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The Confessions of Augustine

Mart De Haan Posted by Mart De Haan
February 23rd, 2010
119 Comments » 

A couple of nights ago I stumbled onto a classic: The Confessions of St Augustine of Hippo who lived 354-430 AD.

A few pages into his story, I found myself gripped by the mind and heart of someone who in his youth broke his mothers heart… only to become a lover of the God he once ran from.

Looking back, a man who had once lost himself in sexual adventure lived to write,

“I will now call to mind my past foulness, and the carnal corruptions of my soul; not because I love them, but that I may love [You], O my God. For love of [Your] love I do it; reviewing my most wicked ways in the very bitterness of my remembrance, that [You may] grow sweet unto me… (Book 2 Chapter 1).

Even more than Augustine’s turn of life, what captured my imagination was the kind of God who satisfied him in ways that gave his life lasting meaning. In chapter 4 of Book 1 of his confessions he describes the wonder, and mystery of a certainty that now compelled him to write,

“Who is God [but] our God? … Most merciful, yet most just… most hidden, yet most present… most beautiful, yet most strong… stable, yet incomprehensible… unchangeable, yet all-changing… never new, never old…all-renewing… bringing age upon the proud, and they know it not… ever working, ever at rest…still gathering, yet nothing lacking… supporting, filling, and overspreading…creating, nourishing, and maturing… seeking, yet having all things…

[You] love, without passion… [are] jealous, without anxiety… [repent], yet [without grieving]… [are] angry, yet serene… [while changing Your] works, [Your] purpose [remains] unchanged… [receive] again what [You find], yet [did] never lose… never in need, yet rejoicing in gains… never covetous, yet exacting usury…

[You receive] over and above, that [You may] owe… and who [has anything] that is not [Yours’]? …[You pay] debts, owing nothing… [forgiving] debts, losing nothing.… And what had I now said, my God, my life, my holy joy? Or what [says] any man when he speaks of Thee?… Yet woe to him that [speaks] not, since mute are even the most eloquent.

Adapted from: Augustine, S., Bishop of Hippo, & Pusey, E. B. (1996). The confessions of St. Augustine. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

These quotes remind me of what Jesus said to Simon the Pharisee when he objected to the fact that Jesus let a woman of the street make a “fool of herself” by pouring fragrant oil on Jesus, and kissing the Teacher’s feet.

In response Jesus told a story about two debtors— whose debts were both forgiven by their creditor when they had no ability to pay. Since one debtor had owed far more than the other, Jesus asked Simon which debtor he thought would love the creditor more. When Simon came up with the right answer Jesus said, “Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.” (Luke 7:47).

What I don’t think Jesus was saying is that any of us owed less than Augustine, or the woman at Jesus feet– before we were forgiven… For our Lord also said, “to whom much is given, much shall be required” (Luke 12:48).


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119 Responses to “The Confessions of Augustine”

  1. Lively says:
    February 23, 2010 at 8:44 am

    Just an observation of the correlating stories – both the sinners recognized their sins and “wept” (Augustine perhaps not literally, but likely as your quote of his story included “bitterness of remembrance”) in anguish. Whereas the Pharisee didn’t even give Jesus the normal deference afforded a guest.

    Luke 7:46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

    Not that I would presume to add to the Word of God, but it would be logical to add “for you love little” to the end of Luke 7:47. For me, the implication looms at the end of His statement, but Jesus was too much of a gentleman to point out the obvious to His host.

    These have been difficult passages for me in the past, on the surface it would appear that those who have delighted in debauchery in the past gain more “favor” in the Lords eyes than those whom have lived righteous lives since the get go. But I’ve come to an understanding (at least I believe I have) that these numerous stories of those who have severely fallen short, who need God’s mercy and most of all his GRACE, as they more than others have sinned most grievously unto Him will be loved and accepted into His fold the same as those who have not fallen so deeply into the ways of sin.

    I suppose that it is the difference of being thirsty and being parched. When you are thirsty, a cool drink of water tastes fine, but if you are parched that same water would be like mana from heaven.

  2. foreverblessed says:
    February 23, 2010 at 9:17 am

    This indeed has been a difficult one for me too. When you have been raised in church, and out of love obey God. Do we then have to go out and really sin, so to be forgiven more?
    I couldn’t do that anyway.
    But now I believe that we who have not gone out and do those sins as Augustine did, we were all the same just as lost.
    1 John 2: 16 sins to please the flesh, to please the eyes and to please the mind.
    I was more of the sins of the mind, being proud of my intellect. That is just in the same being lost as was Augustine.
    When I begon to see how fallen I was in that state, I begin to realise how much GOd loved me, and so I will love more too.

  3. scout1 says:
    February 23, 2010 at 11:05 am

    I also had a difficult time understanding those Bible stories. It made me a little sad thinking that I am such an average person with no “big sins” in my lifetime, that maybe I would not be able to “love much”. But, I know that it must be all relative. For me, what sins I had and have are unacceptable and “big” for me, just as they are seen by God. Any sin is sin in God’s eyes. I think the attitude of the woman in the story so wonderfully reflects her heart (the most important part to God.) That’s where you are truly see why she “loved much”. Mart, thank you for all the DOD videos. I will never be able to go to Israel and see all the things you show. I have really, really enjoyed seeing the area and it has helped me get a better understanding of what the people went through in the Bible because I can now see where they lived and the lifestyle of that time. It really makes the time back then come alive. I have been able to share so much with my kids in Childrens’ Church. Thank you.

  4. poohpity says:
    February 23, 2010 at 11:31 am

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the difference being if we look at other people one may tend to feel like one sin is worse than another. Those who look within and compare themselves to the Lord know how much they fall short but if one looks around at others then they will find those that they may feel better (holier) than someone else. We are not to compare ourselves to our peers but to the Lord and His Holiness then we realize how much we fall short. There is only One who is without sin and that is Jesus Christ.

    At one point in my relationship with the Lord I started thinking that I was elevated in some way to those who were not shown much mercy and forgiveness only to find I started thinking of myself like the Pharisees instead of one still needing daily mercy and forgiveness. All the bible knowledge, education, success, money or anything else just takes our eyes off of who we ALL truly are compared to Christ. We ALL fall short of the Glory of God.

    If we are covered by the blood of the Lamb we are still prone to sin and the minute one thinks they are not then they call God a liar. I believe the responsibility then lies with letting people know that we have nothing to boast about only how much forgiveness we receive daily even moment by moment. We ALL stand at the foot of the Cross as equal in need of a Savior. Take a daily inventory of yourself and count how many times a day you think a wrong thought, lie, are angry at someone, want something some else has, call someone a name, put anything else above the Lord and really look hard at yourself. You will see exactly how holy you are.

  5. xrgarza says:
    February 23, 2010 at 11:32 am

    Lively & Scout1,
    I agree with you, I find it interesting that in the past when I would share my testimony with other Christians that had lived a life with boundaries and had not experienced a “sin filled life” almost seemed to be a bit arrogant, I had one person tell me that her life was not tainted like my life was.

    I personally believe that what the public/Christian public calls huge maybe different than what’s huge to me. If my sin seemed small to the world but it seemed huge to me, then scripture is correct when it says that whom has forgiven much will love much. Being freed from our battle should never be compared to the battle of others because our measuring stick will never be the same as God’s measuring stick.

    Xavier

  6. rokdude5 says:
    February 23, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    One of the things that strucked my heart, Mart, is where you wrote, “a man who had once lost himself in sexual adventure lived to write..” Talk about the love of God and His grace. During Augustine’s waywardness, Our Father could have struck him right then and there but He let Augustine lived. I got a feeling Augustine eventually realized that as well which in turn, deepen his love for Him.

    Also, I, too, was raised in a church. I have to check myself not to become resentful like the prodigal son’s brother but extend the same welcome back home. I am reminded in Luke 15:31,’My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.’ With a Father like that, it is a great cause of celebration when the lost is found!!

  7. foreverblessed says:
    February 23, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    To whom much is given much is required.
    To many of us, having grown up in a loving christian home, that can be considered as “much is given”. It is through GOd’s grace that we were born into a loving family. That was to no merit of our own.
    What would we have been were we to have been born in a war torn country, where people always fight.
    It would have been a much bigger miracle would we have been a nice loving person in such a surrounding.
    So no comparing with others, as Pooh stated.
    God is a right and merciful Judge.

  8. rxman says:
    February 23, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    Didn’t Jesus say that He came to save the sick and not those that were well? I think the women that washed Jesus’s feet realized that she was “sick” and needed healing whereas Simon, who probably did all the proper “religious” things, thought of himself as “well”.

    Look at what Paul said about being being born into the proper family, being Jew of Jews, doing all the right things. Yet he considered himself to be the biggest sinner of all time.

    I think the women that annointed Jesus’s feet came to that realization easier that someone who has lived a righteous life.

  9. poohpity says:
    February 23, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    You are so right that being raised in a LOVING Christian home is a blessing and can be considered “much given”. I can not even begin to tell you the wisdom in that statement. Being raised in a home that the love I received had to be earned by the things I did and based on the expectations of my parents. I was so glad to be re-parented with a unconditional love of the Lord but it does not totally take away the harm done by my parents.

  10. Lively says:
    February 23, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    Pooh – being so very human I do tend to measure myself by the yardstick of others – I’m so grateful that God doesn’t do it. And not just sin issues, either. Issues of self doubt have dogged my heels all my life – and I did grow up in a healthy happy fairly Christian home. Even the postings here can be a struggle for me – I often write them in Word and I’d say 25% or more of my replies end up as some fragment on my computer’s hard drive. I’m actually seriously considering wiping this one now, but I suppose I won’t.

    I actually think this touches on one of your pet peeves – taking verse out of context – a step further; that you must “proof” scripture with scripture. Alone, Luke might indicate that there are different “levels” of sin, whereas James 2:10 says that if you stumble on one point of the law, you break them all. My “ah ha” moment for Luke was understanding that Luke 7 36:43 cannot be taken alone, it is balanced by verses 44:48 in that they are the completion of the lesson. This is my understanding of the lesson; the sinful woman who wept at His feet loved Him so dearly that her faith alone saved her, whereas the man who kept the Law and didn’t feel he carried the same “debt” of sin didn’t have love for the Lord.

    It seems to me that both St. Augustine and the harlot knew that it is the acceptance that they were in sin as that allowed them the love and faith to be saved as opposed to Simon’s superior attitude, that was made clear in the story not only by his thoughts but by his deeds as well. It is very telling in the story that the sinner did all “loving” things, such as washing feet, greeting with a kiss, anointing with oil (unless I’m mistaken, weren’t those the customs of the time for an honored guest?) Although he called Jesus, “teacher” he had no respect or love for him.

    I hope I made sense – my thoughts seem to be a bit disjointed today.

  11. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 23, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    Good post that leads me to examine my love for Jesus Christ! In Luke 7 Jesus teaches that the more people are forgiven, the more they will love God and others. The woman had been forgiven much and she loved much. Her love was not limited to words but was proved by her actions towards Jesus.

    She stood behind Him at His feet weeping. This was to express a broken hearted confession and her extreme sorrow for her sins. If I have experienced the forgiveness of Jesus, then what is the expression in my tears that I weep in the presence of Jesus? Are they tears of sorrow for my sins or tears of self-pity for my ego broken by sin?

    She began to wet his feet with her tears. This spoke of her love for the One who wept tears for her sins at Gethsemane. What do my tears that I shed at His feet speak of? Are they tears that speak of my intense love for Him…the One who deeply sorrows for me and my sins? Or are they tears of anger and hurt to self-love because my prayers are not answered my sickness is not healed and my needs and desires are not fulfilled?

    She wiped His feet with her hair. This was in gratitude for those feet which were pierced with nails for her feet that walked the way of sin. Am I grateful for the nail pierced feet of my savior or are my feet still being swift to turn back to the way of sin and whore after the things of this world?

    She kissed his feet and poured perfume on them—an utmost devotion to the One who gave His life for her. Is my life marked with a fragrant devotion to serve the Lord Jesus Christ or is it devoted to seek my will and serve my own happiness?

    Simon neither experienced broken heartedness nor the need to repent from his sins. Simon chose to serve Jesus with his self-centered opinion of a lavish dinner. He was so full of himself that he did not wash the feet of his guest, kiss His cheek and anoint His head with oil.

    It is not that Simon committed less sins but he was never aware of his many sins. Hence he never sought forgiveness and because he never knew the joy of being forgiven he displayed a callous attitude to withhold forgiveness from others. It is sinful pride of not knowing how great a sinner I am that makes me nurse bitterness and prevents me from readily forgiving those who have grievously hurt or sinned against me.

    To whom much is given, much is required. If He has shown me much grace and mercy, will I continue to sit in the pit crying out for His grace and mercy? If He has blessed me with much …in fact given me His all, is there anything that is too costly that I would ever hold back from Him?

    Today when the Simons of this world look down on the body of forgiven sinners—The Church—prostrate at the feet of Jesus, do we hear our Savior telling “it is because her sins—and they are many—have been forgiven, so she shows Me much love”?!

  12. poohpity says:
    February 23, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    I no longer sit in the PIT crying out for grace in mercy. I now kneel at the Cross and cry out for His grace and mercy realizing that I need it everyday of my life.

  13. bubbles says:
    February 23, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    People who have been blessed to have been raised in a Christian home should REALLY be circumspect when they are even ‘thinking’ about how their lives haven’t been touched by sin. That thinking can easily turn into a form of pride when they compare themselves to others.
    Sin is sin in the eyes of God. All sin is repugnant to Him. God hates a proud look. Who are we to compare our sinful lives to anyone else? Yes, for some reason, some were born to Christian parents, saved at an early age, and were not permitted/chose not to get mixed up in many sinful activities. But, what of the sins of the heart and mind? Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it? Looks like when an individual that has led a very sin-filled life is saved, that would cause other believers to greatly rejoice that He accepted the Lord, and not compare that life to theirs.
    God’s grace is greater than all of our sins. People who haven’t participated in a sin-filled lifestyle can always be humbly thankful they were spared from the problems sin can cause. They should remember, “that could’ve very easily been me.”

    I’m sure it would grieve the heart of God to see any of His children with a proud look because they haven’t participated in a sinful lifestyle when they compare themselves to another precious believer who had a sinful life before they came to know Jesus. Isn’t He concerned about our hearts/attitudes once we are His and not what we were before?

    One more thing: when one looks at a sin, and says, “Eww.I would never do that. . .” needs to be careful, because we are all human. We still have the old nature that is still drawn to sin. Pride goes before a fall.

  14. bubbles says:
    February 23, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    Pooh, totally agree with you. We DO need His mercy and grace every day. Praise God that His mercies are new every day. No matter how ‘clean’ our hearts appear to us, compared to an all-holy God, we desperately need that mercy.

  15. poohpity says:
    February 23, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    Yes bubbles. If we are ever in doubt of the continuing need for grace and mercy then we have not taken a very realistic view of ourselves compared to Jesus, have we!

  16. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 23, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    I was going to keep out of this topic as I have a busy week with job interviews and legal meetings, but I just want to say a little about my own experience.
    I was not brought up with any religion and quit Sunday school at 6 years old and never really understood more than the “Fairy Tale” of the nativity.
    Now when I met Jesus at 16 years old He amazed me and I was filled with a passionate zeal, but I did not feel I had really done much wrong and had very little sense of sin or repentance. Now after my prodical wanderings and so called Sexual drug and alcoholic adventures. I feel far more lowly and scum like and appreciate exactly what Jesus has done for me. It has taken me 40 years as a new born, then a prodical and now a found lost sheep and lots of wandering around my mountains to know how much I am loved by my Father and only now am I begining, just a little, to love Him back.
    The only way I can love Him is by obeying Him. It is a Will and not a feeling thing and comes from deep in the heart.
    When I have approached christians who have been all their lives in a church and have never really strayed or even had a glass of wine and ask for advice about alcohol or gay feeling etc. they really have no idea what it is all about.
    While I don’t condone a life of sin and sex, how can we possibly understand and help others without once being in the same pit ourselves.
    There is no greater sin or lesser sin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but unless we know deep down what we have been saved from we cannot repent and turn our lives and love over to Him.
    I hope I have not just been rambling and make a little sense to someone here.

    Bob

  17. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 23, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Good thoughts, Bob! Praying for your job interviews and legal meetings…

    Another thought on one of the favorite love stories of mine…

    The woman had to untie her hair in order to wipe the feet of Jesus. Don’t know about this culture but in other cultures elsewhere, it is considered a shame for a woman to let her hair down in public.

    Obviously, after being delivered from the shame of striding along the street of sin, the forgiven sinner no longer cared about the shame of being passionately devoted to her Savior!

    The Apostles counted it a joy to suffer shame for Christ’s name (Acts 5:41). And when I consider the shame of the cross that Christ suffered for my sins, I am also not ashamed if the world sees me as a fool because of my passionate zeal to serve Jesus!

  18. Lively says:
    February 23, 2010 at 7:35 pm

    Xavier –

    That kind of person is the person who should listen to the words, take heed lest ye fall! lol I don’t delight in the sins of my past, but I am thankful that the Lord used my misdeeds to shape the person I am today.

    Anyone who lives in this world has a tainted life as it is a tainted world.

    Stacy

  19. bubbles says:
    February 23, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    You know, Bob, perhaps the Lord will put someone across your path that is struggling with something that you have lived through. Your life experiences may be a kind empathy that God can use to help bring another one to him. Seems like He can use our weaknesses or difficult times in our lives to help others directly, or our deeper level of understanding can give one more compassion than someone who hasn’t experienced the problem.

    It is always nice to have someone say they completely understand because they have been there.

    (p.s. Oh, how I wish I could visit England. Have always wanted to. When I was very young, may parents were planning to go, but my mother died. End of the dream. If I actually got to go, I’d be so happy, I’d cry:)

  20. Anna777 says:
    February 24, 2010 at 12:27 am

    Bob – You’re “rambling” makes perfect sense to me. I have shared my testimony on past blogs so won’t repeat it here. I actually can thank God for bringing me through the experiences I went through, because as you said,” There is no greater sin or lesser sin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but unless we know deep down what we have been saved from we cannot repent and turn our lives and love over to Him.”

    My new life (9 years) in Christ is a sharp contrast to my “previous” life. I take no joy in my past sin. I too have a crystal clear awareness of what Jesus did for me.

    At the risk of sounding simplistic, I think trying to find some commonality with believers based on specific sins can be wrought with danger. I do understand what you are saying ( I think!) But just as you said “Sin is sin”, I say to you, “Sin is sin. While I might be comforted to hear of testimonies of other believers who have “seen the dark side”,and come to know Jesus, I have learned that just taking it right to the cross is absolutely the most effective thing I can do when it comes to rebuking temptation of any kind. I don’t have to worry about God’s guidance being corrupted or tainted. He will never fail. And he knows our hearts better than we know ourselves!

    Personally, however, I believe that our past really has nothing to do with our ability to see our sinfulness before the Father. It’s not about looking to our past, it’s about looking to the Cross. We are all called to the cross by the power of the Holy Spirit. He convicts our hearts of our sin – and it all grieves His Spirit. I am, however, keenly aware of what a lost soul I was! I think that many wonderful Christians have lost their way by trying to “identify with the lost”. Having been really lost I choose to focus on the Cross.

    Anna

  21. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 24, 2010 at 2:32 am

    Anna

    I can’t agree with you more!
    The life we live is not our own, but belongs to Christ Jesus, Messiah.
    We die with Him and put ourselves on the Cross (Baptism) and rise with him to new life in the Holy Spirit.
    Then we take up our cross and follow Him. This is a daily experience (foot washing).
    “It is not I that lives but Christ that lives in me”

    Our guest speaker on Sunday said this:

    “We should plan our lives as if we are going to live forever, because we are! and we should live our lives as if it is our last day on Earth, because one day it will be!.”
    And in David Roper’s Our Daily Bread reading the other day, he talked of the “Mustering out feeling”.
    We have all had that, on a Friday after noon or when about to take a vacation etc.
    How wonderful to be able to live life with that continual “spring in our step” because nothing can harm us or effect us because we are actually dead to our own feelings but ALIVE to Christ Jesus!!!!

    Bob

  22. Anna777 says:
    February 24, 2010 at 3:53 am

    Amen! Brother! I praise God for your “realness”. (Not that others on this blog are not real as well!) But I do appreciate the total lack of pretense. Something about going through the valley… it makes one rather forthright! Can’t waste time!

    And yes we are short timers and look so forward to seeing all of my Christian brothers and sisters in heaven some day! I read that devotion as well. It’s going to rock!

    Anna

  23. Lively says:
    February 24, 2010 at 7:41 am

    This might cause a bit of discussion, but I feel compelled to say; although I STRONGLY believe that sin is sin and ALL sin is an affont to God – I don’t think all sins are equal, anymore.

  24. rxman says:
    February 24, 2010 at 7:57 am

    Bubbles,

    I have to disagree with you when you say we still have our old nature within us after we are saved. The NT says that when we are saved the old self is killed and we are a new creation, with a new heart. I suppose this is a topic for another time but I would direct you to read a book called, THE NAKED GOSPEL by Andrew Farley. It was an eye opener for me.

  25. mjday says:
    February 24, 2010 at 9:20 am

    Mart, kudos to you for dealing with Augustine’s Confessions. I have made several attempts, without much success.

    His writings are said to be second only to those of Paul’s in developing the Christian faith. I’ll dust off my copy and give it another try.

  26. SFDBWV says:
    February 24, 2010 at 9:50 am

    Mart, I wish to thank you for your introduction of St Augustine. Have head of him but knew nothing of him.

    Have read some of his biography, and found myself enjoying his story.

    Haven’t finished it all as there is a great deal of reading to *catch up*. But I was struck by the fact that his mother continualy pressured him to become a Christian, well into his 30’s. That soon after he did convert and had his own son convert, that his mother died, as well as his son.

    Was also drawn to the fact that he sent his *concubine* away after 13 years of living with her, so that he could be able to marry the 11 year old girl his mother had arranged for him to marry. As soon as she become of age.

    Not being able to wait for 2 years he took another concubine to fulfill his needs. Breaking off the marriage arrangements.

    Hearing a childlike voice, telling him to “open and read the book”. He realized it was not an earthly voice, and came to the Book of Romans, and was lead to the chaste life he took up.

    What has struck me about Augustine, is that he is like us, or rather we are like him. In that we al fall down, make mistakes, err, but then if we listen to that little voice….life changing power awaits us.

    Bubbles, Paul spends a great deal of time telling us that the old nature is dead, crucified with Christ. Yet he also tells us that there is a conflict warring against our members. Romans 7:7 thru :25 Also I believe that the conflict will continue to lessen as we give more and more of ourselves over to Christ. But the conflict will remain until we are completed. This shows the Holy Spirit at work within our members.

    Steve

  27. InHisHands says:
    February 24, 2010 at 9:57 am

    I am sorry if I do not respond to the topic, right now, but I am seeking your prayers – still – for my son. The court has held him, bond is high, and he has a public defender. The lawyers, we can’t afford, all agree that the case is a bit ‘bizzare’, as he should have been taken to a psych facility. We are at the end of our resources – tho’ I have given all to the LORD, I still fret humanly. My faith is in God, but I am seeing the human system and need to regain spiritual eyes, to see that God is in control, and He has already seen the end results – and they will bring Him honor and glory.

    Thank you for your prayers –

  28. Anna777 says:
    February 24, 2010 at 10:13 am

    Lively,

    Quick note, when I said I believed “Sin is sin”, I meant it in the context that any and all of it separates us from God. And God’s power to forgive and restore is the same for any sinner (me) no matter what they’ve done.

    I do believe that there are differences in sin in many ways. Just a few would be the degree of separation from God that it would take to engage in certain sins. Some sins impact others more deeply than others. And for some the “road of repentance” is a very rough road to travel because of the sins one might choose to committ. Some sins, more than others, require a great deal more healing and restoration from the Father. And, in my case, the path back wasn’t easy at all but it was well worth it.

    I apologize for not making that clear in my post.

    I hope this makes sense! I’m going into my 3rd day of no sleep due to a family emergency. I feel kind of scattered.

    Thanks for keeping it real!

    Anna

    I

  29. Lively says:
    February 24, 2010 at 10:17 am

    InHisHands

    Not only are my prayers with you, I understand your conflict having been in a similar bizzare situation within the court system – and I managed to retain a “good” lawyer. Trust Him, I know I shook my head and said, “Why??” a good number of times. I don’t know that I got my answer, but I beleive that good came out of my “trial” – literal and figurative.

    Stacy

  30. phpatato says:
    February 24, 2010 at 10:33 am

    Great insight Foreverblessed on being raised in a Christian home. My thoughts went immediately to the trials and temptations of being “a preacher’s son or daughter”. I can’t imagine the pressures of being one….to be constantly scrutinized, always under the microscope; to know that you are being watched, not only by those in the unsaved world but also by those in the saved world, for any and all missteps; to hear those piercing words “you should have known better”.

    To whom much is given much is required.

    All you have to do is talk to a preacher’s son or daughter to find the truth in that. I am thinking that it isn’t a life for the faint-hearted.

    Lively you said, “I’d say 25% or more of my replies end up as some fragment on my computer’s hard drive”…..I take comfort in that. Mine toooooo!!! lol

  31. poohpity says:
    February 24, 2010 at 11:37 am

    Luke 18:9-14; 9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10″Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
    13″But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
    14″I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    So to say that sin has degrees and not that a sin is a sin that would be a human judgment not God’s. There is one place that I know of that Jesus who is God said that one sin was greater was when He was talking to Pilate. Jesus said, “the one who has handed me over to you has a greater sin”.

    That is the problem with the body of Christ not to recognize that there is no degree to sin when compared to God’s standard. That is what happens to Preachers children and Missionary children that are held to a higher standard then the body itself are able to live. Whoa to anyone who feels like that.

  32. foreverblessed says:
    February 24, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    It all comes down to this:
    For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
    We can be humble because we have been raised in a loving home, because that was given to us by Gods grace. It is all by Gods grace that we have been given a good surrounding, that we have been protected from more harm, and finally also that we have been forgiven.
    It is all due to what God did.
    And if we read what Augustine wrote in his confessions: It is one big Hallelujah to God. It is a lovely song to our Maker.
    We owe everything to Him.
    And if we are a preachers child God will also fill us to meet up to the requirements. Let these things not be as a law, but as a promise: To whom much is given …
    Let others expect what they want, we look up to God, we are as branches attached to Him. Just as everybody else is who believes in Jesus, and follows Him.

  33. phpatato says:
    February 24, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    Just to clarify because I am not sure what is being said…

    I don’t look at preacher’s kids as being higher. I was merely trying to say that this is a reality and that there are many in this world who do look at them as “knowing better” and “shame on them” if they should fall, and there are several preacher’s kids that have buckled under the weight because of the “higher” standard that people have put on them.

    But Forever, you are so right. “God will fill us to meet up to the requirements” of His will for our lives.

  34. poohpity says:
    February 24, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    No matter what kind of home we are brought up in we can be thankful because God speaks to us and calls us from where ever we are even a Christian home as long as we learn that our righteousness is only through the Cross and not from the things we do that seem righteous in our own eyes.

  35. poohpity says:
    February 24, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    phpatato, I was speaking from knowing a preacher’s child and the things he has had to go through which made him shy away from wanting a relationship with Christ because of the horrible microscope that the body put him through. I also speak for myself if I went on the things the body demanded of me I would turn away from Christ myself but thankfully I went on what the bible teaches and not other human beings who feel themselves so righteous when in reality they were no different than me at the foot of the Cross. If I had to go on the judgment and criticism of other so called believers I would walk away from the desire to be a Christian too. Thankfully I only compare myself to Christ and understand that I am a sinner saved by His grace and mercy not by anything I can do.

  36. Lively says:
    February 24, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    Pooh –

    I know what you’re saying. There is no question that all sin is an affront to God – but does that mean that speeding on the road (breaking the law, therefore a sin) is the same as murder?

    I don’t feel that I am “more Christian” because I haven’t commited certian sins – and I strongly disagree with the person that said she was less “tainted” than Bob.

  37. poohpity says:
    February 24, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    Yes , Lively, that is exactly what the bible says. Lying on one’s income tax, taking things from work like pens or anything is sin just like murder. Jesus even went further to say if you have anger in your heart toward someone you have committed murder. Shopping when you can not afford to buy something is coveting. We can justify anything we like but a sin is a sin not because I say so but because God says so. If we can not realize that we are all tainted not compared to each other BUT to God then in all good conscience we would not even begin to think of our self any better than anyone else. No one is any better than anyone else when we all kneel beneath the Cross.

    The Lord called those that think themselves better than others a brood of vipers or white washed tombs.

  38. poohpity says:
    February 24, 2010 at 2:28 pm

    Not saying that you do sweetheart but that is the point we have to come to to realize that we can not think of ourselves more highly than we actually are. That is the heart of those that truly understand who they really are compared to Christ. It is a very, very good place to be.

  39. poohpity says:
    February 24, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    There is only ONE who was and is without sin and that is Jesus Christ and the Good News is that He knew we are unable to live with out sinning and took the wrath of God for us.

  40. Lively says:
    February 24, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Pooh – I just deleted a whole lot of writing, on purpose – my thinking went in a direction that isn’t for this entry :-)

    Suffice to say, I agree that all sin is sin and I don’t think I’m any better than any other sinner.

    Steve – I’m looking at the weather report… I’m praying you’ll get missed. What are your totals running now?

    Stacy

  41. poohpity says:
    February 24, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Lively, by your writing I would have never come to the conclusion that you thought yourself any better than anyone else. You seem to have very humble heart and so enjoy your postings and everyone else on here.

  42. SFDBWV says:
    February 24, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Stacy, we have 236 inches for the season and 112.4 for the month of February….calling for 7-10 inches tonight thru Friday, with continued snow showers for the next several days.

    I am beginning to feel like *Rocky*

    steve

  43. foreverblessed says:
    February 24, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    These are some thoughts I have, they are not scriptures. Just food for thought.
    Are some sins different from others?
    When compared to Jesus, we are all tainted, and not fit to enter heaven. All need to be washed by Jesus’ blood to become white to be able to enter heaven.
    So just as Pooh says.
    On the othere hand, when compared to the opposite,
    Some are a little tainted, and need not have to go to the darkest darkness after they have died. While others have become so black on their souls that they immediately flee out of sight, as far away possible from God. They have a harder way to fight back then those who have lived a life of helping others, and doing good.
    That is what I think Jesus was talking about in Matthew 25:31-46. Here He is talking about all men, not the ones who already had accepted Christ and are His children. (This episode possibly corresponding to Rev 21:11-13.)
    Maybe scripture could be interpreted like this.
    In that sense there is a difference in speeding on the highway, or being involved in the darkest of dark crimes.

  44. Lively says:
    February 24, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    Believe it or not, Pooh in many aspects I’m not a humble person. I’m arrogant and prideful. I struggle against it everyday. I think pride is probably my biggest sin issue – though oddly enough I honestly don’t think myself better than anyone else.

  45. foreverblessed says:
    February 24, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    Steve, you are put in situations which are straining in many ways. Perseverance is one word for you.
    May God give you all the strength you need.

  46. dependent says:
    February 24, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    Steve, that is an amazing amount of snow! What would ‘normal’ accumulations look like this time of year in your neck-o-da-woods?

    May shovels be swift, neighbors be helpful and toes be warm…

  47. pegramsdell says:
    February 24, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    Shoveling rooftops is commonplace nowadays right Steve?
    lol….praying for you and your neighbors Steve.

  48. Anna777 says:
    February 24, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    To my faithful sisters in Christ (and brothers),

    Lively – In your post to Pooh, you mentioned the posting of someone who said she is “Less tainted” than Bob. For convenience I copied and reposted what I said.

    Here is what I said:

    “At the risk of sounding simplistic, I think trying to find some commonality with believers based on specific sins can be wrought with danger. I do understand what you are saying ( I think!) But just as you said “Sin is sin”, I say to you, “Sin is sin. While I might be comforted to hear of testimonies of other believers who have “seen the dark side”,and come to know Jesus, I have learned that just taking it right to the cross is absolutely the most effective thing I can do when it comes to rebuking temptation of any kind. I don’t have to worry about God’s guidance being corrupted or tainted. He will never fail. And he knows our hearts better than we know ourselves!”

    For clarity, what I meant was I believe that as far as our relationship to Christ is concerned, “Sin is Sin” – Christ suffered and died for all of our sins on that day on the Cross. I was not saying that I was “less tainted than Bob”. I was saying that because I believe God can deliver us from any bondage of sin, when we look to him for our source of help we can be sure that his wisdom/guidance is never tainted.

    When it comes to asking forgiveness for sin, I believe “Sin is Sin” in that if one believer is struggling with homosexuality, and another believer is struggling with “sowing discord among the brethren” those are both sins that God can, through his Grace, deliver a person from. It’s always his grace and his working in his life, the power of the Holy Spirit in us, that allows us to be victorious through Christ in our battles.

    When I say that I I believe that there are differences in sin I am referring to the difference in the “harvest” that I (the sinner) reap while I walk daily with Christ.

    I’m going to share a bit of my testimony to illustrate what I mean because I am always thankful when God can be glorified!

    In the days I was running from God, I made choices (divorcing my husband) that would affect the rest of my life. I was mad at God, however, as I have said in the past, the reason I ran doesn’t really mean much. At any rate, because we serve a loving and merciful God, in all of my darkness and loss, God called me back to him. I remember the day and the hour well and all I can say is that God wrote his name on my heart so deep that day, I will never forget it. By his grace I will remain forever faithful to him. I know I am forgiven! Having said that, the pain I caused my family because of my selfishness/sin still “rears it’s ugly head”. In my situation, after I came back to the Lord, my husband and I remarried. Now, when we all get together for family reunions, inevitably topics of discussion come up that refer to things that happened during the time that I was “not in the picture”. That is hurtful to me just because it’s a reminder of my selfishness, it’s not hurtful because anyone is trying to be hurtful ….. I’m just reaping a bit of what I had sown.

    If someone has a history, say of stealing money from an employer. They can confess the sin, repent, make restitution, change their ways and never steal again. They can avoid the possible temptation (if that is a struggle for them) by never having a job that handles money. However, if one is caught up in, say, the sin of homosexuality, they too can confess, repent, get their life right to please God, and move on. The big difference, however, because of the nature of the sin, is that in our society today, their is great pressure on people that have been caught in the sinful labyrinth of homosexuality. The temptation is everywhere, they are surrounded constantly and bombarded constantly by it. It doesn’t mean their sin is “worse” it just means that the struggle (until the victory is won!) may be more evident.

    So, for the thief, perhaps the road of repentance might be more straightforward. For the homosexual, because of the nature of the sin, it might be a much greater struggle because of the way the world is. Having said that, I believe that God is able to deliver us from any sin.

    I hope I made some sense here! You know, it’s pretty evident that we are all focused on the Cross!

    Occasionally I’ll read a comment on here that refers to someone thinking higher of themselves than they should. I pray that nothing I write ever comes through in that way. I know there are probably times when non believers read these blogs. I would always hope that they would see from how we communicate that we all recognize our sin nature and it is because of our acceptance of Christ as our Savior that we are going to Heaven. And that God can and does forgive ANY sin.

    As Bugs Bunny says “That’s all folks!” (I think it was Bugs Bunny!)

    Anna

  49. bubbles says:
    February 24, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    rxman,
    Can I respectfully ask if what you are saying is that when we are saved, we no longer have the desire to sin?

    Maybe I just didn’t understand what you meant. What about when Paul speaks about the struggle within himself to do what was right, but what he did was not right? Sounds like a struggle between the two natures, doesn’t it? The way Scripture reads to me is that we will always have that struggle within us until we reach heaven.

    If the old nature isn’t still there, then why would we EVER sin once we are saved? Yes, we are a new creation, created unto Christ Jesus for good works.
    Doesn’t feeding on the Word of God feed the new man, and help us to want to do what is right in His eyes? The Holy Spirit living within believers is what gives us the power to overcome sin and obey the Lord. Always thought that when we were ‘dead’ to sin, that that meant we weren’t its servant any longer. As a believer matures and comes closer to the Lord, sins that were once committed should be laid aside, but we still sin as long as we are in this earthly body? Wouldn’t the ‘want to’ to sin, come only from that nature we were born with?

    Again,rxman, I am not trying to be contrary, just trying to understand what you said, and explain what was said on this end. Please don’t think that I am trying to be unkind, unloving, or sow seeds of discord here. really.

    The last thing I want to do is cause hurt feelings or problems here.

  50. dependent says:
    February 24, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    It is interesting to me that Jesus used an illustration that nicely fit the finely-tuned ‘compare and judge’ mindset of the Pharisees. These guys turned hypocritical judging into a fine art…here, he’s judging both the woman and Jesus.

    Jesus’ example made it clear that *both* were indebted and both couldn’t pay. While the amounts were different, the smaller debt was still a large amount (one commentary says about 2 months pay). Both owed, both couldn’t pay, but both received grace.

    It’s like Jesus was saying: ‘Ok, buddy. You want to pass judgement in your heart? Now let’s compare things out in the open.’ And proceeds to lavish praise on the ‘sinner’ while comparing the host’s actions. Wonder if this guy ever understood.

    I note that Jesus referred to her ‘many’ sins, not the ‘degree’ of sin.

    I think that scripture makes it clear that *any* sin in our lives deserves the wrath of a holy God. The Pharisees only focused on the visible, outward sins while ignoring/diminishing the filth in their inner lives. (That sort of pride and hardness of heart is something most, if not all of us wrestle with.)

    The ‘Sermon on the Mount’ pretty much exposed the fallacy that sin is confined to outward acts, as Pooh pointed out. And while some sins may cause more damage to ourselves and others in this life, it is ALL a debt that we can’t pay. It is pride that blinds us to those areas of our lives that fall short of the glory of God. We can become very adept at polishing our outward lives so as to convince ourselves and everyone else that we are ‘good’.

    It’s easier to rationalize away or camoflauge(sp?) our ‘inner’ sins like, greed, coveteousness, bitterness, gluttony, bearing false witness, etc. Stuff that is all too clear to God, but not as easy to discern by us.

    I believe that’s why Jesus spent so much time teaching about the reciprocal nature (and dangers) of judging other people’s hearts. The True Judge will deal with us according to the manner we pass judgements on His servants. The Apostles followed up with similar warnings about judging one another’s hearts/motives.

    Which makes the discussion of conscience and sin in Romans 14 so relevant to the question: “Just exactly what is sin when I am comparing my conscience with another’s actions?”

    I think where a lot of people miss it is when they assume the role of OT prophets, with their brethern, and forget the NT role of the Holy Spirit who is a far superior ‘personal’ discerner, convictor, rebuker of one’s heart.

  51. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 24, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    Been thinking of “a man who had once lost himself in sexual adventure” and “the kind of God who satisfied him in ways that gave his life lasting meaning”…

    God looks for the fruits of repentance (Matt. 3:8) Real repentance leads to conversion and conversion is always evidence by fruits—marked by good works, good character and a good lifestyle which then helps me live a good life of lasting meaning.

    I know this will blow a hole in the current popular trend of a gospel that preaches forgiveness without the need for repentance from sins. Without repentance there is no regeneration, no transformation and no conversion!

    This explains the endemic afflicting the Church… filled with so-called Christians that practise habitual sins to not just hurt ourselves but to also cause hurt and eventually kill others.

    This comment is not meant for anyone on this blog but for the leadership out there that have been appointed to teach God’s Word. If you don’t convey the whole truth, then the blood of those who die in their sins will be required in your hands. If you rightly teach the truth then those who deny the truth, reject it at their own peril… meanwhile you have saved your own souls and will be doubly rewarded for your faithfulness by the Chief Shepherd!

    Forget the rewards… if you say you love people, what kind of a shepherd’s heart loves to watch its flock blindly grope around in darkness and plunge into the depths of death?

    No matter how much you try to patch it up with all your fancy pastoral and counselor services…it will not heal and it will never bring back to life that which is already dead. And my spirit simply refuses to buy this as love.

  52. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 24, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    To come back to the topic of confessions that leads to genuine conversion…

    In Luke 7, meeting with Jesus brought about the woman’s repentance which in turn was proved by fruits. She was ‘convicted’ of her sinful lifestyle. This caused a deep godly sorrow out of a ‘contrite’ and broken heart.

    This further led her to loathe her sinful past to ‘confess’ her sins and at the same time it also made her to resolve and let go of her sins in exchange for a better course of life which only Jesus could offer…and that is how she gets truly converted!

    Simon had his own ideas concerning what was right or wrong. He was not wrong in his beliefs because he followed the laws of Moses…which required sinners to work their way into the favor of God and that by doing good works salvation is earned.

    Jesus used the story of the two debtors to help Simon see the truth. And it did help Simon to “judge correctly”. However, there is more to this than meets the eye. Jesus wanted to teach this important truth i.e. the absolute whole truth: Works without faith is dead works and faith without works is dead faith!

  53. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 24, 2010 at 6:29 pm

    Simon did not realize that his Holy works without faith in Christ is like filthy rags in the sight of God. And so, Jesus said to Simon: “Do you see this woman?” What was Simon supposed to see in the woman?

    Jesus wanted Simon to see that his faith in his holiness was self-serving…it did not produce any works for Jesus…works like: “You did not give me any water for my feet, you did not give me a kiss, you did not put oil on my head”

    On the other hand, the woman did not take a free ride on the work which Jesus was going to finish on her behalf. Her faith in Jesus was also supported by her works: “she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair, she has not stopped kissing my feet, she has poured perfume on my feet”.

    Now, that does not mean Jesus was impressed simply by external works of piety—the perfumed massage and kissing of His feet! He is God in flesh and looked right into her heart.

    Godly sorrow of the heart brings repentance and leaves no regret of past sexual adventures. Inward repentance is always matched with the external works that befit repentance.

    For me, the most beautiful work of hers was in giving up the expensive perfume! She was so satiated with the love of Jesus that she no longer needed that perfume to seduce, attract and earn her bread!

    The woman’s works convincingly speaks of a changed life. Those are the works of a complete conversion and that is the faith which ultimately saves (Luke 7:50) and gives us a life of lasting meaning!

  54. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 24, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Anna,

    After Stacy’s comment about someone thinking they were “less tainted” than me,I had a look back at the posts and could not see any such remark. Thank you for clarifying that it was you as I did not read it that way and you did not mean it that way. lol

    About the “sin” of homosexuality!
    Now this is a dificult one because, from outside it is seen as just an imoral way of life (which it is), but unlike say adultery or fornication that can be put right by the two concerned getting married and becoming one flesh, there is no way out.
    A Homosexual has the same desires and feelings as any so called “normal” person, only they are for the same sex and not the opposite as intended by God.
    So therefore there is something wrong in either the physical or emotional make up of the person that means they cannot act as God planned. Now many gay people who love Jesus end up as celibate because there is no other choice if they want to live a “godly” life.
    It is a very difficult “sin” as you said, because unlike stealing etc. you are dealing with a fundimental lust of the flesh and there is no place in God’s word that allows for it, like marraige etc.
    So I am stuck in a place that causes great distress for me and, apart from deliverence from this state, there is no way out.
    This is my “thorn in the flesh” litteraly.
    And yes, I have prayed about it since I knew Jesus at 16. I have come to terms with it as far as the world is concerned. Lots of hate towards me as a gay person, but at least I am open and honest and people respect that. Not so 40 years ago when I was ashamed of being me and, if not for Jesus, would have killed myself as many gay teenagers do.
    When Jesus is not Lord in my life I turn to drink as the only way to deaden the pain.
    So you see in some ways I am already dead, so in my small way of thinking I might as well go all the way and be DEAD in CHRIST.
    So you see what was once a stumbling block to my relationship with Jesus is now becoming a blessing as it keeps me focussed on Christ and helps me take up my cross daily to follow Him.
    I am sure there are lots of “christians” who have “off the shelf” soundbite answers to all of this, but they are looking in and I am looking out, a very different perspective indeed.

    Bob

  55. Lively says:
    February 24, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    Did I misread? Sorry! I remember scrolling back to check the wording – I thought I read that someone had said she was better than you – I am really sorry for the confusion. My misread made me angry (the good kind of angry) that someone was so ugly to one of my own here. I get a knot in my stomach when I come across people who think they are better than others.

  56. saled says:
    February 24, 2010 at 9:36 pm

    The quotes that Mart used said that St. Augustine called to mind his past foulness for the purpose of coming to love God more. I don’t like this. This doesn’t make sense to me. I like Philippians 3:13 and try to forget the past.

    But then Mart gives us those beautiful quotes where St. Augustine lists such wonderful descriptions of God:”never new, never old, all renewing, bringing age upon the proud, . . . ever working yet at rest,” and on. Was it calling to mind his past sins that truly led him to these revelations?

    I will have to think about this. My sins were big and haunting. If dwelling on them would lead me to see God like St. Augustine, I guess it would be worth it. But I would rather take Paul’s advice to forget the past.

  57. Lively says:
    February 24, 2010 at 10:32 pm

    Saled – I don’t think you can forget the past, sleeping dogs eventually wake up. I think, at best, you can make peace with it and glory in the fact that you survived it and despite that past you’re now His child.

  58. poohpity says:
    February 24, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    Wow, Bob that was truly eye opening and thank you so very, very much for revealing the struggles you face. Before I began this journey with the Lord I was very sexually active although I did not began until I was 19 I made up for it until I was 35. I have remained celibate for going on 21 years now and I am 56. I do not know if I will ever get married again I think twice was enough and do not really want to after hearing all the struggles that married people go through. So both for different reasons we can be celibate together. It ain’t so bad after a while at first I thought I was going to go nuts, lol. Oh wait I am nuts, lol. :-) I think this was TMI.

  59. rxman says:
    February 24, 2010 at 10:48 pm

    Bubbles,

    Thanks for the feedback. I understand where you are coming from and am still trying to work out the “new man”thing myself. I will try to explain the way The Naked Gospel explains it and the way I understand it. He says that the old nature has been crucified and is dead. We still sin because we still battle our flesh and with Satan. But our heart, our inner being, our spirit is pure and righteous because God is there now and He cannot tolerate anything but 100% righteousness.

    Some would ask how does this connect with living out our faith in real life, or that we are positionally righteousness. I guess I would rather start my relationship with God from the standpoint of knowing that I am in Christ and He is in me. I am starting from the top and don’t have to “earn” any points with God. Yes, I will always have a battle with my flesh and with Satan, but to know that I am a new creation gives me comfort and power. It’s like having a big brother standing behind you when you get in a fight (kind of).

    As I said, I am still working some of this stuff out in my own head and heart. Really, I would refer you to The Naked Gospel by Andrew Farley. He says it much clearer than I. He says in the beginning of his book that we have to unlearn a lot of what we have been taught and I am finding this to be true. Not easy, but true.

    Again, thanks for the feedback and I, too, am not trying to be combative or negative. I appreciate honest feedback from people on this blog.

  60. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 25, 2010 at 2:08 am

    Deb,

    We all seem to be the same age on this blog.
    you, me, Steve, Stacy etc.
    I am 56 going on 57 om May 8th.
    Seems we are at the age of reflection and consolidation as St Augustine must have been.
    I get a little enyvious when I see a young teenage Christian full of life and passion for Jesus, then I reallize I was that person once and had the chance to do great things for God, but “life” and sin got in the way.
    I was reading what Saled said and don’t really agree that dwelling on past sins do us any good at all.
    We are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, that means letting go of the past.
    We must always remember where we came from lest we boast in our own achievments, but it is Christ and Him alone who bought us to this new place.
    Yes I said “bought” and not “brought” as that is what He did by His sacrifice.
    He bought us out of slavery and brought us into yhe promised land.
    Amen!

  61. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 25, 2010 at 2:33 am

    Bob, I am so touched by your story.

    Know this, you are not alone. Everyone whether homosexual or not faces temptations due to lust of the flesh. Marriage is not the solution to adultery if it involves extra-marital relationships. Besides, one can be happily married and still entertain adulterous thoughts about the opposite gender. So, gay or normal the Biblical solution for all mankind is self-control!

    Self control does not mean to suppress my desires and feelings but as Paul said it is to discipline my body and bring it into subjection 1 Cor 9. It means we should have control over the needs of our flesh and not the other way around.

    To exercise self control is easier said than done especially while living in this sex-obsessed world. Also, this cannot be accepted by all especially if one chooses to follow Jesus around the fringes of the crowd. It is good to never forget, narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life.

    Bob, since you mentioned about taking up the cross daily to follow Him, I am thinking you desire to become His disciple. Practically speaking, whenever I face such struggles of the flesh, it helps me to picture myself in the shoes of one of the disciples.

    So, in your case it is what would Peter do, if he was a homosexual? Peter did deny the Lord 3 times but that was before he had received the Holy Spirit. For Peter and all of us His disciples, the time we have on this Earth is very short and there is much work that needs to be done for the Lord.

    The million dollar question is: is it possible to exercise self control? The answer is yes, only by the power of the Holy Spirit! We cannot do this by our own efforts but as always it is the grace of God that teaches us to live self-controlled lives Titus 2:11-12. If it works for the vilest sinner like me, it should work for you too!

    Therefore, even those of us that have spouses are urged to live as if we had none 1 Cor 7… to stay focused on the Lord’s work and to be devoted to Him in both body and spirit. Jesus Himself said that some who are perfectly capable of sexual intimacy actually choose to abstain from marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

    Personally, I know of a wonderful woman of God who has devoted herself to serve in the house of God despite her desires and feelings. She is in her nineties and is still going strong. So, instead of feeling stuck in a place, you may think of homosexuality as His gift and use it for God’s Kingdom.

    As I had suggested earlier, you alone are in the best position to reach out to struggling gay teenagers. And who knows but that God has brought you to this unique position for such a work as this?

    And no, this is not to provide “off the shelf” sound bite answers:) because whatever I share here on this blog is out of a deep conviction born out of my own personal experiences and those of others in my family and friends at church. With much love and prayers… also been praying for your job interviews….

  62. Anna777 says:
    February 25, 2010 at 5:34 am

    Daisymarygoldr – You said “You may think of Homosexuality as a gift …” Homosexuality is not a gift. It is a sin. I have quoted this scripture recently, but for convenience, will post it here again from James 1: v 13:

    13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

    Victory over sin is a gift from God.

    It is my belief that to tell a Christian Brother (Bob) that he “is in the best position to reach out to struggling gay teenagers.” is, in my opinion unhealthy advice. That’s like telling someone who is a child abuser they should open a day care. The Bible says we are to flee from sin not run back into it.

    Bob – Thank you. I am glad you read it my recent post and understood it as it was intended. If I am saying too much about this please just tell me to zip my lips! I feel like I need to tell you this. I hope I will make sense! When I read your most recent post, where you truly shared from your heart, I knew I needed to pass this on to you.

    My daughter recently revealed to me that she is Homosexual. As a mother, I have to tell you, it broke my heart. I was devastated. I listened to every show I could find on the subject, I read books, I did research on the internet. I tormented my self trying to find out “How I made my child homosexual”. Then I went back in time and thought of what I did when I was pregnant with her that might of caused it. Was it because I was very very ill just before I got pregnant with her? Did I eat too many candy bars? Not enough pickles? I went through everything. I would wake up in the morning and cry out to God and weep and cry some more. Then I got out of bed and did it all again. It was a rat race.

    One day, God spoke to my heart in a way I will never forget. I was crying out to God “Why this?” “Why is my daughter homosexual”? I felt like I had totally let her down and I was the cause. How egocentric is that? God gently whispered to my Spirit – “Sin”. She is embracing this life style because of sin. She wasn’t “born this way” She has embraced this particular form of sin.” Just as I had embraced various forms of sin in my life at one time, that’s what she is doing now. Here I thought there was some great formula I was going to discover to find my answer. The I realized that , once again, the answer is Jesus. When we can identify the fact that God did not “make us sinful” , it was mankind that made the choice! We can focus on believing and claiming the deliverance at the cross.

    I remember engaging in the practice of alcohol therapy. Then one day, as you slowly start to emerge from the incredible feeling of death, (AKA “The morning after” you realize that you just can’t drink enough to kill the pain! There is not enough alcohol in the world to do that! It’s only Jesus who can remove that pain.

    You, my friend, are not damaged goods. We are living for the kingdom right now! God promises us that he will deliver us from temptation if we call on him. I know that works because he’s done it for me so many times. And sometimes I had to pray that he would put the desire in my heart to pray for deliverance from the sin and he did it! How cool is that? And after a while, he makes the temptation lose it’s grip and slowly you realize that You have been delivered!

    So now I know exactly what to do for my daughter who is so lost in this sin right now. Pray for her the same way I will pray for my friend who is holding hatred in her heart for her parents (her admission – not mine). Because prayer changes things, and the power of sin was broken at the cross!

    I was a 9-1-1 dispatcher. We had “Plans” for possible scenarios that might happen. In those plans were specific instructions on how to deal with certain situations. We needed to know ahead of time what we would do when we “got that call” Nothing good comes from making potentially life changing decisions in the heat of the moment. As a believer, wouldn’t it seem prudent to ask God to help you develop a plan so when you get “that call” you don’t react based on feelings. You step confidently up to it and through the power of the Holy Spirit, you start working the plan God gave you. And slowly by being faithful, you have victory.

    My prayers are with you brother!

    Stacy – Please don’t worry about it! I have misread things many times! I love that you so eagerly came to the defense of your Christian family!

    Anna

  63. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 25, 2010 at 6:23 am

    Daisy,

    Thanks for what you said. God told me when I was in my 20’s that I would be able to help gay people and that has been reafirmed through my church just recently and again through yourself.
    I was anti gay in my 20’s & 30’s as I had not yet “come out” and admitted my sexuality, but now I am comfortable with it and have given it to Jesus, as you sensed it is what keeps my feet on the ground, together with a lack of money. lol

    Anna,
    I am glad your daughter was able to talk to you about her “gayness”, it took great courage and will be such a burden lifted from her.
    Please don’t regard her lifestyle as a sin, as she has no choice in this matter. Yes she has a choice as to whether to have sex or not, but she cannot change who she is no more than a down syndrome person can stop being down syndrome person or someone born with ceribal pulsy can get over that. Only direct intervention by God in either healing or deliverance can change a persons fundamental make up.
    She will not sudenly see the light and become “normal” no more than a cat can become a dog.
    Let her be and love her just the same and everything will be fine.
    Preach to her and you will loose her.
    Love her, just as she is, and she will be with you and Jesus forever.

    Bob

  64. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 25, 2010 at 6:35 am

    Anna

    We would all agree that something like ceribal pulsy is caused by sin but the person with it does not embrace it as one would embrase sin, he or she has to learn to live with the condition.
    Likewise with a gay man or lesbian.

    Bob

  65. Lively says:
    February 25, 2010 at 7:42 am

    Hehe, Bob – I’m a mere infant compared to you geezers! 41 next month :-)

  66. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 25, 2010 at 8:00 am

    Whoops!

    Sorry Stacy, you obviously have a wise head on young shoulders.

    ;-)

  67. bubbles says:
    February 25, 2010 at 9:57 am

    rxman,
    Thank you so much for your kindness.

    p.s. the first day of spring: March 21, or is it the 2oth?? :}

  68. Lively says:
    February 25, 2010 at 10:10 am

    March 21, Bubbles. It’s the vernal equinox :-0 It’s also my Mom’s birthday.

  69. Lively says:
    February 25, 2010 at 10:13 am

    @bob – I was razzing you a bit – people almost always misguess my age online – and it is usually a good 10-20 years older than I am. In real life, they often guess younger lol I hated it when I was in my teens but love it now.

  70. mjday says:
    February 25, 2010 at 10:19 am

    To Bob and others, your honest posts have been a mind-expanding experience for me on the subject of homosexuality.

    My whole adult life I have struggled with depression. I have finally quit trying to figure out whether it was caused genetically or by my own decisions. I have learned to live with it.

    Paul boasts about his weaknesses in 2 Corintians 11. It’s not in our human strengths, but our weaknesses that we are useful to God – if we will allow it. When asked why the blind man was that way, Jesus said it was for the glory of God.

    A challenging idea for me to absorb.

  71. poohpity says:
    February 25, 2010 at 10:41 am

    Hey Bob, Steve is way, way older than us. He is 62 I believe. When he reads this he will laugh. Yes I believe the struggles we go through are to help others in the same predicament. Unlike pedophilia the thought of helping children would be like putting someone in the middle of their temptation, how silly that statement was.

    Bob I hate to tell you there is no retirement age in the kingdom of God. He uses me all the time it just takes me a moment to get there, lol. Getting on my hands and knees to do something that would however be an impossibility and probably the funniest sight to see the getting down and getting up. Oh my goodness I am just cracking up thinking about it.

  72. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 25, 2010 at 11:17 am

    Yes Deb, I gatthered Steve was a realy realy old man. lol
    I just wanted him to feel included, stuck up there in the mountains in all that snow.

    As for temptation! no different to a man or woman working in, what you call a high school, must be loads of temptation and opertunity to sin, but people cope.

    One of the fruits of the Spirit is self control, and if we are dead to self then …………
    does not matter what type of sin is your hangup, We just leave the baggage with God and put on the new man,
    Jesus Himself.

    Bob

  73. kingsdaughter says:
    February 25, 2010 at 11:30 am

    Bob…you are loved, my friend. I thank you for sharing your life’s struggles. A wise counselor told me something recently during my need for answers about my son’s suicide…he explained to me about the hardwired parts of our individual make-up. He did not use homosexuality as his example but things like depression and certain learning disabilities…the things we are predisposed to by chemical imbalance and such. It helped me so very much to have a clearer understanding, although not in a complete way…of the diagnosis of my son, in hindsight. There was a small measure of comfort in knowing this.

    I believe sin is “hardwired” into us…we will always struggle, even as Believers. It is the awareness of the sin that helps us to conquer it. I have known homosexuals who live a life of abstinence…because it is the act itself that is the sin. They say that after their conversion to Christianity and living up to Christ likeness they still struggle but do not yield to the temptation. I guess it comes down to the self-discipline we all have to exercise in the weakness of our lives. Some are weak and some are strong.

    Dear Friends: Please keep my family in your prayers. March 6th is the anniversary of our son’s death. These weeks leading up to it are not good ones.

    dale,

    ps. I am 55.

  74. kingsdaughter says:
    February 25, 2010 at 11:41 am

    Anna, I also went back to my pregnancy, even questioning the formula, the foods, I had also been on Nembutal (ignorantly trusting my dr.) the last past of my pregnancy for sleep…all throughout my son’s life..even his football playing which was from 7yrs. until adulthood..did he hit his head too hard?….WHAT HAPPENED? ….in short…LIFE.

    My husband and I also divorced for 5 minutes (really 5 months) stupid move. We have been married for 38 yrs. now but those 5 mos. haunt me and how it may have marked my children, although all 3 of them have denied that it did. I have only felt this way since Brandon’s death. We are our own worst enemies and suffer the guilt when things happen that we have no real answers for except to say, we all deal with the sin that is here to stay until Jesus returns and cast Satan and those who reject Christ…into Hell.

  75. poohpity says:
    February 25, 2010 at 11:42 am

    Old woman!! :-) Counseling is very, very good. I wish more people realized the need for it. I just sent my application to the University to get my Master’s in Counseling and hope I am accepted.

    Well by the time I am sixty I will be able to hang my shingle out. Better late than never I always say. :-0

  76. Godmakesmeable says:
    February 25, 2010 at 11:50 am

    Somehow, I’m hoping that we will be mutually encouraged by what I’m trying to say.

    1 Cor 9:22 says:
    22 When I am with those who are weak, I share their weakness, for I want to bring the weak to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone, doing everything I can to save some. 23 I do everything to spread the Good News and share in its blessings.
    24 Don’t you realize that in a race everyone runs, but only one person gets the prize? So run to win! 25 All athletes are disciplined in their training. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize. 26 So I run with purpose in every step. I am not just shadowboxing. 27 I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified. (The New Living Translation)

    I recognize this quality in what you have said, Bob. I know that I, myself am no longer a “baby” christian. A toddler perhaps, with lapses where I want to revert to babyhood. What I really want is not freedom from the consequences of my sins (my relationship with Jesus is my freedom), but freedom to help others without being “disqualified”.

    This all makes sense to me until I walk into a physical church. It makes me dizzy. There are too many contrasts and I look all wrong to everyone I come in contact with– perhaps it has already disqualified me, or perhaps it is proof that I am truly “dead” in Christ. Like a thorn in the flesh.

    I feel like I can’t share these “struggles” in churchgroups because I feel disqualified by the circumstances of my “natural” relationships- that my perspective (looking out from my sin) rather than into my sin would confuse babies. Though I don’t think there is anyone besides Christ who will truly understand what I am. (myself included)- I long for mutual encouragement though.

    Romans 1:12 says

    12 When we get together, I want to encourage you in your faith, but I also want to be encouraged by yours.

    Physical “church” confuses me because this is not possible unless everyone is living in the spirit. This is where my “lonliness” comes from – and also where the finish line was moved from my “sight” after realizing these things– a discouragement, but only temporary— as physical death is the only true “finish line” (other than Christ’s return). What I am saying is that God has disciplined me harshly- he would not have unless he loved me, this proof to me that I am in fact a child of God.

    Romans 8 says:

    Life in the Spirit
    1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 And because you belong to him, the power[a] of the life-giving Spirit has freed you[b] from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.[c] So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.

    5 Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. 6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. 8 That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

    9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) 10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life[d] because you have been made right with God. 11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.

    Here is my “struggle” with participating in “physical church”: I am married to a dead man. (not controlled by the spirit) He goes to church and comes to the meetings, but he will not accept it. He does not DO what he HEARS. I also have a struggle with understanding submission and authority and being a woman. Everything is so upside down in a relationship like this. You look false to everyone on the outside, but on the inside you know God is holding you… and being patient with those who don’t believe… yet. I relate so much to the shepherd and the watchmen. If it weren’t for this I would not relate to Christ the way I am able to- so in a way it fills me with joy that I share in Him. I feel disqualified from the physical church—-should I? I look so “off” to everyone. I want “a little bit more” but its not a struggle with my “natural” self.

    This is me. I don’t know what to do with me. I trust God though. Yet I long for “fellowship– with other believers”. I feel responsible to everyone that does not believe- and in my circumstances it has been pretty much everyone I come accross and spend time with. Everyone I have known and everyone I meet. What I really want another believer’s perspective on is: Is my disqualification struggle in church and in finding “Christian friends” a lie or is it a consequence of my particular marriage to “sin”?

    The Future Glory
    18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. 19 For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. 22 For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children,[j] including the new bodies he has promised us. 24 We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don’t need to hope[k] for it. 25 But if we look forward to something we don’t yet have, we must wait patiently and confidently.)

    26 And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don’t know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. 27 And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers[l] in harmony with God’s own will. 28 And we know that God causes everything to work together[m] for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. 29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

    This encourages me. Christ encourages me.

    1 John 5
    Faith in the Son of God
    1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

    6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

    Nothing Can Separate Us from God’s Love
    31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.

    35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”[n]) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

    38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[o] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    AMEN.

  77. kingsdaughter says:
    February 25, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    “Godmakesmeable” ~ the answer to your dilemma is in your screen name.

    I have been encouraged in your affirming scriptures. You seem to answer your own questions. Church can be intimidating to those who think it is a place for the “prefect” Christians. To me, it is a hospital for the soul… We know the fundamentals of its purpose but the “unchurched” have judged out of ignorance. The “baby” Christians will come to understanding as they move into more maturity. I understand about feeling judged by church groups and the fear that I may disclose too much info…all about me or my family..our situations. I have stepped back from them for that reason in the past. Having children in such a public “perfect” place was a truly humbling experience…since I did not raise perfect children as the most imperfect parent on the planet. I am guarded by being “out there”…exposing my sinful nature. It is refreshing to hide behind this format..this medium of blogging. I laugh at the idea of “hiding” …because God has His own blog!

    I understand about submission and the instructions in the Bible to wives and husbands….for most of my married life, I have been the “spiritual head of my household”…I am not boasting…I am just saying that I would rather my husband accepted the responsibility that was assigned to him by God. There was such a weight on me alone…my husband accepted Christ but did not live it…he did not go to church with us on a regular basis until the kids were raised and gone.

    If we matched everyone’s “hidden” lives NONE of us would feel “good enough” to be at church/SS/ etc…

    I pray that you will be “able”….perhaps you are the illustration in your husband’s life of how to BE…

    Pooh~ What an admirable career path you have chosen for when you “grow up”…young lady! ;) Let me know when you hang out that shingle.

  78. Anna777 says:
    February 25, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    Bob –

    Thank you so much for your response to my comment. I’m learning quite a bit from these postings. I appreciate your advice on “not preaching” to my daughter. I learned that about five years ago. She is an incredible daughter. Full of love and so helpful to so many people. I’ve always called her my “breath of fresh air” because she brings so much fun to every situation. As you might guess, I pray for her constantly. I will, however, always stand up for my beliefs. I will never “tweak” my beliefs to adjust to/accept/condone sin. To me, that would be the most cruel thing I could do to anyone. I would be deceiving them. I don’t “chase” her with my faith, I stand firm in it.

    I will still have to maintain my opinion that homosexuality is a sin (only when acted upon). The temptation is not the sin – it is giving in to the temptation. I
    Matthew 26:41: Jesus says “Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

    I believe that we are, because of our “sinful nature” born with certain inclinations to certain sins. As believers, however, we are new creatures in Christ Jesus, and our old sinful nature is not our identity.

    Can I ask you a question that I really wonder about? How does it benefit you to say that homosexuality is “hardwired” into the brain? I have often wondered that, and wonder what it really means to someone who says that. I ask you that question sincerely.

    Kingsdaughter – I am so sorry for the loss you have suffered. Satan is not called “the Accuser” for nothing! It was a great day for me when I learned that when ever I started having those thoughts of failure, hopelessness, guilt, that I could start identifying where they were coming from (Satan) and put on the armor of God. It is a powerful tool we have in are arsenal of fighting the enemy! Ideally, I claim that armor every morning and every night and through out the day …. but sometimes I forget! I have been praying for you. I don’t think there is any pain more painful than that of a Mother who feels she has failed her kids. I have known that pain. I’m so thankful to know that Jesus loves them more than we ever could. That’s a comfort.

    Poohpity – Can you clarify what you said (copied and pasted here for convenience) “Unlike pedophilia the thought of helping children would be like putting someone in the middle of their temptation, how silly that statement was.” I wasn’t sure what you meant by that. Thanks!

    I guess I’m just trying to say that we don’t have to live in despair in this world! We are conquerors through Christ! We don’t have to be downcast. Sure, we are in this world for now, but this world is not in us! We are citizens of a new world! Sin doesn’t have to control us now because, through our salvation in Christ, the power of sin is broken in our lives. We have a lot to offer those that are hurting and lost …. Salvation through Christ Jesus. He will help us live victoriously because of the fact that he has already won the battle on the cross.

    I am not saying anyone is “downcast” here, I’m just saying that while we live in this world we have the victory and life (Spirit) of Jesus living in us to help us prepare for our new life in Heaven.” There are a lot of people who need to see that joy and confidence that we have in Christ. They need to be with us in Heaven.

    These “issues” don’t need to divide us. We are all working for the same goal. I appreciate so much everyone on this blog. What a great strength.

    Anna

  79. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 25, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    Anna777, Thank you for your comment! Just to clarify my stand on homosexuality: any sexual relationship outside of marriage is a sin and marriage as ordained by God is between a man and a woman. Homosexuals are not sinners but the practice of homosexuality is a sin.

    Bob is celibate and is rightly equipped to use his homosexual orientation as a gift to encourage gay teenagers to do the same and follow Christ.
    You are right, God did not create homosexuals and neither did He create the sexually immoral or addicts. I am no Bible expert, but the following I do speak as an expert:

    Unlike physical disorders like blindness, homosexual orientation or any other behavior is not determined by our genes. These complex behaviors are consequences of our disobedience to God’s created natural order.

    In our attempts to better God’s perfect creation we have ignorantly exposed our minds and bodies to so many wrongs—in our abuse of alcohol, drugs, prescription meds, contraceptive pills, fertility treatments, hormone therapy, hormones released in our genetically modified food and every other sociological, psychological and emotional disorder that plague this modern society.

    When the truth of God is exchanged for a lie, God gave them over to shameful lusts.

    The good news is: God’s loving plan of salvation also includes homosexuals i.e. if they turn away from their sin and come back to God! Anna777, your daughter is in my prayers…

  80. Anna777 says:
    February 25, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    Thank you so much. I really appreciate that!

  81. poohpity says:
    February 25, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    What I meant was that a pedophile can help a pedophile to overcome, addicts help other addicts overcome, sex addicts help sex addicts overcome, homosexuals help homosexuals overcome and so on. To put a pedophile with children that is just down right silly. I would not put an alcoholic in a bar or in a liquor store that is just silly. There are those of us in this life that have experienced different struggles and trails as the bible says so that we will understand the issues of someone else going through those fires. It is called empathy and who better to help someone else overcome than one who has overcome.

    My feeling on it all should be that a sin is a sin and it would be nice no matter what the struggle is to help others overcome instead of putting folks into different categories of the type of sin they struggle with and learn that we all struggle with something but until the body realizes that they all sin they tend to alienate those who need the help of someone to come along side of them in their distress because of judgment about the severity or “degree” of the sin.

  82. poohpity says:
    February 25, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Godmakesmeable, do you believe those scriptures you referenced? If so then when anyone of us enters a sanctuary it becomes imperfect and God can only work with those who are willing to admit they need help.

  83. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 25, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    Anna, I never mentioned anything about Homosexuality being “hardwired”, that was Dale.
    I do know that I never fancied girls and started to like my school mates in a sexual way at about age 11, obviously not understanding the feelings ’till many years later.
    Since that realization life was one long game of hide and seek, trying to hide what I was feeling while also trying to be myself.
    Once you “come out” and realize no one really cares anyway, you get an amazing sense of freedom and almost like salvation, a great wheight is lifted from you.
    Unless God changes things I will always be who I am, a gay man, and I am proud of that.
    Like Daisy said it is not a sin to be homosexual as it is not a sin to be heteralsexual, it is what you do with it that makes it a sin or not in both cases.
    I have no control of my inner beings lusts and desires, but I do have control of my actions and will, so can choose. I do believe that my sexuality is normal to me, as most “out” gays do, and that it is natural for me. I could believe it was psycological if it were not for the fact it is also found in other species in nature and is therfore not a “lifestye choice”.
    So in some respects I agree with Daisy that it is “hardwired” in some way.

    Believe it or not my sexuality is not the most pressing thing in my life and no longer consumes my thoughts.

    Godmakesmeable.
    He is the vine and we are the branches! Graft yourself onto Him and be yourself in Him and He will do the rest.
    I understand how you feel about “church” remember lots of “christians” ware a mask when in church because they have secrets hidden in their hearts.
    But if we are in Him we are in The Light and nothing is hidden from him.
    Many years ago I used to think every spirit filled christian could see and know everything about me and it made me scared to let go and be myself.
    Just BE and HE will keep you from falling/failing

    Bob

  84. foreverblessed says:
    February 25, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    Since everybody has dark sides still in them, hiding, nobody need to be afraid to let go and show it.
    I remember last year during a prayer time at a christian conference, it was about deliverance, we were praying in a circle, 6 people or so. And the first woman started to pray, and she said, I need your prayers, because I am the worst of you all. And then she started to tell what bothered her. That she was harassed by terrible sexual thoughts during the night. She was unafraid to tell, it could not bother her what we would think about her. We started to pray for her, there was so much consideration, and love. Everybody in htat group now came out with their burdens. It was such a great prayer session, nobody looked down on the other for telling. It was the same time when in my mind terrible curses would come in. And so I felt free to tell about that and ask for prayer. What a better place church would be if there where more things like this going on. Because everybody has some sort of struggle. The person who was leading this conference had struggled with terrible depression for almost 20 years. He was delivered, after much prayer, and he did not condemn anybody, neither was he shocked by all the bad things christians can hide inside. Just like Jesus does, He wants us to come out with what bothers us. He wants us to deliver us.

    Some christians say that these things cannot happen to a christian, since Christ delivered us once for all. If that is so, then it is even worse for me. Because these curses were not mine, I did not want them. If they were I would have to feel even more terrible about it.
    So I did send them away, I said: out of my mind, in Jesus name! It took a while, a couple of weeks. For they kept coming back. But I just started to send them away again. Perseverance.

    And this verse is coming to me now: The one that is in you is greater then the one in the world 1John 4:4

    Godmakesmeable has all these beautifull verses out of the bible, believe them with all your heart. God will deliver you. He is busy delivering me from my migraine. But He takes a while, so as to let Christ grow in me a little stronger. Christ will grow and grow in us. And the bad side will grow smaller and smaller.
    The more we look to Jesus, the smaller the adversary becomes.

  85. foreverblessed says:
    February 25, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    For all of you, all the young ones, and I mean Bob too.
    1John 2:14
    I write to you, young man,
    because you are strong,
    and the word of God lives is you,
    and you have overcome the evil one.

  86. kingsdaughter says:
    February 25, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    So Daisy…you are saying that my son died because depression is a sin and he could have changed it had he been inclined to but since that didn’t happen…oh, well…that modern society is wandering in the desert? I can agree on some things but my GOODNESS…we would have to live …well, where I do not know but…you have named every conceivable thing under the sun that seems to be a punishment from God including our behavior!! It has been explained to me that depression is a chemical imbalance and my father who attempted suicide was also in a dark depression for most of his life….my son fought depression but it went basically undiagnosed. I was also told he had ADD as a child. Call me ignorant but I did not go to college to be a doctor or someone like yourself who seems to have all the answers. I turned to those doctors for treatment. I PRAYED for my family…my children…my grandchildren. My faith was not left out of this equation. It was basically unanswered by God…does this mean I did not believe enough? God did not intervene in the death of my son. Was he punished for his predisposition to depression…was he not faithful enough??

  87. Anna777 says:
    February 25, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    Pooh – Well I certainly agree with you on that! I know I made a comment to the effect that it would not be a good idea for a child abuser to run a day care. I just didn’t know where the pedophile thing came from.

    Bob – Sorry I “connected” you with that statement re: hardwired. (No pun intended.)
    You know I’m probably going to read your post several times tonight. It’s really making me think. I appreciate that. I am so thankful to have this forum to share thoughts/beliefs with so many believers. I’m starting to understand more now. Thank you for being willing to explain things to me.

    Kingsdaughter – When I read your last post, I wept. The pain I feel for you is incredible. I don’t have time to go back and read the post you are referring to right now. So I’m kind of speaking off the cuff right now but I felt like I had to say something. Depression is a medical condition. You are absolutely correct when you are referring to the chemical imbalances in the brain. It is no different than people who take thyroid medication. NEWS FLASH – God doesn’t hold a hammer in his hand waiting to crush us. It’s just the opposite. He loves us and he loved your son more than you even could. I can tell by your posts that you have a mother’s heart. If your son was hurting and came to you for help, you would never turn him away. Neither would God. We serve a loving forgiving God.

    I am holding you up in prayer my Sister. The Bible says that the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. We don’t understand everything right now, but we can pray that God will lift us up and surround him with his love and comfort in times like this. Your son was not punished for his predisposition to depression.

    We’ll understand it all someday. For now, we know that we serve a mighty God who loves us (and our children) more than we can imagine.

    My prayers are with you.

    Anna

  88. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 26, 2010 at 1:06 am

    Dale, looks like my comment has been misunderstood. Just scrolled back to read what I had written and no where it said “depression is a sin”. Praying for you and your family to be comforted by God’s peace during the weeks leading to March 6th…

  89. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 26, 2010 at 4:08 am

    Anna,
    I hope you had a good nights sleep, I did and it is now 9am for me.
    After reading your comment that you may read my posts several times tonight, I have also gone over the posts again.
    I want to thank you for your understanding and willingness to listen and not just hear my words.
    I really thought you would be like lots of “christians” and be very hard/right wing and almost racist in your opinions, but you are not like that at all. Maybe because you have such a strong relationship with your daughter and have experienced first hand the pain in a gay persons heart. I onced asked my gay friend, who I loved dearly and who was out and active at a very young age, “if I could do or give you anything you wanted what would it be.” He immediately said, with no hesitation, If I could have anything, I would want to be “straight”. That shocked me at the time, but You see there is not a gay person on this plannet that wants to be gay by choice, that is how I know it is not a “lifestyle” thing. We just get on with life as best we can. Anti gay doctrine in the church and in Islam etc. only forces people away from God. I have had it on my mind for about 10 years now to write a book or create a forum about this, yes I know it has been done before, but I feel, like has been said, that young gay people need to know that there is a way to God through Jesus that also includes them.
    Thanks Anna, as you have encouraged me this week, quite unexpected as I had other priorities.

    Bob

  90. foreverblessed says:
    February 26, 2010 at 4:50 am

    The passage that Godmakesmeable wrote, one of them is 1 John 5
    Just lately these verses have spoken to me:
    Whatever our sin, or our weaknesses, or our setbacks,
    whether it was our own fault, or that something ran in our family that we unknowingly picked up, or that we were innocent victims:
    in Christ we have overcome them, which also means, are ovecoming them.
    v4This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
    and how is that:
    v5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of GOd.
    and what happens then?
    v11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life.

    See then that faith in Jesus is a shield, and a powerful promise?
    Being harassed still by things out of the darkness does not mean we have not overcome the world, just keep fighting them. We are already part of the Kingdom of the Son He loves.

  91. foreverblessed says:
    February 26, 2010 at 6:04 am

    Dale, please take heart, I have heard many stories of people who have taken their own lives, and the people left behind that were encouraged by th Holy Spirit that their child is OK. One man in our church took his own life, his mother was devastated, more then the father was. After some time, I do not remember how long that was, bu she got a dream, and saw her son walking on the streets of gold, in the city of our God.
    I pray that you will be encouraged too.

  92. Godmakesmeable says:
    February 26, 2010 at 9:21 am

    Kingsdaughter: thank you for your prayers and what you said:
    I understand about submission and the instructions in the Bible to wives and husbands….for most of my married life, I have been the “spiritual head of my household”…I am not boasting…I am just saying that I would rather my husband accepted the responsibility that was assigned to him by God. There was such a weight on me alone…my husband accepted Christ but did not live it

    these are my feelings thank you for sharing this…

    Thanks, Bob. I have to keep reminding myself that Christ is the grafter. He himself is the healer. He knows where I am.

  93. mjday says:
    February 26, 2010 at 9:58 am

    Dale, once, in the months after our son died, my wife’s bell ringing group performed at a local reitirment home. As I sat listening, the husband of one of the other ringers came over and sat nearby. Suddenly the most beautiful and comforting spirit enveloped us and remained through the concert. The whole time no words were ever spoken.

    My prayer is that this spirit of peace will descend upon you and your loved ones during this difficult times. Phil 4:6-7

  94. kingsdaughter says:
    February 26, 2010 at 11:05 am

    Anna, Thank you for caring and knowing a mother’s heart. It is barely beating on most days which is hardly fair to the rest of my family. I must be reminded that God is a loving God repeatedly because at this time, I just don’t feel loved. I want this storm to end. For you to cry over another person’s pain is complete compassion. I wish I was on here writing about something else…anything but this. I do need the peace that passes all understanding.

    I know you do not know my whole story but briefly, our son’s death was ruled a suicide. Even though he was having marital problems, they had had them most of their 8 yrs. but he was always protective and hopeful. If it hadn’t been for a lousy investigation, we would probably have the concrete answers to these unending questions. Our son was in the company of his wife and best friend, not to mention his daughter was upstairs when he “did” this. He was left handed and the wound was on the right. There was no gunpowder residue test taken of the others who were present. This best friend and wife moved in together right after the memorial service…with no conscience. We are devastated and can’t come to terms with the idea our son would do this…but he was withdrawing from zoloft, an anti-depressant (can cause suicide)…another scenario for our questioning hearts…there is no end to this tragedy. With all of this…I wonder why God would allow this kind of spiritual and emotional torture to continue with me…and what about my son…what if he did do this..what torture he must have gone through. This is just some of this story…it goes on and on…

    Daisy ~ I may have misunderstood but I thought you were talking about our behaviors brought about things that we do not have control over..such as genetics…there is scientific proof that genetics can play a big role in certain behavioral problems. My apologies if I have misunderstood…thank you for prayers.

    Foreverblessed~ thank you for the encouragement. I have had 5 dreams already…but only one was comforting in the regard that my son is okay and in heaven. Other people have had good dreams about him in heaven. I do find that reassuring.

    Thank you mjday..my family is grateful for any peace that will come our way. I am glad you were able to feel that peace right after your son died. I have had moments of peace that come in waves…I gladly share it when it comes. Right now, I am reminded that my son was here this time last year..for just a little while longer…until the 6th.

  95. poohpity says:
    February 26, 2010 at 11:17 am

    I reread the topic to get a better understanding of Luke 12:48 “to whom much is given, much shall be required”. It seems to be saying when we know what is right to do and do not do it that is a greater sin than not knowing when something is wrong and doing it. See also James 4:17. The reason I was thinking about this is because I sit here on this computer and TALK, if I am sitting here talking and I know the bible so well then why am I not out serving as I was told to do. So knowing that Jesus told me to present the gospel into all the corners of the world, to give drink to those who are thirsty, food to the hungry, help the widows and orphans and to think of others better than myself is this then not a horrible sin too?

    I wonder what Augustine did after conversion if he just sat around talking about what happened to him or he went out and told others? He wrote a book. I also wonder if others struggle with the doing after conversion or they just sit in a pew and take, expecting others to do the work. Is this what is meant by to whom much is given, much is required?

  96. Lively says:
    February 26, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    kingsdaughter – you often say, “ruled as a suicide” why do accept “mans” word? Do you truly believe he took his own life? I don’t think you do.

    Men are fallible – they come to the wrong conclusion many times. When I was about 2-3 months pregnant I had this horrible feeling of pain, cramping and wetness. I ran to the bathroom and there was blood and I smelled the amniotic fluid. Terrified, I called my OB and then rushed to the ER. Eventually they got around to seeing me and they did an ultrasound. There was my baby, with a strong heartbeat and they said I had a “clot” that was causing the bleeding. I knew in my heart of hearts I had miscarried. I told the ER doc that, I told my doc that, I told the prenatal specialist I saw every week until I delivered that. They all said it was just a clot. They told me that they would have seen a twin on the first ultrasound; they told me they would have heard its heartbeat – they told me I was wrong. I had the absolute best of caregivers.

    When I delivered my son I told my OB that if I was right and it was a twin I needed to know. I was right, it wasn’t a clot. One of my babies is waiting for me in Heaven; I can’t wait to meet her.

    I’m telling you this story because it highlights that I knew the truth and I refused to let anyone sway me from it. I never wavered, though all the experts insisted I was wrong. It sounds as if you have reason to doubt that the “experts” are correct.

  97. kingsdaughter says:
    February 26, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    Pooh~ I think to whom much is given, much is required can be applied to many things, don’t you? But you make a good point. I hope that our blogs here serve some purpose. I know that I am not alone when I say that I have been comforted in finding this blog. The people here have reaffirmed my beliefs in a critical time. This is a ministry that I do believe God directed me to. How do you know that something you have said here hasn’t made a big impact(and it has)…in essence, this to me is a “book”..an autobiography in conversation of those here who have suffered and are suffering. I guess if you are convicted that it is a sin then so it is. But for me it is a blessing.

    I would venture to say that Augustine would have used a computer had it been available to him. Also, some of us experienced “conversion” or baptism while very young so our enthusiasm is probably not as it should be whereas a person who has been converted by an epiphany of sorts after claiming to be an atheist or false doctrine would probably be out exclaiming it all over the place. To me that is the person who can make the most impact…someone who rejected Christ boastfully, like Saul who killed believers only to turn from that and become Paul the Apostle. Augustine had a genuine conversion of a kind that prompted him to tell the world in writings that would live a long time.

  98. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 26, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    Dale,
    I don’t have a mothers heart and never will. I wan’t you to know that I care about you and love you, but will never fully understand the grief.
    As you know so well, Abba our Father knows exactly how you feel and has cried real tears for His son to.
    I wonder if He is reminded every passover of the heart wrenching grief He had to endure.
    Lean on Him because He is the only one who can sit with you, apart from your family, that knows the pain.
    Dale, I also want you to know that I have learnt so much from you and others on here.
    Deb has just reafirmed my thoughts about writing a book and I just want to reach out to stop others from taking their own lives. So many young men kill themselves because they can’t come to terms with their feelings or know how to reach out to God.
    It has taken me 40 years to be able to understand who I am in relation to God and that His love has no boundaries both in size and who He cares for.

    Bob xxx & a hug :-)

  99. poohpity says:
    February 26, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    I guess I just feel worthless through times when I am so discouraged with my physical being as it is when I am so used to being out doing. I am learning to be still right now and am frustrated with the process.

  100. Lively says:
    February 26, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    Pooh you said, “It seems to be saying when we know what is right to do and do not do it that is a greater sin than not knowing when something is wrong and doing it.”

    So, are you rethinking that there could be differences in “values” of sin? I used the word value because I can’t think of a better word, though it isn’t right either.

    I’ve been thinking about it a great deal since our earlier comments about it on this post. I’m not sure if there is a “right” answer. But, I’m leaning towards God holds us more accountable when we knowingly sin as opposed to “accidental” sin.

    Luke 12:47″That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. **48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.** From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

    Specifically verse 48 – the servant who didn’t know was still punished – we should all be accountable for our actions, even in the secular world this is true, ignorance of the law is no defense – but generally those that break the law in ignorance are not punished to the same level as those who do it on purpose.

    And, I also agree that this blog is serving and it is nourishing to many.

  101. kingsdaughter says:
    February 26, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    Bob~ thank you for the message…it goes right to my heart. As for a mother’s heart…when you “give birth” to that book you want to write, you will feel as accomplished as any mother has or should. It is a process much like the gestation period.

    Pooh~ I know about learning to “be still.” Like you said, it too, is a process. I hope you can get through this difficulty. I am here for you as well as our other “bible bloggers.”

    Love and encouragement for everyone,
    dale

  102. foreverblessed says:
    February 26, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    Thanks Dale, for your encouragement.

    Bob, do you know about the “true freedom trust” in Britain. They have a website too. I do not really know them, but in Holland there is a similar group, they want to help christians with homosexual feelings to follow Christ. To encourage them to start walking with Christ, and leave the way open for Jesus to show them the way. that’s why it is called “Our Way”, Onze Weg.
    This group does not stress the fact of healing, or sin, but to follow Christ*, and that the people will be open to change, because many have been helped, and delivered and became “straight”. Therefore the goverment withdrew their financial support, and they are now coping to survive. But this is better, since they are free to follow Christ, and not the guidance of the government.
    *Just like many people are not forced to stop smoking, but encouraged to look to Christ for guidance.

  103. foreverblessed says:
    February 26, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    Augustine talked about his mother, that she had warned him not to engage in sexual activity, and especially not with married women. He went his own way nevertheless. Later he said, that she was as an angel talking to him.
    So parents, do not despair. I try not to despair, seeing my children going their own way. Praying for them, and for many other children as well.

  104. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 26, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Dale, in saying “unlike physical disorders like blindness, homosexual orientation or any other complex behavior is not determined by our genes” I meant:

    Genes determine physical traits such as the color of our hair or the shape of our nose. Genetics does not trace behaviors to specific genes. If it did then we can easily identify a “crying gene” that makes us cry or a “laughing gene” that makes us to laugh! However, that does that mean there is no genetic basis to our behaviors.

    You have it right about chemical imbalance. An individual’s life experiences and environment influence the expression of several different genes to produce chemicals in the brain and the levels of these specific chemicals determine feelings of elations or depression.

    It is wrong to say, that God is the cause of our chemical imbalance. It does not make sense to say that God created us as homosexuals or sexually immoral people for the sole purpose of consigning us to the fires of hell!

    He has created us with perfect brains. It is our experiences and the environment in which we grow up with members of the family that influences the brain to actually reprogram itself.

    So, as we develop habits or repeat certain behaviors, the brain recognizes these as important and strengthens them, while allowing less unimportant details to fade and die. This causes chemical levels to develop positive or negative thought patterns, which then contributes to our overall behavioral disorders and substance or sexual addictions.

    If I am depressed and not happy, I do not just blame my genes. Science is full of hypothesis, theories and speculation… the doctors themselves do not know-it-all and it also does not help me know all the answers. The only thing I know is: God is in control of everything and is the only one who provides ‘the answer’: “Look to me, and be saved”

    And no, I did not learn this in College… our happiness and well being is dependent not on our behaviors and circumstances but on our personal relationships with God. “Happy is that people, whose God is the Lord.”!

    Just some of my happy Friday thoughts…

  105. poohpity says:
    February 26, 2010 at 5:03 pm

    No I was not saying there are any different “values” to sin. I believe the bible is saying if we “know the right things to do it is our responsibility to do them. It is like being an “arm chair quarter back” we talk a good talk but we do not walk the talk that is a great responsibility. In the context also of a lot of talk and no action. When we profess our faith to sit back and call down fire on those we may think are not living a righteous life when we have to keep an eye on our own behaviors. Did I explain this right?

    I went and got a second opinion on my leg today and the doctor said that my new replacement is loose and needs a revision after only a year of service. He was baffled as to why. But while I was at the doc office someone asked for a bible so another bible was put into the hands of hopefully a soon to be new believer. Yea, Yea!!!!!Along with directions to a church and my phone number. Yea !! who said He can not use us wherever we are, surely that wasn’t me. :-) LOL!!!

  106. poohpity says:
    February 26, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    I will tell you what, Steve’s wife just sent me pictures of the snow there and they are overwhelmed in footage. Can you say cabin fever? There was a drift on their back porch that must have been 10 foot tall or taller. Wow they are getting pelted. Steve usually takes Matt out every weekend for breakfast and it has been a long time since they have been able to go and that is the only time Matt can get out. My thoughts and prayers are with your family and community.

  107. Lively says:
    February 26, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Pooh – Yup, I understand what you’re saying. I’m working through some understanding – my thoughts are circular at this point – do you know what I mean?

    Isn’t it great when He works through us? Sounds like it couldn’t have been a better day for it for you :-)

  108. Lively says:
    February 26, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    I knew they were still getting pounded – and there is talk of another really big storm around March 2-4. Might be another record breaker for us, too.

  109. poohpity says:
    February 26, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    I just added my name to the beenthinking facebook. So cool!! Not to be confused with the cool or should I say colder weather you guys are having.

    If any of you wants to visit here in AZ to get out of the snow got an open bedroom and your welcome to stay awhile.

  110. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 26, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    foreverblessed,
    Thanks for the info. I will look them up and maybe that is a good plan for me to get invovled in such an organization.

    Daisy, you said….
    “It does not make sense to say that God created us as homosexuals or sexually immoral people for the sole purpose of consigning us to the fires of hell!”

    Being homosexual does not make you sexually immoral, neither is it a sin.
    Being Heterosexual does not make you sexually immoral, neither is it a sin either!
    Both are types of people who can chose whether to be immoral or not.
    I do not perform immoral acts. Do you?

    Too many times it is assumed that gay people are permissive immoral creatures of the night.
    when in reality we are just ordinary folks living quit ordinary lives.

    Bob

  111. Anna777 says:
    February 26, 2010 at 11:49 pm

    Bob – I think I understand what you are saying! Am I hearing you correctly when I say that you believe that it is not a sin to be either a homosexual or a heterosexual – it’s what we do with our attraction/temptation for either one? You acknowledge that acting on your attraction/temptation is the sin just as it would be a sin for a heterosexual to commit adultery. I hope I’m getting it and I totally agree with that. So, for the sake of discussion, if God totally changed the attraction you have for the same sex and you slowly started to be attracted to the opposite sex, you would be good with that? You are not defending the sin of practicing homosexuality, just as I would never defend the sin of adultery because God does give us a way out of our temptation which is calling on his name to help us withstand the temptation. I hope I’m understanding the intent of what you said. Thank you Bob so much.

    Don’t you just wish that we could do away with all the labels? I feel badly that my writing has led you to think that I am “Very hard, right wing, and almost racist in my opinions. Nothing could be further from the truth. My passion for justice for the down trodden, mercy for the hurting, etc. is not because of any political beliefs. It is because of what Jesus did for me on the cross and I desire to share his love and mercy with those who are still tormented by a world that has so much injustice, hatred, racism, etc. If I was just working towards that goal without my motivation being the true love of Christ, it would be an exercise in futility. So I join hands with you, and every other believer on this blog whose reason for living is Jesus. I’m starting to go to meetings for family members of people who are (they call it) practicing homosexuals.

    I must say, I really struggle with the label thing. I wouldn’t walk up to someone I didn’t know and say “Hi, I’m Anna a heterosexual”. Why is the term “homosexual” used as if it’s an identification label? I’ve never been introduced to anyone who, upon meeting, said to me “Hi….I’m so and so the glutton. I just wonder.

    I’m switching routes here mid-flight, but it is interesting how, because of our hope (salvation) in Christ we can still live in this world all the while enjoying the love and comfort of Christ (which motivates us to reach out to that lost hurting world? And all the while we have the joyful thought of the fact that we have a new home waiting for us in Heaven.

    Kingsdaughter – I have often struggled with the question of “Why” when things happen that seem so unfair. I know this is going to sound quite simple (that’s all I can do is simple!) but you know I just believe it’s because we live in a fallen world. I think of it almost as when I used to go deep sea fishing of the Oregon Coast. I would be in the boat, enjoying the beautiful clear sunny warm day. The sea so calm and restful. I could fish with ease. Then, all of the sudden, the wind started blowing, the waves got huge, and my focus went to the storm( i.e. the fallen world) and the direction of the entrance to the safe harbor (my home in heaven) because I KNEW that harbor was there! I was safely in a large fishing vessel( My new life in Christ). While I felt disappointment and yes, fear, because of how the seas were, I was safe in the boat. I trusted the skipper to handle the boat. I knew I didn’t have to skipper the boat, I just needed to stay in the boat. I knew that at some point, I would be headed safely through that harbor. I just kept fishing (caught one halibut and some rock cod). I hope that is helpful.

    Was it possible for the boat to get turned over by a wave? Yes, but even then I did not identify with the raging sea, I identified with the fact that I was on that boat, and it was taking me through the harbor. To take it one step further, if I had seen someone struggling in the water, I wouldn’t have told them “Sorry! I don’t do crazy ocean! I would have done my best while staying in the boat, to save them (throw them a “life ring”.

    I’ve had times after real trials when I’ve had to ask the Lord to let me feel his love and comfort, I am praying that God will let you know how much he loves you in a way that will be firmly imprinted on your heart.

    Anna

  112. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 27, 2010 at 2:33 am

    Bob, by homosexual I meant homosexual orientation. There is no gay gene or a straight immoral gene. God did not create gays and neither did He create people to commit sexually immoral acts. If He did, then He should not judge homosexual or heterosexual immoral acts as sin.

    God created us perfect as males and females. It is due to hormonal influences people lean towards homosexual orientation or sexual immorality. Hope this clarifies what I meant…

  113. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 27, 2010 at 4:45 am

    Anna,

    YES! YES! YES! Ureka!

    You have got it and have fully understood and I praise God!
    If you look back you will see I did not say you were hard or right wing, I said just the opposite.

    “I really thought you would be like lots of “christians” and be very hard/right wing and almost racist in your opinions, but you are not like that at all. Maybe because you have such a strong relationship with your daughter and have experienced first hand the pain in a gay persons heart.”

    Please be careful at this “self help” meeting for families etc. As it sounds as if they think gay people are ill or something. We are no more ill than someone who is pregnant, it is one of lifes conditions and is totally normal to the bearer.
    As was said above, it is how you live your life and not who you are that is the sin or not.
    I am so glad we have had the chance to chat about this and I hope we have both grown a bit in our understanding.
    Bob

  114. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 27, 2010 at 5:01 am

    Daisy

    You are making matters worse here by putting “Homosexual orientation” and “Immoral behaviour” under the same banner.
    “Immoral behaviour” is “Immoral behaviour” and is a lifestyle choice.
    Being gay or straight is a part of who you are. It chooses you, you do not choose it.
    You were born a woman, not by choice and have lived with that fact all your life.
    Anna has got it right in her first paragraph above.
    Bob

  115. Anna777 says:
    February 27, 2010 at 7:02 am

    Bob- Yahoo! I got it! So the fact that my daughter is a homosexual isn’t what makes me sad – it’s the fact that she is choosing the immoral choices. So I’m on track if I pray for healing for her (not to change from being Homosexual) but to stop the immoral behavior. Just like I’m praying for other family members (Heterosexual) who are also living immoral lives. Am I still getting it? I can’t wait to talk to my daughter!

    The group I’m going to doesn’t feel that way at all as far as thinking that people who are homosexual are “ill”. They believe, as you (and I!) believe that it’s what you do with the desire/temptation. The name of the group is named after the second book in the Bible (hint hint) It’s an international group. Very loving.

    Don’t you think if we could get beyond all of the labels and just listen to people with our ears and our hearts that it would open up communication in so many ways? Thanks for not thinking of me as a right wing hard case for sure!

    I just moved to a new town and I a having the hardest time finding a church. I think I must have a problem because I get so frustrated when I see churches that are doing great “ministries” but it seems that it’s to stroke their own ego. Then I tried one who, after a few months of getting to know people, found somethings out about my past and my daughter. They seemed so shocked as to how “people” can do certain things (homosexuality, drinking, etc.) I’m like “Why are you so shocked? When people are running from God and living out of his will for their lives, anything is possible! Right now I listen to all my old pastors sermons via the internet. He’s such a humble servant … a great teacher.

    Thanks again!

    Anna

  116. Anna777 says:
    February 27, 2010 at 7:05 am

    Daisymarygoldr: When I was living a sinful life/not a believer/hormones had nothing to do with my doing that. It was my choice because I didn’t care about anything or any one. I had a heart sick with sin.

    Anna

  117. Bob in Cornwall England says:
    February 27, 2010 at 9:20 am

    Anna,
    You are spot on.
    I will have a look at your groups website.
    Take care and say hello to your daughter for me.
    Bob
    I see there has been another earthquake, this time in Chili.

  118. daisymarygoldr says:
    February 28, 2010 at 2:06 am

    Bob, just wanted to reiterate what I had said before when you first introduced yourself as a Gay on this blog. You are a precious part of the body of Christ! I say this again because regardless of who you are Gay or straight, you have listened to the voice of the Holy Spirit and have wisely chosen to no longer commit homosexual acts. Be blessed and be faithful to the very end!

    Anna777, yes it is not hormones but sin. Sins which we commit and our children reap the consequences. Your daughter is in my daily prayers…

  119. poohpity says:
    February 28, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Yes it is the consequences of the first sin committed and we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. If any person says they are without sin then they call God a liar even those who are saved. So we have to be very careful when we speak of another’s sin because those who know better still do it but do not even recognize it. That is the great responsibility of those saved to be aware of their own sin and do not count themselves as better than anyone else because their sin is easy to see and others are within a persons heart. It is first a heart issue then it turns into a behavior.

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