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Bargaining with God

DSC00610When Jacob left home to avoid being killed by his furious brother, the Lord appeared to him in a dream and assured him that he would be with him on the road ahead; that he would protect him, and provide for him; until safely bringing him back again to the homeland he was leaving behind (Gen 28:15).

Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the Lord [the God of his father and grandfather] will be my God…” (Gen 28:20-22).

Apart from this text, my family tells the story of a grandfather who bargained with the LORD from his deathbed, saying that, if God restored his health, he would return from his prodigal ways and serve him. When he was given his health, he kept his end of the deal.

Seems to me this text gives us a good chance to think together about how we read the Scripture and apply it to ourselves.


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71 Responses to “Bargaining with God”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Just last evening I listened to teaching on promises, the speaker reminded me that whereas men make many promises only God is faithful in all of His.

    In this I am forever encouraged as when you read of the promises God gives us; number one is “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” (Hebrews 13:5) Another one is “Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen the; yea, I will help thee; yea’ I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.” (Isaiah 41:10)

    Interesting that in Matthew 5:33, 34 Jesus instructs us not to swear at all, so I looked up the difference between an oath and swearing and came up with it meaning the same thing in the Concordance.

    In an earlier topic we spoke of genetics; when I was in high school biology class we learned that we are closer to our grandparents than or parents genetically. I don’t fully understand that, but it is what we were taught.

    Mart you were handed a burden at birth, one you have taken on from what little I know of you admirably.

    It can’t be easy to feel that you have an obligation to continue your grandfather’s legacy, but you have done well.

    The story of Jacob making a deal and I suppose any of us in doing so makes me feel a little uncomfortable. What happens if we ask God for a particular outcome based on the condition we will accept Him as God and don’t get what we want?

    What then?

    I deal with every day with Matthew torn between believing God cares and believing God does nothing for him. I hear it multiple times a day, yet every day he and I pray together for a better outcome then what he feels he suffers.

    I think Jesus has it right, don’t try to make an oath or deal with God as we can’t guarantee our end of any bargain, only God is able to make guarantees, so we need be content with His will whether we know it or not whether we get what we want or not and *trust* it all to God.

    Steve

  2. foreverblessed says:

    Bargaining with God?
    I agree Steve, to be content with God’s will. If only we would get what God’s will is, as Jacob at that time didn’t get it:
    God had just promised him a glorious future, for him for his offspring and through them for the whole world.
    If Jacob had really listened, he would have been stunned, but no, instead, he asks for very mundane things: clothing, food and shelter.

    What to do with this passage: asking myself how much God is promising me, and how little I get it, instead worry about the things of this world, things that directly influences me now.
    Asking God to open my mind to what He promised already and for more faith in knowing that what He promised He will do.
    Rom 5:17
    this verse promises me that I will reign as a king in this life through Jesus, reign over all things that are evil, and will overcome it.
    Paul must have been inspired by: Job 36:7
    Not reign as people of this world, but reign in the spiritual sense: the good that overcomes evil.

  3. Mart De Haan says:

    Good morning, Steve. Thanks for getting us going with the kind of truths we can all rightly hang on to. This is one of those subjects that shows the difference between what the Bible “describes and prescribes” (i.e. reports vs. recommends).

  4. bubbles says:

    Steve~ How would it be best to pray for Matt? Is there something specific we can pray about? When I pray I ask the Lord to encourage him. I want to help.

  5. bubbles says:

    I have heard it said many times not to bargain with God, or to make promises out of desperation because we will not keep them.

    One of good intentions makes promises, but one of good character keeps them. It is disappointing and hurtful to have a promise not kept, and I would be afraid to make such a promise for fear I could or would not keep it.

    Isn’t there danger in doing this?

  6. fadingman says:

    When you take what Jacob said by itself, it appears he was bargaining for God’s blessing. But when read in context, if he was bargaining, then he was expressing some reservations as to God’s intentions for him.

    Jacob made his vow after God told him, “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land. For I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” (Genesis 28:15). God had already said what He was going to do. It was a sure thing. Jacob just repeated it in an “If…” form.

    I don’t know if Jacob was trying to bargain (make a contract) with God, or if he fully believed and was expressing his response when the promise would be fulfilled.

    I’m not saying bargaining is bad, but I don’t think this is a good example of it.

    Andrew

  7. swwagner says:

    It is a wonderful thing to be able to approach the God of heaven and lay out our fears, needs, and even our wants and ask that they be granted.

    We are to approach God “boldly” the Bible says…not with disrespect, but with humility…knowing that we can not supply our own needs. We can not supply our own salvation or even the air we breathe. God invites us to come…His arms are open and “His Face” is toward us.

    The example prayer that Jesus prayed asks for “daily bread”. God is interested in our safety and well being.

    I use to try to trick God by praying that I needed “such and such” for my family, etc. so as not to admit my own needs. Every time, God would haul me up short by reminding me that He knew my heart, the need, and the situation. So, I learned to simply pray, “Lord, I need $150.00 to pay the bills…or I need groceries for the rest of the week…or I am afraid, please protect me. Even in my glaring failures and sin, He forgave me and blessed me…and He still does.

    God doesn’t give me everything I ask for (thank you Lord!) but He listens and cares and comforts and provides peace. Many times He has supplied my physical needs in very unexpected ways. He is Abba Father!

    Now, as far as promising God anything in return for His mercy and grace toward me…I don’t do it. As a young Christian, I tried that a few times, but fell flat on my face. As an older Christian, I know that everything I have, has come from God in the first place. I can’t give Him anything in exchange for His blessings, any more than I can give Him something to earn salvation.

    However, in His strength, I am able to give myself and my possessions back to Him in service…inadequate as that is. All I can do is hold Him up to my neighbors, and family and tell what He has done for me. My prayer is to be an instrument to unite the estranged…those that are estranged from their families…and those who are estranged from God (as I once was).

    On a personal note to Mart, I know what it is like to try to carry on a family mission…and to grow weary of it. As I grow older, God has graciously removed some of the responsibility from my shoulders. Some of those duties have not been taken up by the younger generation so I suppose they will go by the wayside. At first, I was devastated that things would not “carry on” but now I have peace that God may have something else in mind.

  8. bubbles says:

    I thought the word “if” in Scripture had the connotation of “since”.

  9. poohpity says:

    It seems that God already had a plan in mind for Jacob before he was even born. God seemed to allow Jacob to go on in his rebellious, selfish, and deceitful manor until Jacob came to a place of trust. It looks like that time you mention Mart was the beginning of Jacob getting to know God maybe just like the story of a grandfather that you mentioned. It was the beginning of a relationship of trust.

    I think once we have that desire to know God through what the bible tells us and applying it to our lives we can see that bargaining with God is not something we do, I think rather we just ask then become satisfied with the answer.(2 Cor 12:7-9 NIV) It seems sort of like trying to manipulate God to do what we want which at times has caused some to make rash vows like what happened to Jephthah in Judges 11:31-35 NIV.

  10. poohpity says:

    24 years ago when I was so overwhelmed with my addictions I went into a church and prayed for God to help me because I had tried many time before to get off drugs and alcohol and failed. I did not want to lose my children but I did not bargain I just asked for help in my broken state with no promises just a desire to change. God gave me so much more than just freedom from addiction He gave me a desire to get to know Him. No promises on my part just a broken humiliated person needing a touch from the Master. Now I have so many thorns in my flesh and each time I feel cocky they pick me back to dependence and trust in the One who saved me.

  11. poohpity says:

    It looks like Jacob still did not trust God during his stay with Laban until the return trip when he found himself in the same place as when he was fleeing before when God gave him his new name from the deceiver to one who talks/walks with God. Genesis 35:7 NIV

  12. poohpity says:

    Mart, was that grandfather a member of your family or just a story about a grandfather?

  13. swwagner says:

    Bubbles
    It is my understanding as well that “if” does mean “since”.

    Sheryl

  14. Mart De Haan says:

    poohpity,
    I was referring to my grandfather, M.R. DeHaan, who was at the time far from the Lord, a practicing family doctor, in his thirties– and who had contracted a blood infection while treating a patient. He ended up in the hospital in a critical condition.

    My point is not to encourage bargaining with the Lord– especially when we are trying to pull something out of him. Thankfully, though, as so many of us have found, it is not beneath his honor to mercifully stoop to our level in order to draw us to himself.

  15. poohpity says:

    Wow, says a lot about the character of your grandfather. Seems to run in the family. :-)

    I am so thankful for that mercy as well that draws us to Him.

  16. poohpity says:

    It would be nice to be as faithful to God as He is to us!

  17. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh.. you mention a very moving story about Japthah, it brings me to tears to read it, and also how his daughter reacted to tell her father not to be concerned for her for she would gladly accept her end of the oath to honor her father’s word, but only asked for a short leave to spend some time with her friends before giving up her life so her father could honor the Lord with his oath. Amazing story of the walk of faith and how God can justfully take even the life of an innocent to bring His word to pass, and yet in another case he tells King Hezekiah 20:1-6 that his illness will result in death and when the the king heard this message
    he turns his fsce to the wall and prays his heart out, God sends him a message that He has heard his prayers and will extend his life instead, for another fifteen years. Talk about an extreme turn of events when God sees the heart and does not give us what we deserve.
    Yet with David, a man clearly having a heart after God, God does not let him off the hook for his sin and takes his child from him. So many different results from a loving God a the resulting absolute justice He will and can use as He sees fit.
    Mankind would certainly not find for any us that same justice, mercy, forgiveness, or love applied to others, as God who is always found to be justly and unconditionally loving us.
    We do not have yet the answers, but God does!
    He knows our end long before we see our beginning. Psalm 139 speaks volumes to that accounting. Gary

  18. artle says:

    Greetings All (though I’m not sure who All might be),

    I’ve been reading thru several of the previous posts and comments. Interesting stuff that y’all been thinking.

    Felt like, for some reason, I should make my presence known instead of just sneaking in and sitting at the back of the room.

    Have a lot of thoughts and not sure how well I can get them on paper. For me, God is everything and has no limitations; like Paul says of himself in 1 Corinthians 9:22, I also believe God is “all things to all men”; Father, Mother, Brother, Friend, Bargainer and the list goes on and on forever with no limitations.

    Jacob had already been chosen and the promise from God given with no strings attached. I believe we could say that Grandfather DeHaan had already been chosen. Perhaps in both cases a decision was made to accept the promise given resulting in a vow that was already fulfilled; more like a Yes Lord moment than a swearing by heaven or earth.

  19. poohpity says:

    artie, wonderful addition. Glad you came into the discussion rather than sitting at the back of the room.

    Gary, I am not real sure that Jephthah actually burnt his daughter that seemed to be an evil pagan practice in those times and considered murder which was against God’s laws or had her remain unmarried and dedicated to the Lord in service the rest of her life like the first nun since marriage was such a blessing for the family to carry on the linage. I just really do not know for sure but I would like to think the later.

  20. Loomis says:

    Jacob was reacting to a real fear. It is good to be able to talk to God even when we haven’t crossed our T’s and doted our I’s. God will answer yes and no, but I believe He has our best interest in heart.

  21. SFDBWV says:

    I enjoyed Mart’s terms of “describes, prescribes (i.e. reports vs. recommends) in reference to stories or events in Scripture.

    How very true as every story teaches from all angles and reveals God in the doing.

    2 Timothy 3:16 states that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” 2 Timothy 3:17 further states “That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

    This is what we try and do here; look at an event or story from Scripture along with comments from Mart and see then how differently we all see the same thing and how we all differently take some pearls of wisdom from them.

    Like a treasure chest filled with gems each story has many different gems and coins from which we can all be profited by.

    If we had the aid of hearing instead of reading this particular event of God and Jacob, how very differently we would perceive each and every word.

    Both Bubbles and Sheryl seen the word “if” as “since”; in that view the recorded statement changes the significance of the message.

    So if you read it then as since instead of if, it puts the lead in God’s previous statement as explained by Andrew in that God told Jacob what His intentions are and Jacob chimed in with a “well then since you are going to take care of my every need along the way I will as my fathers have proclaimed, declare you also as my God!”

    A simple “thank you” would have erased any confusion.

    However elsewhere in Scripture it is recorded where God made bargains and men repeatedly failed to live up to them, always with dire circumstances; only Jesus was able to fulfill the bargain without failure at the cross. A bargain God made with Himself.

    Steve

  22. cbrown says:

    Mart,I thank God for what he has done through your grandfather and his descendants .This morning I got up put a pot of coffee on, took the dog outside and then set down and had my morning devotional.The “Daily Bread” was on road construction and “My Utmost For His Highest” was directed toward sanctification.Since I am ground under construction the 2 messages were very appropriate.After weeping over what God is doing in my life I went and blew my nose and opened your blog.The messages seemed to fit with the topic today.
    I am not gifted in written communications so I only occasionally participate by posting but I am always blessed by what people share here.Sometimes I look at the subject of a particular discussion and wonder where it is going but inevitably it leads to the Lord. Praise God!

  23. plumbape says:

    Just have time to say the ape is back and much better which is due to the Lord and this web site! Will talk more later. May God keep blessing You all. Michael

  24. SFDBWV says:

    Hello Mike, glad you see you sounding “up”.

    Greetings Artle, glad to have you abord.

    Steve

  25. poohpity says:

    Keeping our end of the deal? I wonder if there is not some confusion as to what that looks like. When one feels let down by not having something answered the way they think it should be answered if the problem may be that they turn to all other things rather than God. Jacob seemed to turn to his own wiles then had those wiles turned on him from Laban before he turned it all over to God.

    Bargaining with God seems to come from a heart of desperation rather than contentment. Applying scripture to our lives we can see how many times the people went to everything else but God to solve their problems but as Isaiah shared his conversations with God,(Isaiah 30:15 NIV; Isaiah 30:18 NIV) he shared how God wants to be our everything but if we feel let down by God one tends to turn away. God told Hosea to take on an adulterous wife just to show Israel how they turn from dependence on God (Hosea 1:2 NIV) to dependence on everything else again. So if we apply that to now we see that same example in our everyday life over and over again until hopefully one day we find our treasure, hope, security even when our prayers are not answered the way we would like but God’s way we find are best. (Isaiah 33:6 NIV; Isaiah 33:22 NIV) Then no more bargains but trust.

    Indy ape, howdy hoe neighbor! You and your humor was greatly missed. Glad to hear you are doing better.

  26. poohpity says:

    Mart, your grandfather seemed to realize that he had something to offer God in service because he was a doctor unlike me I had nothing to offer and still feel that way.

  27. poohpity says:

    I had no bargaining chips to bargain with just a very broken person who felt so worthless. I know now that I am not worthless but I wonder how many come to God with nothing to offer to be spared from death or healed from sickness but a heart and longing to know our Lord and Savior. God does wonders with whatever we come to Him with or that we are in, making us feel whole while our bodies/tents are being destroyed.

  28. swwagner says:

    No one has anything to offer God…we are all broken and in need of a Savior. Some of us are like the publican who smote his breast and asked God to be merciful. Some of us are like the proud Pharisee who feels he is doing God a favor just by being born. There are millions for personal situations…all blind, until God opens our eyes.

    God has His own ways of dealing with each of us. God has put things on my heart that I have tried to ignore. God has called me out of my sin, but I don’t budge. After awhile, He gets my attention with something I don’t like…and then I follow and obey (i.e. Jonah and the fish). How sad that I don’t always obey at the first prod from the Holy Spirit.

  29. poohpity says:

    Don’t our hearts count as something to offer God?

  30. swwagner says:

    God does accept the sacrifice of our lives and hearts as we forsake all to follow Him in service. However, we have nothing to offer to gain salvation.

    I appreciate all of the points of view that are presented in this Blog on all of the topics. It is a blessing to ponder and dig into scriptures as we all try to walk more accurately in His footsteps. Please forgive me if I have hurt anyone. Thank you so much for helping me learn and grow.

    Sheryl

  31. BruceC says:

    How does a person bargain with the One who has known the outcome of the bargain since eternity past?

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  32. SFDBWV says:

    In Malachi 3:10 God asks us to prove Him, no where else in Scripture that I know of does God go to the point of saying it is ok to test what He is saying.

    Though all throughout Scripture God asks us to *believe* Him and have the faith to see what He says to be true; a testing of our trusting Him. (Psalms 46:10)

    In Matthew 4:7 Jesus states it is written thou shall not *tempt* the Lord thy God.

    In the Concordance both words temp and prove come out as meaning the same thing in the sense of putting something or someone to the test.

    However depending how these words are used seems to be the difference.

    If (pun intended) we come to believe that this exchange between God and Jacob was only a matter of God telling Jacob what He would do for Jacob and Jacob repeating it. Then why has God put this verse of Scripture in the Book for us to ponder?

    I believe it is because written as it is because it is an agreement between God and Jacob and Jacob and God.

    A covenant!

    What covenant exists between each of us and God? Is there a difference between a compact and a commitment?

    We each of us who proclaim Jesus as Lord, have made a choice to believe and accept Jesus as Lord, but what commitment have we entered into and what compact or agreement have we made with God concerning this choice?

    I think there is more to discuss here and more to ponder.

    Steve

  33. SFDBWV says:

    Another successful man of God I read of was Kenneth Hagin Sr. His testimony was similar to Mart’s grandfather in that it came from a sick bed.

    Pastor Hagin was a small sickly child and the doctors had told his mother he would not survive, but Kenneth says in his testimony that as he lay bedfast, too weak to get up, he remembered his grandmothers Methodist Bible and believed the promises Jesus made concerning healing and so Kenneth refused to believe the doctors and believed Jesus. The result is that he not only recovered from what the doctors thought of as an incurable weak heart but lived a good long life of ministry to the *full* Gospel of Christ.

    What do our prayers sound like? Have you ever gotten upset with God because you didn’t get what you prayed for? When you got upset did you try to trap God into giving you what you want by quoting Scripture promises to Him? Have you never tried to bargain with Him?

    I’ll wager that somewhere in your walk with God you have tried every idea in your mind to convince God to give you your hearts desires.

    Odd that in Psalms 37:4 God tells us He shall give us the desires of our hearts.

    So then what is missing when we seem not to get “the desires of thine heart”?

    Is it because as we grow in God, we learn His desires, His will become our desires and our will?

    Or is it because we don’t make a covenant with God concerning our faith?

    Is it because inwardly we don’t really believe God will deliver and so side step the issue, and avoid disappointment?

    As I understand Mart’s comments his Grandfather made a deal with God and God delivered. It seems that Marts grandfather also delivered on his agreement, I am certain with a lot of help from God.

    I would suppose each time we enter into prayer with God we *boldly* enter into His presence, but then humbly acknowledge His power and place, all the while letting our requests be known to Him by our voicing them (Philippians 4:4, 5, 6, 7); surrendering our will over to God, but all the while secretly hoping for our personal requests to be met by the same God we surrender to.

    It would appear God wants a relationship with each of us and each of us has different needs that God is able to meet (Ephesians 3:20).

    Clearly we can not bargain for our salvation, so what is it we bargain for?

    Odd isn’t it that even our eternal salvation, freely given, isn’t all we want.

    Steve

  34. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, you asked, “Is it because as we grow in God, we learn His desires, His will become our desires and our will?”

    I think that may be a very big part of it. I sometimes reflect on the many things I desired and prayed for in years past and how I felt so rejected and I even related somewhat to Esau. One time when I was so despondent that I got on my knees and asked Him, “What did I do? What do you WANT from me?!! Why don’t you just kill me and stop torturing me!?”… I don’t really remember all the exact words that I used, but that was the nature of it, but I DO remember clearly that I asked “What do you want from me!?”

    At that time I was working third shift and needed to get some sleep b4 my shift began. They had also just installed cable for a free trial at the apt complex where I was living at the time. A strange feeling came over me, somewhat dazed, numb? I really can’t recall, but I seeming floated back to the living room instead of crawling into bed.. I turned on the TV for reasons unknown at the time…The first thing I saw and heard was Charles Stanley(had never heard of him b4 this) tapping his fist to emphasize each word… “If you want to know the will of God, you’ve got to be obedient”

    As I look back over my many defeats AND victories in my ensuing attempts to be obedient, I see clearly how my desires changed to the extent that I NOW, often THANK HIM for NOT fulfilling my desires that made me feel so unloved back then. Now I see clearly how disastrous those desires fulfilled would have been.

    Still, I tend to FORGET so many lessons learned over the years. Thank you Steve, for being His vessel to Remind me of that.

    Pearl

  35. poohpity says:

    Steve, I think Gideon in Judges 6:36-40 NIV and Hezekiah in 2 Kings 20:8-11 NIV tested what God said. Hope that helps.

  36. poohpity says:

    In the NT Jesus seemed to handle also the doubt of Thomas when he asked for a sign in John 20:25-29 NIV. I think God knows at times we have trouble in our faith and if we are honest with Him about He works with us to help it grow.

  37. poohpity says:

    Mart came to the conclusion, “Seems to me this text gives us a good chance to think together about how we read the Scripture and apply it to ourselves.” I know the many and I mean many times that I have felt like something was really amuk with my relationship with God in some way, shape or form but the Scriptures seem to always have someone who went through what I am going through and so very many areas where I have found comfort in not being alone and it applies to me too. People seem to have been the same since forever and there is so much in the Bible we can find aha moments in our relationship with God.

  38. poohpity says:

    It seems there are some promises of God that are just promised that no matter what He will fulfill but some of those promises seem to be; if we then He will. Like that Psalm 37:4 verse “if” we delight ourselves in the Lord then He will give us the desires of our heart. I think that “if” says a lot. It seems when we have put God first in our lives our desires are more in line with His desire and the ability to understand no matter what circumstance we find in our life we will be content with how God makes a choice to answer our requests.

  39. poohpity says:

    I remember the story of the “Two Traveling Angels”;
    Two traveling angels stopped to spend the night in the home of a wealthy family. The family was rude and refused to let the angels stay in the mansion’s guest room. Instead the angels were given a space in the cold basement. As they made their bed on the hard floor, the older angel saw a hole on the wall and repaired it. When the younger angel asked why, the older angel replied…”Things aren’t always what they seem”.

    The next night the pair came to rest at the house of a very poor, but very hospitable farmer and his wife. After sharing what little food they had the couple let the angels sleep in their bed where they could have a good night’s rest.

    When the sun came up the next morning the angels found the farmer and his wife in tears. Their only cow, whose milk had been the their sole income, lay dead in the field. The younger angel was infuriated and asked the older angel “how could you have let this happen!? The first man had everything, yet you helped him,” she accused. “The second family had little but was willing to share everything, and you let their cow die.”

    “Things aren’t always what they seem,” the older angel replied. “When we stayed in the basement of the mansion, I noticed there was gold stored in the wall. Since the owner was so obsessed with greed and unwilling to share his good fortune, I sealed the wall so he wouldn’t find it. Then last night as we slept in the farmers bed, the angel of death came for his wife. I gave her the cow instead. Things aren’t what they seem.” Sometimes that’s exactly what happens when things don’t turn out the way we think they should.

    If you have faith, you just need to trust that every outcome is always to your advantage. You might not know it until sometime later.

  40. poohpity says:

    Think of the families of our military who’s sons, brothers, daughters, fathers, mothers and sisters come back without arms or legs and some times both are gone but those families are so happy just to have them back just like they are. The struggles they face may seem severe but it seems more times than not they are just happy they made it home.

  41. artle says:

    Some good thinking.

    Took me a while to think “about how we read the Scripture and apply it to ourselves”. While reading thru everyone’s thinking and rereading the text, it came to me that Jacobs vow almost sounds like he was talking to himself. So, can I make this vow to myself?

    If (Since) God will be with me (for thou art with me; Psalm 23) and will watch over me (Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps; Job 31) on this journey I am taking (life) and will give me food to eat (behold the fowls of the air; Matthew 6) and clothes to wear (consider the lilies of the field; Matthew 6) so that I return safely (hairs of my head; Matthew 10) to my father’s household (of many mansions; John 14), then the Lord will be my God.

  42. swwagner says:

    Artle, This gives me a new way to think about Jacob’s conversation. It is always refreshing to find another perspective to consider.

  43. SFDBWV says:

    One of the images I can’t get out of my mind is the mummified remains of a young Incan girl wrapped up in her ceremonial garb, with her head bashed in; a sacrifice to their “god”.

    All over the globe you see such evidence of people trying to bargain with their “”gods” in an attempt to get what they wanted.

    If you wish to discuss the God of our Bible in terms of “deal making”, then you will look at events from that angle or view whether skewed or accurate it will be as you want to perceive it.

    In the Garden God made Adam a deal, you can have it all just don’t eat of the tree I have forbidden you to eat from. All Adam had to do was live up to his end of the bargain and he could have it all. The deal breaker was disobedience the result, lose it all.

    Adam had not part in the bargaining as it was God who made the deal, yet once on the scene it was up to Adam to live up to his end of the agreement if there was even an agreement in place.

    God made a deal with Noah, Noah came through and as a result all of his family was saved. Once again God made the deal, this time there was a mutual agreement in place.

    God made a deal with Abraham, once again it was God who initiated the bargain and Abraham stumbled his way through the deal with a lot of help and prodding from God.

    Isaac and Jacob inherited the deal Abraham had with God though each one had their agreements in place from God, God showed patience, forgiveness and longsuffering in getting the agreements to partial completion in the lifetimes of each.

    Interesting that it was an un-named servant of Abraham who sought out God to intervene on Abraham’s behalf for “the proper wife” for Isaac.

    This effort from the servant shows that a simple prayer can almost sound like a bargain.

    How often do we pray for direction, and how it is we present our view of how we will know the *sign* God has given?

    After all a bargain has to have two parties, and in a case of bargaining with God, neither partner can be *silent*

    So we look for signs.

    Jesus told the elders of Israel there would be no sign except the cross.

    Paul says the sign of the Holy Spirit in us are the gifts and fruit of the Spirit.

    What bargaining chip do we have to offer God, for any deal?

    Either we obey accept Jesus and win or don’t and lose it all again, having not learned a thing from thousands of years of examples.

    What a horrible insult to God to offer our love in terms of conditions. While His love for us is unconditional.

    Steve

  44. swwagner says:

    Steve,

    Your post reminds me again, that God is the “author and finisher of our faith”.

    He made us, He provided the sacrifice for our sin, He draws us to Himself,and He gives us the faith to accept Him as Savior. Then, He keeps us, He provides for us, He comforts us, He forgives us, He protects us, and finally He will bring us “home” to Himself.

    As His child, how can I be anything but joyful and thankful! “Praise Him, Praise Him! Tell of His excellent greatness!”

  45. SFDBWV says:

    I have said before how I look for God in every thing so I wanted to share a little of my self this morning.

    Many times I watch as a single hummingbird will set for long periods of time perched on the rim of the feeder. I know the feeder is empty and have a refill ready to go in as soon as the bird will abandon its perch and let me attend to it.

    I could scare off the little bird, but something in me say’s not to. So I wait until it flies away then quickly bring in the feeder clean and dry it then refill it and hang it on its hook. Sometimes I have actually had the little critters come to the feeder while my hands are still on it.

    Why or what is going on with the little hummingbird as it diligently defends its empty feeder and sets perfectly still for so long a stretch on an empty feeder?

    In my eyes I see a little bird that believes the feeder will be full again and perhaps sets in silent prayer and patience awaiting its own *miracle*.

    The answer to its prayer is setting here awaiting for the bird to get out of the way.

    The whole thing makes me wonder what miracles await each of us if we would just get out of the way.

    47 degrees this morning and dense fog before sun up, a cool 57 now at 9am; “Thank you Father.”

    Steve

  46. SFDBWV says:

    Good morning Sheryl, I hope you folks out there in Kansas are also enjoying cooler weather.

    Steve

  47. swwagner says:

    Steve, It has been cooler for a couple of days now…lots of clouds but very little rain. Mostly it is 100 degrees and very sunny! We are very dry as we are the home of the original dust bowl of the 1930’s. The land here is very flat…not many trees…and you can see forever. I love it! Mountains and lots of trees give me claustrophobia.

    I guess God does a good job of matching people with their locale…ha!

  48. bubbles says:

    I remember how afraid I was when I visited a flat land state for the first time. Ohio scared me. You are right about God matching people with their locale!

  49. poohpity says:

    When I consider the story of Jacob and applying it to my life, I ask myself several questions. Do I take matters into my own hands out of envy or jealousy like Jacob did? Jacob had already received the promise that God was going to make the younger rule over the older and be stronger(Gen 25:23 NIV) but Jacob and Rebekah went into deception mode to obtain the blessing from Isaac. Do I manipulate situations so that they will go my way rather than trusting God to fulfill His promises? The results of trusting in human reasoning led to a division in the family, having to leave home out of fear and later Jacob had grown fearful of His brother and that leads me to wonder what would have been different if they had trusted God? Do I go about things my way or in a way that those around me can see it is God I trust in and not me trying to be god?

    Do I go to God to ask for wisdom in how to deal with situations unlike Rebekah and Jacob did when they sat in their tent and devised a scheme against their own flesh and blood? (James 3:14-16 NIV) If they/I had went to God for wisdom about this or any situation the results would have been very different according to the Bible in James 3:17 NIV. Do I trust God and give all matters over to Him no matter the results knowing that he has all things in His hands or do I think I know better than God and manipulate, deceive?

  50. poohpity says:

    Aren’t you glad this is not our home we are aliens only for a visit our Home is in heaven with our Lord.

  51. poohpity says:

    If God matches us to our locals then what does it mean for me when I was born in Florida and between then and now have lived in 26 states and 3 countries. I must be a patch work quilt or just a mess, lol!! Probably just a mess.

  52. swwagner says:

    Poohpity…Yes, I am glad to have heaven to look forward too.

  53. swwagner says:

    Poohpity,

    I think you are a beautiful quilt! Everyone has a different scenario. I am just glad that I live where I do since I love it so much…there are plenty of people here who don’t like it at all.

    It would be an interesting discussion to elaborate on the different landscapes/climates and how they have shaped our lives.

    In Jacob’s story of leaving home, and having many landmarks along the way to remember the journey, I do believe that where we live or travel puts a mark on our lives. “All of nature claps its hands to the glory of God.”

    Sheryl

  54. poohpity says:

    Thank you so much for your kind words Sheryl. I think we all are threads of a beautiful tapestry woven by God.

    In the bible it seems most had to leave what they knew or places they were comfortable and safe being to places where they had to depend on God. I think that applies to us as well. Sometimes we get so comfortable that we do not get stretched. Although I was unable to develop long term relationships it formed me so that I was able to accept and talk to all kinds of people from all different backgrounds and cultures to see what unites us as human beings although we are so very different we share much more in common.

    I think that also applies to behaviors as well. Sometimes we do the same things we have always done and there is not much stepping out in faith that pushes us to grow beyond the norms we have always acted on. Jacob had to go from manipulating, deceiving and doing things his way to being real, trusting and depending on God.

  55. SFDBWV says:

    I have been wracking my memory trying to recall any event in Scripture where someone other than God initiated a deal that succeeded.

    It is that simple, unless it is ordained and the will of God, there is no deal, no bargain.

    Without exception it is God’s way or the highway.

    There has been a tee shirt comment out there for some time that goes something like this,” Please God let me win the lottery, I promise I won’t change.”

    If you take that humorous comment and render it down you come up with something closer to home and more startling to admit. “Please god, I promise”.

    In fact the truth of successes with God is even more astounding than the art of the deal or cunning bargaining.

    No matter your circumstances, whether in a sick bed, or at your wits end, impoverished or in a fog, if God anoints you to a purpose nothing will prevent your success. God has chosen you as a vessel for His purpose.

    What a blessing, what an honor to be chosen of God to be used for His purpose. There can be nothing to compare to this honor.

    You can make no deal that will succeed with God that He didn’t already agree to your doing, anoint and empower you for His purpose and see to its success.

    What an honor and a blessing.

    44 degrees this morning, looks and feels more like fall than the middle of summer.

    Steve

  56. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… all things considered and knowing that we still always retain our free will, that is amazing!

    Yet, there is no record of being dragged kicking and screaming all the way to Heaven against ones will.

    The very fact that His word says, He prepares a room for us… means to me, He knows we are coming.

    Arrived Melbourne a few hours ago with another three thousand miles logged under my belt.

    I wonder about all those If’s in the word, and also knowing there must also be those pesty little, If not’s…

    If my people who are called by my name…. then I will…

    If you love me… you will…

    Everything is conditional, where there is an If, there must also be an If not.
    Gary

  57. royalpalm says:

    Hello, Mart and BTA friends,

    Thanks for this topic and the various thoughts and insights… After re-reading the account in Gen. 28, I am with those who believe that Jacob was saying that because God will bless him, protect him and bring him back in peace , then he will honor the Lord who will be his God. Gen. 28:13,14,15, 20,21. Jacob’s words reminded me of Daniel who early in his life at the Babylonian court purposed in his heart to honor God. Dan. 1:8.

    Regarding Jacob as the great deceiver and cheater- note that before the twins were born God had revealed to Isaac through Rebecca that Jacob will rule over Esau. Gen. 25:23 Nevertheless Isaac who favored his outgoing son was determined to disobey God by planning to bless Esau and make him rule over Jacob and his descendants. (Read his blessing supposedly to Esau in Gen. 27:29) Rebecca had to take matters into her own hands because she wanted to obey God. She realized that Isaac was jeopardizing the future of the family by going against God. Esau had married Canaanite women and did not care about his birthright as head of the family. Gen 25:33,34. Jacob was hesitant to do what his mother wanted but he obeyed her. Gen. 27:8,11,12,13. Isaac probably realized his sin against God so he later on blessed Jacob again. Gen. 28:1,3, 4

    The story of Rebecca and Jacob deceiving Isaac and cheating Esau brought to my mind the account of Tamar and Judah in Gen. 38. Tamar had to resort to deception but was declared righteous by Judah because she was determined to honor God. Gen. 38:26 God honored her by making her one of the ancestors of our Lord . Matt. 1:3 Likewise the Hebrew midwives deceived and lied to Pharaoh but God blessed them because they feared and honored Him. Ex. 1:17, 18, 19,20.

    I believe this is also why God revealed Himself to Jacob and blessed him even after he and Rebecca deceived Isaac and cheated Esau of his inheritance. Jacob’s response to God’s revelation was that of awe, worship, gratitude and praise. Gen. 28: 16, 17, 18, 19,20,21,22. Later God honored him further by changing his name to Israel.

  58. BruceC says:

    Just wanted to let all know that I am still here. We have been very busy and I have not had a lot of time for thoughtful posting. We were at Ft. Ticonderoga last weekend. Monday the contractors finished the new roof due to storm damage in May. Tuesday my wife pulled/tore a muscle on her side by the ribs and still is in pain and unable to do much. Wednesday I bent over to pick up something on the floor and pinched the sciatic nerve in my back. In spite of the pain and COPD I had to replace a small stairway on the deck so our new insurance company can inspect the home for the insurance policy. Our last insurer would not pay a claim for the roof damage after being a loyal customer for 45 yrs auto and 25 for home insurance.
    But enough of our troubles. I pray all is well with all.
    Steve….it got to 44 degrees here too for two nights in a row. Upstate NY and the mountains!!

    God bless all!

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  59. swwagner says:

    royalpalm,

    Thank you for this post. I have never thought of Rebecca’s deception in this way. There are times in my life when I have been a deceiver because of wanting to honor God rather than man. This is a slippery slope to be sure, but I am so glad that God looks on the heart.

    Sheryl

  60. Mart De Haan says:

    BruceC,
    Thanks for letting us know that you’ve survived that kind of a week!

    And royalpalm, thank you for your thoughts on Jacob.

    I was going to try and post a follow-up this morning on bargaining with God. But I think I’ll wait in light of your comments.

    Your take on Jacob seems to line up in some ways with the stories of Joseph and Jesus who were both declared ahead of time by God to be the sons who would rule over their brothers. Jacob, Joseph, and our Lord all ended up being hated by their envious brothers before God’s predictions were fulfilled.

    I think you also make good points about people like the Hebrew midwives, who like the Canaanite, Rahab, were honored for faith that was entangled with their lies. So many of the people of faith honored in Hebrews chapter 11 lived troubled lives that might give us reason to wonder how God could honor them for their faith. Yet he graciously sees beyond the mess to their moments of trust in him.

    You’re right in saying that Isaac was not in line with the will of God in his desire to bless Esau (Gen 27:29).

    It seems to me, though, that only God knows whether Rebecca and Jacob, together, or separately, were acting in faith when they carried out their questionable impersonation of Esau to deceive husband and father Isaac.

    In light of what we are told about Isaac favoring Esau, and Rebecca Jacob, there are some indications that their relationships were, to some degree, self-serving (Gen 26:28).

    If we see Rebecca and Jacob as being heroes of faith in their decision to take matters into their own hands– to make sure that God’s will would be done (Gen 25:23), it seems to me that we end up with more problems—than if we let wrong be wrong—and God’s wisdom in knowing how to secure mercy for people like us the bigger point.

  61. BruceC says:

    Sometimes when I get down on myself I have to remind myself that all through the Bible God used imperfect people that had faith in Him and trust; and used them for His purpose. God’s grace is truly wonderful. I think that many times we need to see others in that light as God does. We like all; are messed up but salvageable and usable to our loving heavenly Father.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  62. swwagner says:

    Mart,

    I agree that there were probably some self serving agendas in the Isaac/Rebecca/Esau/Jacob story. It is a stretch to think God would tell Rebecca and Jacob to deceive Isaac and Esau. You are right to say that only God knows.

    I can think of other women in the Bible who went against their husbands. Abigail and Deborah for example.

    My personal experience plays into this rather heavily as I know what it is like to be under the thumb of a heavy handed/unreasonable husband. I know what it is like to have to protect a child from a father’s stubbornness when the father is not following God and leading away from God.

    I wonder what life was like for Rebecca as she was left to deal with Esau and Isaac after Jacob left. I wonder if Rebecca was trying to get Jacob away from Esau’s influence. Since Jacob was eventually reunited with Esau, maybe Rebecca was able to be a peace-maker during all of those years of separation to soften all hearts toward God. Maybe Rebecca made a few “bargains” with God herself since she is the one who knew that Jacob was to be the leader. Of course, I am just speculating.

    It is fascinating to me that God didn’t follow social or religious tradition concerning the eldest being the heir. It comforts me to know that God is not bound by man’s perceived “correctness” of how life ought to be. Even in imperfection, we can be instruments in God’s hands and I, even I, can be counted among the righteous. My “heart burns within me” as the Holy Spirit presents the truth and joy of being redeemed.

    Sheryl

  63. poohpity says:

    Doing things our way seems to always end up with more problems than there were to begin with. Compare the results of Tamar, midwives in Egypt, Rahab’s faith, and Joseph to Rebekkah, Jacob, Judah and Joseph’s brothers. Those stories show us that those who acted in a self serving way ended up with broken relationships, alienation, feelings of guilt and anger. Genesis 50:15 NIV

    Isaiah 48:17-18 NIV shows us that even though God does not force us to do anything His way but because He knows us so well He knows what is in our best interest which seems to be in the best interest of all people involved where most times we only think of ourselves.

  64. foreverblessed says:

    There are many who do not see this cheating of Rebecca and Jacob as an act of faith. I read a study on Jacob by Watchman Nee.
    It is called Changed into His likeness, you can read in on the internet, on the God calling site.
    About God who calls Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and why God calls Himself like that, it is very encouraging. Especially the part of Jacob.
    Have to go, busy in the real world.
    God bless you all, all who read this.

  65. poohpity says:

    I can imagine Rebekah not having a relationship with her favorite son for over 21 years and sharing in the birth and lives of her grandchildren if she justifies her unjust behavior. If they had trusted God and had faith in Him working things out to what He had promised than all their lives would have been different. Justifying unjust actions or not calling wrongs, wrongs may lead to a stagnant life of no change.

  66. poohpity says:

    Thinking about this and other stories in scripture I often ask God what is it you are trying to teach me through the life of Jacob or any other person in the Bible. If we speculate then we may not see the lesson right in front of us.

  67. swwagner says:

    Some random thoughts:

    Trying to “play god” or help God’s plan along is probably a lack of faith.

    Speculation about scripture can be dangerous but by comparing all scripture we can often glean hidden truths that are not apparent at first glance.

    While all scripture has a basic surface meaning that we can mostly agree upon, there are often deeper meanings that speak to us as individuals. The deeper meanings are not contrary to the surface meanings…but, they are often more personal to our situation in daily life.

    We need to be teachable and pliable as we read the Bible to allow the Holy Spirit to show us what we need to learn. It is okay to respectfully question the “usual” thinking or “what we have always been taught” if our hearts are truly searching to “know” the truth of God for ourselves…opposed to just believing what others tell us. Believing through another person or a set of traditions will not stand up to the onslaught of doubt and failure. Only personal experiences with the truths of God give you a foundation to stand on.

    Obviously deception can lead to instant punishment (Ananias and Sapphira). At other times, God seems to overlook it, but harm still comes from it in our relationships, our own well being, and in history itself. It is a sad thing to watch a child continue in the wrong example you set as a parent.

    Sin never has a good outcome that is for sure. However, I am so grateful that the Bible includes the failures of mankind…not only can we learn from them, but also be encouraged that God does make a way for us to overcome them in Him.

  68. poohpity says:

    Oh Sheryl you are so spot on about just believing what others tell us especially when learning God’s Word. There are many times when some teachers present something that is not congruent with the Bible put whoa to us for not finding out for ourselves. After a while of listening to some teachers and comparing what they say to scripture we learn that we can trust them. That is like me wanting a relationship with you but then going through your husband, children or your friends rather than just coming to you to listen and talk to get to know you.

    So many times a parent will justify bad behaviors in a child by emoting pity in some way or blaming to make right the wrong behaviors. That only serves to make a child continue on the wrong path but God being the best example of the best parent and for those who really care about God like in Jacob, God used the bad experiences of his life to turn him from a deceiver to one who rests in God. He was a deceiver then got deceived then learned to trust. If we think we know the best way God seems to allow us to go on with that way of thinking until we find out it is really not working for us as we live in misery, intolerance, depression, hatred, guilt and fears to a life of rest, peace, joy and trust.

  69. poohpity says:

    Just one false teaching can lead to another. “No individual raindrop ever considers itself responsible for the flood.”

  70. artle says:

    When Joseph’s brothers sold him they did something evil, but Joseph said later, “it was not you who sent me here, but God” (Genesis 45:8). God’s purpose was carried out by an act of evil. I do not see it as a case of God turning an evil act into a blessing. I see it as “all things work together for good to them that love God” (Romans 8:28). How else was Joseph going to get to Egypt and be in position to help when the famine hit.

    I see the same thing here with Rebecca and Jacob. How else was Jacob going to receive the blessing, be sent off to find his wives, find the Lord on the way, and find him again on the way back? Probably a thousand different possible scenarios, but the one we have here is the one God chose.

    One difference though between the two stories is I don’t think there was evil on the part of Rebecca and Jacob. Rebecca must have loved the Lord because she spoke with God and He spoke with her which places her in a fairly select group. No indication that she shared the conversation with Isaac. Isaac’s intent to bless Esau might not have been intent to defy God.

  71. plumbape says:

    I read a book about the Man Jesus with all his human likeness called Beautiful Outlaw. He did everything the Father wanted but at the time it was against the law. it shows a follower of Christ doesn’t just believe the Word but follows the Word. Probably impossible to the letter but God loves us because we try. Love God first and love your neighbor as yourself, even our enemies are Gods children they just don’t know it! Certainly no small task but more and more I enjoy showing the love of Jesus more than doing anything else. Changed me from the inside out! Amen to that in this temporary life. God bless all you people and keep the faith! Michael

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