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Mark of the Forgiven

DSC02027With just a few words, someone who knew what it was like to deny Christ gave us a lot to think about. According to Peter, if we are not growing in our love for others, we have forgotten how much we’ve been forgiven (2Peter 1:8-9).

Jesus said something similar to a Pharisee who objected when a woman poured out  expensive perfume on Jesus’ head—  washing his feet with her tears, and drying them with her hair. Jesus reminded his unnerved host that the person who has been forgiven much loves much  (Luke 7:47).

Am wondering whether, when Peter wrote about the significance of forgiveness in spiritual growth, he was thinking of that conversation. He had probably been at the table of the Pharisee who shared his given name (Luke 7:39-47).

My guess is that Peter was a  different man after hating himself for what he had done and then realizing that Jesus had forgiven him.

Am also wondering whether you hear Peter and Jesus saying something that we can never afford to forget– even though we’d all probably like to…


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61 Responses to “Mark of the Forgiven”

  1. swwagner says:

    Forgiveness and Acceptance from someone you have wronged is a priceless gift and also a rare one. How easily we forget the grace bestowed upon us…I doubt that we can truly grasp the depth of God’s love toward us “while we were yet sinners”.

    My prayer is to be ever aware of God’s mercy toward me and to be an avenue for God to bless others…even in the face of the disgust, emotional trauma, or physical harm they may cause me.

  2. SFDBWV says:

    Reading this topic this morning quickly reminded me of the fine line between immaturity and maturity, between honest remorse and expected forgiveness, between using and receiving.

    A crafty natured person would quickly realize that Jesus is ready to forgive and so rely on that for a continued lifestyle needing forgiveness, and expecting it.

    Whereas a truly remorseful person would hate themselves for being weak and hope that their offence is forgiven.

    Maturity says that we all will strive not to fail, but will and are forgiven nevertheless.

    There is an old saying that practice makes perfect and it is in that spirit that I myself live; always realizing that I won’t be perfect, but always working toward that goal of not letting Jesus down anymore.

    Steve

  3. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All –

    Front is coming inland from the Pacific now. Wind, rain and very mild temps. Blessed moisture! Hoping there will not be severe weather as the storm moves east.

    The mark of the forgiven is forgiveness, it seems to me. In some areas of our personal, national and international relationships there is a significant lack of this gift that God has given us, reported in the media at least. Unforgiveness can harden into a grudge. What an ugly word “gruuuudge” is!

    There are people in the Bible who go through massive personal changes: Moses, Jacob…and then, Peter stand out in memory. Don’t we all identify with Peter’s journey? After his calling and the ministry years following Jesus, his broken-heartedness over betraying the Lord, and then spreading the word of the Master’s love, he was able to say:

    “…if we are not growing in our love for others, we have forgotten how much we’ve been forgiven (2 Peter 1:8-9).” I imagine how far he had come from a rough-hewn, tough sailor and fisherman to a preacher and church-planter — and finally a tender-hearted and sensitive teacher in the body of Christ.

    The woman who realized what the Lord had done for her, embraced the humiliation and disapproval of the religious leaders gathered for dinner to express her deep gratitude for her forgiveness. At that dinner party:

    “Jesus reminded his unnerved host that the person who has been forgiven much loves much (Luke 7:47).” There is the mark!

    Everyone has missed the mark (the definition of sin). Firm, unyielding unforgiveness of Christians repels us. Forgiving seventy times seven attracts us.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  4. remarutho says:

    Pondering the mark of the forgiven, perhaps it is unfair to single out Christians as unforgiving. Unforgiveness repels because it so often carries the heavy baggage of judgment. No individual or group escapes the sad outcomes of unforgiveness.

    Haven’t we all felt the sting from both sides of it? Maru

  5. swwagner says:

    Yes, I have been on the side of being stingy and unforgiving and also on the side of wanting someone to forgive me. Both very uncomfortable!

  6. poohpity says:

    There was a time in my life after receiving God’s gift that I went to a place of thinking like the Pharisees that it was my acts of righteousness that the Lord appreciated rather than the appreciation for what exactly had been done for me. Later I learned it was not those behaviors that the Lord smiled on but giving out what was done for me, grace. There is nothing more beautiful to me than a person who understands and grows in God’s grace and lives that out as they develop a deeper relationship with our Savior.(2 Peter 3:18 NIV)

    tracey said it well the other day, only those who recognize their need to be forgiven look for and to Jesus to fulfill that need (my paraphrase). The Pharisees did not see that need but the woman did and showed, by her behavior, the heartfelt gratefulness for it and I bet that she kept her eyes on the One who gave it to her rather than paying any attention to those around her who didn’t. I only know what He did for me which to this day still amazes me and I am still in need of it.

  7. BruceC says:

    Another thing we need to be aware of is that sometimes our “disappointment” with others and family members can appear to be unforgiveness towards them if we show it to them all the time.

    Steve,

    Praying that you are not affected by the chemical spill and praying for those that are.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  8. poohpity says:

    Even though there were many around Jesus and Peter at the moment of Peter’s denial there seemed to be only Jesus looking at Peter and Peter looking at Jesus no one else seemed to matter. (Luke 22:61-62 TLB) When Paul was persecuting Christians there seemed to be Jesus talking to Paul and Paul listening to Jesus no one else seemed to matter. (Acts 9:3-7 TLB) As Jesus calls each of us no matter what anyone else around us does we respond to Him alone and then what others are doing around doesn’t seem to matter much only when I turn my eyes and ears away from Jesus do I look at what others are doing and forget what was done for me.

  9. SFDBWV says:

    Bruce you caught me at a good time, Matt just finished his bike ride with 12.7 miles in 30 minutes so he is busted and very tired resting in his chair.

    I have a few minutes before our friend Kathy gets her for Matt and hair cuts.

    No the chemical spill in the Elk River is far from us, way down south of us a couple hundred miles.

    We get our water from a spring, even our treated municipal water system is a spring fed reservoir.

    Thank you for the concern.

    50 degrees and raining.

    Steve

  10. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Going from “Why is God Angry” (which I’m still not convinced that God’s anger is in any way similar to man’s anger) to God’s Forgiveness and what effect does it have on those who have received it.

    I think people’s lives are much more likely to be changed by receiving undeserved grace and forgiveness than by receiving the anger that they do deserve.

    The mark of the forgiven is one who knows without doubt, that they deserve death and hell, but that God has paid their debt. It cannot be paid back. It can only be accepted. All the emphasis is on God and what He has done. All the emphasis and focus is on loving God, worshiping and adoring Him. God calls us to forgive as we have been forgiven.

    As Maru pointed out, the mark of the forgiven is one who does not hold a grudge.

    I wanted to say more about knowing that we don’t deserve grace and can’t expect others to measure up to our standards before we think that they are deserving of grace or rather forgiveness.

    Then I read the comment in Our Daily Journey on “undeserved grace” by Roxanne Robbins. Wow, she says it so clearly.

  11. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all… Answered Prayer came today as my sister called and said she is finally receiving professional help for her additictions and finally confessed to being an alcoholic for years. That is something she had never confessed or told anyone even her therapist of many years was denied any knowledge about her drug asbuse and alcohol useage. My sister just said I knew what she wanted to hear and I told only enough to comply.
    My sister said she played them all, her doctors for drugs and her therapists for the power over them about her beloved ongoing denial.
    Praise God that this time she finally accepted her previously deceptive hidden tales to others claiming her condition was always just part of her lymes disease which seemed to her a vehicle to justify her addiction problems.
    She was released from a phsyce hosipital on Christmas Eve after spending six or seven days there.
    Her eyes have been opened to the harsh reality of it all and her healing is on the way as she identifies and faces up to each past temptation that has ruled over her, and perhaps now is given victory over them. A long tough process for many, but it must take place one step at a time, short of a healing miracle.
    I found her freely given confession very cleansing, and to be as evidence to the Lord’s working in her life through the prayers of many others and trust the He can and will use all those years of defeet and denial for His good purposes.
    She has already been told because of her nursing background and her vast knowledge of personal experience in addiction that she could be a very needed counselor to many if she found that to be her new calling.
    Right now she says she is still to weak and vulnerable, but knows that God prepares those whom He calls even though they feel as not ready.
    So, thank you all for your prayers and please keep on praying, for the power of prayer is not to be thwarted or stopped by the wiles of the evil one.
    Gary

  12. poohpity says:

    Rejoicing with you both Gary. Yes denial is a pretty difficult wall to break through but after admission comes healing. Will continue to pray with you all.

  13. cbrown says:

    This “blog” is one remarkable fellowship.Praise God!

  14. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Peter and Jesus helped me to understand the value of a “second chance” (and even a third, fourth, fifth… with our gracious God!); that it’s a pearl of great price! Their situations also helped me to discern the supernatural and healing power of FORGIVENESS!

    By the way, was the woman who anointed Jesus’ feet with the costly perfumed ointment and dried them with her hair, Mary, Martha’s sister??

    Love to all…

    Enjoyed a balmy 68-70 degree day in Texas. :)

  15. poohpity says:

    I do not know what her name was. I think there are 2 different times that Jesus was anointed with oil. The first seems to be earlier in His ministry at a Pharisees house the other a week before He was crucified and that one I believe is the one done by Mary, Martha’s sister while He was in Bethany.

  16. belleu says:

    I am rejoicing with you, Gary, over your sister! This is wonderful news, Praise God.

    When I think of God’s forgiveness in my life, I think of how I used to love to gossip and say nasty things about people. When I was in my twenties, the Lord showed me I needed to stop doing that. I then think of what kind of woman I would be without God convicting me of sin and forgiving me. It actually scares me. I can’t afford to live without Jesus. I am a sinful woman and any good I do I do because of Him.

    I told that to a counselor once and she thought it was terrible to think all the good in me comes from God and not myself. She invited me to her church one day and I went. It was a church of self-worship – I’d never been to a church like that in my life. The audience repeated words of how good we all were – it was just weird!

    Jesus has been my greatest example of forgiveness. Since he forgave those who nailed him to the cross, how can I refuse to forgive anyone for anything?

  17. BruceC says:

    Steve,

    Glad to hear you and the family are safe.

    Gary,

    The Lord be praised for what He has done in your sister’s life!!

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  18. SFDBWV says:

    In the last topic Mart mentioned he had been looking over Scripture from Genesis to Revelation concerning the subject; the same can be said of this and perhaps all of our subjects, but for this topic I want to explore the idea of forgiveness and discernment.

    It has been said that right and wrong has been etched into our hearts from creation as well as seeing a creator in all of nature and the vast starry sky.

    What actually happened after Adam and Eve were exiled from Eden? Did the knowledge of God vanish from the people that followed? When did man begin to deny God? For to deny God is the same as denying our Lord; or is it?

    The immediate children of Adam and his grandchildren either had a story of God from Adam or an actual relationship of some kind as it is written that Enoch walked with God and was “taken” by God at the young age of 365 years. Interesting that now one year is 365 days long.

    Even Cain heard God’s voice as an offer to confess and as an accusation.

    Cain’s specific punishment was a mark that denoted and separated him as a murder from the rest of men, as well as the promise of a frustrated and futile life. Did Cain repent? It is said that Cain went out from the presence of the Lord. Was Cain forgiven?

    As time passes by God once again speaks to only one man, as is written, that man being Noah. Yet found right there in the names of the descendants of Adam to Noah is the prophesy of the flood as well as of salvation. It would seem people knew of God and right from wrong, but denied both. The result was death.

    What about today? We have knowledge of God and even the detailed knowledge of Him through His Word and Son Jesus of Nazareth. Just like in the days of Noah some pay no attention to God or right from wrong as they go about their daily lives.

    Here is where discernment comes in. We are separated out of the world as a peculiar people (1 Peter 2:9) so why should not we see clearly the right and wrong behavior of ourselves and of other people?

    How do we warn people of the coming judgment? Does it sound more like an accusation from a preconceived hypocrite? Or pleading from one who is genuinely concerned for the wellbeing of others?

    Jesus clearly told Peter that Peter would deny even knowing Him three times; hurt and confused Peter did not recognize what Jesus had told him until it actually occurred. It was then that Peter felt the self loathing of his weakness.

    The big thing is that Jesus, though rejected, did not reject Peter and continued to use him as a pillar in the building of His Church.

    This tells me there is not only hope for those who reject Jesus now, but sheds light on the bigger picture of what Jesus accomplished at the cross as he ask for forgiveness to all for their ignorance.

    Steve

  19. Artle says:

    Forgiven is a very important word. There are many things I do not understand, but I do understand the forgiven are those who walk the earth; forgiven whether they know it or not. They may not take advantage of it and may die in their sins, but they are still forgiven.

    People will not perish because they failed to asked God for forgiveness; they will perish because they failed to accept the forgiveness God has already offered. If I can remember His forgiveness, not only of myself, but everyone around me, it seems I could see my way to help (love) just about anybody.

  20. poohpity says:

    Amen Artle!!

    There is not one word written in scripture about self debasement in fact quite the opposite. We are beloved of God, forgiven, justified, sanctified and much, much more and if that does not prompt good self esteem/worth then I do not know what does. But that does not mean we toot our own horn or put others down thinking any less of another it does mean we hold our heads high and are confident of who we are in Christ. We do good because we walk as dearly loved children of God.

  21. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Artle – I agree with what you say. Perhaps the “mark” of the forgiven is upon those who realize that they are forgiven. I do think all are forgiven, it’s just that some may not understand what that means.

    1 Timothy 1:15-16 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners – of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on Him and receive eternal life.

  22. poohpity says:

    tracey, I would agree that some may not understand but for those who do it will be seen in a growing love for others displayed in patience, mercy and forgiveness. All this because we understand what was done for us, losing sight of that we are harder on people, less forgiving and more demanding. Remembering the undeserved we do not expect others to earn.

  23. oneg2dblu says:

    Sounds a liitle too much like a form of Universalism is both believed and preached here, when we start thinking all roads lead to heaven and everybody is already forgiven.

    But, that is not the message of the bible, or the words of Christ.

    I would ask us all to just consider two things, Who does the bible say this forgiveness must come from?
    How does anyone gain access to it?

    Or is that a little too rigid for any of our universalist thinking on forgiveness?

    When you have first solved and those questions through the written things found in God’s word, and not your feelings, it is then one finds there is only one forgiveness that saves us from the death where your sins had once held you captive and apart, or separated, from ever overcoming the world, and ever accessing a Holy God.

    Perhaps I’ve read too much scripture and believe what is actually says, and not the ever so convincing words of any man who will not accept they we actually have a role to play in the outcome of our eternity and the word of God clearly spells that out.

    Why should we worry ourselves about what ever happened to Adam after being banished from the garden, and then only accepting that he will be in heaven with all the other sinners who have ever walked on this earth, as if they are already in a state of forgiveness even without any repentance, which to me is a position held more by wishful thinking than any hearing of the word, or any act of obedience that God has given us through His Word.

    Once we start changing Grace into what fits only our collective and universal way of thinking, as in everyone is forgiven, and not what God’s says in the rulebook or guidelines which have taken all those sixty-six books to actually define for us what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to an Almighty God and apply it to us today, then I fear we have become deceptively worldly, insensitive, and possibly even intolerant and unfearing of any of the warnings found in His word. Even perhaps creating our own story instead.
    Are there any rules in love, or is it only love rules? To me, the first rule for a Christ Follower is, “If you love me you will obey my commands,” the first of which is, “Follow Me.”
    Without faith it is impossible to please God, and without obedience, impossible to love and follow Christ.
    How forgiveness after the cross fits into this eternity question for the rest of the unbelieving world today, is probably the whole reason for giving us the Great Commission.
    Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, so this forgiveness issue is really the end result of the work of Christ and the fulfillment of the Great Commission, the only true divider of all people is forgiveness, because only forgiven people will ever enter Heaven, according to the word of God.
    Forgive me if I’ve pushed some a little too hard on this.
    Gary

  24. poohpity says:

    Gary, so you are saying that Jesus did not die for your sins until you believed He did? Are you accusing the brethren again? It would be nice if the pushing were done in the right direction rather than every direction except due North.

  25. fadingman says:

    It just occurred to me that all four gospels record Peter’s denial of Jesus, indicating that this became public knowledge. Yet, none of the other disciples condemned him for it. Why is that?

    Perhaps it was because they all fell away (Peter was just an example), so for them to condemn him would have brought the same condemnation on themselves. They had to forgive because they were also forgiven.

    I also noticed when Jesus restored Peter in John 21, they were not alone. Thomas, Nathanael, James, John, and two others were present and witnessed it. Jesus restored Peter openly, giving us an example to do likewise.

  26. poohpity says:

    I know they all scattered but was it not only Peter who denied knowing Jesus? Had not Jesus already met with Peter alone then the other disciples before the meal on the beach? Luke 24:34 NIV; 1 Cor 15:5 NIV

  27. oneg2dblu says:

    Sorry pooh, for my apparent misunderstanding of the topic again, Mark of the Forgiven.

    I did not say anything about what or whose sins Christ died for, He clearly died for the sins of the world, so that is not being challenged here.

    I was talking about the forgiveness of those sins, or the process of this forgiveness that must take place as being a very well defined and narrow way according to the word.

    I’m not accussing or pushing the brethren around here in any direction, except that we all accept the whole truth as written.

    If that is seen as pushing or accusing the brethen on my part instead of loving them, then I guess knowing the truth and the whole truth, is meant to be that way.

    What I thought I was saying was that only forgiven people get to go to heaven.

    That to me means “not everyone” is forgiven of their sins, or are we saying all people would already be marked as ones who’s names are written in the book of life, and are fully heaven bound?

    It is scripture that says or pushes us otherwise.

    Meaning perhaps that every living being may not really qualify for that mark, unless certain conditions are met first.

    If everybody has their sins already forgiven them because they need only to walk on this earth, then why are we talking about forgiveness and its mark as being the footprints of man?

    Clearly we are not all marked with forgiveness, but we are all marked with a sin debt which is death for us all, and that is why we need access to this forgiveness of God, and why we need a Saviour.

    Does everyone automatically receive this forgiveness without any conditions according to the scripture?

    Now if are off and picking apart any specific people who had encountered this Jesus mentioned in the bible, with examples of their behaviors mentioned in the bible, then we must also see that not all were already forgiven as mentioned in the bible.

    “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.”

    Gary

  28. poohpity says:

    Gary, what do you do with the forgiveness the Lord offered you? Do you give it out as freely as it was offered to you? Or do people have to earn your forgiveness, do they have to ask for it before you give it or do you put conditions on it?

  29. Artle says:

    Before the Cross:
    Matthew 6:14-15 (NASB)
    14 “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 “But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    After the Cross:
    Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
    32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

  30. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    poohpity – Thank you for answering my question.

    Steve – I, too, am glad that your water is safe. I was concerned about you too when I heard on the news where the chemical spill occurred.

    Off topic here… Had a nasty stomach virus today. It started early yesterday morning, and now, at mid-night, early Monday morning, I finally feel better! Thank God for the power of prayer!

    Love to all…

  31. foreverblessed says:

    This is such a basic verse 2 Peter 1:9
    If we do not have these qualities, 2 Peter 5-7
    goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love-
    then we have forgotten that we have been forgiven!
    What a basic statement.
    So if we are dry, a barren tree, as a christian, then start at the beginning again:
    If we have faith in Christ, we have been forgiven, Christ is our righteousness, holiness and redemption 1 Cor 1:30.
    Do I really believe that?
    Can I stand in front of God, and know that I am a beloved child of His, accepted and cleansed by the blood of Christ?
    Am I sure of that?
    1 Cor 6:11
    Then we know the goodness of God, we have knowledge of His redemption, and there we already started on our pilgrims’ path to full living, at the end it means LOVE, to live in love.
    Lets not be double minded about who we are, lets face our acceptance by God, and lets live our lives in Him, and be of great value to Him, as all the qualities of 2 Peter 1:5-7 will grow in us.

    I resound with all other comments, beginning with the first one of Swwagner…
    And Gary, I rejoice for your sister, may God bless her and guide her into His full life.
    (and besides, if Steve says, that Adam may be in heaven, I am sure that Steve means to say that Adam finally was repentant, and so could go to heaven, so before you start your sermon, first ask him what he was trying to say before you assume that he said that Adam was unrepentant and still in heaven. Just some advice from me, not to make things bigger then they are overhere.)
    Regina, thank God your stomach upset was so short, my son had a whole week of trouble, but is better now.

  32. SFDBWV says:

    Looking at the end of the story in Revelation we see a world divided between God’s people and the worshipers of a false god. This false religion uses the very core necessities of living in order to force people into accepting life under its rule.

    It is said only then is the fate of those who chose the mark of the beast, sealed with a doom shared for the beast.

    God also places a mark on His people as He assures their victory against a shared enemy.

    Even those who have died under the tyranny of the anti-christ are given white robes as a mark of their sacrifice.

    After a great tribulation period and cleansing of the world there is a great *day* given as a thousand years of peace with Jesus as King of Kings with His “clouds of witnesses” ruling and reigning upon the earth.

    There is a resurrection of the dead who are in Christ and these people are resurrected into new bodies likened to the resurrected body of Jesus, an eternal body made perfect. This is the mark of all who came to terms with Jesus of Nazareth and became Christians. (Revelation 20:6)

    1,000 years later there is a second resurrection (Revelation 20:10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15). Here death, hell, the beast, the false prophet, and whosoever was not found in the book of life are cast into the eternal lake of fire.

    Where do we see this “book of life” in the Scriptures before? It is in the establishment of the Feasts and in particular Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur that men’s fates are written in the Book of Life and sealed.

    Who is it that we consider to be the embodiment of these Feasts, Jesus of Nazareth the Christ.

    Who is it that Jesus did not die for? Who is it that is not forgiven?

    Our responsibility as Christians are to live as holy a life as we can all the while proclaiming that Salvation has come to all men through Jesus of Nazareth, *not* to point out who we *think* God will punish with unforgiveness.

    God will judge men by their deeds not us; pray that all men will find forgiveness in the abundant grace and mercy of God our Father.

    Steve

  33. Artle says:

    Peter’s focus in these verses is the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I think one of the reasons Peter’s thrice denial was highlighted in scripture is because knowing Jesus is not just important, it is everything. Colossians 1:13-29 (NASB)

    There is so much in these few words. See the forgiveness in verse 13, how it was accomplished in verse 22, but also note the proviso in verse 23 and the key to everything in verse 27: “to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Colossians 1:27 (NASB)

    Christ in you, because: Colossians 1:16-17 (NASB)

    Knowing Jesus is everything, because He is everything.

  34. poohpity says:

    Because we bare the mark of the forgiven we can lay aside the old life with all it’s anger, hatred, malice, grudges, strife, rage, talking ugly about people behind their backs, bitterness, lying and put on the new life we have in Christ Jesus. That new life in process of being compassionate, kind, humble, gentle and patient baring with each other forgiving our problems with others because we understand what Christ did for us He forgave so as we imitate Him we also forgive. Who do we think we are to do any less?

    I would just love it if that old life stopped all of a sudden and it never reared it’s ugly head again but it does and that is why, to me, there is such a distinguishing mark made in forgiveness. We do it because it was done for us.

  35. poohpity says:

    There seems to be a significant shallowness in the type of thinking that one may have never really done anything that bad so when they accepted Christ’s forgiveness they already had a prideful thought of themselves. I guess that would be why Jesus said, “But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” Having said this in the home of a Pharisee says a lot about the atmosphere and the hearts of those who were in ear shot then and now. Similar to what He talked about being around the Pharisees again when stated He came for sinners not for those who thought of themselves as righteous. The blindness of those who are filled with pride seems to prevent a deeper relationship with the Lord and the ability to have a deeper and growing love of others.

  36. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… it seems everyone here has a sermon, some say all are marked for heaven, some say all are washed and in Christ, and I sermon this point, without repentance ones sins are not forgiven.
    We all take a different view as well as some speak of the end times, while others speak of the days when the apostles lived, and some speak of us today, and what is still required to be forgiven.
    So, we have some history, some mystery, and some current events. I can not live in the past, or in the future, I must live for Christ today, and today when I sin, I repent, and know that God hears me and forgives me.
    I do not embrace the, “all are already forgiven of their sins doctrine” that is grace expanded beyond the restrictions of the word, and that is the very basis of all this unending turmoil within the brethren.
    Some fall into the believe and be saved category, and others find that we must Repent first to be forgiven,
    and others believe that only if we forgive first will we be forgiven later, so it clearly must be all those things combined, which even though they are written separately and now separate us, they also support our differences and create our sense of scriptural homology.
    Everything else is nothing but the picking apart of our humanity and that part we do not like.
    Do I forgive everyone, ever time, always?
    Not yet, and that is the point that says to me, I’m still being discipled and that (I) and (we) are not yet already there, or are we already forgiven.
    Thanks to all for you contributions to this forgivess mark which seems to be a little , according to which sermon and verses are given.
    Gary

  37. Artle says:

    Gary, Where did “some say all are marked for heaven, some say all are washed and in Christ,” come from? Curious because I do not see those remarks anywhere in this topic.

  38. oneg2dblu says:

    Artle… let me look back and find where we started this testy thread and bring to light some of our own words…

    First you quote the words of Christ that were given to His Followers, the disciples, and then quote Paul speaking to Christ Followers in the church…
    Before the Cross:
    Matthew 6:14-15 (NASB)
    14 “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 “But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    After the Cross:
    Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
    32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

    Neither quote is spoken to pagans or the unsaved, who also were clearly walking the earth.

    Artle says, “There are many things I do not understand, but I do understand the forgiven are those who walk the earth; forgiven whether they know it or not. They may not take advantage of it and may die in their sins, but they are still forgiven.

    First, share with me those verses to support this unchallenged theory of, the forgiven are those who walk the earth.

    Then, the verses that support that this forgiveness among the forgiven, is also unknown.

    Then, the verses that say “they die in their sins but they are still forgiven.”

    The scriptures are very clear about what happens to all the dead… the dead are judged.
    Revelation 20: 12, 13, 14 (NIV)
    “And I saw the dead great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up their dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    If there is after death forgiveness for sinners, which in not really what the message of the bible says, then we do not need the Great Commission, which by hearing awakens those who are alive today and walking unknowingly in their lack of forgiveness, their unsaved condition, or sinfilled darkness.

    Who says, we don’t need to have any repentance for forgiveness of sins, and we don’t need to share the gospel because all the work that is given to the church today is already done, so the church has no real further mission.

    So, if one says all are forgiven, and another says, only the forgiven get to go to heaven, than we are collectively saying that all go to heaven, and making both premises inaccurate.

    If all have their sins forgiven, then according to the word, they were washed of their sins, and if only those who know Christ are washed of their sins, then all are in Christ already even though as you say, they do not know it, making that premise inaccurate as well.

    I’ll rest my case upon those few verses for now, knowing there are many, many, more verses that will support them.

    Not pushing anything, just revealing some truth.

    No one likes to have their words picked apart, or changed, not even God!

    Gary

  39. belleu says:

    Okay, now I’m really confused. Artle, are you saying every person on earth or who has been on earth will go to heaven? That they will be forgiven as they live in their sin?

    I thought you were saying that forgiveness is there for everyone, but that we have to accept it. Is that right?

    I agree with Gary that not everyone will be saved. It is plain in the Old and New Testaments.

  40. Artle says:

    belleu, don’t be confused. Acceptance is the key. Belief is the real key, and you pretty much have to believe to accept.

    Gary, I think I see where you are coming from, but this is just not the right place to hammer things out. I wish we could sit down sometime and compare notes as I imagine we could both learn a little from each other’s journey.

    To be perfectly clear, my earlier comments do not mean that all will get to heaven nor that all are washed and in Christ.

  41. SFDBWV says:

    A few years ago we had a native America Mohawk join our conversation for a while; one of the matters he had issue with concerned how the accepted and taught view of salvation was exclusive, not inclusive.

    In order to properly view salvation from our present position of a world filled with evangelists and Christian churches and Bibles, we have to remember a time when only a hand full of people knew anything at all about Jesus of Nazareth, who He is and what happened there at Jerusalem. The complete world had no knowledge of how to obtain salvation/forgiveness from God.

    In fact except for the Jew, no one knew the *truth* about God at all.

    So what of all the millions of people spread all over the globe that were born, lived a life, and died? Were they doomed to eternity in hell because of *ignorance*?

    Particular attention given to 1 Peter 3: 18, 19, 20 21; here Jesus goes into the presence of those people long dead from before the flood and preached salvation by His death and resurrection. As well as 1 Peter 4:6; whereby the gospel is given to those already dead.

    It is God who will judge all people who have not accepted Jesus’ offer of Salvation or died ignorant of it, being judged by God means that He judges not us. We as Christians are judged by Jesus for our lives as well, and again it is Jesus who judges not us.

    We are to present forgiveness to the world through Jesus of Nazareth and His sacrifice, not judgment.

    Personally I think the *mark* of the forgiven is the eager willingness of the forgiven to forgive and not condemn.

    Steve

  42. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    Peter reminds us in his second letter to the churches that the qualities of those who hold to faith in Jesus are gifts that accompany faith. Then Peter lists them:

    Goodness (not mine but his)
    Knowledge (of him)
    Self-control (by Christ’s presence in me)
    Endurance that derives from self-control
    Godliness (being attentive to Jesus’ presence always)
    Mutual affection (treating others with compassion)
    Love (our goal, because God is love) (2 Peter 1:5-7)

    Peter immediately adds, as you referenced, Mart:

    “For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed.” (verses 8-9)

    As Pooh said (Jan 13th at 2:18 pm), seeking the constant renewal that is promised (and given) by Jesus’ presence in us keeps us from shallowness and self-deceit. We give up the illusion that we can ever climb onto God’s throne. We stop looking for the speck in others’ eyes and begin to remove the log in our own. Our only authentic position is to speak positively about God’s grace and forgiveness. These great gifts he gives freely to any who seek.

    Maru

  43. poohpity says:

    If I believe the Bible then when Artle said, “I do understand the forgiven are those who walk the earth; forgiven whether they know it or not. They may not take advantage of it and may die in their sins, but they are still forgiven.” is a true statement according to the scripture. Let me see if I can bring that statement to light by using scripture.

    “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the “WORLD”” note the word world. John 1:29

    “For God did not send his Son into the “WORLD” to condemn the “WORLD”, but in order that the “WORLD” might be saved through him.” notice again the word world. John 3:17

    “the Savior of the “WORLD”.” John 4:42

    “but also for the sins of the whole “WORLD”. 1 John 2:2

    “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the “WORLD”. 1 John 4:14

    Although Artle uses earth but it is plain that the “WORLD” means everyone past, present and future. The mark of those who realize that are the one’s who are in a hurry to tell everyone in the world about that very “Good News” and walk in a manner worthy of one who is forgiven by acting that forgiveness out by giving/sharing it to/with others so they will know about it too so that they may take advantage of it.

  44. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… not only do we pick apart each others words, or add to them, to either stretch meanings or limit meanings just to prove our pointed sermons, and only our sermons.
    Here we “only” share John 3:17, and leave out the incovenience of John 3:18 which fully explains the context of having beleif in Christ, and the word “might” is the very dividing factor of life or death contained in the word, or gospel message.
    John 3:18 “He who beleives in Him is not condemned;
    but he who does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.”
    Now, if we take just your take, which fits your sermon so well,and avoid the whole truth we then deceive as well.
    Here is what I see contained in the verses in John 3: 17,18.
    There is no forgiveness of sins, but only condemnation for those who “do not believe” in Christ Jesus.

    That is why we must take the whole gospel message to the whole “world,” which can not possibly mean… past, present, and future.

    Sorry if you see me just pushing you around, but I’m not, I’m Just sharing the whole truth.

    It really does take a whole lot of effort to bring the fullness of forgiveness into the light, where only partial truths now reign so easily.

    All are clearly not already forgiven according to that word, and the unbelievers that we are to reach through this Great Commission apparently are now condemned already.

    Are they both already condemned and already forgiven?

    Perhaps it is only me who has read the scriptures incorrectly, or all too selectivly at best.

    I never doubt God’s forgiveness, or God’s salvation, but they do not belong to everyone already, as there are conditions that must be met first.

    Making both forgiveness and salvation conditional.

    The whole premise of the Great Commission is that the whole world needs to hear it, and only the forgiven and saved ones have been given that commission.

    Gary

  45. poohpity says:

    I was thinking of a few examples in my life of those who have never admitted to wronging me but yet I have forgiven them. One was my 1st husband who hit me so hard that my eye was shoved through my eye socket did he ever ask to be forgiven, no, but did I forgive him, yes. Another was my own brother who turned, by lies, my family against me after my mom’s death has he ever asked for forgiveness, no but have I forgiven him, yes. It took time to work through that forgiveness unlike that of the Lord and what helped me to do that was looking at all the things I had done in my life that needed forgiveness. I think that is the bottom line when we understand the immensity of the forgiveness we have received we will be forever marked and the significance of that forgiveness we received will really benefit our spiritual growth and understanding.

    It does not benefit those who compare their lives to others thinking they live good godly lives but when those lives are compared to the life of Jesus then one can see they fail to measure up in so many ways remembering Jesus sees the heart, the hidden secret places and yet forgives.

  46. poohpity says:

    Gary we are not looking at the advantages after we have learned about that forgiveness we are looking at the fact we were forgiven before we knew we were.

  47. foreverblessed says:

    Talking amongst ourselves, this is for us….
    great news! Belive this if you believe in Jesus.
    The more we realise this the more we can grow in fruitfulness and be of use for others to be drawn to Jesus.
    from God at eventide, Jamuary 20

    “I am with you. I am delivering you. But look for deliverance not from circumstances alone, but deliverance from the self-ties that bind you to earth, and that hinder your entrance into the kingdom of the service in which there is perfect freedom. All is well.

    You shall rise to newness of Life. You cannot fail to rise as you free yourself from the toils and sins and failures that bind you to Earth.

    No past sin can enchain you. You look to Me and are saved. They are all forgiven. Conquer your faults with My Strength now, and nothing can prevent you from rising, nothing that is past.

  48. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… that is quite a stretch for me, as I did not receive any forgiveness for my sins, until I first recognized I was a sinner, and in need of Saviour’s forgiveness.

    Or, was that all a lie because if you are already forgiven, then why does the Holy Spirit ever convict us?

    So, my testimony is now invalid because you say we all already walked in forgiveness, both before and after Salvation?

    Before and after any Conviction as well?

    Then I must have been fed a lie by some unholy preaching. and that call to repentance that I recieved in my heart, really can’t be for something I’ve already received.

    But,I came to repentance anyhow and found forgiveness, where I found a new slate wiped clean and free, and a New Life freshly birthed.

    Why make even the sinners prayer, completely useless for any repentance and forgiveness, just to fit your sermon?

    You also take the first words of many confessions and rip them apart because they start with, “Forgive me father for I have sinned…”

    What is first required according to you to receive forgiveness according to the bible you have read?

    Luke 13:3,5 (NIV)
    Acts 3:19 (NIV)
    Mark 1:4 (NIV)
    Mark 11:25 (NIV)

    Then, I have another problem about this blanket statement, that all sins are already forgiven, this is according to the scripture, if one blasphemes the Holy Spirit there is no forgiveness for that.

    Someone is twisting the truth here, or everyone ever born, meaning all the saved and the unsaved alike who ever walked the earth/world, are guilty but already forgiven, yet many are still being convicted daily?

    Kind of makes me wonder… why there is any discusion about a Mark of Forgiveness at all, if forgiveness not needed.

    Gary

  49. poohpity says:

    Gary, so Jesus did not die for the forgiveness of sins until you realized you were a sinner?

  50. Artle says:

    Jesus ministry on earth was to the Jewish people who were still under the Law of Moses. His teachings always included adhering to Moses’ instructions. His final instructions to the Eleven included teaching people to “observe all that I commanded you” (Matthew 28:20 NASB). All that He commanded certainly included following the Law of Moses. The Apostles clearly followed the Law of Moses and expected it from new believers. How is it that adhering to the Law of Moses was later dropped by the Twelve as a requirement for non-Jewish believers? This is explained by Acts 15 and clearly shows that an extremely significant change had occurred in the relationship of God and Man. The change was brought to light by the Gospel preached by Paul. The revelation that Paul received from Jesus was different than the instructions given to the Eleven (Galatians 1:11-12 NASB), and Paul often referred to it as a mystery that had been kept from the beginning or ages long past.

    A few verses that pertain to us today related to being saved:

    Acts 15:11 NASB
    Ephesians 2:5 NASB
    Ephesians 2:8 NASB
    2 Timothy 1:9 NASB

    All of this comment is taken directly from scripture. Take it for what it is worth to you. If it does not make sense, talk to Luke, Paul and/or Jesus.

  51. BruceC says:

    I once heard someone explain the grace, mercy, and forgiveness of God through Christ as a gift that was all wrapped up in fancy paper and bows. The gift is offered to all; but few open it to find out what is inside and accept it. And just like a gift it does no good unless it’s opened.

    BruceC
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  52. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    I hope you are all well. I was going to share my thoughts on some of the comments on this blog last night but I fell asleep. I stopped by before getting ready for work to pray that you all will have a spirit-filled day in the LORD.
    foreverblessed – I agree with you in thanking God for my speedy recovery! Some friends were praying for me (I didn’t tell any family members that I didn’t feel well). I only had a few more symptoms on Monday and yesterday, but nothing that prevented me from going to work, taking care of chores, etc.
    This is a great blog topic!

    Love to all…

    ps. High 50’s in today in Texas.

  53. foreverblessed says:

    God bless you Regina!
    Pooh was saying she has forgiven her brother even though he has not said sorry.
    SO Pooh has forgiven but there is not a normal relation yet.
    There is forgiveness and there is
    reconciliation
    2 Cor 5:18
    2 Cor 5:19
    Rom 5:11
    I believe only the reconciled with God, through Jesus’ Cross, can go to heaven, and it is our business to live a life so wonderful, and full of God’s love that many will be drawn to God through us, so that he many will be go to heaven.
    But those who are not yet reconciled, I resonate with what Steve wrote, God is the judge, leave it to Him, and my question is: will there be no Mercy on the day of Judgment?

  54. poohpity says:

    forever, made another attempt this morning for reconciliation with my brother, thank you for the prompting.

  55. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… again, I believe Christ died for the sins of the world, or to take away the sins of the world.

    But, we all know that sin “still exists” in the world.

    So, we will never meet on that point either!

    So, I’ll ask you this, “In your thinking is sin already taken away, or does it still exist?

    Does man still live in his wrong choices of sin and darkness, or have his choices been taken away?

    If man still has his freewill choice to choose sin and sin is already taken away, something does not add up.

    One must use funny math to equate that mankind can still choose something that is no longer available.

    If sin no longer exists, because it is already taken away, then why would there be any future judgment for sinners?

    How many other ways do you want me to tell you this fact, this world is still filled with sin.

    You have told me once, that if I said I never sinned any more that I would be a liar.

    Now you are saying that sin is already taken away.

    If you deny that sin still exists, then you deny your own words and yourself, and others who agree with you, knowing that there is much more truth about sin’s existence revealed in the world as well.

    We can not resolve this problem of twisted thining here,
    for we can not continue to debate something that does not exist, can we?

  56. Artle says:

    John the Baptist preached repentance (Matthew 3:1-2 NASB), a forerunner to Jesus doing the same (Matthew 4:17 NASB). Many today preach the same message, but why. What purpose was the sacrifice of Jesus if the way to salvation was to remain the same? Think about it!!!!

    Paul never once in his letters used the word repent in reference to what a person needs to do and also states he was not sent to baptize. The cross is the difference. Before the cross, salvation depends on what the individual does. After the cross, salvation depends on what God does. Since Jesus canceled the debt on the cross (Colossians 2:13-14 NASB), the individual no longer needs to do it on their own. This is how Jesus became the way, the truth and the life.

    Without Jesus, the only way is the Law of Moses; obedience, repentance, baptism, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. With Jesus, the old ways have been put away and the Grace of God prevails.

    It seems to me that if you believe in Jesus, everything that would have been required before His sacrifice is satisfied. If you do not believe in Jesus, nothing is satisfied. So in a simplified complex sort of way, sin both exists and does not exist, depending on whether you believe or not. This is why I said a person could be forgiven and yet die in their sins. The debt is already paid, all that needs be done is pick up the receipt (believe).

  57. oneg2dblu says:

    Artle… thanks for revisiting this subject as it was part of my thinking earlier in the day about our condition and our actions pre-salvation and after.
    Was thinking exactly how the Law is to be affecting us and our witness after we repent.
    In Pre-salvation the Law was useless to us other than to convict us for we could never have the strength to keep through the Law with the “spirit of self” that lived in us.
    After salvation, we should unerstand that we have another Spirit, that can give us the strength to overcome even the world and obey the Law, from which it gets it’s direction and power freely given to us who have repented from the way in which we “were” walking.

    That very change, or our turning or repenting which can not be hidden as a lamp under a bowl, is the evidence of the Possession of the Holy Spirit, God;s light in us.

    Regardless what you beleive, you can only live in your old spirit if you first deny the newer one.

    YYour Christian walk may be as different as your beliefs system which now denies the power given to those Laws for us, and for us to will and change as God’s Law we can now obey, and the disobedience of those who refuse to acknowledge the difference and say they do not have to, to me, is the tragedy of modern Christianity and its modern doctrines.

    In that light, all of Pauls teachings to the churches that still press the warnings of obedience to the law that keeps us from sinning if we only obey, are God’s words given to him for us, those who are saved.

    Christ said that he did not come to take away the law, not even one jot or tittle, but to fulfill it.

    If that means we have freedom to ignore the law, then we travel a perilour path on our own, for that freedom can not be of the Holy Spirit, which we have living in us.

    We confuse the “certain death’ issue connected our past condition, to the new found ability to walk in the obedience power given to us in our new life.

    The Law has not lost any of its ability to bring about right living through obedience, only its death sentence
    was removed, but it is still death to those who are unsaved, and unforgiven.
    Gary

  58. Artle says:

    Gary, I don’t think are ideas are that far apart. The essential difference is I believe God does it thru Grace for me and you believe God gives you strength to do it yourself. Not sure that isn’t the same gift that we simply see from our own perspective.

    On forgiveness, what is the difference between having a guaranteed forgiveness upon repentance or forgiveness already in place that is found when one believes in Christ? Is repentance more important than believing in the One who forgives?

    This is a good topic which I will continue if we keep it thoughtful.

  59. Artle says:

    Gary, When you refer to obeying the Law, what Law are we looking at? Is this an all inclusive, every commandment ever given Law, or a specific Law like the Law of Moses or Law of Christ? Just want to make sure we are looking at the same thing.

  60. oneg2dblu says:

    Artle…I only speak to the Laws that Christ said he did not come to take away, not even the tiniest part.
    But, you already read that.

  61. poohpity says:

    How easily I often forget that I bare the mark of being forgiven. I pray it may be indelibly marked within my heart so that my love for the Lord and others will grow.

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