Some beer commercial jingles of the 60’s and 70’s still go through my head, even though I’ve never had a desire to drink alcohol of any kind. It’s the catchy tune that does it. And while the world uses this to attract us to itself, we can also use it beneficially.

    I like a lot of the praise songs from the 70’s and later that have scripture for lyrics. They helped me memorize the words and they come back to mind very easily, sometimes on their own. I think the simple catchy tune is a big part of it.

    I’m sure there are plenty of songs with the word “Seek ye first the kingdom of God”, but because there is one that has a simple and memorable tune, it comes to mind easily and frequently. (Another one also goes through my mind a lot. Keith Green singing “… We are His workmanship, created for good works in Christ…”.)

    These kinds of scripture songs can be quite useful towards making level paths for our feet. It would be good for more Christian song writers to take advantage of this and put scripture to song.

  10. poohpity says:

    In today’s Christian music as in past songs the folks who write the lyrics use scripture. Just listening to music and singing the words one can learn the bible. First David when writing Psalms 119:9,11,19,24,105 pretty much the whole Psalm talked as Paul did in Col 3:16 the importance of the Word dwelling richly in your soul. Rising, through out the day and before you go to bed having them in your minds can keep our focus on not just the absence of evil but the absolute perfection of God’s Love. Then when we speak we will speak scripture and our focus will be on the Lord and not on us. That would bring praise to anyone’s lips.

  11. SFDBWV says:

    Maru, I just wanted to confirm your earlier comments regarding music as therapy. When Matthew was in the early hours of his coma a neurologist suggested we get him some earphones and let him listen to music as it is a stimulant to the brain, as it touches many areas of the brain such as memory, and emotion and countless unknown connections.

    When he was an awakening coma patient and home with me, the first Christmas I got out all of his old tapes and played them for him; he got very excited and said “Dad I can remember, the memories are flooding in.” I will never forget that Christmas morning as it was the first time he was able to get up and with my help walk from his bed to a chair.

    There is great power in the melody and words of music.

    I listen to the bird’s sing every day and some mornings I can almost hear those angels sing at day break.

    I am saddened for you that you have a loved one in a semi coma, my heart felt sympathies for all concerned, and prayers for as well.

    Steve

  12. poohpity says:

    Steve can Matt walk from his bed to a chair now like he did then? I hope he is getting better that would be so great.

  13. SFDBWV says:

    Dear friend pooh, yes Matt walks as he stepped out that morning. With my help he stands and walks, I like a crutch, he leans on me and we dance.

    He used to try very hard to do so without my help, only to be disappointed. Funny that very Christmas morning in December of 99 the Holy Spirit had me write down 2 scripture verses; Isaiah 60: 1 and Isaiah 40: 31. That has been many tears and many years ago now, but it is verses like those and our hope that gets us up every morning to face another day.

    Thank you for your compassion.

    Steve

  14. poohpity says:

    If we have our minds filled with God’s Word and music that supports that Word then it is similar to what happens when oil meets water it does not blend. The oil being things of this world that distort the truth (drags us down) and water being the Living Word (brings life changing health). Garbage in means garbage out but being filled with praise and peace Phil 4:4,8,9 NLT.

  15. saled says:

    Maru’s question about the music of the spheres reminds me of a comment in a book that I’m reading, and led me to look up the term. It seems that some great thinkers of the past, including Pythagorus, thought that the movement of the sun, moon, and planets created a perfectly harmonious sound that could not be heard on earth. The comment by the author was about the word ‘universe’. He said that universe actually means ‘one song.’ Could it be that all of God’s creation sings one song?

    When it comes to music, I am very uneducated. My husband understands a lot more than I do. He often complains about songs sung in a minor key; he dislikes this, but tells me that it is more difficult than to sing in a major key. I think of Dr. J. Vernon McGee saying that all of nature sings in a minor key, waiting for the redemption. I wonder about Mart’s comment on Revelation 4:8 where the praise is spoken, rather than sung.

  16. SFDBWV says:

    Wishing I had paid more attention I can not recall the scientist’s name who had discovered the process, but there is a way of seeing sound vibrations using various metals and a violin bow.

    The mechanics behind the experiment are to take flat tiles of various metals put a hole in the center of them and place each so that they are balanced on an axle in a horizontal position.

    Then taking granulated salt or sugar and dust the surface of the metal plate then draw the bow across the edge of the plate. The resulting sound creates a pattern in the grains of salt or sugar allowing one to see sound.

    Different metals produce different sounds and so different patterns.

    The entire matter reminds me of just how limited our vision is, as well as our senses.

    Yes Saled I too believe that each star sings a song and that the movement of the planets in harmony around the sun also produces a symphony of sounds we cannot perceive.

    That heaven has sounds and sights we scarcely can even imagine.

    I believe the movie “2001 A Space Odyssey” won an Academy Award for its soundtrack in an attempt to capture that very concept.

    I suppose it very wise of God to limit what it is we can hear, otherwise the “noise” of everything around us could be confusing and disorienting, as well as seeing all the “invisible* things going on around us distracting our concentration.

    I also think that there are other things that get stuck in our head besides music.

    A beautiful spring like morning in the mountains this morning.

    Steve

  17. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    Thanks for your kind words & prayers, Steve. I also keep your little family in my prayers: Matt, Glenna & you.

    I think of those dandy, colorful “spectrum”
    illustrations showing the wave lengths of light and radiation. We are somehow the “roy g. biv” creatures. We see the rainbow colors — and are mighty limited in our perception. I have no complaint, nor even any opinion about our range of perception. It is what it is.

    I do wonder, as Mart is suggesting, whether we are not more capable of perceiving the presence of God than we realize. This yearning for the goodness, mercy and grace of the Savior explains the restless soul. I always wonder at we humans who celebrate the darkness.

    The Creation is very good. The shadow side of that goodness is rebellion — which tries to turn away from the Creator. How silly God’s children must seem to him when we build a little empire of our own. The darkness cannot overcome the Light. It seems to me the human creature is built for surrender, not self-striving.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  18. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… good point about God limiting our senses, for if we could see the unseen around us and hear all sounds, the distraction would be too great for our limited and sticky minds. As far as sound… God spoke into a still void and empty darkness, and with that sound, all creation became illuminated and alive through his Word alone.
    Today the sound of His Word still awakens the darkened unseen world us, as He gives His New Life to those void and dark souls who do not yet know Him.
    That spiritually awakened sense that He gives freely to all those who will call upon Him, a whole new creation arises, Born Again, to knowing and hearing Him again for the first time. Yes, we all hear more sounds today then we ever heard before, as we come freely back to the sound of His Voice again,and again. Praise God!

  19. SFDBWV says:

    Again I am reminded of scripture given to me long ago as encouragement.

    Psalms 30: 1-5 tells the*Saints* to sing and give thanks.
    Psalms 40: 1-4 tells me God has put a new song in my mouth.
    Psalms 134: 1-3 tells me to lift up my hands in the sanctuary in the house of the Lord and bless the Lord.

    All are worship all are given as praise and all relate to music, even sometimes only noise.

    Steve

  20. yooperjack says:

    For all you folks in the south if you want to see how we move 200 plus inches of snow, go to “Pasty.net” click “todays pasty cam” then click “time to blow it away”. The machine that blows the snow is called a “Snow blower”.

  21. yooperjack says:

    Some call the machine a “Snow Go”

  22. poohpity says:

    I would think that the Lord knew that music was very important since he created us he gave us all kinds of gifts. I do not know for sure but I bet the word “jubilation” came from Jubal who was the father of all those who played the harp and flute, Gen 5:21.

    My friend is a music therapist and she used music to bring comfort and healing when we went to minister to the children orphaned from the HIV/AIDS pandemic in Africa. There music was used to carry stories down through the ages just like the Israeli’s did. It is a big part of their lives and folklore.

    Just as a side note I wonder if it is not more likely that the stories are easier to remember with music because one can really tell when someone doesn’t tell the story right they hit a sour note, lol.

    I have often wondered because Psalms 100 was my very first to know if the Lord was not preparing me that although my notes were not in tune that as long as we sang to the Lord all would be good. Psalms 100:1

  23. poohpity says:

    OOoops that was Gen 4:21.

  24. poohpity says:

    Mart looking at Rev 4:8 I wonder if it says “saying” was singing because in Rev 5:9 they were singing a new song, “saying:” it goes on with the words. It seems the 4 living creatures and the twenty-four elders each had a harp with golden bowls filled with our prayers Rev 5:8 so maybe they really were singing and the term “saying” was just to record the words were.

  25. poohpity says:

    record what the words were.

  26. yooperjack says:

    Music is the language of the universe, for all to hear. A smile is the condition of the heart for all to see. And the heart belongs to God Almighty the Creator of everything. God sees all that He has created and says: “It is good.”

  27. SFDBWV says:

    Jackie I am not finding “Time to blow it away” on todays pasty cam?

    Steve

  28. yooperjack says:

    Steve: “Click” the small picture in the upper right hand corner on the home page. Then scroll down and there will be two pictures the one on the right says “Whats up” that will take you to a slide show. The little picture left of “Whats up” will take you to “time to blow it away”

    You can spend a whole day clicking pitures some are really nice.

  29. yooperjack says:

    Most of the time just click the pictures.

  30. SFDBWV says:

    Thanks Jackie for the help, I am barely literate when it comes to computers.

    We too have equipment similar to the snow blowers you have pictured and when needed the National Guard has even biger ones.

    I don’t have all day but will save everything so I can look around your world a little.

    Thanks
    Steve

  31. yooperjack says:

    If you click those history dates and all those small pictures there are airial pictures and historic pictures. Like I said one can spend hours looking at pictures.

    It’d a nice picture lesson Pasty gives us.

  32. poohpity says:

    Can you imagine if we fully understood the fullness or completeness of the Love of God how that would effect our behaviors. When people come to love another their reaction to everything around them is evidence of that love. Wouldn’t it be nice to act like that all the time because of God’s love for us and our love for Him. We would be like having a wonderful song acted out with all the harmonies and melodies going together to form a beautiful symphony. Gee I live in a fantasy world but I can still hope until then I will keep wearing my boots.

  33. foreverblessed says:

    Well Pooh, this is the time that we can celebrate, and sing and be joyful, wouldn’t it be nice we could be dancing and singing right now, with all the turmoil around us, but Jesus is with us, so we are OK. What a way to go yet!
    Yesterday I was really sick, ill, or whatever you can call it, couldn’t think much, and what happened, a song was sung in my head, I heard it, a spiritual song, the thing is I do not remember which now, but I heard it and it made me feel much better, it drew my attention away from feeling ill, and turned me towards God again. Could it be the Holy Spirit sang this in my head? I believe that is so. Thank God, we can sing in turmoil, and if we can’t You come and help us!

  34. yooperjack says:

    Poohpity: You took the thought right out of my mind about haft way through your post. She’s living in a fantasy world. LOL

    I fantasized about if I was a billionaire having a group of believers living far away from society in some small village and live like you were saying. But then I thought “naw!!!” we can’t even get along as a family like your dreaming of or as a church.

    That’s why I have to wonder without a completely new soul (mind, will and emotions) I can’t see Heaven being that great. We have a new spirit, new heart and we’re promised a new body but I have not read in the Bible where we will get a new soul. I don’t mean renewing of the just our mind; I mean renewing of our free will and emotions as well. That “free will” we have is the one thing I believe God screwed up on. The problem is when God speaks; like, “let us make man;” we are what we are with all of our flaws and all. Six thousand years and we’re not any better. And that’s two thousand years after Jesus as well. We may be doomed to living in eternity with a bunch of self righteous, self centered people with wings. That’s not cool. Maybe Heaven is but a dream? There is no better alternative is there?

  35. poohpity says:

    If I believed as you do Jack, I would have no hope. So I will choose to live a life of praise for what will be in eternity and who God is now and forever. I hang everyday on the Love that my God has for me and in that alone I find joy, comfort and peace that is not a fantasy, it is real. I also feel there is a better alternative here and that is to be around those who believe as I do and sing praises even in the midst of illness as foreverblessed made the choice to do and there are many others who also make a choice to focus and sing the songs the Lord has put in our hearts rather than concentrate on all the negative that people can hand out.

    I really feel sad for you Jack, it must be miserable.

  36. yooperjack says:

    Poohpity: Read all of my post again, I have the same joy you have in Jesus but there are billions of people that do not, because of free will “WE” chose good or evil. Look at the numbers, free will is not working. And to take free will to Heaven as it is would be a tragedy.

    If you believed as I do you would think outside of the box like what is real and what is a wonderful dream? Heaven is hope; that is what it is, without that hope what reason is there to be. Life would be just a bunch stuff gathered over a life time.

    You, want to be around people that are like you. I, want to be around people that are more like Jesus and live in the real world and not in fantasy land. I’ve seen both sides of people that are nice when you agree with them but if you go outside of their box look out carnality kicks in real fast.

    You feel sad for me, that is, better than calling me names, I’ll take it; you’re doing better now you won’t have to apologize tomorrow.

    As far as being miserable; not as long as there are people like you in this world to cheer me up.

    In reality I really have it made. My God supplies “ALL” of my needs. Would you like me to pray for you? What are your needs?

  37. narrowpathseeker says:

    Jack, I checked out your pasty.net site and the one you told me about last week. It looks like a beautiful place to live. Snow can be beautiful to look at and to play in but it sure can be a lot of trouble when you need to get somewhere or need to clear it off the roof. We had several feet of snow last year …. roofs caved in , barns collapsed, and horses and cows died. We had little to nothing this year. I am not complaining…… I’ve been working outdoors the past few days and I have been spending a great deal of time at the river. It was about 68 here today with a warm breeze. Clothes dried on the line in about an hour.

  38. poohpity says:

    Jack, I would be to bored to be around people like me cause there are not any, just me, that is not what I said anyway, I said that have the same beliefs. It is not right that I apologize when I mess up or admit when I am wrong?

  39. poohpity says:

    Oh yes it is always kind to rub mistakes in the person’s face after they apologize.

  40. SFDBWV says:

    When I was about 13 I remember an incident that overcame me and I began to sing, not a popular or spiritual song, but just a sad melody with words that came from within me. They made no sense and were not meant to. The following day I learned of someone I knew dying I felt a very strong connection from the odd experience of the song and of the death.

    Over my lifetime I have come to experience the song many times it always followed by either death or tragedy somewhere around those I know.

    I didn’t sing it every time there were deaths, trying not to when I would feel them come on me, feeling almost as if I could keep something sad from happening by not giving in to the impulse in me to sing.

    This subject reminded me that these past 13 years the experience has been very rare. I have come to believe because I have been so overwhelmed physically and emotionally that perhaps I am not as sensitive as I once was. I have sensed the sadness without the song with the same results but the song has been silent mostly these past 13 years.

    I have not shared this information with anyone except Glenna, she understands. I do not expect many of you to understand or accept what I have said, and that is fine, I only mention it now because of Foreverblessed having experienced a healing song in her heart.

    There is power in faith, and power in praise, and I believe there is a connection to the power in music that connects us to God in a way we may not fully understand only *feel* when we hear the melody.

    Steve

  41. yooperjack says:

    Narrow: Yes, it is not only beautiful but peaceful. Our roofs are made to handle the snow, some years I get five foot on my roof and don’t shovel it off. Some of the newer homes have flatter roofs so they clean them off.

    We all have snow blowers or plows on our trucks to clear the driveway.

    The only thing I don’t like is ice, when it gets below 20 degrees salt won’t work very good on the roads. The State is using a liquid salt on their roads that is working better, but the car gets really messed up.

    It’s a whole lot better than tornados, floods and hurricanes.

  42. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Jack,

    I just realised from your last few posts and your pasty reference that you live in a Cornish part of the USA.
    I did some research about 10 years ago and discovered the area known as Kernewick in Central Northern USA which must be near where you are.
    In the Cornish language Cornwall is known as Kernow and, of course is the home of the Pasty.
    Are you decended from Cornish miners who went all over the world, even Mexico where they still use their names and traditions in one village, and are probably the best miners on Earth because of the 2000 years or more of Tin mining and other minerals here?

    Bob

  43. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & All –

    It seems to me you are spot-on, Foreverblessed! You wrote:

    “Could it be the Holy Spirit sang this in my head? I believe that is so. Thank God, we can sing in turmoil, and if we can’t You come and help us!”

    There is a mystery here that is not easy for me to touch. I remember Paul talking about our outer nature wasting away, while our inner nature is being renewed day by day. He speaks of this life we are living as though we are camping. (2 Corinthians 5:4)

    He speaks of a state of near-conflict, in which this life always gives us hints of that absolute life (Life in Christ) we already taste or hear or feel: “He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.” (v. 5)

    Blessings always,
    Maru

  44. narrowpathseeker says:

    Jack, I agree…the snow is way better than tornados, floods, earthquakes,etc! Snow provides beauty and some fun along with it’s potential danger.

  45. narrowpathseeker says:

    In relating to the cliché that when we point a finger at someone that there are three pointing at ourselves, I have progressed somewhat in examining myself when entertaining negative thoughts about others. When I REMEMBER to do that, I quite often hear and sing “AMAZING GRACE” and the tears begin to flow. When I don’t remember to look at myself I tend to get quite self righteous. When I then become Convicted that I am more like a Pharisee than like Jesus, I take to the river and the words and tune to “Amazing Grace” begin to even more powerfully permeate my being I am reminded that Jesus said some of the worst of sinners had a better chance than the self righteous. I am reminded that the Pharisees were VERY knowledgeable regarding scripture. They used that knowledge trying to show up Jesus and to impress people with their self perceived superiority. Jesus said that loving God with all our heart and loving our neighbors as ourselves was most important. Abraham loved God with all his heart…I do a lot of thinking and talking about loving God with all my heart but I am a far cry from being like Abraham and an even farther cry from being like Jesus. Therefore, when the faults of others begin to grate on me, I lean more and more on “Lord , have mercy on us ALL” and I sing Amazing Grace more and more often. It seems that the more progress that I make, the more I see in myself that needs “fixin'”

  46. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Maru,
    Paul was a Tent maker so it is no wonder he promoted camping. lol

  47. remarutho says:

    Yes Bob!

    He probably stunk of animal hides! He also traveled a good deal. No KOAs or hot showers in his world. I’m not so sure the facts coordinate there! :o) Maru

  48. yooperjack says:

    Bob: My family is Scandinavian immigrants but there where many Cornish people then.

    This is a nut shell of how God will make it right.
    I believe there will be a major overhaul of our souls before we get to Heaven; maybe at NKJV I Corinthians 15: 50-54 when we are changed in a twinkling of an eye. “Emotions” Revelations 21: 4-5 no more sorrow, tears or crying. All the negative emotions will be gone out of our minds. “Minds” I Corinthians 2:16 we will have the mind of Christ, good by “Free Will” and good riddance. I believe all the garbage of this world we have stored in our minds will be gone forever. “All” things have become new 2 Corinthians 5:17.

    We will be completely sanctified I Thessalonians 5:23. We will have a new spirit and heart, Ezekiel 36:26-27 a new mind, the mind of Christ and a new body. We will be just like Jesus. When we see Him we will be like Him. I John 3:1-3 NKJV.

    We can have joy in our heart a song on our lips because He’s coming soon.

  49. yooperjack says:

    Bob: I never heard of Kernewick but we have a Keweenaw Peninsila that is on Lake Superior.

  50. narrowpathseeker says:

    Bob, your comment on Paul promoting camping was cute and made me laugh..thank you.

  51. oneg2dblu says:

    yooperjack… I’m not arguing a point here, but thinking that Christ always had his free will, but his will was to always do the Will of His Father. I think that the renewed mind is the same, as choice is always present but the choice then made, aligns more perfectly with God than with self. That being said, Christ was just being himself, as he was also just Being God!
    Now, if we could just share the love, His Love, and leave all the human sarcasms and retaliation for God, what a better looking blog this would be for all, and wouldn’t Our God be “better served” in doing so?
    Imagine a world filled with only renewed minds and with no apologies necessary that would be Heaven to me! Just a thought… Gary

  52. SFDBWV says:

    Jackie I find you assessment of it all to be very interesting and thought provoking. Just wondering if at the moment of the rapture or that moment when we are made new if it includes every one in all creation?

    Since by your assessment our minds are swept clean of all negative thoughts and our free will changed, is the offer of creating a new mind of Christ is made available to all? Or only to those who made the choice while still having free will to do so?

    There are untold numbers of martyrs who cry out to God for revenge, I am assuming this is before their transformation? (Revelation 6: 9-11) As well as not being consistent with forgiving ones enemies.

    The idea that we have no memory of our past life only a void where memory once lived is somewhat disturbing to me. That we have no need for answers to the puzzling questions we ask now because they are no longer in memory.

    If the concept is that only negative things are removed from our knowledge as we are made new, giving us only the mind of Christ I guess then my question is then why would God not offer the same to every person under creation? Removing all the things that made them unacceptable and so save them from an eternity of torment?

    Steve

  53. yooperjack says:

    Gary: Just think with the mind of Christ and His will we will all be in one acord, doing the Fathers will not ours on Earth as it is in Heaven. That is mind boggeling to say the least.

  54. poohpity says:

    The conductor knows the parts for everyone in the orchestra or symphony as long as they follow the lead of the One on the pedestal the music is melodious and harmonic. When one person decides to play the way they want or how they think it should be played it throws the entire piece off. That one piece causes damage to the whole song then when another follows along then it turns into total disruption and the music is no more, only noise will ensue. What should the conductor do? He could change the whole piece to follow the one who was playing differently with the other few who followed or cast those players from the orchestra and continue on with the piece that was started.

    That seems to be what the Lord did with the adversary and those who wished to remain began again to make the beautiful music. Why would one even join the orchestra in the first place if they did not want to follow the conductor? Or could it be that so many want the conductor’s position that there will be no members of the symphony any longer to play the music?

  55. yooperjack says:

    Steve: Know you are beginning to see the flaws with “Free Will” It’s “Our” choice to pick “Good or Evil”.

    Who wants to remember the evils that some had to endure in this life? People are being tormented 50 years after and evil event who would want to remember that stuff? I believe it will be gone the moment we are changed.

    I believe we will remember the good times we had and be able to share them around the camp fire in Heaven.

    I don’t have to tell you, today is the day of salvation there is no question there. We have to choose right now salvation or damnation? The problem is, most of the people in the world do not have a clue of what you and I are talking about here. Jesus die for all of man kind but if they don’t know about it? The Bible says in Romans they are without excuse.

    If we really want to know the mystery’s of God just keep on seeking.

    Thanks for your interest and not judgment, Steve.

  56. SFDBWV says:

    “There are more things in heaven and earth than dreamt of in your philosophy”. An attempt at remembering a famous quote aimed at a Greek philosopher from another.

    As Job groaned under the weight of his troubles, God ask only more questions that Job couldn’t answer, as a way of showing Job that there are more things in heaven and earth than Job can explain. So because of Job’s suffering we can learn that there is a great many things we do not know.

    Who then among us has a right to condemn or judge another for not knowing the unknowable thoughts and plans of God?

    The simplicity of accepting Jesus as do little children is sufficient to satisfy God, so why do we add to that?

    I have a library of Christian literature written by a wide variety of people who attempt to enlighten and encourage others. Each of these authors were at differing places in their walk of faith and each book speaks usually only to that one place in time where their circumstances came into a crossroad with the harsh reality of life, and so speaks as to how God walked them through that hard place in their life.

    Some speak of being lifted up to unimaginable heights of faith, still it being very personal and for their benefit at a time when it was needed in their faith walk with God.

    All meant to help another who may be at the same place they had been and meant to encourage another that there is hope.

    All of the knowledge I have read from others only shows me that for those who seek knowledge usually more questions are exposed, whereas those who just accept the gift of salvation and don’t need to know anymore are at rest.

    Yesterday a woman called me to ask about our cemetery because her 40 year old niece had just been found dead and the family needed to know their options.

    The niece “Billie” had just gotten out of prison and was still under the restraints of an ankle bracelet. I knew Billie and her family. She has two children, a boy about 14 and daughter about 7. Their alcoholic drug abuser grandmother has had custody of them since Billie’s incarceration and despite my attempts to get the WV State child welfare agency to take he children into foster care, they are still with their grandmother.

    The little boy Isaac missed his mother very much while she was in prison, and used to talk to me of when she would get out how they were going to be a family again.

    Life here is so sad, no wonder there are so many sad songs, I hope the music we hear in heaven will be a reflection of the joy and peace we all are promised in contrast to the unhappiness and heartache we endure here.

    Steve

  57. yooperjack says:

    Steve: My whole life I have been asking: “Why”? I study people and anything else that is interesting and complicated. Most of the time things do lead to just more questions. I seem to get in trouble when I ask the hard questions of people who live in little boxes and don’t question anything. They just go with the flow.

    So far lightning hasn’t killed me so God doesn’t mind if I question some of His handy work. Our problem is we can’t see the whole picture; we see very little at best. That will not stop me from asking the hard questions even if it doesn’t mean anything.

    I also see humor in many things people take so serious. The angrier they get the more I laugh. Life is way too short to take it so serious and be angry about things we can’t change.

    God really has a sense of humor just look around sometime. I’d like to be a fly on the wall in Heaven and listen to the Father and Jesus laughing as they look down at us acting like fools. Jesus may say to the Father: “Did you see that I told them not to do that but they won’t listen” The Father reply’s: “I’ve been telling them that for thousands of years; I guess they have to learn the hard way, they want me to do everything for them”. “If I do it for them they’ll never learn how to fend for them selves.” Jesus says: “Oh well, maybe another millennium or so they’ll come around.” The Father; “We’re in no hurry Son.”

  58. foreverblessed says:

    What a sad stories you have around you Steve, I pray that the sadness will not overpower you, but that the comfort of Jesus may fill you, and through you others around you. 2 Corinthians 1:4
    Maru thanks for your verses, they are so true, 2 Corinthians 5:4,5
    Yooper, you make a lot of fun, and think a lot. I do not mind, I hope you do not mind either that I have something to say about free will: I believe we still will have free will in heaven. And for that very fact we will be tried and tested, as Gary often writes.(Sorry this goes way out of the topic, off topic so to speak)
    That free will is one thing God will not over rule. Maybe that is the reason for all the fights, free will not being trampled under foot, to make everything run smooth.
    And we already have the mind of Christ, it says in the scripture you quote: we HAVE the mind of Christ, but it has not totally enveloped our own mind yet, we still wrestle. The time of trial and testing is here. Overcome and persevere in the faith of Jesus Christ, and doing His will.
    And the mind of Christ makes our spirit new, and slowly our whole soul and body will be more healthy too, slowly, The Spirit running through us, and giving new life.
    Maybe it is for that free will, that God allowed the evil to be around, so that we would see what evil does to character, and that we will decide for ourselves, we will not follow our own will, as it turns out to get worse, as we can see in the evil. So sick of all the evil, and fed up with it, then out of our free will we will choose to follow God’s will forever and ever (sorry Yooper, you made me go … ;-)
    And one thing in which you can see that we have grown in being more like Christ is in our singing praises to God and Jesus. The more we praise the more we are like Him.
    Many who would be able to enter heaven now, would not want to, as they see all that singing praises to God, they stand at the door, and are shocked and turn around:
    Holy Holy Holy. three times Holy.
    Holy Father, Holy Son, Holy Ghost
    Can I sing that now, and be gladdened by the singing, and really put my whole heart in it? When I was in a legalistic church I could not do that, neither was all that Jesus’ stuff tolerated, too easy way out. When a church cannot praise Jesus whole heartedly, watch out. (read todays ODB very interesting about living in Grace as an act of Gratitude)
    And as you say: God tells His Son, we’re in no hurry. Maybe another millennium plus some more time.
    At the very end looking back we will see what God had in mind and then we will say: It was well planned, it was very good.

  59. yooperjack says:

    Forever: You’re right about us having the mind of Christ now. If we want to be in one accord with Christ, *our* Free Will has to go. We can’t even come to an agreement on this little blog about the Bible. What makes you think it would change in Heaven unless we get rid of all the flaws including our free will. “All things must become new” Free Will is not working, look at the numbers.

    God in Genesis 6: 6-7 God said He was sorry He made man. If there was no free will there would have been no fall. If there was no tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, there would have been no fall. If Lucifer was sent to Mars there would have been no fall. Who was God sorry for?

    Just a thought.

  60. poohpity says:

    If our free will is gone then how do we make the choice to accept Christ’s atoning work on the cross or God’s love? To force someone to love is not love at all? To allow someone the ability to make their own decisions shows love. The Lord is not a domineering or controlling force who does not allow people to think for themselves.

    Those who cause the most disagreement about the bible are usually those who have not read it but talk as if they have. If Genesis 6 were read a little closer then one could see by the time God wanted to destroy mankind was after beings from heaven decided to breed with women from the earth. “Then” the Lord…… That is written in Genesis 6:1-5. That caused a whole bunch of problems and I am guessing there is where Greek mythology came from. Those from heaven were probably those who had joined satan in being disobedient to the Lord and caused evil.

  61. poohpity says:

    Satan always used half truths when tempting Adam and Eve, it is also seen in the temptation of Jesus. It seems to be that way for those who take scripture out of context to prove human reasoning and logic while not understanding it as a whole to learn what the Lord would have us learn about God and our own tendencies which should lead us to the Lord. Understanding that what was done for us in spite of ourselves is really knowing what Love is all about and it takes free will to want that doesn’t it? Or are we forced to want the Lord in our lives?

  62. yooperjack says:

    I said we don’t want to take free will to Heaven. Or we will have the same mess we have now. You may believe what you want that is your free will but It’s not out of context if God wanted to take out all of man kind, animals and birds. He knew He messed up. Who was He sorry for?

    I’m done with this subject unless someone has a real question not want is pick a stupid arguement.

  63. bratimus says:

    How did the topic go from a song stuck in the head to we not take our free will to heaven?

    What would be the point of going through this war of our free will on earth in choosing between the truth of God and the lie of the world, if we are just going to give it up at the finish line.

  64. poohpity says:

    But God did not take ALL of man kind, animals and birds. Noah and his family and 2 of several kinds of animals and some there were 7 taken into the safety of the Arc which also may represent the Arc of God’s love through Christ Jesus.

    I think God would be sorry for those who make a choice not to believe in Jesus. I thought we were just talking not arguing. He may have been sorry for those who made a choice to do evil and rebellion over living under His protective wing and a relationship with their creator.

  65. bratimus says:

    yooper,

    What you are saying is that our gift of free will from God and our whole life of it on Earth is just a test and trail to show us that free will doesn’t work?

  66. foreverblessed says:

    Narrow, what you wrote March 9, 8.24 am really touched me. That we walk humbly with our God.
    We got lost in a little discussion, about which Bob wrote, God’s thoughts are higher then our thoughts.
    I believe Yooper wants to say, we do not take our own corrupted will into heaven. We will not have the fallen nature anymore in heaven, and so our free will will not be corrupted anymore. Yooper probably you talking about the same thing, just some words used differently.

    Lets praise God instead. Sing Holy Holy Holy, Lord, Holy Father, Holy Son, Holy Ghost.

  67. foreverblessed says:

    Singing praises to God, why does God want that we praise Him, does God need it to be praised? Is it to make Him full?
    When I was much younger deep down I felt a resentment to start praising God, why does He want that, what a time consuming business, lets go and do something instead, helping others.

    This devotion tells the story of what I feel inside is the truth, my own wording would not be as good as this.

    God at eventide by two listeners, March 22
    I desire the love of man’s heart in abundant measure.

    Not because God would be adored for Himself and for His own gratification, but because I know that only as the love of man flows out to Me does man attain to his purest and best.

    That rush of love, which follows the understanding and realization of My Love for man, sweetens and purifies his whole being.

    “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.”

    The love you give to your neighbor is the overflow of your love to me.
    It is not for the sake of God, He doesn’t need it, as many verses in Job tell us,
    but for the purifying of our own soul that it is needed, God’s love flowing through us, making us whole and touching others around us.

  68. saled says:

    foreverblessed, like you, when I was younger it didn’t make sense to me that God wanted us to praise Him. It seemed to be narcissistic of Him. But somewhere over the years I read that praise is the way that God gives Himself to us, the way that we begin to realize a bit more of how majestic, and loving, and awesome He is.
    The reading that you shared above also makes sense, that the praise isn’t so much for God, but for the purifying of our own souls. Some music truly lifts my heart in praise. Somewhere I have read that angels don’t sing. I’m not sure if this is true, but maybe this is why the creatures in Rev. 4:8 aren’t singing.

  69. SFDBWV says:

    Foreverblessed you are a very tender and compassionate person, I am grateful for that. Always Mary in your worship of Christ, I love seeing that in you. You certainly bless me in your comments, thank you.

    When Matthew was first in the hospital in intensive care only the first day or so, I seen an angel standing outside his glassed room, *she* spoke to Matthew in a way I can only explain as by expression, as if her expression carried not the sound of words, but in such a way as words entered my ability to comprehend them. I could understand and hear though no words were spoken.

    She kept saying over and over again to Matthew, “I am so very happy, so very pleased for you.” Then turned to me and said nothing but deep sadness was in her eyes for me.

    I gave this a great deal of thought, and sometimes ponder what it all may mean, yet though I have no concrete answers I leave the matter to God and let it rest there.

    Though while we speak of music and songs being stuck in our heads, the songs and music we *hear* in our minds actually are not sounds at all but memory or a mental way of *hearing* the music. It reminds me of the way the angel spoke to Matt, not by sounds but by a mental communication void of natural sound.

    Again given the nature of the spiritual nature of our souls, I give wonder if this is the way we *hear* music while awaiting the new bodies and the new earth in which to live? The sounds of heaven sung without natural sound?

    Steve

  70. yooperjack says:

    bratimu: This is more like boot camp for Heaven. Free Will is a curse not a gift. We’ll only leave the bad stuff at gate. That’s a good thing.

    6. And the Lord was sorry that *He* had made man on earth.
    7. for *I* am sorry that *I* have made them. NKJV

    God admitted He messed up making man. I listed the reasons why it didn’t work, my post March 9th at 4:58pm and “Free Will” was a major mistake. God repaired the damage; my post on March 9th at 9:18 am was in a nut shell how He made it right.

    Forever: was correct when she said I meant we can’t take our own will to Heaven or we will corrupt Heaven.

    If we where to keep a record for how many people on earth through their free will choose #1.God or #2. Satan out of seven billion people on earth; who has the most converts? In my view our side is loosing big time.

    The big question is. WHY? Maybe it’s because we Christians can’t be in one accord because free will is mostly about self not God. We are not very good ambassadors for Christ are we?.

  71. remarutho says:

    Psalm 22:3 Just Praise! :-) Maru

  72. yooperjack says:

    Steve: You answered a question I was searching for “Are there female angels’? I seen at least one angel but he was a male. It was a weird feeling because this one didn’t say anything but was standing at attention waiting to escort my dieing friend. I looked him in the eye and said” “He’s not going to die he loves life too much”. Moments later the angel was gone. Nobody standing around the accident saw the angel. The way he was dressed is why he got my attention, who in there 30s wears a buttoned up vest anymore? LOL

    My friend lived to fish another day about a year later.

  73. narrowpathseeker says:

    Thank you Foreverblessed for yet another uplifting message. Like Steve said, you are always tender, compassionate, and a blessing. I am still dealing with someone from my past who is dying. In close contact with him everyday, I am battling with “flashbacks” while trying to do what I believe God wants me to do. My thoughts and feelings are sometimes incompatible with the good I am trying to do and I am painfully aware of the ugliness that still resides within me. Once again, you have been a Blessing.

  74. bratimus says:

    So we are going to become ants, and heaven is going be like a hive.

    If God’s gift of free will was a mistake, why didn’t he take it away after the flood or why even save humans to repopulate the earth with their flawed free will.

    Well might as well stop sharing opinions and thoughts, since being a free thinker is a mistake or a curse.

    so long yall

  75. yooperjack says:

    bratimus-bratimus: We will have a will but it will be God’s will not ours, it will be wonderful, we’ll be of one mind and one will that is the will and mind of Christ.

  76. narrowpathseeker says:

    Yooper, when I was about 3yo, I was playing near a deep ditch. The teenage girl that was watching me told me to get away from there. She told me to hold onto the small tree until she could get to me. I grabbed a dead limb and fell into the ditch. She screamed and ran to get help. Then a pretty lady in a white dress was walking back and forth on the top perimeter of the ditch. I don’t remember what she said or much else after that. When the teenage girl arrived back with help, she was suprised about something and asked me a question…I don’t even remember what it was but I answered “the lady”. She immediately told my Dad and his friends that there had been no one else there …only her. I was middle age before I recollected the incident and it occurred to me that it was possibly an angel. My Dad was already passed by that time, so I hunted down the babysitter to find out what really happened and she had no recollection of the incident whatsoever. However, I am convinced it was an angel. I have often pondered the thought of hypnosis to take me back to that moment to try to learn what she said to me and what she did to help me.

  77. yooperjack says:

    narrow: WOW!!!!!

  78. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… very interesting thought about the perceived Gender of Angels. I always thought that heaven is a place of neither slave or free, nor Jew or Gentile, nor man or women, (no sexual identification is needed to me) because Our God is no respecter of persons. But your having seen a visual gender *she* to be an Angelic Being, I do not doubt your seeing the Angel, or your hearing of no sound, or the perceived message that was delivered. Thanks for sharing that story; I’m sure many of us were blessed reading it.
    Now, addressed to All…
    My only issue here is with *Mary* mentioned as part of our forever impressed young minds with your Catholic Church upbringing. I wonder do we still project your Mary thoughts? Where some may see and speak about Mary in the kind and compassionate words from foreverblessed, I’m seeing only Christ living in her heart, instead. But, I wasn’t raised Worshiping Christ and Mary, so for that lack in me, please forgive any trespass you will find here, and try to see only the difference in my thinking. I’m not generating any “stupid argument for arguments sake,” just stating my position that differs from other’s.
    Where some may see Mary in others, I see Christ instead. Yes, I see the woman, the mother, the sister, the feminine in foreverblessed, but I do not see Mary. I do not see the Mother of Christ in anyone, I only see the Living Indwelling Christ in them, when they display a Christ-like persona. Just expressing my thoughts through the only “taught perspective” I have. I believe our upbringing has much to do with who and what we are, and how we speak today. In Christ Alone do I speak, not to offend a brother or anyone else, but only to defend my Faith in Christ alone.
    Just a strong thought about a “small point” shared here..
    Let’s hold captive, Christ Alone be the Center of our thoughts. Christ alone is Music to my ears, and bringing in other “songs of thought,” like playing our Mary tuned instruments, as our sister pooh stated, makes a directed symphony just become a bunch of noise. Sorry, if any of you see my thoughts as being just more noise. I do not want to be the Director, only inspired to be well taught, and then to be Directed! Gary

  79. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, just a thought, but maybe when angels are here on earth they take on a gender. Didn’t Lot say of the angels that had come to warn him that they were holy MEN of God? As to your thoughts on Mary, I may have missed something but I haven’t seen any reference to Mary as to correlate with the Catholic worship of her. If it was the referring of who I saw as “the lady”, then it is a misunderstanding. I was 3 yo and didn’t know ANYTHING about anything and if I did it wouldn’t have been anything about the Catholic religion as we were not Catholic. To me at the time girls or ladies were probably the only two words for female that I had in my vocabulary. However, I DID turn to Catholicism in later years for a brief period. As little as I knew about the Bible at the time, the mega worship of Mary seemed strange to me and served as the catylist that turned me away. So for what it is worth, I share your thoughts on that matter.

  80. poohpity says:

    A lot of musicians that have run amuke listening to a different conductor. The reference made to Mary earlier was the Mary that sat at Jesus feet while her sister Martha was to busy to listen to the Lord because she had things to do that kept her from learning what Jesus was teaching. Just as many listening to other authors and neglect what is written in scripture.

    Only thoughts that we allow to be held captive by our Lord will produce the desire to say or sing, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God almighty”

    As far as having free will in heaven when we have resurrected bodies things will be different than what they may look like now because Jesus taught in Mark 12 when presented with the questions about marriage said we will be different. Mark 12:24-25 NLT; Luke 20:35-36 NLT. Many can assume all day about many things but it may be wise just to consider what we have been given in the bible and not read more to it than there is.

  81. yooperjack says:

    Because you asked: Is Heaven going to be like an ant hive and we like ants? No- I think it will be more like a bee hive and we’ll be like bees. Bees have wings. The earth will be the hive Christ will be KING not a queen and the rest of us will take care of the earth. We will all have our jobs to do and we will worship the KING. We will do it His way not ours.

    Why didn’t He remove Free Will from the earth? Because His words are powerful and they can’t just be revoked, they are everlasting. But He did give the believer a new spirit and a new heart. We are a whole new creation in Christ Jesus. Also, if Jesus didn’t come then God would have had to destroy all of man kind.

    I don’t know why He let man populate the earth to the point it is? We don’t see the whole picture; maybe there will be a great revival after some event that will open the eyes of the blind sinners? Billions will turn to Jesus for salvation. Satan has already lost the battle, at Calvary, his followers may see the light when they see him for what he is a big fat liar.

    I think God has a quota to fill it may take a set amount of people to get the job done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
    God has it all worked out, His Word and plan for us are true.

  82. poohpity says:

    Eph 5:6-10 NIV

  83. yooperjack says:

    A blog is a place of ideas and opinions, we learn what others experience and think. It gets people to think outside of the box many are in. We could (just) quote scripture to one another all day but to me that would promote pride and would be very boring.

  84. yooperjack says:

    This is wierd I’m answering questions before I even see them. There is a Spirit working here.

  85. poohpity says:

    Quoting scripture is anything but pride full. It takes the persons eye off themselves and puts it on what the Lord teaches. After all where do we learn from, hopefully not another human being on the same journey, but from the Lord. Psalm 119:74,81,105; John 1:1

  86. oneg2dblu says:

    narrowpathseeker… thank you for your reply without retaliation or condemnation. I did not remember your lady reference so I was not speaking to that specifically. I do know that the named Angels I know of, as they were referenced in the Bible had male names, but never thought about the gender issue per se, other than perhaps the Patriarchal Godly order of the Trinity, the Family, and the Church as referenced in the Bible. I never spend too much time thinking about Angels, and maybe that is a shortfall of mine. I know they are there doing what they are sent to do, and in His Service, I believe they are very good at it. I know the fallen Angel is certainly known by many as well.
    I do not know why Mary sets of such a “red flag effect” on me, other than my past associations with Catholic friends that God has placed in my sphere of influence,
    and what they have shared with me about “their” Mary!
    I know it separates many of us who call ourselves Christian to the very core though, as we are not “taught” to Worship Mary. Gary

  87. poohpity says:

    Jack, maybe you missed what Mart wrote in the topic, “and why Paul urged the people of God to speak to one another in songs, hymns and spiritual songs (Eph 5:19) (Col 3:16).”

  88. yooperjack says:

    Poohpity: Read my 11:18am post again I put (just) like this for a reason. That’s where the wierdness comes in because you (JUST) used scripture 6 minutes before I posted.

    I’m starting to read your mind. LOL LOL DO DO DO DO DO DO.

  89. narrowpathseeker says:

    I think the bottom line in most matters is motive/intent. I believe scripture says that a man thinks he is right in his own eyes, but that God looks at the heart. Someone could kill someone accidently or intentionally. If intentionally, it could be in self defense, out of mercy because they were suffering, out of a temporary fit of rage over a misunderstanding, or out of pure long lived hatred. After the act there can be genuine remorse, no remorse, or feigned remorse. I think the motive/intent of quoting scripture may be of that same nature. There are countless reasons to do so and some of them are questionable at best. Only God knows the true state of our heart. I don’t know about anyone else but that is why I go to Psalm 51 often and then ask Him to “create in me a clean heart and to renew a right spirit in me”. Knowledge can puff us up or it can help us empty ourselves. For me it seems to be a continual cycle, except as the years go by I puff a little less so the emptying doesn’t take quite as long.

  90. yooperjack says:

    narrow: The older I get I seem to be puffing more, when I climb those steps and my middle section is getting puffed up as well, it in a winter cycle now. LOL I’ll have to walk it off in the spring.

    Just for laughs.

  91. poohpity says:

    People can misunderstand another’s intent but after knowing them awhile you can see whether someone is pointing people to Christ or to their own knowledge or philosophies. My desire is, as those who have known me for awhile know, that I do not want people to listen to me but to listen to God and read God’s Word. Always compare what someone says to scripture.

    Paul teaches in Col 2:6-10;
    6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. 7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.

    8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

  92. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, in regard to your comment to my reply “without retaliation or condemnation” my very first concern was whether I had done that to you or someone else here in the past. If I came across as doing so, I don’t think it was my intent….sometimes(ok lots of times) I say things off the top of my head without thinking of how others may receive it. I am sorry if I did that to you somewhere down the line.

  93. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, I agree that we can ALL misunderstand the intent of others(bad for good and good for bad), but God never misunderstands our intent and He is the only One that really counts.

    Jack, I know all too well about the physical aspects of puffin’ up as well. When I first get back outside in the Spring, I can’t push the wheelbarrow more than 50 feet or so without stopping to rest and that’s when it’s empty… lol

  94. oneg2dblu says:

    narrow… you were posting as I was writing so I never saw your post until after. My delay was do to cleaning up a large container of thick blueberry protien drink I make and managed to spill on my keyboard. Of course, in my attempt to pick it up as fast as I could, to stop the flow, I also fumbled it around spreading the mess everywhere! Clean up on Isle One… Two, and Three!
    Two soaked bath towels later and some time on my knees proved to be most helpful. It always does! :)

  95. oneg2dblu says:

    Sticky Music and a Sticky Keyboard seem to be lurking in my near future.

  96. SFDBWV says:

    Gary, I am sorry for not being clear in my reference of *Mary* I am speaking of Martha’s sister who chose worship over work (Luke 10: 38-42).

    I was raised up in a Brethren Church, as well as Methodist, and the Church of God.

    Being a Christian first and a denomination last, I find aspects of many denominations to be of interest as well as confusing so I seek out the things that may have merit and explore them from the scripture as well as from guidance of the Holy Spirit. In this way I find common ground on some, conflict from some and unanswered issues along the way.

    Angels are neither men nor women, they are angels and so visit us both unaware and in startling reality, if you ever encounter such a visit, you will as have Narrowpathseeker and Jackie and myself you will doubt yourself at first but enlightenment comes and then you know the experience was real.

    Steve

  97. foreverblessed says:

    Steve and Narrow, too many compliments, give credit to Jesus, who changes our hearts. looking at the positive things is much better then all the negative. That’s why praising God is so good.
    I was not such a positive person, would look first to what is wrong. A church which pointed at being perfect, I thought the way to be perfect is to look at what is not perfect, and then mend it. Yes, yes, how wrong you could be?
    But doesn’t 1 Corinthians 13:4-5,6-7 say a lot about looking at the best? Long way to learn that, so long, but at least we are on our way in following Jesus, get going behind Him.

  98. poohpity says:

    Yes narrow God is the only one who truly knows our hearts, our motives and our intent, so NO one can foul Him even if they can foul others. We are to lead others to Him that is the job of every believer given in the Great Commission and with a heart, intent and motive of giving thanks and adoration for all that He has done.

    One thing we all have in common is that our understanding is finite and to admit we do not know it all nor have all the answers. It would be nice to preface our thoughts and words with; as I understand it, it seems, it could be possible, so we do not lead people down wrong paths by speaking as if what we each say is the gospel without error or doubt.

  99. poohpity says:

    Amen foreverblessed and Phil 4:8-9. I have been blessed to see the changes in you and give thanks to God and knowing that you are rooted in His love.

    We all fall down, I know my knees are so skinned up and my hips are bruised, but God is faithful and those who love us help us up while brushing us off to start fresh every morning. That is one things all God’s saints have in common we fall down like that song, “We Fall Down” by Bob Carlisle

    Cursing every step of the Way, he bore a heavy load
    To the market ten miles away, The journey took its toll
    And every day he passed a Monastery’s high cathedral Walls
    And it made his life seem Meaningless and small

    And he wondered how it would Be to live in such a place
    To be warm, well fed and at Peace; to shut the world away

    So when he saw a priest who Walked, for once, beyond the Iron gate
    He said, Tell me of your life Inside the place…
    And the priest replied…

    We fall down, we get up
    We fall down, we get up
    We fall down, we get up
    And the saints are just the Sinners
    Who fall down and get up

    Disappointment followed him Home; he’d hoped for so much More
    But he saw himself in a light He had never seen before

    Cause if the priest who fell Could find the Grace of God To be enough
    Then there must be some hope For the rest of us
    There must be some hope left For us

    We fall down, we get up
    We fall down, we get up
    We fall down, we get up
    And the saints are just the Sinners
    Who fall down and get up

  100. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, so sorry about your little mishap. At least you can find a little humor in it. I used to get very upset over things like that and never thought I would see the day that I would be almost immediately grateful it wasn’t something far worse. It only took me about 60 years!

    Foreverblessed, you are right.. Thanks be to God for making you a blessing to so many.

    Pooh, believe it or not, I had written something more in line with the manner you suggested, but when I reconstructed a sentence I deleted it all and started over. I saw AFTER I had already posted that I had deleted the “I think..s and a “I think you will probably agree that”. I thought about reposting with an added note, but didn’t. When I read your message I smiled and realized I should have reposted when I saw that it sounded a little short.

  101. yooperjack says:

    Steve: I like that statement angels are neither men nor woman they are angels. My problem has always been because there is no mention of female angels in the Bible there must not be any. Our perception of what a male or female looks like is what gets us in error. Remember in the 50s when you could tell the difference between girls and boys? We where driving down the expressway and seen this driver from behind with the most beautiful long blond hair. I thought, she must be beautiful; I pulled along side and (she) had a nice blond beard as well. LOL

    Back to angels, it makes sense if an angel wanted to help a 3 year old girl they wouldn’t appear as anything but a nice lady so as to not scare the little girl. I guess angels could be whatever we needed to perceive them to be at any certain time. Many times in the Bible they say: “fear not” I am here to……

    I guess I can put that question to rest, see how we can learn from one another. We just need to read a post with an open mind, and let the Spirit guide us into understanding.

  102. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh..your, “fall down/get up” message was a blessing..it runs in line of what I referred to as my continual cycle of getting puffed up and getting emptied. It helped me to see that I may not be as far off course as I sometimes think. Thank you…I am UP for now.

  103. narrowpathseeker says:

    Jack..Wow…good point about angels appearing in a way as not to frighten the one they are visiting. I never thought about that, but I definitely was not scared and I had a bump on my little head as big as a goose egg. Today just the fall would compel a trip to the ER. Back then we didn’t see a doctor unless we were dying or the bleeding wouldn’t stop..I never even saw a doctor for that giant egg.

    I also think you are right about the Spirit working here. It appears to me that EVERYONE here is UP!!!!No one Down….praise God ..

  104. poohpity says:

    It seems there is only one place in scripture that shows that angels maybe asexual in Matthew 22:30. Other places they seem to have more of a masculine reference by their names or pronouns used to describe such as Gabriel (Dan 8:15-17; Dan 9:20-21; Luke 1:19,26), Michael(Dan 10:13, 21; Dan 12:1; Jude 1:9; Rev 12:7) and satan (1 Chron 21:1; 2 Cor 11:14). Have not read about any female angels but that does not mean there aren’t any because the bible says at anytime we could be entertaining an angel. Isn’t it wonderful to know that God has messengers to let us know things no matter if they have a gender or not, lol. I have heard but do not how true it is that we have angels around us all the time to help us, like I said I do not know if that is true.

  105. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart and Friends –

    The Word of God is so many things: a foundation, inspiration, our Savior, an anchor of hope – perhaps I forget sometimes it is also information that transforms minds, hearts and lives.

    You wrote:
    “…am wondering whether there’s something about ‘sticky music’ (that) has anything to do with why the songs of Israel make up the largest book of the Bible (Psalms 1-150); and why Paul urged the people of God to speak to one another in songs, hymns and spiritual songs (Eph 5:19) (Col 3:16).”

    I heard a presentation last week that stated we should think of food as information. Somehow, our bodies are shaped and made to perform in certain ways according to the quality of what we consume. I wonder, thinking about “sticky music,” whether we do not grow and develop according to the amount and quality of the words, thoughts and ideas that enter our hearts and minds. I am no expert in communication theory, but I believe there is a vast difference between the grace inherent in God’s word – and the grace (or even the “degradation”) we take in from what we communicate. Any source shapes our interior life. What happens when heavenly songs stick in our memories?

    Blessings,
    Maru

  106. SFDBWV says:

    I am certain RBC has literature on angels, but Billy Graham wrote an excellent book simply titled “Angels” years ago and is a superb read on the subject.

    The concept that angels are masculine comes from the words associated with them, same as when we read of God the *Father* and the masculine word forms used in association with *Him*. I find it very interesting that when Abraham was visited by the three *men* at Mamre (Genesis 18: 1-33) the Lord was with them and that somehow Abraham recognized Him to be the Lord. Also that Abraham offered to wash the Lords feet (Genesis 18: 4).

    We are divided from creation to be either male or female (Genesis 1: 27) made in the image of God. When we marry we are united in such a way as to complete and remerge from that divided nature back into being one. (Ephesians 5: 31)

    I can learn from that, that God is both masculine and feminine, I can learn from Jesus that beyond that separation from this world to the spirit world and even after the resurrection that *we* are children of God and *equal* to angels and that gender seems to no longer be of importance (Luke 20: 34-38).

    The purpose of angels in our lives are to minister to us (Hebrews 1: 14). They serve God and so serve the children of God to who are heirs of salvation.

    Not to be worshiped, ever.

    Steve

  107. yooperjack says:

    Maru: Have you heard the turm “garbage in garbage out” the stuff we watch on TV, the music we listen to all affect us in a good or bad way. Your right we can grow spiritualy by filling our minds with spiritual food.

  108. foreverblessed says:

    Steve, thank you for bringing in that God is both male and female, we often forget that, because we speak of God our Father.
    Didn’t God say He made mankind is His image, male and female, so both sides are an image of Him.
    The way mothers care for their children, which is often a different care then fathers have, that is a tiny reflection of God’s tender care for us. It is funny that we do not say: the motherly care of God for us, as mothers do so much for their children, all the little details, all their well being from morning into the evening, and even in the night if they need help. Whilst the fathers are outside the home making a living for the family (I speak in traditional terms here), as many do not have it like this. But through all the ages the mothers were ate home, and taking care of the little ones, so does God take care of us, as His little ones, all the pretty little details, all of it, He wants us to share it with Him: Put all your cares upon Jesus, all of them, even the little silly things,which we think are not important enough.
    Have you ever said to your little child, don’t mind, that is not important in the grands scale of human things? No, with all their questions, things they came with, you gave them attention, and hugged them. That’s how God thinks of us too. (just talking away on a bright sunshiny sunday afternoon)

  109. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day…Thinking about Angels… God sends us just the right ones, and at just the right times.
    Whether they are portrayed as actual people in our lives, strangers or even DISTANT sighted beings, their purpose is always perfectly given, and they are His.
    I love the thought that at times they even dance over us. WOW! Thanks to all your contrbutions, perhaps we each have already been visited by one today! Gary

  110. poohpity says:

    I bet, although can not say for sure, that Billy Graham gets his information from the same book we all have available to us, The Bible.

  111. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… sorry I did not pick up on the specific Mary you were sighting, but a re-read, some kind prodding by others, and your explanation all helped much. Oh, you meant “that” Mary!!! I guess I was ordering off the kid’s menu when I spoke. Thanks for helping clean up my mess! :0

  112. oneg2dblu says:

    Stevev.. I would think that when God created us in His Image the sexual part was not part of that image but he created sex as a way for us to mlutiply and fill the earth, where He would ob only have to speak to accomplish such.. \ =\\\\ DS Sorry about the extra mess but U I can not backspace anymore the key is now stuck!!! :(

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